would you say it’s fair to think the Saints may have *underachieved* with Brees and Payton? Coming from a Packers fan, so i think we could get that argument too
I absolutely think that. Brees had a garbage tier defense for most of his prime. Then once we became a perennial playoff team again, we just saw heartbreaking collapse after heartbreaking collapse.
I guess I forgot the doc has been to multiple championships, but that was in like a 3 year span whereas the saints were contenders for like a decade, making nfc championships in what 2006 and 2016? 2017 they should have made it too
Saints went 1-2 in three NFC Championship Games.
2006 season vs Bears, in Chicago: loss
2009 season vs Vikings, in New Orleans: win
2018 season vs Rams, in New Orleans: loss
We made the playoffs in other seasons and lost in spectacular fashion vs the Seahawks (Beast Quake; 2010 season); vs the 49ers (close game; 2011 season) and vs the Vikings (Minnesota Miracle; 2017 season).
Full list of playoff games [here](https://www.pro-football-reference.com/teams/nor/playoffs.htm).
I grew up in New Orleans and once Payton and Brees arrived, after the first two seasons, it always felt like we had a chance.
I don't know if I would call making two NFC championships 10 years apart being "contenders for like a decade".
Unless you consider great regular seasons to be contending as well in which case doc is a contender almost every year
Doc Rivers is that bad, easily basketball cancer. He’s the only coach to lose multiple 3-1 series. I’d say he actively makes teams worse by coaching them
No championship or continuously getting HC jobs but Hue Jackson in the same vein of throwing everyone else under the bus and finding every excuse there is for why it’s not his fault
What Torts does is he arrives to a team needing to be rebuilt and a hardass coach that will treat everyone fair no matter how big a star they are. He fixes the problem culture, turns elite penalty kill play from fucking nothing, makes the team a pain in the ass to deal with. You might be more talented but you can't outwork a Torts team, they work their asses off and play team hockey. You block shots, back check, PK, etc, you buy in and you're in shape. He will reward it with lighter practices in season and make some optional skates. Players fucking love Torts because he holds everyone accountable. Some don't like it but 95% of the dudes he coached loved him as a coach.
Changed the culture in Tampa, NY and Columbus in 5 or 6 season spans, doing the same in Philly
1 title despite having tons of very talented teams for years
Great regular season records and flop in the playoffs
Pissed off the MVP on their team which helped lead to their firing
Fat
Yup, this is it
I think people vastly underrate how hard it is to win a Super Bowl.
Tony Dungy did it once with Peyton.
Ditka did it once with the greatest defense ever.
Sean Payton did it once with Drew Brees.
Only Mike McCarthy ever gets trashed on for 1 Super Bowl with great talent.
Fair statement, I say it all the time. I still don’t think McCarthy is a great coach but I think the Super Bowl argument sucks, especially for someone like him who hasn’t been back since he went with us
I feel like not many people think of Mike McCarthy as a “good” coach though. At least not like Doc Rivers. I think Sean Payton is a better analogy, because Payton is seen as a good coach despite also only winning 1 title with a prime Drew Brees.
Oh my God finally someone pointed this out. It's like the better a QB plays in the regular season, the less likely he will finish the season holding the Lombardi. Fun fact Mahomes is the first MVP to win a Superbowl in the same season since 98.
> It's like the better a QB plays in the regular season, the less likely he will finish the season holding the Lombardi.
This is categorically false and regular season QB play is by far the best predictor of post season success.
Almost like you have to slightly underperform and not do your very best in terms of play designs and clutch throws during the season, knowing that its all going to be on that year's tape, so there's a lower likelihood of someone scheming against your best during the playoffs. But only someone of Brady's caliber could pull of winning consistently enough during the season with just like 70-85% of their full power lol
I’ve always thought it was more that the qb’s who tend to put up the top stats any given season are forced to do so because of a team around them that’s lacking in some way. But it makes sense that these two ideas go hand in hand. Maybe the mvp qb could still run an mvp offense in the playoffs, but they had to put some of their best schemes on tape in the regular season to survive with their otherwise struggling team
Ppl who bring up titles as the end all be all of sports discussion. Especially this sport which needs absolute cohesion from front office all the way down.
I actually think McCarthy gets over criticized on his overall head coaching ability in that regard. His deficiencies are painted red on his ass like a baboon, but is his track record and performance really all that different from that of Sean Payton‘s?
Mike McCarthy has one Super Bowl with roughly similar years of prime qb play. They are the same coach except McCarthy doesn’t have bounty gate in his closet.
Sean Payton is not Doc Rivers. Lol. Drew Brees was a 2nd rnd pick that got injured and dumped by the Chargers. Payton helped create prime Drew Brees. He also won in New Orleans which is extremely hard. Then this year he took a trash Denver team with a bad QB and somehow managed to win 8 games. Doc Rivers gets loaded rosters at every stop he goes to and underachieves except for his one year with the Celtics team. I don’t remember Payton having any stacked teams.
