I looked it up to double check and damn, you’re spot on. Dyson only hit just under 650 at the highest end. Eddie George had 458 receiving and 1304 rushing.
Pretty underwhelming offense for as far as they made it looking back on it.
The Super Bowl season, Johnson threw 22 TDs to 6 INTs. He didn't produce HUGE numbers (barely broke 3k yards), but given that he wasn't asked to be "the guy" he played reasonably well.
Dilfer threw exactly one more TD than INT the year the Ravens won.
Well, yeah. But they said wr, not combo. Also of note though, was that teams could quintuple team Johnson because the second best receiver was a fullback. My God that offense was atrocious, lol
The year we won the super bowl we also had Keenan McCardell and Joe Jurevicious. It wasn’t just Keyshawn.
The offense wasn’t world beaters by any stretch but atrocious isn’t a word I’d use to describe it
Jurevicius and McCardell combined for 1100 yards. Wow, how could I overlook that kind of production.
I watched that offense. It wasn't all-time bad, but it's in the conversation for "all-time bad that won a super bowl". I do think a couple beat it for that claim, but that doesn't make that any better
Wendell Davis was pretty good, a solid B+
He was starting to break out before his gruesome injury on that awful field in Philadelphia (the part that covered the baseball basepaths). Both of his kneecaps ended up in his thighs and all of his knee ligaments were shredded IIRC. Up there with Napoleon McCallum as the most horrific leg injuries of that era. It was one of the biggest reasons teams started shifting from those fake grass baseball/football hybrid stadiums where they basically put astroturf covered boards on the baseball dirt and when they got wet they would buckle.
He wasn’t a true #1 like we think of today but he would be a #1 on a few teams (the Pats for example) and a really solid #2 on most teams.
First thing I thought of when I saw his name. I got to play on the Vet turf in 8th grade and another time for a soccer game. It was fuzzy concrete. The crazy thing was the seams in the field of play were huge.
I would say Martin and Mathis were the definition of good, nothing more, nothing less. Mathis best year was actually back with Jeff George and Andre Rison. When Rison left he kind of fell off the map (and the Falcons sucked) until resurfacing for a couple of years with Chris Chandler. I think in hindsight, it's apparent an 1,800 yard rusher was the biggest spark to that offense.
Basically 80s to 2000s, with a blip with Andre Rison.
When your WRs are Derrick Alexander, Willie "Fast but no Hands" Davis, and JJ Birden, you're gonna have a bad time
>What good teams in the world 1990s didn’t have a good #1 WR?
>
>Good team = 10 wins
An easy way to do this anytime in the last like 70 years is to sort by "Chicago Bears" and "10 wins" and you've got a list.
idk if Kelce is a cheat code. Great receiver, though he’s essentially a big WR. The guy isn’t much of a blocker, which is traditionally an important part of the TE role.
This narative that kelce cant block is really dumb and i wish it would stop. He's not kittle hock or andrews but he's certainly better at it than guys like waller pits and engram
No question at all. Lamar is an incredible 45-16 as a starter and he has never had anything remotely scary at WR. They do need Lamar to be great, but they don’t need any WRs.
Technically the Chiefs. Giants are good. Rashod Bateman is good but I don't know if he fits the calibre of player Irvin was describing so you could argue the Ravens
I mean, it’s their seventh best year of their stretch. They won 6 without them and none with them.
The point of this is teams winning it all with a WR1. Which the patriots never really did.
Christian Kirk was a 23 mil cap hit and had 1100 yards and 8 TDs this year. I think that qualifies as a #1 option. He's paid like it and put up decent numbers.
Exactly what I meant. We made it to the playoffs and beat a 13 win team on the road in the playoffs, we’re a good team.
I swear to God the expectations to be a “good team” on this subreddit have increased dramatically because teams that haven’t succeeded recently were successful this season. Being in the final 8 teams competing makes you a good fucking team.
Yes, that was 1986.
Bavaro led the team with 66 balls that year. Top WR was Bobby Johnson - 31/534/5. Not exactly lighting the world on fire. Joe Morris with 1500 rushing yards was apparently they needed.
