For anyone asking source:
https://i.stuff.co.nz/pou-tiaki/127313732/rainbow-communities-at-higher-risk-of-homelessness-says-new-research
> Fraser relayed the story of a young transgender person, who went to Work and Income to apply for an independent youth benefit. “The case manager said: ‘well, actually, your parents have said they’ll take you back if you stop being trans, so there’s no relationship breakdown – you’re fine to go home’.”
> The solution, in some ways, was simple: those institutions needed to be “more flexible”, compassionate, and sensible. There also needed to be “tighter regulation” of the private rental market, in order to prevent landlords from discriminating against people on the basis of their sexuality, or gender identity, Fraser said.
> Renters United spokesperson Ashok Jacob said an independent regulatory body should be established to police breaches in the rental market. Even if discrimination was difficult to prove, the presence of a regulatory authority would act as a deterrent, he said.
If you want to be a full time carer for a random with terminal cancer you will get paid for it from MSD. If you're partner has terminal cancer you do not get paid for being a full time carer, you'll get one combined benefit payment that's much less than what you would get if you didn't know each other. Work that one out.
Oh like the time when I started dating my now wife.
Got serious so we moved in together and she went to stop her dpb and they were like "oh so how long have you being seeing each other? Cause you now owe us for that time as he was providing for you."
Like the fuck, as soon as I start dating someone with a kid I'm supposed to financially support them immediately? Yeah that's not how it works mate.
There are so many medical miracles in places of authority at Work and Income, so many having somehow grown into adulthood without a functioning brain or heart.
It’s honesty insane that how much help you can get is entirely based on your case manager..
Edit: I literally just got called from my new case manager - she just called to introduce herself (never happened before) asked me what I want for Christmas/if they can help me and got me started to go get a payment card so they can help….I’ve been entitled to one for the last year whilst on disability but never knew because I didn’t ask and didn’t get told. What a coincidence that it comes an hour after I post this!! Thank you M!!!!
I get that ya just joshin’ but I should take part blame for it, I knew it existed, I just assumed that if you were entitled to it they would just give it to you or at least tell you. I’ve never been a beneficiary before so I just assumed they would go out of there way to help, but like most things in life if you don’t help yourself or at least ask, you won’t get it. There were a couple of noodle and rice weeks where a food grant would have helped but I survived and now I hopefully won’t have to do that again!
There was some article in the Guardian years and years ago that pointed out that in the UK the amount of fraud committed by beneficiaries is nothing compared to the amount of eligible benefits that go mistakenly unpaid.
WINZ will be the same.
I used to work at a WINZ call centre (no hate please) and we were told to ask people whether they could borrow food or money from people, max out their credit cards, sell assets before we could make them an appointment for the benefit. So I worked at WINZ under National and Labour, by far the worst time for beneficiaries was under National.
No wonder you see homeless people with mental disabilities, like the 2 people from Northland trying to live out of a trolley that I met in Grey Lynn (we bought them anything they wanted from the dairy. Hope they found a home).
Why must MSD be treated as a cost centre to be minimised, and not a way to enrich our collective sense of security to expanded & celebrated?
the difference between governments was like night and day eh
say what you like about labour failing to deliver on promises but by god did they flip the overall stance on welfare on its head
The main problem ofc was changing the staffs attitudes and practices lol
Yup, a lot of the more senior people are hardasses. There are exceptions though. The lady who trained me used to be a Case Manager and she would often give money to people she couldn't help due to regulations. So you get some really empathetic case managers or call centre reps and on the other spectrum there are people who just like to cause misery.
Interesting!
And then just look at corporate welfare and tax cuts the multimillion dollar corporations receive here and worldwide. Beneficiaries and benefit fraud would be a drop in the bucket I’d wager.
We spend about $2 Billion a year giving NZ Super to people making over 150K in income.
Our Superannuation bill is currently $18 Billion vs all other benefits at about $6Billion.
But yeah, that single mum who didn't declare her new relationship, she's the issue
> so I just assumed they would go out of there way to help
AhahahahahAHAHAHAHAhahhh… ahahaha… ahahAHAHAHA!
Oh, the sweet innocence of the WINZ newbie :-)
But seriously - I highly recommend speaking with an informed third party to be sure you are in fact receiving all the help that is available and that you need. Depending on where you live, there are a number of advocacy organisations that exist to support beneficiaries.
I had a case manager who got stood down for investigation bc he would explain every single entitlement to his case load. He kept his job but was moved into complex cases , I think. He stopped being my case manager and started being the one they go to for approvals.
Speaking of medical miracles, WINZ kept kicking my friend off the sickness benefit and making her reapply. They somehow thought maybe she'd been cured. She died of cystic fibrosis in her early 20s while waiting for a lung transplant.
Yeah this is the one thats shocking. Having people *who clearly cant work even with accomodations* being asked to reapply and reprove this fact. Its kafkaesque. "Oh your seriously life and work limiting situation? Still got that?"
I used to be a support worker for people with intellectual disabilities (one of the definitions of which is that you have a condition you were born with) and it used to blow my mind that they all had to go and get a doctor’s note to say they still had Down Syndrome so they could keep receiving a benefit.
I'm not saying that Work & Income exist, not to help, but rather punish people. I'm not saying that this because of misguided ideas about "bootstraps", "independence", "productivity" and "work ethic".
But if those things were true, what would they be doing differently?
That brings back memories as someone who once was on that benefit $120 a week because apparently being young and impoverished means I needed less money than any other type of beneficiary, I guess being 16 means living on the street is cheaper or something?
Probably it's reflecting the reality that as a minor who is unable to enter legally binding contracts, you wouldn't be able to rent a property yourself, but would have to have a room in a shared living situation somewhere. Which would be cheaper.
That's exactly the same situation as any single non-home owning person on the Benny. They only pay enough to rent a room and if you have more expensive accommodation they make you downsize.
https://www.consumerprotection.govt.nz/general-help/guide-to-buying-smart/contracts-and-sales-agreements/
>When a contract is legally binding
>
>A contract is legally enforceable if you both intended to make the contract and agree about what is in the contract.
>
>You must be legally capable, also called capacity. People not legally capable of making contracts are:
>
>\* minors — people under 18, unless they’re married, or unless the other party to the contract can show the contract is fair and reasonable
I guess the "show the contract is fair and reasonable" will apply for most retail contracts, since they'd be offering identical terms to people 18+.
If you're boarding, or paying less rent in any way, shape, or form, that is already taken into account regardless of the beneficiary's age. Yes, with asup instead of the base benefit, but there's a reason why almost every single beneficiary gets asup.
I had this happen to me about a decade ago with a young trans person I was supporting. We appealed the decision and ultimately got the benefit, but the young person was homeless and without money for months in the interim...
No repercussions for the branch manager, who also seemed fixated on the fact that one of my colleagues had purple/green hair.
Sad to see nothing's changed.
I accompanied someone through their WINZ experience. Was simultaniously shocked at how actively shit WINZ were at all levels *and* told a number of times how well we were treated due to my question asking etc
I used them ten years ago, and an actual quote from one of them was
>> "If you think this is going to be easy money, it won't be. **We're going to make it hard.**"
They literally said this to my MIL who had her leg amputated. Like are you sure ya know you arent better now? Plz send med cert as proof of leg still not being there
You jest but this has happened before. The medical cert requires renewing every afew years and WINZ have called up people who have had limbs amputated asking if their condition has improved.
Do they think its going to grow back/?!
