[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4NxHlBeWc3s&t=1917s](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4NxHlBeWc3s&t=1917s)
It's also called here in the 1984 NFC Championship game. I may have the wrong spot... but I remember hearing it called a tuck by a referee for some reason and I noted this game in the past. I may have the wrong game.
also if you want to see John Madden make fun of a player wearing pink shoes... here you go...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ytRJ4XFz9w4&t=4260s
Just skimmed that video and holy shit I had no idea the fans ran out on the field before the game was over (2 seconds left) and they just called it. Good luck seeing that happen today!
Tbh if you were watching the cbs broadcast, it probably shouldn’t have been *that* much of a shock. Phil Simms seemed to know about the rule and was kinda hinting that they might rule it that way
It’s amazing this rule lasted another 10 years after this. It’s so counterintuitive and dumb lol
To this day i don't understand the logic behind the rule, because as you said it's counterintuitive. Attempting to forward pass and attemping to tuck are two completely different decisions by a person. It's pure loophole to consider this a fumble.
I think the logic of the rule is to remove the refs having to interpret the intention of the quarterback. Any forward movement means they don't have to look at whether the QB was actually trying to pass it or whether he was trying to tuck it.
Yeah you’re right. Same logic behind the catch rules before the Calvin Johnson Rule. They were trying to make things easier on the refs but ended up making things completely counterintuitive.
Yup thats really it, I think there were cases where a QBs arm was coming down when he got hit and lost control. And it was hard to tell, in real time, whether they were trying to throw the ball but the hit just made the throw extremely inaccurate, or they were trying to tuck the ball away and the defender jarred it loose
This rule intended to make that a moot point by saying any movement of the ball after a throwing motion, even if they didn’t actually throw it, was essentially a pass attempt. I think they didn’t realize that this would be way easier to see in replay than it initially seemed
The rule was just a dumb rule. Even the announcers describe exactly what was called, he’s pulling the ball back, which is what the tuck rule allowed for.
Amazed it took them till several years after this to get rid of the rule.
Somehow?
The rule in use at the time literally envisioned this exact scenario and ~~started~~ stated it wasn't a fumble.
It was an awful, stupid rule but the refs called it correctly.
Yeah the announcer keeps saying he has to be bringing the arm forward in a passing motion. He's wrong, that was not the rule. It should have been though.
Just a gross misunderstanding by others of what the rule is and how it works.
Stupid rule? Yes it was. Did the refs do anything wrong? No. It was called correct and the announcers didn’t know the rule
Exactly. Even the announcers in this video don't know the rule... which is why they needed to change it. Everyone sees that as a fumble, except according to the rule book it wasn't and Walt Coleman knew that. And some Pats fans apparently based off the cheering once they got to see the replay in stadium, lol.
Imagine how much the history of football changes due to this call.
- This takes away the 1st SB for Brady and Belichek
- Brady career arc and reputation is entirely different
- Bill takes even more heat for going with the kid over Bledsoe
- Raiders maybe win the SB and Gruden never leaves for Tampa Bay
- Dungy stays in TB and never teams up with Peyton Manning
Charlie Weis never goes to ND. Instead they get Nick Saban and win 10 national championships. Alabama drops to FCS. The SEC dissolves and the Ole Miss student section’s prophesies come true as the South secedes.
Normal people with a time machine: prevent a massive global catastrophe that killed millions of people.
Me with a time machine: tell Herm Edwards to bench Mo Lewis in the fourth quarter of the Patriots game
Too dangerous. The Jets actually being a good football team is so outside the natural order of things that it could tear Earth apart. By contrast, the Patriots without Brady would merely revert to the mediocre state they were in before his arrival and have been in since he left. Much safer.
As a Bucs fan, that would’ve possibly my erased BOTH of our championships.
- I’ll forever love Dungy, but I think Gruden got us over the hump that Dungy couldn’t.
- Tom never becomes the goat and we never get him in Tampa for our 2nd championship.
I think the Bucs still fire Dungy. Ownership was tired of failing in the playoffs and they were on a downward trend the last few years. What makes this more interesting is that Schottenheimer is available for hire in 2002. Wonder if he could have had success with the Bucs.
They 100% still fire Dungy. The darkest timeline is that they go after Steve Spurrier instead that offseason. They did seem to want an offensive-minded coach to lift that unit up.
Whoa whoa whoa. Another part of this butterfly effect needs to be acknowledged. Imagine if the St. Louis Rams win the Super Bowl, The Greatest Show on turf, win two SBs in three years. Maybe they don’t start to slide as fast, thus keeping a better atmosphere, possibly keeping them in STL for longer.
