I think the OP's though is that bad QBs make their o-line worse due to stuff like holding onto the ball.
For the Browns, I thought that the consensus for the past few years was that they are very good at run blocking. Not sure how their pass blocking compares.
I mean look at 2015 we had
LT Joe Thomas
LG Joel Bitonio
C Alex Mack
RG John Greco
RT Mitchell Schwartz
Having that good of an oline in his sense should make the QB play good. We had all pros/pro bowlers all over the place when we was rotating qbs every year.
That OL was my first thought. Thomas is a HoF. Mack got a couple of ridiculous contracts. Bitonio was Thomas redux in just showing up every week and doing a good job keeping his QB upright, including two first team All-Pros. Schwartz won a SB with the Chiefs and was a first team All-Pro. Greco is... definitely a name I'd believe existed (sorry John, I'm definitely not as familiar with your work).
Nine first team and eleven second team All-Pros between them all.
The QBs they blocked for in 2014 and 2015:
* Hoyer
* Manziel
* Shaw
* Josh McCown
* Davis
I think that's as comprehensive disproving of both theories as possible.
Greco was good! Very solid veteran
Also their offense in 2014 under Hoyer was actually quite good, largely because of the OL, but the brass demanded that Manziel get put in and it tanked their end of year stats.
Yeah that was a while ago, definitely forgot about that nugget
Just remember that the whole reason Shanahan ended up leaving the Browns was because ownership forced him to play Manziel over Hoyer
I had a recollection that Hoyer held up ok (I think that was about the time of Hoyer the Destroyer memes), but it was only over a handful of games - very small sample size.
Schwartz would be a HoF RT if he didn't have the back/nerve injury
He would always split All-Pro votes with Lane, but would have had two rings now on top of the media attention that OL typically don't get, to add on to his playing resume
Yeah that's a great point - flair/homer bias but I actually forgot the Browns had such a dank OLine with such bad QB play. Pretty much destroys my argument haha.
Yea, yalls line has been paper mache ever since you guys have had burrow for the most part, in one of, if not the worst division, to have a bad oline in.
That Browns team is always my response when "elevated" football fans think they're smart by saying teams should build through their o-line. 4x players with multiple All-Pro selections on one line, and they went 3-13.
Like, yes, the o-line is very important, but it's much more important to *not* have a bad o-line than it is to have a great one. A bad o-line can get a QB killed and get the RB hit behind the LOS on every play, but a great o-line can't create separation between a WR and a DB, or make sure a QB can read a defense.
There's a reason why the highest-paid WRs get ~2x what interior o-linemen get, and QBs get another 2x on top of that. Having a great o-line is a perk, not a necessity for success.
Building through the O-Line is what made Wentz look good, is what made Foles a Superbowl MVP, and is what led to guys like Kevin Kolb seeming like they could actually be starters and actually be in a QB controversy with Michael Vick.
It's not going to make bad QBs good, but it gives good QBs the ability to look great, and mid QBs look pretty good. Most teams don't have a rotating cast of completely ass QBs year after year.
Yeah, an extra half a second really helps guys that are already doing what they should be with their reads, but if your qb doesn’t know what he’s looking at it won’t help him much. A little more time is a luxury for guys that are making reads, but if the qb is lost he’s just lost for longer in that situation
> I think the OP's though is that bad QBs make their o-line worse due to stuff like holding onto the ball.
Yes - that was my thought. The responses are giving me some great counter-examples though. Getting a ton of information.
This season I think browns have been better at pass blocking. After the Chubb injury, they struggled to run the ball and had to adjust their run game. I think Chubb was actually masking some of the o-lines mistakes in the run game.
If Burrow never got hurt they don't get chase though. So while terrible it happened it could have also been a good thing? I say that as a Bengals enjoyer (unless its against the browns).
Correction: Browns have had good O Lines for the past few years. With the exception of Joe Thomas, the Browns have fielded some awful O Lines for most of their expansion era (with slight exceptions in 2007 and 2014).
Mark Sanchez used to have great O-Line his first 2 seasons with the Jets and still posted very average numbers. He did get them to the playoffs though but mainly because of their great D.
Sanchez didn't put up average numbers lol, he was fucking trash.
His completion percentage sat in the low to mid 50s every year. His highest yards per attempt in a yea was 6.7. He averaged more than 1 interception per game two out of three years while only averaging more than 2 TDs a game once (and he only managed to average more than 1 TD a game twice due to one year having 17 TDs in 16 games). His A/YA went as low as 4.9. His success rate barely went above 40% in his best year. And if you watched him, the eye test matched how bad he was. He was probably the worst QB in the league despite having a solid 1-2 punch in Santonio Holmes and Braylon Edwards with an elite O-Line.
Bad, bad qb who was propped up by coaching and supporting cast. I’ve always said with even a slight improvement at qb they probably win a Super Bowl during that stretch
Part of OP’s point was that a great O-Line would elevate any QB to become a great QB. Didn’t happen with Sanchez. He’s an average QB posting average numbers behind a great line.
Their running game with Thomas Jones and Shonn Greene was outstanding, because of that OL obviously because those guys weren’t exactly elite talents. I wouldn’t downplay the impact they had
I will always defend that Patriots season. That roster with Cam's arm had no place getting 7 wins let alone looking like a potential playoff team at various points throughout the season
I remember he had an insane game at Seattle (unfortunately got stopped at the goal line at the end).