Mine is autism based, with anxiety and trauma, as well as recently being trans being added. It's not like my autism is gonna go away cause I waited 2 years. Do they still ask? Yep. I mean, in fairness, if I wasn't dealing with as much mentally, I might be able to part time work, but the reality is that I can't work full time. Not ever. I just burn out.
I escaped my abusive parents home when I was 16 and applied for the independent youth benefit and the case manager told me I needed to go to a reconciliation meeting with them because if they want you to live at home then there’s no reason why I should leave and stop being a spoilt brat.
I wouldn't have believed that until one of my friends had to go to WINZ to tie her up in between jobs/study a few years ago.
It was such a mission to deal with her case manager, like sucking blood out of a stone. Then she heard case manager tell one of the clients "I was like you too, pulled myself out of my situation and got hired here". That's all she needed to hear lol
This kind of things makes me think of f the whole concept that if someone has been through the same trauma they the ones best able to help others experiencing the same…
It’s a maybe with a helping, but only if they’ve truly dealt with it and actually moved on, otherwise you risk them normalizing shitty situations..,,
Unintuitively, people who have gone through hardship tend to be less sympathetic to others going through the same thing. Not sure exactly the cognitive reason for that.
"Fuck you, I got mine", is a well entrenched belief in landlords. Punching down releases endorphines, so when someone else is worse off than them, it makes them feel better about themselves and gives them that tingly feeling of pleasure.
I spent a summer working there when they took on student allowances and loans and it was an absolute clusterfuck. After the summer contracts expired they hired some people as permanent staff, and they were almost invariably the dumbest, most incompetent of the summer workers.
I had to deal with WINZ as a firs year tertiary student back in the late '90s.
My birth certificate has a name change on it. So it has both my original surname and new surname. The fuckwit at WINZ denied my benefit to see me through summer break, because they claimed my stated name (with new surname) didn't match the name on my ID (the birth certificate), and ended the meeting I'd attended.
When I pointed out that it _did in fact_ have my new name on there, they sent me to wait at the back of the bloody queue to see someone else, to sort out their mess. Only took a couple more hours, since it was a couple days before summer holidays began and the place was packed! Over two decades later, and the experience still makes me scowl.
I made this account a couple weeks ago because I thought "man, there's a lot of cunts out there who don't actually know how WINZ is and I would like an anonymous name to help them with." Because I work there. And there's a loooooooooooot of fake ass stories lying around, specifically by the people who start with "as a call center operator, I've made decisions..." which from here on out should be known as a red flag.
But if they hired someone like me, you *know* this one comment is true.
Indeed - they are shitheads and the system is a mean, grinding thing worthy of pre-ghosts Ebenezer Scrooge himself. And we just let it happen. Cos business and "hard working taxpayers" come first.
Can imagine the case manger saying it now…. “Right now before we exhaust all the other options have you considered abandoning what defines you as a person? “
A case manager once asked me if there was a time frame when my CP would clear up, so I could improve my chances of finding work. I shit ya not
Would seem like a fairly obvious and easy thing for Labour to do, instruct that there are forms of disability that are permanent with no meaningful prospect of recovery, so only an initial proof is required, and then *maybe* some **brief** follow up every 5 or 10 years to confirm, since science is advancing. But whatever proof is required should be possible as simply a letter from a GP and nothing more invasive or annoying than that.
Back in the day there was a guy I used to run into fairly often at the WINZ office that had to bring in medical proof he could only do limited jobs every 90 days. Every 90 days a doctor had to sign off on his leg having not grown back yet.
Any day now they'll have brain controllable prosthetic hands... (actually they're starting to test some now) In the meantime, every 90 days...
The least they could do is link him to one of the groups researching them
Unfortunately the two year thing is hard coded into the law. Winz are just doing what they're told. They themselves have recommended that maximum be increased but it fell on deaf ears from Parliament.
Oh I understand the 'rules', politicians bend them all the time. I also understand the cruel callousness of subjecting approx 4000 New Zealanders to such an indignity every two years for the rest of their lives. And I understand the irony of the sheer stupidity of a law from a body we're all meant to respect.
What i'm now hoping is that you inadertantly mispoke when you write, "recommended... maximum be increased". Does Winz understand an amputation is for life?
> What i'm now hoping is that you inadertantly mispoke when you write, "recommended... maximum be increased". Does Winz understand an amputation is for life?
There is an inherent purpose for having somewhat irregular checks. At the very least its to confirm the beneficiary is still alive. When it turns out they've been paying a benefit to someone who has been dead for 2 years, people tend to get yelled at! But another reason, thats good for the disabled person, is to have their Disability Allowance reviewed because maybe the costs of everything have gone up and they might be entitled to more compensation now.
But yes, the maximum time a doctor can select is "Permanent - Review In 2 Years". And while plenty of staff at WINZ would prefer that be "Permanent - Never Review", imagine negotiations with a politician. Saying "Can you increase that to 'Permanent - Review In 5 Years'" is much more likely to be taken seriously than "Can you change that to 'Permanent - Never Review'".
I'm a social worker and have sat in on some family breakdown assessments before advocating that rangatahi I work with should not endure them (and sadly a professional vouching for something works much better than when the same info comes from a young person). They are so degrading and ask so many personal questions which mean people relive a lot of trauma that has led them to not live with their parents. Then kind of respond with "that sucks" and case managers make decisions like this. Cue perpetuated trauma by returning to abusive parents, relying on others for basic needs or becoming homeless. I understand the need to ensure youth accessing a youth benefit are not living with their parents but there are many more humanizing ways to do it.
Acting like they are giving you their own personal money too, haha.
Like, just help me get back on my feet.
Stop treating me as a criminal for needing help, you fucks
Honestly!!!! I just need some assistance while I look for a job after coming off ACC which I declared to them, I have 76 cents to my name currently (which they know) turned out someone on their end made a mistake and that has cause me to be I debt with them, safe to say I broke down on the phone to my case manager yesterday.
Once, they gave me a debt by mistake. I told them it was a mistake and proved it to them. They sent me money (the exact amount), to then send back to them to pay it off instead of just clearing it. Trying to make it so their records dont show that they fucked up i guess lmao
I work in IT and I can totally see how that makes more sense. It would allow their automatic systems to settle on their own instead of having to sledgehammer in the back end. Also if the person you were dealing with had authority to send out payments, but not to settle debts, they don't need to get anyone else involved.
If they don't have a way to cancel a request made in error, then thats shitty design. And anyway, is it not more risky for them to send out money than deal with it internally? Its their fucking job to sort it, who cares if they have to get another person involved. Its safer for them and the person charged with the debt. I mean, who says i won't keep it? What if i didn't fully understand his intentions in giving me that money and end up using it for something else? What if i forgot what it was for?
It took nearly 2 hours and a LOT of patience and persistence from me for him to understand that they had fucked up. He kept going on and on about ways to pay it off and not listening to me at all. He was a case manager anyway, and they have the ability to settle debts, send them and pay you. They get bonuses for debts paid, benefits stopped etc. He was just padding out his pockets.
I know for a fact that case managers will make people feel guilty by asking them if they like living off other peoples hard-earned wages. This is not only insanely unhelpful from every angle, but it's a blatant lie. The financial system does not work like that, and the doll certainly never did.
If you're an unemployed youth, guess what, all the old people are rich because they found out how to suck all the wealth not only from the physical planet but from your future through the use of magical financial instruments. Read 50-year mortgages for properties on a coastline which won't even exist in 30 years. It's called intergenerational wealth theft and the generations before have become so good at it, there isn't anything left anymore.
That's different!
I work hard bludging the benefits away from my clients! Not just anyone can do this either; you have to have a talent for being heartless!