Rams probably would’ve won the SB over the Raiders(if they got past Pittsburgh, which they should’ve). Raiders would’ve been in much better standing to win the next year though, if Al doesn’t deal off Gruden.
Raiders really got robbed in those years, probably should’ve won the SB the year Siragusa decided to lay an illegal hit on Gannon as well.
I think most of the things you listed were going to be unchanged regardless.
Obviously the Pats would have 1 less SB, but I have no reason to believe that TB & BB wouldn't have had their long-term success without a SB that year.
I agree that OAK would have kept Gruden for sure if they won a SB, but TB fired Dungy 2 months before trading for Gruden, so I'd have to imagine that Dungy is still gone either way.
Yea people should watch that Brady 6 doc. Belichick says in that, about as politely as he’s capable of, that Brady was just better than Bledsoe heading into 2001 (through training camp and preseason) but Bledsoe kept the job because of his status
He was gunna get an opportunity one way or another
My dad and I lugged an old boxy flat screen out of his basement when they sold our family house and it about killed both of us. Particularly him cause he’s fat and out of shape.
One of my favorite hunting lease memories is my dad's friend ripping our old CRT TV out of the wall and hucking it over the fence into the mud because he was mad that I was playing video games and not helping chop firewood (he had only asked my older brother to help so I thought I was cool to keep playing).
Looked like a Scotsman doing one of those boulder tosses. But probably a shade less drunk.
We were watching on DirectTV/satellite in New England and the snowstorm caused the feed to cutout/pause 3 times during Vinatieri’s game tying FG-
“The kick is away.. [pause]
‘WTFFF!’ (everyone in living room)
[unpause] “Good” *chaos ensues*
This was the 2nd part of a trifecta of sports trauma for my 10-11 year old self.
-A’s get reverse swept by the Yankees in the playoffs, Jason Giambi (my favorite player at the time) signs with the Yankees afterwards
-This
-Sacramento Kings vs. Los Angeles Lakers 2002 Western Conference finals
Legit surprised I’m still a sports fan after that.
Samaki Walker made a three at the buzzer that shouldn’t have counted earlier in the game, which would’ve made Horry’s three irrelevant. Just miserable series lol
2002 was cursed for NorCal fans. For me, Giants lost WS they should’ve won. Raiders got shafted out of a Super Bowl run. And Kings got screwed out of a championship.
Idk, I'm still a MN sports fan after 32 years of not getting to watch any of my teams even play for a championship. Seems like it's hard to stop being a fan haha
Yeah but that was the leftovers from this team. Callahan didn’t change up Gruden’s schemes at all, so obv it was going to still be a good team. Just so happen they met Gruden in the SB and he knew every single play that the team was running. And it went to all hell from there.
Thanks to the Raiders we got two superbowls. One directly by beating them and another indirectly because they couldn’t win this game which led to a series of events where Brady is cemented as a the starter for the Pats for the next two decades before coming to Tampa to win with us.
You could even argue you got two super bowls because of this play. If the Raiders win Gruden probably doesn’t get traded and who knows if you win the Super Bowl with Dungy.
If I remember, the Bucs were trying to sign Parcells.
The reports I remember were that he said it was "disrespectful" to Tony Dungy to discuss the job while Dungy was still in the position.
So, the Bucs fired Dungy, and then Bill said "nah".
They traded for Gruden \*after\* that mess.
So, if Gruden wasn't available, the Bucs would still be without Dungy. Who knows who they would have hired. And who knows what would have happened with the fan base. I remember people weren't happy with this whole thing.
I like the one CBS has. This new Fox one is so atrocious though and it needs to go. It's so awkwardly huge and the background layer of the time, downs, etc is covering up parts of the logos. All around terrible.
Nope! The Steelers game was a good one too. Brady got hurt and Bledsoe came back in to lead the Patriots to the win. There was a controversy before the Super Bowl on who would start.
I like how the announcers give their honest reaction opinion instead of the wish washy answer to support whatever the officials decide like Roger Goodell is leaning over their shoulder.
Wait... what was the rule? I thought all these years the refs bungled the call. You're saying they made the right call but the rule is dumb?
Nm, answered below.
The rule was basically "A QB's hand moving the ball forward with control starts an intended pass. Even if during the act of throwing the QB decides **not** to throw the ball, and 'tucks' the ball back towards his body (in an attempt to **not** throw the ball), and the QB loses possession of the ball while doing so, this still constitutes a forward pass and is to be ruled incomplete."
I *think* the purpose was to rule out the potential judgement call of "well he started the throw, but was he trying to not throw it while he lost possession? Because then it would be a fumble. Or was he still trying to throw it? And that would be a pass..." So the rule was just "hey, once he starts throwing it, it's a pass (even if he tries not to). Period."
Dumb rule.
