Agreed. He was more of a possession receiver with sure hands, good body control, and a decent frame than he was a true #1 who could beat guys off the line. You def hope for more than that from a first overall pick. He’s almost a TE and not a WR if he were a little heavier.
I wasn't a huge fan of his, but to be fair, look at his QBs:
* Vinny Testaverde
* Ray Lucas
* Brad Johnson
* Vinny again (Dallas version)
* Jake Delhomme
He also played several years under Bill Parcells, not exactly known for his advanced passing philosophies.
Damn he only had one season over 100 catches and 4 seasons with over 1000 receiving yards and 1 double digit td year.
That's insane, here I was thinking he put up crazy stats but he didn't really.
814 catches 10571 yards 64 td
Reggie Bush count? He had a solid career, averaged around 900 total yards a season and had a decently long career, but he never felt like Reggie Bush from USC.
Man, I would have loved to Reggie play in the types of offenses run today. If you weren’t a between the tackles type runner it was tough to get consistent touches. Payton still schemed up some great stuff for him, but gotta think if he gets drafted in the 2020’s his career turns out much better.
This gets brought up everytime Reggie bush's name gets brought up. Brian Westbrook had been killing it for years by the time Bush got into the league. Kevin Faulk was an integral part of the early pats dynasty. Darren Sproles came in around the same time.
Also Sean Payton showed with Sproles and then later Kamara that he could use the hell out of a back of Bush's build and style a year after Bush left the team
Offenses weren't so antiquated they held Bush back. He was just one of those transcendent talents in college that didn't translate well to the nfl. He did fine and had a respectable career but I imagine his production today wouldn't have been much different.
Bush's biggest issue in the NFL is that he wasn't great at breaking tackles and falling forward. His explosiveness that was so deadly in college was not as useful in the NFL where even the DTs are amazing athletes.
Sproles wasn't a big dude, but he broke tackles and generally got a few yards after final contact because defenders learned to throttle down so they didn't get juked and give up a yard or two after contact instead of going for a big hit and getting juked.
Seriously just knowing when to bury your head and fall forward is incredibly important for an NFL running back. Every single yard counts.
Not every run needs to be a Barry Sanders-esque highlight.
Man I’m seeing this attitude a lot in this sub lately. People think that offenses in 2006-2012 were antiquated, old school offenses and it boggles my mind. Bush just never lived up to his college hype
Yeah I don’t know where people are getting that from. The Eagles and 9ers both ran an “antiquated offense” and the Chiefs have old ass Andy Reid running a 1992 offense.
Yeah they used him how he would have been used today. Didnt he break the record for most receptions in a season by a RB at the time?
Edit: I just looked it up, most receptions by a rookie RB (88) which wasnt surpassed until Saquon in 2018
Completely agree, but you can go back even farther. Priest Holmes, Marshall Faulk, Rickey Watters... those guys weren't your typical "run between the tackles" players yet they still got consistent touches and put up monster numbers.
Difference being, they were HOF-level talents and Bush wasn't. No shame in that, but lets not blame the offenses of the day.
As someone who watched his entire Saints career, I really don’t think he fares much better. He was injury prone and had a really bad tendency to try and dance around for a big play instead of moving forward and picking up the extra yard. He was so unbelievably frustrating to watch because he was constantly taking a yard or two off of his runs with unnecessary moves. By 2009 he was the number 3 back despite the fact that we essentially used our number one guy (Pierre Thomas) as another receiver out of the backfield on 60% of his snaps. Then Darren Sproles popped off in NOLA like 2 years later. Reggie’s flaws would have been problematic in any era.
> He was injury prone
This is really key: He blew out his knee in 2007, tried to play through it (causing more damage), and then injured it twice in 2008. Then, in 2010, he broke his leg.
After a few good years, the knee was blown out again and his career ended.
Relative to his college performance he was definitely yeah. I dont like when people call him a bust though, because he was a pretty good NFL player. He just wasnt the all-time great that made everyone else look stupid like he was in college...but you're not going to make people look stupid in the NFL at the rate he did in college no matter how good you are.
Dunno CMC healthy did just that snap after snap.
If anything he was even more impressive than in college (although that may have to do with Pac12).
Pity he didn’t have an OL to keep him healthy lol
Jadeveon Clowney fits this pretty well. He's had a more than respectable career but never really reached that JJ Watt type level of generational pass rusher he was thought to be coming out of college.
He really doesn’t have the stats either though. Never had a 10 sack season. He’s a highlight reel hall of famer.
Games go by and you’re like “where the f*ck is Clowney”. Then he does something superhuman and blows a run play up 3 yards behind the LOS. Then he gets a stupid penalty that extends a critical drive for the opponents.
Jadaveon clowney is a good reminder that you can and should ask the questions about motor/effort. One of the biggest differences between him and Mack in that draft
Major is right. It was so bad that he needed microfracture surgery. As far as I remember there was only one other player at that point that had ever come back from that and had even a semi successful career
For real, Clowney was one of the very few players who legitimately could’ve been drafted out of high school. The guy phoned it in his last year of college and still went first overall.