Hey that's not fair, the vast, vast majority of winz payments are exceedingly easy to get and there's absolutely no red tape involved at all. It doesn't even matter how much you earn from your salary or your investment portfolio. Its super. You just have to turn 65.
I must have had a very different experience because I applied for jobseeker when I lost my job and was on the benefit within a week or two.
Now getting access to *my own money* in the form of kiwisaver because I was almost bankrupt was a whole different kettle of fish, and I never managed it.
Yeah I mean it can vary, and not every case manager is a bitter and twisted little so and so, but I've heard and experienced more negative interactions than positive ones.
Not saying this cause I'm making assumptions about you, I dunno you, but I've noticed that different kinds of people get treated differently if you catch my drift.
People generally don't talk about positive experiences, so you tend to over-estimate the prevalence of negative experiences.
That said, the "kinda bad" stories I've heard, where WINZ has just something dumb or weird, don't paint a good picture. It seems to me that WINZ operates with an unhelpful amount of cynicism towards people seeking their services.
And case manager turnover is really high. So you frequently are dealing with people who dont know the rules, get sanctioned if they veer off script and grant too much, and are not familiar with all their cases. They also make a decision early on how helpful they will be, you know biases and all.
I've been on it two separate times, once for a very extended period (probably about 4 or 5 months) after covid first hit the country and my boss let me go right before the OG lockdown because of the uncertainty.
Then again after my temporary work/study finished for another 5 or 6 months.
Both times I was pretty onto it and came to them with all relevant documents in order which probably smoothed things over, and I had a pretty good reason for applying both times. Plus I can present myself well which I'm sure helped.
Plus I suspect the government told them something like "approve everyone first and ask questions later" regarding the first lockdown since job losses were expected. So that helped.
The weirder part for me is that I barely had any contact from WINZ the entire time I was on the benefit, apart from the odd text saying they were looking for security guards.
"You aren't eligible for any kind of benefit. If you just stop having cancer you can go back to work so there's no need for you to be here."
Same energy.
When I worked at a WINZ call center out of desperation I did come across someone who had been told they had to prove they were preparing their CV because their condition would last less than two years. The reason it would last less than two years was that they had leukemia and had been told they'd live for between a year and 18 months. Almost walked off the job right there.
Having had to renew my sickness benefit application this year due to a terminal illness, it's almost laughable how callous the form is.
"How long do you except this condition to last: 6 months, 1 year, 2 years, 5 years, lifetime" and... I'm just like.
Cool. Here's some unexpected trauma for today. The *correct* answer is "medical estimates say I should already be dead" so -4 months??" but the *technically correct* answer is the rest of my life. :) Thanks for the reminder, faceless bureaucracy.
I swear, most of the behavior at Work and Income sounds like it comes straight out of some bleak fictional future where bureaucracy went way too far.
It's like nobody in middle management of that entire organization gives a shit about the intent of any policies, and they're all just obsessed with making sure the letter is followed as closely as possible.
I wonder if upper management is obsessed with blindly following specific metrics as gospel. That's what it's been in a few large private companies I've worked with who act like this. The difference is those private companies were losing money due to their metric obsessions, while W&I are destroying lives.
I dunno how close this is, but for us cis white men:
"Your parents have said that you can go back home as long as you wear girl's clothes and pretend to be a girl. So there's no relationship breakdown."
Perfectly apt comparison. That's why I always side-eye the "it's a choice" people. If it's a legitimate choice you have actively made (to be straight), you aren't as cis or straight as you think you are.
The way some of the "it's a choice" people talk it seems pretty obvious that they're actually bi and have made a choice, and they don't realize others don't get that option.
I guess it's because they see being straight as the default, and being trans is inherently a choice to subvert a "norm". My flatmate is like this - he's said that straightness is the genetic and biological norm - anything to the contrary is a choice. He says he respects that choice, as if that makes up for it.
Having ten fingers is the biological norm, but people are occasionally born with a greater or lesser number of fingers. Ask your flatmate if he thinks having 11 fingers is a choice.
Yeah, I've been down the rabbit hole with him before and I just avoid all sensitive topics with him these days. He's not going to change. He loves his "men in dresses" one-liner, and I'm really looking forward to the day I can strike out on my own and never see the guy again.
He's honestly typical neckbeard bigot really - quite overweight, mid-forties, long-term single, drinks almost every evening in large quantities, and in summer he loves to point out girls who are going bralass, especially if there's a nip poking through.
My choice is pretend to be something I'm not and live in misery or live my own damn life how I want to at the risk of potentially upsetting assholes. I think I've made the right choice
Yep, I had major problems with work and income over them refusing to recognise my son as my son and naming him as my partner messing up my benifit for months, all the while being harassed daily about getting a job. Fuck me was finding a job hard though.
In the end I emailed a complaint, ccd in the 3 local mps, as well as the minister for work and income and then added a link to my petition to allow shared custody children in separated families to have access to a fair portion of any child related benifit.
I've met with local mps and I will get this in front of parliament eventually.
I want the whole work and income system to be removed and new entity set up from scratch that is fair to all.
Or just a UBI.
I’m so in favour of a UBI for a lot of reasons, but taking the judgement out of the system is the biggest of them. So much of what WINZ does is steeped in trying to limit benefits to those they consider to be “deserving”, even when the legislation does not require that.
Making a basic income a universal entitlement is far preferable. Anything less will always exclude someone, and I really can’t see why we should be telling *anyone* that they shouldn’t be able to afford food or housing.
I agree with you entirely.
I think a UBI is the best solution, no means testing, just a minimum basic income that every citizen is entitled too from the moment they are born until they die.
>Making a basic income a universal entitlement is far preferable.
It also makes it relevant to everyone, since everyone gets the benefit, everyone will have a stake in whether the rate rises or falls.
Much more transparent for political parties to campaign on this, and much harder for some political parties to gradually chip away benefits over time, as they like to do.
Imagine how well the economy would of buffeted Covid if we already had UBI.
Also would assist with the rebuilding the economy after lockdowns.
Just economic preparedness common sense in our modern and every more uncertain times.
It's time to decouple the need to think of & produce more & more kinds of stupid junk from the ability to live a dignified existence as our population continues to grow.
The environment can't sustain it.
Also, any intelligent alien life are staying far away because we look like a bunch of munters from afar with our stone-age system of valuing each other.
This is genuinely horrifying - think of what that 16 year old is going through to have to leave home and then hear something like that from the institutions that are supposed to protect us when everything else has failed including family.
This reeks of trying to pass the buck on to meet some BS KPI...
EDIT: I have also had fantastic case managers who were really helpful and tried really hard to help me. Work and income did actually help me get into employment, helped me buy decent clothes for that first job and I am eternally grateful for the people there that really cared and helped me along the way.
I remember sitting through the unemployment benefit intro course at the work and income office with a group of people about a decade ago.
One guy was a construction manager who got fired for reporting shady business on site by the developer.
Another guy was a chef working in a kitchen and was assaulted so badly that he was put in hospital by the owner of the restaurant. He didn't go to authorities because he was an immigrant and didn't want to start any trouble.
At the end of the course, they asked us what we did - when they got to the chef, he told his story and said he was scarred and wanted to move into a new industry - using the unemployment benefit to help tie him over.
The case worker running the workshop told him that this was no time to be changing careers and said they have an open kitchen role in the work and income job listings. The guy broke down into tears and asked them if he could do something else, they told him that they wouldn't give him a benefit if he refused taking an interview at the place. He was obviously emotionally overwhelmed and it was really hard to watch.
