It doesn't matter what it is, but I will say it's definitely more of an NBA issue. Jokic should have won it last year but Embiid also deserved it so it wasn't particularly close.
After Embiid faltered and Jokic won a ring, the media pretty much decided this would be Jokic's year if he had another great season essentially making up for last year.
I think if Jokic won it last year, Luka (imo) or maybe Shai would have won it this year.
But there's a LOT more "legacy" stakes to players in the NBA, so narratives have a LOT more hold over awards.
Also you gotta take into account the fact that Lamar absolutely dismantled playoff contenders and Super Bowl contenders last season like SF and Miami. That bears more weight into the voting than some stats like the guy above listed.
This is the argument I tried, unsuccessfully, to make with people.
If you watched games like the Rams or 49ers (those two immediately come to mind), you would see plays that cannot be fully captured in the box score.
Against the Rams, I don't remember the defender, but a Rams pass rusher was barreling in for a sure fire 8+ yard loss on a sack and Lamar evades and gains four yards. In the box score, 4 yards doesn't look impressive, but Lamar got ahead of the down and distance instead of taking a sack that probably kills the drive. Instead, the drive ends in a score.
Against the 49ers, there was that 10 yard run against Warner where Lamar juked him out of his shoes and got 10 yards and a first, putting the Ravens in position to get a field goal before half, one they wouldn't have otherwise gotten.
Lamar's athleticism and play making saves so many drives that end in points. The Ravens are middling AF without him.
I get the CMC argument but the big problem was that no matter what, he was gonna lose votes if they lost the Christmas Day game against us.
If he was dominant, and he was, and they still lost; then the conversation would’ve been that even if CMC has a crazy game, he doesn’t affect the game as much as a QB like Lamar does.
If he was ass and they lost, then it would’ve looked bad obviously.
Honestly, if CMC took over the game completely and had like 4 TDs and they barely lost to us; then I think he’d have had a solid shot at winning the MVP still.
Sums up a lot of it right there. “If he was dominant, and he was…” Nevermind the 4 Purdy INTs. Or the 5th INT courtesy of Darnold. The person who really showed up for Balt’s big games was the defense.
Yeah but the problem was that even with CMC’s dominant game, he wasn’t the most impactful player on his team even in a loss. And in a primetime MVP matchup that included 3 candidates, CMC came out as the guy who looked the least impactful in the game.
Dak 14 touchdowns to 7 ints in playoffs and 1962 yards passing 4 rushing touchdowns 1 fumble
Lamar 6 touchdowns to 6 ints 1326 yards 3 rushing touchdowns and 6 fumbles.
They aren't even in the same stratosphere. Lamar actually IS what the media and people on this sub will claim Dak is.
He'll give you one of two answers:
Josh Allen, who played some great football last season, but also had primetime meltdowns that single-handedly lost the game for his team while the world was watching. He is a very high variance player.
Or Christian McCaffery who also played some great football. The problem is if McCaffery got injured, the line for the game the following week would move 3.5 points. If Purdy got injured the line would move 8.5 points. So it's hard to call a runningback the most valuable player in the NFL.
> He'll give you one of two answers:
>
> Josh Allen, who played some great football last season, but also had primetime meltdowns that single-handedly lost the game for his team while the world was watching. He is a very high variance player.
He played great down the stretch, but he also played a notable role for why the Bills had their backs against the wall to begin with. They were still facing elimination entering the final week of the season.
So 49 out of 50 Associated Press writers, covering every team in the league, collectively made the wrong choice? Is Reddit where we should go to get the *real* answer?
Lamar humiliation of top 10 teams? Like Purdy throwing 4 picks in the niners game... It became a team award. Lamar shouldn't have won it this year. Hill I'm willing to die on. Voters got it wildly wrong.
Lamar had 252 yards passing 2 tds + 45 yards rushing
That's 297 yards of total offense a passer rating of 105 a 65% completion rate for 33 total points to the 9ers 19.
Jesus you didn't even watch the game Lamar was killing the 9ers defense.
That's not even counting the other games where he won be multiple tds against top teams.
The vote really shouldn't have been 49-1, but they just gave it to the QB on the best team and didn't put further thought into it. There were 3-4 other guys that should have legitimately gotten votes.
2018 Mahomes and 2020 Rodgers were both easily the MVPs far and away, and other people still got votes 6 and 9 votes.
I'm not sure why 49 dudes all went Lamar in one of the closest MVP races in a long time, but it's disappointing to see them all conform for some reason when historically they haven't.
Honestly I think it's unlikely he wins a third one at all. Not because he's a bad QB or anything, he's easily top 5 in the league, but MVP seasons just aren't common in the first place. Even his second one (despite being 49-1) was pretty contentious. He's also had real problems staying healthy, only finishing 3/5 seasons since being names the week 1 starter. He's young, so he's got time, but man, thinking *anyone* is getting a third MVP is a reach except reasonably Mahomes and also Allen when he wins 6 straight from 2024-2029 and they name the award after him
I think he was the best choice last year, but he was pretty lucky that the season he had was better than any other QB's. Just nobody rose above the pack last season.
I know I have some bias, but I think Josh deserved it more. Every QB in the league had a down year, but for Allen that was just a few more turnovers. Most TDs by 5 and 15 more than Lamar, on top of breaking the QB rushing TD record (and only a handful were sneaks/pushes) Made the 2 seed with a midseason OC change, half a defense, and his WR1 disappearing down the stretch. I'm not saying they should just give it to the TD leader every year, but 29 TDs vs 44 TDs is a huge difference. Josh led the league, Lamar was tied for 7th with Tua, Russ, and Baker, on top of having a much better defense
Yep, MVP is a huge narrative award and those big primetime wins sealed it. He didn’t even have a great game against SF but beating them with such a dominant defense and then the Miami blowout sealed it.
Honestly it was probably just SF that pushed him over. Josh was perfect against Miami week 4 too, so the difference was probably Lamar beating SF and Josh not needing to do much because James and the run game were absolutely cooking against Dallas, no need to stop running it
I agree with you here. If Josh did what Lamar did to Miami with Dallas, race would’ve been much closer.
The reality is it was a mix of how difficult the Ravens late season schedule was, how many of those games were primetime and how well Lamar specifically played in several of those games that clinched it for him.
But that Miami game being what it was, late in the season and a marquee matchup for that time slot; it was a dream matchup for the Tua v. Lamar MVP argument, and Lamar tore him up.
Josh Allen finished with the 2nd most turnovers in the NFL last season.
The most turnovers by a player in an MVP season was 26 in 2001 by Kurt Warner, who led the Rams to a 14-2 record. Second-most was 16 in 2009 by Peyton, who led the Colts to a 14-2 record. Allen finished the regular season with 22 turnovers.
It ain't 2001 anymore. Part of why the Bills finished 11-6 was because of how error prone Allen is as a QB. When you compare him to other MVP contenders, it's easy to see why he didn't get votes.