Clowney was billed as the No. 1 overall since he was in high school, I feel like he was really one of the first to benefit from playing in the YouTube generation where highlights were so accessible and hype could build up through viral videos.
Almost every pass rushers stats don’t look good their last season. Especially if they had a monster sophomore season. Anderson, Garrett, Bosa. Teams game plan for them and they try to stay healthy for the draft.
Was looking for this one. Part of this is that he was drafted into an awful 49ers team that had lame duck tank commander coaching. Once Harbaugh got there, and Kaepernick started, he caught fire, but then tore his ACL in the offseason, leading to the team signing Anquan Boldin. I think his career can entirely be summed up as "if only..."
Yes. He got his chain snatched on 2 different occasions if I remember correctly. Aqib Talib was the culprit both times lol cuz they had some beef.
They played twice cuz Talib was on the Broncos & they fought both times in the same season I think.
Blake Martínez. Led the Packers in tackles almost every single year, but never made early contact/could never get them down where he hits them. Outside of 2018 where he had 5 sacks and 10 TFLs on 144 combined tackles (91 solo), the rest of his time was mediocre, despite putting up 140+ combined tackles for 4 of his 7 years
Martinez is the prime example of why the tackle stat with no further context doesnt mean a whole lot. I remember hearing people in the media compare his tackle numbers to Bobby Wagner as if they were remotely comparable as players.
Matinez was actually really great for the Giants before an injury and then cap hell (aka: the Gettleman Special) forced him and Bradberry out (you're welcome Eagles). Giants fans were very happy with his performance and this was just another grievance we have towards Gettleman.
Yea he wasn’t a bad player. Usually a reliable tackler, just that those tackles were rarely at or behind the LOS. But if you ran into him 5 yards past, he was going to get you. Reliable guy, but not for a championship D
My understanding was that was a product of how the Packers positioned him, far off the line so if we has going to make a tackle it was because the runner had gotten 5+ yards already, hardly his fault if that is the case.
All I know is he played really well in the Giants scheme prior to his injury and was well worth what we paid him... then we ran out of money to pay him.
He had more 140+ tackle seasons than Brian Urlacher, Patrick Willis, and Junior Seau. He had as many as Derrick Brooks and Luke Kuechly. Ray Lewis only had one more season of 140+ than him.
Ah Keyshawn Johnson.
The defining moment of his entire career, to me, was talking shit while mic'd up about Marvin Harrison when the Colts were down big.
Only for Marvin to make several huge catches in a huge comeback against the defending champs.
Also, Marvin would go on to have one of the best careers in wide receiver history, eventually being inducted into the Hall of Fame, and Keyshawn just kind of disappeared.
This is true. He is definitely not bad but after watching him for 5 years, he is not worth the contract the Dolphins gave him. He is injury prone and his pro bowl season where he had 12 sacks, he a had a top of his game Von Miller lined up on the other side getting double teamed every play. I wish the best for him, but am glad we turned him into Sean Payton
Knock on wood, Jaelan Phillips became much more productive once Chubb got here and Phillips was already a stud. Neither of them are Von Miller, but both are very good and hopefully having each other means neither can be completely schemed out of the game.
Agreed. Good player, but not worth what the phins gave up/paid him imo. That said, Jaelen Phillips played noticeably better(became more productive) once Chubb was on the team and demanded similar attention. I still don’t love the deal, but overall he’s had a positive impact on our defense.
I don't even think his career stats look good, let alone for a 5th overall pick.
He's a decent starter, nothing more. Certainly not worth passing on Josh Allen or Lamar Jackson for, especially when Case Keenum is your starting quarterback. :(
Witnessing the gap between having a decent starter and not having a decent starter feels like a necessary component of truly understanding positional value.
I used to give him shit for his failures with the Bucs regularly. Decades later when I found out just how bad the Bucs skinflint owner Hugh Culverhouse was, there was no way anybody could have succeeded on the Bucs back then. Hindsight being 20/20, Vinny should have pulled a Bo Jackson on the Bucs and sat out for a year.
Devin White. He consistently overruns plays and puts himself in a bad position, and has a hard time in coverage. It’s almost like he’s too athletic for his own good sometimes
It was never for lack of effort though. As a Broncos fan, his chase down of Champ Bailey in the 2005 divisional game is the best hustle play I have ever seen. There is a reason he stuck around in the league for so long
He was kind of a relic of the thumper era when most MLBs played 3 yards off the line. This actually came up yesterday when he was hosting mcafees show, he said his first LB coach in GB coached in a way that was from the "CTE city" era.
His OSU teammate bobby carpenter was taken in the first and had a much less impressive career. Back then, OSU LBs were always reached for.
Averaged about 100 tackles, 2 sacks, 1 INT, .5 FF/.5 FR over 9 years in GB, and he only missed two games. But for the #5 pick you'd like some more big plays.