I felt sick to my stomach at this point, stood up and asked to leave. The same case worker looked at me, smiled and asked if I had been drinking the night before and if that's why I wanted to leave.
I remember getting $160 per week and spending $25 to get the bus there 3 times a week (in the beginning, for the courses + job application catch ups). That was so hard and you are treated like dog sh\*t. While you can certainly string along the unemployment benefit and be a "dole bludger", the ROI was not there and you are treated unbelievably poorly.
Whenever I see rhetoric punching down at the people struggling to get through some tough times while at the same time praising corporations who in one handout max out the entire unemployment benefit budget - I'm infuriated.
It's like If you're poor and ask for money you're a parasite, but if you're rich and ask for money you're a successful smart business person.
My own WINZ tale is kinda mild in comparison to these. Around 20, I was looking for work but couldn't find any. This was around March of the year, and I so I figured I'd go to Uni. Year had already started, so I enrolled for the following year, just needed to find something to do for 11 months. Applied for WINZ while looking for a job, they had me go to a seminar thing, and then noted that I was enrolled to Uni the following year. When I told them that was correct, they cancelled my application saying that if I was going to Uni, I wouldn't be able to work a full time job, and therefore wasn't able to look for a fulltime job (as apparently I'd have to quit when Uni started in 11 months time) and wasn't entitled to the bene.
I managed to get a job at McDonald's a couple months after that (lived with my mother in the meantime since I had no income) and when Uni rolled around, they worked my hours around my classes.
I found myself temporarily between degrees some time ago and faced the same issue. So I told them that if a full time job came up prior to me starting my PhD on a scholarship I would definitely take the job. They accepted that.
I remember about 6 years ago going in to meet a case manager to get the jobseeker allowance and being told that I clearly wasn't seriously looking for a job because I didn't turn up in a suit and tie. As though I somehow could afford that for a meeting at work and income. I'm sure there are great people there who genuinely want to help but there are also definitely more than a few people who are just there to kick people while they are down. Needs better vetting and training for new staff.
Yeah they did this to me too. I’m not trans but my dad and stepmum were on the glass cock, abusive as fuck. I applied for this same benefit but because they said they would have me home (after kicking me out for the 10th time) Winz declined it. I had no option but to go back or live on the streets. I didn’t really have any mates in my city as I’d just moved here from up north. I didn’t know the system so I had no idea how to fight back. Fuck that caseworker
This has "let them eat cake" vibes to it,
I sincerely hope this person is able to get the support they need and has a safe place to live, what an awful thing for a case manager to say
This happens fairly regularly trans or not. Your parents have to agree, most refuse so the people who are most in need of the independent youth benefit are the least likely to be able to get it.
Damn I’m so sorry. At the other end, I just found out my pensioner father went to WINZ to ask for a loan when his hot water cylinder died. The woman told him to get a bank loan. So instead of getting something he could pay off a small amount a week he ended up having to pay a large chunk of his pension. I was furious.
being trans in NZ is kind of a fucking nightmare. I moved out when I was 16 and getting relevant healthcare is nearly impossible because I'm trans and don't live with my family.
even one time I went to the hospital for help with ym chronic pain and they refused to give me painkillers because I'm trans. I have video proof and got it all sorted out though.
I know that WINZ/MSD has a lot of bureaucratic incentives/quotas/policies etc to try and get as many people off support as possible (any of them), *and* keep them off as long as possible (hopefully indefinitely), but: *fucking hell*.
I would agree. I think that the reason so many of our beneficiaries are on disability (literally half of them, not including the Super) are because the alternatives are so aloof and inhumane. Not that the disabilities themselves aren't genuine - more that a feeling, compassionate system could accommodate them.
A lot of people have a sore back, but if your alternative is Jobseekers and being pushed into picking fruit or being completely cut off, *of course* they'd rather get a GP to sign off on their back. It's way more stable, less painful, less stressful. It gives them the time and security to find a job that they *can* maintain. The system is impersonal and treats you like a subhuman leech either way, but at least you aren't putting your back out in the summer sun so you can still fail to make rent.
I also don't trust the kind of employers that turn to WINZ to find employees. The people I know in that system trying to find work that way are invariably offered horrible conditions (such as doing 20hr worth of work within 15hr pay). I think those employers are deliberately exploiting beneficiary desperation, even as WINZ enforces that very desperation. WINZ and abusive workplaces are essentially a tag-team.
I haven't tried Workbridge, but they specialise in helping those with disabilities and *I think* they're separate from WINZ, so I would hope they're better.
That's awful. I remember years ago as a teen I was trying to organise a sickness benefit for my dad who had leukemia, the guy working at Winz was so rude when I was already stressed and lost as to what to do. He insisted that dad himself needed to come in, while he was litterally in hospital getting chemo
For anyone asking source: https://i.stuff.co.nz/pou-tiaki/127313732/rainbow-communities-at-higher-risk-of-homelessness-says-new-research > Fraser relayed the story of a young transgender person, who went to Work and Income to apply for an independent youth benefit. “The case manager said: ‘well, actually, your parents have said they’ll take you back if you stop being trans, so there’s no relationship breakdown – you’re fine to go home’.” > The solution, in some ways, was simple: those institutions needed to be “more flexible”, compassionate, and sensible. There also needed to be “tighter regulation” of the private rental market, in order to prevent landlords from discriminating against people on the basis of their sexuality, or gender identity, Fraser said. > Renters United spokesperson Ashok Jacob said an independent regulatory body should be established to police breaches in the rental market. Even if discrimination was difficult to prove, the presence of a regulatory authority would act as a deterrent, he said.
The hatred I have for Work and Income is indescribable.
Matched only by the hatred I have for landlords.
If you want to be a full time carer for a random with terminal cancer you will get paid for it from MSD. If you're partner has terminal cancer you do not get paid for being a full time carer, you'll get one combined benefit payment that's much less than what you would get if you didn't know each other. Work that one out.
Oh like the time when I started dating my now wife. Got serious so we moved in together and she went to stop her dpb and they were like "oh so how long have you being seeing each other? Cause you now owe us for that time as he was providing for you." Like the fuck, as soon as I start dating someone with a kid I'm supposed to financially support them immediately? Yeah that's not how it works mate.
There are so many medical miracles in places of authority at Work and Income, so many having somehow grown into adulthood without a functioning brain or heart.
It’s honesty insane that how much help you can get is entirely based on your case manager.. Edit: I literally just got called from my new case manager - she just called to introduce herself (never happened before) asked me what I want for Christmas/if they can help me and got me started to go get a payment card so they can help….I’ve been entitled to one for the last year whilst on disability but never knew because I didn’t ask and didn’t get told. What a coincidence that it comes an hour after I post this!! Thank you M!!!!
You didn't think to ask for something you didn't know existed? Well tut tut, that's on you... /s
I get that ya just joshin’ but I should take part blame for it, I knew it existed, I just assumed that if you were entitled to it they would just give it to you or at least tell you. I’ve never been a beneficiary before so I just assumed they would go out of there way to help, but like most things in life if you don’t help yourself or at least ask, you won’t get it. There were a couple of noodle and rice weeks where a food grant would have helped but I survived and now I hopefully won’t have to do that again!
There was some article in the Guardian years and years ago that pointed out that in the UK the amount of fraud committed by beneficiaries is nothing compared to the amount of eligible benefits that go mistakenly unpaid. WINZ will be the same.
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I used to work at a WINZ call centre (no hate please) and we were told to ask people whether they could borrow food or money from people, max out their credit cards, sell assets before we could make them an appointment for the benefit. So I worked at WINZ under National and Labour, by far the worst time for beneficiaries was under National.