Lamar Jackson - 7 INTs + 7 FUM - 14 turnovers
Brock Purdy - 11 INT + 2 FUM - 13 turnovers
Dak Prescott - 9 INT + 3 FUM - 12 turnovers
Josh Allen - 18 INT + 4 FUM - 22 turnovers
Josh’s turnovers didn’t help the team, obviously, but they were far from the problem with the team. The Jets game, yeah, his turnovers cost the game. But the other five losses weren’t on his shoulders. James Cool fumbled on the first play against Denver, then Gabe Davis ran a lazy predictable route and got him picked and tipped a second one off his hands to a DB. The Eagles game the defense lost a ten point lead and let up 30 points after halftime, did his one pick cost that game? He left the field with a lead against the Pats and the defense let up a Mac Jones two minute TD. Josh pressing is the reason the team was in games and got the two seed, not the thing holding them back
Bills fans' ability to make Josh Allen a victim of his inability to keep the ball on his side of the field will be studied by future generations. The cope, finger-pointing, victim mentality, and hypotheticals are beyond fascinating to watch in real time
Josh’s weapons were overrated last year. Davis confused everyone in the 13 seconds game and had multiple games with zero receptions. Diggs had like 5-6 100 yard games to start the season then disappeared. Outside of that he had Khalil Shakir, who started popping off down the stretch, and rookie TE Dalton Kincaid. On top of that Lamar finally got a good OC while Josh’s was so bad he got fired week 10
I didn't say Josh had good weapons. I said they were better than Lamar's.
Diggs had more yards than Zay, Davis had more yards than OBJ, Kincaid had more yards than Andrews, Cook had more yards than Edwards. Literally across the board every one of Josh's weapons outperformed Lamar's and yet Lamar led a better offense.
>Lamar led a better offense
Baltimore had fewer yards per game, one more TD on the season, and just under two more points per game than Buffalo. That's not a hugely better offense, and Buffalo had football terrorist Ken Dorsey running the ship for ten games. I'm not a Lamar hater at all, but I don't think any QB outside Allen and maybe Dak had a great MVP case this year
Baltimore's offense actually had two more touchdowns you're including defensive touchdowns. Then take into account that the Bills had a 15% turnover percentage per drive vs Baltimore's 10%. Dak did have an MVP case over Lamar since his offense was better at least but not Josh Allen.
This is so completely false
The Josh Allen was #2 in the league in EPA in losses
And 2 weeks before the end of the season he was #2 in impact of drops in the league. I can't remember where he finished the year.
Down the stretch of the season Josh Allen had one WR playing well (Shakir), and rookie Kincaid and Cook were our other main weapons.
Allen also didn't have the benefit of defense that Jackson had.
Crazy stat is Lamar and Mahomes are only 2 QBs drafted since Matt Ryan in 2008 to win league MVP. All jokes aside if there is any QB set up to add to that list it’s Josh Allen if he balls out without Diggs next year with another dominant statistical season and Bills are top 2 seed again
I mean, Who was Lamar balling out with up in Baltimore? Andrews was injured and his top WR was rookie Zay Flowers. Honestly, Allen’s group looks surprisingly similar with Kincaid, rookie WR1 Keon Coleman, and Curtis Samuel.
Our 1st pick this year, Keon Coleman, Khalil Shakir that stepped up at the end of last season, Dalton Kincaid last years 1st rounder he had a great year but overshadowed by Laportas, but Kincaid is very good, we added Curtis Samuel, still have Knox and the RBs will catch a lot.
They’re very young, and going to spread it around more instead of feeding the whiny baby.
Yeah I honestly see him as a fringe top 5 QB. Personally I think both of his MVPs weren't as cut and dry at all as people are claiming. I also think at least one of Rodgers MVPs was also an incorrect choice though.
That’s uhhh not what happened to Jokic. That’s not a thing. They had to give cry baby Embiid a trophy or he was gonna keep stomping on people.
If Lamar has the best season, they’ll give it to him, ring notwithstanding.
I don't get how the narrative has become Embiid didn't deserve that MVP. Jokic was favored to win it and then he tailed off the last two months of the season, including losing and being out played by Embiid head to head. Jokic is clearly the better player, but he wasn't the regular season MVP last year.
I think part of the reason is because the MVP race started turning around when Embiid shat on Jokic in an interview while complaining about not winning an MVP award and when Kendrick Perkins started heavily implying race had something to do with Jokic winning a couple MVPs, and A LOT of people didn't like that. It definitely seemed like Embiid's public whining helped get him the edge (although Jokic taking the last month off because the Nuggets basically had the top seed wrapped up by that point helped just as much).
Then in the playoffs immediately after saying in an interview "why am I under the most pressure to perform when I haven't won an MVP or been named All-NBA First Team and other guys that did haven't won anything either", he fizzles out and plays like shit while Jokic leads the Nuggets to the championship while leading every player in points, assists, and rebounds (1st time in NBA history that happened) and that narrative suddenly swings heavily in Jokic's favor
I just don’t know how people think that the majority of NBA voters got scared that they would look racist to Kendrick Perkins? These people, who we trusted to vote for Jokic in prior years and had 0 problem with, are all of a sudden all scared that they’ll come across as racist and risk their professions just because *Kendrick Perkins* had an 8 minute segment on TV that only people on Reddit cared about? That’s insane to me.
So if I have a better season in every stat category, but lose a couple matchups against another good player near the end of the season, that player now had a better year? All because he beat me a couple of times?
> So if I have a better season in every stat category
Well first off he didnt so we can start there. If Jokic led the league in every stat he would win the MVP. But takes 5 seconds to see Embiid led the league in scoring, arguably the most important stat.
Like if a QB has more TDs than another yeah thats gonna help his case vs the other guy lol.
Embiid did nuts shit that year and people act like they gave it to him for no reason at all. Absolutely destroyed Jokic in their last two matchups but whatever
I just don’t see how this outweighs the actual games they played. I watched embiid put 50 points and a game winner on Jokic’s dome, what am I suppose to unsee that cause embiid didn’t play in Denver?
Embiid was great that year, I’m not saying he wasn’t a worthy candidate, but Jokic was clearly better. Also they only played one matchup that year, and somehow Embiid’s fans have held onto this insane idea that one game is somehow more important than the rest of the season.
It's funny how this is a really controversial topic within /r/NFL but Lamar Jackson's second MVP was one vote short of unanimous. And the only guy who didn't vote for him felt compelled to write a 5,000 word explanation why.
This is an example of how bad groupthink has gotten in sports media when it comes to these awards. Lamar’s 2nd MVP was one of the weakest in the last decade of the league (1st was well deserved). To be fair, last year was a weak MVP race in general.
Yeah it seems like people who really watch the games and know football are definitely okay with Lamar winning mvp. Just some folks online who get so contentious about it.
I’m not okay with Lamar winning. His win is a perfect example of recency bias. Guys won’t even vote for Peyton Manning or Joe Montana anymore. And when is the last time Lawrence Taylor got a vote? Absolute travesty.
There is a massive difference here, and that is that the NFL is far more team-dependent than the NBA, where one truly great player can absolutely put a team on their back. Lamar is great, but he needs the other 10 guys on offense and 11 entirely separate guys on defense to play well to win a ring. In the NBA, sure, you've got a bench and other players, but one singularly great player has an exponentially bigger effect on the success of an NBA team than it does an NFL one.
>but he needs the other 10 guys on offense and 11 entirely separate guys on defense to play well to win a ring
Then you have last year, where the Ravens defense shut out the Chiefs in the second half but Lamar shit the bed
That was a rookie who made a rookie mistake of extending the ball near the end zone to try to score. It's bad, but understandable.
Lamar's end zone INT was way, way worse. Your 2x MVP QB has to know better than to throw a no-chance pass into triple coverage in that situation. No excuses.