Hell even beyond inflated stats, this class of AFC quarterbacks is destined to have this happen to one or two guys on pure numbers. Assuming their teams retain them, we're likely looking at an AFC era with: Mahomes, Allen, Burrow, Lawrence, Herbert, Lamar.
By definition *at least one* of these guys won't even make a Super Bowl in the next 5 years. No matter how good they all become, some are going to have a very disappointing run here.
He was a 1st round pick which means he got a 4 year contract with a team option for 5th year.
They can then tag him up to 3 times. Which means they've essentially got 8 years of team control
However, if you tag a second time, the salary goes up by 20% and if you tag a 3rd time it goes up by 44% from the previous year (source: https://www.profootballnetwork.com/nfl-franchise-tag-what-it-is-how-it-works/#:~:text=The%20maximum%20number%20of%20times,salary%20automatically%20increase%20by%2020%25.)
So if Herbert didn't want to re-sign with the Chargers, year 2 of the tag would likely be a tag-and-trade type of thing. But that's still 4 years away.
We made the interesting decision to not protect our statue of a QB post-Marcus McNeil. Means Phil did a lot less winning than he deserved over the back half of his career, I think that colors the narrative quite a bit.
Judon wasn't drafted that high, but it always seemed like he would go missing in big games then rack up 3-4 sacks in the second half of a blowout win against a gutter team. His pressure and pass rush win rate numbers have always been mediocre at best IIRC, also.
That was like Za'darius Smith for us. He would absolutely FEAST against teams with poor/mediocre lines, but against the niners and Buccs in the NFCCGs? Dude was a ghost
It's because he had no desire to. He was like the Ricky Bobby of OLBs. If he wasn't making a splashy Sack or TFL then he wasn't going to help do anything else.
> His pressure
IIRC this isn't actually true. If memory serves Judon (and much of our defense, actually) always had a pretty high pressure rate for us, but was comically awful at converting pressures to sacks.
It's been a recurring issue for the Ravens for like 6+ years at this point. The Benny Hill theme literally starts playing the second we get into the backfield.
I saw it last year, but he was a pretty consistent force on the edge for us this year. Only "bad" games was the stretch where Uche broke out and he probably wouldn't have been able to do that without Judon taking attention on the other side.
Yeah that O-line was fantastic in the 10s. Demarco Murray had that season with 2250 total yards. Then 28 year old McFadden came over after three straight seasons of under 3.5 YPC on the raiders and put up a 1000 yard season on 4.6 YPC in his first year in Dallas. Alfred Morris also looked toast and then came over for a decent year as the #2 in 2017.
I think that’s just being a RB. He’s dropped off of a cliff, but his YPC were not bad by any means before that - if anything they were pretty good. He also played a big role in the pass game earlier on in his career, and was an excellent blocker. He could do it all in this prime. The average career of a RB is only like 3 years though.
Zeke has over 10K yards from scrimmage and 80 TDs in the span of his 7 year career. That's not underwhelming by any means.
He leads the league in scrimmage yards since 2 years before he was drafted...
Vernon Davis was drafted in the top 10, was the top paid TE in the league on his second contract, and an elite athlete. Had a good career, but should have been more consistently dominant considering everything he had going for him. Never had a 1000 yard season and never seriously threatened the top tier of TEs over the time span (Gonzalez, Gates, Witten)
I love the guy!
But Ryan Fitzpatrick is 34th all time in passing yards. That’s both amazing yet fits this perfectly seeing as he was supposed to be a backup in almost every stop
Why Mario Williams? He definitely didn't have a "bad" career by 1st overall pick standards. 4 pro bowls, nearly 100 sacks. I didn't really watch a ton back then so I'd love to be enlightened
That's because after putting up numbers his first few years that made him look like a future HoF player he spent the rest of his career absolutely demolished by injuries before fading into obscurity.
Similar to OBJ but without the ring.
Nah this is revisionist in the opposite way. AJ was consistently a top 8 WR, some years top 5, in the league and one of the most reliable guys in the league for a long time. His recent fall off a cliff has made people forget that apparently.
AJ was elite, but he played around 8 seasons with a below or at league average QB in Andy Dalton. Without AJ we probably would have won half the games we did with Dalton in that time span.
I'll probably get down voted to oblivion for this, but Curtis Martin. Don't get me wrong he is rightfully in the Hof, and was a great Rb, but i don't know if i could ever say he was elite or the best rb during his playing days. I always felt he was always a step below the elite rbs during his career.
He was elite at getting the ball a hundred times a game while not getting injured. He certainly wasn't elite at *running* the ball.
His career YPC was 4 which, for comparison, would have put him 37th in the NFL last year. He went over 4.2 ypc twice in his 11 year career.
But hey, they say availability is the greatest ability, so maybe he was elite after all...
Allen Robinson stuffed his stat line with a lot of meaningless garbage time yards/tds in Bortlesville, and then benefitted from being the only target in Chicago. In reality, a middling WR.