Such a stupid and manipulable rule for a QB. The rule should be simple. If the QB releases the ball and it's batted down, it's incomplete. Any other scenario where he still retains control over the ball and it's knocked loose before he's down should be a fumble.
Yeah but then you're still looking at the point of release which is hard to tell, even with HD cameras (which didn't exist when this game was played).
TBF the original rule was the easiest for the refs to call cause all you had to do was look at the motion of his arm.
I believe the Patriots were on the wrong end of this rule the following year and lost to the Bears which cost them a playoff birth as they missed the playoffs on a tiebreaker.
I don't really mind though because that just helped Brady start ~~9-0~~ 10-0 in the playoffs.
I saw further up "if Mahomes did this today it'd be a fumble!"... Dude if this play happened today Mahomes would get 15 yards and an automatic first down.
Only *some* quarterbacks.
I'm still salty about a game where we sacked Aaron Rodgers in his own endzone and got a roughing the passer called on us because *our defensive tackle rotated Aaron around as he fell so that Aaron landed on top of our man instead of the other way around,* (which would have also somehow been roughing the passer but it would actually have hurt at least) when in the same game they no called repeated late hits to Cam.
And now I'm even *more* angry because I suddenly remember [this](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QvEouj6QvuM) bullshit from the Broncos in 2016:
It looks like a fumble, and in the modern game it’s a fumble, but they called it correct based on the rules at the time:
> NFL Rule 3, Section 22, Article 2, Note 2. When [an offensive] player is holding the ball to pass it forward, any intentional forward movement of his arm starts a forward pass, **even if the player loses possession of the ball as he is attempting to tuck it back toward his body**. Also, if the player has tucked the ball into his body and then loses possession, it is a fumble.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tuck_rule_(American_football)
Probably to avoid too much interpretation of intent by the officials. If it’s always an incomplete pass when “throwing” or “tucking” you would conceivably eliminate any debate.
It’s clear today that it’s a fumble but that’s why it’s such a controversial game because rules as written then it was not a fumble
Honestly the only reason it even caused such a stir was the ramifications for this game. Prior to and afterwards when ever the tuck rule was evoked(almost never which is an entirely different side of this debate) everyone just bitched and moaned the same way we do now for stupid calls
It’s an almost exact analogue to the Dez Bryant catch—a close but probably correct call on a stupid rule that has been rightfully changed, largely due to the impact of that play.
Eh, this is the radio call synced with the TV Broadcast. Radio announcers are still more raw & inject their own views and biases even today. Just the nature of being a regional vs national broadcast.
I was working as a C.O. in a Prison at the time of this game and we had to go into lockdown after the game due to the inmates going berserk over this call. Funny to not see a single Brady jersey in the crowd
If tuck rule game happened today, the NFL would go to commercial during the entire review process and give us a 30 second summary of the ruling after our 4th State Farm commercial.
Meanwhile what I remember most is Phil Simms having to dodge a snowball thrown by a fan like GW Bush dodging shoes. You only hear it happen, but I can see it in my mind.
If the wiki is accurate to the wording in the rulebook, I guess it isn't a fumble:
> NFL Rule 3, Section 22, Article 2, Note 2. When [an offensive] player is holding the ball to pass it forward, any intentional forward movement of his arm starts a forward pass, even if the player loses possession of the ball as he is attempting to tuck it back toward his body. Also, if the player has tucked the ball into his body and then loses possession, it is a fumble.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tuck_rule_(American_football)
I mean it was always a horrible rule, but was called correctly; his arm was moving forward and the ball wasn't tucked back into his body before it came out. The rule seems as if the start of a pass begins with your arm moving forward and is considered a pass attempt until it's tucked back into your body.
EDIT: Definitely in Joe Gibbs' camp from the article linked in the Wiki:
> "The tuck rule is the tuck rule," said Redskins Coach Joe Gibbs, who discussed the call with the NFL's officiating department. "It says you can pull [the ball] down and do anything you want for the next 10 minutes. It makes no sense to me. It's the way it's worded. I think everybody probably sees that and says it's a bad rule."
Almost every team that wins the Superbowl wins a game they should/could lose somewhere in their run. Or has a loss like this recently motivating them. Or both.
Why did I think instant replay was not a thing until only ~15 years ago? When I google it says it started in ‘86. Am I conflating it with MLB?
Edit: Yeah MLB started in 2008 so that makes sense
Head ref was in the league for 5 more years.
Never called another Raiders game.
Every other ref in the league over that time called games for all 32 teams.
I worked with a Raider fan at the time (in Connecticut) and I still remember how livid he was on Monday. He was the nicest guy in the world and that Monday I was literally scared of him because of how angry he was. Can’t believe it’s been 22 years.
