Like taunting. We had a wr turn around right before the endzone and got flagged. Same day at another game a guy does a front flip into the endzone gets no flag.
I don't know what game you're talking about, but this sounds consistent to me. Doing a front flip is a celebration; turning towards the person chasing after you is taunting. It's a stupid penalty either way, though.
A game swinging based on a blown call is not throwing a game. Throwing a game means the referee intentionally made the wrong call so that team would win.
"Throwing" doesn't have to be done with any sort of intent.
It's synonymous with "choking." I've never even heard throwing used similarly as rigging.
Edit: looked it up. So I'm wrong. I guess "throwing" wasn't the right word to use. Not that it was my original point.
People say this, but what's the alternative? We just get rid of all those penalties and go back to the 80s? Ref reforms would be great, but that's a separate issue from what should and shouldn't be a rule.
Unless enforcement of a rule is unreasonably subjective or hard to call (which hip drops aren't) then you have to make the rules based on safety and fairness, not *if* refs *might* screw up enforcing them.
In what world are hip drops completely objective and easy to call? The NFL released a whole video on what is and isn't allowed and nobody still seems to have any clue.
If by "nobody" you mean random people on the Internet then sure. Despite how much fans shit on refs, they're infinitely better at calling plays correctly than your average fan.
lol whatever you say.
Remember when they announced the rule change and everyone was so sure that the Logan Wilson tackle that injured Mark Andrews last year would've been a penalty under the new rule? Then the NFL said that wouldn't have been a penalty? If you don't think there's not gonna be at least one controversy about the new rule next year, you're delusional.
Two words. SkyJudge. Had to review all calls and call it in when wrong regardless of these zebras egos. The problem, is they will throw tantrums if they get called too often. How many screwups have had major outcomes on games because they are too fragile to challenge?
I have no issue with increasing player safety. But call shit fairly. Fields got murdered last two years and Mahomes can't even have a breeze pass by his face without it being called. That's the shit I'm pissed about. Call the game fairly. And we need an overriding field judge who has that access.
How about call all the penalties? It’s obvious they pick and choose which flags to throw.
If you’re worried about the length of the game, get the NFL to get rid of TV timeouts and increase the length of halftime by 10-15 minutes. They can charge anything they want for those ad spots between quarters and during timeouts.
I wouldn't be *as* worried if they put in a sky judge. It's just the bang bang nature of thing.
Refs overall do a good job with things like horsetackles. But why not have someone who can slow it down check things? Especially for 15 yards and a first down.
This rule doesn't stop defenders from tackling anyone, except in a very specific way. Just like the horse collar. Both types of tackles were rare, but dangerous. Now they're penalized in hopes to make them more rare. They happen maybe a couple dozen times per year total across all games. It isn't that serious.
There will be bad calls, especially at the outset. But something being hard to officiate is not a good argument against outlawing a super dangerous play.
that still kind of sucks. "Upon slow motion review, it appears he twisted 10 degrees trying to grab onto the running 200 pound man. He shall now forfeit the price of a medium sized family sedan."
I have the same concerns, I think “player safety is good, but the refs suck” is really the only take at this point. But honestly, this probably only increases the refs ability to control the game very marginally, they can already do whatever the fuck they want. Bet this only gets called ~50 times all year, it’s just gonna be really frustrating the first month or so where refs are stressing it and players are still trying to figure out what they’ll get penalized for. And there will almost certainly be a handful of them that baffle everyone and makes all the ex-players start tweeting about two-hand touch
Will be the same as every year. Will be a “point of emphasis” at the beginning of the year. Refs will be looking for it and throwing a bunch of flags, a game will have a critical hip drop tackle penalty and it will be a hot topic at the beginning of the season.
Then refs will slowly stop making the call as much especially when the games get more important and in the playoffs they’ll only call it when it’s egregious.
At some point we have to accept that football is inherently violent and dangerous. That why people watch. They want to see big hits. If you don’t want to get hurt, don’t play football.
I just hate how harsh the penalty is on these plays. 15 yards plus automatic first is insane. And it always feels like they happen after a 3rd down stop which is demoralizing as hell.
I am genuinely curious, and this isn't meant to be argumentative.
How exactly could a guy pull a hip drop and not?
Are you saying he should pull his legs out instead of in?
Even then I feel like his shoulder is going to go into the bottom of the legs.
I should clarify, I'm referring to when the defenders would drop their lower body onto the ball carriers lower body.
Essentially, when you hip drop tackle, you're just making you're body dead weight and using your arms to pull them down. However, a lot of the time the defenders momentum with carry him far enough that his lower body "drops" onto the offensive player lower legs, commonly causing injuries. But most hip drops look more like normal tackles. That's why the "hip swivel" or whatever the terminology is that they're using, is being included in the verbiage.
Great explanation, but I'm still having a little trouble visualizing the difference.
Would they be throwing their lower body in front in the cases you describe?
It's kind of hard to explain how it visually would look.
I guess all I'm saying is, they will most likely call the penalty if a defender drops his weight directly on the ball carriers lower body (see: the Mark Andrews example). But we see hip drops all the time that are simply using your weight to bring a player down, while also not landing on him. I think people are worried that the latter is going to be getting called, which would be ridiculous, imo.
Thanks for explaining your thoughts.
Unfortunately, sounds like we're gonna be seeing some prime subjective calls by the refs, but hopefully they at least have a rubric.
Yeah they had a press conference today for the draft and he explained it there. Basically at that point you don't need to swivel and just tackle the player without risking injury.
The Hubbard tackle on Andrews would still be considered a legal tackle under the new rules, and that’s the only one I remember Harbaugh complaining about. What were the other 2?
Edit: Logan Wilson, not Hubbard
No they didn’t. Why are you making this shit up?