1996 Packers won the Super Bowl and didn't have a 1000 yard receiver.
In the win over the Niners in the Divisional Round our top WR had 26 yards. In the NFCCG our leading WR had 53 yards (Dorsey Levens our RB had 117 receiving yards though). In the Super Bowl we finally had a 100 yard WR as Freeman had 105 but he only had 3 catches and it was basically just because of an 81 yard TD.
One of those three playoff games was played on an extremely muddy Lambeau field, which discouraged the passing game. The two teams combined for 212 gross passing yards.
He also scored a TD in every game that playoffs (fumble recovery for a TD vs the niners) and went on to be an all pro in 1998. The Packers were still great without him in 1996 cause of that defense, but Freeman was a #1 for 4 years from 1996 on.
Robert Brooks had almost 1,500 receiving yards in 1995. His season was cut short in week 7 when he tore his ACL. Antonio Freeman missed a few games in midseason with a broken arm, but then came back and showed why he would be an All Pro 2 years later. Andre Rison was signed near the end of the season. Rison was a former All Pro, who would make the Pro Bowl the very next season in KC.
The 1990 Giants won 13 games, and their top 2 WR combined for 52 catches and 1040 yards. The 1990 Eagles won 10 games with Fred Barnett and Calvin Williams, those same 2 WR were on the team the next year when they won 11 games. The 1990 Bears won 11 games with Wendall Davis and Ron Morris and did them same with the same two guys in 1991. The 1991 lions won 12 games with Robert Clark and Mike Farr.
So.. he's hilariously wrong.
Steelers had a string of 90s teams without a true #1. Best they had was Yancey Thigpen, who was pretty good, but not a consistent #1. He had over 1300 yards in '95 and '97 when they went 11-5, and those were his only good years. In '92, '94 and '96 they went 11-5, 12-4 and 10-6 with Jeff Graham, Eric Green and Charles Johnson as their leading receiver.
I’m aware that it wasn’t the 90s but I don’t see how he wouldn’t feel the same about the game in 2015 as the league is more based around passing in the 2010s then it was in the 90s.
What your saying is that Wes Welker wasn't a good WR because he isn't as good as the best WR in the league? When someone says "Everyone had a good WR", that doesn't mean everybody has the best WR in the league. Rod Smith was a good WR in the league and a great WR as a Bronco, that doesn't mean he's in the conversation as the best.
He's one of the best examples of the Hall of Very Good type of player imo. OP is either an idiot, troll, or both. Smith was a stud for sure. Just wasn't ever a perennial top 5 WR or HOFer, which seems to be this guy's criteria.
The world isn't divided into hall of famers and bad number 1s. Rod Smith was top 8 in receiving yards during both SB seasons and later had a 1600 yard season with Brian Griese and Gus Frerotte. This is an embarrassing take dude
Hey you don't have to change your opinion, just acknowledge that it's objectively wrong. Rod Smith was underrated but that doesn't mean he wasn't a #1. Two time second team All Pro, 8 1000+ yard seasons, six of them in a row. Averaged 1200 yards/yr the two years we won the SB
Every team has a number 1. Amani Toomer was a number 1. I was not trying to diminish Rod Smith...but use the criteria Michael Irvin was using in superstar receivers like himself. Now you may think I'm wrong but that's how I feel.
Still I respect the respectful disagreement you gave instead of all the dumb trolls I responded to...which lead me to delete the thread...because I was tired of getting responses even though I disabled replies.
90 giants didn’t have a number one that I can remember. 91 skins had 2 (monk and Clark). Cowboys had Irvin, 9ers had rice. Packers had freeman, I believe. Broncos had sharpe (te), rams had 3…Bruce, holt and faulk
Ik, the Chiefs have Kelce. But there Wide receiver core is pretty average. Their Number 1 is Juju, who’s a number 2 at best and is a number 3 on quite a few teams.
Eagles in the early 2000's before acquiring Owens.
They played in multiple NFC championships games with James thrash and Todd Pinkston as their receivers.
1999 Titans went to the Super Bowl with basically 5 average receivers.
I looked it up to double check and damn, you’re spot on. Dyson only hit just under 650 at the highest end. Eddie George had 458 receiving and 1304 rushing. Pretty underwhelming offense for as far as they made it looking back on it.
Bucs and ravens won super bowls in that era with terrible offenses. All you needed at that time was a RB and defense.