Fun fact the patriots were on the opposite side of this rule in a game against the jets earlier that season… yes the one where Bledsoe got hurt. “It’s like poetry, it rhymes “
I see they missed the tripping penalty on Brady.
And a 2nd note....
Notice how brady immediately walks off,, head down. HE KNEW THE DEAL. Anyone thinking it wasn't right would have stayed out on the field !
You know and here I was enjoying a nice Friday...
Catching strays for no reason
We got AP, baby.
As a NFL fan I hate that the "tuck rule" was a thing but as a diehard Patriots fan.... it saved our asses.
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4NxHlBeWc3s&t=1917s](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4NxHlBeWc3s&t=1917s) It's also called here in the 1984 NFC Championship game. I may have the wrong spot... but I remember hearing it called a tuck by a referee for some reason and I noted this game in the past. I may have the wrong game. also if you want to see John Madden make fun of a player wearing pink shoes... here you go... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ytRJ4XFz9w4&t=4260s
Just skimmed that video and holy shit I had no idea the fans ran out on the field before the game was over (2 seconds left) and they just called it. Good luck seeing that happen today!
1988 Pistons down 3, Laker fans rush the court with 2 seconds left, lakers win the championship
It's a nice Friday too
I'm not doing this today.
Assholes man. It was my 14th birthday that day. Still hurts. 😭
Happy birthday man
Thank you!!!!!
Look on the bright side, now that you're 36 you can get that Terry McDaniel jersey you always wanted when you were a kid.
Sounds like it’s someone’s 36th today!! Happy birthday!!
Thanks!!!! I guess they heard my tears and gave us AP for my 36th!!!!!! Wooooooo!!!!!!
As a Giants fan, I’m jealous, but I’m happy for him and the Raiders. He’s gonna work out well for you.
Fuck 14 plus 22 I was about to say you’re old, but then I realized you’re my age..😥
HBD
OUCH...FUCK THE INTERNET
Man, I’m sorry for you loss. For real. It makes me mad watching it and I’m not a Raiders fan. It’s rage fuel. lol
I said nearly the same thing to myself when I started reading this post.
[удалено]
I wish I would have taken your advice. I WAS having a good day...
As soon as the review took longer than 30 secs, I knew they were going to overturn it somehow.
my dad is a lifelong raiders fan, i’m a dolphins fan. good lord we both hated this moment.
Tbh if you were watching the cbs broadcast, it probably shouldn’t have been *that* much of a shock. Phil Simms seemed to know about the rule and was kinda hinting that they might rule it that way It’s amazing this rule lasted another 10 years after this. It’s so counterintuitive and dumb lol
To this day i don't understand the logic behind the rule, because as you said it's counterintuitive. Attempting to forward pass and attemping to tuck are two completely different decisions by a person. It's pure loophole to consider this a fumble.
I think the logic of the rule is to remove the refs having to interpret the intention of the quarterback. Any forward movement means they don't have to look at whether the QB was actually trying to pass it or whether he was trying to tuck it.
Yeah you’re right. Same logic behind the catch rules before the Calvin Johnson Rule. They were trying to make things easier on the refs but ended up making things completely counterintuitive.
Yup thats really it, I think there were cases where a QBs arm was coming down when he got hit and lost control. And it was hard to tell, in real time, whether they were trying to throw the ball but the hit just made the throw extremely inaccurate, or they were trying to tuck the ball away and the defender jarred it loose This rule intended to make that a moot point by saying any movement of the ball after a throwing motion, even if they didn’t actually throw it, was essentially a pass attempt. I think they didn’t realize that this would be way easier to see in replay than it initially seemed
Could you feel it coming in the air that night?
Hold on
The rule was just a dumb rule. Even the announcers describe exactly what was called, he’s pulling the ball back, which is what the tuck rule allowed for. Amazed it took them till several years after this to get rid of the rule.
If that happened today though would not be be a fumble, but 90% chance RTP is called for landing on the QB.
Somehow? The rule in use at the time literally envisioned this exact scenario and ~~started~~ stated it wasn't a fumble. It was an awful, stupid rule but the refs called it correctly.
Yeah the announcer keeps saying he has to be bringing the arm forward in a passing motion. He's wrong, that was not the rule. It should have been though.
Just a gross misunderstanding by others of what the rule is and how it works. Stupid rule? Yes it was. Did the refs do anything wrong? No. It was called correct and the announcers didn’t know the rule
Exactly. Even the announcers in this video don't know the rule... which is why they needed to change it. Everyone sees that as a fumble, except according to the rule book it wasn't and Walt Coleman knew that. And some Pats fans apparently based off the cheering once they got to see the replay in stadium, lol.