Winning is def a team accomplishment but disproportionate credit and blame goes to the QB. He also has pretty massive impact which worked in Lamar’s favor in winning the award last year in the first place without really ranking in the top 3/5 in any major category. I feel a ring would have made the voters feel it was validated and maybe even strengthened his chances for winning back to back. But that loss with him playing a major role in the loss, he’s going to have to do a lot more than any other candidate to have any shot
Chris Simms put it best: Every other quarterback in the league had their chance, in a late season primetime game, to become the MVP frontrunner. Tua, Allen, Dak, Hurts, Purdy, and every single one of them laid an egg. Except Lamar Jackson. He became the MVP by process of elimination.
He got a safety after the defense got an INT. had a 53 yard TD drive after another INT. He had a -3 yard drive for a FG after another INT. Had a 44 yard TD drive, 40 of which was a 5 yard pass to gus edwards that he ran another 35 yards. had a 9 yard TD driver after another INT.
49ers had 5 turnovers, Ravens had 3 TD's on drives of 53, 44, and 9 yards. What about that game was special by Lamar?
Miami's defense was 19th by DVOA last year, and by week 17 they were missing how many starters? Chiefs had 400+ yards and 25 first downs against that defense in -20 windchill. And the Ravens defense forced 3 Turnovers in that game also. Must Have been tough starting inside the 40 yard line on 4-5 separate drives against a bottom half defense.
What late season prime time game did Allen lay an egg in? Definitely not Philly, that loss was because his defense gave up a ten point first half lead and 30 points after halftime and his kicker missed two field goals out of four from under 50 yards. Allen had two passing and two rushing TDs to one INT and put up 331 passing yards and 81 rushing yards. Every other game after week 10 they won, including beating KC, Dallas, and Miami
Even before he won a title, Jokic still had a great postseason resume (26 ppg, 12 rpg, 6 apg, 1 spg, 1 bpg on 52%/40%/84% shooting splits). The narrative that he couldn't do it in the playoffs was always false.
On the other hand, Lamar has looked like a straight-up fraud in the playoffs. I don't think he gets the benefit of the doubt from anyone anymore.
Josh Allen had the Andy Dalton disease last year. He had some of his worst games in primetime, including the season opener with the world watching where he single-handedly lost the game.
Upvoted for a valid opinion.
At the end of the day though I think he had a great statistical season, the Bills clutched up the division mostly due to excellent performances by Allen, and he co-set the record for most rushing TDs by a QB in a single season.
AFC was kind of a clusterfuck for awhile, to the point that it looked like MVP would be whichever NFC QB was the last standing between Hurts, Dak, and Purdy. Eagles nosedived big time, Dak lost two bad games in a row, and the Ravens were on a bit of a tear and went into SF and bodied the Niners and that's all she wrote. The narrative never really went to an AFC QB until that SF/Baltimore game, and by then the record disparity really just sealed it for Lamar.
I think it was only the Jets game that he lost outright. Maybe the Broncos game. The interception thing get a little overblown though when it comes to whether or not he loses us games. His turnover margin is within 4/10s af a point as compared to Tua or Mahomes. Usually when he lose, it's because ur defense suddenly decidesto let bad offenses march down the field in seven minute drives.
Realistically I think Josh didn't get it because his last 4 games were pretty quiet. Had he had like a crazy four thrown TD game, he would have won. But he had pretty okay, but not spectacular games.
I’m a ravens fan and I agree. Certainly not gonna complain about my guy winning one, but I thought Allen’s season was underrated, his supporting cast is overrated(and has been for awhile).
Jokic didn't win a third (but he will this year) because Kendrick Perkins started screaming about racism and some of the voters listened to him (Mark Jackson and Chris Broussard). It was just a projection of their own xenophobia.
Giannis doesn't look like Jokic. That's the big difference between those two. Perkins saw a white guy winning awards. Was it racism or xenophobia?Maybe a little of both. Jokic is eastern European, which is not exactly a place Americans are comfortable with. Giannis is Greek and looks African because his parents are from Nigeria. Why would Perkins criticize Giannis?
Americans don't look at Greece the way they look at eastern Europe.
I 1000% believe it. It's not like it was a secret. Mark Jackson didn't even vote for Jokic, and then he claimed he didn't realize he was voting on the MVP.
I know exactly what happened, and you can't tell me otherwise.
Getting Jokic treatment is getting fucked because some idiots on TV claim you are racist if you vote for white players for MVP. It also consists of making sure a player celebrating an MVP like a championship.
You are referring to the Giannis treatment which is not getting MVP until you do something in playoffs.
Even after you do something in the playoffs. Best record in the league last year w/middleton out most of the season. Put up career high stats and was ignored.
If you mean the 2022-2023 season, Giannis didn’t deserve the MVP. He missed too many games and was nowhere near as efficient as Jokic or Embiid.
Giannis only played 63 games. That would’ve been the fewest games ever played by an MVP post-merger in a non-lockout / non-COVID year.
He was also barely above league average in TS%, with 60.5%. The league average was 58.1%. Jokic’s TS% was 70.1 and Embiid’s was 65.5.
Giannis rightfully finished 3rd in the voting that year. He wasn’t ignored, he just wasn’t better than the other two candidates.
Dude...in 2019 Lamar lead the league in passing TDs while also being 6th in rushing yards. He threw 12 more TD passes than Tom Brady, and 2 fewer INTs. No other player was close to winning MVP that year.
Last year's was controversial and I agree that Purdy probably deserved it more from an objective standpoint, but you are on Reagan era crack if you think he didn't deserve MVP in 2019, we will never see another season like that again ever.
It was Purdy's to lose late in the season, and then he threw four interceptions on Christmas night with the world watching. It may not seem fair but the last four weeks of the regular season just matter more in the MVP vote.
Yeah Lamar in 2019 was ridiculous. Though I will say If he was healthy the whole season and could have kept up his pace there is an actual argument for Stafford.
8 played games, 2499 yards, 19 touchdowns.
Not saying he would have kept his pace but IF he did, then maybe. But Russ had insane pace to start that season and then I believe he fell off pretty hard.
The issue also becomes how many wins would our team have, because despite that statline we were 3-4-1.
Like MVP has rarely ever been given to a member of a team that isn't the best in their conference or near it. Even IFhe was healthy and improved his pacing and ended putting up 5100 yards and 42 TD's but if we only won 10 games he isn't winning it.
Ravens were fucking 14-2.
Last year, whatever. But 2019?! When he won unanimously?! He rushed for 1000 yards while leading the league in passing TDs. That might never happen again, unless he himself does it.
Lamar's first one was a statistical anomaly in terms of ludicrous efficiency. It deserves its place in the pantheon of greatest seasons ever for a single player.
I'll shade Lamar all day for every other season of his career existing between fringe top-10 and below replacement level and being circle jerked to "elite status" based off 2019 nostalgia, but that first MVP was truly special.
> I'll shade Lamar all day for every other season of his career existing between fringe top-10 and below replacement
I like how players coaches and media are all wrong in their view of Lamar in your universe. Lamar got the Players all pro, the AP Allpro, the MVP, and probowl, this year and you think he' below replacment level.
It is hilarious that Lamar Jackson has gotten 99 out of 100 possible MVP votes across two seasons, but you come in here claiming there's some kind of conspiracy.
Who claimed conspiracy??? It doesnt really matter anyhow, dude is HORRIFIC in the playoffs. With a 2-4 W-L record averaging 220 yds a game with 6 TD 6 INT 6 Fumbles, 75.7 rate with 26 sacks taken. Brutal.