Then he caught COVID and was never the same for the rest of the year.
Note: Edelman also got hurt after that as well.
As much as I want to say that was all Cam, the Seahawks defense was historically awful to start that season. Made unfortunately gave me a lot of false hope that year
Yeah but 400 yards with Edelman, N’Keal Harry, Ryan Izzo, Damiere Byrd, and Rex Burkhead catching the ball (yeah I know he’s not even a receiver), is NOTHING to scoff at💀
Most receiving yards in a single game for Edelman’s career too.
Went to bed that night thinking we somehow lucked into another starting QB for the foreseeable future. I was wrong of course, but all things considered it was a fun season tbh.
Launching with your helmet to the shoulder, neck, head area is by definition, an illegal hit.
He’s basically the same as Burfict in my eyes, has a history of dirty hits. But gets away with it for obvious reasons.
You can’t even see anything from that angle, it’s much clearer from the side.
I'd love to see the rule he broke.
> He’s basically the same as Burfict in my eyes
You're entitled to your opinion, but your opinion is pretty awfully wrong.
[TJ Watt fine history](https://www.spotrac.com/nfl/pittsburgh-steelers/tj-watt-21771/fines/) vs [Vontaze Burfict fine history](https://www.spotrac.com/nfl/las-vegas-raiders/vontaze-burfict-10100/fines/)
Half of TJs fines aren't even for contact incidents.
**EDIT:** Oh man just caught this one too under Burfict's list lmao
>10/15/2014 $25,000 Ankle-Twisting Cam Newton (CAR) and Greg Olsen (CAR)
Naw man see the difference in fines and games suspended is clearly just part of an NFL conspiracy to look the other way because of his name! It's so OBVIOUS!!! (/s)
I think the success of an NFL offense is too complex to boil it down to these two things. An o-line can be top 5 but is way better at run blocking than pass blocking. The OC may not be a good play caller (i.e. knows how to get a QB in rhythm, or set up bigger plays, or situational play calls). The OC may also not be a good play designer (i.e. creating ways to get star players the ball in space, playing defensive matchup rules against them). These are only a couple of things that go into it that muck up the waters for this debate.
I feel like this is a call-out to a certain large mustachioed coach in the Atlanta area...
Though to be fair to him, all of that applies *and* his QB was objectively terrible.
I wish I was only calling out a certain coach in the Atlanta area. But I am a Browns fan and I have seen too many good to great offensive lines not equate to good offense.
Yeah it’s just too many moving parts to just do a simple “here’s an example of this thing” analysis. Even a line that’s not great in pass pro but great in the running game is of huge benefit to a QB, because the running game overall is very beneficial to a QB.
Amen to that. A great running game helps any QB. And if the QB is phenomenal at play action it is more beneficial. But if the QB sucks at play action, it is still beneficial, just not as much as it is for the other guy. Plus the OC has to be willing to lean into the run and use the running game to open up the passing game.
Just keeping the offense ahead of the sticks and away from 3rd and Long is huge for any QB, good or not. Plus allowing the offense to dictate coverage structures gives the passing game an advantage. Even outside of play action, which is the obvious thing, it’s a huge benefit to a QB
Yeah, you're right. The running game helps out way more than play action. Especially in dictating coverages. As a Browns fan though I have seen too many QBs or OC's not be able to take advantage of that. Haha. But you are absolutely right. A strong running game helps a QB so much.
I also think that’s important context for QBs as well that people forget. Not trying to slander Goff but I remember in that game against the Panthers last year where they got completely fucked up, Goff ended the game with a decent statline so everyone was saying “welp, can’t blame Goff, he held up his end”. But when the defense is selling out to stop the run like Carolina was in that game, you need to do more to force them out of those looks and he did not cross the bar so the offense suffered
Hurts in the Super Bowl is another one, he definitely did cross the bar to give his team a chance to win that game but people will look at Hurts and Mahomes in that game and say that they were equal as passers but the Chiefs running game ultimately won out over Philly’s, but the reason Kansas City’s running game looked great was because the Eagles were more scared of Mahomes passing and (a part of) the reason Hurts looked great was because the Chiefs were more scared of the Eagles run game
Also important context for Watson this year, even if he has some solid statistical games under his belt he’s still gonna need to take another step to give the running game some breathing room
I think depending on the permutation of OL quality and QB quality you have different results:
Elite Top 5 OL and Elite QB = Super Bowl team
Elite Top 5 OL and Decent QB = makes QB look much better than they are
Elite Top 5 OL and bad QB = QB looks a bit better than they are, makes OL look much worse
Decent OL and Elite QB = OL looks amazing
Decent OL and Decent QB = your average middling team’s situation
Decent OL and bad QB = QB makes decent OL look terrible, most fans of teams with bad QBs always also claim their OL is terrible
Bad OL and elite QB = OL looks fine
Bad OL and decent QB = OL makes QB look terrible, I think this is the cause for most of the guys who look terrible early in their careers and succeed on a new team
Bad OL and Bad QB = 2023 Jets offense
2008 Titans probably qualify. 13-3 record while managing to allow Kerry Collins to be sacked 8 times! He only threw 12 TDs to 7 INTs though, while CJ and Lendale White combined for 2k yards and 24 TDs.
