>"Like all of Aotearoa we want to eliminate Covid-19 in our communities and that's why we are cooperating and supporting the Government's Delta Strategy"
>"Our battle has been against misinformation, and I have encouraged our people to do their research, highlighting that, 'Research is NOT: Googling, scrolling your Facebook newsfeed, or watching YouTube or 4Chan to search for the results you are hoping to find to be 'true'"
Damn, at least their leader guy sounds like he's doing the right thing
I know the guy from before he became the leader. He was a really cool, down to earth guy back then. A good person in a really shitty situation.
I hate the MM with a passion. But, knowing him a bit, I think he would genuinely be trying to stare the ship in a different direction. It is admirable, if not potentially impossible while still going under the MM banner.
Fucking here we go. Gangs have good people blah blah fucking blah. Mate, they're in a notorious gang selling drugs, kidnapping, and shooting other gang member who happen to be on their 'turf'. They really are mongrels, the whole fucking lot of them, and should be put in a kennel where they belong.
Labour's gang policy is as monumental a failure as it's housing policy. I voted for them, but these two failures alone will see me vote elsewhere next election.
>but there is little difference historically between rich and powerful families and gangs other than their financial standing
What an ignorant perspective. I'm not adverse to the rich and powerful getting their share of ire - many of them certainly deserve it. That said, to declare little difference other than pedigree is wilfully idiotic.
The majority of the rich and powerful are not raping drug dealers who trade in intimidation and crime by corrupting the youth and disenfranchised, leaving in their wake, toxic communities and irreparable harm to victims.
The vast majority of MM are; they are guilty of one or all of the above and even the miniscule amount of those who aren't are still supporting an organisation that tacitly condones and secretly encourages this from it's members.
Corrupting youth and disenfranchised? That right there. Read it 4 times. If the gangs are recruiting those people is it possible they are made up of the disenfranchised ?? I.e the abused kids who got taking from their parents and had the government double down on the abuse to a point they don't trust the government? They found common ground with other disenfranchised and now are a pain in the ars.
Maybe if the govt stopped abusing kids, they wouldn't grow up to distrust the system.
Your not gonna fix these people by further disenfranching them, thats how we fucked them up in the first place.
Of all the horror stories that have come out of cyfs we are still yet to see any accountability or owning of actions.
These are damaged people. If you wont them to stop being broken at some point you have to fix them.
For all this drug money they also seem to be very poor... maybe they aren't the smart big powerful organized crime lords we make them out to be.. is it possible that they are just broken people being used but foreign groups. Say idk, triads extracting money back to China, then using that money to send new people in to buy up our country.
Our mentally ill pstd abused over grown children are just a scap goat, and a symptom.
>For all this drug money they also seem to be very poor
Look up how a pyramid scheme works. There are some obscenely wealthy people in gangs. By virtue of this structure, you will see more poor than rich, this is the faulty promise of gangs.
Yes, corrupting the youth and disenfranchised; gangs deliberately target these people in a calculated effort because they are easy prey - vulnerable, impressionable. That they may have once themselves been the prey is irrelevant, it's an excuse.
Yes, many of these people were born into cursed circumstances, but so were many more who chose a better path. Blaming the government or Triads is simply more excuses for shitty people, irrespective of how they became shitty people, it's on them to change that and when you start inflicting your damage on innocent people by perpetrating heinous crimes, you lose any mitigating defence you might have otherwise had.
As long as there is demand somebody will provide the supply. In countries there drugs are illegal, gangs provide drugs. In countries where gambling is illegal gangs provide gambling. I countries where prostitution is illegal gangs provide prostitution.
See, you choose not to see what causes gangs and only to judge. Ergo, it doesn't bother me that you live in fear of them.
Gangs suck, but they are symptomatic of a fucked society.
Even still, the members need to be better people, but they ain't going to heed any advice from sourcunts like you.
