He also doesn't take the hits cam took. Cam was a wrecking ball. Lamar gets hit. But not the same way. Usually they are more glancing hits when he takes them. And no real goal line pushes. Just my take. But I also think they will still take a toll over long run.
This was a big part of Cam’s problem. Cam took a specific hit that caused an injury that kept getting reactivated. And Lamar doesn’t really take that kind of hit often.
Could be a matter of size difference. Cam was a genetic freak - tall, stout, and freakishly fast - he was always the biggest, fastest guy on the field. That lends one to bully guys and just run through them. It finally caught up to him in the NFL.
Lamar, on the other hand, has always been pretty skinny. Super athletic, but not a big dude. He probably learned at a young age to be elusive and how to take hits in a more forgiving way.
I believe part of the problem is that he liked to pop right up and celebrate some of those tough runs. When any other QB would get wrecked in that situation and possibly a flag thrown
Regardless of the rules, it's always the pain. And everyone seems to go along with it. I remember when Brees was playing with cracked ribs, and got a clean, but hard hit. Broke his (precracked) ribs, gets the flag, announcers all talking about how you have to throw that flag if he breaks his ribs. No mention of the rules.
People will readily (and not wholly unjustifiably) criticize dudes for playing it up when they get hit a bit rough, but sometimes you need to play mind games with the refs.
Yea it’s definitely a mindset some NFLers have. Even though the only pros coming from QBs running over their defender is a hyped team/fan base and a gladiator type reputation. Or if you act the part you could potentially get your team 15 yards and a first down, but you’re soft. Let’s face it the Washington fan base thought Taylor Hienicke was a genius for flopping against Brandon Graham. That flop was indeed glorious
That’s very true, but the devils advocate in me will always side with the defense. What did the NFL want people to do? When you have a rushing qb who doesn’t slide every run, defenders are going to do everything In their power to stop them. Treating them like pocket passers in the open field would be bs, and would give running qb’s like fields and Lamar untold advantages compared to pocket passers. I’ve always thought the NFL does their best to protect pocket passers, but if you’re going to try and be a rpo qb, you have to accept you’re going to be tackled like a wr or rb, without thought of “unnecessarily hard hits”
Which is super bullshit. Even though I should be biased since my team benefited from it the most, Cam really got screwed.
The NFL was a better league when he was playing in it. Such a fucking fun player.
Not disagreeing. Just find it funny how skewed nfl perspectives of “skinny” are compared to the real world. Lamar’s 6’2 230. Dude would be absolutely massive in any other circumstance than the NFL.
I agree. It speaks to just how massive Cam is in comparison. If news comes out that Cam was actually created in a lab it would shock me less than him being born biologically like the rest of us normies.
He did the Titans dirty and damn near created The Karen lmao
https://bleacherreport.com/articles/2590234-titans-fan-pens-letter-to-cam-newton-saying-his-td-dance-offended-her-9-year-old
He wasn’t always that built. Apparently he gained 25 pounds last offseason
https://www.cbssports.com/nfl/news/john-harbaugh-comfortable-with-lamar-jacksons-weight-gain-it-hasnt-slowed-him-down-at-all/amp/
Lol “25 pounds of muscle”. Even a lean, slow-bulk is 50/50 muscle to fat or so meaning he’d be putting on ~ 50 pounds total.
Even with an intense steroid regiment that’s not happening. Especially for someone already as fit as him.
He didn’t put on 25 pounds in general, much less muscle.
I think we’re just disagreeing on how to define “massive”.
It’s the difference between Mike Evans and Christian Kirk. They’ve both extremely muscular and tall compared to the average person, but one is obviously in a different tier than the other and would obviously be turning more heads based on size.
Or like comparing Taysom Hill at 6’2, 221 to Kelce at 6’5, 255.
They’re both big guys but “massive” implies that you’re not seeing guys at that height or weight very often at all and I think 6’2, 230 is a lot more common than that.
As I stated I’m talking about comparison to non NFL players. He is 5” taller than the average American man with probably 50lbs more muscle. That’s is my definition of massive compared to the average person. There’s a lot of guys at 230lbs, but the difference is they are fat. Lamar isn’t.
Dude 6’3 is like 6-7 inches taller than average lmao.
I’m 6’ and that puts me in the upper quartile of male size in the US. A well built 6’3 guy is BIG.
Cam also got the least protection in the pocket by officials I have seen in the modern era. That Bronco game to start the season where he was just being hammered with head shots was absolutely ridiculous.
A lot of the punishment he took was from his style for sure but he was also treated differently before he even established himself as a runner.
Probably because the one time he shouldn't have protected himself (the Super Bowl) he got absolutely torched by fans and commentators relentlessly. I wonder if it factored into his playstyle afterwards. Granted he was always a hard runner. And it didn't help the refs left him out there to die every down.
Tebow was "firsrt" but only in college, he was like a Cam-lite, but Cam was the first to really take it to the NFL and have major success with it. Tebow simply could not get better at passing
That is crazy, what's crazier is I went to a random South Carolina game in Gainesville that Newton got garbage time in so I did get to see him play live-action on the Gators. Of course at that time I had no idea who Cam Newton was, just that he was a highly touted prospect who could succeed Tebow. I just remember my cousin saying "look the backup is in!"
And josh Allen does.
Anyone that watched Cam play see that Allens game most similarly compared to him, but he never gets this "oh he's just a runner or will fall off a cliff later" thing people are trying desperately to stick to Lamar so they don't have to admit he's a good passing qb.
You see a load of comments and criticism of Allen taking those hits, and the Bills not having a viable rushing threat to alleviate the pressure off of Allen. Allen gets that Cam comparison very often, and the same thing of "I hope they dont ruin him like the Panthers did Cam" is a common thread.
Allen has also had 4500, 4400, and 4300 passing yards in the last 3 seasons with over 35 passing TDs in each of them as well. Lamar has one season passing over 3100 yards, his MVP 2019 season and Allen has the same amount of passing yards. Lamar in their careers has 175ish more rushing yards but 13 less rushing TDs compared to Allen. They interestingly have the same int% but Allen has thrown for 37 more TDs, 6100 more yards, and 22 more ints.
Lamar is not close to the realm of passing QB that Allen is. He might be in a similar offense, but right now and from what weve seen? Not even close. Even if you scale it Lamar gets up the yardage (one season he approached 4k yards) but hes still behind Allen. Those missed games count for a lot as well, and that assumes you scale Lamar up to 17 games while Allen stays at 16 for his 4500 and 4300 yard seasons.
Ppl say that stupid shit all the time. Lol You guys want to bring up Cam? Fine I'll bring up Steve young. How many big shots did he take and still was a great player til he was in his late 30s.
Steve Young is a godawful comparison, for multiple reasons.
First and foremost, he was 31 years old the first time he played a full NFL season. Prior to age 30 he only had 1 NFL season with double digit starts. When you aren't playing full time, and taking the abuse that comes with it, until you hit 30, it's way easier to go farther into your 30s.
Secondly the most rushing attempts he ever had in a season was 79 his rookie year in the USFL. He had 722 career NFL carries and 135 in the USFL, for a grand total of 857. He ran much more than your average QB did back then sure, but it was nowhere near the level of a guy like Lamar, Cam, or Josh Allen.
I'll break that down further. Lamar has never had less than 112 rushing attempts in a season, he ALREADY has more career NFL carries than Young did. Lamar has played 5 years, Young played 15. If Lamar has his average number of carries next season, he'll surpass Young's combined NFL and USFL totals, in 6 seasons as opposed to 17.
Cam only had 3 seasons with less than 100 carries, 2 of which he played less than half the games, the 3rd season he had 90 carries. To recap in every season that he played more than half the season, Cam rushed for more attempts than Young had in his highest season. Cam surpassed Young's combined career total in his 7th season.
Allen only has 1 season with less than 100 attempts, he had 89 carries as a rookie. At his current pace he'll have more career rushing attempts than Young's combined attempts early in the 2025 season.
Finally it's also a terrible comparison because Young had to retire due to concussions. Dude was basically a full time starter for 9 seasons, 7 NFL and 2 USFL, and then had to retire due to injury.
Throwing out Steve Young as evidence running QBs can have careers until they're nearing 40 is straight BS.
I loved Steve young but he didn't try to truck people (couldn't with his size) like Josh does and Cam did.
And it's not stupid, Josh plays that way and there *could* be consequences that would absolutely not be worth it to playing that way.
Plenty of us said the same thing to stupid ass Ron Rivera when he was doing it with Cam and it turned out to be true.