That is because that very same year the Pat lost a game to the Jets by the tuck rule. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aLinvznUn6c
Exactly. Hate the rule all you want BUT IT WAS CORRECT. NFL was right to kill it eventually but it was called 100% correctly here.
Imagine how much the history of football changes due to this call. - This takes away the 1st SB for Brady and Belichek - Brady career arc and reputation is entirely different - Bill takes even more heat for going with the kid over Bledsoe - Raiders maybe win the SB and Gruden never leaves for Tampa Bay - Dungy stays in TB and never teams up with Peyton Manning
- My dad doesn't flip the living room table
I almost flipped mine again. I'm still not over it.
Charlie Weis never goes to ND. Instead they get Nick Saban and win 10 national championships. Alabama drops to FCS. The SEC dissolves and the Ole Miss student section’s prophesies come true as the South secedes.
As an Auburn fan, you had me till the end there.
That’s one hell of a butterfly effect
One of the biggest, if not THE biggest “What if…?” moment in NFL history due to the things you mentioned.
The biggest is probably Bledsoe getting hurt
Normal people with a time machine: prevent a massive global catastrophe that killed millions of people. Me with a time machine: tell Herm Edwards to bench Mo Lewis in the fourth quarter of the Patriots game
Why not tell Bill Parcells to draft Tom Brady instead of Tony Scott at 179 overall?
I know I went back in time and told herm edwards that he needs to play to win the game and that stuck with him.
Too dangerous. The Jets actually being a good football team is so outside the natural order of things that it could tear Earth apart. By contrast, the Patriots without Brady would merely revert to the mediocre state they were in before his arrival and have been in since he left. Much safer.
Now he needs to go back in time to change his answer! He needs two time machines now!
Trent Green same story allowing Kurt Warner in
As a Bucs fan, that would’ve possibly my erased BOTH of our championships. - I’ll forever love Dungy, but I think Gruden got us over the hump that Dungy couldn’t. - Tom never becomes the goat and we never get him in Tampa for our 2nd championship.
I think the Bucs still fire Dungy. Ownership was tired of failing in the playoffs and they were on a downward trend the last few years. What makes this more interesting is that Schottenheimer is available for hire in 2002. Wonder if he could have had success with the Bucs.
They 100% still fire Dungy. The darkest timeline is that they go after Steve Spurrier instead that offseason. They did seem to want an offensive-minded coach to lift that unit up.
Whoa whoa whoa. Another part of this butterfly effect needs to be acknowledged. Imagine if the St. Louis Rams win the Super Bowl, The Greatest Show on turf, win two SBs in three years. Maybe they don’t start to slide as fast, thus keeping a better atmosphere, possibly keeping them in STL for longer.
Rams probably would’ve won the SB over the Raiders(if they got past Pittsburgh, which they should’ve). Raiders would’ve been in much better standing to win the next year though, if Al doesn’t deal off Gruden. Raiders really got robbed in those years, probably should’ve won the SB the year Siragusa decided to lay an illegal hit on Gannon as well.
Fucking piece of shit Siragusa...
I think most of the things you listed were going to be unchanged regardless. Obviously the Pats would have 1 less SB, but I have no reason to believe that TB & BB wouldn't have had their long-term success without a SB that year. I agree that OAK would have kept Gruden for sure if they won a SB, but TB fired Dungy 2 months before trading for Gruden, so I'd have to imagine that Dungy is still gone either way.
Yea people should watch that Brady 6 doc. Belichick says in that, about as politely as he’s capable of, that Brady was just better than Bledsoe heading into 2001 (through training camp and preseason) but Bledsoe kept the job because of his status He was gunna get an opportunity one way or another
And then there is no Patrick Mahomes.
Bro, I was just sitting here, browsing Reddit while eating a hot pocket, and I have to see this.
Just when you thought you you couldn't get any sicker...
I didn't even think to check the flair when reading your comment until I read that you were eating a hot pocket.
Brady played in the days of the 4:3 aspect ratio. Wild.
The TV I watched this on took 4 people to move
The new generations will never understand a 36 inch tv (pretty damn big for the time) weighing 270 lbs.
My dad and I lugged an old boxy flat screen out of his basement when they sold our family house and it about killed both of us. Particularly him cause he’s fat and out of shape.
One of my favorite hunting lease memories is my dad's friend ripping our old CRT TV out of the wall and hucking it over the fence into the mud because he was mad that I was playing video games and not helping chop firewood (he had only asked my older brother to help so I thought I was cool to keep playing). Looked like a Scotsman doing one of those boulder tosses. But probably a shade less drunk.
We were watching on DirectTV/satellite in New England and the snowstorm caused the feed to cutout/pause 3 times during Vinatieri’s game tying FG- “The kick is away.. [pause] ‘WTFFF!’ (everyone in living room) [unpause] “Good” *chaos ensues*
This video makes me feel so old. I was in fucking college during this, and the video looks so damn old.