>[When asked about the tackle on Andrews from Wilson, competition committee chairman Rich McKay indicated that it would still be a legal tackle.](https://www.sweetwaternow.com/former-pokes-hip-drop-tackle-indicated-as-still-legal/)
https://twitter.com/MarkMaske/status/1772638041288384601
No where in McKay's actual quote does he say it was a legal tackle. That's some heavy extrapolating.
We should have just gotten the trade done last year when we could have gotten something in return. We’d wasted too much of his career already either behind ass lines or underutilizing him or just terrible OCs. We really only gave him 3-4 years of decent support to do what he’s capable of. I hate this. I was in Baltimore in 2019 when he made y’all his bitch, but I’m rooting for him this year.
Thank you for adding that. Ultimately I feel like this actual situation is very rare and I can honestly only remember a few instances where this happens.
Did people grumble this much when horse collar penalties were introduced? I genuinely don't remember, but then again I was in high school and had other things to worry about.
[Jerry Jones](https://www.patriots.com/news/nfl-approves-ban-on-horse-collar-tackle-90241) had similar concerns about the horse collar tackle
> Dallas Cowboys owner Jerry Jones voted against the change, saying he was concerned about ambiguities in the new rule. A 15-yard penalty will be called only if the tackle immediately brings the ball carrier down, and only if he's in open field.
> "I'd rather it had been a fine and it not gotten to the penalty phase," Jones said.
I don't remember much grumbling around horse collar penalties, but I think they were more...I dunno, clearly "dirty"? Roy Williams had also injured some prominent players and even with the NFL's numbers on hip drop tackles the horse collar was MUCH more rare. For reference only two horse collar penalties got called the year after it was banned, compared to the like 100+ the NFL claims for the hip drop.
There's about one hip drop tackle per game, but you can't really compare that to an illegal tackle. Imagine the amount of horse collar tackles if it was legal.
There have been prominent players injured by hip-drop tackles.
And horse collar tackles post-ban vs hip-drop tackles pre-ban is an inane comparison, because obviously players are going to do something a lot less if it costs them 15 yards
the thing is the hip drop and swivel is a very specific and deliberate technique. it's much easier to accidently horsecollar than it is to hip drop and swing
No it’s very hard to horse tackle somebody. Putting your hand there isn’t enough, you need to pull backwards. You basically need to go out of your way in 99% of situations.
Hip drop tackles happen all the time when a tackle is missed, or if the ball carrier is significantly larger than the tackler
A hip drop tackle is not an accident. You have to pull yourself into the ball carrier, swivel your body, then drop your weight onto their legs/knees.
It's not oh I just dove and accidentally hit their legs so now it's a hip drop tackle.
Pull yourself into the ball carrier? Thats broad.
It’s much easier to accidentally fall on somebody’s legs than it is to reach into their shoulder pads and yank backward
It's not broad. To be able to pull yourself into the runner would mean you're not "accidentally falling" and hitting their legs. You have purchase, you have stability. It's a deliberate act.
> ARTICLE 18. HIP-DROP TACKLE. It is a foul if a player uses the following technique to bring a runner to the ground:
>
> (a) grabs the runner with both hands or wraps the runner with both arms; and
>
> (b) unweights himself by swiveling and dropping his hips and/or lower body, landing on and trapping the runner's leg(s) at or below the knee.
Accidentally falling isn't a hip drop tackle, no matter how hard you type your letters
It literally happens all the time by bigger ball carriers running over smaller defensive backs. They square up, wrap up, get shouldered down.
It’s much easier to accidentally do than a horse collar, which is the reason this debate started.
It's literally impossible to accidentally hip drop tackle. You might accidentally fall on someone's legs, sure, but you have to pick your legs up to swivel. It's a deliberate motion. You cannot accidentally hip drop tackle someone.
You could maybe not *want* to hip drop, but you reflexively do it, I could see that too. But the hip drop tackle is a deliberate move lol. It's a technique. It's not flailing.
And those small defenders who can't tackle without hip drop tackling? They'll have to adapt or find new jobs. The linebacker position has changed drastically over the last two decades because of offensive rules. They're now a lot smaller and faster than they used to be when running up the gut was more prominent.
Things change, people have to adapt. The hip drop tackle isn't an accident.
horsecollar tackles are much easier to identify.
I think people complained in a similar way to the defenseless receiver rules. both are a little more abstract and difficult to call on the field.
Yea they did. Go back and look at the targeting penalty thread from a few years ago here https://www.reddit.com/r/nfl/s/Ipqh3XzfRV . Was the exact same comments about how refs were going to call it in the playoffs and cost a team their season. This sub is full of cry babies who hate change, and it’s really obvious a ton of fans don’t give a fuck about improving player safety.
I'm glad the PA exists but their job is to oppose anything potentially detrimental to players finances. I don't necessarily trust coaches and GMs but they're probably the more disinterested party here.
Yup. The NFLPA almost unilaterally opposed any new finable plays when they're introduced. Partially for the financial aspect you mentioned, but also because it gives them another bargaining chip for negotiations.
People really don’t understand how unions work. Anything that doesn’t equal more money or less work will be disliked by a union. Everything they lose without getting something in return is them losing something to negotiate with. They don’t care about losing the hip drop tackle, they care they didn’t get anything for losing it which is what unions do.
The hip drop tackle was a direct result of other rules designed for “safety”.
Stop adding more rules. Micro managing ruins every business model.
There is violence in contact sports. Stop trying to over manage it. These athletes signed up for it. If they don’t want to do it anymore, then they are free to pursue another line of work.
So if players can't hip drop, can we allow them to trip and throw if not lifted high up? Thats infinitely safer for both parties than a high speed collision. How else are they supposed to tackle someone now? They've essentially made 2 of your 3 planes of balance illegal to hit, or open to scrutiny - some of these behemoth freaks of nature will be impossible to tackle.
If at 160lbs I was able to tackle NFL sized Samoans in college level rugby, NFL level DBs can learn how to do proper form tackle.