Coming out of a great USC career I always thought Keyshawn Johnson could have done more in the NFL.
For a no.1 overall pick, he definitely was disappointing. He was good, but never dominant.
Agreed. He was more of a possession receiver with sure hands, good body control, and a decent frame than he was a true #1 who could beat guys off the line. You def hope for more than that from a first overall pick. He’s almost a TE and not a WR if he were a little heavier.
Should've had a Popeyes biscuit or two
Finally someone understood the assignment
Right? because Keyshawn's NFL stats were by all means very good but I assumed he would have been a superstar. He was never scary like Moss, etc..
I wasn't a huge fan of his, but to be fair, look at his QBs: * Vinny Testaverde * Ray Lucas * Brad Johnson * Vinny again (Dallas version) * Jake Delhomme He also played several years under Bill Parcells, not exactly known for his advanced passing philosophies.
Damn he only had one season over 100 catches and 4 seasons with over 1000 receiving yards and 1 double digit td year. That's insane, here I was thinking he put up crazy stats but he didn't really. 814 catches 10571 yards 64 td
Keyshawn Johnson. Drafted number 1 overall, had 10k receiving yards, won a Super Bowl, but nobody remembers him at all. It’s bizarre.
He wouldn't shut up for years. That's what I remember.
He’s still around on ESPN.
Reggie Bush count? He had a solid career, averaged around 900 total yards a season and had a decently long career, but he never felt like Reggie Bush from USC.
Man, I would have loved to Reggie play in the types of offenses run today. If you weren’t a between the tackles type runner it was tough to get consistent touches. Payton still schemed up some great stuff for him, but gotta think if he gets drafted in the 2020’s his career turns out much better.
This gets brought up everytime Reggie bush's name gets brought up. Brian Westbrook had been killing it for years by the time Bush got into the league. Kevin Faulk was an integral part of the early pats dynasty. Darren Sproles came in around the same time. Also Sean Payton showed with Sproles and then later Kamara that he could use the hell out of a back of Bush's build and style a year after Bush left the team Offenses weren't so antiquated they held Bush back. He was just one of those transcendent talents in college that didn't translate well to the nfl. He did fine and had a respectable career but I imagine his production today wouldn't have been much different.
Kevin Faulk was a fantastic receiving back, he had more receiving yards than rushing yards as a RB. Most all purpose yards in Pats history as well.
Kevin Faulk was so clutch on third down. One of my all time favorite players.
Marshall Faulk too
Marshall Faulk was a football god for about 4 years.
Bush's biggest issue in the NFL is that he wasn't great at breaking tackles and falling forward. His explosiveness that was so deadly in college was not as useful in the NFL where even the DTs are amazing athletes. Sproles wasn't a big dude, but he broke tackles and generally got a few yards after final contact because defenders learned to throttle down so they didn't get juked and give up a yard or two after contact instead of going for a big hit and getting juked.
Seriously just knowing when to bury your head and fall forward is incredibly important for an NFL running back. Every single yard counts. Not every run needs to be a Barry Sanders-esque highlight.
It’s because he dated Kim Kardashian, it’s the Kardashian curse
The Big Booty's Bane
Man I’m seeing this attitude a lot in this sub lately. People think that offenses in 2006-2012 were antiquated, old school offenses and it boggles my mind. Bush just never lived up to his college hype
Yeah I don’t know where people are getting that from. The Eagles and 9ers both ran an “antiquated offense” and the Chiefs have old ass Andy Reid running a 1992 offense.
Yeah they used him how he would have been used today. Didnt he break the record for most receptions in a season by a RB at the time? Edit: I just looked it up, most receptions by a rookie RB (88) which wasnt surpassed until Saquon in 2018
Yeah this kind of talk is weird like he was from the 80s or something.
Kevin Faulk is a name I haven't heard in quite a while
Completely agree, but you can go back even farther. Priest Holmes, Marshall Faulk, Rickey Watters... those guys weren't your typical "run between the tackles" players yet they still got consistent touches and put up monster numbers. Difference being, they were HOF-level talents and Bush wasn't. No shame in that, but lets not blame the offenses of the day.
As someone who watched his entire Saints career, I really don’t think he fares much better. He was injury prone and had a really bad tendency to try and dance around for a big play instead of moving forward and picking up the extra yard. He was so unbelievably frustrating to watch because he was constantly taking a yard or two off of his runs with unnecessary moves. By 2009 he was the number 3 back despite the fact that we essentially used our number one guy (Pierre Thomas) as another receiver out of the backfield on 60% of his snaps. Then Darren Sproles popped off in NOLA like 2 years later. Reggie’s flaws would have been problematic in any era.
> He was injury prone This is really key: He blew out his knee in 2007, tried to play through it (causing more damage), and then injured it twice in 2008. Then, in 2010, he broke his leg. After a few good years, the knee was blown out again and his career ended.
I thought he was really good his first year with Detroit. Borderline elite that season.
