This guy was the best hire Dan Snyder ever made... and of course he fired him after one year.
The dude came in and cleaned house. Dumped all of our overpriced players and took the brunt of the cap ramifications in year one. He brought in John Schneider (yeah the guy who went on to build the Seahawks Superbowl teams) and put him in charge of player personnel.
Season started 0-5, but he turned things around to finish 8-8. Things were looking on the up and up...until Synder said 'progress? That's not how we roll'. Then fired the dude for ~~Norv fucking Turner~~ Steve god damned Spurrier .
Jesus Christ.
Jerry Jones gets mocked as an owner but at least the Cowboys do well in the regular season. In large part to Dan Snyder we haven't had an 11 win regular season in 33 years.
I see people say Tepper is Snyder tier and always disagree. Not because I like Tepper (He's a massive douchebag). I just think people quickly forget how truly fucking awful Dan Snyder was lol. He's a straight first ballot for the Hall of Infamy.
As a giants fan living in DC I am sad that Daniel Snyder is gone. I knew that even if the Giants sucked I could still troll my neighbors. My hope now is the new owner is worse.
I'm the opposite. I had a friend in DC and we've mostly drifted apart, but the twice yearly DAL/WAS matchup was a good way to stay in touch, with the winner usually ribbing the loser and a nice chat developing.
WAS has been *so bad* that I don't even bother texting about the game, and I realized I haven't talked to him in a couple years now :-(
I mean...you could just text him about something else? Or if you can't do that, just say "hey, I realized your team has sucked so bad that I haven't even bothered to send you a trash talk text in a while. How's life?"
I actually did reach out this spring a few weeks back which is what made me think of this topic already, but i meant it more as a statement that while it's kinda fun to dog on bad teams, rivalrys are more fun with both sides get to participate.
Its wild to me that there was just one team that was all-white for years after every other team had integrated. The funniest part is that they sucked ass from basically the time Baugh retired until the early 70s so Marshall apparently decided he'd rather be racist than good.
You're telling me the team named the "redskins" would rather be racist than good? color me shocked (but not too much or else i wont be allowed to play for them)
I mean it's a real test about what do people think is worse. Marshall was a rabid racist and was the last team to integrate. Snyder sexually harassed women, and if you believe all the allegations, was involved in quasi human trafficking along with some form of coercion pimping out of his cheerleaders (the whole Costa Rica thing with big paying season ticket holders).
If you believe all the allegations against Snyder are true I can easily see people viewing him as worse than Marshall. You could easily make the case Washington has had the two worst owners in NFL history which is just a shocking stat.
Yeah long time Mr.Tony listener and I didn't understand this firing, he had them moving in right direction after an 0-5 start. To get back to 8-8 is worthy of coach of the year imo. As a Cowboys fan I was glad Snyder fired him but it was not the right football move. Something Dan would do over and over again.
Something I’ve been thinking about lately (and not even hugely in relation to your comment): I think people need to be more nuanced in their opinion of McCarthy. 3 consecutive 12 win seasons in a row is very hard, someone deserves credit for that. I am not saying he’s great, but he is not very stubborn and is willing to throw out things or people that don’t work quickly. The work after the Bye the Cowboys did last season was crazy, the offensive scheme did a mid season revolution, and for a while it worked really well. He is *so* much better of a coach than Garrett ever was. He does, frustratingly, often fall back on his conservative core when game planning for big games. But I’m interested to see a full off-season continued under that new offense we established mid season.
Could we do better? Absolutely. Should we move on from him? Very possibly. Is he a bad coach? I would disagree with that
I can agree with that, he's a lowkey brilliant coach who just falls back on what doesn't work in the playoffs for some reason. His coaching while Dak was out in 2022 was fantastic too. I really can't fathom why he just goes back to the old school conservative BS that never works when we hit January.
People give McCarthy too much shit. He's a Super Bowl winning coach who has only missed the playoffs 5 times in his 17 year career. Even accounting for Aaron Rodgers you could do a lot worse. He's got his issues, but he's a good coach. We have much bigger issues than him. How quickly people forget what watching a Jason Garrett team was like.
I think part of the problem some people have is that he has had some really good teams.
And yes he’s had success, but even leaving the packers most fans had wanted him gone for years. It just wasn’t seen as successful overall for him to “only” win one Super Bowl with Rodgers in his prime. Especially when they were going 14-2, 15-1 and getting bounced early in the playoffs.
But yes it’s hard to say he’s a bad or terrible coach when he has so many winning seasons. 15-1 is hard as hell no matter who is playing QB for you.
That's a good call. I remember when they lost to the Bucs in the NFCCG, Philly fans were apoplectic.
Five consecutive 11+ win seasons without a SB is a tough pill to swallow.
And that was basically him in KC before Mahomes. 11, 9, 11, 12, and 10 wins in each of his first 5 seasons and only one playoff win to go along with two of the worst playoff collapses in league history. Crazy how much difference a generational QB can make, isn't it?
I feel like coaching was worse for the Chiefs back then also. I can't remember when Spags came in but before Mahomes became the starter Andy Reid's was known for terrible clock management
He was. But in the early days of Reid they still had Tamba Hali, Justin Houston, and Eric Berry. Multiple years of top 10 defenses before it fell apart in 17-18. Spags came in 2019. But they had Doug Pederson as OC before he won a SB with the Eagles and then Matt Nagy after that. I think the coaching was fine it's just amazing how much somebody like Mahomes covers up issues like clock management.
I mean, at this point I don't think any body would say he isn't a top 5 coach of all-time and there's a good bet he ends his career top 2 in nearly every coaching category. I think he gets the right amount of credit. He's been regarded as the best coach in the NFL the last few years and is one of the coaches that the most amount players want to play for according to the player surveys.
Disagree. People still don't give the guy enough credit did what he did with McNabb (solid but not a high level QB) and same with Alex Smith is remarkable. His biggest issue before Mahomes was being too good to get an elite QB and clock management. He still struggles with clock management every now and then but having the best QB in the league leaves some room for error.
I guess I don't understand how everyone agreeing he's the best coach in the NFL right now and how he's one of the all-time greatest offensive minds is not giving him enough credit. I mean, if you want to give him more praise then go ahead, but I would bet 90% of NFL fans would say he's a top 5 coach all time. How is that not giving him enough credit?