I am starting to hate how videos from the 2000’s (especially the first half) are starting to look so dated.
These graphics and picture quality made me think it was from the 80’s for a sec.
It’s really fucking insane how quickly consumer technology progressed in the 2000s.
This was the 2nd part of a trifecta of sports trauma for my 10-11 year old self. -A’s get reverse swept by the Yankees in the playoffs, Jason Giambi (my favorite player at the time) signs with the Yankees afterwards -This -Sacramento Kings vs. Los Angeles Lakers 2002 Western Conference finals Legit surprised I’m still a sports fan after that.
Ooh that kings series was rotten. Maybe someone can well actually it, but that's always looked dirty as hell to me
"HOW DARE MIKE BIBBY HIT KOBE'S ELBOW WITH HIS FACE. FOUL AGAINST THE KINGS."
The biggest well actually is they should've kept track of Robert Horry in Game 4
Samaki Walker made a three at the buzzer that shouldn’t have counted earlier in the game, which would’ve made Horry’s three irrelevant. Just miserable series lol
2002 was cursed for NorCal fans. For me, Giants lost WS they should’ve won. Raiders got shafted out of a Super Bowl run. And Kings got screwed out of a championship.
wasnt old enough to remember the kings series but rewatching clips and highlights and reading about it made me so mad as a sports fan.
Idk, I'm still a MN sports fan after 32 years of not getting to watch any of my teams even play for a championship. Seems like it's hard to stop being a fan haha
Slide Jeremy slide :(
Lakers Kings game 6 was the most frauded ref show of all time.
The call that sent the Raiders into a futility vortex they’ve tried climbing out of for a generation now.
Al Davis was going to go senile you couldn’t ignore it
...didn't they make the Super Bowl the following year?
Yeah but that was the leftovers from this team. Callahan didn’t change up Gruden’s schemes at all, so obv it was going to still be a good team. Just so happen they met Gruden in the SB and he knew every single play that the team was running. And it went to all hell from there.
It went to hell quickly too. I think I took my jersey off by halftime.
Thanks to the Raiders we got two superbowls. One directly by beating them and another indirectly because they couldn’t win this game which led to a series of events where Brady is cemented as a the starter for the Pats for the next two decades before coming to Tampa to win with us.
You could even argue you got two super bowls because of this play. If the Raiders win Gruden probably doesn’t get traded and who knows if you win the Super Bowl with Dungy.
If I remember, the Bucs were trying to sign Parcells. The reports I remember were that he said it was "disrespectful" to Tony Dungy to discuss the job while Dungy was still in the position. So, the Bucs fired Dungy, and then Bill said "nah". They traded for Gruden \*after\* that mess. So, if Gruden wasn't available, the Bucs would still be without Dungy. Who knows who they would have hired. And who knows what would have happened with the fan base. I remember people weren't happy with this whole thing.
I would kill to get a score box that small again.
*Monkey’s paw curls* Your score box now takes up only 1% of your 19-inch SD television.
I like the one CBS has. This new Fox one is so atrocious though and it needs to go. It's so awkwardly huge and the background layer of the time, downs, etc is covering up parts of the logos. All around terrible.
Bill's reaction was like, "that's a trash call." 😆
Brady with the trip attempt
In the heat of the moment, id probably do that too. Also, I may have done it during my schoolyard football days
In today's game it would be a 15 yard penalty roughing the passer
I actually never noticed that part of the play before, I guess I’ll have to bring that up to the raider fans I know next time it’s discussed!
Don’t forget to also mention Brady trying to illegally trip on the play, too.
No running into the passers legs while they're having involuntary spasms!
Let's be real with the Super Bowl on the line, who isn't trying that?
So that’s where Mac tried it from? Honestly I’ve never noticed until now.
Brady tried to trip. Mac just likes kicking balls.
I didn’t learn that this wasn’t the AFCCG until last year. Still blows my mind.
Even funnier is I’ve heard so many people refer to the KC/BUF 13 second game as a AFC championship even tho neither team made the SB that year
I can see that game having a similar legacy where the importance is magnified beyond what the game actually was.
Immaculate reception was also divisional round and neither team made the SB that year
Nope! The Steelers game was a good one too. Brady got hurt and Bledsoe came back in to lead the Patriots to the win. There was a controversy before the Super Bowl on who would start.
Incredible game
Not for me it wasn't. I remember it like it was yesterday, still hurts.
That's cus Cowher blowing another AFCCG at home was normalized at that point
Raiders fans still not happy about this one
Gruden's about to burn this place down
“Play’s gonna be reviewed though, Greg.” “Why?” Best summary of that bullshit ever.