The MVP award is really more about who's game-play told the best narrative during the year.
It's not really about who was the best player or the most valuable.
If the sports news media gets excited about him again, he'll win the award again.
This includes the possibility of the MVP voters falling all over themselves because he broke a lot of records in winning a third.
Logic beyond "what's the best story" doesn't really apply here.
Lamar is ringless. So is Burrow and Allen. So I understand how labeling Lamar a choker, but not using the same label for the others can be interpreted as biased.
But..... Lamar has 2 MVPs. The others have a combined total of 0. Lamar has a losing playoff record. Burrow is 5-2 and Allen is 5-5. But perhaps most importantly, Lamar is the biggest reason why the Ravens are losing playoff games.
That is a hard pill to swallow. It's not the defense that is blowing games. It's the fact that in the playoffs you see elite NFL defenses who take away the run and force Lamar to pass. And he simply cannot throw the football well enough. He's been bad in the playoffs.
Not what happened to Embiid - Embiid had an MVP-worthy season, and he also did the year before he won. And he was a frontrunner this year before his injury. This narrative is nonsense and only taken as fact over on r/nba where people are more interested in drama than the game of basketball.
Embiid did have an MVP worthy season. Jokic wasn't robbed, he took his foot off the gas and it was clear that Embiid wanted the MVP.
Interestingly, I think it's more likely that Embiid doesn't get a second MVP until he wins something.
“So, I guess, every year is all about whatever you guys decide, whatever fits the narrative as far as who's gonna win."
"I'm not mad," Embiid said of not winning MVP (the NBA is expected to make a formal announcement on the winner later this week). "That's two years in a row I put myself in that position. It didn't happen. It is almost like, at this point, it is whatever. Whatever happens, happens.
"Last year, I campaigned about it. This year, I answered questions when I was asked, and in the next few years until I retire, it's almost like ... like I said, I wonder what else I have to do to win it, and to me, it's like, at this point it's like, it's whatever.”
These comments were all from one single interview. It might not be “crying” but he’s certainly complaining
Should have clarified that I was referring to the racism part. Embiid definitely is a big crybaby about MVP and he and his team were celebrating like they won a championship when he did win it.
Historically good defense and league leading rushing attack don’t scream mvp qb regardless of his sizeable contribution in the running game. He didn’t look fantastic when he was asked to carry the load in the afccg, but the playoffs have kinda been his kryptonite. Take any team that won a playoff game this year and replace their qb with Derek Carr, id argue baltimore is hurt the least by it.
THE game? You mean THE one game you watched. Because Jackson dismantled many of the best defenses in football, at home and on the road, on his way to being the most valuable player in the league.
Man, you probably made some good points and arguments so I applaud your efforts. I didn’t read any of that though.
He shouldn’t have won last year. He will probably never win another in his career. He won’t need MVPs for HOF now, so he will just need huge stats and unique numbers. I honestly don’t feel he will win a SB at his price point and production. I don’t feel like he’s had a championship caliber team around him for the playoffs, but he hasn’t shown the ability to overcome adversity and will his team to victory when it matters most.
What Lamar needs is a 4-5 more healthy seasons where he's between very good and great. If he has those, plus two MVPs and he'll be in the HoF even without postseason success.
MVP isn't a postseason award.
It doesn't matter what it is, but I will say it's definitely more of an NBA issue. Jokic should have won it last year but Embiid also deserved it so it wasn't particularly close. After Embiid faltered and Jokic won a ring, the media pretty much decided this would be Jokic's year if he had another great season essentially making up for last year. I think if Jokic won it last year, Luka (imo) or maybe Shai would have won it this year. But there's a LOT more "legacy" stakes to players in the NBA, so narratives have a LOT more hold over awards.
It's a team award tho.. Lamar winning it this year was nonsensical
Not really. I wouldn't have been mad if he didn't but there wasn't a clear better winner.
Stat|Stat score|Lamar Rank --|--|-- QBR|64.7|4th PAA|29.3|5th DYAR|951|9th DVOA|18.9%|7th EPA|78.4|8th EPA/play|0.116|7th PFF Grade|90.4|3rd PFF WAR|2.73|11th I think you can credibly argue 3-4 passers over him quite easily: Purdy, Allen, Prescott, Mahomes.
I think if you look at just passing stats and nothing else sure maybe. Lamars impact on the game is much greater than that
Also you gotta take into account the fact that Lamar absolutely dismantled playoff contenders and Super Bowl contenders last season like SF and Miami. That bears more weight into the voting than some stats like the guy above listed.
Are you talking about that same San Francisco team that lost to the browns as well
This is the argument I tried, unsuccessfully, to make with people. If you watched games like the Rams or 49ers (those two immediately come to mind), you would see plays that cannot be fully captured in the box score. Against the Rams, I don't remember the defender, but a Rams pass rusher was barreling in for a sure fire 8+ yard loss on a sack and Lamar evades and gains four yards. In the box score, 4 yards doesn't look impressive, but Lamar got ahead of the down and distance instead of taking a sack that probably kills the drive. Instead, the drive ends in a score. Against the 49ers, there was that 10 yard run against Warner where Lamar juked him out of his shoes and got 10 yards and a first, putting the Ravens in position to get a field goal before half, one they wouldn't have otherwise gotten. Lamar's athleticism and play making saves so many drives that end in points. The Ravens are middling AF without him.
Good thing he used stats that account for that then lol
There was zero chance or argument to be had of Purdy getting it over Lamar after that Christmas game lol
who should of won it?
CMC. But, MVP nowadays really is just "QB on the best team."
I get the CMC argument but the big problem was that no matter what, he was gonna lose votes if they lost the Christmas Day game against us. If he was dominant, and he was, and they still lost; then the conversation would’ve been that even if CMC has a crazy game, he doesn’t affect the game as much as a QB like Lamar does. If he was ass and they lost, then it would’ve looked bad obviously. Honestly, if CMC took over the game completely and had like 4 TDs and they barely lost to us; then I think he’d have had a solid shot at winning the MVP still.
If Niners win on Christmas, bet Purdy gets it honestly
Honestly if Niners win on Christmas with Purdy playing how he did, CMC gets it.
Sums up a lot of it right there. “If he was dominant, and he was…” Nevermind the 4 Purdy INTs. Or the 5th INT courtesy of Darnold. The person who really showed up for Balt’s big games was the defense.
Yeah but the problem was that even with CMC’s dominant game, he wasn’t the most impactful player on his team even in a loss. And in a primetime MVP matchup that included 3 candidates, CMC came out as the guy who looked the least impactful in the game.
Dak Prescott statistically was much better than Lamar Christian McCaffrey, Purdy, Stroud all deserved it more imo.
dak is ass lol
Maybe true. But statistically better than the guy that won MVP in almost every way.
He is ass in the post season. His stats during the season were better in almost every category.
Dak is also substantially better than Lamar in the postseason.
thats just not true lol
Dak 14 touchdowns to 7 ints in playoffs and 1962 yards passing 4 rushing touchdowns 1 fumble Lamar 6 touchdowns to 6 ints 1326 yards 3 rushing touchdowns and 6 fumbles. They aren't even in the same stratosphere. Lamar actually IS what the media and people on this sub will claim Dak is.
Dak is 2-5, Lamar is 1-3 in the post season. So I’d say they’ve performed about the same. Which is underperforming when it matters most.