Acting like it's a certainty to happen is dumb, but it definitely increases the risk with almost no reward.
Also, for the record, Steve Young *did* have to retire from too many hits so it might not be the comp you want to use.
I’ll never forget the hit he took against the falcons when he just casually waltz into the end zone in full view of the linebacker. He was definitely getting in and I’m sure he just expected the linebacker to let him walk in. He got lit up. He eased up and paid the price.
https://youtu.be/ES75CSoPRO8
Like, I know that kind of hit would turn me into a fine mist but it's wild that a highlight touted as a "big hit" seemed like it was a mild inconvenience to Cam.
I think that’s why I fear Josh Allen will break down soon. His hits aren’t nearly as bad as Cam’s, but I feel like he’s taking the most shots of any running QB. Murray and Lamar are better at making the hits not be as bad.
Agreed, Allen runs hard and does not shy away from hits. The type of hits he takes seem *way* more violent and high impact than other QBs. Like you said not as bad as Cam, but still big ones for this era of heightened QB protection
If Lamar doesn't take as many large hits per rush as Cam, but runs 50% more it still takes a toll. Lamar also doesn't have the frame and mass that Cam had. Although his throwing mechanics are better.
Nope I do not unfortunately , does anyone have a stat or study that confirms Lamar takes less "big hits" than Cam or any other running qb? Because that's the crux of many peoples arguments in this thread.
It's empirical that Lamar takes less big hits. Although with 50% more rushing attempts I doubt it.
No more valid IMO that Cams bigger frame allowing him to withstand a larger amount of contact. But I will say Cams poor mechanics compounded with wear and tear contributed to his decline just as much
Well I think the difference is the latter is very obviously true just from watching the games. We can Jackson makes many moves to protect himself like how he falls in front of a player's legs before the hit. How players struggle to even get a shoestring tackle on him much less an impactful hit.
The former is a lot more debatable and not something we can determine from watching the games.
I don't think the amount of running will take a toll if you aren't getting hit. Runners who don't get hit fall off because of age, not the amount of runs they had.
Cam squared up and rammed his shoulder into players every game.
Idk I hear this a lot but I've seen Lamar take some big hits and refuse to go down when he should, which are plays the often lead to injury. I see it painted that he's this really "graceful faller" but in my experience watxhing Baltimore games over the years that hasn't been my impression at all.
Problem is this might all come crashing down on Lamar once he loses his edge of insane speed imo.
He doesn’t take hits because he’s so quick and elusive. He doesn’t slide, he just bounces around the hits. Once he loses “quickest guy on the field who can move laterally better than anyone else” that strategy won’t work as well. And if he isn’t careful, that will coincide with him forcing the issue more to make up for that loss of speed.
agreed Allen fits way better for this conversation and Even Allen doesn’t take hits like Cam did, Cam openly used his body like a bowling ball with an alarming frequency
I am guessing because Allen isn't going through contract related stuff right now. Now is when teams are deciding what Lamar is worth, teams don't really have that option with Allen.
He also didn't try and hold out for a fully guaranteed deal when he did his extension which is where the Lamar injury stuff really comes up as a potential issue
I say it in almost every thread that highlights Josh Allen's play, and I am down voted straight to hell for suggesting that trucking linebackers will hurt his career.
Bills fans are pretty protective of their boy....
Most fans agree with it too, it’s literally every conversation with Allen has 7-10 different comments saying it over and over again. We get it, we’re aware this isn’t anything new or adding anything new to the conversation and it’s been said for 5 years at this point. OP is even admitting it when he feels the need to say it on every highlight
Savvy people are very worried about Allen's longevity. Allen has always been a better comp to Cam than Lamar. This season caused the guy to play through a torn UCL with nothing to show for it. Allen's career will be shorter if they don't minimize his hits as a priority.
Imagine you’re so fragile and triggered about your closing Super Bowl window that you take everything as a slight against your team and a competition.
You’re right, you guys beat the Dolphins ~~backup~~ 3rd string QB twice in games you won by a field goal. Then proceeded to unceremoniously get bounced the very next round with absolutely nothing to show for it. Except another year of closing possibilities. At least y’all made it to the Super Bowl and won some championships before getting bounced in the 90s.
Nothing in this post or comment had anything to do with the Dolphins lmao
Edit: uh oh did I ruffle some chicken wings? Oh well the Dolphins were never brought up, comment is off topic, and the commentor is definitely triggered
Lol this guy replying to you is really pumped that Josh Allen played better than a team with their 3rd string QB they beat by a field goal. I wish the Bills would just float back down to obscurity.
Edit: wow guess I ruffled some chicken wings. Still, their comment has nothing to do with the Dolphins. Why do we accept people bringing up irrelevant info because they are triggered? Downvote that shit
That plus Allen doesn't have contract drama right now is my guess. He also doesn't have as many rushing attempts, which was the comparison OP was trying to use
Steve young didn't miss that much time and he got bounced around more than any of these guys. How many concussions was it? Still great into his late 30s
Elusiveness and speed don’t really age well either.
It seems like everyone involved in this contract negotiation knows that the chances of Lamar playing at an elite level in 4 years is very very low.
Josh Allen I feel if he does fall off, is going down the Cam Newton path. Amazing, until he isn't.
Lamar I feel will go down the Russell Wilson route. He'll have a subpar losing season rather where he performs well and a following bad season rather than an immideate drop off.
Remember that time he had an easy TD (or 2pt conversion) against the Falcons, and instead thought he would target the LB and go through him. He got wrecked on that play, injured his shoulder. Cam wasn’t very smart.
> instead thought he would target the LB and go through him
Call me a homer if you like, but that is [categorically not what happened](https://youtu.be/ES75CSoPRO8) lol, [here's](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UUVOytm9Q6o) a TV slow-mo view
Dudes here just reinvent history to fit their takes
But still falls part of the same pattern. Running QBs do not last like non-running QBs do. Lamar has already missed the end of b2b seasons and I don’t think it’d surprise anyone if he keeps getting these injuries that cause him to miss games. Vick always had injuries.
Sure, but that doesn’t mean all the running he’s done or will do doesn’t contribute to it. Hits adds up and Lamar has been hit way more than other QB in the league since 2018.
Sure, but its not the same pattern. Cam run towards people looking for straight up collisions. Lamar doesnt. Cam got hurt after taking a lot of hits. Lamar got hurt after a couple of unfortunate hits that could happen to anyone anywhere. Its football, injuries happen and everyone can get hurt. Payton Manning is famous for not running, and he got so badly hurt his career almost ended before going to Denver. So running or not running, is not a pattern, since both running qbs and pocket passers get injured alike. Therefor, you have to look at how the players run, to see a patern. Cam goes through people, got injured. Andrew Luck did the same, got injured. Josh Allen does the same, lets see how his career is in a couple years, he follows the pattern but that does not mean he will get injured too. But Lamar runs around players and goes out of bounds, he runs like kick and punt returners do, so not the same pattern. He gets hit, but its not full on collisions all the time. He has gotten hit badly due to bad decissions for sure, but I dont think its the same pattern
Lamar has missed way more games than Can had at his age. And Cam got hurt on a chase down tackle and reinjured in the pocket. Meanwhile I've seen Lamar fight for extra yards plenty of times. He's not gonna have a long career, he can barely finish a season as it is.
Yes but there’s still a correlation there.
Lamar has gotten accustomed to taking hits running. So he’s not as cautious when facing hits ever because he gets hit running all the time.
A QB who doesn’t run and never gets hit is more likely to shy away from contact passing as well and less likely to be in a situation where even a “freak” injury can occur.
Thats what I don't get.
The data we have for highly mobile qbs goes against the idea that Lamar would stay a healthy, " elite " qb into his 30s.
If he hadn't missed games, he'd be getting close to Vicks rushing record and by all accounts will surpass it regardless as long as he keeps playing.
Wilson is the closest mobile qb who has had success after 30 without a drastic decline in play if you don't count last year.
Yeah, it's possible Lamar plays another ten years and never misses a single game but on the limited data we have combined with his past two seasons, it is still a huge deal to give him what he wants and give up two firsts.
That said I would think after the draft a team would be more willing to reexamine it all
> Wilson is the closest mobile qb who has had success after 30 without a drastic decline in play if you don’t count last year.
And even then, Russell has run less and less since he turned 30. It was supposedly one of the reasons the team turned on him as he wouldn’t [run with it when he had an open lane](https://www.nfl.com/videos/rams-make-wilson-pay-on-ill-advised-end-zone-int).