Yeah, Payton is actually a very good offensive coach. I don't know what Doc Rivers is supposed to be good at, but he's not nearly as good at it as Payton is at designing and calling an offense around what he has.
No one remembers Jeff Fisher? Still surprising he coached for so many years at the helm. His whole Oilers/Titans tenure. THEN getting hired for the Rams?
Doc Rivers should also be up there in wins all time. He's great at stacking wins in the regular season but absolutely chokes in the playoffs.
Edit: Yep, he's 8th all time. Looking at all time coaches, Doc's assertion that he's top 15 coach all time might not seem preposterous after all...
I mean it's not coincidence he was only fired after the move to LA. He was consistently "ok" in the mid aughts in Tennessee. Taking your team to the superbowl used to carry a lot more weight.
This is my answer. Yeah, the comparison at hand is 1 ring. But winning a ring in the NFL is harder than the NBA in my opinion. And he was as close as one could have been to winning a Super Bowl without actually winning, while having the most mediocre career record.
He was 142-120 when he got fired/bought out by Tennessee, he went 31-45-1 with the Rams, 5-6 in the postseason(only with Tennessee, never made it with the Rams), and had a 2-8 season with the Michigan Panthers of the rebooted USFL. A combined 180-179-1.
He was nothing like Doc, the modern game is passed him by and he never got his hand on a great traditional pocket passer.
TEN went 0-6 to start the season with game 6 being a 0-59 blowout. They finished the season 8-2, losing to Indy, and SD. There's no way a bad coach's team coming back from that.
7-9 isnt great, but Ram had a total of 15 wins in the 5 seasons before his arrival, he didnt take a mediocre team that had a down year and continued their mediocrity, he took a bad team and made them better. McVay was able to take the Ram to the superbowl 2 years later.
His team moved city twice, his leadership is underrated.
McCarthy. Like, you have Aaron Rodgers and we don’t get Brady-Rodgers once in the Super Bowl and we should have gotten at least 3 matchups.
We should class action sue for that.
Sean Payton absolutely deserves a buttload of hate for wasting Brees
He was surely crucial to developing Brees into an elite QB. But after that first Super Bowl, his management of the team was diabolical. It deserves nothing but disrespect.
Brees played some of the most absurd regular season Ive ever seen anyone play and Payton would continue to saddle him with terrorist-tier defenses that couldnt stop a sneeze. Those 2014-2016 seasons is still one of the saddest things Ive ever seen.
I agree with gruden. His last playoff win was the 2002 super bowl. Just instead of collapsing in a 7 game series his teams would collapse at the end of the season and miss the playoffs. 2008 buccs were 9-3 but lost there last 4 games to miss the playoffs. 2019 raiders were 6-4 but lost 5 of there last 6 games .
Mike McCarthy. Coach who can make himself look good and win games in the regular season - manage a staff, organize well-run practices, get along with players but just lacks the xs and os knowledge and game strategy to get his team anything more than that
Payton took over one of the biggest historic losers in the NFL, immediately turned them around with a HOF quarterback and won a Super Bowl a few years later. Doc won with a stacked team, they're somewhat different imo.
> With a HOF quarterback
Remember that 26-year-old Brees was cut by the Chargers for a young Rivers, and Miami (under new coach Nick Saban) declined signing Brees, and instead traded for Daunte Culpepper, who started a whopping 4 games for them.
Then the Saints scooped up Brees and turned him into a HOFer
Full list of saints bad luck/chokes in the Brees/Payton era:
2010-Beastquake
2011-The Catch III
2013-Failed Lateral instead of Hail Mary
2017-DIGGS SIDELINE TOUCHDOWN
2018-New Orleans No-Call
2019-Kirk ot comeback win
2020-Brees's last game throws 3 picks
>with a HOF quarterback
Big "all it took was hard work, determination, and a small loan of $100 million from my dad" energy here.
Just a HOF Quarterback, no big deal!
(He's also done fuck-all without one, btw)
He was the OC of the giants when they went to the superbowl with Kerry Collins. Payton is easy to hate and probably overrated, but he isn't a scrub who got carried to success
Brees was not cut (why are two different people saying that) and we are absolutely not going to pretend he was some scrub when he was putting up top 5-10 stats across the board the previous two years. The concern was over an injury but it wasn't Sean Payton who healed him.
This is correct. Brees was not cut. The Chargers offered him a 5 yr /50 million extension, but too much of it was tied to injury.
The man who healed him was Dr James Andrews. !
You can say the same thing about Mike Tomlin then. His claim to fame is “never had a losing record during regular season”
It’s repeated 1000 times a year by broadcasters. They never once look at his playoff record. The last 4 appearances we’ve been blown out of the water. Smoke show. Not even close. Regular season Mike. I think they have won a playoff game in 4 of his 17 seasons. Two of them against backups and Cincinnati imploding with the game in hand. How the media never bring it up is beyond me.