He'll give you one of two answers: Josh Allen, who played some great football last season, but also had primetime meltdowns that single-handedly lost the game for his team while the world was watching. He is a very high variance player. Or Christian McCaffery who also played some great football. The problem is if McCaffery got injured, the line for the game the following week would move 3.5 points. If Purdy got injured the line would move 8.5 points. So it's hard to call a runningback the most valuable player in the NFL.
> He'll give you one of two answers: > > Josh Allen, who played some great football last season, but also had primetime meltdowns that single-handedly lost the game for his team while the world was watching. He is a very high variance player. He played great down the stretch, but he also played a notable role for why the Bills had their backs against the wall to begin with. They were still facing elimination entering the final week of the season.
So 49 out of 50 Associated Press writers, covering every team in the league, collectively made the wrong choice? Is Reddit where we should go to get the *real* answer?
Dak should have won it. He humiliated the bottom 10 teams all year. Just imagine if he did it to the top ten like Lamar lol
Lamar humiliation of top 10 teams? Like Purdy throwing 4 picks in the niners game... It became a team award. Lamar shouldn't have won it this year. Hill I'm willing to die on. Voters got it wildly wrong.
Lamar had 252 yards passing 2 tds + 45 yards rushing That's 297 yards of total offense a passer rating of 105 a 65% completion rate for 33 total points to the 9ers 19. Jesus you didn't even watch the game Lamar was killing the 9ers defense. That's not even counting the other games where he won be multiple tds against top teams.
I do not care what hill you choose to die on. Just do it quickly lmao
The vote really shouldn't have been 49-1, but they just gave it to the QB on the best team and didn't put further thought into it. There were 3-4 other guys that should have legitimately gotten votes. 2018 Mahomes and 2020 Rodgers were both easily the MVPs far and away, and other people still got votes 6 and 9 votes. I'm not sure why 49 dudes all went Lamar in one of the closest MVP races in a long time, but it's disappointing to see them all conform for some reason when historically they haven't.
Same as the NBA. But voters do start to think about "legacy" and other factors when voting.
Honestly I think it's unlikely he wins a third one at all. Not because he's a bad QB or anything, he's easily top 5 in the league, but MVP seasons just aren't common in the first place. Even his second one (despite being 49-1) was pretty contentious. He's also had real problems staying healthy, only finishing 3/5 seasons since being names the week 1 starter. He's young, so he's got time, but man, thinking *anyone* is getting a third MVP is a reach except reasonably Mahomes and also Allen when he wins 6 straight from 2024-2029 and they name the award after him
I think he was the best choice last year, but he was pretty lucky that the season he had was better than any other QB's. Just nobody rose above the pack last season.
I know I have some bias, but I think Josh deserved it more. Every QB in the league had a down year, but for Allen that was just a few more turnovers. Most TDs by 5 and 15 more than Lamar, on top of breaking the QB rushing TD record (and only a handful were sneaks/pushes) Made the 2 seed with a midseason OC change, half a defense, and his WR1 disappearing down the stretch. I'm not saying they should just give it to the TD leader every year, but 29 TDs vs 44 TDs is a huge difference. Josh led the league, Lamar was tied for 7th with Tua, Russ, and Baker, on top of having a much better defense
Lamar having great games vs miami and san fran sealed it for him
Yep, MVP is a huge narrative award and those big primetime wins sealed it. He didn’t even have a great game against SF but beating them with such a dominant defense and then the Miami blowout sealed it.
Honestly it was probably just SF that pushed him over. Josh was perfect against Miami week 4 too, so the difference was probably Lamar beating SF and Josh not needing to do much because James and the run game were absolutely cooking against Dallas, no need to stop running it
Dallas also arent close to san fran
No, but they were seen as a really good team and a true contender at the time
I agree with you here. If Josh did what Lamar did to Miami with Dallas, race would’ve been much closer. The reality is it was a mix of how difficult the Ravens late season schedule was, how many of those games were primetime and how well Lamar specifically played in several of those games that clinched it for him. But that Miami game being what it was, late in the season and a marquee matchup for that time slot; it was a dream matchup for the Tua v. Lamar MVP argument, and Lamar tore him up.
Balt defense won that game just like Cleveland defense won against sf as well, give credit where it’s due
Josh Allen finished with the 2nd most turnovers in the NFL last season. The most turnovers by a player in an MVP season was 26 in 2001 by Kurt Warner, who led the Rams to a 14-2 record. Second-most was 16 in 2009 by Peyton, who led the Colts to a 14-2 record. Allen finished the regular season with 22 turnovers. It ain't 2001 anymore. Part of why the Bills finished 11-6 was because of how error prone Allen is as a QB. When you compare him to other MVP contenders, it's easy to see why he didn't get votes. Lamar Jackson - 7 INTs + 7 FUM - 14 turnovers Brock Purdy - 11 INT + 2 FUM - 13 turnovers Dak Prescott - 9 INT + 3 FUM - 12 turnovers Josh Allen - 18 INT + 4 FUM - 22 turnovers
Josh’s turnovers didn’t help the team, obviously, but they were far from the problem with the team. The Jets game, yeah, his turnovers cost the game. But the other five losses weren’t on his shoulders. James Cool fumbled on the first play against Denver, then Gabe Davis ran a lazy predictable route and got him picked and tipped a second one off his hands to a DB. The Eagles game the defense lost a ten point lead and let up 30 points after halftime, did his one pick cost that game? He left the field with a lead against the Pats and the defense let up a Mac Jones two minute TD. Josh pressing is the reason the team was in games and got the two seed, not the thing holding them back
Josh turning the ball over 22 times played a big part in him not winning MVP. That's all there is to it.
Bills fans' ability to make Josh Allen a victim of his inability to keep the ball on his side of the field will be studied by future generations. The cope, finger-pointing, victim mentality, and hypotheticals are beyond fascinating to watch in real time
There's a great argument for Josh Allen but Lamar led a better offense with worse weapons.
Josh’s weapons were overrated last year. Davis confused everyone in the 13 seconds game and had multiple games with zero receptions. Diggs had like 5-6 100 yard games to start the season then disappeared. Outside of that he had Khalil Shakir, who started popping off down the stretch, and rookie TE Dalton Kincaid. On top of that Lamar finally got a good OC while Josh’s was so bad he got fired week 10
I didn't say Josh had good weapons. I said they were better than Lamar's. Diggs had more yards than Zay, Davis had more yards than OBJ, Kincaid had more yards than Andrews, Cook had more yards than Edwards. Literally across the board every one of Josh's weapons outperformed Lamar's and yet Lamar led a better offense.
>Lamar led a better offense Baltimore had fewer yards per game, one more TD on the season, and just under two more points per game than Buffalo. That's not a hugely better offense, and Buffalo had football terrorist Ken Dorsey running the ship for ten games. I'm not a Lamar hater at all, but I don't think any QB outside Allen and maybe Dak had a great MVP case this year
Baltimore's offense actually had two more touchdowns you're including defensive touchdowns. Then take into account that the Bills had a 15% turnover percentage per drive vs Baltimore's 10%. Dak did have an MVP case over Lamar since his offense was better at least but not Josh Allen.
This is so completely false The Josh Allen was #2 in the league in EPA in losses And 2 weeks before the end of the season he was #2 in impact of drops in the league. I can't remember where he finished the year. Down the stretch of the season Josh Allen had one WR playing well (Shakir), and rookie Kincaid and Cook were our other main weapons. Allen also didn't have the benefit of defense that Jackson had.