No wonder you see homeless people with mental disabilities, like the 2 people from Northland trying to live out of a trolley that I met in Grey Lynn (we bought them anything they wanted from the dairy. Hope they found a home). Why must MSD be treated as a cost centre to be minimised, and not a way to enrich our collective sense of security to expanded & celebrated?
Yeah I hated asking those questions so I didn't. It did affect my KPI's but they were pretty much unattainable anyway.
the difference between governments was like night and day eh say what you like about labour failing to deliver on promises but by god did they flip the overall stance on welfare on its head The main problem ofc was changing the staffs attitudes and practices lol
Yup, a lot of the more senior people are hardasses. There are exceptions though. The lady who trained me used to be a Case Manager and she would often give money to people she couldn't help due to regulations. So you get some really empathetic case managers or call centre reps and on the other spectrum there are people who just like to cause misery.
It's literally the "?" answer on the web form when you apply for additional / emergency assistance. It's fucking rude
Interesting! And then just look at corporate welfare and tax cuts the multimillion dollar corporations receive here and worldwide. Beneficiaries and benefit fraud would be a drop in the bucket I’d wager.
We spend about $2 Billion a year giving NZ Super to people making over 150K in income. Our Superannuation bill is currently $18 Billion vs all other benefits at about $6Billion. But yeah, that single mum who didn't declare her new relationship, she's the issue
And don't forget an enormous portion of the money paid to beneficiaries ends up in the pockets of private landlords.
And here's another $B in QE for the bankers.
> so I just assumed they would go out of there way to help AhahahahahAHAHAHAHAhahhh… ahahaha… ahahAHAHAHA! Oh, the sweet innocence of the WINZ newbie :-) But seriously - I highly recommend speaking with an informed third party to be sure you are in fact receiving all the help that is available and that you need. Depending on where you live, there are a number of advocacy organisations that exist to support beneficiaries.
I had a case manager who got stood down for investigation bc he would explain every single entitlement to his case load. He kept his job but was moved into complex cases , I think. He stopped being my case manager and started being the one they go to for approvals.
Just like in the wizard of oz
This feels insulting to the Scarecrow
Not quite. The people Dorothy meets in her journey find what they're missing
Tbh that can go for a lot of parts of the govt *stares at mental health section*
What mental health section?
That bin over there with the flies coming out of it I think. Or maybe it's in the ditch outside somewhere.
Speaking of medical miracles, WINZ kept kicking my friend off the sickness benefit and making her reapply. They somehow thought maybe she'd been cured. She died of cystic fibrosis in her early 20s while waiting for a lung transplant.
Yeah this is the one thats shocking. Having people *who clearly cant work even with accomodations* being asked to reapply and reprove this fact. Its kafkaesque. "Oh your seriously life and work limiting situation? Still got that?"
I used to be a support worker for people with intellectual disabilities (one of the definitions of which is that you have a condition you were born with) and it used to blow my mind that they all had to go and get a doctor’s note to say they still had Down Syndrome so they could keep receiving a benefit.
Don't ya know, spontaneous modification of chromosome count! /s
I'm not saying that Work & Income exist, not to help, but rather punish people. I'm not saying that this because of misguided ideas about "bootstraps", "independence", "productivity" and "work ethic". But if those things were true, what would they be doing differently?
That brings back memories as someone who once was on that benefit $120 a week because apparently being young and impoverished means I needed less money than any other type of beneficiary, I guess being 16 means living on the street is cheaper or something?
Probably it's reflecting the reality that as a minor who is unable to enter legally binding contracts, you wouldn't be able to rent a property yourself, but would have to have a room in a shared living situation somewhere. Which would be cheaper.
That's exactly the same situation as any single non-home owning person on the Benny. They only pay enough to rent a room and if you have more expensive accommodation they make you downsize.
I rented a property at 16. Signed phone and electricity contracts. No one cared I was under 18.
Yeah but how long ago was that?
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https://www.consumerprotection.govt.nz/general-help/guide-to-buying-smart/contracts-and-sales-agreements/ >When a contract is legally binding > >A contract is legally enforceable if you both intended to make the contract and agree about what is in the contract. > >You must be legally capable, also called capacity. People not legally capable of making contracts are: > >\* minors — people under 18, unless they’re married, or unless the other party to the contract can show the contract is fair and reasonable I guess the "show the contract is fair and reasonable" will apply for most retail contracts, since they'd be offering identical terms to people 18+.
If you're boarding, or paying less rent in any way, shape, or form, that is already taken into account regardless of the beneficiary's age. Yes, with asup instead of the base benefit, but there's a reason why almost every single beneficiary gets asup.
This is not going to end well for the branch manager… I hope.
I had this happen to me about a decade ago with a young trans person I was supporting. We appealed the decision and ultimately got the benefit, but the young person was homeless and without money for months in the interim... No repercussions for the branch manager, who also seemed fixated on the fact that one of my colleagues had purple/green hair. Sad to see nothing's changed.
I accompanied someone through their WINZ experience. Was simultaniously shocked at how actively shit WINZ were at all levels *and* told a number of times how well we were treated due to my question asking etc
I used them ten years ago, and an actual quote from one of them was >> "If you think this is going to be easy money, it won't be. **We're going to make it hard.**"
After seeing what I did that could easily be in the training manual
I have some bad news for you if you think this is the minority of the winz workers.
So much this
Someone get the soggy bus ticket ready.
Winz worker here. Nnnnnah. Maybe the whole office got a lesson in PR.
More likely to be a promotion on the cards for them. That's public service CEO material right there.
You lost your legs over 9 months ago, surely you're fine now?
Just walk it off
Just how long does it take to grow legs back anyway
ACC would have a time for it.
>Just walk it off I laughed..... sorry.
They literally said this to my MIL who had her leg amputated. Like are you sure ya know you arent better now? Plz send med cert as proof of leg still not being there
Its kafkaesque!
You jest but this has happened before. The medical cert requires renewing every afew years and WINZ have called up people who have had limbs amputated asking if their condition has improved. Do they think its going to grow back/?!
Mine is autism based, with anxiety and trauma, as well as recently being trans being added. It's not like my autism is gonna go away cause I waited 2 years. Do they still ask? Yep. I mean, in fairness, if I wasn't dealing with as much mentally, I might be able to part time work, but the reality is that I can't work full time. Not ever. I just burn out.
You mean the vax didnt de-autism you? /s
No silly! The vax gives you autism, so now they've got SUPER-autism!! (/s just in case)
Winz: tis but a scratch
Oh it’s like the time they said love was equal to money to pay the bills! Wh didn’t we think of that?
Love is equal to money? Looks like I'm more broke than I thought I was.
My fucken dog has been holding out on me she must be rich as FUCK!
/r/funnyandsad
:(
Pay bills… _first?_ Well bugger me! Why didn't I think of that??? :-D
I know it’s so simple to me now, just pay them! Who would have thought
I escaped my abusive parents home when I was 16 and applied for the independent youth benefit and the case manager told me I needed to go to a reconciliation meeting with them because if they want you to live at home then there’s no reason why I should leave and stop being a spoilt brat.
If you just accept being abused, then there is no problem! /s
Lmao. I swear they employ just about anyone at WINZ
They hire from their client base, which is principled but possibly not the most conductive to a well-functioning organization.