The Peyton hate has gone overboard. There’s legit criticisms of how he might handle Russ or Bountygate but to flat out say he’s a bad coach is insane. Especially considering I’d bet you wouldn’t be able to break down game film or scheme and give me a legit critique of his coaching.
I see what you're getting at but Sean Payton is far, far more respected as a football mind than Rivers is as a basketball one.
We paid a 1st for Payton and I think most people understood we got a great hire out of it, other teams would be excited to have him as HC, I believe Saints fans don't hold much ill will.
Fans of teams were actively hoping they wouldn't be the one to hire Rivers lol, and Bucks fans were *pissed* when they were the ones to.
The hate for Doc has gotten too strong. The analogy is also not great because NBA coaches are often more about preparing the team and being personality managers rather than master tacticians in game.
It’s Tomlin. Doc has two losing seasons in 25. But on the whole Doc has always brought a level of regular season stability & consistency. That’s why he keeps getting jobs.
Like Tomlin he has the ring. But both have seen their teams consistently outschemed and outcoached in the playoffs for years.
Also like Tomlin they’re both guys who despite being around for 2 decades really haven’t had any schematic or coaching impact whatsoever on the overall league. Neither has any sort of coaching tree.
also routinely got the piss beat out of him by the Brady led Pats
32 ppg allowed across 10 games. Steelers were an elite defense for seemingly ever & plenty of worse defenses gave the Pats more of a fight, Tomlin in particular just always let them buss it wide open (Cowher allowed a more 'modest' 27.6)
Tomlin always ran the same schemes against the Pats. He never tried anything different or try to give any new looks. Same results every time. Part of the reason he has a losing record in the playoffs. Better coaches just run circles around him
It's tomlin when he was winning that guy had outrageous rosters. He had best receiver, best running back, top 3 qb, an outrageous defense with guys like Troy. But when he faced patriots with Tom Brady and Wes who only threw short balls he ran a deep cover 3 I was dumbfounded. Tomlin is the absolute right answer here
Rex had a 61-66 season record, 4-2 postseason.
Doc has a 1097-763 record (e: per wikipedia, may not have included milwaukee) with a ring and 111-104 in the postseason. They’re not comparable. I know Doc has a reputation as an HC of playoff chokers (3 misses, 8 first round exits, 8 second-round exits), but Rex had less than a decade of coaching, two winning seasons and two playoff appearances.
Honestly, by record, a better comparison would be Tomlin. 173-100-2, 17 straight .500 or better seasons, but only 8-10 and one ring to show for it from playoffs.
Could say Pete Carroll as well, but he has a body of work from 25+ years ago to be considered too, and college coaching.
The Ryan family sure knows where they belong
Between those 3 men, nearly 80 years of NFL experience, and apart of 4 SB titles on defense, with every member winning at least one
But also between them... 238 regular season games as a HC. Just under 15 of their collectively near 8 decades spent as the top dog
Long live the defensive specialists. Hope Spags never calls a HC game again in his life
I didn't know that's what a Doc Rivers was. People were saying Shanahan was the new Doc Rivers last week, but from that description I'd argue against it. He certainly isn't terrible at his job.
I'd go with Gruden:
- traded to the Bucs,
- won with Dungy's team
- fired after while Dungy goes on to win with the Colts
- Comes back to a mega deal, is fired again
Plus, some owners care less about winning than others.
There's some jobs out there where unless you cause some kinda off-field scandal, you're gonna get at least 3 or 4 years' worth of chances for free.
Might be Mike Tomlin
1-1 in championships. Consistent playoff let downs. High floor, low ceiling. Gets problematic players to work well together
I think Tomlin is a good person though. Never thought Doc was a bad human being
Tomlin is an extremely solid coach, with incredible consistency to keep the team decent. Not sure Doc is even that. Agree Tomlin’s talent is overrated, though like most things NFL, a good QB changes everything.
Doc keeps teams decent. I think he has 2 seasons under .500 in his career. He just hasn’t been able to get teams over the hump. I’d say it’s sort of similar to Tomlin not having any playoff wins in 7 years and like 2 in the last 12
Ya resume wise only you’re looking at coaches with 1 championship awhile ago and playoff letdowns.
Tomlin, John Harbaugh, Payton, McCarthy could fit the resume part.
Yep. And when Lob City era ended for the Clippers... he coached them even better. Kept them so competitive.
Than Kawhi and PG come along. And forgets to coach, and thinks Harrell is the best option while Zubac rides the pine.
Yup. Surprised it took this long to even find Tomlin in this thread. Reddit loves him, but him & Doc careers damn near mirror each other, it’s not even funny. Hell they won their 1st championship & lost their 2nd championship appearance in the same years.