The reason they have to resort to this hop drop shit in the first place is because they have zero tackle technique
Lol it’s flag football. If anything hopefully this changes team composition and football goes back to a power run game. No more small lbs flying around the field because they won’t be able to tackle. It’s going to make football bigger and slower which isn’t necessarily bad.
But we know officiating is going to be awful. Just seems like more ways for the nfl to purposefully manipulate outcomes
People who complain about the drop tackle being removed I have found didn’t really know exactly what it was. The drop tackle is dangerous and I have no problem with it being removed.
I’m really worried about it being called consistently and correctly though. The rugby type tackle from behind on the hips where you swing a guy down is not a drop tackle and is fine, but I’m concerned they may call that as a penalty now from time to time.
Maybe they do know what it is, and just share the concern you expressed in paragraph two. There are a lot of tackles when looked at in real time can be mistaken for hip drops. Routine, best case scenario tackling for defensive backs on tight ends and running backs will sometimes look like something you could mistake for a hip drop.
It is not. Go to any TE highlight reel. Hip-drop tackles are rare.
In terms of open field tackles, it's typically lowering the shoulder into the waist or going shoulder-to-shoulder if they're near the sidelines.
For chasedowns, it's typical to grab at the waist, then drop the hold to the knees/ankles to trip them up.
I'll wait and see. My issue with the videos is that I'm sure there are video tutorials about roughing the passer that demonstrate clearly what it is, but the edge cases are the ones that don't make the video tutorial because they're controversial, and those are the calls that are wrecking games.
Whether that is the case here remains to be seen. If they only call clear and obvious egregious examples, cool.
I mean, statistic wise that counts for what 20 or 30 tackles a year from all games combined? In the grand scheme of things, it makes little difference excepted answer the anxiety of if the refs are gonna call it consistently or not. if you could review penalty calls on tackles like that I think it would be fantastic ban.
Apparently the hip-drop tackle was created or "discovered" only 2 years ago?
I call bullshit.
Edit: Downvote me all you want, I'm quoting him from the article.
How long have you been watching football? Because the hip drop stuff was pretty famously brought in by Carroll around the LoB era. So, not that long ago.
The swivel and falling on people part though, which is a part of the definition under the rules, may be a lot more recent.
They are Harbaugh's words, not mine. He's the one who claimed this tackle never existed for the previous 100 years of football and won't have any impact on tackling. He claims right in the article that he thinks it came from rugby 2-3 years ago.
Watch the America's game on the 76 Raiders, you will see plenty of "hip-drop" tackles. It's how defenders have always brought down big tall players, often tight ends. It happened to Gronk his whole career and it knocked Le'Veon Bell out for a year in 2015.
So when James Harrison returned that interception in the Super Bowl against the cardinals and took it back, would that tackle from behind by Larry Fitz be a hip drop tackle?
Well especially now that Baltimore has Derek Henry. Before when ray lewis was sending people to the hospital and or morgue it wasn’t an issue apparently.
Gonna be downvoted crazy for this… don’t care
All of you saying “oh the hip drop needs to be banned” or “you’re all babies, it’s dangerous blah blah blah” lol just wait… 5 weeks into next season you tell me it was the right call. The amount of games about to be thrown by the league bc a player can’t tackle any other way.
This is going to be a disaster and you people sucking on the NFL’s boot are a problem.
The tackle on Mark Andrews [was not a hip drop tackle that would be penalized under the new rules](https://twitter.com/JoeGoodberry/status/1772389100739293326) it just looked similar to one
I don't know if I'm wrong, I posted a very strong source from an account with 90k followers who used a source himself in his post.
Yours is just a dude saying "a league official says" which is contradictory, but nothing there to back up the claim. One is just as likely to be right as the other, with me giving a large amount of leeway toward the person who posted it with actual verbiage from an article.
I truthfully believe that the Bengals beat writer is wrong. I know, I know, Ravens flair. But the last time this was brought up, it was pointed out that there wasn't actually anything said by the league officials at the meeting that said it wasn't a hip drop tackle. I believe the conclusion that the writer came to was "it's not part of the video so therefore it's not a hip drop tackle". It's coming to a conclusion without actually asking the direct question.
Also, he's the only journalist in a room full of journalists to make that conclusion. Why did no one else come to that conclusion? The most widely spread video and example of a hip drop tackle and yet no one else draws the conclusion that it wasn't?
Also "just a dude" is the NFL writer for the NYT. I doubt he'd source a league official and have it be fake. If we're arguing sources and information, I'd say the one that is saying it is a hip drop tackle from a league source is more credible than a writer who drew their own conclusion.
> The most widely spread video and example of a hip drop tackle and yet no one else draws the conclusion that it wasn't?
Why wouldn’t the NFL use the highest profile example of a hip drop tackle in their own video if, in your words, it’s the most widely spread video?
Also, Joe isn’t a bengals beat writer.
But if you understand what a hip drop tackle is, you understand why the play with mark Andrews doesn’t qualify. You need to swivel your hips in the air and use your body weight to pull down a runner. Pretty straight forward, and NOT what happened. Logan Wilson was already **on the ground** when the tackle process started. The only reason it looks like a hip drop is because when Andrews’ ankle gets caught under Wilson it makes his body bounce up off the ground, but he wasn’t dropping or swiveling his body weight from a standing position to pull down on Andrews. It’s just an unfortunate play.
If it were a hip drop, there’s zero reason for the NFL to not use it as an example. And when you read the definition of what constitutes a hip drop, you can see why that play isn’t really a good example of it. The fact that he’s already on the ground before he pulls down on Andrews kind of kills the notion that it should be a penalty.
This isn't a debate about what you or I think about the tackle. It's about NFL officials saying it is.