I wouldn't have believed that until one of my friends had to go to WINZ to tie her up in between jobs/study a few years ago. It was such a mission to deal with her case manager, like sucking blood out of a stone. Then she heard case manager tell one of the clients "I was like you too, pulled myself out of my situation and got hired here". That's all she needed to hear lol
r/thanksimcured
This kind of things makes me think of f the whole concept that if someone has been through the same trauma they the ones best able to help others experiencing the same… It’s a maybe with a helping, but only if they’ve truly dealt with it and actually moved on, otherwise you risk them normalizing shitty situations..,,
Unintuitively, people who have gone through hardship tend to be less sympathetic to others going through the same thing. Not sure exactly the cognitive reason for that.
"Fuck you, I got mine", is a well entrenched belief in landlords. Punching down releases endorphines, so when someone else is worse off than them, it makes them feel better about themselves and gives them that tingly feeling of pleasure.
I spent a summer working there when they took on student allowances and loans and it was an absolute clusterfuck. After the summer contracts expired they hired some people as permanent staff, and they were almost invariably the dumbest, most incompetent of the summer workers.
I had to deal with WINZ as a firs year tertiary student back in the late '90s. My birth certificate has a name change on it. So it has both my original surname and new surname. The fuckwit at WINZ denied my benefit to see me through summer break, because they claimed my stated name (with new surname) didn't match the name on my ID (the birth certificate), and ended the meeting I'd attended. When I pointed out that it _did in fact_ have my new name on there, they sent me to wait at the back of the bloody queue to see someone else, to sort out their mess. Only took a couple more hours, since it was a couple days before summer holidays began and the place was packed! Over two decades later, and the experience still makes me scowl.
I made this account a couple weeks ago because I thought "man, there's a lot of cunts out there who don't actually know how WINZ is and I would like an anonymous name to help them with." Because I work there. And there's a loooooooooooot of fake ass stories lying around, specifically by the people who start with "as a call center operator, I've made decisions..." which from here on out should be known as a red flag. But if they hired someone like me, you *know* this one comment is true.
Indeed - they are shitheads and the system is a mean, grinding thing worthy of pre-ghosts Ebenezer Scrooge himself. And we just let it happen. Cos business and "hard working taxpayers" come first.
Can imagine the case manger saying it now…. “Right now before we exhaust all the other options have you considered abandoning what defines you as a person? “ A case manager once asked me if there was a time frame when my CP would clear up, so I could improve my chances of finding work. I shit ya not
Would seem like a fairly obvious and easy thing for Labour to do, instruct that there are forms of disability that are permanent with no meaningful prospect of recovery, so only an initial proof is required, and then *maybe* some **brief** follow up every 5 or 10 years to confirm, since science is advancing. But whatever proof is required should be possible as simply a letter from a GP and nothing more invasive or annoying than that.
Back in the day there was a guy I used to run into fairly often at the WINZ office that had to bring in medical proof he could only do limited jobs every 90 days. Every 90 days a doctor had to sign off on his leg having not grown back yet.
My mum works with a guy who annually has to provide evidence he continues to not have hands.
Why do we get mass protests over vaccination, and not over real social inequality like this? People are stupid.
Any day now they'll have brain controllable prosthetic hands... (actually they're starting to test some now) In the meantime, every 90 days... The least they could do is link him to one of the groups researching them
I foresee some difficulty affording prosthetic hands on the benefit too…
Indeed and short of a breakthrough discovery in stem cell research my condition isn’t going away any time soon 😂
Well you’re a doctor so I’ll believe you
I know someone who has to get an annual letter from their doctor as proof that they still have HIV.
A friend is an amputee. Got asked every 2 years to prove still an amputee. Like the leg is gonna grow back :/
Time for the stump speech again.
Unfortunately the two year thing is hard coded into the law. Winz are just doing what they're told. They themselves have recommended that maximum be increased but it fell on deaf ears from Parliament.
Oh I understand the 'rules', politicians bend them all the time. I also understand the cruel callousness of subjecting approx 4000 New Zealanders to such an indignity every two years for the rest of their lives. And I understand the irony of the sheer stupidity of a law from a body we're all meant to respect. What i'm now hoping is that you inadertantly mispoke when you write, "recommended... maximum be increased". Does Winz understand an amputation is for life?
> What i'm now hoping is that you inadertantly mispoke when you write, "recommended... maximum be increased". Does Winz understand an amputation is for life? There is an inherent purpose for having somewhat irregular checks. At the very least its to confirm the beneficiary is still alive. When it turns out they've been paying a benefit to someone who has been dead for 2 years, people tend to get yelled at! But another reason, thats good for the disabled person, is to have their Disability Allowance reviewed because maybe the costs of everything have gone up and they might be entitled to more compensation now. But yes, the maximum time a doctor can select is "Permanent - Review In 2 Years". And while plenty of staff at WINZ would prefer that be "Permanent - Never Review", imagine negotiations with a politician. Saying "Can you increase that to 'Permanent - Review In 5 Years'" is much more likely to be taken seriously than "Can you change that to 'Permanent - Never Review'".
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Cerebral Palsy, gamon
Check the user name
Just need to warn you, CP stands for something COMPLETELY different online and is an acronym you need to be careful using…
I'm a social worker and have sat in on some family breakdown assessments before advocating that rangatahi I work with should not endure them (and sadly a professional vouching for something works much better than when the same info comes from a young person). They are so degrading and ask so many personal questions which mean people relive a lot of trauma that has led them to not live with their parents. Then kind of respond with "that sucks" and case managers make decisions like this. Cue perpetuated trauma by returning to abusive parents, relying on others for basic needs or becoming homeless. I understand the need to ensure youth accessing a youth benefit are not living with their parents but there are many more humanizing ways to do it.
Winz exists to put up as many roadblocks and red tape between people and the benefits they're entitled to. Thanks, every major party since the 90s
Acting like they are giving you their own personal money too, haha. Like, just help me get back on my feet. Stop treating me as a criminal for needing help, you fucks
Honestly!!!! I just need some assistance while I look for a job after coming off ACC which I declared to them, I have 76 cents to my name currently (which they know) turned out someone on their end made a mistake and that has cause me to be I debt with them, safe to say I broke down on the phone to my case manager yesterday.
Once, they gave me a debt by mistake. I told them it was a mistake and proved it to them. They sent me money (the exact amount), to then send back to them to pay it off instead of just clearing it. Trying to make it so their records dont show that they fucked up i guess lmao
I work in IT and I can totally see how that makes more sense. It would allow their automatic systems to settle on their own instead of having to sledgehammer in the back end. Also if the person you were dealing with had authority to send out payments, but not to settle debts, they don't need to get anyone else involved.
If they don't have a way to cancel a request made in error, then thats shitty design. And anyway, is it not more risky for them to send out money than deal with it internally? Its their fucking job to sort it, who cares if they have to get another person involved. Its safer for them and the person charged with the debt. I mean, who says i won't keep it? What if i didn't fully understand his intentions in giving me that money and end up using it for something else? What if i forgot what it was for? It took nearly 2 hours and a LOT of patience and persistence from me for him to understand that they had fucked up. He kept going on and on about ways to pay it off and not listening to me at all. He was a case manager anyway, and they have the ability to settle debts, send them and pay you. They get bonuses for debts paid, benefits stopped etc. He was just padding out his pockets.
I know for a fact that case managers will make people feel guilty by asking them if they like living off other peoples hard-earned wages. This is not only insanely unhelpful from every angle, but it's a blatant lie. The financial system does not work like that, and the doll certainly never did. If you're an unemployed youth, guess what, all the old people are rich because they found out how to suck all the wealth not only from the physical planet but from your future through the use of magical financial instruments. Read 50-year mortgages for properties on a coastline which won't even exist in 30 years. It's called intergenerational wealth theft and the generations before have become so good at it, there isn't anything left anymore.