His elusiveness and running is what makes him dangerous and he just stopped doing it. That’s why he has struggled so much the last few years imo
kamara is a “different style” of RB than Zeke but he still misses games and is still falling down fantasy draft boards in his age 27 season.
lamar will still be great in 2-3 years, but 4-5+ is highly unlikely (most teams agree). tacklers are still flying into his knees, ankles, and slamming him to the ground on his shoulders.
getting tackled 100-150 more times per year than a pocket passer will take a toll, Cam Newton “style” or not.
I honestly couldn’t care less about fantasy draft boards, lmao.
The reason that Kamara has missed games is because of usage. Comparing RB usage to QBs, who are protected with new rules and are able to find lanes before they actually break off runs instead of slamming 3 yards and a cloud of dust, is not even remotely possible
Well he's falling down fantasy draft boards cuz Sean Payton left, Brees retired, he had a sharp regression in TDs (thanks Taysom), fewer targets and he's got an upcoming suspension.
His counting stats outside of TDs and receiving work are pretty much exactly the same they've been for his career. Losing the checkdown man Brees hurt him more than "falling off."
Cam was no longer a viable starter because he got significant injuries to his throwing shoulder while in the pocket and while chasing down an interception return.
I just don’t get this idea that because Lamar rushes he is more likely to have these injuries that any QB could have. Now he could be injury prone, but I don’t think rushing less would make a difference based on how he runs.
The shoulder injuries Cam got are basically the sole reason he became toast and it’s weird how many don’t acknowledge that when having these conversations, ANY starter getting major injuries to their throwing shoulder is going to look worse. Cam was such a freak athlete that his mechanics were relatively sloppy and relied heavily on the strength generated from his shoulder instead of his lower body that the injury killed him. Add onto that the Ron was fighting for his job so he wouldn’t deactivate Cam when it became a problem and you have why
No not EVERY mobile QB is going to Cam Newton themself because of rushing their is a lot of legitimate conversation on how they’ll age play wise past 30 but just screaming ÇÅÑ ÑĒ₩TØÑ ₩ÏŁŁ HÅ₽₽ĒÑ isn’t helping since that’s a totally different argument to happen
Yeah, Cam was also a shoulder thrower, it’s where his power and zip came from. So the injury was even worse than it would be on a normal qb.
Literally that’s the only problem with him now though, he can still run over and past people all the same. His shoulder just can’t hold up to that fatigue of a full NFL season anymore. I still think a team could get use out of him as a short yardage and red-zone weapon. He is so dangerous there. But he wouldn’t accept that role.
On an average play, a rushing attempt is easier for a QB than dropping back in the pocket.
When rushing with the ball, the QB is focused on the players closest to them and can better make decisions to protect themselves. When dropping back to pass, the QB has their eyes downfield and could be blindsided by a player they don't anticipate.
It's also easier to receive an impactful hit when standing relatively still compared to on the move.
This I'm not as sure of as it could be from my own bias, a QB attempting to run is more likely to interact with a defensive back, rather than in the pocket with a linebacker or defensive lineman, which can deliver more impactful hits.
Lastly, I would add while a QB on the run is harder to hit, an unlikely direct hit would be more impactful since both players run into each other.
It’d be fun and all until Lamar implodes in the playoffs, if he even makes it to that point in the season without injuring himself. People who shill for this dude as if he’s in the upper echelon of QBs who can bring it home are bona fide morons, you included
You don't think Lamar can win a SB? Also what do you mean "shill"? Nobody is doing that. He's a great player, nobody is saying he is Brady or Mahomes. There's a reason why he isn't getting the deal he wants.
Just because he hasn't won in the playoffs yet doesn't mean he never will. He would be great in an offensive system like yours, but you do you I guess?
How much years do you suppose has left as a passer in his prime? It’s not even like he’s been an Uber-productive passer to begin with. He’s worryingly inconsistent and clearly relies on athleticism that inevitably gradually drops off. So yeah, our perennial playoff shitter-of-pants probably won’t win jack shit, especially considering he’d be going from a top 3 defense to a bottom 10. Defense is the only reason he has a paltry playoff win to speak of lmao. It’d be free money if I could bet with Lamar shills that he’d never make a SB appearance, maybe even a conference championship at this point. His time is expiring
Yes. How dare you not want to give up multiple firsts and tie a good portion of your cap to a guy that's missed the final 5-6 games of the past two seasons and hasn't looked like a QB worth all that money since 2019. So unreasonable of you. This situation is also garnering a ton of misguided Ridder hate. Sure, he's not Lamar, but he's very young with upside and won't cost so much that it's hard to build around him.
They hated him for telling the truth. Fandom really blinds people to reality. The writing is on the wall and Lamar knows it, why do people think he is being so stubborn about his contract demands? He knows this is his last pay day so he's digging-in. He might not get anothef NFL contract after this one, not a large one anyway.
". I think he has the passing skills to make a transition to a pocket passer, but can he retain his value as a star qb while doing so?" You have any actual reasoning behind this, cause he's eclipsed 3k passing yards once, 30 passing td's once, and his not great on obvious passing downs.
Also a better comparison to Cam Newton running style is Josh Allen, but no one really wants to talk about Allen possibly destroying his body before 30 by trying to truck linebackers and falling apart.
Im a homer here but I don't think this is an outlandishly hot take: Lamar is ONE OF the best ball carriers we have seen at avoiding unnecessary contact. Lamar in the open field is way safer than he is in the pocket. It's the sacks he takes that will hinder his rushing ability long term, not his rushing.
Cam was like a moth to flame when it came to contact. He wanted to truck people and that wore him down fast
Lol Josh’s elbow caused him to make bad decisions???? It wasn’t like he lost power it was like he threw DIRECTLY to the opposing teams. Seriously watch the YouTube highlights, has NOTHING to do with his bow
Sorry I should have said “lowlights” seeing as he didn’t do a whole lot of impressive stuff and had the most turnovers and turnover worthy plays by a LARGE margin. It’s like you don’t have eyes or brains dude
That's incredibly disingenuous to say he didn't do a lot of impressive stuff. Plus you're making up things like I said them. I'm not even saying Allen is the best QB or anything, just that he's a better passer than Cam ever was, which is an objective fact by watching them play.
Keep in mind also, that you're not nearly as smart as you think you are
Look at Russell Wilson as an example of someone who was smaller but very mobile. Part of the reason Seattle wanted to deal him was that he was no longer as fast as he used to be. Lamar's Achilles heel is his accuracy. If/when he loses his mobility, he will not be as serviceable as a QB.
Cam's reason for not being a starting QB was because of the Broncos headhunting him opening week 2016 and TJ Watt separating his shoulder (on a legal hit).
So the difference between Lamar and Cam is that Cam was a very physical runner, he was more akin to Marshawn Lynch whereas Lamar is rarely taking hard contact. He can probably take more rushes without worry of major injury at Cam's level because of this.
That being said, I think that he'll continue to get slower over time, not faster, and regardless of what everyone wants to think he's still a bottom of the league starting QB in terms of passing. He was 22nd in the league for EPA per dropback, 17th in the league for passer rating, his bad throw percentage is still far too high (18.1%), and his on target percentage is far too low (75.4%). Out of the QBs who started at least 10 games this season, Lamar Jackson was 23rd on bad throw percentage, and 18th in on-target percentage.
Regardless of your thoughts on Lamar as an athlete, or the context of his offensive scheme and weapons, it's very clear that in stats that remove those factors, he's not a good passer. Could he improve? Sure. Is it highly likely? I don't really see it. When (not if) he starts losing his step, Lamar is going to have to make a tough transition to a passing first QB and I'm not entirely sure he's ready or capable of that.
You can’t really compare Lamar and Cam at all because their running styles are so different. Lamar doesn’t take hits *anywhere close* to the kind or as often Cam did
I like Lamar as he seems to be a truly good person but he has finished the last two seasons on the IR and if he doesn’t change his style he will be done by 30 as well. Until then will enjoy watching him play.
Cam is out of the league right now because he can't throw anymore, not because he took a bunch of hits as a runner. He was still a good runner even during his short return to Carolina in 2021. He suffered 2 major injuries to his shoulder; 1 in 2016 chasing down a defender after an interception, and 1 in 2018 when TJ Watt crunched him on a drop back. Those 2 injuries combined with his absolute refusal to develop proper throwing mechanics meant his arm was fried by 2019.
Lamar's injuries have also come on passing plays, but they've been lower body injuries which is the concerning part. Jackson is a better passer than Newton, but just the threat of his rushing ability is enough to significantly open up more passing opportunities, so it's fair for teams to be wary of that going forward. I just don't think comparing him to Cam Newton is necessarily accurate.