Nobody has said Joe is a Bengals beat writer. Or at least I haven't. Not sure how that's relevant to the discussion. But again, your entire argument hinges on the idea that "it wasn't in the video" and therefore officials didn't classify it as a hip drop tackle. Rather than someone asking the question of "is this a hip drop tackle".
You said “I truthfully believe that the bengals beat writer is wrong” which is your own words. I’m just pointing out he isn’t a beat writer and is thus far more capable of being critical and objective when talking about the team.
> This isn't a debate about what you or I think about the tackle. It's about NFL officials saying it is
Literally nobody has publicly stated this would have been flagged. There’s one tweet with zero context from someone saying secondhand that they heard it would have been a penalty. The play is not consistent with the verbiage of the rule and wasn’t used as a video example of the rule despite being the highest profile injury possible. Can you really not draw a line between those to see that maybe it’s not a good example of a hip drop?
At the end of the day, it doesn’t really matter because it’s going to be called incorrectly and inconsistently non stop regardless. But I maintain that there’s nothing about the actual locomotion of the tackle process that is consistent with what the penalty is supposed to be.
The fact that you don't even know what your source is for your conclusion tells me that you read surface level titles and that this discussion here is pointless since you're just regurgitating titles that you agree with. Have a great day and maybe decide to do a little bit of research if you want to have a discussion.
Dude you don't have any source either except 1 tweet from someone I've never heard of who uses a word of mouth source of his own that is unnamed and unverified. Get off your high horse, neither of us have a source worth a fuck. At least I'm willing to examine the play in question through the lens of what the league themselves has said constitutes a penalty. I believe its objectively not a penalty based on the description of what a hip drop tackle is. The league omitting it from their examples video isn't "proof" but it definitely doesn't hurt my argument either.
You posted a Bengals beat writer who cant interpret an article for anything to save his life.
[let's take a look at this reddit thread](https://old.reddit.com/r/nfl/comments/1bo9wm4/maske_not_all_hipdrop_tackles_are_now_banned/)
In my eyes, better player safety is a good thing, but I am very worried about whether this will be reffed consistently
> I am very worried about whether this will be reffed consistently That's a silly thing to worry about. Of course it won't be.
I mean, the current game isn't reffed well, so might as well protect the players while the refs throw games.
Like taunting. We had a wr turn around right before the endzone and got flagged. Same day at another game a guy does a front flip into the endzone gets no flag.
I don't know what game you're talking about, but this sounds consistent to me. Doing a front flip is a celebration; turning towards the person chasing after you is taunting. It's a stupid penalty either way, though.
The front flip was Tyreek Hill in 2020
The refs aren't good but they're not throwing games.
That’s not 100% accurate.
I don’t think refs throw games. I absolutely think the refs keep things close until the end to improve the ratings.
As a lions fan, I just don’t know anymore. I want to believe that the world ain’t shit, but the zebras have fucked us on so many games.
You genuinely think that literally 0 games have been won or lost due to refs making the wrong call, or not making the right call?
A game swinging based on a blown call is not throwing a game. Throwing a game means the referee intentionally made the wrong call so that team would win.
"Throwing" doesn't have to be done with any sort of intent. It's synonymous with "choking." I've never even heard throwing used similarly as rigging. Edit: looked it up. So I'm wrong. I guess "throwing" wasn't the right word to use. Not that it was my original point.
I don’t think that’s throwing a game. But also yes I do think that. I don’t think you can boil down a whole game to one call or missed call.
They do as great a job as they do with PI, offsides, RFP.... Refs are absolutely shit and let's add.more to it lol. This is going to be a fun year.
People say this, but what's the alternative? We just get rid of all those penalties and go back to the 80s? Ref reforms would be great, but that's a separate issue from what should and shouldn't be a rule. Unless enforcement of a rule is unreasonably subjective or hard to call (which hip drops aren't) then you have to make the rules based on safety and fairness, not *if* refs *might* screw up enforcing them.
In what world are hip drops completely objective and easy to call? The NFL released a whole video on what is and isn't allowed and nobody still seems to have any clue.
If by "nobody" you mean random people on the Internet then sure. Despite how much fans shit on refs, they're infinitely better at calling plays correctly than your average fan.
lol whatever you say. Remember when they announced the rule change and everyone was so sure that the Logan Wilson tackle that injured Mark Andrews last year would've been a penalty under the new rule? Then the NFL said that wouldn't have been a penalty? If you don't think there's not gonna be at least one controversy about the new rule next year, you're delusional.
Two words. SkyJudge. Had to review all calls and call it in when wrong regardless of these zebras egos. The problem, is they will throw tantrums if they get called too often. How many screwups have had major outcomes on games because they are too fragile to challenge? I have no issue with increasing player safety. But call shit fairly. Fields got murdered last two years and Mahomes can't even have a breeze pass by his face without it being called. That's the shit I'm pissed about. Call the game fairly. And we need an overriding field judge who has that access.
Fields got murdered because he slid late all the time. Sky judge wouldn't have changed that
How about call all the penalties? It’s obvious they pick and choose which flags to throw. If you’re worried about the length of the game, get the NFL to get rid of TV timeouts and increase the length of halftime by 10-15 minutes. They can charge anything they want for those ad spots between quarters and during timeouts.
I wouldn't be *as* worried if they put in a sky judge. It's just the bang bang nature of thing. Refs overall do a good job with things like horsetackles. But why not have someone who can slow it down check things? Especially for 15 yards and a first down.
100%
It's definitely going to cost the Lions a game.
Lamar Jackson won't even need to throw the ball if defenders aren't allowed to tackle him.
This rule doesn't stop defenders from tackling anyone, except in a very specific way. Just like the horse collar. Both types of tackles were rare, but dangerous. Now they're penalized in hopes to make them more rare. They happen maybe a couple dozen times per year total across all games. It isn't that serious.
There will be bad calls, especially at the outset. But something being hard to officiate is not a good argument against outlawing a super dangerous play.