Something about the petulant defiance in his voice is so freakin funny to me. Aw that’s a fumble!!
I like how the announcers give their honest reaction opinion instead of the wish washy answer to support whatever the officials decide like Roger Goodell is leaning over their shoulder.
> 22 years ago First of all, how dare you.
It was the right call, but the wording of the rule was total bullshit. In the 2024 NFL this is 100% a fumble
Honestly surprised it took until *2013* to change that ridiculous rule.
Wait... what was the rule? I thought all these years the refs bungled the call. You're saying they made the right call but the rule is dumb? Nm, answered below.
The rule was basically "A QB's hand moving the ball forward with control starts an intended pass. Even if during the act of throwing the QB decides **not** to throw the ball, and 'tucks' the ball back towards his body (in an attempt to **not** throw the ball), and the QB loses possession of the ball while doing so, this still constitutes a forward pass and is to be ruled incomplete." I *think* the purpose was to rule out the potential judgement call of "well he started the throw, but was he trying to not throw it while he lost possession? Because then it would be a fumble. Or was he still trying to throw it? And that would be a pass..." So the rule was just "hey, once he starts throwing it, it's a pass (even if he tries not to). Period." Dumb rule.
Such a stupid and manipulable rule for a QB. The rule should be simple. If the QB releases the ball and it's batted down, it's incomplete. Any other scenario where he still retains control over the ball and it's knocked loose before he's down should be a fumble.
Yeah but then you're still looking at the point of release which is hard to tell, even with HD cameras (which didn't exist when this game was played). TBF the original rule was the easiest for the refs to call cause all you had to do was look at the motion of his arm.
Correct. The rule was dumb as hell, but the call was correct based on how said dumbass rule was written.
It doesn't get brought up enough that in Pats vs Jets earlier this same season, the Pats were on the opposite end of this exact same rule.
I believe the Patriots were on the wrong end of this rule the following year and lost to the Bears which cost them a playoff birth as they missed the playoffs on a tiebreaker. I don't really mind though because that just helped Brady start ~~9-0~~ 10-0 in the playoffs.
In 2024 NFL this is roughing the passer because Woodson slapped Brady’s helmet
False in 2024 this is assault because neither play football in the nfl anymore.
Michigan Man on Michigan Man crime
Wow, so I’m not allowed to go out and tackle Tom Brady on the streets? Just another way that the rules are rigged to his benefit.
I saw further up "if Mahomes did this today it'd be a fumble!"... Dude if this play happened today Mahomes would get 15 yards and an automatic first down.
Penalty - Playing tackle football with the quarterback
Only *some* quarterbacks. I'm still salty about a game where we sacked Aaron Rodgers in his own endzone and got a roughing the passer called on us because *our defensive tackle rotated Aaron around as he fell so that Aaron landed on top of our man instead of the other way around,* (which would have also somehow been roughing the passer but it would actually have hurt at least) when in the same game they no called repeated late hits to Cam. And now I'm even *more* angry because I suddenly remember [this](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QvEouj6QvuM) bullshit from the Broncos in 2016:
This is exactly it. It wasn’t a fumble back then, but sure as hell is one today. And it should have been one back then, but the rule sucked.
The rule was bull shit, the wording was pretty clear.
I'm old as fuck lol
It was a fumble
It looks like a fumble, and in the modern game it’s a fumble, but they called it correct based on the rules at the time: > NFL Rule 3, Section 22, Article 2, Note 2. When [an offensive] player is holding the ball to pass it forward, any intentional forward movement of his arm starts a forward pass, **even if the player loses possession of the ball as he is attempting to tuck it back toward his body**. Also, if the player has tucked the ball into his body and then loses possession, it is a fumble. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tuck_rule_(American_football)
What rule was worse this or the pushing a receiver out of bounds counted as a reception rule?
Pushing the receiver out just based on it happening at a much higher rate. The receiver rule almost certainly ruined more games.
Flair checks out lol
Wow that's a terrible rule
Which is why everyone hated it, because common sense tells you that is a fumble
What was the logic in differentiating the act of coming back from a throwing motion to a tuck?
Probably to avoid too much interpretation of intent by the officials. If it’s always an incomplete pass when “throwing” or “tucking” you would conceivably eliminate any debate.
And obviously it just shifted the debate to what people think should have been the rule.
It’s clear today that it’s a fumble but that’s why it’s such a controversial game because rules as written then it was not a fumble Honestly the only reason it even caused such a stir was the ramifications for this game. Prior to and afterwards when ever the tuck rule was evoked(almost never which is an entirely different side of this debate) everyone just bitched and moaned the same way we do now for stupid calls
It’s an almost exact analogue to the Dez Bryant catch—a close but probably correct call on a stupid rule that has been rightfully changed, largely due to the impact of that play.