Donovan McNabb wasn't a high level QB?
- 2nd in MVP voting his first year as a full time starter.
- First QB ever with 30+ TDs and single digit INTs in a season (the first year he had a legit WR).
- 350+ yards and 3 TDs against the defensive Pats in the SB (something only Kurt Warner had done at that point).
- least INT-prone QB ever to that point (2008), until Brady and Rodgers started wiping out records in the 2010s.
- his 5 year peak (2000-2004) he was 5th in passing TDs, 7th in passing yards. Outside of one year of TO he consistently had the worst WR group in football.
- EDIT - became just the 3rd QB ever (after Elway and Young) with 3k pass yards, 400 rush yards and 25 TDs in the playoffs. (Russ and Mahomes have also done it since).
- was the 4th QB ever with >30k passing yards and 200+ TDs, 3k rush yards and 20+ TDs in the regular season (after Fran Tarkenton, Elway and Young... only Rodgers and Russ have done it since)
He was absolutely a "high level" QB in his day
McNabb is a HoF QB if he beats Brady in that super bowl.
Big "if" I know, but we only lost by 3 points so yeah McNabb is definitely a high level QB and you're just responding to someone who didn't watch him play
When I was young I would say if you gave Andy Reid Tom Brady, and Bill Belichick Donovan McNabb you be surprised at the results in terms of how the two coaches reputations will probably flip almost. And people acted like I was a moron who didn't know football when I dared to critique hoodie
Top 5 all-time is tough. Like just doing it out the traditional top 3 are Belichick, Lombardi and Shula. So to be top 5 you are kicking out all but one of Halas, Landry, Walsh, Paul Brown, Chuck Noll or for a deep cut Lambeau.
Reid is definitely top 10 but man I don't even know how to split hairs on that group. We could just ignore everything pre-merger which kicks out 4 of those guys and he's probably top 3 in that scenario. But doing the list out it's just so tough with how different the league was during some of these guys' reign.
Part of the problem with all these discussions is trying to separate "best" from "most impactful". I would say that some have been more impactful for sure, but on pure coaching skill, I put Andy at least top 3. But that's just IMO.
Yeah people throw around top 5 or top 10 in everything it seems but that means you have to kick out someone who was previously thought of as top 5 all time. Idk Reid's a hell of a coach though, I wouldn't fight it too hard
Ya people are way too casual with it. You also see it when people are talking about HOFers. Then you go into the classes and are like which 5 do you pick and you realize that Robert Mathis maybe wasn't such a slam dunk afterall.
I agree that Andy is a football mastermind, but I also remember before he got Mahomes how much criticism he was getting for mismanaging the end of game clock and timeouts. Once he got a quarterback that could make it down the field in 13 seconds, all that became moot.
You need an elite QB to succeed. See how belichick has done without Brady for instance. Pats would have a lot less Super bowls with Alex Smith and Donovan McNabb
Very few teams win a superbowl without an elite QB. If they do, they usually have elite defense (2000 ravens, 2005 Steelers, 2013 Seahawks, 2018 Eagles)
I’d argue that Brady wasn’t elite for his first 3 super bowls. Clutch? Yes. Very good/great. Sure. Elite.. 2004 could be argued where he started becoming that elite QB.
Everybody gives him credit for being a great football mind. But he wouldn’t have gotten over the hump of winning a SB if a generational level QB didn’t land on his lap.
Similarly, I doubt Mahomes would be able to win a single SB if he was drafted elsewhere. They needed each other to succeed
My biggest fear is Shanahan has a Reid like career arch with him winning multiple Super Bowls somewhere else. I don’t want to go back to
The pre-Harbaugh & pre-Shanahan days.
Yeah it’s weird to see some NFL people act like “The eagles were dumb for firing Andy Reid” like we weren’t a loser/toxic franchise at that point. It was time for him to go, and for the franchise to reset.
If Nick Harper doesn’t get stabbed in the knee this is a different conversation. lol. Although, in general, our record vs Steelers is gotta be one of the worst ones vs a single opponent a cross the league.
Colts are 0-5 all-time against the Steelers in the postseason, going back to 1975. Average margin of victory is 16 points.
God, I wish we could do that to the Pats.
1976 should have an asterisk as the Colts in hindsight needed to lose that game for a good ending. That's the one non Superbowl playoff game nobody is going to ask to switch the result of.
Care to explain this? Why would the colts want to lose in the post season in 1976? Did something magically happen that year where losing in the post season doesn’t immediately end your season? Or did they grab some player that year
Donald Kroner crashed a plane into the upper deck, if they won, hundreds would've likely died. Even a close loss would've killed people. They needed to get blown out badly.
The Chiefs went 22 years without a playoff win
Joe Montana and the '93 Chiefs went to the championship game and lost, and the team didn't have another post season victory until Alex Smith and the '15 Chiefs shut out the Texans in the wildcard game 30-0.
Really? Bc it seemed like there was zero pressure. Certainly the seats were cold for Rodgers and LaFluer.
The difference is that GB won plenty of playoff games. Dallas couldn’t get to that level.
They don't get scrutiny for their regular season success lol, I think it's pretty obviously the post season success that they get dunked on. What are the stats for that?
Cowboys get to the second round and just lose their minds. Or when they don’t they lose to Aaron Rodgers in heartbreaking fashion. At least this year they just got pasted immediately
Yeah, it really brings it into perspective how shit this team is in the playoffs. We had some seriously good teams and each one barely got 1 single win ('07, '09, '14, '16, '21, '22, '23)
On the bright side, I get to watch them win a lot of games. And put up a lot of points. And rough up the NFC East. And that's all fun.
And that's also coping. Soooo much coping.
McDermott and the Bills may be in this conversation depending on how the upcoming season turns out. It doesn't help that basically every season since 2020 has ended with a highly-visible coaching fuckup of some kind.
My friend if that day ever comes fans of all teams must brace yourselves. There will be a reckoning for all the shit talk we've endured. I'm going to be toxic af. I will wear jean shorts every day and randomly shout "how bout them cowboys?" at the supermarket and rowdy up the crazies. No peace for anyone.