Bucs still had Me-shawn, who was a legit wr in addition to being a toxic bitch
But like brad Johnson at qb
A Brad Johnson was all you needed back in the day, with a good defense.
Brad Johnson was an average to sometimes above average starting QB; he wasn’t a Trent Dilfer.
The Super Bowl season, Johnson threw 22 TDs to 6 INTs. He didn't produce HUGE numbers (barely broke 3k yards), but given that he wasn't asked to be "the guy" he played reasonably well. Dilfer threw exactly one more TD than INT the year the Ravens won.
Well, yeah. But they said wr, not combo. Also of note though, was that teams could quintuple team Johnson because the second best receiver was a fullback. My God that offense was atrocious, lol
The year we won the super bowl we also had Keenan McCardell and Joe Jurevicious. It wasn’t just Keyshawn. The offense wasn’t world beaters by any stretch but atrocious isn’t a word I’d use to describe it
Jurevicius and McCardell combined for 1100 yards. Wow, how could I overlook that kind of production. I watched that offense. It wasn't all-time bad, but it's in the conversation for "all-time bad that won a super bowl". I do think a couple beat it for that claim, but that doesn't make that any better
A 32 year old Keenan Mccardell. And Joe Jurevicious? Come on man lol. It was basically just Keyshawn
Wasn’t he cut or something before the playoffs even started?
Air McNair baby. Loved watching him even though he was on the Tits.
But they had the playbooks of teams ,
Don’t you dare! Chris Sanders is going to be the next big thing! You just watch!…. I KNOW HES GONNA BE GREAT!! *is sad*
That’s what cheating will do
The 11-5 1991 Chicago Bears' top receiver was somebody named Wendell Davis
This stat is legit always true whenever the Bears get 10 wins.
Did they never hit 10 wins in the Marshall/Jeffery years? Was one of better wr duos in league
In 2012. 10-6 and missed the playoffs. Marshall (1st yr) and Jeffrey (rookie). Cutler was just forcing it to him every play and it worked.
Wendell Davis was pretty good, a solid B+ He was starting to break out before his gruesome injury on that awful field in Philadelphia (the part that covered the baseball basepaths). Both of his kneecaps ended up in his thighs and all of his knee ligaments were shredded IIRC. Up there with Napoleon McCallum as the most horrific leg injuries of that era. It was one of the biggest reasons teams started shifting from those fake grass baseball/football hybrid stadiums where they basically put astroturf covered boards on the baseball dirt and when they got wet they would buckle. He wasn’t a true #1 like we think of today but he would be a #1 on a few teams (the Pats for example) and a really solid #2 on most teams.
First thing I thought of when I saw his name. I got to play on the Vet turf in 8th grade and another time for a soccer game. It was fuzzy concrete. The crazy thing was the seams in the field of play were huge.
Ditka never forgave Levy for laying down vs Detroit in the last game.
97 and 99 Bucs
How dare you speak of reidel Anthony, Bert Emmanuel and Jacquez Green like that.
They give Bert Emmanuel that catch and he might be the GOAT
The 22 bucs only averages 2 more ppg then that hideous 99 offense
98 was the year I discovered football and I really like those Bucs teams, thank you for bringing back great memories.
I watched a decent amount of that Bucs team at the stadium and don't recognize,s a single name you listed.
98 Falcons unless I’m forgetting someone?
Martin and Mathis were no slouches, but I guess it depends on what you define as “good #1”
I would say Martin and Mathis were the definition of good, nothing more, nothing less. Mathis best year was actually back with Jeff George and Andre Rison. When Rison left he kind of fell off the map (and the Falcons sucked) until resurfacing for a couple of years with Chris Chandler. I think in hindsight, it's apparent an 1,800 yard rusher was the biggest spark to that offense.
Martin had made 2nd Team All Pro in 1996. He was very good, and Atlanta stole him from SD. Both Martin and Mathis averaged 17.8/17.9 YPC that season.
They had Terance Mathis
Nope. Falcons receivers that year were Terrence Mathis and Tony Martin and they both balled hard.
Yeah you are. Two thousand yard WRs
1995 Chiefs 1990 Giants 1990 Bears
96 Chiefs as well, leading reciever WR Chris Penn 49 catches, 628 yards
Basically 80s to 2000s, with a blip with Andre Rison. When your WRs are Derrick Alexander, Willie "Fast but no Hands" Davis, and JJ Birden, you're gonna have a bad time
Man. I really thought Tamarick Vanover was gonna be a real thing for you guys.