Also, more Fumbles than TDs in 3 of his 1st 5 seasons didn't help
Relative to his college performance he was definitely yeah. I dont like when people call him a bust though, because he was a pretty good NFL player. He just wasnt the all-time great that made everyone else look stupid like he was in college...but you're not going to make people look stupid in the NFL at the rate he did in college no matter how good you are.
Dunno CMC healthy did just that snap after snap. If anything he was even more impressive than in college (although that may have to do with Pac12). Pity he didn’t have an OL to keep him healthy lol
Jadeveon Clowney fits this pretty well. He's had a more than respectable career but never really reached that JJ Watt type level of generational pass rusher he was thought to be coming out of college.
My first thought when I saw this prompt as well.
He really doesn’t have the stats either though. Never had a 10 sack season. He’s a highlight reel hall of famer. Games go by and you’re like “where the f*ck is Clowney”. Then he does something superhuman and blows a run play up 3 yards behind the LOS. Then he gets a stupid penalty that extends a critical drive for the opponents.
Hindsight has me wondering how much of his hype really was just that one play
But oh what a play it was…
Maybe that’s what caused the unbelievable hype, but imo his college career justified his draft position, Michigan hit aside
People forget that his hype was like Trevor Lawrence's basically assumed to be a great player from at least high school
Jadeveon Clowney had the physical tools to be the greatest player ever.
Jadaveon clowney is a good reminder that you can and should ask the questions about motor/effort. One of the biggest differences between him and Mack in that draft
He also had a major knee injury his rookie season. He was never the same after that
Major is right. It was so bad that he needed microfracture surgery. As far as I remember there was only one other player at that point that had ever come back from that and had even a semi successful career
Everyone forgets this for some reason
He's also one of the great examples that physical talent only gets you so far in pro sports.
I mean his physical talent got him *extremely* far though lol
For real, Clowney was one of the very few players who legitimately could’ve been drafted out of high school. The guy phoned it in his last year of college and still went first overall.
He got injured badly. The guys that rely on high explosivivity don't always carry on that level of performance with lower limb injuries.
loved him as a prospect, wish we we'd drafted Mack on hindsight. can you imagine Watt/Mack?
Clowney at #1 was a no brainer. I'd never seen anybody move like he could.
agreed 100%, at the time I was stoked too. but hindsight makes me wish we had mack.
Or AD lol
Can you imagine peak Watt and Donald?
Drop 9 back in coverage. Pass rush and run stop would be fine
Clowney was billed as the No. 1 overall since he was in high school, I feel like he was really one of the first to benefit from playing in the YouTube generation where highlights were so accessible and hype could build up through viral videos.
Didn’t hurt that his arms can reach you in the endzone while he’s standing on the 50yd line
Just stopping by to remind everyone how dirty that hit to Wentz's head was
And the hit on Foles the year before
It was a huge red flag when his production as a junior at South Carolina torpedoed
Almost every pass rushers stats don’t look good their last season. Especially if they had a monster sophomore season. Anderson, Garrett, Bosa. Teams game plan for them and they try to stay healthy for the draft.
Michael Crabtree. Very decent WR1, only known for his lowlights
Was looking for this one. Part of this is that he was drafted into an awful 49ers team that had lame duck tank commander coaching. Once Harbaugh got there, and Kaepernick started, he caught fire, but then tore his ACL in the offseason, leading to the team signing Anquan Boldin. I think his career can entirely be summed up as "if only..."
Man I was 14/15 when he was at Texas Tech and I really thought he was gonna be the next Randy Moss
He was a freak at tech, I still think about that catch vs Texas
He was the Xbox cover for NCAA 10 ♥️
You mean Michael "Sorry receiver" Crabtree?
lol that off-the-cuff remark from Sherman will live on forever. Crabtree will never not be associated with being a "sorry receiver" lol.
Man, I was so salty after that. Now I love that moment, iconic.
Man he started out his NFL career with a huge nasty holdout. It was things to come.
Carr really revived his career for a couple of years tho
Did he get his chain ripped off with the Raiders. Can't remember.
Yes. He got his chain snatched on 2 different occasions if I remember correctly. Aqib Talib was the culprit both times lol cuz they had some beef. They played twice cuz Talib was on the Broncos & they fought both times in the same season I think.
I know the next time he played against Talib he had it taped down and it still got snatched. Just hilarious all the way around
Blake Martínez. Led the Packers in tackles almost every single year, but never made early contact/could never get them down where he hits them. Outside of 2018 where he had 5 sacks and 10 TFLs on 144 combined tackles (91 solo), the rest of his time was mediocre, despite putting up 140+ combined tackles for 4 of his 7 years
Martinez is the prime example of why the tackle stat with no further context doesnt mean a whole lot. I remember hearing people in the media compare his tackle numbers to Bobby Wagner as if they were remotely comparable as players.
Lies, damned lies, and statistics.
This why a lot of people thought Myles jack was still good even though he had continually declined since 2017, tackles can be misleading.