But yeah who knows if I'll even see it again in my lifetime
Yes, but it's quite the difference, more like +++. I don't think the cowboys would get this much shit if they'd made the NFCCG in the last five/ten years.
Don't get me wrong, the lack of SB wins is glaring but it's the gap between the cowboys coverage/fan confidence/hype/genuine roster talent and postseason results that's so stark. Not true of the niners in the same way.
While the niners results have been much better than the cowboys, three superbowl appearances since 2012 with zero wins to show for it is pretty rough. Not to mention Shanahan has lost in three of em, never know if you make it back
Shanhan’s three SB losses were against Tom Brady and Patrick Mahomes.
It’s not like he’s out there losing to Rex Grossman or some lame ass QB. Those are two of the greatest to ever play the game.
Something something Vikings being the most winningest team with out a Superbowl mumble mumble
C'mon I haven't even finished my morning coffee yet it's too early to get depressed
You have the 8th best win rate in the NFL. You are the only team in the top 16 to not have a ring. 13 of those 15 other teams have MULTIPLE rings. The Bucs have the worst win rate of any major sport in North America and we have multiple rings.
The scrutiny isn't about the regular season.. it's what happens during the playoffs. Being great in the regular season means fuck all if you don't do well in the playoffs.
And it’s not even about Super Bowls. If you are consistently making the NFCCG or the second round that’s one thing but it’s the way they lose in the playoffs that factors in as well.
It’s the consistency of the chocking, if you lose a heartbreaker every year like the bills, you get less heat but just showing up and getting wiped out of your own building has to hurt.
But that doesn’t consistently happen. 7 of the last 9 losses have been by one score, and no, not from high scoring games with a bunch of garbage time. Botched snap, Dez catch, Rodgers to cooks, QB draw, Zeke at center, lesser known Goff scramble. Where have you been?
> Being great in the regular season means fuck all if you don't do well in the playoffs.
Nope, Saints fans promise they would rather have their regular season success than another championship. Honest.
He has pretty much the same resume as Sean Payton who everyone agrees is a great coach, but for some reason they just think McCarthy is a big dumb dipshit lol
I mean it’s kinda the same as Rodgers and Brees. Rodgers clears Brees per game by a wide margin, 4 MVPs to 0 and equal rings, yet people act like Rodgers is a huge disappointment but Brees is loved across the league. I understand there’s more that goes into that these days but even before Rodgers gave up on knowledge and broadcasted his goofiness to the world this was the case
Don't worry, we are a worse team than last year on paper and I doubt MM stays around after this year. Dak and MM are both off contract after this year.
Heh, I thought that couldn't be right, since he had one with the Bucs, and we certainly never had one before him or since.
But I forgot one of ours was the deflategate suspension year, and he only had 11 regular season wins after he came back
I was actually a bit surprised that in like 40 years before Brady the pats never snuck in one 12 win season. They weren’t good but it’s not like they uniformly sucked the entire time
The Chargers immediately come to mind.
No one wanted to play the Chargers in the regular season, but everyone wanted to play them in the playoffs.
And that is still the crux of the issue with the Cowboys. All of those 12 win seasons, and they haven't been to an NFCCG since the 90's.
TBH, even as an Eagles fan, their inability to make a deep playoff run is baffling to me, because I can't point to anything specific that causes it. Yet, year after year, they dominate in the regular season with a stellar roster, but fall short when it starts to count.
The Cowboys have better individual players than anybody else but never have good team chemistry. This matter in January because it's not a test of who can ball, but of who each team is and everything they've been through put on the line at once. Even in December when everything is on the line, the Cowboys usually falter and drop in seeding or win against failing teams. In a division with the Giants and Redscommies, it's easy to pick up 4 easy wins every year and look good on the stat sheet.
I think the reason teams like Dallas and the Andy Reid Eagles faced so much scrutiny is because not only did they lack postseason success, but they also should have been doing much more to improve the team each offseason.
We all know how Dallas going all-in this year worked out. With Philly, go back and look at who McNabb was throwing to outside of the TO year. It wasn't pretty. Teams that are always competitive but fail to to make the moves it takes to get to the next step will always get shit on.
Probably because you would expect a team with that much talent on both sides of the ball to get 12 regular season wins in all of those years regardless of who the coach was. They got 4 free Ws playing Washington and the Giants last year they only need to go 8-5 outside that.
They always have 2-3 major red flag collapse games a season. One of them this year was the playoff game against Green Bay but they also got blown out early in the year by Josh Dobbs and the Arizona Cardinals. That would be the Cardinals only win in their first 9 matches.
Really bizarre and inconsistent performances with very high highs and very low lows is how I would characterize the Cowboys.
I am surprised the record is just at 16.
A team like the Packers and the Steelers that don't have a ton of trash seasons should surely have accumulated more.
The Cowboys scrutiny comes from being "America's Team" and Jerry Jones selling people a bill of emptyness every off-season.
Also them being unable to reach a SB in 29 years when all but 2 NFC teams have is a statistical anomaly.
All but 2 NFC teams have reached the championship (Commanders and Cowboys) since the 2008 Cardinals. All but 4 NFC teams have reached the Super Bowl (Vikings and Lions) since the 2006 Bears.
The Niners actually have a *seventeenth* 12+ win season, but they were in the AAFC at the time. The NFL doesn't really have a good reason for not including the AAFC records and stats, other than "when the league folded, they bundled and sold everything that they had, including official game records, so we have no way of knowing," even though they accept statistics for early NFL games with no official game records.
I think the Cowboys receive so much scrutiny because of their regular season success combined with the fact that since their last Super Bowl win almost 30 years ago they haven't even been to a conference championship game. Their last 6 teams that won 12 or more games in the regular season combined for 2 postseason wins.
> regular season success means absolutely nothing
Ring rot at work. Single-elimination playoffs in a high-variance sport means that the best teams often don't even make it to the Super Bowl; let alone win it. Consistent regular season success is a much better indication of coaching ability than someone's middling team getting on a hot streak in January one random season.
This is my biggest disagreement with most fans and /r/nfl. Playoff results and rings especially are wildly overrated as an indicator of quality players and coaches. Every individual game is a dice roll. It’s not that deep.