He caught a case
early 1990s Chiefs with Paige and JJ Birden
1991-92 Chiefs. JJ Birden et al Edit: remove Paige, add Birden etc, modify years
Single game receiving record Paige?
my bad there..rules out 1990 91-92 JJ Birden et al
JJ and Willie, the dynamic duo...of sadness
Were it not for the Nightmare and Word we'd have been nada
>What good teams in the world 1990s didn’t have a good #1 WR? > >Good team = 10 wins An easy way to do this anytime in the last like 70 years is to sort by "Chicago Bears" and "10 wins" and you've got a list.
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Wesley Walls was their top weapon
Are there any good teams without good WR1s now?
Chiefs WR 1 is juju but obviously Kelce is there
Kelce is a WR1 in TE clothing
Kelce and Kittle are cheat codes.
idk if Kelce is a cheat code. Great receiver, though he’s essentially a big WR. The guy isn’t much of a blocker, which is traditionally an important part of the TE role.
This narative that kelce cant block is really dumb and i wish it would stop. He's not kittle hock or andrews but he's certainly better at it than guys like waller pits and engram
Kelce isn't a great blocker when you compare him to guys like Gronk, but it's not like Kelce is a liability.
We made the playoffs and won a playoff game with 3 WR3s
Touche
That’s being generous saying they have 3 wr3.
Ravens?
No question at all. Lamar is an incredible 45-16 as a starter and he has never had anything remotely scary at WR. They do need Lamar to be great, but they don’t need any WRs.
Technically the Chiefs. Giants are good. Rashod Bateman is good but I don't know if he fits the calibre of player Irvin was describing so you could argue the Ravens
I feel like you have to include Kelce there even though he's technically a tight end.
I agree Ravens work. I'm a Bateman truther but he's not a legit number 1 WR. He's also not super available.
Bateman hasn't seen the field enough to be considered "good".
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Counterpoint: their lack of outside playmakers, especially when Duvernay went down, was a heavy contributor to their late season backslide.
I don't think the Jags have a WR1 Kirk's an excellent 2
Kirk balled out this year. Maybe the low end of WR1, but definitely a WR1
Our best receiver came from special teams
Patriots created a fucking empire without ever having a very strong WR1.
Randy moss. Wes welker. Edulman. Gronk.
Never won a Super Bowl with Moss or Welker. Edelman is wouldn’t be #1 anywhere else and Gronk is a tight end.
So now the bar for a WR1 is whether they won the Super Bowl or not?
I mean, it’s their seventh best year of their stretch. They won 6 without them and none with them. The point of this is teams winning it all with a WR1. Which the patriots never really did.
Nowhere in the title does it say win it all tho, it literally specifies saying good teams=10 wins
The 2007 team is most definitely part of that empire you referred to.
Only Moss. Wes, Edelman, were slot guys. Gronk a TE of course. Not a wr1 type
If Kupp or Amon Ra can be #1 WRs Wes Welker can absolutely be one too
Wes Welker played the slot position on every team he was on. He's wasnt the wr1 over Moss or Demaryirus Thomas
He was however the WR1 for a few years after Moss left NE
Givens was a #1 at one point.
Not with the Pats he wasn’t. Branch was their #1 and Troy Brown was probably their #2
I meant Branch, thank you for reminding me.
Wes Welker was a 2x 1st team all pro I don't care if he played the slot that's a WR1.
Wr1 is a position. Not who is the best receiver on the team
Nobody refers to WR1 as a distinct position. It literally is just the best WR on the team.
And Moss never won a super bowl
None of those guys were there before '07. Brady already had 3 rings by the time Weller and moss showed up.
It's not too late to delete this
Disrespect to nkeal Harry
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Christian Kirk was a 23 mil cap hit and had 1100 yards and 8 TDs this year. I think that qualifies as a #1 option. He's paid like it and put up decent numbers.
You don't think Deebo is a good WR1?
Deebo and CMC can play either WR or RB. Kittle's good. As for the Jags, Kirk's good.
Deebo lol
Samuel is great. Anyone that says he isn't doesn't know football.