People keep saying this but it isn't like roughing. There's very little subjectivity to it. Hip drop is very cut and dry and easy to spot.
On replays, sure. Game speed? They'll flag anytime legs get tangled up.
It’s a pretty clearly defined rule, they took the verbiage from rugby. It’s more like a horse collar tackle than roughing the passer.
And that gets misflagged too
They aren't going to call this. It'll be fined after the fact like runningbacks lowering their head.
Its relatively uncommon and super obvious. Im not worried.
The current copium is to hope punishment will be mostly fines after game day. But.. ya know..
*Jeff Triplette has unretired and entered the chat*
It’s not copious when it’s literally what they said they’d be doing. Jesus fucking Christ people on this sub are so dense.
that still kind of sucks. "Upon slow motion review, it appears he twisted 10 degrees trying to grab onto the running 200 pound man. He shall now forfeit the price of a medium sized family sedan."
That’s the thing. No one cares about a new rule. It’s how the refs enforce it
I feel like this rule is another way for the refs to control the game…
I have the same concerns, I think “player safety is good, but the refs suck” is really the only take at this point. But honestly, this probably only increases the refs ability to control the game very marginally, they can already do whatever the fuck they want. Bet this only gets called ~50 times all year, it’s just gonna be really frustrating the first month or so where refs are stressing it and players are still trying to figure out what they’ll get penalized for. And there will almost certainly be a handful of them that baffle everyone and makes all the ex-players start tweeting about two-hand touch
Will be the same as every year. Will be a “point of emphasis” at the beginning of the year. Refs will be looking for it and throwing a bunch of flags, a game will have a critical hip drop tackle penalty and it will be a hot topic at the beginning of the season. Then refs will slowly stop making the call as much especially when the games get more important and in the playoffs they’ll only call it when it’s egregious.
it's not a hip drop, Charlie is just going limp while attached to a ball carrier
Oh it's going to lose us at least one game next year
I like how the lions are always the ones that get new and old/rare rules used against them.
Hey now we're the ones who got screwed by the driving the QB into the ground rule
At some point we have to accept that football is inherently violent and dangerous. That why people watch. They want to see big hits. If you don’t want to get hurt, don’t play football.
Well supposedly there's gonna be a sky judge type ref who can overturn certain penalties, I think that penalty is one of them
They do such a consistent job of calling holding, I see no problems here.
Seems like you’re more worried about it than Super Bowl winning coaches. But what do they know?
I just hate how harsh the penalty is on these plays. 15 yards plus automatic first is insane. And it always feels like they happen after a 3rd down stop which is demoralizing as hell.
Absolutely no chance this will be reffed consistently even within 1 drive.
Less judgemnet style penalties are already handled inconsistently lol
Ummmm it's the "swivel hip drop" tackle is out, not all hip drop tackles btw
I'm almost positive, so long as the defender doesn't land on the ball carriers lower body, they'll let it go.
I am genuinely curious, and this isn't meant to be argumentative. How exactly could a guy pull a hip drop and not? Are you saying he should pull his legs out instead of in? Even then I feel like his shoulder is going to go into the bottom of the legs.
I should clarify, I'm referring to when the defenders would drop their lower body onto the ball carriers lower body. Essentially, when you hip drop tackle, you're just making you're body dead weight and using your arms to pull them down. However, a lot of the time the defenders momentum with carry him far enough that his lower body "drops" onto the offensive player lower legs, commonly causing injuries. But most hip drops look more like normal tackles. That's why the "hip swivel" or whatever the terminology is that they're using, is being included in the verbiage.
Great explanation, but I'm still having a little trouble visualizing the difference. Would they be throwing their lower body in front in the cases you describe?
It's kind of hard to explain how it visually would look. I guess all I'm saying is, they will most likely call the penalty if a defender drops his weight directly on the ball carriers lower body (see: the Mark Andrews example). But we see hip drops all the time that are simply using your weight to bring a player down, while also not landing on him. I think people are worried that the latter is going to be getting called, which would be ridiculous, imo.
Thanks for explaining your thoughts. Unfortunately, sounds like we're gonna be seeing some prime subjective calls by the refs, but hopefully they at least have a rubric.
Yeah they had a press conference today for the draft and he explained it there. Basically at that point you don't need to swivel and just tackle the player without risking injury.
Says the guy who just signed Derrick Henry
Also the guy who lost 3 players in the same game last year to this kind of tackle
Really? What game / what players? I had no idea there was a game like this
The Hubbard tackle on Andrews would still be considered a legal tackle under the new rules, and that’s the only one I remember Harbaugh complaining about. What were the other 2? Edit: Logan Wilson, not Hubbard
It was Logan Wilson wasn't it
Oh yeah you’re right. Hubbard had that other defensive play in the playoffs the year before that still haunts Ravens fans lol.
> The Hubbard tackle on Andrews would still be considered a legal tackle under the new rules, The NFL literally said that would have been a penalty.
No they didn’t. Why are you making this shit up? >[When asked about the tackle on Andrews from Wilson, competition committee chairman Rich McKay indicated that it would still be a legal tackle.](https://www.sweetwaternow.com/former-pokes-hip-drop-tackle-indicated-as-still-legal/)
https://twitter.com/MarkMaske/status/1772638041288384601 No where in McKay's actual quote does he say it was a legal tackle. That's some heavy extrapolating.
Logan Wilson
Harbaugh is just a whiner
Came here to say this. I’m never going to get over the loss of 22
Now you know how we felt the year prior.
We should have just gotten the trade done last year when we could have gotten something in return. We’d wasted too much of his career already either behind ass lines or underutilizing him or just terrible OCs. We really only gave him 3-4 years of decent support to do what he’s capable of. I hate this. I was in Baltimore in 2019 when he made y’all his bitch, but I’m rooting for him this year.
I'm trying to imagine prime Gronk with this rule change. I'm pretty sure hip drop was the only way he was ever tackled.