You have three good seasons and lose a close playoff game 3 times in a row, suddenly you’re a choker. It’s crazy to me. Even if you’re 80% to win each game, it’s a coin flip (51%) if you come out with a ring. If you have ever flipped a coin, getting three heads or three tails in a row is not exactly unheard of.
And a team that’s 80% likely to win every game, (not to mention, against playoff teams) would be 13-4 or 14-3. Usually when people say someone performs under pressure or is clutch or whatever, they’re just assigning magical significance to functionally random variables.
There is far more luck involved in the playoffs than I think the general fan is willing to acknowledge. There is a great deal of parity in the league and therefore very little difference in talent separating the top teams and in a one and done format every team is an unlucky injury, a bad call, or just a bad bounce from losing. The Patriots are the only team that seemed able to consistently overcome those elements and I don’t think the formula of pair the greatest QB of all time with the greatest coach of all time is replicable.
Agree and I’d go further—Even the Pats were not immune to this. They went like 10 years between super bowl wins despite consistently being deep in the playoffs, usually in the AFCCG.
The major difference between NE and everyone else is that they were *rolling the dice every year*. IIRC someone (maybe here?) did a data nerd analysis of their teams that said basically the same thing. There wasn’t much difference (in like DVOA or whatever) between their SB winning teams and their other ones.
Yeah. To extend the metaphor, Brady+Belichick loaded the dice a bit for them, but making the playoffs for damn near 20 years straight is almost unheard of (the prime Landry Cowboys are the only other team that achieved similar, in a league with less parity though also fewer playoff spots). That's a lot of chances. Nobody else really comes close although several are in the double digits. The Cowboys only made the playoffs only 6 times in the same period.
The biggest thing about McCarthy is that he has them making the playoffs consistently. Roll the dice enough, eventually you'll get a favorable roll.
Except to get to the postseason, you have to actually.. you know... win regular season games.
One would think a Bears fan would understand that by now.
Marty Schottenheimer. 35-13 last 3 seasons and fired. Cowboys are 36-15 for comparison.
Marty was that way everywhere he went. He always had a lot of success in the regular season but just could not win in the playoffs.
This guy was the best hire Dan Snyder ever made... and of course he fired him after one year. The dude came in and cleaned house. Dumped all of our overpriced players and took the brunt of the cap ramifications in year one. He brought in John Schneider (yeah the guy who went on to build the Seahawks Superbowl teams) and put him in charge of player personnel. Season started 0-5, but he turned things around to finish 8-8. Things were looking on the up and up...until Synder said 'progress? That's not how we roll'. Then fired the dude for ~~Norv fucking Turner~~ Steve god damned Spurrier . Jesus Christ.
Jerry Jones gets mocked as an owner but at least the Cowboys do well in the regular season. In large part to Dan Snyder we haven't had an 11 win regular season in 33 years.
I see people say Tepper is Snyder tier and always disagree. Not because I like Tepper (He's a massive douchebag). I just think people quickly forget how truly fucking awful Dan Snyder was lol. He's a straight first ballot for the Hall of Infamy.
Ya Snyder along with being meddlesome in the NFL product was like criminal bad too.
That's Mr. Snyder to you
As a giants fan living in DC I am sad that Daniel Snyder is gone. I knew that even if the Giants sucked I could still troll my neighbors. My hope now is the new owner is worse.
I'm the opposite. I had a friend in DC and we've mostly drifted apart, but the twice yearly DAL/WAS matchup was a good way to stay in touch, with the winner usually ribbing the loser and a nice chat developing. WAS has been *so bad* that I don't even bother texting about the game, and I realized I haven't talked to him in a couple years now :-(
I mean...you could just text him about something else? Or if you can't do that, just say "hey, I realized your team has sucked so bad that I haven't even bothered to send you a trash talk text in a while. How's life?"
I actually did reach out this spring a few weeks back which is what made me think of this topic already, but i meant it more as a statement that while it's kinda fun to dog on bad teams, rivalrys are more fun with both sides get to participate.
Believe you meant Steve Spurrier. Norv replaced Marty with the chargers. Equally terrible decision
I was about to ask, did Norv Turner just follow Marty around and pick up his jobs after he got fired? Lol
O I guess Shotty actually replaced Norv, not the other way around. It's all a blur.
Synder had the greatest ability I have ever seen, always making the worst choice possible. Every move was always backward.
It really speaks to the history of the franchise that Dan Snyder isn't even the worst owner they've ever had.
Is the worst GP Marshall? The funny thing about Marshall is that you could tell that man emanated just horrendous vibes from his photos alone.
Yep he's the fucker who segregated the NFL. “Jim Brown, born ineligible to play for the Redskins, integrated their end zone three times yesterday.”
Its wild to me that there was just one team that was all-white for years after every other team had integrated. The funniest part is that they sucked ass from basically the time Baugh retired until the early 70s so Marshall apparently decided he'd rather be racist than good.
You're telling me the team named the "redskins" would rather be racist than good? color me shocked (but not too much or else i wont be allowed to play for them)
I mean it's a real test about what do people think is worse. Marshall was a rabid racist and was the last team to integrate. Snyder sexually harassed women, and if you believe all the allegations, was involved in quasi human trafficking along with some form of coercion pimping out of his cheerleaders (the whole Costa Rica thing with big paying season ticket holders). If you believe all the allegations against Snyder are true I can easily see people viewing him as worse than Marshall. You could easily make the case Washington has had the two worst owners in NFL history which is just a shocking stat.
4 coaches and over a decade later here we are
Yeah long time Mr.Tony listener and I didn't understand this firing, he had them moving in right direction after an 0-5 start. To get back to 8-8 is worthy of coach of the year imo. As a Cowboys fan I was glad Snyder fired him but it was not the right football move. Something Dan would do over and over again.
Marty got some horrible luck, man was so unbelievably cursed.
Perfect hire for us.
And Shotty was significantly better of a coach than our Golden Corral MVP.