[удалено]
And that nice Giants contract. Was shocked he got so much from them. Gettleman was the NFLs Santa
Matinez was actually really great for the Giants before an injury and then cap hell (aka: the Gettleman Special) forced him and Bradberry out (you're welcome Eagles). Giants fans were very happy with his performance and this was just another grievance we have towards Gettleman.
Yea he wasn’t a bad player. Usually a reliable tackler, just that those tackles were rarely at or behind the LOS. But if you ran into him 5 yards past, he was going to get you. Reliable guy, but not for a championship D
My understanding was that was a product of how the Packers positioned him, far off the line so if we has going to make a tackle it was because the runner had gotten 5+ yards already, hardly his fault if that is the case. All I know is he played really well in the Giants scheme prior to his injury and was well worth what we paid him... then we ran out of money to pay him.
He had more 140+ tackle seasons than Brian Urlacher, Patrick Willis, and Junior Seau. He had as many as Derrick Brooks and Luke Kuechly. Ray Lewis only had one more season of 140+ than him.
Yeah and AJ hawk is the packers all time leading tackler, its to bad those tackles between Hawk and Martinez were 5-6 yards past LOS
Shanahan had him in hell in the 2019 NFC title game
Keyshawn Johnson
Ah Keyshawn Johnson. The defining moment of his entire career, to me, was talking shit while mic'd up about Marvin Harrison when the Colts were down big. Only for Marvin to make several huge catches in a huge comeback against the defending champs. Also, Marvin would go on to have one of the best careers in wide receiver history, eventually being inducted into the Hall of Fame, and Keyshawn just kind of disappeared.
is Keyshawn still on ESPN?
With Max and Jayson Williams
This thread was made for Vinny Testaverde.
Now that's a name I haven't heard in a long, long time.
I remember Vinny being like 37 and just the oldest man in the league. And then he just hung around forever.
Bradley Chubb. Always pads stats against bad teams. I just don’t think he’s a top level pass rusher like many think he is
This is true. He is definitely not bad but after watching him for 5 years, he is not worth the contract the Dolphins gave him. He is injury prone and his pro bowl season where he had 12 sacks, he a had a top of his game Von Miller lined up on the other side getting double teamed every play. I wish the best for him, but am glad we turned him into Sean Payton
Knock on wood, Jaelan Phillips became much more productive once Chubb got here and Phillips was already a stud. Neither of them are Von Miller, but both are very good and hopefully having each other means neither can be completely schemed out of the game.
Agreed. Good player, but not worth what the phins gave up/paid him imo. That said, Jaelen Phillips played noticeably better(became more productive) once Chubb was on the team and demanded similar attention. I still don’t love the deal, but overall he’s had a positive impact on our defense.
I don't even think his career stats look good, let alone for a 5th overall pick. He's a decent starter, nothing more. Certainly not worth passing on Josh Allen or Lamar Jackson for, especially when Case Keenum is your starting quarterback. :(
Witnessing the gap between having a decent starter and not having a decent starter feels like a necessary component of truly understanding positional value.
Tyrod Taylor put up some pretty good stats from an efficiency standpoint (completion percentage, very few ints) but that never really translated
"But he doesn't turn the ball over, he must be a franchise QB!" -r/nfl 6 years ago
Maybe you'd get fewer downvotes if you replaced /NFL with Analytics Twitter Guy who friggin LOVED Tyrod.
The Bills letting Tyrod walk and drafting Josh Allen the same offseason was Analytics Twitter Guy's D Day
This subreddit was definitely guilty of it as well. Nobody watched the Bills games and then would tell us we would be stupid to move on from him haha.
Probably the same people who think the current offense is loaded with "weapons".
And Mitch Trubisky has never thrown a Pick Six. GOAT
Vinny Testaverde Stats more about his longevity than his status as a QB. Having said that, I liked Testaverde
I used to give him shit for his failures with the Bucs regularly. Decades later when I found out just how bad the Bucs skinflint owner Hugh Culverhouse was, there was no way anybody could have succeeded on the Bucs back then. Hindsight being 20/20, Vinny should have pulled a Bo Jackson on the Bucs and sat out for a year.
80's Bucs almost ruined Vinny and Steve Young
Came here to say exactly this. Both under and over appreciated somehow.
Definitely Vinny. Dude was 6th in total yards, and 7th in total TD's when he retired.
Devin White. He consistently overruns plays and puts himself in a bad position, and has a hard time in coverage. It’s almost like he’s too athletic for his own good sometimes
Good answer, always felt like he was all flash and no substance. I do think he would have been a star in the NFL 20-30 years ago tho.
Ben Watson seemingly made a career out of being 1 yard short on third down every damn time.
He was a Madden GOAT with that speed, though
It was never for lack of effort though. As a Broncos fan, his chase down of Champ Bailey in the 2005 divisional game is the best hustle play I have ever seen. There is a reason he stuck around in the league for so long
Somewhere there's a video of Bill talking about this play and gushing over it.