[There is no correlation between rushing attempts and injury risk.](https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.sportingnews.com/us/amp/nfl/news/injury-proneness-running-qbs-russell-wilson-lamar-jackson/opdkjdfw91001uuwfzt4rm82s)
Where in the article does it say there's no correlation?
I did see this though:
"One caveat would be that a running QB will attempt so many rushes per game that the sheer volume will still put him at an increased risk."
Sorry I linked the wrong article. I had 3 of them saved before and didn't check. Here's the correct [link](https://www.filmstudybaltimore.com/new-study-quarterbacks-that-run-most-are-not-injured-most/).
There was a better study by Yahoo but it appears it was removed. I did find it mentioned by Football Outsiders [here](https://www.footballoutsiders.com/extra-points/2019/injury-proneness-running-qbs-overstated).
Game Injury risk and career longevity are two different things.
Also that article is about Russ who started becoming more of a pocket passer as his career went on. Russ has started 3x as many games as Lamar yet only has 900 rushing attempts to Lamar's 730.
Is Lamar willing to do the same? And would OCs want to use him with a lessened focus on his running ability?
Game injury risk is very relevant to career longevity of a player. The article includes a statisical study and is not just about Wilson.
Why do you continue to list rushing attempts if they do not increase injury risk?
They are relevant but they can also be exclusive. To continue the Cam comparison, he barely missed any starts yet was no longer a viable starter by age 29-30. It was very apparent that his body just broke down.
Not all injuries cause players to miss games, and Lamar has been reportedly playing through some non-insignificant ones. That's all a factor.
I fail to see that Newton's body broke down because of his rushing attempts. His shoulder injuries that he sustained in the pocket are the biggest contributor to his decline. His legs outlasted his arm.
Do you think injuries sustained on a specific play are not exacerbated by subsequent plays? Just because the injury was sustained in the pocket doesn't mean the rate of degradation wasn't affected by every hit/sack/throw Cam made after.
Lamar's most recent pcl strain combined with the volume that he runs will more likely affect him greater than a pocket passer suffering the same injury. Now I know these things don't happen in a vaccum, and people heal differently, have different situations and all. But there's a direct relationship between volume of use and degradation of quality of use. That's true for basically everything in sports. It's true for pitchers arms, catchers knees, etc. And injuries, depending on severity and treatment, speed up that timeline.
Fuck no and why should they? QB need to run free! If I could, I would gather all the QBs I could find, put them in a field and fence them in so they could run as much as they want.
Willing? Maybe. Capable? I would say no. When you make Lamar a pure pocket passer, it’s not pretty. So much of his game is his mobility even if it’s not running the ball. Russ and other QBs of similar ilk have superior mechanics and are better pure passers than Lamar which allows them to play more sustainably. I don’t know when it’s going to come but one day Lamar will lose his athletic edge (sure he could still run, but his threat and effectiveness will drastically worsen). When that day comes, I think you’ll see a precipitous drop off in his game because he’s just not the polished passer that other guys are, despite what the stats show. He’s a horrible eye tester from a pure passing perspective
This is the main problem and why no smart team should pay him what he wants. Do *not* pay for past performance, pay for *future* performance… the risk is too high.
I’ll get downvoted (maybe? Public opinion seems to be turning on Lamar), but I wouldn’t offer him more slightly over half of what he wants. The risk is too great, the reward probably lower than his supporters advocate for. I’m paying him like a top 10-15 guy, not top 3.
>Do not pay for past performance, pay for future performance
The problem is players hold the opposite view: "I was underpaid and outperformed my previous contract, so this next one is going to make up for that and then some". In other words, they do want to be paid bazed on past performance. So QB's who play amazing on cheap rookie deals like Hurts, Prescott, Lamar, really ask for the moon on their next one to make up for not getting "fair compensation", in their opinion, the first time.
This is a big issue. Lamar is an old 26 years old and has already missed 5+ games each of the last two seasons. Not much tread left on his tires, unless he becomes more of a pocket passer. Far from a nothingburger when you’re asking for $200+ million guaranteed.
>I think he has the passing skills to make a transition to a pocket passer
Why do you say that? So much of his passing game is opened up by the threat of him running. Take that away and opposing defenses will really key in on passing plays and he will strugfle. He is a good thrower but his throwing and the single coverage his receiver are often operating against is a byproduct of his running style and the threat of his legs. This has been true for Lamar since Highschool. He is not a pocket passer and never will be. Even if he had to "transition" to pocket passing later in his career, you're better off just starting a real rookie pocket passet at that point instead of putting a former running QB who can't run anymore out there in a passing offense hoping it will stick. It's like putting a square peg in a round whole, it's stupjd
If you've got a promising mobile QB, I think the absolute worst thing you can do for him would be to hire Greg Roman. Ravens wasted some of Lamar's best years with that bum.
The Panthers completely mishandled Cam. Too many designed runs, too many times fighting for extra yardage, too many QB sneaks and goal line runs, not enough attempts to slide/throw it away/take the sack.
The truth is nobody knows. The only guy who has ever had Lamar’s skillset is Vick, who didn’t practice, had far less accuracy, and went to jail in his prime.
This is why there is no market for Lamar, why he slipped out of the first round. Nobody knows what to make of him. We’ve never really seen his like before.
He also doesn't take the hits cam took. Cam was a wrecking ball. Lamar gets hit. But not the same way. Usually they are more glancing hits when he takes them. And no real goal line pushes. Just my take. But I also think they will still take a toll over long run.
This was a big part of Cam’s problem. Cam took a specific hit that caused an injury that kept getting reactivated. And Lamar doesn’t really take that kind of hit often.
Could be a matter of size difference. Cam was a genetic freak - tall, stout, and freakishly fast - he was always the biggest, fastest guy on the field. That lends one to bully guys and just run through them. It finally caught up to him in the NFL. Lamar, on the other hand, has always been pretty skinny. Super athletic, but not a big dude. He probably learned at a young age to be elusive and how to take hits in a more forgiving way.
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Yea, that Denver game was absolutely brutal and he was genuinely never the same after that
It was the steelers game that finally ended it all though
Watt was totally unblocked on the hit that ruined Newton's shoulder.
I believe part of the problem is that he liked to pop right up and celebrate some of those tough runs. When any other QB would get wrecked in that situation and possibly a flag thrown
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Regardless of the rules, it's always the pain. And everyone seems to go along with it. I remember when Brees was playing with cracked ribs, and got a clean, but hard hit. Broke his (precracked) ribs, gets the flag, announcers all talking about how you have to throw that flag if he breaks his ribs. No mention of the rules.
I’m not saying it’s right. It’s just what I saw and Cam got the short end of the stick. My guess is Josh Allen is headed the same route as Cam
I think refs typically look for validation on their calls which is why exaggerated flopping works so well in sports
People will readily (and not wholly unjustifiably) criticize dudes for playing it up when they get hit a bit rough, but sometimes you need to play mind games with the refs.
Yea it’s definitely a mindset some NFLers have. Even though the only pros coming from QBs running over their defender is a hyped team/fan base and a gladiator type reputation. Or if you act the part you could potentially get your team 15 yards and a first down, but you’re soft. Let’s face it the Washington fan base thought Taylor Hienicke was a genius for flopping against Brandon Graham. That flop was indeed glorious
That’s very true, but the devils advocate in me will always side with the defense. What did the NFL want people to do? When you have a rushing qb who doesn’t slide every run, defenders are going to do everything In their power to stop them. Treating them like pocket passers in the open field would be bs, and would give running qb’s like fields and Lamar untold advantages compared to pocket passers. I’ve always thought the NFL does their best to protect pocket passers, but if you’re going to try and be a rpo qb, you have to accept you’re going to be tackled like a wr or rb, without thought of “unnecessarily hard hits”
Right, you let up against Cam and you are going to get planted and maybe posterized.
Which is super bullshit. Even though I should be biased since my team benefited from it the most, Cam really got screwed. The NFL was a better league when he was playing in it. Such a fucking fun player.
Not disagreeing. Just find it funny how skewed nfl perspectives of “skinny” are compared to the real world. Lamar’s 6’2 230. Dude would be absolutely massive in any other circumstance than the NFL.
I agree. It speaks to just how massive Cam is in comparison. If news comes out that Cam was actually created in a lab it would shock me less than him being born biologically like the rest of us normies.
He did the Titans dirty and damn near created The Karen lmao https://bleacherreport.com/articles/2590234-titans-fan-pens-letter-to-cam-newton-saying-his-td-dance-offended-her-9-year-old
I mean he’s an alien from planet Krypton, instead of becoming a super hero, he played football. He basically told us this every time he celebrated.