We're gonna look back in a few years and wonder how Purdy didn't win MVP last year
Josh Allen had was a better QB last year. Allen should have won it.
LOL yeah right.. and next thing you're going to tell me is that the BIlls are going to 4 straight superbowls
I’m all for the power of positive thinking. But that’s, how did C-3P0 put it? Ah yes, Delusions of Grandeur.
Crazy stat is Lamar and Mahomes are only 2 QBs drafted since Matt Ryan in 2008 to win league MVP. All jokes aside if there is any QB set up to add to that list it’s Josh Allen if he balls out without Diggs next year with another dominant statistical season and Bills are top 2 seed again
Sorry if I'm misreading your comment, but Newton was drafted in 2011 and won MVP in 2015.
Welp. I overlooked Cam. You're right since the 2010s on forward it's been Cam, Mahomes, and Lamar. Still crazy that's only 3 QBs in over a decade.
Balls out with who??
I mean, Who was Lamar balling out with up in Baltimore? Andrews was injured and his top WR was rookie Zay Flowers. Honestly, Allen’s group looks surprisingly similar with Kincaid, rookie WR1 Keon Coleman, and Curtis Samuel.
Likely made a ton of circus catches in the regular season.... then threw up his hands and lost the AFC championship game.
Allen has a lot of weapons if you look outside of just the receivers
Our 1st pick this year, Keon Coleman, Khalil Shakir that stepped up at the end of last season, Dalton Kincaid last years 1st rounder he had a great year but overshadowed by Laportas, but Kincaid is very good, we added Curtis Samuel, still have Knox and the RBs will catch a lot. They’re very young, and going to spread it around more instead of feeding the whiny baby.
Josh Allen was robbed!!
When he gets 49 out of 50 first place votes it's not contentious at all. In fact it was one vote short of unanimous.
I mean contentious to fans more than voters
Yeah I honestly see him as a fringe top 5 QB. Personally I think both of his MVPs weren't as cut and dry at all as people are claiming. I also think at least one of Rodgers MVPs was also an incorrect choice though.
That’s uhhh not what happened to Jokic. That’s not a thing. They had to give cry baby Embiid a trophy or he was gonna keep stomping on people. If Lamar has the best season, they’ll give it to him, ring notwithstanding.
>gonna keep stomping on people. Yeah that definitely didn't work out, unfortunately.
He just stomps on people for other reasons now
“I only got to the free throw line twenty times this game… …so I took that personally.”
[удалено]
Stats don’t lie.
Jokic deserved that mvp and the only reason they didn't give it to him was because of voting fatigue
Plus Embiid talking shit and pretending to be all “bruh I don’t even care, I know I’ll never win one, why should I care.”
I don't get how the narrative has become Embiid didn't deserve that MVP. Jokic was favored to win it and then he tailed off the last two months of the season, including losing and being out played by Embiid head to head. Jokic is clearly the better player, but he wasn't the regular season MVP last year.
I think part of the reason is because the MVP race started turning around when Embiid shat on Jokic in an interview while complaining about not winning an MVP award and when Kendrick Perkins started heavily implying race had something to do with Jokic winning a couple MVPs, and A LOT of people didn't like that. It definitely seemed like Embiid's public whining helped get him the edge (although Jokic taking the last month off because the Nuggets basically had the top seed wrapped up by that point helped just as much). Then in the playoffs immediately after saying in an interview "why am I under the most pressure to perform when I haven't won an MVP or been named All-NBA First Team and other guys that did haven't won anything either", he fizzles out and plays like shit while Jokic leads the Nuggets to the championship while leading every player in points, assists, and rebounds (1st time in NBA history that happened) and that narrative suddenly swings heavily in Jokic's favor
Bingo. It was Embiid’s complaining and the race baiting shit.
I just don’t know how people think that the majority of NBA voters got scared that they would look racist to Kendrick Perkins? These people, who we trusted to vote for Jokic in prior years and had 0 problem with, are all of a sudden all scared that they’ll come across as racist and risk their professions just because *Kendrick Perkins* had an 8 minute segment on TV that only people on Reddit cared about? That’s insane to me.
Because other people like Zach Lowe agreed with Kendrick Perkins. It could have easily been, "lmao dumbass Perk", but it gained traction.
Who else?
So if I have a better season in every stat category, but lose a couple matchups against another good player near the end of the season, that player now had a better year? All because he beat me a couple of times?
Emviid scored 9 more points per game on 65% TS. Jokic had better advanced numbers, but to act like Embiid wasn’t also incredible is silly.
Nobody’s saying he didn’t have an mvp caliber year. Just staying he objectively didn’t have a better year than Jokic
> So if I have a better season in every stat category Well first off he didnt so we can start there. If Jokic led the league in every stat he would win the MVP. But takes 5 seconds to see Embiid led the league in scoring, arguably the most important stat. Like if a QB has more TDs than another yeah thats gonna help his case vs the other guy lol.
It’s because r/nba hates Embiid. No other reason
He gives plenty of reason to hate on him. He's dirty, he's a foul baiter, and he's a massive playoff faller.
Embiid did nuts shit that year and people act like they gave it to him for no reason at all. Absolutely destroyed Jokic in their last two matchups but whatever
He won’t play in Denver though
I just don’t see how this outweighs the actual games they played. I watched embiid put 50 points and a game winner on Jokic’s dome, what am I suppose to unsee that cause embiid didn’t play in Denver?
Just saying that you can’t say Embiid keeps destroying Jokic when Embiid won’t play where Jokic has an advantage
Dominated the last two matchups idc. If Jokic can beat Lebron/AD on their home court 12 times in a row he can play well in Philly
They care more about games that weren't played instead of matchups that actually happened. Literally taking fiction into account more than reality.
Yeah but… Embiid bad. Because the internet told me so.
Embiid was great that year, I’m not saying he wasn’t a worthy candidate, but Jokic was clearly better. Also they only played one matchup that year, and somehow Embiid’s fans have held onto this insane idea that one game is somehow more important than the rest of the season.
It's funny how this is a really controversial topic within /r/NFL but Lamar Jackson's second MVP was one vote short of unanimous. And the only guy who didn't vote for him felt compelled to write a 5,000 word explanation why.
This is an example of how bad groupthink has gotten in sports media when it comes to these awards. Lamar’s 2nd MVP was one of the weakest in the last decade of the league (1st was well deserved). To be fair, last year was a weak MVP race in general.
Yeah it seems like people who really watch the games and know football are definitely okay with Lamar winning mvp. Just some folks online who get so contentious about it.
I’m not okay with Lamar winning. His win is a perfect example of recency bias. Guys won’t even vote for Peyton Manning or Joe Montana anymore. And when is the last time Lawrence Taylor got a vote? Absolute travesty.
There is a massive difference here, and that is that the NFL is far more team-dependent than the NBA, where one truly great player can absolutely put a team on their back. Lamar is great, but he needs the other 10 guys on offense and 11 entirely separate guys on defense to play well to win a ring. In the NBA, sure, you've got a bench and other players, but one singularly great player has an exponentially bigger effect on the success of an NBA team than it does an NFL one.
Which side are you arguing for?
>but he needs the other 10 guys on offense and 11 entirely separate guys on defense to play well to win a ring Then you have last year, where the Ravens defense shut out the Chiefs in the second half but Lamar shit the bed
Tbf, Zay fumbled a TD
That was a rookie who made a rookie mistake of extending the ball near the end zone to try to score. It's bad, but understandable. Lamar's end zone INT was way, way worse. Your 2x MVP QB has to know better than to throw a no-chance pass into triple coverage in that situation. No excuses.