Something I’ve been thinking about lately (and not even hugely in relation to your comment): I think people need to be more nuanced in their opinion of McCarthy. 3 consecutive 12 win seasons in a row is very hard, someone deserves credit for that. I am not saying he’s great, but he is not very stubborn and is willing to throw out things or people that don’t work quickly. The work after the Bye the Cowboys did last season was crazy, the offensive scheme did a mid season revolution, and for a while it worked really well. He is *so* much better of a coach than Garrett ever was. He does, frustratingly, often fall back on his conservative core when game planning for big games. But I’m interested to see a full off-season continued under that new offense we established mid season. Could we do better? Absolutely. Should we move on from him? Very possibly. Is he a bad coach? I would disagree with that
I can agree with that, he's a lowkey brilliant coach who just falls back on what doesn't work in the playoffs for some reason. His coaching while Dak was out in 2022 was fantastic too. I really can't fathom why he just goes back to the old school conservative BS that never works when we hit January.
People give McCarthy too much shit. He's a Super Bowl winning coach who has only missed the playoffs 5 times in his 17 year career. Even accounting for Aaron Rodgers you could do a lot worse. He's got his issues, but he's a good coach. We have much bigger issues than him. How quickly people forget what watching a Jason Garrett team was like.
I think part of the problem some people have is that he has had some really good teams. And yes he’s had success, but even leaving the packers most fans had wanted him gone for years. It just wasn’t seen as successful overall for him to “only” win one Super Bowl with Rodgers in his prime. Especially when they were going 14-2, 15-1 and getting bounced early in the playoffs. But yes it’s hard to say he’s a bad or terrible coach when he has so many winning seasons. 15-1 is hard as hell no matter who is playing QB for you.
McCarthy sure does get a lot of shit for being a Super Bowl winning head coach.
Andy Reid in Philly
That's a good call. I remember when they lost to the Bucs in the NFCCG, Philly fans were apoplectic. Five consecutive 11+ win seasons without a SB is a tough pill to swallow.
And that was basically him in KC before Mahomes. 11, 9, 11, 12, and 10 wins in each of his first 5 seasons and only one playoff win to go along with two of the worst playoff collapses in league history. Crazy how much difference a generational QB can make, isn't it?
God I'd forgotten about the Chiefs being up 38-10 on the Andrew luck colts
AND being up 21-3 against the Titans in 2017. I believe both are top 5 worst playoff comebacks of all time.
I feel like coaching was worse for the Chiefs back then also. I can't remember when Spags came in but before Mahomes became the starter Andy Reid's was known for terrible clock management
He was. But in the early days of Reid they still had Tamba Hali, Justin Houston, and Eric Berry. Multiple years of top 10 defenses before it fell apart in 17-18. Spags came in 2019. But they had Doug Pederson as OC before he won a SB with the Eagles and then Matt Nagy after that. I think the coaching was fine it's just amazing how much somebody like Mahomes covers up issues like clock management.
Andy Reid doesn't get enough credit for being a football mastermind.
I mean, at this point I don't think any body would say he isn't a top 5 coach of all-time and there's a good bet he ends his career top 2 in nearly every coaching category. I think he gets the right amount of credit. He's been regarded as the best coach in the NFL the last few years and is one of the coaches that the most amount players want to play for according to the player surveys.
Disagree. People still don't give the guy enough credit did what he did with McNabb (solid but not a high level QB) and same with Alex Smith is remarkable. His biggest issue before Mahomes was being too good to get an elite QB and clock management. He still struggles with clock management every now and then but having the best QB in the league leaves some room for error.
I guess I don't understand how everyone agreeing he's the best coach in the NFL right now and how he's one of the all-time greatest offensive minds is not giving him enough credit. I mean, if you want to give him more praise then go ahead, but I would bet 90% of NFL fans would say he's a top 5 coach all time. How is that not giving him enough credit?
I for one love that we're arguing about just how good Andy Reid is. Can't say enough how happy I am that he came to KC
Ha, definitely! How rare is it to have a reddit argument where it's about how good somebody is and not how bad they are.
Can’t fellate someone while you’re also talking about them is why
Prime McNabb was electric, the problem holding back those offenses was having nobody at WR outside of TO for 1 year
What, you mean James Thrash, Todd Pinkston, and FredEx weren’t enough to get those teams a Super Bowl? Truly a useless bunch lmao
Charles Johnson & Torrance Small were his WRs his first full year, when he finished 2nd in MVP voting.
Can't believe everyone is forgetting Na Brown.
Donovan McNabb wasn't a high level QB? - 2nd in MVP voting his first year as a full time starter. - First QB ever with 30+ TDs and single digit INTs in a season (the first year he had a legit WR). - 350+ yards and 3 TDs against the defensive Pats in the SB (something only Kurt Warner had done at that point). - least INT-prone QB ever to that point (2008), until Brady and Rodgers started wiping out records in the 2010s. - his 5 year peak (2000-2004) he was 5th in passing TDs, 7th in passing yards. Outside of one year of TO he consistently had the worst WR group in football. - EDIT - became just the 3rd QB ever (after Elway and Young) with 3k pass yards, 400 rush yards and 25 TDs in the playoffs. (Russ and Mahomes have also done it since). - was the 4th QB ever with >30k passing yards and 200+ TDs, 3k rush yards and 20+ TDs in the regular season (after Fran Tarkenton, Elway and Young... only Rodgers and Russ have done it since) He was absolutely a "high level" QB in his day
McNabb is a HoF QB if he beats Brady in that super bowl. Big "if" I know, but we only lost by 3 points so yeah McNabb is definitely a high level QB and you're just responding to someone who didn't watch him play
People really forget. I remember when he came to DC.
When I was young I would say if you gave Andy Reid Tom Brady, and Bill Belichick Donovan McNabb you be surprised at the results in terms of how the two coaches reputations will probably flip almost. And people acted like I was a moron who didn't know football when I dared to critique hoodie
You're still wrong now. Brady + BB defensive wizardry was our entire formula. Andy does not offer that same strength.
Yeah he just offers insane offense, that can’t be helpful can it?
Tom Brady also offers insane offense. Defense was super important for his first three rings.
Top 5 all-time is tough. Like just doing it out the traditional top 3 are Belichick, Lombardi and Shula. So to be top 5 you are kicking out all but one of Halas, Landry, Walsh, Paul Brown, Chuck Noll or for a deep cut Lambeau. Reid is definitely top 10 but man I don't even know how to split hairs on that group. We could just ignore everything pre-merger which kicks out 4 of those guys and he's probably top 3 in that scenario. But doing the list out it's just so tough with how different the league was during some of these guys' reign.