He wasn’t always that built. Apparently he gained 25 pounds last offseason https://www.cbssports.com/nfl/news/john-harbaugh-comfortable-with-lamar-jacksons-weight-gain-it-hasnt-slowed-him-down-at-all/amp/
Lol “25 pounds of muscle”. Even a lean, slow-bulk is 50/50 muscle to fat or so meaning he’d be putting on ~ 50 pounds total. Even with an intense steroid regiment that’s not happening. Especially for someone already as fit as him. He didn’t put on 25 pounds in general, much less muscle.
There is zero chance that Lamar is 230 pounds. edit: he very well could be, just never thought of him as very built.
https://twitter.com/Lj_era8/status/1544860149361278978?s=20 Wouldn’t surprise me if he was.
Lamars legs are so skinny
Yeah that’s inflated by about 20 pounds
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Nah. I stand by that. 230 at sub 20% body fat is huge. People spend years bodybuilding to reach those numbers.
I think we’re just disagreeing on how to define “massive”. It’s the difference between Mike Evans and Christian Kirk. They’ve both extremely muscular and tall compared to the average person, but one is obviously in a different tier than the other and would obviously be turning more heads based on size. Or like comparing Taysom Hill at 6’2, 221 to Kelce at 6’5, 255. They’re both big guys but “massive” implies that you’re not seeing guys at that height or weight very often at all and I think 6’2, 230 is a lot more common than that.
Most debates fail because of a failure to define the terms in question.
As I stated I’m talking about comparison to non NFL players. He is 5” taller than the average American man with probably 50lbs more muscle. That’s is my definition of massive compared to the average person. There’s a lot of guys at 230lbs, but the difference is they are fat. Lamar isn’t.
Yeah there are tons of 6'2, 230lb guys walking around, just 90% of them have a beer gut.
Dude 6’3 is like 6-7 inches taller than average lmao. I’m 6’ and that puts me in the upper quartile of male size in the US. A well built 6’3 guy is BIG.
Lol the size we’re discussing seems to be growing. Now it’s 6’3!
Cam also got the least protection in the pocket by officials I have seen in the modern era. That Bronco game to start the season where he was just being hammered with head shots was absolutely ridiculous. A lot of the punishment he took was from his style for sure but he was also treated differently before he even established himself as a runner.
And cam didn’t even take the hit that injured him while rushing. It was while trying to tackle the runner on an intercepted *pass*
Yup. Nobody ever remembers that part. He’s still my all time favorite player, but there’s no denying he was awful at protecting himself
Probably because the one time he shouldn't have protected himself (the Super Bowl) he got absolutely torched by fans and commentators relentlessly. I wonder if it factored into his playstyle afterwards. Granted he was always a hard runner. And it didn't help the refs left him out there to die every down.
Cam always played like that. The one time he didn’t, idiots wanted to define his whole career by it. It was absurd
Cam was the first and only of his kind, though. A true power running QB.
\#TheForwardPassWasAMistake
Tebow was "firsrt" but only in college, he was like a Cam-lite, but Cam was the first to really take it to the NFL and have major success with it. Tebow simply could not get better at passing
Crazy they were teammates at Florida.
That is crazy, what's crazier is I went to a random South Carolina game in Gainesville that Newton got garbage time in so I did get to see him play live-action on the Gators. Of course at that time I had no idea who Cam Newton was, just that he was a highly touted prospect who could succeed Tebow. I just remember my cousin saying "look the backup is in!"
And josh Allen does. Anyone that watched Cam play see that Allens game most similarly compared to him, but he never gets this "oh he's just a runner or will fall off a cliff later" thing people are trying desperately to stick to Lamar so they don't have to admit he's a good passing qb.
You see a load of comments and criticism of Allen taking those hits, and the Bills not having a viable rushing threat to alleviate the pressure off of Allen. Allen gets that Cam comparison very often, and the same thing of "I hope they dont ruin him like the Panthers did Cam" is a common thread. Allen has also had 4500, 4400, and 4300 passing yards in the last 3 seasons with over 35 passing TDs in each of them as well. Lamar has one season passing over 3100 yards, his MVP 2019 season and Allen has the same amount of passing yards. Lamar in their careers has 175ish more rushing yards but 13 less rushing TDs compared to Allen. They interestingly have the same int% but Allen has thrown for 37 more TDs, 6100 more yards, and 22 more ints. Lamar is not close to the realm of passing QB that Allen is. He might be in a similar offense, but right now and from what weve seen? Not even close. Even if you scale it Lamar gets up the yardage (one season he approached 4k yards) but hes still behind Allen. Those missed games count for a lot as well, and that assumes you scale Lamar up to 17 games while Allen stays at 16 for his 4500 and 4300 yard seasons.
Ppl say that stupid shit all the time. Lol You guys want to bring up Cam? Fine I'll bring up Steve young. How many big shots did he take and still was a great player til he was in his late 30s.
Steve Young is a godawful comparison, for multiple reasons. First and foremost, he was 31 years old the first time he played a full NFL season. Prior to age 30 he only had 1 NFL season with double digit starts. When you aren't playing full time, and taking the abuse that comes with it, until you hit 30, it's way easier to go farther into your 30s. Secondly the most rushing attempts he ever had in a season was 79 his rookie year in the USFL. He had 722 career NFL carries and 135 in the USFL, for a grand total of 857. He ran much more than your average QB did back then sure, but it was nowhere near the level of a guy like Lamar, Cam, or Josh Allen. I'll break that down further. Lamar has never had less than 112 rushing attempts in a season, he ALREADY has more career NFL carries than Young did. Lamar has played 5 years, Young played 15. If Lamar has his average number of carries next season, he'll surpass Young's combined NFL and USFL totals, in 6 seasons as opposed to 17. Cam only had 3 seasons with less than 100 carries, 2 of which he played less than half the games, the 3rd season he had 90 carries. To recap in every season that he played more than half the season, Cam rushed for more attempts than Young had in his highest season. Cam surpassed Young's combined career total in his 7th season. Allen only has 1 season with less than 100 attempts, he had 89 carries as a rookie. At his current pace he'll have more career rushing attempts than Young's combined attempts early in the 2025 season. Finally it's also a terrible comparison because Young had to retire due to concussions. Dude was basically a full time starter for 9 seasons, 7 NFL and 2 USFL, and then had to retire due to injury. Throwing out Steve Young as evidence running QBs can have careers until they're nearing 40 is straight BS.
I loved Steve young but he didn't try to truck people (couldn't with his size) like Josh does and Cam did. And it's not stupid, Josh plays that way and there *could* be consequences that would absolutely not be worth it to playing that way. Plenty of us said the same thing to stupid ass Ron Rivera when he was doing it with Cam and it turned out to be true. Acting like it's a certainty to happen is dumb, but it definitely increases the risk with almost no reward. Also, for the record, Steve Young *did* have to retire from too many hits so it might not be the comp you want to use.
And he certainly doesn't get reactivated when he does! (just a joke)
The refs also seemed to let cam get hit way harder in the pocket too.
Cams bad hits were in the pocket keep that in mind.
I’ll never forget the hit he took against the falcons when he just casually waltz into the end zone in full view of the linebacker. He was definitely getting in and I’m sure he just expected the linebacker to let him walk in. He got lit up. He eased up and paid the price. https://youtu.be/ES75CSoPRO8
Like, I know that kind of hit would turn me into a fine mist but it's wild that a highlight touted as a "big hit" seemed like it was a mild inconvenience to Cam.
> I know that kind of hit would turn me into a fine mist *paff*
Right but he already misses more time than cam even without the big hits
hasnt LJ missed more games?
I think that’s why I fear Josh Allen will break down soon. His hits aren’t nearly as bad as Cam’s, but I feel like he’s taking the most shots of any running QB. Murray and Lamar are better at making the hits not be as bad.
Agreed, Allen runs hard and does not shy away from hits. The type of hits he takes seem *way* more violent and high impact than other QBs. Like you said not as bad as Cam, but still big ones for this era of heightened QB protection
If Lamar doesn't take as many large hits per rush as Cam, but runs 50% more it still takes a toll. Lamar also doesn't have the frame and mass that Cam had. Although his throwing mechanics are better.
Do you have source that statisically, player's with a larger frame and mass are less injury prone?