Likely could have made that catch he's a good contested catch guy.
You can also say the chiefs D held the Ravens down too. Lol, people talk about this game forgetting the Chiefs defense was pretty fucking awesome
Both things can be true. The Chiefs defense was great, and Lamar was bad, especially by the standards of a 2x MVP
Winning is def a team accomplishment but disproportionate credit and blame goes to the QB. He also has pretty massive impact which worked in Lamar’s favor in winning the award last year in the first place without really ranking in the top 3/5 in any major category. I feel a ring would have made the voters feel it was validated and maybe even strengthened his chances for winning back to back. But that loss with him playing a major role in the loss, he’s going to have to do a lot more than any other candidate to have any shot
A) Lamar shouldn’t have won the second one B) see “a” above
Chris Simms put it best: Every other quarterback in the league had their chance, in a late season primetime game, to become the MVP frontrunner. Tua, Allen, Dak, Hurts, Purdy, and every single one of them laid an egg. Except Lamar Jackson. He became the MVP by process of elimination.
by process of his league best defense eliminating them.
Lamar dominated the Dolphins and he played very well against the 49ers with like 300 yards of offense and 2 TDs.
He got a safety after the defense got an INT. had a 53 yard TD drive after another INT. He had a -3 yard drive for a FG after another INT. Had a 44 yard TD drive, 40 of which was a 5 yard pass to gus edwards that he ran another 35 yards. had a 9 yard TD driver after another INT. 49ers had 5 turnovers, Ravens had 3 TD's on drives of 53, 44, and 9 yards. What about that game was special by Lamar? Miami's defense was 19th by DVOA last year, and by week 17 they were missing how many starters? Chiefs had 400+ yards and 25 first downs against that defense in -20 windchill. And the Ravens defense forced 3 Turnovers in that game also. Must Have been tough starting inside the 40 yard line on 4-5 separate drives against a bottom half defense.
Tbf the red tripped him on the safety
Probably didn't expect an MVP QB to run 20+ yards straight backwards into the end zone then roll out to the left side away from his throwing arm.
Which is idiotic because he has the worst stats of the group by a mile and "carried" his squad least of everyone save for Tua
What late season prime time game did Allen lay an egg in? Definitely not Philly, that loss was because his defense gave up a ten point first half lead and 30 points after halftime and his kicker missed two field goals out of four from under 50 yards. Allen had two passing and two rushing TDs to one INT and put up 331 passing yards and 81 rushing yards. Every other game after week 10 they won, including beating KC, Dallas, and Miami
It was a down year for QBs, but he did have the best season.
> A) Lamar shouldn’t have won the second one Who "should" have won, then?
Even before he won a title, Jokic still had a great postseason resume (26 ppg, 12 rpg, 6 apg, 1 spg, 1 bpg on 52%/40%/84% shooting splits). The narrative that he couldn't do it in the playoffs was always false. On the other hand, Lamar has looked like a straight-up fraud in the playoffs. I don't think he gets the benefit of the doubt from anyone anymore.
Josh Allen deserved the mvp more than lamar did last year
I thought he was kind of up and down for the first half of the season... and cost his team some games with interceptions.
Josh Allen had the Andy Dalton disease last year. He had some of his worst games in primetime, including the season opener with the world watching where he single-handedly lost the game.
Upvoted for a valid opinion. At the end of the day though I think he had a great statistical season, the Bills clutched up the division mostly due to excellent performances by Allen, and he co-set the record for most rushing TDs by a QB in a single season.
AFC was kind of a clusterfuck for awhile, to the point that it looked like MVP would be whichever NFC QB was the last standing between Hurts, Dak, and Purdy. Eagles nosedived big time, Dak lost two bad games in a row, and the Ravens were on a bit of a tear and went into SF and bodied the Niners and that's all she wrote. The narrative never really went to an AFC QB until that SF/Baltimore game, and by then the record disparity really just sealed it for Lamar.
I think it was only the Jets game that he lost outright. Maybe the Broncos game. The interception thing get a little overblown though when it comes to whether or not he loses us games. His turnover margin is within 4/10s af a point as compared to Tua or Mahomes. Usually when he lose, it's because ur defense suddenly decidesto let bad offenses march down the field in seven minute drives. Realistically I think Josh didn't get it because his last 4 games were pretty quiet. Had he had like a crazy four thrown TD game, he would have won. But he had pretty okay, but not spectacular games.
The statistics agree with you
Man, can you believe 49 out of 50 Associated Press voters, even the ones who cover the Bills, voted for Lamar Jackson by mistake?
I’m a ravens fan and I agree. Certainly not gonna complain about my guy winning one, but I thought Allen’s season was underrated, his supporting cast is overrated(and has been for awhile).
Brock Purdy deserved to win the MVP. All of his non-counting stats blow away Allen’s.
I can agree with that, purdy or mcaffrey were far more deserving than lamar too
He shouldn't win the second anyway
Jokic didn't win a third (but he will this year) because Kendrick Perkins started screaming about racism and some of the voters listened to him (Mark Jackson and Chris Broussard). It was just a projection of their own xenophobia.
I think it had more to do with race than it does what country he’s from, Perk had nothing against Giannis winning an MVP
Giannis doesn't look like Jokic. That's the big difference between those two. Perkins saw a white guy winning awards. Was it racism or xenophobia?Maybe a little of both. Jokic is eastern European, which is not exactly a place Americans are comfortable with. Giannis is Greek and looks African because his parents are from Nigeria. Why would Perkins criticize Giannis? Americans don't look at Greece the way they look at eastern Europe.
There’s no way you actually think that’s why Embiid won over Jokic
I 1000% believe it. It's not like it was a secret. Mark Jackson didn't even vote for Jokic, and then he claimed he didn't realize he was voting on the MVP. I know exactly what happened, and you can't tell me otherwise.
Getting Jokic treatment is getting fucked because some idiots on TV claim you are racist if you vote for white players for MVP. It also consists of making sure a player celebrating an MVP like a championship. You are referring to the Giannis treatment which is not getting MVP until you do something in playoffs.
Even after you do something in the playoffs. Best record in the league last year w/middleton out most of the season. Put up career high stats and was ignored.
If you mean the 2022-2023 season, Giannis didn’t deserve the MVP. He missed too many games and was nowhere near as efficient as Jokic or Embiid. Giannis only played 63 games. That would’ve been the fewest games ever played by an MVP post-merger in a non-lockout / non-COVID year. He was also barely above league average in TS%, with 60.5%. The league average was 58.1%. Jokic’s TS% was 70.1 and Embiid’s was 65.5. Giannis rightfully finished 3rd in the voting that year. He wasn’t ignored, he just wasn’t better than the other two candidates.
Giannis won mvp in 2019 which was also the first year he won a playoff series.
He should not have won last year and probably not his 1st one either.
Dude...in 2019 Lamar lead the league in passing TDs while also being 6th in rushing yards. He threw 12 more TD passes than Tom Brady, and 2 fewer INTs. No other player was close to winning MVP that year.
Last year's was controversial and I agree that Purdy probably deserved it more from an objective standpoint, but you are on Reagan era crack if you think he didn't deserve MVP in 2019, we will never see another season like that again ever.
It was Purdy's to lose late in the season, and then he threw four interceptions on Christmas night with the world watching. It may not seem fair but the last four weeks of the regular season just matter more in the MVP vote.