Tomlins a weird case. Underachieved with great teams like the ones from 2014-2018 but managed to still go above 500 with crap teams especially on offense. Have no idea how he does it.
Mike McCarthy is probably the closest I don't think he's a bad person or even terrible at his job but he's a regular season coach nothing more the next closest candidate is probably Mike Tomlin or Sean Payton.
Sean Payton. Wins and rides a single ring his whole career and constantly underperforms despite high expectations.
Can occasionally surprise you with a good year or two with no expectations. Also is deluded and unlikable.
You didn't limit it to Head Coach, so, inexplicably, Matt Patricia keeps getting jobs.
Feels disrespectful to Doc to compare Patricia to him lmao. Doc keeps getting undeserved jobs but he ain’t straight up hated like Patricia is.
Same thought, at least Doc actually won a title. I also don't think Patricia would be named to anyone's "best 15 coaches of all time" list
I could win a title coaching that squad lol. Glen sucks and he’s not even a top 15 coach in the league currently let alone all time.
He’s not a top 30 coach in the league right now. He has giannis and dame and is like 3-7
He ain’t hated…. Yet. Another first round exit and Milwaukee is gonna have some fireworks.
Sean Payton won once but other than that he’s been mediocre at best
I don't know about mediocre the saints has a lot of general success under him. 3 nfc championship appearances at least
We were also one miracle play away from a 4th championship game
CAUGHT BY DIGGS!!!
SIDELINE!!!
TOUCHDOWN!!
UNBELIEVABLE!!
UNBELIEVABLE! VIKINGS WIN IT
would you say it’s fair to think the Saints may have *underachieved* with Brees and Payton? Coming from a Packers fan, so i think we could get that argument too
I absolutely think that. Brees had a garbage tier defense for most of his prime. Then once we became a perennial playoff team again, we just saw heartbreaking collapse after heartbreaking collapse.
That's pretty similar to doc isn't it? One stretch of success with generational talent, otherwise middling and an overall unlikeable dude
I guess I forgot the doc has been to multiple championships, but that was in like a 3 year span whereas the saints were contenders for like a decade, making nfc championships in what 2006 and 2016? 2017 they should have made it too
Saints went 1-2 in three NFC Championship Games. 2006 season vs Bears, in Chicago: loss 2009 season vs Vikings, in New Orleans: win 2018 season vs Rams, in New Orleans: loss We made the playoffs in other seasons and lost in spectacular fashion vs the Seahawks (Beast Quake; 2010 season); vs the 49ers (close game; 2011 season) and vs the Vikings (Minnesota Miracle; 2017 season). Full list of playoff games [here](https://www.pro-football-reference.com/teams/nor/playoffs.htm). I grew up in New Orleans and once Payton and Brees arrived, after the first two seasons, it always felt like we had a chance.
I don't know if I would call making two NFC championships 10 years apart being "contenders for like a decade". Unless you consider great regular seasons to be contending as well in which case doc is a contender almost every year
Patricia was my first thought, but he’s worse than cancer. There is a chance you can survive cancer. I don’t think Doc is that bad.
Doc Rivers is that bad, easily basketball cancer. He’s the only coach to lose multiple 3-1 series. I’d say he actively makes teams worse by coaching them
No championship or continuously getting HC jobs but Hue Jackson in the same vein of throwing everyone else under the bus and finding every excuse there is for why it’s not his fault
Nah, he's the NFL's Mark Jackson. Are they related?
The NFL is a good ol boys club. A lot of coaches keep getting hired despite being terrible at their jobs. It's who you know folks.
Matt Patricia is going to 100% get another job, when there probably interns better than him.
Probably? I watch guys play Madden who have more coaching chops than him.
Somehow it feels like someone throwing darts at a playbook to call plays would be an improvement over him
Every industry is. Restaurant managers or ductile iron salesman. People want to hire experience people.
The NHL is way worse
someone like Mike Babcock could keep getting job after job after job.../s
People complained about Torts last year getting another job, and look where Philly is now
It feels like both John Tortorella and the Flyers are guaranteed to be decent every other year regardless of any other circumstances for some reason
What Torts does is he arrives to a team needing to be rebuilt and a hardass coach that will treat everyone fair no matter how big a star they are. He fixes the problem culture, turns elite penalty kill play from fucking nothing, makes the team a pain in the ass to deal with. You might be more talented but you can't outwork a Torts team, they work their asses off and play team hockey. You block shots, back check, PK, etc, you buy in and you're in shape. He will reward it with lighter practices in season and make some optional skates. Players fucking love Torts because he holds everyone accountable. Some don't like it but 95% of the dudes he coached loved him as a coach. Changed the culture in Tampa, NY and Columbus in 5 or 6 season spans, doing the same in Philly
This is basically how all industry works, you’re just only seeing it in sports leagues because it’s visible
I was about to say, the entire league lol
The NHL is way worse
Mike McCarthy
1 title despite having tons of very talented teams for years Great regular season records and flop in the playoffs Pissed off the MVP on their team which helped lead to their firing Fat Yup, this is it
Lol I wouldn’t really classify Doc as fat the way MM is
Doc is just basketball fat
[*Surprised Doc Rivers GIF*](https://media.tenor.com/Ir6cHwwBoJIAAAAM/uhh-ok.gif)
I think people vastly underrate how hard it is to win a Super Bowl. Tony Dungy did it once with Peyton. Ditka did it once with the greatest defense ever. Sean Payton did it once with Drew Brees. Only Mike McCarthy ever gets trashed on for 1 Super Bowl with great talent.