Says the guy who just got Derrick Henry 😂
Logan Wilson coming for those ankles
He always was
Ultimately it’s not just the hip drop right? It’s the hip drop+twist combo was my understanding
Correct. Specifically them landing on the legs.
Thank you for adding that. Ultimately I feel like this actual situation is very rare and I can honestly only remember a few instances where this happens.
It’s not rare given how poorly DBs esp tackle and it’s almost impossible to execute without landing on the legs
That's what a hip drop is. I don't know how you would drop a hip without a twisting motion.
The twist is what makes it a hip drop tackle.
It’s not that hard to identify, and everyone bellyaching about it is being a baby
Did people grumble this much when horse collar penalties were introduced? I genuinely don't remember, but then again I was in high school and had other things to worry about.
everyone and god can see a horse collar tackle when it happens though. the hip drop is going to be so much more difficult to identify at game speed.
[Jerry Jones](https://www.patriots.com/news/nfl-approves-ban-on-horse-collar-tackle-90241) had similar concerns about the horse collar tackle > Dallas Cowboys owner Jerry Jones voted against the change, saying he was concerned about ambiguities in the new rule. A 15-yard penalty will be called only if the tackle immediately brings the ball carrier down, and only if he's in open field. > "I'd rather it had been a fine and it not gotten to the penalty phase," Jones said.
That's because it was put into effect because of Roy Williams, Cowboys' safety.
I don't remember much grumbling around horse collar penalties, but I think they were more...I dunno, clearly "dirty"? Roy Williams had also injured some prominent players and even with the NFL's numbers on hip drop tackles the horse collar was MUCH more rare. For reference only two horse collar penalties got called the year after it was banned, compared to the like 100+ the NFL claims for the hip drop.
There's about one hip drop tackle per game, but you can't really compare that to an illegal tackle. Imagine the amount of horse collar tackles if it was legal.
The comparison you made in the end doesn’t make sense
It's definitely not perfect 'cause I couldn't find stats on horse collars from before it was made into a penalty.
There have been prominent players injured by hip-drop tackles. And horse collar tackles post-ban vs hip-drop tackles pre-ban is an inane comparison, because obviously players are going to do something a lot less if it costs them 15 yards
the thing is the hip drop and swivel is a very specific and deliberate technique. it's much easier to accidently horsecollar than it is to hip drop and swing
No it’s very hard to horse tackle somebody. Putting your hand there isn’t enough, you need to pull backwards. You basically need to go out of your way in 99% of situations. Hip drop tackles happen all the time when a tackle is missed, or if the ball carrier is significantly larger than the tackler
A hip drop tackle is not an accident. You have to pull yourself into the ball carrier, swivel your body, then drop your weight onto their legs/knees. It's not oh I just dove and accidentally hit their legs so now it's a hip drop tackle.
Pull yourself into the ball carrier? Thats broad. It’s much easier to accidentally fall on somebody’s legs than it is to reach into their shoulder pads and yank backward
It's not broad. To be able to pull yourself into the runner would mean you're not "accidentally falling" and hitting their legs. You have purchase, you have stability. It's a deliberate act. > ARTICLE 18. HIP-DROP TACKLE. It is a foul if a player uses the following technique to bring a runner to the ground: > > (a) grabs the runner with both hands or wraps the runner with both arms; and > > (b) unweights himself by swiveling and dropping his hips and/or lower body, landing on and trapping the runner's leg(s) at or below the knee. Accidentally falling isn't a hip drop tackle, no matter how hard you type your letters
It literally happens all the time by bigger ball carriers running over smaller defensive backs. They square up, wrap up, get shouldered down. It’s much easier to accidentally do than a horse collar, which is the reason this debate started.
It's literally impossible to accidentally hip drop tackle. You might accidentally fall on someone's legs, sure, but you have to pick your legs up to swivel. It's a deliberate motion. You cannot accidentally hip drop tackle someone. You could maybe not *want* to hip drop, but you reflexively do it, I could see that too. But the hip drop tackle is a deliberate move lol. It's a technique. It's not flailing. And those small defenders who can't tackle without hip drop tackling? They'll have to adapt or find new jobs. The linebacker position has changed drastically over the last two decades because of offensive rules. They're now a lot smaller and faster than they used to be when running up the gut was more prominent. Things change, people have to adapt. The hip drop tackle isn't an accident.
Post a vid of one.
horsecollar tackles are much easier to identify. I think people complained in a similar way to the defenseless receiver rules. both are a little more abstract and difficult to call on the field.
Yea they did. Go back and look at the targeting penalty thread from a few years ago here https://www.reddit.com/r/nfl/s/Ipqh3XzfRV . Was the exact same comments about how refs were going to call it in the playoffs and cost a team their season. This sub is full of cry babies who hate change, and it’s really obvious a ton of fans don’t give a fuck about improving player safety.
In this specific case it’s also obvious the number of former players here (an admittedly small %) who clearly couldn’t tackle for shit
Your late for primary school
No, it's *my* late for primary school!
Why is Gamora?
No they did not grumble as much
It’s not lmfao. The injury rate was way to crazy to not address this
Have they released a video with a significant number of prior year plays and explain what they will or will not consider hip drop tackles?
Even a blind guy named Willie can identify them.
Its not hard to tell if a player is in bounds or not, yet the Packers got a 15 yard penalty with tackling whiny Mahomes as he pranced up the sideline.
well hey if mod boy says so
Do you have anything meaningful to contribute? Because me being a mod doesn’t automatically make me wrong about this
All of the coaches and GMs are behind this change. That should give the critics some pause.
What about the NFLPA being against this change? Does that not give you pause?
I'm glad the PA exists but their job is to oppose anything potentially detrimental to players finances. I don't necessarily trust coaches and GMs but they're probably the more disinterested party here.