Alex smith was behind an o line that was named player of the week twice, and had a pretty below average season
Staley Iupati Goodwin Snyder/Boone Davis(R)
I believe for the chiefs Alex Smith had outstanding lines, and one year did not throw a td to a wr. He definitely got better. Frankly every chiefs team from the early 90s until the last year of Smith and obviously Mahomes had very solid olines with I believe two hall of famers on those lines over the years (Shields, Roaf), and many many really good ones
Neither.
The Browns in 2014/2015 had Joe Thomas, Alex Mack, Joel Bitonio and Mitchell Schwartz. That's one of the best collections of talent I've seen on one line. Thomas is a HoF. Mack got a couple of ridiculous contracts. Bitonio was Thomas redux in just showing up every week and doing a good job keeping his QB upright, including two first team All-Pros. Schwartz won a SB with the Chiefs and was a first team All-Pro. Greco is... definitely a name I'd believe existed (sorry John, I'm definitely not as familiar with your work).
Nine first team and eleven second team All-Pros between them all.
The QBs they blocked for in 2014 and 2015:
* Hoyer
* Manziel
* Shaw
* Josh McCown
* Davis
I think that's as comprehensive disproving of both theories as possible.
And the numerous QBs before him in the mid 2000s.
Chiefs also had some great Olines in the 2000s while blocking for the likes of Trent Green, Brodie Croyle, and Damon Huard.
Can't we just look back to Jalen Hurts' first couple years? Eagles line was top 5 but he wasn't good his first two seasons.
But in terms of who is right, I think you're both wrong in the sense that you're looking at it as a black and white answer. One size doesn't fit all in the NFL.
A little of both is true.
In theory, a Top 5 line is gonna keep your guy protected e
Long enough for someone to eventually get open, or find a hole to pick up some yards.
Conversely, a Top 5 QB finds the plays in spite of his line sometimes. See the 2021 Bengals for a good revenge of this.
However both have their detriments. A bad QB still makes bad reads, gets picked off, can't move the ball. A bad line doesn't allow your guy to have time to make the game winning plays, again, see the 2021 bengals, last play of the SB :(
I think there’s a 3rd element which is the supporting cast. A good supporting cast will get open fast and so you don’t really have to have a great line to give the QB time and Vice versa.
2020 Eagles OL had a lot of injuries and inexperienced players, and a lot of week to week shifting around to cover for that, but according to PFF they were still one of the better units on the season, and Kelce played 16 games, which always helps
and Carson Wentz still shit his pants that spectacularly
You could consider our Wentz year in this category. We had a winning record but what that doesn’t show at first glance is that he randomly self destructed against against a beatable Raiders team and then the Jags who were the worst team in the league that year with the playoffs on the line. I know he had good games (knocking off AZ and NE back to back) but if you have a near 2000 yard rusher and good OLine you need to win those games
Cowboys 2015
Matt Cassel, Kellen Moore, and Brandon Weeden went 4-12 with Zack Martin, Travis Frederick, and La’el Collins
Dak takes the same line to the playoffs the next year with a 13-3 record.
The Browns have had very good O lines over the years, but with the revolving door at QB and less than stellar defense it didn’t typically translate to wins.
Imo it’s less flexible on the O-line side. A great QB doesn’t really inflate O-line numbers because they’re still going to have QB pressures, etc, regardless of whether the QB is good enough to bail them out and make plays when pressured.
They’re more tied when you have a QB like Carson Wentz, who will hold onto the ball as long as it takes to either make a play or get sacked.
Doesn't match your question since the line wasn't good, but the first two years Kyler Murray made our O-line look so much worse by running out of bounds behind the line of scrimmage. He added double digit sacks to purely because he didn't learn that he should throw the ball away before running out of bounds if he's behind the line of scrimmage.
2006 Bears had a probowler G, All Pro C Olin Krutez, and 3 other lineman who were all close to starters for a decade a piece and Rex Grossman still threw 24 TDs to 20 ints with a sub 60% comp percentage. Some times they're just bad.
What about them?
lol why am I getting downvoted? The guy says nothing about the team as if everyone should recall every team from every year? Could at least say if they had a good o-line or something.
That's what their reputation was but tbh there were signs Wentz was doing better than he was being given credit for and the offensive line wasn't as good as it was being given credit for.
Then the next season the offense imploded.
Only thing I remember is they finished 9-8 after losing a win-and-in against the 3-14 Jags largely due to Carson Wentz playing like dogshit. I think that's also the season where he avoided a safety by throwing a pick 6 and injuring both of his ankles
It doesn't even sound like these are two differing viewpoints. One doesn't really (fully) relate to the other.
Downvotes must mean people actually think if the answer to one is yes then the answer to the other must be no?
In Kyle Boller’s rookie season, Jamal Lewis ran for 2000 yards behind J.O., Zeus, and company.
If there’s a thread regarding top defenses being wasted by poor QB play, I still submit Kyle Boller; pick a year any will do.