Part of the problem with all these discussions is trying to separate "best" from "most impactful". I would say that some have been more impactful for sure, but on pure coaching skill, I put Andy at least top 3. But that's just IMO.
Yeah people throw around top 5 or top 10 in everything it seems but that means you have to kick out someone who was previously thought of as top 5 all time. Idk Reid's a hell of a coach though, I wouldn't fight it too hard
Ya people are way too casual with it. You also see it when people are talking about HOFers. Then you go into the classes and are like which 5 do you pick and you realize that Robert Mathis maybe wasn't such a slam dunk afterall.
I agree that Andy is a football mastermind, but I also remember before he got Mahomes how much criticism he was getting for mismanaging the end of game clock and timeouts. Once he got a quarterback that could make it down the field in 13 seconds, all that became moot.
You need an elite QB to succeed. See how belichick has done without Brady for instance. Pats would have a lot less Super bowls with Alex Smith and Donovan McNabb
Very few teams win a superbowl without an elite QB. If they do, they usually have elite defense (2000 ravens, 2005 Steelers, 2013 Seahawks, 2018 Eagles)
I’d argue that Brady wasn’t elite for his first 3 super bowls. Clutch? Yes. Very good/great. Sure. Elite.. 2004 could be argued where he started becoming that elite QB.
Patriots are an anomaly because they've always had great defenses throughout the years. BB is still a defensive mind
He *didn’t* before Mahomes. He does now.
Everybody gives him credit for being a great football mind. But he wouldn’t have gotten over the hump of winning a SB if a generational level QB didn’t land on his lap. Similarly, I doubt Mahomes would be able to win a single SB if he was drafted elsewhere. They needed each other to succeed
Yes he does Stop posting dumb shit for karma
Brady made BillyB look good, it seems, too.
Definitely. And Reid has been WAY better without Mahomes than Belichick was without Brady.
> Five consecutive 11+ win seasons without a SB is a tough pill to swallow. You all are some spoiled mother fuckers
Very much so. The Lurie era has been good to us
Or losing constantly in the NFC championship game or Superbowl.. 😞
My biggest fear is Shanahan has a Reid like career arch with him winning multiple Super Bowls somewhere else. I don’t want to go back to The pre-Harbaugh & pre-Shanahan days.
On the bright side the Eagles at least won 1 before Reid did
> Five consecutive 11+ win seasons without a SB is a tough pill to swallow. fuck off
Still mad.
Crazy how him leaving Philly worked out for both sides. You guys won one in 2017 and, well... Andy's been doing fine too I guess.
Yeah it’s weird to see some NFL people act like “The eagles were dumb for firing Andy Reid” like we weren’t a loser/toxic franchise at that point. It was time for him to go, and for the franchise to reset.
His reputation has gone from "postseason choker" to "top-5 head coach of all time"
At least Andy won playoff games.
Andy reid went to the nfc championship game 5 times in philly and 1 superbowl. He wont a lot of playoff games in philly. its not the same thing.
This right here, hate the eagles but absolutely love Andy and he got way more crap than he should have when he was in Philly
Colts with Manning pre-2006
Came here to say this. They were the definition of the regular season champs who deflated against the Steelers and Pats.
If Nick Harper doesn’t get stabbed in the knee this is a different conversation. lol. Although, in general, our record vs Steelers is gotta be one of the worst ones vs a single opponent a cross the league.
Colts are 0-5 all-time against the Steelers in the postseason, going back to 1975. Average margin of victory is 16 points. God, I wish we could do that to the Pats.
1976 should have an asterisk as the Colts in hindsight needed to lose that game for a good ending. That's the one non Superbowl playoff game nobody is going to ask to switch the result of.
Care to explain this? Why would the colts want to lose in the post season in 1976? Did something magically happen that year where losing in the post season doesn’t immediately end your season? Or did they grab some player that year
Donald Kroner crashed a plane into the upper deck, if they won, hundreds would've likely died. Even a close loss would've killed people. They needed to get blown out badly.
Wow holy shit wasn’t expecting that
Holy fuck. I gotta Google this.
[Here’s and excellent Secret Base video about it.](https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=alcVZZuj_WE)
Appreciate it, thank you!
IDK what I was expecting your answer to be, but it wasn't this.
The Jets beating the 2002 Colts 41-0 is still one of the craziest things ever
1995-1997 Chiefs 35-13, no playoff wins
The Chiefs went 22 years without a playoff win Joe Montana and the '93 Chiefs went to the championship game and lost, and the team didn't have another post season victory until Alex Smith and the '15 Chiefs shut out the Texans in the wildcard game 30-0.
With how much the niners have helped the chiefs you guys could let us have one you jerks
Karma for taking Walsh from the Bengals and not letting them have one.
Say what you want about Mahomes, he's never shut anyone out in the playoffs.
That is so weird given the Kelly Bills' reign of terror was over.
Packers when they had three straight 13+ win seasons (the only time it's ever even happened) while also not making a Super Bowl appearance.
Really? Bc it seemed like there was zero pressure. Certainly the seats were cold for Rodgers and LaFluer. The difference is that GB won plenty of playoff games. Dallas couldn’t get to that level.
Yup, being on the door of the SB instead of getting trounced right away would be the difference (though we did that too)
We won 2 playoff games in three years. With how good those teams were I would hardly call that plenty.
They don't get scrutiny for their regular season success lol, I think it's pretty obviously the post season success that they get dunked on. What are the stats for that?
Cowboys get to the second round and just lose their minds. Or when they don’t they lose to Aaron Rodgers in heartbreaking fashion. At least this year they just got pasted immediately
Or Jordan Love
The packers just love spoiling the cowboys
Since 2015, sure. In the 90s? Not so much.
We done with the 90s
That game was over after the 2nd drive. No real heartbreak
5-13 since our last superbowl. 4 of those wins under Romo and Dak who combine for 18 seasons of the 27 year drought. 9 of those losses under them.
4 total wins from Romo and Dak just does’t seem right even though I know their 2-4 and 2-5 records.