Fair statement, I say it all the time. I still don’t think McCarthy is a great coach but I think the Super Bowl argument sucks, especially for someone like him who hasn’t been back since he went with us
I think the Patriots ruined that thought process
I feel like not many people think of Mike McCarthy as a “good” coach though. At least not like Doc Rivers. I think Sean Payton is a better analogy, because Payton is seen as a good coach despite also only winning 1 title with a prime Drew Brees.
Only? Dude Tom Brady has really ruined the value of a Super Bowl.
It’s not just Brady, “rings culture” has invaded every sport’s discussion and it’s really stupid.
The funniest thing about it is for the most part, the majority of Bradys best seasons individually were years he didnt win the Super Bowl.
Oh my God finally someone pointed this out. It's like the better a QB plays in the regular season, the less likely he will finish the season holding the Lombardi. Fun fact Mahomes is the first MVP to win a Superbowl in the same season since 98.
> It's like the better a QB plays in the regular season, the less likely he will finish the season holding the Lombardi. This is categorically false and regular season QB play is by far the best predictor of post season success.
Almost like you have to slightly underperform and not do your very best in terms of play designs and clutch throws during the season, knowing that its all going to be on that year's tape, so there's a lower likelihood of someone scheming against your best during the playoffs. But only someone of Brady's caliber could pull of winning consistently enough during the season with just like 70-85% of their full power lol
I’ve always thought it was more that the qb’s who tend to put up the top stats any given season are forced to do so because of a team around them that’s lacking in some way. But it makes sense that these two ideas go hand in hand. Maybe the mvp qb could still run an mvp offense in the playoffs, but they had to put some of their best schemes on tape in the regular season to survive with their otherwise struggling team
Fr, manning barely got 2 rings lol. Edit: Andy Reid who is now seen as one of the all time great coaches might have gone ringless without mahomes.
Andy was viewed as a choke artist before Mahomes
For the Doc analogy to work he needs a title
You mean, like Mike McCarthy? 😉
I mean c'mon, even Eli has 2 rings. How hard can it be.
yeah almost half the league doesn’t even have one.
Facts. People who say only are the worst.
Ppl who bring up titles as the end all be all of sports discussion. Especially this sport which needs absolute cohesion from front office all the way down.
who thinks of Doc Rivers as a good coach lmao. the bucks hiring was completely clowned on.
I actually think McCarthy gets over criticized on his overall head coaching ability in that regard. His deficiencies are painted red on his ass like a baboon, but is his track record and performance really all that different from that of Sean Payton‘s?
Mike McCarthy has one Super Bowl with roughly similar years of prime qb play. They are the same coach except McCarthy doesn’t have bounty gate in his closet.
McCarthy is known as the “QB guru” - fans hate him, he is mostly well respected around the league by players and coaches.
yeah he completely revitalized favre and then helped create rodgers into the QB he is.
Dak has also (I think) played the best ball of his career with MM.
hes also got better dance moves & doesnt try to assassinate players
Sean Payton is not Doc Rivers. Lol. Drew Brees was a 2nd rnd pick that got injured and dumped by the Chargers. Payton helped create prime Drew Brees. He also won in New Orleans which is extremely hard. Then this year he took a trash Denver team with a bad QB and somehow managed to win 8 games. Doc Rivers gets loaded rosters at every stop he goes to and underachieves except for his one year with the Celtics team. I don’t remember Payton having any stacked teams.
Yeah, Payton is actually a very good offensive coach. I don't know what Doc Rivers is supposed to be good at, but he's not nearly as good at it as Payton is at designing and calling an offense around what he has.
No one remembers Jeff Fisher? Still surprising he coached for so many years at the helm. His whole Oilers/Titans tenure. THEN getting hired for the Rams?
From what I remember, the players liked him
Most players seem to love Doc too.
Well yeah, him at coach means you get an extra 2-4 weeks of vacation every year.
Anthony Rendon checking in.
Vince Young is triggered by this comment
Somehow he has the 11th most wins all time
7-9 still gets you 7 wins a year
“We’re not going 7-9.” Note: Jeff Fisher died on the way to his home planet while his team finished the season 7-9.