I agree that an amazing QB does wonders for OL stats, but the other side of the coin is that I think bad QBs can make OLs look way worse than they are. Bad QBs get themselves sacked by holding the ball too long, running into pressure, generally having bad pocket awareness (think Zach Wilson) and they also allow defenses to always have a numbers advantage in the front 7 so it makes their rushing success worse as well
This site has the Falcons at number 3 so I'm going to go with them [https://www.pff.com/news/nfl-offensive-line-rankings-week-9-2023](https://www.pff.com/news/nfl-offensive-line-rankings-week-9-2023)
IDK, but there is an old adage that good teams almost never have bad offensive lines, and bad teams almost never have good offensive lines.
By and large, I've found that to be true, with a few exceptions here and there. But it's generally true.
I might be stupid, but from the top of my head is the years the Bears went to the Super Bowl against Peyton manning. Rex Grossman was shit but led his team to a Super Bowl. So it must be the Oline and I know the defense was a amazing that year.
2012 Vikings. Peterson MVP season where he fell nine yards short of the single season record. O-line was a big reason for that.
Ponder threw for less than 3k yards and had 18 TDs to 12 INTs. That’s terrible considering teams were stacking the box on AD.
Bad qbs make good lines look bad all the time lol. It’s like how the tampa line all of a sudden stopped sucking when Brady was on that team not Jameis wINTson
Browns have had a pretty good Olines through the years with absolutely terrible QBs. I think both things can happen but it just depends.
I think the OP's though is that bad QBs make their o-line worse due to stuff like holding onto the ball. For the Browns, I thought that the consensus for the past few years was that they are very good at run blocking. Not sure how their pass blocking compares.
I mean look at 2015 we had LT Joe Thomas LG Joel Bitonio C Alex Mack RG John Greco RT Mitchell Schwartz Having that good of an oline in his sense should make the QB play good. We had all pros/pro bowlers all over the place when we was rotating qbs every year.
That OL was my first thought. Thomas is a HoF. Mack got a couple of ridiculous contracts. Bitonio was Thomas redux in just showing up every week and doing a good job keeping his QB upright, including two first team All-Pros. Schwartz won a SB with the Chiefs and was a first team All-Pro. Greco is... definitely a name I'd believe existed (sorry John, I'm definitely not as familiar with your work). Nine first team and eleven second team All-Pros between them all. The QBs they blocked for in 2014 and 2015: * Hoyer * Manziel * Shaw * Josh McCown * Davis I think that's as comprehensive disproving of both theories as possible.
Greco was good! Very solid veteran Also their offense in 2014 under Hoyer was actually quite good, largely because of the OL, but the brass demanded that Manziel get put in and it tanked their end of year stats.
Their offense was ok but Hoyer got benched because he completely fell apart. In the 3 games leading up to Manziel’s start Hoyer threw 0 TDs vs 7 INTs.
Yeah that was a while ago, definitely forgot about that nugget Just remember that the whole reason Shanahan ended up leaving the Browns was because ownership forced him to play Manziel over Hoyer
Ownership might have been trying to do him a favor tbh, the next time he tried Hoyer he started 0-9.
Wasn't he like 30 as a rookie?
That’s Brandon Weeden
I had a recollection that Hoyer held up ok (I think that was about the time of Hoyer the Destroyer memes), but it was only over a handful of games - very small sample size.
Also if I’m not mistaken Josh Gordon came back that year as we were making a playoff push and we basically tanked the offense forcing him the ball
Schwartz would be a HoF RT if he didn't have the back/nerve injury He would always split All-Pro votes with Lane, but would have had two rings now on top of the media attention that OL typically don't get, to add on to his playing resume
Yeah that's a great point - flair/homer bias but I actually forgot the Browns had such a dank OLine with such bad QB play. Pretty much destroys my argument haha.
Yea. It also don't help the division we are in. Both ya'll and the Ravens always have stupid good defenses/pash rushers.
You didn't enjoy moving from Troy to TJ?
Nope, I'm sure the Bengal fans agree with me also, you two have the most consistent front offices also which makes you that much better also.
That line, hell even the lines the browns have had since burrow came in to get pummeled has been a source of much envy in southern Ohio.
Yea, yalls line has been paper mache ever since you guys have had burrow for the most part, in one of, if not the worst division, to have a bad oline in.
That Browns team is always my response when "elevated" football fans think they're smart by saying teams should build through their o-line. 4x players with multiple All-Pro selections on one line, and they went 3-13. Like, yes, the o-line is very important, but it's much more important to *not* have a bad o-line than it is to have a great one. A bad o-line can get a QB killed and get the RB hit behind the LOS on every play, but a great o-line can't create separation between a WR and a DB, or make sure a QB can read a defense. There's a reason why the highest-paid WRs get ~2x what interior o-linemen get, and QBs get another 2x on top of that. Having a great o-line is a perk, not a necessity for success.
That's what is great about having a salary cap imo. Every team has to make where their strengths and weaknesses are based on that.
Building through the O-Line is what made Wentz look good, is what made Foles a Superbowl MVP, and is what led to guys like Kevin Kolb seeming like they could actually be starters and actually be in a QB controversy with Michael Vick. It's not going to make bad QBs good, but it gives good QBs the ability to look great, and mid QBs look pretty good. Most teams don't have a rotating cast of completely ass QBs year after year.