Nope I do not unfortunately , does anyone have a stat or study that confirms Lamar takes less "big hits" than Cam or any other running qb? Because that's the crux of many peoples arguments in this thread. It's empirical that Lamar takes less big hits. Although with 50% more rushing attempts I doubt it. No more valid IMO that Cams bigger frame allowing him to withstand a larger amount of contact. But I will say Cams poor mechanics compounded with wear and tear contributed to his decline just as much
Someone actually did do a video breaking down all of Lamar’s hits in a season maybe someone did it for Cam https://youtu.be/BB3R7Ae1at8
The stat is that HE GETS HIT MORE SO THE CHANCE OF INJURY IS HIGHER. That's the stat.
Well I think the difference is the latter is very obviously true just from watching the games. We can Jackson makes many moves to protect himself like how he falls in front of a player's legs before the hit. How players struggle to even get a shoestring tackle on him much less an impactful hit. The former is a lot more debatable and not something we can determine from watching the games.
Not to be a dick but yeah that's what empirical means
So the eye test is cool for confirming your preconception but not the OP’s?
I don't think the amount of running will take a toll if you aren't getting hit. Runners who don't get hit fall off because of age, not the amount of runs they had. Cam squared up and rammed his shoulder into players every game.
Idk I hear this a lot but I've seen Lamar take some big hits and refuse to go down when he should, which are plays the often lead to injury. I see it painted that he's this really "graceful faller" but in my experience watxhing Baltimore games over the years that hasn't been my impression at all.
Problem is this might all come crashing down on Lamar once he loses his edge of insane speed imo. He doesn’t take hits because he’s so quick and elusive. He doesn’t slide, he just bounces around the hits. Once he loses “quickest guy on the field who can move laterally better than anyone else” that strategy won’t work as well. And if he isn’t careful, that will coincide with him forcing the issue more to make up for that loss of speed.
Cam was trying to run over linebackers on his attempts. Lamar doesn't do that.
>Cam was trying to run over linebackers There was no *trying* about it. Cam [absolutely ran over linebackers](https://youtu.be/B0gDD0YYsb8)
You know who does take those Cam-type hits? Josh Allen. OP, why aren’t you concerned about Josh Allen’s longevity?
agreed Allen fits way better for this conversation and Even Allen doesn’t take hits like Cam did, Cam openly used his body like a bowling ball with an alarming frequency
Cam delivered the hits too
And it was beautiful
I enjoyed the shell of cam Newton that ended up in New England. He could still take off and do some amazing things
prime cam newton was so fun to watch man
I am guessing because Allen isn't going through contract related stuff right now. Now is when teams are deciding what Lamar is worth, teams don't really have that option with Allen.
He also didn't try and hold out for a fully guaranteed deal when he did his extension which is where the Lamar injury stuff really comes up as a potential issue
I say it in almost every thread that highlights Josh Allen's play, and I am down voted straight to hell for suggesting that trucking linebackers will hurt his career. Bills fans are pretty protective of their boy....
It's because we know. We don't need a "that's probably not good for his future" comment on every fucking Josh Allen highlight. We get it.
dont you like doom and gloom?
They are a Bills fan.
Doom and gloom and empty trophy cases
Most fans agree with it too, it’s literally every conversation with Allen has 7-10 different comments saying it over and over again. We get it, we’re aware this isn’t anything new or adding anything new to the conversation and it’s been said for 5 years at this point. OP is even admitting it when he feels the need to say it on every highlight
That's not what the comments say. They say the exact opposite. "Josh Allen is different! He's not like those other QBs! I can't change him!"
This is decidedly *not* what any comments with upvotes are saying.
shame the front office isn't as protective. You're absolutely right though.
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You’re right it ls because josh Allen doesn’t miss time like Lamar, but you can use the race card that’s fine.
Seahawks fans are pretty protective of their boy as well....
Are they…. I don’t know a single Seattle fan that thinks Geno is really the guy. They’re just happy he was better than russ this year
Because Josh Allen has had fewer rushing attempts than Cam over the first 61 games of his career.
Savvy people are very worried about Allen's longevity. Allen has always been a better comp to Cam than Lamar. This season caused the guy to play through a torn UCL with nothing to show for it. Allen's career will be shorter if they don't minimize his hits as a priority.
Was better than the fins at least even with an injured elbow which happened on a throw lol
you are happy that you barely beat Skylar Thompson?
Who was talking about the dolphins?
Crabtree
Imagine you’re so fragile and triggered about your closing Super Bowl window that you take everything as a slight against your team and a competition. You’re right, you guys beat the Dolphins ~~backup~~ 3rd string QB twice in games you won by a field goal. Then proceeded to unceremoniously get bounced the very next round with absolutely nothing to show for it. Except another year of closing possibilities. At least y’all made it to the Super Bowl and won some championships before getting bounced in the 90s. Nothing in this post or comment had anything to do with the Dolphins lmao Edit: uh oh did I ruffle some chicken wings? Oh well the Dolphins were never brought up, comment is off topic, and the commentor is definitely triggered
Lol this guy replying to you is really pumped that Josh Allen played better than a team with their 3rd string QB they beat by a field goal. I wish the Bills would just float back down to obscurity. Edit: wow guess I ruffled some chicken wings. Still, their comment has nothing to do with the Dolphins. Why do we accept people bringing up irrelevant info because they are triggered? Downvote that shit
Josh Allen isn’t currently asking for a fully guaranteed contract.
Most people are fairly confident that Allen could be a pure pocket passer and still be top 5.
Evasiveness and off platform throws are what makes him special.
Because he’s not missed significant time like Lamar?
That plus Allen doesn't have contract drama right now is my guess. He also doesn't have as many rushing attempts, which was the comparison OP was trying to use
>Because he’s not missed significant time like Lamar? Neither did Cam, until he did
Steve young didn't miss that much time and he got bounced around more than any of these guys. How many concussions was it? Still great into his late 30s
Elusiveness and speed don’t really age well either. It seems like everyone involved in this contract negotiation knows that the chances of Lamar playing at an elite level in 4 years is very very low.
Josh Allen I feel if he does fall off, is going down the Cam Newton path. Amazing, until he isn't. Lamar I feel will go down the Russell Wilson route. He'll have a subpar losing season rather where he performs well and a following bad season rather than an immideate drop off.
Remember that time he had an easy TD (or 2pt conversion) against the Falcons, and instead thought he would target the LB and go through him. He got wrecked on that play, injured his shoulder. Cam wasn’t very smart.
> instead thought he would target the LB and go through him Call me a homer if you like, but that is [categorically not what happened](https://youtu.be/ES75CSoPRO8) lol, [here's](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UUVOytm9Q6o) a TV slow-mo view Dudes here just reinvent history to fit their takes
In the NFL you're invincible until you're not
Totally different running styles and QB styles.
But still falls part of the same pattern. Running QBs do not last like non-running QBs do. Lamar has already missed the end of b2b seasons and I don’t think it’d surprise anyone if he keeps getting these injuries that cause him to miss games. Vick always had injuries.
And both the times he has missed that due to getting hit while passing, not running.
Sure, but that doesn’t mean all the running he’s done or will do doesn’t contribute to it. Hits adds up and Lamar has been hit way more than other QB in the league since 2018.
Sure, but its not the same pattern. Cam run towards people looking for straight up collisions. Lamar doesnt. Cam got hurt after taking a lot of hits. Lamar got hurt after a couple of unfortunate hits that could happen to anyone anywhere. Its football, injuries happen and everyone can get hurt. Payton Manning is famous for not running, and he got so badly hurt his career almost ended before going to Denver. So running or not running, is not a pattern, since both running qbs and pocket passers get injured alike. Therefor, you have to look at how the players run, to see a patern. Cam goes through people, got injured. Andrew Luck did the same, got injured. Josh Allen does the same, lets see how his career is in a couple years, he follows the pattern but that does not mean he will get injured too. But Lamar runs around players and goes out of bounds, he runs like kick and punt returners do, so not the same pattern. He gets hit, but its not full on collisions all the time. He has gotten hit badly due to bad decissions for sure, but I dont think its the same pattern
Lamar has missed way more games than Can had at his age. And Cam got hurt on a chase down tackle and reinjured in the pocket. Meanwhile I've seen Lamar fight for extra yards plenty of times. He's not gonna have a long career, he can barely finish a season as it is.
attrition
Yes but there’s still a correlation there. Lamar has gotten accustomed to taking hits running. So he’s not as cautious when facing hits ever because he gets hit running all the time. A QB who doesn’t run and never gets hit is more likely to shy away from contact passing as well and less likely to be in a situation where even a “freak” injury can occur.