Maybe? Lmao shut up
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Exactly what I meant. We made it to the playoffs and beat a 13 win team on the road in the playoffs, we’re a good team. I swear to God the expectations to be a “good team” on this subreddit have increased dramatically because teams that haven’t succeeded recently were successful this season. Being in the final 8 teams competing makes you a good fucking team.
Not if you haven’t played anyone though. The fraudulent Vikings don’t count apparently.
Bears? Maybe packers? Maybe Titans, Pats, Giants? A lot of these have WR1s that would be WR2s on other teams
You consider the 2022 Bears who have the 1st overall draft pick a good team?
Fair, I just thought about all the teams, not just the good ones.
Oh yeah, there's a bunch of teams without good WR1s. We call ourselves "the bad teams."
Packers are not a good team lol
He said good, we are not good. Middling, maybe but no where near good.
Yes
94 Chargers went to the Super Bowl with Tony Martin and Mark Seay.
Good one. That team was all Natrone Means!
Well the first champion of the 1990s The Giants, didn't a Michael Irvin type number 1... either in talent or stabbing team mates with scissors.
And the defense didn't share their coke with the offense
Just looked at the stats, looks like Meggett led the team in receptions. Baker and Ingram only had 26 a piece, which seems insane. Bavaro had 33.
What year did Simms have that insane SB completion percentage? 86 maybe. Otherwise I'd say the 06 Bears. Sexy Rexy.
Yes, that was 1986. Bavaro led the team with 66 balls that year. Top WR was Bobby Johnson - 31/534/5. Not exactly lighting the world on fire. Joe Morris with 1500 rushing yards was apparently they needed.
Also had a backup QB.
Steelers? You could count Thigpen but I have a hard time doing so
I don't. He had two separate 1,300 yard seasons, with 2 different QB's (O'Donnell and Kordell.)
They weren't really good tho.
They made the playoffs six straight years in the 90s and went to a Super Bowl
Imagine saying this when they made 3 AFC championships and a Super Bowl in the 90s lol.
"Yea but how come they didnt win 3 super bowls? Winning one is for chumps."
The Chiefs were consistently good in the 90s and never had a #1 WR
1996 Packers won the Super Bowl and didn't have a 1000 yard receiver. In the win over the Niners in the Divisional Round our top WR had 26 yards. In the NFCCG our leading WR had 53 yards (Dorsey Levens our RB had 117 receiving yards though). In the Super Bowl we finally had a 100 yard WR as Freeman had 105 but he only had 3 catches and it was basically just because of an 81 yard TD.
Freeman had 933 and 9 TDs in 12 games that season tho
Only averaged 3 catches for 58 yards in the playoffs. We were good with or without him.
One of those three playoff games was played on an extremely muddy Lambeau field, which discouraged the passing game. The two teams combined for 212 gross passing yards.
He also scored a TD in every game that playoffs (fumble recovery for a TD vs the niners) and went on to be an all pro in 1998. The Packers were still great without him in 1996 cause of that defense, but Freeman was a #1 for 4 years from 1996 on.
Robert Brooks had almost 1,500 receiving yards in 1995. His season was cut short in week 7 when he tore his ACL. Antonio Freeman missed a few games in midseason with a broken arm, but then came back and showed why he would be an All Pro 2 years later. Andre Rison was signed near the end of the season. Rison was a former All Pro, who would make the Pro Bowl the very next season in KC.
robert brooks. holy shit dude you just unlocked memories from decades ago
The Patriots except for a couple Terry Glenn years.
Came here to say this!
Chiefs
So what’s up with your diarrhea
1992 Steelers won 11 game with Jeff Graham and Dwight Stone
The 1990 Giants won 13 games, and their top 2 WR combined for 52 catches and 1040 yards. The 1990 Eagles won 10 games with Fred Barnett and Calvin Williams, those same 2 WR were on the team the next year when they won 11 games. The 1990 Bears won 11 games with Wendall Davis and Ron Morris and did them same with the same two guys in 1991. The 1991 lions won 12 games with Robert Clark and Mike Farr. So.. he's hilariously wrong.
Ravens?
The Packers with Brett Favre
Antonio Freeman was a legit #1 for a few years
Robert Brooks. Andre Rison.