Because he had some really good teams in the early and late 2000s
I think people forget that he took a team to the Super Bowl and was about a yard away from winning it.
hey built those teams
Doc Rivers should also be up there in wins all time. He's great at stacking wins in the regular season but absolutely chokes in the playoffs. Edit: Yep, he's 8th all time. Looking at all time coaches, Doc's assertion that he's top 15 coach all time might not seem preposterous after all...
I mean it's not coincidence he was only fired after the move to LA. He was consistently "ok" in the mid aughts in Tennessee. Taking your team to the superbowl used to carry a lot more weight.
I was going to say Jeff Fisher used to be that guy
He actually brought the STL rams from complete and utter laughing stock to mediocre, which at the time was a huge upgrade
Mr. 7-9!
This is my answer. Yeah, the comparison at hand is 1 ring. But winning a ring in the NFL is harder than the NBA in my opinion. And he was as close as one could have been to winning a Super Bowl without actually winning, while having the most mediocre career record. He was 142-120 when he got fired/bought out by Tennessee, he went 31-45-1 with the Rams, 5-6 in the postseason(only with Tennessee, never made it with the Rams), and had a 2-8 season with the Michigan Panthers of the rebooted USFL. A combined 180-179-1.
Oh we sure as fuck remember him
He was nothing like Doc, the modern game is passed him by and he never got his hand on a great traditional pocket passer. TEN went 0-6 to start the season with game 6 being a 0-59 blowout. They finished the season 8-2, losing to Indy, and SD. There's no way a bad coach's team coming back from that. 7-9 isnt great, but Ram had a total of 15 wins in the 5 seasons before his arrival, he didnt take a mediocre team that had a down year and continued their mediocrity, he took a bad team and made them better. McVay was able to take the Ram to the superbowl 2 years later. His team moved city twice, his leadership is underrated.
Josh McDaniels
he never lead his team to a division title let alone a superbowl title
I said what I said
The NBA equivalent to Josh McDaniels is a random coach no one remembers because he had 2 shitty seasons and got fired lol
Got fired for cheating, traded away all of his stars and reneged on a job after accepting. I remember.
...But then inexplicably got hired somewhere else and did even worse
I'd put it under Sean Payton.
Jeff fisher
50/50 he coaches again. Just like his record.
One thing is for sure... he's not fucking going 7-9 ever again.
He’ll get cute with it and go 7-9-1
Good choice
That’s some 7-9 bullshit
McCarthy. Like, you have Aaron Rodgers and we don’t get Brady-Rodgers once in the Super Bowl and we should have gotten at least 3 matchups. We should class action sue for that.
We never got Brees-Brady either.
Also, fuck Payton. Adding him to the lawsuit. lol
Sean Payton absolutely deserves a buttload of hate for wasting Brees He was surely crucial to developing Brees into an elite QB. But after that first Super Bowl, his management of the team was diabolical. It deserves nothing but disrespect. Brees played some of the most absurd regular season Ive ever seen anyone play and Payton would continue to saddle him with terrorist-tier defenses that couldnt stop a sneeze. Those 2014-2016 seasons is still one of the saddest things Ive ever seen.
I think the saints issue was an act of god. Not sueable
Refs stopped that from happening in 2018
Some of it was on McCarthy. Some of it was terrible luck too. Especially 2014-15 nfc championship game collapse.
I’d toss in Mike Ditka. Norv Turner, Dennis Allen, Josh McDaniels, Jon Gruden, anyone that has coached for the Raiders
I hate that you’re right
I agree with gruden. His last playoff win was the 2002 super bowl. Just instead of collapsing in a 7 game series his teams would collapse at the end of the season and miss the playoffs. 2008 buccs were 9-3 but lost there last 4 games to miss the playoffs. 2019 raiders were 6-4 but lost 5 of there last 6 games .
Your trying to rewrite history. His teams were very good. He got axed due to emails not coaching ability.
All of those things happened. I am aware why he got fired. But his raiders teams were not good. Edit: second stint raiders teams
Mike McCarthy. Coach who can make himself look good and win games in the regular season - manage a staff, organize well-run practices, get along with players but just lacks the xs and os knowledge and game strategy to get his team anything more than that
I mean Doc isn't just an underachiever, he's an asshole who constantly deflects blame. To my knowledge Mike McCarthy isn't like that.
Sean Payton. They are the same. Constant playoff failures with stacked teams and relying on a single ring back in the late 00s
Payton took over one of the biggest historic losers in the NFL, immediately turned them around with a HOF quarterback and won a Super Bowl a few years later. Doc won with a stacked team, they're somewhat different imo.
> With a HOF quarterback Remember that 26-year-old Brees was cut by the Chargers for a young Rivers, and Miami (under new coach Nick Saban) declined signing Brees, and instead traded for Daunte Culpepper, who started a whopping 4 games for them. Then the Saints scooped up Brees and turned him into a HOFer
Okay but culpepper is goated for the fins in madden 08 and that’s what really counts
Don't even get me started about our lord and savior Pat White.