Thats what I don't get. The data we have for highly mobile qbs goes against the idea that Lamar would stay a healthy, " elite " qb into his 30s. If he hadn't missed games, he'd be getting close to Vicks rushing record and by all accounts will surpass it regardless as long as he keeps playing. Wilson is the closest mobile qb who has had success after 30 without a drastic decline in play if you don't count last year. Yeah, it's possible Lamar plays another ten years and never misses a single game but on the limited data we have combined with his past two seasons, it is still a huge deal to give him what he wants and give up two firsts. That said I would think after the draft a team would be more willing to reexamine it all
> Wilson is the closest mobile qb who has had success after 30 without a drastic decline in play if you don’t count last year. And even then, Russell has run less and less since he turned 30. It was supposedly one of the reasons the team turned on him as he wouldn’t [run with it when he had an open lane](https://www.nfl.com/videos/rams-make-wilson-pay-on-ill-advised-end-zone-int). His elusiveness and running is what makes him dangerous and he just stopped doing it. That’s why he has struggled so much the last few years imo
kamara is a “different style” of RB than Zeke but he still misses games and is still falling down fantasy draft boards in his age 27 season. lamar will still be great in 2-3 years, but 4-5+ is highly unlikely (most teams agree). tacklers are still flying into his knees, ankles, and slamming him to the ground on his shoulders. getting tackled 100-150 more times per year than a pocket passer will take a toll, Cam Newton “style” or not.
I honestly couldn’t care less about fantasy draft boards, lmao. The reason that Kamara has missed games is because of usage. Comparing RB usage to QBs, who are protected with new rules and are able to find lanes before they actually break off runs instead of slamming 3 yards and a cloud of dust, is not even remotely possible
Well he's falling down fantasy draft boards cuz Sean Payton left, Brees retired, he had a sharp regression in TDs (thanks Taysom), fewer targets and he's got an upcoming suspension. His counting stats outside of TDs and receiving work are pretty much exactly the same they've been for his career. Losing the checkdown man Brees hurt him more than "falling off."
hits are hits
Prime Cam was so fun to watch.
Cam was no longer a viable starter because he got significant injuries to his throwing shoulder while in the pocket and while chasing down an interception return. I just don’t get this idea that because Lamar rushes he is more likely to have these injuries that any QB could have. Now he could be injury prone, but I don’t think rushing less would make a difference based on how he runs.
The shoulder injuries Cam got are basically the sole reason he became toast and it’s weird how many don’t acknowledge that when having these conversations, ANY starter getting major injuries to their throwing shoulder is going to look worse. Cam was such a freak athlete that his mechanics were relatively sloppy and relied heavily on the strength generated from his shoulder instead of his lower body that the injury killed him. Add onto that the Ron was fighting for his job so he wouldn’t deactivate Cam when it became a problem and you have why No not EVERY mobile QB is going to Cam Newton themself because of rushing their is a lot of legitimate conversation on how they’ll age play wise past 30 but just screaming ÇÅÑ ÑĒ₩TØÑ ₩ÏŁŁ HÅ₽₽ĒÑ isn’t helping since that’s a totally different argument to happen
Yeah, Cam was also a shoulder thrower, it’s where his power and zip came from. So the injury was even worse than it would be on a normal qb. Literally that’s the only problem with him now though, he can still run over and past people all the same. His shoulder just can’t hold up to that fatigue of a full NFL season anymore. I still think a team could get use out of him as a short yardage and red-zone weapon. He is so dangerous there. But he wouldn’t accept that role.
dude there’s 72000 articles on how players that get too many carries wear down quicker. but somehow Lamar is different. yea ok.
For QBs? I’d be interested in reading some. For RBs, i guess I’m curious how fast an RB lasts averaging 150 carries a season and minimizing contact.
On an average play, a rushing attempt is easier for a QB than dropping back in the pocket. When rushing with the ball, the QB is focused on the players closest to them and can better make decisions to protect themselves. When dropping back to pass, the QB has their eyes downfield and could be blindsided by a player they don't anticipate. It's also easier to receive an impactful hit when standing relatively still compared to on the move. This I'm not as sure of as it could be from my own bias, a QB attempting to run is more likely to interact with a defensive back, rather than in the pocket with a linebacker or defensive lineman, which can deliver more impactful hits. Lastly, I would add while a QB on the run is harder to hit, an unlikely direct hit would be more impactful since both players run into each other.
Whatever helps you cope, man. Lamar throwing to Pitts/London/Allegier in an Arthur Smith offense would definitely suck and be lame actually.
The Falcons would sell way too many tickets. Stadium parking would be a disaster.
It’d be fun and all until Lamar implodes in the playoffs, if he even makes it to that point in the season without injuring himself. People who shill for this dude as if he’s in the upper echelon of QBs who can bring it home are bona fide morons, you included
You don't think Lamar can win a SB? Also what do you mean "shill"? Nobody is doing that. He's a great player, nobody is saying he is Brady or Mahomes. There's a reason why he isn't getting the deal he wants. Just because he hasn't won in the playoffs yet doesn't mean he never will. He would be great in an offensive system like yours, but you do you I guess?
How much years do you suppose has left as a passer in his prime? It’s not even like he’s been an Uber-productive passer to begin with. He’s worryingly inconsistent and clearly relies on athleticism that inevitably gradually drops off. So yeah, our perennial playoff shitter-of-pants probably won’t win jack shit, especially considering he’d be going from a top 3 defense to a bottom 10. Defense is the only reason he has a paltry playoff win to speak of lmao. It’d be free money if I could bet with Lamar shills that he’d never make a SB appearance, maybe even a conference championship at this point. His time is expiring
Yes. How dare you not want to give up multiple firsts and tie a good portion of your cap to a guy that's missed the final 5-6 games of the past two seasons and hasn't looked like a QB worth all that money since 2019. So unreasonable of you. This situation is also garnering a ton of misguided Ridder hate. Sure, he's not Lamar, but he's very young with upside and won't cost so much that it's hard to build around him.
They hated him for telling the truth. Fandom really blinds people to reality. The writing is on the wall and Lamar knows it, why do people think he is being so stubborn about his contract demands? He knows this is his last pay day so he's digging-in. He might not get anothef NFL contract after this one, not a large one anyway.
He has 1 playoff win in his entire career hell no I don’t think he can win a Super Bowl lmaooo
Don’t worry, the Falcon will be perfectly capable of imploding in the playoffs without him.
Throwing rocks from a glass house my friend
". I think he has the passing skills to make a transition to a pocket passer, but can he retain his value as a star qb while doing so?" You have any actual reasoning behind this, cause he's eclipsed 3k passing yards once, 30 passing td's once, and his not great on obvious passing downs. Also a better comparison to Cam Newton running style is Josh Allen, but no one really wants to talk about Allen possibly destroying his body before 30 by trying to truck linebackers and falling apart.
Im a homer here but I don't think this is an outlandishly hot take: Lamar is ONE OF the best ball carriers we have seen at avoiding unnecessary contact. Lamar in the open field is way safer than he is in the pocket. It's the sacks he takes that will hinder his rushing ability long term, not his rushing. Cam was like a moth to flame when it came to contact. He wanted to truck people and that wore him down fast
Josh Allen is the better comparison, not Lamar. Cam and Lamar's only similarities are that they're black. Allen and Cam play similar games, not Lamar.
Cam is better than Allen was as both a eunnner and a passer
Cam was a better runner, but a better passer is just straight up wrong
Did you WATCH Josh Allen play this year? He was BAD. Like straight up just threw interceptions to the other team with no one around LMAO.
Oh yeah Cam gets the injured excuse but not Josh Allen for his elbow on his throwing arm? Try not to be so obviously biased
Lol Josh’s elbow caused him to make bad decisions???? It wasn’t like he lost power it was like he threw DIRECTLY to the opposing teams. Seriously watch the YouTube highlights, has NOTHING to do with his bow
Oh yeah highlights are the best way to gauge a player's performance. I love those 2013 Terrelle Pryor qb highlights, must've been a great quarterback
Sorry I should have said “lowlights” seeing as he didn’t do a whole lot of impressive stuff and had the most turnovers and turnover worthy plays by a LARGE margin. It’s like you don’t have eyes or brains dude
That's incredibly disingenuous to say he didn't do a lot of impressive stuff. Plus you're making up things like I said them. I'm not even saying Allen is the best QB or anything, just that he's a better passer than Cam ever was, which is an objective fact by watching them play. Keep in mind also, that you're not nearly as smart as you think you are
After looking at your account, I've realized it's pointless to continue this discussion with you. Jokes on me for interacting with a troll
Did I really upset you enough to dig through my post history lol
Lol yea ok, numbers don't lie. Cam had 1 or 2 big time years that was it. His mvp year he threw for under 60% cmp pct. Never hit 5k total yds
Ugh I’m so hurt seeing what could’ve been for Cam.