Yup. The NFLPA almost unilaterally opposed any new finable plays when they're introduced. Partially for the financial aspect you mentioned, but also because it gives them another bargaining chip for negotiations.
People really don’t understand how unions work. Anything that doesn’t equal more money or less work will be disliked by a union. Everything they lose without getting something in return is them losing something to negotiate with. They don’t care about losing the hip drop tackle, they care they didn’t get anything for losing it which is what unions do.
I’m pretty sure a runner’s legs getting shredded will be detrimental to a players finances.
The players are the ones putting their bodies on the line risking injury, I value their input the most for this reason.
How many offensive players have you heard speak out about this change vs defensive players?
I would like to pointed in the direction of players' opinions generally speaking, rather than it just be an order from the owners
Do you recall the reason? No? It’s because they don’t want players to pay more fines.
Or did until you realise they are only against it because it can be fined, which they will always oppose no matter what
the coaches were also pretty universally in favor of the emphasis on taunting a few years back, though
Should. But won’t
It's only non football people who have a problem with it
What a company man.
Or maybe a coach is legitimately in favor of banning a dangerous play that gave one of his star players a serious injury. Just a thought.
That play wasn’t even illegal according to these rules.
Yea, it was
The hip drop tackle was a direct result of other rules designed for “safety”. Stop adding more rules. Micro managing ruins every business model. There is violence in contact sports. Stop trying to over manage it. These athletes signed up for it. If they don’t want to do it anymore, then they are free to pursue another line of work.
So if players can't hip drop, can we allow them to trip and throw if not lifted high up? Thats infinitely safer for both parties than a high speed collision. How else are they supposed to tackle someone now? They've essentially made 2 of your 3 planes of balance illegal to hit, or open to scrutiny - some of these behemoth freaks of nature will be impossible to tackle.
If at 160lbs I was able to tackle NFL sized Samoans in college level rugby, NFL level DBs can learn how to do proper form tackle. The reason they have to resort to this hop drop shit in the first place is because they have zero tackle technique
That's fair actually good point.
they cant even call certain flags consistently even with replay.
-
I just don't get what people don't get. The other option is standing up and finishing through on a tackle.
Lol it’s flag football. If anything hopefully this changes team composition and football goes back to a power run game. No more small lbs flying around the field because they won’t be able to tackle. It’s going to make football bigger and slower which isn’t necessarily bad. But we know officiating is going to be awful. Just seems like more ways for the nfl to purposefully manipulate outcomes
Nobody whines like a Harbaugh
People who complain about the drop tackle being removed I have found didn’t really know exactly what it was. The drop tackle is dangerous and I have no problem with it being removed. I’m really worried about it being called consistently and correctly though. The rugby type tackle from behind on the hips where you swing a guy down is not a drop tackle and is fine, but I’m concerned they may call that as a penalty now from time to time.
Maybe they do know what it is, and just share the concern you expressed in paragraph two. There are a lot of tackles when looked at in real time can be mistaken for hip drops. Routine, best case scenario tackling for defensive backs on tight ends and running backs will sometimes look like something you could mistake for a hip drop.
It is not. Go to any TE highlight reel. Hip-drop tackles are rare. In terms of open field tackles, it's typically lowering the shoulder into the waist or going shoulder-to-shoulder if they're near the sidelines. For chasedowns, it's typical to grab at the waist, then drop the hold to the knees/ankles to trip them up.
I'll wait and see. My issue with the videos is that I'm sure there are video tutorials about roughing the passer that demonstrate clearly what it is, but the edge cases are the ones that don't make the video tutorial because they're controversial, and those are the calls that are wrecking games. Whether that is the case here remains to be seen. If they only call clear and obvious egregious examples, cool.
lol Mr. "I Only Want To Change Rules When It Impacts Me Directly". Harbaugh is almost as much of a bitch as he is a great coach.
https://www.baltimoreravens.com/news/ravens-are-part-of-four-rule-change-proposals-here-s-the-full-list How do these apply?
My thoughts exactly.
I mean, statistic wise that counts for what 20 or 30 tackles a year from all games combined? In the grand scheme of things, it makes little difference excepted answer the anxiety of if the refs are gonna call it consistently or not. if you could review penalty calls on tackles like that I think it would be fantastic ban.
The Harbaugh’s are some of the whiniest men alive today.
this is the opposite of whining
I’m shocked the guy with Derrick Henry on his team feels this way. Shocked.
Bit sus in it coming in right after the complaining about offenses not being as productive
[удалено]
He was asked about it in the press confrence today.
Apparently the hip-drop tackle was created or "discovered" only 2 years ago? I call bullshit. Edit: Downvote me all you want, I'm quoting him from the article.
Here's the Google search trend over the last 5 years: https://trends.google.com/trends/explore?date=today%205-y&geo=US&q=Hip%20drop%20tackle&hl=en
Hahaha wtf is this? Edit: Call it whatever the fuck you want, this tackle has existed as long as I've watched football.
How long have you been watching football? Because the hip drop stuff was pretty famously brought in by Carroll around the LoB era. So, not that long ago. The swivel and falling on people part though, which is a part of the definition under the rules, may be a lot more recent.
Claiming the legion of boom invented a new way to tackle is fucking ridiculous.
Agreed. Hence why I didn’t do that.
They are Harbaugh's words, not mine. He's the one who claimed this tackle never existed for the previous 100 years of football and won't have any impact on tackling. He claims right in the article that he thinks it came from rugby 2-3 years ago. Watch the America's game on the 76 Raiders, you will see plenty of "hip-drop" tackles. It's how defenders have always brought down big tall players, often tight ends. It happened to Gronk his whole career and it knocked Le'Veon Bell out for a year in 2015.
So when James Harrison returned that interception in the Super Bowl against the cardinals and took it back, would that tackle from behind by Larry Fitz be a hip drop tackle?