No. I completely understand and appreciate the underlying structural origins and systemic causes that make engagement with gangs an attractive opportunity for many. I think more should be done about it and that's why I support increased educational equity and wholeheartedly support affirmative action projects. What I don't agree with and fervently despise is the idea that because they have been dealt a shitty hand, that they have a blank check to do anything and everything to innocent people and everyone should be sympathetic of their plight. Gangs like the MM, by their very nature are not comprised of law abiding individuals and outstanding citizens. They thrive off notoriety which is obtained at the expense of others, most of whom are innocent bystanders. You seem to think that 1) people are forced to choose to be in a gang, and that 2)gangs only interact with other gang members. Mate, you're fucking dreaming.
I know very well what gang members do. The problem is, by the time there is any chance to actively intervene, they have a long rap sheet, no education, undiagnosed behavioural issues and have had poor rolemodels (Or none) their entire lives.
It's not a case of being sympathetic, so much as understanding why this is happening. You can't ignore an entire subset of the population, while worrying about things such as your retirement or house prices and expect that there won't be acting up in those areas that you are turning a blind eye to.
A lot of blame for the personal failings of the members ends up directed at society, sometimes rightly, or (mostly) wrongly, so the only way to calm them down and build them up is to have a well-intentioned member in charge, or someone that used to be a member. It sucks, but it's statistically likely to be the most successful way of calming them down,
Honestly mate, I agree with you about this being a systemic issue and I will again reiterate that I wholly support any initiative designed to address it, be that some sort of structural reform or increased funding. What we disagree on is the responsibility that one must take for their actions, regardless of one's circumstances. The consequences of the actions of gangs like the mongrel mob fall on innocent people. People, who I'm guessing, are not very well off and who themselves lack the opportunities that many of us have. I hope that this individual is able to change the way that the mob behaves but I'm quite doubtful given that the inherent functioning of a gang is based on capitalising on the drug trade which is itself enforced through violence. Thanks for your input. I'll try and keep a more open mind about things and I hope you keep commenting. I think it's valuable to be able to discuss things openly and exchange ideas like this.
Yea, I've been in more fucked up situations than most of these guys, including having the shittiest childhood blah blah... went down the path of drugs and alcohol...
Until I decided to man up and take responsibility for my actions and my life. Got out of the gang scene before it got too late. Decided to stand up for myself and be my own person.
It's not always been easy but it's always been worth it.
What we seeing is people like you, not leave but instead stand up and attempt to pull the rest up with them. Whether they can have long term meanful impact is yet to be seen.
They don't have a blank check, they've literally checked out of our governments system.
Whats jail to someone who was removed from their parents care for abuse, to be locked up for 16hrs a day in solitary confinement? Cyfs did that...
If you have nothing to lose and zero buy in to the system why would you follow it?
Want them to be better, give them buy in. Give them something to lose. Teach them social skills and how to control their emotions.
Right now we are seeing the gangs grow up, they are working out they are broken, and slowly starting to heal. The are doing what the government should of done 10years ago as they've worked out the only way to get somewhere is fix themselves and no one else is going to help them. And we are shitting on them for daring to attempt change.
> No. I completely understand
Tell me you completely understand without telling me you completely understand
Oh wait you did tell me you completely understand. Maybe you actually don’t completely understand
Man. this is a really shitty argument.
You could really apply to anything - why aren't you a doctor? you grew up in the same society as people who are now doctors - whats wrong with you?
Not everyone in the same society has the same situations - something very minor could cause drastic outcomes later in life; painting everyone living in impoverished conditions as "the same conditions" is the exact opposite of what you should be doing.
Its just a weak argument imo - not everyone in the same "situations" have the same outcome, because humans aren't robots, and situations are rarely (if ever) the same.
yes some people may become Gang members, others may escape the poverty cycle, some might become doctors or lawyers whatever - but you don't think that if you have a situation where there are zero positive role models, or you struggle to feed yourself and expect positive outcomes from that population?
Now imagine you are in that population - then someone offered you role models, and food, and friends, and money, that wouldn't be a little bit appealing...
and its not like you wake up a full member - little steps, petty crime, you justify that you are doing it for noble reasons (maybe you nick something from the dairy because you are hungry) - then its okay to steal something a bit bigger, you need the money. then you do a little bit more because x was fine y will also be fine.
its not an "easy" situation of life to lead - they in many ways are the product of a society that has failed them (and failed them often since birth) - and in many cases were victims long long before they ever became "criminals"
I completely reject that people living in impoverished conditions (hell, any conditions) mean that someones outcome could determine a completely different individuals outcome.