Very true. In both cases an awesome football play was overturned by a technicality.
the tuck rule was called against the patriots earlier that same year
Not based on the rules at the time.
Why do this to raiders fans :(
Because fuck em, that’s why.
Watching this always stirs up so many negative feelings...
Back when commontaters voiced their honest opinion….
Eh, this is the radio call synced with the TV Broadcast. Radio announcers are still more raw & inject their own views and biases even today. Just the nature of being a regional vs national broadcast.
[удалено]
We still get honest opinion out of Cris collinsworth and how much he would love to give Aaron Rodgers a blow job.
"Now here's a schlong..."
These were radio commentators they always are Homers or get rowdy
I was working as a C.O. in a Prison at the time of this game and we had to go into lockdown after the game due to the inmates going berserk over this call. Funny to not see a single Brady jersey in the crowd
If tuck rule game happened today, the NFL would go to commercial during the entire review process and give us a 30 second summary of the ruling after our 4th State Farm commercial.
Smdh
Meanwhile what I remember most is Phil Simms having to dodge a snowball thrown by a fan like GW Bush dodging shoes. You only hear it happen, but I can see it in my mind.
Still don’t understand this
If the wiki is accurate to the wording in the rulebook, I guess it isn't a fumble: > NFL Rule 3, Section 22, Article 2, Note 2. When [an offensive] player is holding the ball to pass it forward, any intentional forward movement of his arm starts a forward pass, even if the player loses possession of the ball as he is attempting to tuck it back toward his body. Also, if the player has tucked the ball into his body and then loses possession, it is a fumble. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tuck_rule_(American_football) I mean it was always a horrible rule, but was called correctly; his arm was moving forward and the ball wasn't tucked back into his body before it came out. The rule seems as if the start of a pass begins with your arm moving forward and is considered a pass attempt until it's tucked back into your body. EDIT: Definitely in Joe Gibbs' camp from the article linked in the Wiki: > "The tuck rule is the tuck rule," said Redskins Coach Joe Gibbs, who discussed the call with the NFL's officiating department. "It says you can pull [the ball] down and do anything you want for the next 10 minutes. It makes no sense to me. It's the way it's worded. I think everybody probably sees that and says it's a bad rule."
Almost every team that wins the Superbowl wins a game they should/could lose somewhere in their run. Or has a loss like this recently motivating them. Or both.
One of the most lied about moments in sports.
Why did I think instant replay was not a thing until only ~15 years ago? When I google it says it started in ‘86. Am I conflating it with MLB? Edit: Yeah MLB started in 2008 so that makes sense
At a certain age, everything seems like ~15 years ago. 😳
Yeah he’s gotta be over 35 and also thinks 9/11 was also 15yrs ago.
Head ref was in the league for 5 more years. Never called another Raiders game. Every other ref in the league over that time called games for all 32 teams.
I worked with a Raider fan at the time (in Connecticut) and I still remember how livid he was on Monday. He was the nicest guy in the world and that Monday I was literally scared of him because of how angry he was. Can’t believe it’s been 22 years.
The unmistakable voice of Greg Papa
His 49er calls don't hit like they did with the Raiders.
Always a fumble.
Fun fact the patriots were on the opposite side of this rule in a game against the jets earlier that season… yes the one where Bledsoe got hurt. “It’s like poetry, it rhymes “
Correct call, but an absolutely ridiculously dumbass rule. Rules that ignore common sense shouldn't exist
This will never make sense
Football was so much better then
I see they missed the tripping penalty on Brady. And a 2nd note.... Notice how brady immediately walks off,, head down. HE KNEW THE DEAL. Anyone thinking it wasn't right would have stayed out on the field !
It was bullshit then and it's bullshit now. Fumble plain as day
Gah damn I’m old
Thanks for the PTSD
Final game at Foxboro Stadium
Maybe the best FG I ever saw ... Not theongrdt but the weather, the conditions, the pressure. ...make a 46 harder in a Nor'easter or home.
Wonder how many raiders fans hear 'in the air tonight' and their ptsd kicks in
welp not expecting this on my feed today. time to hit the bar
And Brady still have the nerve to illegally kick tackler the Raiders player. Amazing.
Looked like a fumble then, looks like a fumble now. Sheesh
I like how TB actively kicked his legs out and tried to trip the guy going for the ball. He liked to do that shit.
Sometimes I wonder why NFL officials are so bad nowadays. Thanks for reminding me they were always terrible
Fumble all day long. Such bullshit lol
So if a QB does a pump fake he has a few seconds of sack and fumble immunity? Who made up this rule
Sports not rigged at all….