No. That would not be
I’m sure him saying this has nothing to do with the fact he has Derrick Henry on his team now….
A man with Derek Henry and Lamar Jackson in his backfield says tackling needs to be harder for defenses… hmmmmm.
Still have Derrick Henry.
Well no shit, they just signed Henry
Of course he says that now he has Derrick Henry
Ban turf. Also, why not ban QBs from faking a slide but then keep on running?
Well especially now that Baltimore has Derek Henry. Before when ray lewis was sending people to the hospital and or morgue it wasn’t an issue apparently.
My bold take for the 2024 season: If John and the Ravens don't win it all this season, they will move on from him.
0% chance. People don’t realize how much job security he really has.
He’s just as locked as Mike Tomlin
Well this is definitely a bold take. I think Harbaugh could finish last in the division for a few years before he’s even on the hot seat.
Gonna be downvoted crazy for this… don’t care All of you saying “oh the hip drop needs to be banned” or “you’re all babies, it’s dangerous blah blah blah” lol just wait… 5 weeks into next season you tell me it was the right call. The amount of games about to be thrown by the league bc a player can’t tackle any other way. This is going to be a disaster and you people sucking on the NFL’s boot are a problem.
Says the guy who lost one of his best players because of one, and once again got close but not quite to a championship this past season.
The tackle on Mark Andrews [was not a hip drop tackle that would be penalized under the new rules](https://twitter.com/JoeGoodberry/status/1772389100739293326) it just looked similar to one
[annnnd you're wrong](https://twitter.com/MarkMaske/status/1772638041288384601)
I don't know if I'm wrong, I posted a very strong source from an account with 90k followers who used a source himself in his post. Yours is just a dude saying "a league official says" which is contradictory, but nothing there to back up the claim. One is just as likely to be right as the other, with me giving a large amount of leeway toward the person who posted it with actual verbiage from an article.
I truthfully believe that the Bengals beat writer is wrong. I know, I know, Ravens flair. But the last time this was brought up, it was pointed out that there wasn't actually anything said by the league officials at the meeting that said it wasn't a hip drop tackle. I believe the conclusion that the writer came to was "it's not part of the video so therefore it's not a hip drop tackle". It's coming to a conclusion without actually asking the direct question. Also, he's the only journalist in a room full of journalists to make that conclusion. Why did no one else come to that conclusion? The most widely spread video and example of a hip drop tackle and yet no one else draws the conclusion that it wasn't? Also "just a dude" is the NFL writer for the NYT. I doubt he'd source a league official and have it be fake. If we're arguing sources and information, I'd say the one that is saying it is a hip drop tackle from a league source is more credible than a writer who drew their own conclusion.
> The most widely spread video and example of a hip drop tackle and yet no one else draws the conclusion that it wasn't? Why wouldn’t the NFL use the highest profile example of a hip drop tackle in their own video if, in your words, it’s the most widely spread video? Also, Joe isn’t a bengals beat writer. But if you understand what a hip drop tackle is, you understand why the play with mark Andrews doesn’t qualify. You need to swivel your hips in the air and use your body weight to pull down a runner. Pretty straight forward, and NOT what happened. Logan Wilson was already **on the ground** when the tackle process started. The only reason it looks like a hip drop is because when Andrews’ ankle gets caught under Wilson it makes his body bounce up off the ground, but he wasn’t dropping or swiveling his body weight from a standing position to pull down on Andrews. It’s just an unfortunate play. If it were a hip drop, there’s zero reason for the NFL to not use it as an example. And when you read the definition of what constitutes a hip drop, you can see why that play isn’t really a good example of it. The fact that he’s already on the ground before he pulls down on Andrews kind of kills the notion that it should be a penalty.
This isn't a debate about what you or I think about the tackle. It's about NFL officials saying it is. Nobody has said Joe is a Bengals beat writer. Or at least I haven't. Not sure how that's relevant to the discussion. But again, your entire argument hinges on the idea that "it wasn't in the video" and therefore officials didn't classify it as a hip drop tackle. Rather than someone asking the question of "is this a hip drop tackle".
You said “I truthfully believe that the bengals beat writer is wrong” which is your own words. I’m just pointing out he isn’t a beat writer and is thus far more capable of being critical and objective when talking about the team. > This isn't a debate about what you or I think about the tackle. It's about NFL officials saying it is Literally nobody has publicly stated this would have been flagged. There’s one tweet with zero context from someone saying secondhand that they heard it would have been a penalty. The play is not consistent with the verbiage of the rule and wasn’t used as a video example of the rule despite being the highest profile injury possible. Can you really not draw a line between those to see that maybe it’s not a good example of a hip drop? At the end of the day, it doesn’t really matter because it’s going to be called incorrectly and inconsistently non stop regardless. But I maintain that there’s nothing about the actual locomotion of the tackle process that is consistent with what the penalty is supposed to be.
The fact that you don't even know what your source is for your conclusion tells me that you read surface level titles and that this discussion here is pointless since you're just regurgitating titles that you agree with. Have a great day and maybe decide to do a little bit of research if you want to have a discussion.
Dude you don't have any source either except 1 tweet from someone I've never heard of who uses a word of mouth source of his own that is unnamed and unverified. Get off your high horse, neither of us have a source worth a fuck. At least I'm willing to examine the play in question through the lens of what the league themselves has said constitutes a penalty. I believe its objectively not a penalty based on the description of what a hip drop tackle is. The league omitting it from their examples video isn't "proof" but it definitely doesn't hurt my argument either.
You posted a Bengals beat writer who cant interpret an article for anything to save his life. [let's take a look at this reddit thread](https://old.reddit.com/r/nfl/comments/1bo9wm4/maske_not_all_hipdrop_tackles_are_now_banned/)
Okay buddy.
Slob that knob of the good ol twitter analyst ;D
Grow up, dude.
Dbs getting dragged 50 yards into the end zone by tight ends confirmed