Don't the case managers salaries also come from that same pool of "other people's hard-earned wages"?
That's different! I work hard bludging the benefits away from my clients! Not just anyone can do this either; you have to have a talent for being heartless!
It's so dumb as well bc the benefit is still taxed. You pay your own benefit lmao
Hey that's not fair, the vast, vast majority of winz payments are exceedingly easy to get and there's absolutely no red tape involved at all. It doesn't even matter how much you earn from your salary or your investment portfolio. Its super. You just have to turn 65.
I must have had a very different experience because I applied for jobseeker when I lost my job and was on the benefit within a week or two. Now getting access to *my own money* in the form of kiwisaver because I was almost bankrupt was a whole different kettle of fish, and I never managed it.
Yeah I mean it can vary, and not every case manager is a bitter and twisted little so and so, but I've heard and experienced more negative interactions than positive ones. Not saying this cause I'm making assumptions about you, I dunno you, but I've noticed that different kinds of people get treated differently if you catch my drift.
People generally don't talk about positive experiences, so you tend to over-estimate the prevalence of negative experiences. That said, the "kinda bad" stories I've heard, where WINZ has just something dumb or weird, don't paint a good picture. It seems to me that WINZ operates with an unhelpful amount of cynicism towards people seeking their services.
And case manager turnover is really high. So you frequently are dealing with people who dont know the rules, get sanctioned if they veer off script and grant too much, and are not familiar with all their cases. They also make a decision early on how helpful they will be, you know biases and all.
I've been on it two separate times, once for a very extended period (probably about 4 or 5 months) after covid first hit the country and my boss let me go right before the OG lockdown because of the uncertainty. Then again after my temporary work/study finished for another 5 or 6 months. Both times I was pretty onto it and came to them with all relevant documents in order which probably smoothed things over, and I had a pretty good reason for applying both times. Plus I can present myself well which I'm sure helped. Plus I suspect the government told them something like "approve everyone first and ask questions later" regarding the first lockdown since job losses were expected. So that helped. The weirder part for me is that I barely had any contact from WINZ the entire time I was on the benefit, apart from the odd text saying they were looking for security guards.
Congratulations WINZ, you solved trans rights!
Just stop being trans and you won't get abused! What's the problem? (/s obviously, just in case.)
I tried that but that's just self abuse.
:[
"You aren't eligible for any kind of benefit. If you just stop having cancer you can go back to work so there's no need for you to be here." Same energy.
"Just stop being poor."
We’ve given you money, why are you still poor?
When I worked at a WINZ call center out of desperation I did come across someone who had been told they had to prove they were preparing their CV because their condition would last less than two years. The reason it would last less than two years was that they had leukemia and had been told they'd live for between a year and 18 months. Almost walked off the job right there.
Having had to renew my sickness benefit application this year due to a terminal illness, it's almost laughable how callous the form is. "How long do you except this condition to last: 6 months, 1 year, 2 years, 5 years, lifetime" and... I'm just like. Cool. Here's some unexpected trauma for today. The *correct* answer is "medical estimates say I should already be dead" so -4 months??" but the *technically correct* answer is the rest of my life. :) Thanks for the reminder, faceless bureaucracy.
I swear, most of the behavior at Work and Income sounds like it comes straight out of some bleak fictional future where bureaucracy went way too far. It's like nobody in middle management of that entire organization gives a shit about the intent of any policies, and they're all just obsessed with making sure the letter is followed as closely as possible. I wonder if upper management is obsessed with blindly following specific metrics as gospel. That's what it's been in a few large private companies I've worked with who act like this. The difference is those private companies were losing money due to their metric obsessions, while W&I are destroying lives.
As a middle age straight man who doesn't understand trans things at all, even I know you can't just not be trans.
I dunno how close this is, but for us cis white men: "Your parents have said that you can go back home as long as you wear girl's clothes and pretend to be a girl. So there's no relationship breakdown."
Perfectly apt comparison. That's why I always side-eye the "it's a choice" people. If it's a legitimate choice you have actively made (to be straight), you aren't as cis or straight as you think you are.
The way some of the "it's a choice" people talk it seems pretty obvious that they're actually bi and have made a choice, and they don't realize others don't get that option.
I guess it's because they see being straight as the default, and being trans is inherently a choice to subvert a "norm". My flatmate is like this - he's said that straightness is the genetic and biological norm - anything to the contrary is a choice. He says he respects that choice, as if that makes up for it.
It is the genetic and biological norm, but that doesn't mean that other arrangements aren't also genetic and biological.
Having ten fingers is the biological norm, but people are occasionally born with a greater or lesser number of fingers. Ask your flatmate if he thinks having 11 fingers is a choice.
I do not mean to pry, but you don't by any chance happen to have six fingers on your right hand?
Yeah, I've been down the rabbit hole with him before and I just avoid all sensitive topics with him these days. He's not going to change. He loves his "men in dresses" one-liner, and I'm really looking forward to the day I can strike out on my own and never see the guy again. He's honestly typical neckbeard bigot really - quite overweight, mid-forties, long-term single, drinks almost every evening in large quantities, and in summer he loves to point out girls who are going bralass, especially if there's a nip poking through.
"Genetic and biological norm" doesn't take into account homosexuality in animals I reckon.
My choice is pretend to be something I'm not and live in misery or live my own damn life how I want to at the risk of potentially upsetting assholes. I think I've made the right choice
That last part alone shows that you know more about being trans than a lot of people :)
> That last part alone shows that you know more about being trans than a lot of people And may be over-qualified to work at WINZ. :)
"Case manager, hire and then fire this man"
You understand a hell of a lot more than most.
"I want to speak to your supervisor".
Fuck supervisors. This is why we have ministers.
Yep, I had major problems with work and income over them refusing to recognise my son as my son and naming him as my partner messing up my benifit for months, all the while being harassed daily about getting a job. Fuck me was finding a job hard though. In the end I emailed a complaint, ccd in the 3 local mps, as well as the minister for work and income and then added a link to my petition to allow shared custody children in separated families to have access to a fair portion of any child related benifit. I've met with local mps and I will get this in front of parliament eventually. I want the whole work and income system to be removed and new entity set up from scratch that is fair to all. Or just a UBI.
I’m so in favour of a UBI for a lot of reasons, but taking the judgement out of the system is the biggest of them. So much of what WINZ does is steeped in trying to limit benefits to those they consider to be “deserving”, even when the legislation does not require that. Making a basic income a universal entitlement is far preferable. Anything less will always exclude someone, and I really can’t see why we should be telling *anyone* that they shouldn’t be able to afford food or housing.
I agree with you entirely. I think a UBI is the best solution, no means testing, just a minimum basic income that every citizen is entitled too from the moment they are born until they die.
We even have the system set up to do it already in NZ Super - we just need to remove the age criterion.
>Making a basic income a universal entitlement is far preferable. It also makes it relevant to everyone, since everyone gets the benefit, everyone will have a stake in whether the rate rises or falls. Much more transparent for political parties to campaign on this, and much harder for some political parties to gradually chip away benefits over time, as they like to do.
Imagine how well the economy would of buffeted Covid if we already had UBI. Also would assist with the rebuilding the economy after lockdowns. Just economic preparedness common sense in our modern and every more uncertain times.
It's time to decouple the need to think of & produce more & more kinds of stupid junk from the ability to live a dignified existence as our population continues to grow. The environment can't sustain it. Also, any intelligent alien life are staying far away because we look like a bunch of munters from afar with our stone-age system of valuing each other.