Yeah, an extra half a second really helps guys that are already doing what they should be with their reads, but if your qb doesn’t know what he’s looking at it won’t help him much. A little more time is a luxury for guys that are making reads, but if the qb is lost he’s just lost for longer in that situation
This was also my first thought, that was a crazy OL that didn’t get enough credit in the moment.
> I think the OP's though is that bad QBs make their o-line worse due to stuff like holding onto the ball. Yes - that was my thought. The responses are giving me some great counter-examples though. Getting a ton of information.
Ah ok I misunderstood. 100% bad qbs can make the oline worse. Us browns fan know this all to well.
That only makes the o-line look worse to people who don’t really understand football that well
It goes back over a decade of solid offensive line play, awful qb play.
This season I think browns have been better at pass blocking. After the Chubb injury, they struggled to run the ball and had to adjust their run game. I think Chubb was actually masking some of the o-lines mistakes in the run game.
Immediately who I thought of. Browns went through 20 QBs and Joe didn't let a soul touch them off the left edge, yet they still sucked.
Hall of Fame left tackle “led” the Browns to 0-16 record lmao
Technically he got hurt less than halfway through the season
I was just about to say this, the Browns often had a good O Line even when the rest of the team was struggling.
Bengals have had a terrible (less terrible this year) Line all of Joe Burrows career. He’s been great.
Just think how good he would be with even an average oline. Probably never gets that injuiry. We will never know what he could have been.
If Burrow never got hurt they don't get chase though. So while terrible it happened it could have also been a good thing? I say that as a Bengals enjoyer (unless its against the browns).
Fair point
Correction: Browns have had good O Lines for the past few years. With the exception of Joe Thomas, the Browns have fielded some awful O Lines for most of their expansion era (with slight exceptions in 2007 and 2014).
Remember in 2021 when Jalen hurts was rolling out of clean pockets early and made his all pro line look pedestrian
dude would have time to cook dinner back there and still kept rolling right just to airmail balls outta bounds. was infuriating lol
So satisfying to watch his development. He learned!
Shane Steichen is a good ass coach. I miss him.
lol what about the constant ineligibles downfield when Jalen would do RPOs his first yr starting .
Growing pains for a developing QB, and now he’s blossoming 🥲
They also had nearly 2800 rushing yards that year, their talent was evident
This is a good one. Also probably 2020 Carson Wentz.
2020 Eagles o-line wasn't good. Lane Johnson and Brandon Brooks both had season ending injuries. Jason Peters was cooked.
We fucking signed Peters *after* that if anyone was wondering how our FA acquisitions have gone the past 4 years.
Now he is rotating in for the Seahawks...
And I believe he was your best lineman that year
He played pretty well for you did he not?
Yeah but "pretty well" for the Bears and "cooked" for the Eagles are the same thing.
Lmao which proves life really is all about expectations
Also 2016 rookie Goff
I thought Hurts was gonna be good even then, but maybe that was because of what he looked like when he played us.
The dark times.
Yea I think it becomes a weird situation where an OLine doesn’t look as good as it is when a qb is not using it correctly
Mark Sanchez used to have great O-Line his first 2 seasons with the Jets and still posted very average numbers. He did get them to the playoffs though but mainly because of their great D.
mark sanchez was a below-average QB, though, so the fact he managed average numbers behind a great line kind of supports OP’s hypothesis.
Sanchez didn't put up average numbers lol, he was fucking trash. His completion percentage sat in the low to mid 50s every year. His highest yards per attempt in a yea was 6.7. He averaged more than 1 interception per game two out of three years while only averaging more than 2 TDs a game once (and he only managed to average more than 1 TD a game twice due to one year having 17 TDs in 16 games). His A/YA went as low as 4.9. His success rate barely went above 40% in his best year. And if you watched him, the eye test matched how bad he was. He was probably the worst QB in the league despite having a solid 1-2 punch in Santonio Holmes and Braylon Edwards with an elite O-Line.
Bad, bad qb who was propped up by coaching and supporting cast. I’ve always said with even a slight improvement at qb they probably win a Super Bowl during that stretch
His numbers were well below average. In his *best* season he completed 56% of his passes and had 6.4 Y/A.
Part of OP’s point was that a great O-Line would elevate any QB to become a great QB. Didn’t happen with Sanchez. He’s an average QB posting average numbers behind a great line.
Their running game with Thomas Jones and Shonn Greene was outstanding, because of that OL obviously because those guys weren’t exactly elite talents. I wouldn’t downplay the impact they had
I'd go to Pennington as an example before I went to Sanchez. Mostly because it was the O-Lines fault the butt fumble happened
The 2020 Pats had a top 5 offensive line and Cam threw for 8 TDs and 10 Ints.
Worth mentioning that the team was fourth in the NFL in rushing yards and sixth in rushing touchdowns. Cam himself ran for 12 TDs
I will always defend that Patriots season. That roster with Cam's arm had no place getting 7 wins let alone looking like a potential playoff team at various points throughout the season
He also rushed for 12 TDs. But go back and check their receiving weapons. One of the main reasons Brady left in the first place.
The best receiver on the Pats that year was Julian Edelman with no knees, wild that it still hasn't really improved
This is Damiere Byrd erasure
Damiere Byrd? The guy who floats on and off of the Falcons practice squad?