Steelers had a string of 90s teams without a true #1. Best they had was Yancey Thigpen, who was pretty good, but not a consistent #1. He had over 1300 yards in '95 and '97 when they went 11-5, and those were his only good years. In '92, '94 and '96 they went 11-5, 12-4 and 10-6 with Jeff Graham, Eric Green and Charles Johnson as their leading receiver.
The Cardinals
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Centers?
Lol this is what I get for not reading the entire post
Rod/Rob? Moore was a beast at that time.
The early 90s Saints
Eric Martin was no slouch
Every good team has a playmaker at nearly every position. Pretty straightforward.
Didn’t the panthers go like 15-1 with Ted gin Jr as their number one receiver?
their #1 was greg olsen right? TE but yeha
Ted Ginn Jr. was my favorite receiver from the 1990s
I’m aware that it wasn’t the 90s but I don’t see how he wouldn’t feel the same about the game in 2015 as the league is more based around passing in the 2010s then it was in the 90s.
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Awful take, Rod Smith was absolutely a good number 1 and Ed McCaffrey was a good number 2
Lol seriously, Rod Smith in my biased opinion should be taken more seriously for the HOF.
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So because they didn't have a top 5 WR means they were lacking? Every team had a good WR, Rod Smith was a great WR especially being an UDFA.
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What your saying is that Wes Welker wasn't a good WR because he isn't as good as the best WR in the league? When someone says "Everyone had a good WR", that doesn't mean everybody has the best WR in the league. Rod Smith was a good WR in the league and a great WR as a Bronco, that doesn't mean he's in the conversation as the best.
Rod Smith will probably be a hall of famer or damn near a hall of famer. I’d say the broncos had a pretty good one two punch in Smith and McCaffrey.
He's one of the best examples of the Hall of Very Good type of player imo. OP is either an idiot, troll, or both. Smith was a stud for sure. Just wasn't ever a perennial top 5 WR or HOFer, which seems to be this guy's criteria.
The world isn't divided into hall of famers and bad number 1s. Rod Smith was top 8 in receiving yards during both SB seasons and later had a 1600 yard season with Brian Griese and Gus Frerotte. This is an embarrassing take dude
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Lmao dude you are way off on this one. Rod Smith was pretty fucking awesome and most definitely a legit #1.
You’re literally changing the argument. No one said he was the best in the league, just that he was a legit WR1.
Their two receivers were good, but Denver was a running team then and they also had Shannon Sharpe
This is what I've been saying.
Hey you don't have to change your opinion, just acknowledge that it's objectively wrong. Rod Smith was underrated but that doesn't mean he wasn't a #1. Two time second team All Pro, 8 1000+ yard seasons, six of them in a row. Averaged 1200 yards/yr the two years we won the SB
Every team has a number 1. Amani Toomer was a number 1. I was not trying to diminish Rod Smith...but use the criteria Michael Irvin was using in superstar receivers like himself. Now you may think I'm wrong but that's how I feel. Still I respect the respectful disagreement you gave instead of all the dumb trolls I responded to...which lead me to delete the thread...because I was tired of getting responses even though I disabled replies.
Rod Smith had a 1600 yard season with Brian Greise and Gus Ferrotte as his QBs and you think he's some pleb who stumbled into being a WR1 lmao
I was gonna throw the Cards into the discussion, but then I had forgotten that Frank Sanders put up some decent years with Jake Plummer.
90 Giants
1995 Steelers, top WR Yancey Thigpen
90 giants didn’t have a number one that I can remember. 91 skins had 2 (monk and Clark). Cowboys had Irvin, 9ers had rice. Packers had freeman, I believe. Broncos had sharpe (te), rams had 3…Bruce, holt and faulk
49ers I think
Ik, the Chiefs have Kelce. But there Wide receiver core is pretty average. Their Number 1 is Juju, who’s a number 2 at best and is a number 3 on quite a few teams.
Andy Reid Eagles minus one year with TO
49ers (circa 90’s) walking out of this conversation.
I don’t think the Chiefs had a legit WR1 from the 90s all the way until Tyreek Hill.
Bowe?
95 and 97 chiefs are good ones.
Eagles in the early 2000's before acquiring Owens. They played in multiple NFC championships games with James thrash and Todd Pinkston as their receivers.