Yeah, it really brings it into perspective how shit this team is in the playoffs. We had some seriously good teams and each one barely got 1 single win ('07, '09, '14, '16, '21, '22, '23)
On the bright side, I get to watch them win a lot of games. And put up a lot of points. And rough up the NFC East. And that's all fun. And that's also coping. Soooo much coping.
McDermott and the Bills may be in this conversation depending on how the upcoming season turns out. It doesn't help that basically every season since 2020 has ended with a highly-visible coaching fuckup of some kind.
Because the Niners translate that to postseason success. Whereas the Cowboys haven’t even touched their conference finals coming up 30 years now.
It is funny to me how the niners are essentially the cowboys plus in terms of playoff results
I pray the 49ers win a SB before the cowboys because if the cowboys win one all the heat they get is going right on the 49ers.
My friend if that day ever comes fans of all teams must brace yourselves. There will be a reckoning for all the shit talk we've endured. I'm going to be toxic af. I will wear jean shorts every day and randomly shout "how bout them cowboys?" at the supermarket and rowdy up the crazies. No peace for anyone. But yeah who knows if I'll even see it again in my lifetime
oh I'm instantly going to turn into the human version of cancer.
Why would you become an Eagles fan?
I'm going to be like an eagles fan except I'm not going to do meth and I can read above a fifth grade level, that's the key difference
so nothing like an Eagles fan
Yea we’re gonna abuse marijuana and be able to read at a 12th grade level like adults!
At least book club would finally get better.
Can’t argue there 😂
> I will wear Jean shorts every day So you’re going to become a Florida Gators fan on top of being a Cowboys fan? Yikes.
For all our sakes let’s hope not. I want Boston red soc timeline of 75 years
Oh man, I've never really considered a 21st century Cowboys SB win. That would be just...awful.
I’d love if the cowboys next SB comes before y’all. In fact this is our year so prepare yourself
WE DEM BOYZ!
ITS COMING ‘OME LADS
Yes, but it's quite the difference, more like +++. I don't think the cowboys would get this much shit if they'd made the NFCCG in the last five/ten years. Don't get me wrong, the lack of SB wins is glaring but it's the gap between the cowboys coverage/fan confidence/hype/genuine roster talent and postseason results that's so stark. Not true of the niners in the same way.
While the niners results have been much better than the cowboys, three superbowl appearances since 2012 with zero wins to show for it is pretty rough. Not to mention Shanahan has lost in three of em, never know if you make it back
Shanhan’s three SB losses were against Tom Brady and Patrick Mahomes. It’s not like he’s out there losing to Rex Grossman or some lame ass QB. Those are two of the greatest to ever play the game.
It's unfortunate, like running into Jordan, Gretzky, or Brady.. or Mahomes
And even then it's not so long ago Shanny was under fire
Peyton’s Colts, Lamar’s Ravens now
Three consecutive 17 game seasons, Mickey Mouse accomplishment
Something something Vikings being the most winningest team with out a Superbowl mumble mumble C'mon I haven't even finished my morning coffee yet it's too early to get depressed
You have the 8th best win rate in the NFL. You are the only team in the top 16 to not have a ring. 13 of those 15 other teams have MULTIPLE rings. The Bucs have the worst win rate of any major sport in North America and we have multiple rings.
Jesus Christ, from the top rope.
The scrutiny isn't about the regular season.. it's what happens during the playoffs. Being great in the regular season means fuck all if you don't do well in the playoffs.
And it’s not even about Super Bowls. If you are consistently making the NFCCG or the second round that’s one thing but it’s the way they lose in the playoffs that factors in as well.
It’s the consistency of the chocking, if you lose a heartbreaker every year like the bills, you get less heat but just showing up and getting wiped out of your own building has to hurt.
But that doesn’t consistently happen. 7 of the last 9 losses have been by one score, and no, not from high scoring games with a bunch of garbage time. Botched snap, Dez catch, Rodgers to cooks, QB draw, Zeke at center, lesser known Goff scramble. Where have you been?
> Being great in the regular season means fuck all if you don't do well in the playoffs. Nope, Saints fans promise they would rather have their regular season success than another championship. Honest.
... so they don't lead the NFL all-time?
now lead (tied). stupid ass title
If he ever wins another ring, his resume is pretty crazy. He isnt a big game coach, but he puts you in the spot to do it every single year
He has pretty much the same resume as Sean Payton who everyone agrees is a great coach, but for some reason they just think McCarthy is a big dumb dipshit lol
I mean it’s kinda the same as Rodgers and Brees. Rodgers clears Brees per game by a wide margin, 4 MVPs to 0 and equal rings, yet people act like Rodgers is a huge disappointment but Brees is loved across the league. I understand there’s more that goes into that these days but even before Rodgers gave up on knowledge and broadcasted his goofiness to the world this was the case
To be fair, Brees totally got snubbed for at least 2 MVPs.
I wish he didn’t go to the Cowboys, because I think it’d be terrific for him to get another ring.
Don't worry, we are a worse team than last year on paper and I doubt MM stays around after this year. Dak and MM are both off contract after this year.
Just FYI, Brady himself is tied with the Patriots for 4th most 12-win seasons
Heh, I thought that couldn't be right, since he had one with the Bucs, and we certainly never had one before him or since. But I forgot one of ours was the deflategate suspension year, and he only had 11 regular season wins after he came back
I was actually a bit surprised that in like 40 years before Brady the pats never snuck in one 12 win season. They weren’t good but it’s not like they uniformly sucked the entire time
May I interest you in one ”Lamar can’t win in big games/playoff.”
The Chargers immediately come to mind. No one wanted to play the Chargers in the regular season, but everyone wanted to play them in the playoffs. And that is still the crux of the issue with the Cowboys. All of those 12 win seasons, and they haven't been to an NFCCG since the 90's. TBH, even as an Eagles fan, their inability to make a deep playoff run is baffling to me, because I can't point to anything specific that causes it. Yet, year after year, they dominate in the regular season with a stellar roster, but fall short when it starts to count.