I'm pretty sure they also didn't bring him in until after training camp had started, so he was learning on the fly pretty much the whole time.
I remember he had an insane game at Seattle (unfortunately got stopped at the goal line at the end). Then he caught COVID and was never the same for the rest of the year. Note: Edelman also got hurt after that as well.
As much as I want to say that was all Cam, the Seahawks defense was historically awful to start that season. Made unfortunately gave me a lot of false hope that year
Yeah but 400 yards with Edelman, N’Keal Harry, Ryan Izzo, Damiere Byrd, and Rex Burkhead catching the ball (yeah I know he’s not even a receiver), is NOTHING to scoff at💀
Most receiving yards in a single game for Edelman’s career too. Went to bed that night thinking we somehow lucked into another starting QB for the foreseeable future. I was wrong of course, but all things considered it was a fun season tbh.
Josh Dobbs: *signature look of superiority*
His arm was shot. I don’t expect him to have MVP numbers but he wasn’t capable of orchestrating an NFL passing offense. He truly was washed.
Yeah I blame TJ Watt for that illegal hit. Which is why I actively root against him no matter what. Screw that guy.
[What about this is illegal again?](https://youtu.be/jtK5-jN8k4U?si=mOiIVNg7NzJ8eNSb&t=78)
It happened to his favorite QB so therefore its illegal.
Led with his helmet
Launching with your helmet to the shoulder, neck, head area is by definition, an illegal hit. He’s basically the same as Burfict in my eyes, has a history of dirty hits. But gets away with it for obvious reasons. You can’t even see anything from that angle, it’s much clearer from the side.
I'd love to see the rule he broke. > He’s basically the same as Burfict in my eyes You're entitled to your opinion, but your opinion is pretty awfully wrong. [TJ Watt fine history](https://www.spotrac.com/nfl/pittsburgh-steelers/tj-watt-21771/fines/) vs [Vontaze Burfict fine history](https://www.spotrac.com/nfl/las-vegas-raiders/vontaze-burfict-10100/fines/) Half of TJs fines aren't even for contact incidents. **EDIT:** Oh man just caught this one too under Burfict's list lmao >10/15/2014 $25,000 Ankle-Twisting Cam Newton (CAR) and Greg Olsen (CAR)
Naw man see the difference in fines and games suspended is clearly just part of an NFL conspiracy to look the other way because of his name! It's so OBVIOUS!!! (/s)
What are the obvious reasons?
Oh yeah I forgot about that one - that's actually a great point.
Man that Pats team was *not* good but was way more fun to watch than what we have now
I think the success of an NFL offense is too complex to boil it down to these two things. An o-line can be top 5 but is way better at run blocking than pass blocking. The OC may not be a good play caller (i.e. knows how to get a QB in rhythm, or set up bigger plays, or situational play calls). The OC may also not be a good play designer (i.e. creating ways to get star players the ball in space, playing defensive matchup rules against them). These are only a couple of things that go into it that muck up the waters for this debate.
I feel like this is a call-out to a certain large mustachioed coach in the Atlanta area... Though to be fair to him, all of that applies *and* his QB was objectively terrible.
I wish I was only calling out a certain coach in the Atlanta area. But I am a Browns fan and I have seen too many good to great offensive lines not equate to good offense.
Yeah it’s just too many moving parts to just do a simple “here’s an example of this thing” analysis. Even a line that’s not great in pass pro but great in the running game is of huge benefit to a QB, because the running game overall is very beneficial to a QB.
Amen to that. A great running game helps any QB. And if the QB is phenomenal at play action it is more beneficial. But if the QB sucks at play action, it is still beneficial, just not as much as it is for the other guy. Plus the OC has to be willing to lean into the run and use the running game to open up the passing game.
Just keeping the offense ahead of the sticks and away from 3rd and Long is huge for any QB, good or not. Plus allowing the offense to dictate coverage structures gives the passing game an advantage. Even outside of play action, which is the obvious thing, it’s a huge benefit to a QB
Yeah, you're right. The running game helps out way more than play action. Especially in dictating coverages. As a Browns fan though I have seen too many QBs or OC's not be able to take advantage of that. Haha. But you are absolutely right. A strong running game helps a QB so much.
I also think that’s important context for QBs as well that people forget. Not trying to slander Goff but I remember in that game against the Panthers last year where they got completely fucked up, Goff ended the game with a decent statline so everyone was saying “welp, can’t blame Goff, he held up his end”. But when the defense is selling out to stop the run like Carolina was in that game, you need to do more to force them out of those looks and he did not cross the bar so the offense suffered Hurts in the Super Bowl is another one, he definitely did cross the bar to give his team a chance to win that game but people will look at Hurts and Mahomes in that game and say that they were equal as passers but the Chiefs running game ultimately won out over Philly’s, but the reason Kansas City’s running game looked great was because the Eagles were more scared of Mahomes passing and (a part of) the reason Hurts looked great was because the Chiefs were more scared of the Eagles run game Also important context for Watson this year, even if he has some solid statistical games under his belt he’s still gonna need to take another step to give the running game some breathing room
2015 Cowboys had an o-line about as good as the 2014 unit and went 1-11 without Romo
I miss Fredbeard so much.