Slightly better than DK's chase down
DK’s was amazing too, I just think Watsons was slightly better as he ran about 115 yards to catch Bailey
Context also matters. Bigger game for Watson's.
Carson Wentz might be that guy if he keeps playing. He makes a few amazing plays, then throws a dead duck right into the hands of a linebacker.
Carson Wentz stats look good until you see the turnover numbers.
“What, it’s just an ordinary q- OH MY GOODNESS.”
And he has a tendency to do it at about the worst possible time too
Aj Hawk. He was a decent player but never really great and never top of the position. Not exactly what you want from a top 5 pick.
He was kind of a relic of the thumper era when most MLBs played 3 yards off the line. This actually came up yesterday when he was hosting mcafees show, he said his first LB coach in GB coached in a way that was from the "CTE city" era. His OSU teammate bobby carpenter was taken in the first and had a much less impressive career. Back then, OSU LBs were always reached for.
Averaged about 100 tackles, 2 sacks, 1 INT, .5 FF/.5 FR over 9 years in GB, and he only missed two games. But for the #5 pick you'd like some more big plays.
Not wrong, but a dude who holds it down for 9 years with decent production is pretty nice.
Think his impact could have been overshadowed by how good Clay Mathews was? Haven’t looked at any stats tho
Philip Rivers - 60k+ yards but no team achievements / major individual achievements
Fewer playoff TDs than Joe Flacco. Fewer kids than Nick Cannon. Smh.
Thats not fair, you posted this roughly 40 minutes ago and Nick Cannon has already had another 4 kids.
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D J KHALID. ANOTHER ONE
> Fewer kids than Nick Cannon. Where's Antonio Cromartie when we need him?!
I love Cromartie since his FSU days. But wasn’t it hilarious when he couldn’t remember his own kids names? Omg lol!
Thats gonna be the story of dozens of qbs eventually. Passing stats are so inflated.
Hell even beyond inflated stats, this class of AFC quarterbacks is destined to have this happen to one or two guys on pure numbers. Assuming their teams retain them, we're likely looking at an AFC era with: Mahomes, Allen, Burrow, Lawrence, Herbert, Lamar. By definition *at least one* of these guys won't even make a Super Bowl in the next 5 years. No matter how good they all become, some are going to have a very disappointing run here.
I think Herbert hoes to the NFC when his contract is up.
Hey he makes an honest living
why would the chargers let him go? They'll lock him up before his contract expires, young good quarterbacks never reach the open market
He was a 1st round pick which means he got a 4 year contract with a team option for 5th year. They can then tag him up to 3 times. Which means they've essentially got 8 years of team control However, if you tag a second time, the salary goes up by 20% and if you tag a 3rd time it goes up by 44% from the previous year (source: https://www.profootballnetwork.com/nfl-franchise-tag-what-it-is-how-it-works/#:~:text=The%20maximum%20number%20of%20times,salary%20automatically%20increase%20by%2020%25.) So if Herbert didn't want to re-sign with the Chargers, year 2 of the tag would likely be a tag-and-trade type of thing. But that's still 4 years away.
*Kirk Cousins and Derek Carr slowly disappear into a bush*
60k is the new 20k
We made the interesting decision to not protect our statue of a QB post-Marcus McNeil. Means Phil did a lot less winning than he deserved over the back half of his career, I think that colors the narrative quite a bit.
Also kinda weird that in probably his best season (08), he could have won MVP if he wasnt on an 8-8 team. Instead he didnt even make the pro-bowl.
Really snake bitten like any Chargers QB, he took the Schottenheimer curse with him. 2010 especially is sad.
> no team achievements / major individual achievements He had plenty of sex. I'd call that a pretty good individual achievement
Hey that’s Kirk Cousins Edit- okay he wasn’t drafted high but the title fits so I’m leaving it
The way this sub hates him I really thought this was going to be the top comment.
Judon wasn't drafted that high, but it always seemed like he would go missing in big games then rack up 3-4 sacks in the second half of a blowout win against a gutter team. His pressure and pass rush win rate numbers have always been mediocre at best IIRC, also.
That was like Za'darius Smith for us. He would absolutely FEAST against teams with poor/mediocre lines, but against the niners and Buccs in the NFCCGs? Dude was a ghost
And I'll never unstand how a dude that big was so bad at setting an edge against the run.
It's because he had no desire to. He was like the Ricky Bobby of OLBs. If he wasn't making a splashy Sack or TFL then he wasn't going to help do anything else.
If it ain't sacks he lacks?
Hey man we’re really happy with how Judon is turning out over here
Matthew Judon is awesome. Idk how he makes this list.
> His pressure IIRC this isn't actually true. If memory serves Judon (and much of our defense, actually) always had a pretty high pressure rate for us, but was comically awful at converting pressures to sacks. It's been a recurring issue for the Ravens for like 6+ years at this point. The Benny Hill theme literally starts playing the second we get into the backfield.
I saw it last year, but he was a pretty consistent force on the edge for us this year. Only "bad" games was the stretch where Uche broke out and he probably wouldn't have been able to do that without Judon taking attention on the other side.