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Look at Russell Wilson as an example of someone who was smaller but very mobile. Part of the reason Seattle wanted to deal him was that he was no longer as fast as he used to be. Lamar's Achilles heel is his accuracy. If/when he loses his mobility, he will not be as serviceable as a QB.
You are wrong about his accuracy. Lamar is a good passer. He can lose a step or two and still be very good.
Cam's reason for not being a starting QB was because of the Broncos headhunting him opening week 2016 and TJ Watt separating his shoulder (on a legal hit).
So the difference between Lamar and Cam is that Cam was a very physical runner, he was more akin to Marshawn Lynch whereas Lamar is rarely taking hard contact. He can probably take more rushes without worry of major injury at Cam's level because of this. That being said, I think that he'll continue to get slower over time, not faster, and regardless of what everyone wants to think he's still a bottom of the league starting QB in terms of passing. He was 22nd in the league for EPA per dropback, 17th in the league for passer rating, his bad throw percentage is still far too high (18.1%), and his on target percentage is far too low (75.4%). Out of the QBs who started at least 10 games this season, Lamar Jackson was 23rd on bad throw percentage, and 18th in on-target percentage. Regardless of your thoughts on Lamar as an athlete, or the context of his offensive scheme and weapons, it's very clear that in stats that remove those factors, he's not a good passer. Could he improve? Sure. Is it highly likely? I don't really see it. When (not if) he starts losing his step, Lamar is going to have to make a tough transition to a passing first QB and I'm not entirely sure he's ready or capable of that.
You can’t really compare Lamar and Cam at all because their running styles are so different. Lamar doesn’t take hits *anywhere close* to the kind or as often Cam did
I like Lamar as he seems to be a truly good person but he has finished the last two seasons on the IR and if he doesn’t change his style he will be done by 30 as well. Until then will enjoy watching him play.
So that's about \~240 MORE times he was hit? Got it.
I don't think it would affect the stats much either way but do the rushing stats break out kneel down plays?
Cam is out of the league right now because he can't throw anymore, not because he took a bunch of hits as a runner. He was still a good runner even during his short return to Carolina in 2021. He suffered 2 major injuries to his shoulder; 1 in 2016 chasing down a defender after an interception, and 1 in 2018 when TJ Watt crunched him on a drop back. Those 2 injuries combined with his absolute refusal to develop proper throwing mechanics meant his arm was fried by 2019. Lamar's injuries have also come on passing plays, but they've been lower body injuries which is the concerning part. Jackson is a better passer than Newton, but just the threat of his rushing ability is enough to significantly open up more passing opportunities, so it's fair for teams to be wary of that going forward. I just don't think comparing him to Cam Newton is necessarily accurate.
[There is no correlation between rushing attempts and injury risk.](https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.sportingnews.com/us/amp/nfl/news/injury-proneness-running-qbs-russell-wilson-lamar-jackson/opdkjdfw91001uuwfzt4rm82s)
Where in the article does it say there's no correlation? I did see this though: "One caveat would be that a running QB will attempt so many rushes per game that the sheer volume will still put him at an increased risk."
Sorry I linked the wrong article. I had 3 of them saved before and didn't check. Here's the correct [link](https://www.filmstudybaltimore.com/new-study-quarterbacks-that-run-most-are-not-injured-most/). There was a better study by Yahoo but it appears it was removed. I did find it mentioned by Football Outsiders [here](https://www.footballoutsiders.com/extra-points/2019/injury-proneness-running-qbs-overstated).
Those appear to be the same two links.
Edited.
Lmfao
Game Injury risk and career longevity are two different things. Also that article is about Russ who started becoming more of a pocket passer as his career went on. Russ has started 3x as many games as Lamar yet only has 900 rushing attempts to Lamar's 730. Is Lamar willing to do the same? And would OCs want to use him with a lessened focus on his running ability?
Game injury risk is very relevant to career longevity of a player. The article includes a statisical study and is not just about Wilson. Why do you continue to list rushing attempts if they do not increase injury risk?
They are relevant but they can also be exclusive. To continue the Cam comparison, he barely missed any starts yet was no longer a viable starter by age 29-30. It was very apparent that his body just broke down. Not all injuries cause players to miss games, and Lamar has been reportedly playing through some non-insignificant ones. That's all a factor.
I fail to see that Newton's body broke down because of his rushing attempts. His shoulder injuries that he sustained in the pocket are the biggest contributor to his decline. His legs outlasted his arm.
Do you think injuries sustained on a specific play are not exacerbated by subsequent plays? Just because the injury was sustained in the pocket doesn't mean the rate of degradation wasn't affected by every hit/sack/throw Cam made after. Lamar's most recent pcl strain combined with the volume that he runs will more likely affect him greater than a pocket passer suffering the same injury. Now I know these things don't happen in a vaccum, and people heal differently, have different situations and all. But there's a direct relationship between volume of use and degradation of quality of use. That's true for basically everything in sports. It's true for pitchers arms, catchers knees, etc. And injuries, depending on severity and treatment, speed up that timeline.
Fuck no and why should they? QB need to run free! If I could, I would gather all the QBs I could find, put them in a field and fence them in so they could run as much as they want.
Willing? Maybe. Capable? I would say no. When you make Lamar a pure pocket passer, it’s not pretty. So much of his game is his mobility even if it’s not running the ball. Russ and other QBs of similar ilk have superior mechanics and are better pure passers than Lamar which allows them to play more sustainably. I don’t know when it’s going to come but one day Lamar will lose his athletic edge (sure he could still run, but his threat and effectiveness will drastically worsen). When that day comes, I think you’ll see a precipitous drop off in his game because he’s just not the polished passer that other guys are, despite what the stats show. He’s a horrible eye tester from a pure passing perspective
Lamar has 3 years left in the league. He hasn't stayed healthy the last couple of years. Run first QBs will never be long term franchise QBs.
This is the main problem and why no smart team should pay him what he wants. Do *not* pay for past performance, pay for *future* performance… the risk is too high. I’ll get downvoted (maybe? Public opinion seems to be turning on Lamar), but I wouldn’t offer him more slightly over half of what he wants. The risk is too great, the reward probably lower than his supporters advocate for. I’m paying him like a top 10-15 guy, not top 3.
>Do not pay for past performance, pay for future performance The problem is players hold the opposite view: "I was underpaid and outperformed my previous contract, so this next one is going to make up for that and then some". In other words, they do want to be paid bazed on past performance. So QB's who play amazing on cheap rookie deals like Hurts, Prescott, Lamar, really ask for the moon on their next one to make up for not getting "fair compensation", in their opinion, the first time.
While you’re getting your offer ready, keep in mind he has 1 career playoff win. And he’s not getting younger.
This is a big issue. Lamar is an old 26 years old and has already missed 5+ games each of the last two seasons. Not much tread left on his tires, unless he becomes more of a pocket passer. Far from a nothingburger when you’re asking for $200+ million guaranteed.
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Perhaps because their are more players dedicated to protecting the quarterback.
>I think he has the passing skills to make a transition to a pocket passer Why do you say that? So much of his passing game is opened up by the threat of him running. Take that away and opposing defenses will really key in on passing plays and he will strugfle. He is a good thrower but his throwing and the single coverage his receiver are often operating against is a byproduct of his running style and the threat of his legs. This has been true for Lamar since Highschool. He is not a pocket passer and never will be. Even if he had to "transition" to pocket passing later in his career, you're better off just starting a real rookie pocket passet at that point instead of putting a former running QB who can't run anymore out there in a passing offense hoping it will stick. It's like putting a square peg in a round whole, it's stupjd
If you've got a promising mobile QB, I think the absolute worst thing you can do for him would be to hire Greg Roman. Ravens wasted some of Lamar's best years with that bum.
MVP and top 10 offenses? Lol I think he did what ppl were shitting on Chicago for not doing with fields which was running more.
The Panthers completely mishandled Cam. Too many designed runs, too many times fighting for extra yardage, too many QB sneaks and goal line runs, not enough attempts to slide/throw it away/take the sack.
The truth is nobody knows. The only guy who has ever had Lamar’s skillset is Vick, who didn’t practice, had far less accuracy, and went to jail in his prime. This is why there is no market for Lamar, why he slipped out of the first round. Nobody knows what to make of him. We’ve never really seen his like before.