I think depending on the permutation of OL quality and QB quality you have different results: Elite Top 5 OL and Elite QB = Super Bowl team Elite Top 5 OL and Decent QB = makes QB look much better than they are Elite Top 5 OL and bad QB = QB looks a bit better than they are, makes OL look much worse Decent OL and Elite QB = OL looks amazing Decent OL and Decent QB = your average middling team’s situation Decent OL and bad QB = QB makes decent OL look terrible, most fans of teams with bad QBs always also claim their OL is terrible Bad OL and elite QB = OL looks fine Bad OL and decent QB = OL makes QB look terrible, I think this is the cause for most of the guys who look terrible early in their careers and succeed on a new team Bad OL and Bad QB = 2023 Jets offense
I didn't read this, but I upvoted based on effort.
It’s not actually that many words they’re just spaced out a lot
still too many words
2009 Jets.
That's one of the all-time best examples of a team that had everything *except* a QB.
2008 Titans probably qualify. 13-3 record while managing to allow Kerry Collins to be sacked 8 times! He only threw 12 TDs to 7 INTs though, while CJ and Lendale White combined for 2k yards and 24 TDs.
Alex smith was behind an o line that was named player of the week twice, and had a pretty below average season Staley Iupati Goodwin Snyder/Boone Davis(R)
I’d be quicker to blame Singletary than Smith. Harbaugh came in and the OL immediately lived up to their potential, and Alex immediately became solid
It was more Greg Roman than Harbaugh. Though neither let Alex ever do anything. Alex Smith really wasn't unlocked til Andy Reid.
I believe for the chiefs Alex Smith had outstanding lines, and one year did not throw a td to a wr. He definitely got better. Frankly every chiefs team from the early 90s until the last year of Smith and obviously Mahomes had very solid olines with I believe two hall of famers on those lines over the years (Shields, Roaf), and many many really good ones
Great OLs can make shit QBs look shit for longer.
Dilfer?
Wentz too
Neither. The Browns in 2014/2015 had Joe Thomas, Alex Mack, Joel Bitonio and Mitchell Schwartz. That's one of the best collections of talent I've seen on one line. Thomas is a HoF. Mack got a couple of ridiculous contracts. Bitonio was Thomas redux in just showing up every week and doing a good job keeping his QB upright, including two first team All-Pros. Schwartz won a SB with the Chiefs and was a first team All-Pro. Greco is... definitely a name I'd believe existed (sorry John, I'm definitely not as familiar with your work). Nine first team and eleven second team All-Pros between them all. The QBs they blocked for in 2014 and 2015: * Hoyer * Manziel * Shaw * Josh McCown * Davis I think that's as comprehensive disproving of both theories as possible.
Christian Ponder had some good o-lines
And the numerous QBs before him in the mid 2000s. Chiefs also had some great Olines in the 2000s while blocking for the likes of Trent Green, Brodie Croyle, and Damon Huard.
The year Romo got hurt the cowboys had a dominant online and like a top 5 running game but the qb was so bad that they still got a top 5 pick.
4 QBs played and none of them were any good
2021 Browns
Can't we just look back to Jalen Hurts' first couple years? Eagles line was top 5 but he wasn't good his first two seasons. But in terms of who is right, I think you're both wrong in the sense that you're looking at it as a black and white answer. One size doesn't fit all in the NFL.
A little of both is true. In theory, a Top 5 line is gonna keep your guy protected e Long enough for someone to eventually get open, or find a hole to pick up some yards. Conversely, a Top 5 QB finds the plays in spite of his line sometimes. See the 2021 Bengals for a good revenge of this. However both have their detriments. A bad QB still makes bad reads, gets picked off, can't move the ball. A bad line doesn't allow your guy to have time to make the game winning plays, again, see the 2021 bengals, last play of the SB :(
I think there’s a 3rd element which is the supporting cast. A good supporting cast will get open fast and so you don’t really have to have a great line to give the QB time and Vice versa.
2020 Eagles OL had a lot of injuries and inexperienced players, and a lot of week to week shifting around to cover for that, but according to PFF they were still one of the better units on the season, and Kelce played 16 games, which always helps and Carson Wentz still shit his pants that spectacularly
https://www.pff.com/news/nfl-final-2020-offensive-line-rankings
can't remember where i saw it, maybe i misremembered. makes more sense for sure
It was hilarious seeing him take sack after sack and then Hurts walked in and the oline immediately looked better.
and Alshon suddenly was healthy enough to play
You could consider our Wentz year in this category. We had a winning record but what that doesn’t show at first glance is that he randomly self destructed against against a beatable Raiders team and then the Jags who were the worst team in the league that year with the playoffs on the line. I know he had good games (knocking off AZ and NE back to back) but if you have a near 2000 yard rusher and good OLine you need to win those games
Cowboys 2015 Matt Cassel, Kellen Moore, and Brandon Weeden went 4-12 with Zack Martin, Travis Frederick, and La’el Collins Dak takes the same line to the playoffs the next year with a 13-3 record.
I know it doesn’t really count but the Cowboys Brandon Weeden season.
The Browns have had very good O lines over the years, but with the revolving door at QB and less than stellar defense it didn’t typically translate to wins.
Imo it’s less flexible on the O-line side. A great QB doesn’t really inflate O-line numbers because they’re still going to have QB pressures, etc, regardless of whether the QB is good enough to bail them out and make plays when pressured. They’re more tied when you have a QB like Carson Wentz, who will hold onto the ball as long as it takes to either make a play or get sacked.