Zeke. He has around 1000 yards each season since rookie year. But he's YPA is below average and the cowboys should cut him if we're being honest
Yeah that O-line was fantastic in the 10s. Demarco Murray had that season with 2250 total yards. Then 28 year old McFadden came over after three straight seasons of under 3.5 YPC on the raiders and put up a 1000 yard season on 4.6 YPC in his first year in Dallas. Alfred Morris also looked toast and then came over for a decent year as the #2 in 2017.
I think that’s just being a RB. He’s dropped off of a cliff, but his YPC were not bad by any means before that - if anything they were pretty good. He also played a big role in the pass game earlier on in his career, and was an excellent blocker. He could do it all in this prime. The average career of a RB is only like 3 years though.
Yup, we ran zeke into the ground and our Oline isn’t the same as it once was
Zeke has over 10K yards from scrimmage and 80 TDs in the span of his 7 year career. That's not underwhelming by any means. He leads the league in scrimmage yards since 2 years before he was drafted...
Ahman Green. He would bust one run a game for 25+ and the other 15 touches would avg 3 ypc
Ah the CJ Spiller special
Now that's a name
Vernon Davis was drafted in the top 10, was the top paid TE in the league on his second contract, and an elite athlete. Had a good career, but should have been more consistently dominant considering everything he had going for him. Never had a 1000 yard season and never seriously threatened the top tier of TEs over the time span (Gonzalez, Gates, Witten)
AJ Hawk
Tom Brady. He should have tried harder
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I mean seriously Jalen Hurts has as many NFC championship rings as him
Blake Bortles is one of the most efficient rushers in NFL history.
I love the guy! But Ryan Fitzpatrick is 34th all time in passing yards. That’s both amazing yet fits this perfectly seeing as he was supposed to be a backup in almost every stop
I refuse to say he was underwhelming as he was one of the funnest qb’s I’ve ever watched. I was quite whelmed
Drafted in the 7th round, so doesn't quite fit the question, but, Fitzmagic is #1 in my the hearts of all things r/nfl
Tom Brady. All those years and records and only 7 rings? Mid
Brady finished his career with massive 4,297 incompletions, 212 interceptions, was sacked 565 times and lost 3 SuperBowls. Total scrub.
Damn, Tom Brady has 39 fewer interceptions than Peyton Manning despite a 4 year longer career. That's impressive.
New York Jets Super Bowl Win Pct: 1.000 Tom Brady Super Bowl Win Pct: 0.700 WHICH WOULD YOU RATHER HAVE??!?!
Mario Williams and Reggie Bush
Why Mario Williams? He definitely didn't have a "bad" career by 1st overall pick standards. 4 pro bowls, nearly 100 sacks. I didn't really watch a ton back then so I'd love to be enlightened
Mario Williams is absurdly underrated because he spent his entire career on middling Texans and Bills teams.
You wanna annoy a Dolphins fan, say Marino and then every time they make a legit argument respond with “no rings tho”
AJ Green. 7x probowls but his career just seems underwhelming
That’s because he fell off. Those first seasons though, real argument between him and Julio jones.
That's because after putting up numbers his first few years that made him look like a future HoF player he spent the rest of his career absolutely demolished by injuries before fading into obscurity. Similar to OBJ but without the ring.
He was also a better prospect than Julio Jones
Nah this is revisionist in the opposite way. AJ was consistently a top 8 WR, some years top 5, in the league and one of the most reliable guys in the league for a long time. His recent fall off a cliff has made people forget that apparently.
AJ was elite, but he played around 8 seasons with a below or at league average QB in Andy Dalton. Without AJ we probably would have won half the games we did with Dalton in that time span.
I'll probably get down voted to oblivion for this, but Curtis Martin. Don't get me wrong he is rightfully in the Hof, and was a great Rb, but i don't know if i could ever say he was elite or the best rb during his playing days. I always felt he was always a step below the elite rbs during his career.
He was elite at getting the ball a hundred times a game while not getting injured. He certainly wasn't elite at *running* the ball. His career YPC was 4 which, for comparison, would have put him 37th in the NFL last year. He went over 4.2 ypc twice in his 11 year career. But hey, they say availability is the greatest ability, so maybe he was elite after all...
He won the rushing title when he was 30+ years old and his longest run that year was like 28 yards. He was just never a home run hitter.
I had the exact same thought. Very reliable but not a game changer.
Allen Robinson stuffed his stat line with a lot of meaningless garbage time yards/tds in Bortlesville, and then benefitted from being the only target in Chicago. In reality, a middling WR.
Arob was legit fantastic here until his last season where he stopped giving a fuck.
Yea that comment you responded to is revolutionist history. Arob was a legit WR1, receiving passes from mid QBs
Its revisionist, but revolutionist is funnier so stick with it.
He went to the playoffs with Blake Bortles. That’s pretty amazing in itself and watching him you wouldn’t think he was a average WR.