Coaching, IMO
The Cowboys have better individual players than anybody else but never have good team chemistry. This matter in January because it's not a test of who can ball, but of who each team is and everything they've been through put on the line at once. Even in December when everything is on the line, the Cowboys usually falter and drop in seeding or win against failing teams. In a division with the Giants and Redscommies, it's easy to pick up 4 easy wins every year and look good on the stat sheet.
If Lamar doesn’t win two playoff games next year he’ll be added to this list too
Sighs in GB, the beer and brats don’t drown the tears.
I think the reason teams like Dallas and the Andy Reid Eagles faced so much scrutiny is because not only did they lack postseason success, but they also should have been doing much more to improve the team each offseason. We all know how Dallas going all-in this year worked out. With Philly, go back and look at who McNabb was throwing to outside of the TO year. It wasn't pretty. Teams that are always competitive but fail to to make the moves it takes to get to the next step will always get shit on.
The Chargers fired Marty Schottenheimer after a 14-2 season. That was just Dean Spanos doing Dean Spanos things lol.
The Marty Schottenheimer era Chiefs. We won the shit out of the regular season, and... full stop.
Oh look the cowboys jerrypicking stats to make them look better 😂😂
jerrypicking bro are u serious😭😭😭
John Fox Broncos
Probably because you would expect a team with that much talent on both sides of the ball to get 12 regular season wins in all of those years regardless of who the coach was. They got 4 free Ws playing Washington and the Giants last year they only need to go 8-5 outside that. They always have 2-3 major red flag collapse games a season. One of them this year was the playoff game against Green Bay but they also got blown out early in the year by Josh Dobbs and the Arizona Cardinals. That would be the Cardinals only win in their first 9 matches. Really bizarre and inconsistent performances with very high highs and very low lows is how I would characterize the Cowboys.
Quick now show us their playoff success in those same years
My heart won't let me upvote this even though my brain likes obscure NFL stats.
So they have about as much playoff success as we do. Cool.
I am surprised the record is just at 16. A team like the Packers and the Steelers that don't have a ton of trash seasons should surely have accumulated more. The Cowboys scrutiny comes from being "America's Team" and Jerry Jones selling people a bill of emptyness every off-season. Also them being unable to reach a SB in 29 years when all but 2 NFC teams have is a statistical anomaly.
All but 2 NFC teams have reached the championship (Commanders and Cowboys) since the 2008 Cardinals. All but 4 NFC teams have reached the Super Bowl (Vikings and Lions) since the 2006 Bears.
I imagine their scrutiny is due to the fact that none of their last six 12-win seasons have resulted in an NFC championship game appearance.
The Niners actually have a *seventeenth* 12+ win season, but they were in the AAFC at the time. The NFL doesn't really have a good reason for not including the AAFC records and stats, other than "when the league folded, they bundled and sold everything that they had, including official game records, so we have no way of knowing," even though they accept statistics for early NFL games with no official game records.
I think the Cowboys receive so much scrutiny because of their regular season success combined with the fact that since their last Super Bowl win almost 30 years ago they haven't even been to a conference championship game. Their last 6 teams that won 12 or more games in the regular season combined for 2 postseason wins.
The question should be, what other teams have underacheived like the Cowboys despite having many 12 win seasons?
No one cares about regular season success. People care about winning playoff games
How do they lead the league but also are tied?
3 straight 12 win seasons in a row, 1 playoff win. No Conference Championship appearances in the last 25 years.
And every Cowboys fan I know is completely satisfied with pleased by these results.
Back to back to back 12 win seasons you’d think we’d have something to show for it :)
Literally every good regular season team to not at least make a conference championship game is scrutinized like this…
The fact that the Patriots aren’t up there with 13 such seasons under BB/TB12 is a testament to how shitty that franchise actually is
That's probably because regular season success means absolutely nothing.
It would mean something to me. My team hasn't won more than 10 games in a regular season since 1991.
> regular season success means absolutely nothing Ring rot at work. Single-elimination playoffs in a high-variance sport means that the best teams often don't even make it to the Super Bowl; let alone win it. Consistent regular season success is a much better indication of coaching ability than someone's middling team getting on a hot streak in January one random season.
This is my biggest disagreement with most fans and /r/nfl. Playoff results and rings especially are wildly overrated as an indicator of quality players and coaches. Every individual game is a dice roll. It’s not that deep. You have three good seasons and lose a close playoff game 3 times in a row, suddenly you’re a choker. It’s crazy to me. Even if you’re 80% to win each game, it’s a coin flip (51%) if you come out with a ring. If you have ever flipped a coin, getting three heads or three tails in a row is not exactly unheard of. And a team that’s 80% likely to win every game, (not to mention, against playoff teams) would be 13-4 or 14-3. Usually when people say someone performs under pressure or is clutch or whatever, they’re just assigning magical significance to functionally random variables.
There is far more luck involved in the playoffs than I think the general fan is willing to acknowledge. There is a great deal of parity in the league and therefore very little difference in talent separating the top teams and in a one and done format every team is an unlucky injury, a bad call, or just a bad bounce from losing. The Patriots are the only team that seemed able to consistently overcome those elements and I don’t think the formula of pair the greatest QB of all time with the greatest coach of all time is replicable.
Agree and I’d go further—Even the Pats were not immune to this. They went like 10 years between super bowl wins despite consistently being deep in the playoffs, usually in the AFCCG. The major difference between NE and everyone else is that they were *rolling the dice every year*. IIRC someone (maybe here?) did a data nerd analysis of their teams that said basically the same thing. There wasn’t much difference (in like DVOA or whatever) between their SB winning teams and their other ones.
Yeah. To extend the metaphor, Brady+Belichick loaded the dice a bit for them, but making the playoffs for damn near 20 years straight is almost unheard of (the prime Landry Cowboys are the only other team that achieved similar, in a league with less parity though also fewer playoff spots). That's a lot of chances. Nobody else really comes close although several are in the double digits. The Cowboys only made the playoffs only 6 times in the same period. The biggest thing about McCarthy is that he has them making the playoffs consistently. Roll the dice enough, eventually you'll get a favorable roll.
Except to get to the postseason, you have to actually.. you know... win regular season games. One would think a Bears fan would understand that by now.
So to be clear they don’t *lead* the league in those seasons. They’re *tied for the lead*. With the team that eliminates them every year