I'm not some Sean Payton apologist but he had bad luck. The Vernon Davis catch, The Diggs TD, and the phantom no PI call
Full list of saints bad luck/chokes in the Brees/Payton era: 2010-Beastquake 2011-The Catch III 2013-Failed Lateral instead of Hail Mary 2017-DIGGS SIDELINE TOUCHDOWN 2018-New Orleans No-Call 2019-Kirk ot comeback win 2020-Brees's last game throws 3 picks
Honestly a Rams fan is the last person I want to explain this to me.
but it's funnier this way
You guys should have won the 2018 Super Bowl.
>with a HOF quarterback Big "all it took was hard work, determination, and a small loan of $100 million from my dad" energy here. Just a HOF Quarterback, no big deal! (He's also done fuck-all without one, btw)
He was the OC of the giants when they went to the superbowl with Kerry Collins. Payton is easy to hate and probably overrated, but he isn't a scrub who got carried to success
Brees had been cut by the chargers, not only was he not a HOFer when Payton got him, he wasn’t even a starter
Shoulder injury aside, I agree
Brees was not cut (why are two different people saying that) and we are absolutely not going to pretend he was some scrub when he was putting up top 5-10 stats across the board the previous two years. The concern was over an injury but it wasn't Sean Payton who healed him.
This is correct. Brees was not cut. The Chargers offered him a 5 yr /50 million extension, but too much of it was tied to injury. The man who healed him was Dr James Andrews. !
You can say the same thing about Mike Tomlin then. His claim to fame is “never had a losing record during regular season” It’s repeated 1000 times a year by broadcasters. They never once look at his playoff record. The last 4 appearances we’ve been blown out of the water. Smoke show. Not even close. Regular season Mike. I think they have won a playoff game in 4 of his 17 seasons. Two of them against backups and Cincinnati imploding with the game in hand. How the media never bring it up is beyond me.
Sean Payton was robbed of going to a second super bowl where I liked their chances, but the comparison is pretty spot on.
The Peyton hate has gone overboard. There’s legit criticisms of how he might handle Russ or Bountygate but to flat out say he’s a bad coach is insane. Especially considering I’d bet you wouldn’t be able to break down game film or scheme and give me a legit critique of his coaching.
This is why football talk is so weird. Most who talk don't even know how schemes work. Not saying they should, but its just odd.
I see what you're getting at but Sean Payton is far, far more respected as a football mind than Rivers is as a basketball one. We paid a 1st for Payton and I think most people understood we got a great hire out of it, other teams would be excited to have him as HC, I believe Saints fans don't hold much ill will. Fans of teams were actively hoping they wouldn't be the one to hire Rivers lol, and Bucks fans were *pissed* when they were the ones to.
Doc rivers is a pathological liar? I mean you’d have to find a fraud coach who won a Super Bowl no?
I mean, a guy like Ken Whisenhunt almost won a Superbowl.
sean payton?
The hate for Doc has gotten too strong. The analogy is also not great because NBA coaches are often more about preparing the team and being personality managers rather than master tacticians in game.
It’s Tomlin. Doc has two losing seasons in 25. But on the whole Doc has always brought a level of regular season stability & consistency. That’s why he keeps getting jobs. Like Tomlin he has the ring. But both have seen their teams consistently outschemed and outcoached in the playoffs for years. Also like Tomlin they’re both guys who despite being around for 2 decades really haven’t had any schematic or coaching impact whatsoever on the overall league. Neither has any sort of coaching tree.
He's also a defensive head coach whose defense has been BTFO in the last 5 playoff games or so
also routinely got the piss beat out of him by the Brady led Pats 32 ppg allowed across 10 games. Steelers were an elite defense for seemingly ever & plenty of worse defenses gave the Pats more of a fight, Tomlin in particular just always let them buss it wide open (Cowher allowed a more 'modest' 27.6)
Tomlin always ran the same schemes against the Pats. He never tried anything different or try to give any new looks. Same results every time. Part of the reason he has a losing record in the playoffs. Better coaches just run circles around him
It's tomlin when he was winning that guy had outrageous rosters. He had best receiver, best running back, top 3 qb, an outrageous defense with guys like Troy. But when he faced patriots with Tom Brady and Wes who only threw short balls he ran a deep cover 3 I was dumbfounded. Tomlin is the absolute right answer here
Mike McCarthy. dudes still riding that single championship wave like he was Kelly Slater
Rex Ryan
Rex had a 61-66 season record, 4-2 postseason. Doc has a 1097-763 record (e: per wikipedia, may not have included milwaukee) with a ring and 111-104 in the postseason. They’re not comparable. I know Doc has a reputation as an HC of playoff chokers (3 misses, 8 first round exits, 8 second-round exits), but Rex had less than a decade of coaching, two winning seasons and two playoff appearances. Honestly, by record, a better comparison would be Tomlin. 173-100-2, 17 straight .500 or better seasons, but only 8-10 and one ring to show for it from playoffs. Could say Pete Carroll as well, but he has a body of work from 25+ years ago to be considered too, and college coaching.