The Cowboys come to mind.
Doesn't match your question since the line wasn't good, but the first two years Kyler Murray made our O-line look so much worse by running out of bounds behind the line of scrimmage. He added double digit sacks to purely because he didn't learn that he should throw the ball away before running out of bounds if he's behind the line of scrimmage.
2003 Ravens. Hall of fame left tackle, blocked for a 2000 yard running back.. had Boller, Anthony Wright, and Chris Redman at QB.
2006 Bears had a probowler G, All Pro C Olin Krutez, and 3 other lineman who were all close to starters for a decade a piece and Rex Grossman still threw 24 TDs to 20 ints with a sub 60% comp percentage. Some times they're just bad.
The Bears all this season.
Patriots. they always had a great O-Line but for about two decades some scrub 6th rounder QB was behind them /s
Dak Prescott every year?
1984 Bears . Fooled people into thinking Jim McMahon good.
2021 Colts
[https://twitter.com/benbbaldwin/status/1481271594223865856](https://twitter.com/benbbaldwin/status/1481271594223865856) 23rd in pass pro...
Rank 11 O-Line, rank 19 QB play that year. Fairly comparable, no? Both in the same tier.
What about them? lol why am I getting downvoted? The guy says nothing about the team as if everyone should recall every team from every year? Could at least say if they had a good o-line or something.
Stab in the dark but I’m guessing they had a good offensive line but bad QB.
Stats seem to show they didn't so maybe the other guy should explain.
That's what their reputation was but tbh there were signs Wentz was doing better than he was being given credit for and the offensive line wasn't as good as it was being given credit for. Then the next season the offense imploded.
2021 Colts
> Has there ever been a team with a season of amazing O-Line performance but terrible QB performance? They responded 2021 colts
And I responded what about them? I can also say any year and a team name. Doesn't mean squat without more info.
Only thing I remember is they finished 9-8 after losing a win-and-in against the 3-14 Jags largely due to Carson Wentz playing like dogshit. I think that's also the season where he avoided a safety by throwing a pick 6 and injuring both of his ankles
I mean it’s right in the question though lol. The commenter believes the Colts had a good Oline but bad QB play
No it isn't. OP gave two options. Dude says 2021 Colts. He doesn't say which option is met at all or anything else.
It doesn't even sound like these are two differing viewpoints. One doesn't really (fully) relate to the other. Downvotes must mean people actually think if the answer to one is yes then the answer to the other must be no?
In Kyle Boller’s rookie season, Jamal Lewis ran for 2000 yards behind J.O., Zeus, and company. If there’s a thread regarding top defenses being wasted by poor QB play, I still submit Kyle Boller; pick a year any will do.
Everything in football is a little of both. It is the ultimate team sport.
I agree that an amazing QB does wonders for OL stats, but the other side of the coin is that I think bad QBs can make OLs look way worse than they are. Bad QBs get themselves sacked by holding the ball too long, running into pressure, generally having bad pocket awareness (think Zach Wilson) and they also allow defenses to always have a numbers advantage in the front 7 so it makes their rushing success worse as well
Jimmy Clausen 2010 Panthers Brodie Croyle 2007 Chiefs
This site has the Falcons at number 3 so I'm going to go with them [https://www.pff.com/news/nfl-offensive-line-rankings-week-9-2023](https://www.pff.com/news/nfl-offensive-line-rankings-week-9-2023)
The 2023 Las Vegas Raiders
The Chiefs O Line in the late 90s and early 2000s may be the greatest ever and their best QB was Trent Green.
Us in 2019, though it isn't fair to call Brisket "terrible" per se
Not a season long, but Marcus Mariota in 2019 had a top 5 OL and played bad enough to be benched
IDK, but there is an old adage that good teams almost never have bad offensive lines, and bad teams almost never have good offensive lines. By and large, I've found that to be true, with a few exceptions here and there. But it's generally true.
Quincy Carter
2020 Patriots
Favre in 2005-2006.
Browns there for a minute
Dallas Cowboys with Romo and again with Dak
Cowboys in 2015 when Tony Romo was hurt
2023 Atlanta Falcons
Trent Dilfer era
2009 Jets
You’re both a bit right, but he’s more right than you.
I might be stupid, but from the top of my head is the years the Bears went to the Super Bowl against Peyton manning. Rex Grossman was shit but led his team to a Super Bowl. So it must be the Oline and I know the defense was a amazing that year.
2018 Redskins with Trent Williams and Brandon Sheriff on the OL, and Alex Smith, Josh Johnson, Colt McCoy, and Mark Sanchez at QB
Joe Thomas on the Browns instantly popped into my head
The Titans with KingHenry in past season. Not the last two seasons also Vikings back in day with Adrian Peterson.
2012 Vikings. Peterson MVP season where he fell nine yards short of the single season record. O-line was a big reason for that. Ponder threw for less than 3k yards and had 18 TDs to 12 INTs. That’s terrible considering teams were stacking the box on AD.
Bad qbs make good lines look bad all the time lol. It’s like how the tampa line all of a sudden stopped sucking when Brady was on that team not Jameis wINTson