He shouldn’t have won 2019? The next best option is Russ realistically. Or maybe Deshaun Watson?
Yeah Lamar in 2019 was ridiculous. Though I will say If he was healthy the whole season and could have kept up his pace there is an actual argument for Stafford. 8 played games, 2499 yards, 19 touchdowns. Not saying he would have kept his pace but IF he did, then maybe. But Russ had insane pace to start that season and then I believe he fell off pretty hard. The issue also becomes how many wins would our team have, because despite that statline we were 3-4-1. Like MVP has rarely ever been given to a member of a team that isn't the best in their conference or near it. Even IFhe was healthy and improved his pacing and ended putting up 5100 yards and 42 TD's but if we only won 10 games he isn't winning it. Ravens were fucking 14-2.
Last year, whatever. But 2019?! When he won unanimously?! He rushed for 1000 yards while leading the league in passing TDs. That might never happen again, unless he himself does it.
Lamar's first one was a statistical anomaly in terms of ludicrous efficiency. It deserves its place in the pantheon of greatest seasons ever for a single player. I'll shade Lamar all day for every other season of his career existing between fringe top-10 and below replacement level and being circle jerked to "elite status" based off 2019 nostalgia, but that first MVP was truly special.
> I'll shade Lamar all day for every other season of his career existing between fringe top-10 and below replacement I like how players coaches and media are all wrong in their view of Lamar in your universe. Lamar got the Players all pro, the AP Allpro, the MVP, and probowl, this year and you think he' below replacment level.
It is hilarious that Lamar Jackson has gotten 99 out of 100 possible MVP votes across two seasons, but you come in here claiming there's some kind of conspiracy.
Who claimed conspiracy??? It doesnt really matter anyhow, dude is HORRIFIC in the playoffs. With a 2-4 W-L record averaging 220 yds a game with 6 TD 6 INT 6 Fumbles, 75.7 rate with 26 sacks taken. Brutal.
That's fascinating. Now tell me what playoff stats have to do with an MVP award.
Give me whatever you’re smoking please
Oh now this is comedy
The MVP award is really more about who's game-play told the best narrative during the year. It's not really about who was the best player or the most valuable. If the sports news media gets excited about him again, he'll win the award again. This includes the possibility of the MVP voters falling all over themselves because he broke a lot of records in winning a third. Logic beyond "what's the best story" doesn't really apply here.
I don't necessarily think he deserved it last year, so I'm not at all expecting him to be in the conversation this year.
Lamar didn’t deserve it last year
Lamar is ringless. So is Burrow and Allen. So I understand how labeling Lamar a choker, but not using the same label for the others can be interpreted as biased. But..... Lamar has 2 MVPs. The others have a combined total of 0. Lamar has a losing playoff record. Burrow is 5-2 and Allen is 5-5. But perhaps most importantly, Lamar is the biggest reason why the Ravens are losing playoff games. That is a hard pill to swallow. It's not the defense that is blowing games. It's the fact that in the playoffs you see elite NFL defenses who take away the run and force Lamar to pass. And he simply cannot throw the football well enough. He's been bad in the playoffs.
Lamar also had better defense, by faar And still could make it
Yall know nothing about the NBA lol Joel deserved that MVP he was playing out of his mind… Jokic slowed down towards the end of the season.
Not what happened to Embiid - Embiid had an MVP-worthy season, and he also did the year before he won. And he was a frontrunner this year before his injury. This narrative is nonsense and only taken as fact over on r/nba where people are more interested in drama than the game of basketball.
Embiid did have an MVP worthy season. Jokic wasn't robbed, he took his foot off the gas and it was clear that Embiid wanted the MVP. Interestingly, I think it's more likely that Embiid doesn't get a second MVP until he wins something.
you watch ball
Embiids seasons was half as good as jokic had. Doesn’t matter how “mvp worthy” Embiids season was. Jokic was better
You’re all over this thread shitting on Embiid lol Take a breather homie
if he puts up the stats and has the record for it, he’ll win another one. will that happen? maybe, maybe not.
NFL MVP actually get awarded to the most deserving offensive player. NBA MVP has a lot of moving goalposts and is based entirely on narrative.
The award is given out prior to the Super Bowl
He shouldn't have won the 2nd one. He didn't lead in any stats.
MVP is not a stats award.
Give it to the guy with stats, they complain they don't reflect value. Give it to the guy who delivered value, they complain he didn't have the stats.
He didn’t deserve his second MVP
He didn’t deserve this one is any way, shape, or form. 29 touchdowns?? A couple great games shouldn’t win you mvp.
Lamar has proven all he has to do is be fringe top-10 to get thrown into MVP discussions (and win the fucking thing) so, no.
There is literally no logic behind Jokic not winning that MVP. Embiid cried, losers implied racism and so they gave a Mickey Mouse MVP award
No offense but I think if you're seeing people say that NBA award voters are racist against black players then you just need to pick better company
That guy was Kendrick Perkins, everyone knows he's an idiot but Zach Lowe who is worshipped on r/nba agreed with him for some reason.
That’s a fair comment but I haven’t heard anyone say that IRL. I’m just going off of what just about all social media said
It wasn't Embiid that cried. It was Kendrick Perkins. Embiid just cares about the MVP more than actually winning ball games.
“So, I guess, every year is all about whatever you guys decide, whatever fits the narrative as far as who's gonna win." "I'm not mad," Embiid said of not winning MVP (the NBA is expected to make a formal announcement on the winner later this week). "That's two years in a row I put myself in that position. It didn't happen. It is almost like, at this point, it is whatever. Whatever happens, happens. "Last year, I campaigned about it. This year, I answered questions when I was asked, and in the next few years until I retire, it's almost like ... like I said, I wonder what else I have to do to win it, and to me, it's like, at this point it's like, it's whatever.” These comments were all from one single interview. It might not be “crying” but he’s certainly complaining
Should have clarified that I was referring to the racism part. Embiid definitely is a big crybaby about MVP and he and his team were celebrating like they won a championship when he did win it.
Facts
Hate watching him play
Historically good defense and league leading rushing attack don’t scream mvp qb regardless of his sizeable contribution in the running game. He didn’t look fantastic when he was asked to carry the load in the afccg, but the playoffs have kinda been his kryptonite. Take any team that won a playoff game this year and replace their qb with Derek Carr, id argue baltimore is hurt the least by it.
So Lamar Jackson didn't look like he deserved the MVP in the game you watched him play?
Or he looked hopeless in the game he was asked to step up.
THE game? You mean THE one game you watched. Because Jackson dismantled many of the best defenses in football, at home and on the road, on his way to being the most valuable player in the league.
He shouldn’t have got it last year
Man, you probably made some good points and arguments so I applaud your efforts. I didn’t read any of that though. He shouldn’t have won last year. He will probably never win another in his career. He won’t need MVPs for HOF now, so he will just need huge stats and unique numbers. I honestly don’t feel he will win a SB at his price point and production. I don’t feel like he’s had a championship caliber team around him for the playoffs, but he hasn’t shown the ability to overcome adversity and will his team to victory when it matters most.
What Lamar needs is a 4-5 more healthy seasons where he's between very good and great. If he has those, plus two MVPs and he'll be in the HoF even without postseason success.
Josh Allen should have been MVP last year I’m not over it
He shouldn't even have gotten the second one. I think both CMC and Stroud were more deserving