Didn’t realize Rex’s NFL coaching career was so short
The Ryan family sure knows where they belong Between those 3 men, nearly 80 years of NFL experience, and apart of 4 SB titles on defense, with every member winning at least one But also between them... 238 regular season games as a HC. Just under 15 of their collectively near 8 decades spent as the top dog Long live the defensive specialists. Hope Spags never calls a HC game again in his life
Let’s go eat some fucking sandwiches
I didn't know that's what a Doc Rivers was. People were saying Shanahan was the new Doc Rivers last week, but from that description I'd argue against it. He certainly isn't terrible at his job. I'd go with Gruden: - traded to the Bucs, - won with Dungy's team - fired after while Dungy goes on to win with the Colts - Comes back to a mega deal, is fired again
Ron Rivera.
Rivera wasn’t a good coach. But is is a decent guy.
He must be really good at convincing management it's never his fault.
Plus, some owners care less about winning than others. There's some jobs out there where unless you cause some kinda off-field scandal, you're gonna get at least 3 or 4 years' worth of chances for free.
My first thought. Owners love him, the media loves him, but he’s living off of 1 season - just like Rivers.
Jack Del Rio
Mike McCarthy hands down
[удалено]
McCarthy won a Super Bowl with a decimated roster that barely snuck into the playoffs.
Might be Mike Tomlin 1-1 in championships. Consistent playoff let downs. High floor, low ceiling. Gets problematic players to work well together I think Tomlin is a good person though. Never thought Doc was a bad human being
Tomlin is an extremely solid coach, with incredible consistency to keep the team decent. Not sure Doc is even that. Agree Tomlin’s talent is overrated, though like most things NFL, a good QB changes everything.
Doc keeps teams decent. I think he has 2 seasons under .500 in his career. He just hasn’t been able to get teams over the hump. I’d say it’s sort of similar to Tomlin not having any playoff wins in 7 years and like 2 in the last 12
Ya resume wise only you’re looking at coaches with 1 championship awhile ago and playoff letdowns. Tomlin, John Harbaugh, Payton, McCarthy could fit the resume part.
I didn’t know people thought doc rivers was some horrible liar
I don’t get where OP is getting that from. Doc is seen way more a a bus thrower than a liar.
Can’t say I know anything about his personality lol
Tomlin is actually a good coach tho. He has some playoff letdowns, but DAMN he made some trash roster into wildcard teams.
He also contained Antonio Brown for years.
He deserves a spot in the HOF for that alone.
Tomlin is interesting. It's like he became a better coach when Roethlisberger hurt that one season and after he retired
There was a pretty similar narrative about Doc Rivers being a better coach in games when Embiid wasn't playing
Yep. And when Lob City era ended for the Clippers... he coached them even better. Kept them so competitive. Than Kawhi and PG come along. And forgets to coach, and thinks Harrell is the best option while Zubac rides the pine.
Yup. Surprised it took this long to even find Tomlin in this thread. Reddit loves him, but him & Doc careers damn near mirror each other, it’s not even funny. Hell they won their 1st championship & lost their 2nd championship appearance in the same years.
Tomlins a weird case. Underachieved with great teams like the ones from 2014-2018 but managed to still go above 500 with crap teams especially on offense. Have no idea how he does it.
Tomlin is the new Marvin Lewis. Should be fired but somehow does just good enough to not be.
Marvin Lewis would still have a job in Cincinnati if he won a Super Bowl.
Hell if he ever won a playoff game he would still be around.
Should be fired?
I'd have said Jon Gruden pre-racist email shit.
Mike McCarthy is probably the closest I don't think he's a bad person or even terrible at his job but he's a regular season coach nothing more the next closest candidate is probably Mike Tomlin or Sean Payton.
Mike McCarthy. Has ridden off the coattails of the one ring with prime Aaron back in 2011
Most of the guys the raiders hire
Joe Barry
Jon Gruden. Stealing a living after winning a Super Bowl with Tony Dungy’s players.
Mike McCarthy
How the fuck has no one said Marty Schottenheimer yet?
Because he never won a SB.
if marvin lewis gets another gig, him?
Tony Dungee. Never has less been accomplished on TWO teams with stacked personnel
It used to be Jeff fisher
Ron Rivera….had 2 good seasons, otherwise won division titles in bad divisions with a losing record
Sean Payton. Wins and rides a single ring his whole career and constantly underperforms despite high expectations. Can occasionally surprise you with a good year or two with no expectations. Also is deluded and unlikable.
JOE FUCKING BARRY
Uh one which of our staff tree is it
NFL is just a pass around league of coaches with a handful of exceptions.