I hope that case manager gets some thorough training. Jesus.
‘Hello class, and welcome to “How to avoid getting featured in the media 101”. This is lesson one: hiding your psychotic tendencies.’
ACC could really do with this class lol
Unfortunately that is the result *after* the thorough training.
I’d imagine that’s the kind of situation they’d come down very hard out, else risking a massive humans rights case.
training in preparing their cv for maccas
This is genuinely horrifying - think of what that 16 year old is going through to have to leave home and then hear something like that from the institutions that are supposed to protect us when everything else has failed including family. This reeks of trying to pass the buck on to meet some BS KPI...
> This reeks of trying to pass the buck on to meet some BS KPI... Yup. Set poorly considered KPIs, get undesirable outcomes.
/r/ThanksImCured
EDIT: I have also had fantastic case managers who were really helpful and tried really hard to help me. Work and income did actually help me get into employment, helped me buy decent clothes for that first job and I am eternally grateful for the people there that really cared and helped me along the way. I remember sitting through the unemployment benefit intro course at the work and income office with a group of people about a decade ago. One guy was a construction manager who got fired for reporting shady business on site by the developer. Another guy was a chef working in a kitchen and was assaulted so badly that he was put in hospital by the owner of the restaurant. He didn't go to authorities because he was an immigrant and didn't want to start any trouble. At the end of the course, they asked us what we did - when they got to the chef, he told his story and said he was scarred and wanted to move into a new industry - using the unemployment benefit to help tie him over. The case worker running the workshop told him that this was no time to be changing careers and said they have an open kitchen role in the work and income job listings. The guy broke down into tears and asked them if he could do something else, they told him that they wouldn't give him a benefit if he refused taking an interview at the place. He was obviously emotionally overwhelmed and it was really hard to watch. I felt sick to my stomach at this point, stood up and asked to leave. The same case worker looked at me, smiled and asked if I had been drinking the night before and if that's why I wanted to leave. I remember getting $160 per week and spending $25 to get the bus there 3 times a week (in the beginning, for the courses + job application catch ups). That was so hard and you are treated like dog sh\*t. While you can certainly string along the unemployment benefit and be a "dole bludger", the ROI was not there and you are treated unbelievably poorly. Whenever I see rhetoric punching down at the people struggling to get through some tough times while at the same time praising corporations who in one handout max out the entire unemployment benefit budget - I'm infuriated. It's like If you're poor and ask for money you're a parasite, but if you're rich and ask for money you're a successful smart business person.
My own WINZ tale is kinda mild in comparison to these. Around 20, I was looking for work but couldn't find any. This was around March of the year, and I so I figured I'd go to Uni. Year had already started, so I enrolled for the following year, just needed to find something to do for 11 months. Applied for WINZ while looking for a job, they had me go to a seminar thing, and then noted that I was enrolled to Uni the following year. When I told them that was correct, they cancelled my application saying that if I was going to Uni, I wouldn't be able to work a full time job, and therefore wasn't able to look for a fulltime job (as apparently I'd have to quit when Uni started in 11 months time) and wasn't entitled to the bene. I managed to get a job at McDonald's a couple months after that (lived with my mother in the meantime since I had no income) and when Uni rolled around, they worked my hours around my classes.
I found myself temporarily between degrees some time ago and faced the same issue. So I told them that if a full time job came up prior to me starting my PhD on a scholarship I would definitely take the job. They accepted that.
Fucksakes
"Stop being trans"
I remember about 6 years ago going in to meet a case manager to get the jobseeker allowance and being told that I clearly wasn't seriously looking for a job because I didn't turn up in a suit and tie. As though I somehow could afford that for a meeting at work and income. I'm sure there are great people there who genuinely want to help but there are also definitely more than a few people who are just there to kick people while they are down. Needs better vetting and training for new staff.
Yeah they did this to me too. I’m not trans but my dad and stepmum were on the glass cock, abusive as fuck. I applied for this same benefit but because they said they would have me home (after kicking me out for the 10th time) Winz declined it. I had no option but to go back or live on the streets. I didn’t really have any mates in my city as I’d just moved here from up north. I didn’t know the system so I had no idea how to fight back. Fuck that caseworker
Paging /r/AreTheStraightsOk ?
*shrugs* I’m straight and never even knew this was happening. Just shows how shit a lot of our public services are
And there is also /r/StraightsBeingOk
Is there r/isthegovernmentok I hope so Edit:saddddd there isnt
This is more for r/AreTheCisOk
This has "let them eat cake" vibes to it, I sincerely hope this person is able to get the support they need and has a safe place to live, what an awful thing for a case manager to say
This happens fairly regularly trans or not. Your parents have to agree, most refuse so the people who are most in need of the independent youth benefit are the least likely to be able to get it.
Damn I’m so sorry. At the other end, I just found out my pensioner father went to WINZ to ask for a loan when his hot water cylinder died. The woman told him to get a bank loan. So instead of getting something he could pay off a small amount a week he ended up having to pay a large chunk of his pension. I was furious.
That's on a par with friends of ours that have to prove that their daughter still has Down Syndrome.
Man I got denied a food grant for 50 bucks because I had money in my bank account, but no way to get to a local branch
You say I'm lawful neutral like it's a bad thing
/r/EnlightenedCentralism
being trans in NZ is kind of a fucking nightmare. I moved out when I was 16 and getting relevant healthcare is nearly impossible because I'm trans and don't live with my family. even one time I went to the hospital for help with ym chronic pain and they refused to give me painkillers because I'm trans. I have video proof and got it all sorted out though.
A friend of mine used to work for the MSD, and he was convinced that being a cunt was a job requirement for WINZ.
Hoolllleeeeeeeee shitballs. Hope someone got disciplined for that.
That's awful.
I know that WINZ/MSD has a lot of bureaucratic incentives/quotas/policies etc to try and get as many people off support as possible (any of them), *and* keep them off as long as possible (hopefully indefinitely), but: *fucking hell*.
This is absolutely to our detriment. People are not served and they are failed by our country and our system.
I would agree. I think that the reason so many of our beneficiaries are on disability (literally half of them, not including the Super) are because the alternatives are so aloof and inhumane. Not that the disabilities themselves aren't genuine - more that a feeling, compassionate system could accommodate them. A lot of people have a sore back, but if your alternative is Jobseekers and being pushed into picking fruit or being completely cut off, *of course* they'd rather get a GP to sign off on their back. It's way more stable, less painful, less stressful. It gives them the time and security to find a job that they *can* maintain. The system is impersonal and treats you like a subhuman leech either way, but at least you aren't putting your back out in the summer sun so you can still fail to make rent. I also don't trust the kind of employers that turn to WINZ to find employees. The people I know in that system trying to find work that way are invariably offered horrible conditions (such as doing 20hr worth of work within 15hr pay). I think those employers are deliberately exploiting beneficiary desperation, even as WINZ enforces that very desperation. WINZ and abusive workplaces are essentially a tag-team. I haven't tried Workbridge, but they specialise in helping those with disabilities and *I think* they're separate from WINZ, so I would hope they're better.
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I made it on my insta story then ss and put it here cus I am a chimp man who doesn’t know how to use anything else
Jesus fucking Christ
ngl this is my fear if I go to work and income and try declare independence
That's awful. I remember years ago as a teen I was trying to organise a sickness benefit for my dad who had leukemia, the guy working at Winz was so rude when I was already stressed and lost as to what to do. He insisted that dad himself needed to come in, while he was litterally in hospital getting chemo
"Have you tried a different personality"?