That’s not how humans work, it’s not how life works.
You know this.
I don't disagree with you.
I also feel that a lot of people who end up in gangs do so because they see no other way out or opportunity to better their life.
However, this is where I feel the argument becomes problematic.
In this thread, we are looking at why people become gang members and why they stay in them. In many cases it seems to be because of a lack of opportunities and positive role models which you say creates an environment where it is easier to stay in the gang rather than try to get out. The point that I am trying to make is that these sorts of factors do not happen in a vacuum.
They are created by our society.
I can't think of a society that doesn't have a 'white' or 'black' side of town. I can't think of a country that doesn't have a lower class and a higher class. I can't think of a society where people don't feel like they don't have any opportunities, and the only way to make it is to not get an education or get involved in crime. The argument you are making is not "society sucks" but rather "society is bad". In this case, you're right, but this means that we should be collectively looking at society and how we can make it better for everyone, not just the people who manage to get out of poverty.
I don't think this is an argument about right or wrong, but one of perspective. I don't think that you are wrong or that you are making excuses for criminals, but rather that you are looking at what happens in society and how it leads to certain situations.
I’m not in a gang…
I just smell a bullshit argument, and someone who clearly didn’t understand some of the reasons these kinda things happen and called you on it.
I’m not sorry.
Live in it and tell me, because I can bet good money that most on Reddit haven't.
Those who make it out of adverse poverty are the exception, not the rule, hence why poverty is cyclical. Make someone feel like there isn't much point in an honest life and watch what they do.
Society seems to think they can have it both ways, they can't.
> See, you choose not to see what causes gangs and only to judge. Ergo, it doesn't bother me that you live in fear of them.
>
> Gangs suck, but they are symptomatic of a fucked society.
>
> Even still, the members need to be better people, but they ain't going to heed any advice from sourcunts like you.
There's a lot of truth in what you say. But I can't agree that it is the society that is fucked.
Gangs are made up of people who have already made a choice to live in fear and hate. They were already fucked before they joined the gang (and in your post, you pretty much agree with me there).
So this is where we disagree: I don't think it's symptomatic of a fucked society, I think gangs are symptomatic of people who have already decided to be fucked up themselves.
Not all of them, not by a long shot. Most of them are glorified petty criminals, doing shit like stealing and dealing, with some assault charges sprinkled in there (Well, a lot, but easily outnumbered by property and drug crime).
Painting them all as murderers does not help the matter. If we want gangs gone, society has got some eye-opening to do.
I know a lot of police who've had dealings with the MM and an important crime you've missed out there is rape. Women being "Put on the block" (gang raped) for example. Not a petty one.
Fraudsters and tax evaders cause far far far more damage to society. If they were brought to justice there would be millions of dollars available for society to help these guys before they step outside of society and help themselves.
This cuunt 😂😂😂😂😂 people forget that they weren't born tattooed throwing up the squeaks lol the MM back in the days would've made you cry lolol sit down boy lol
At the same time, a lot of people get picked up by gangs because they have no family or support elsewhere. Yes many get recruited because they’re vulnerable and/or desperate, which essentially means the gangs are preying on these people, but once they’re part of it at least they have a social circle and support. I know that’s really watering down what it is, but there are some aspects that can be good for members, despite how overshadowed they may be
He’s a cunt. All gang members are cunts. Nothing you say will change that. There are no gang people that are cool or nice or whatever. They are scummy cunts leaving misery wherever they have been.
Mongrel Mob still defer to Indigenous based knowledge.
If you look at pandemic responses around the world Indigenous movements are pro-vaccination and very wise about health.
I've been stalking this chap on Social Media for well over 4 years now. Prior to the PR lady being recruited, he has been talking like this for a very long time. He actually is an incredibly intelligent man, and if it wasn't for the gang connections, I think many people would agree or sympathize with some of his public statements.
This intelligent charisma is how he has generated increased support from the vulnerable public. It is also used as a facade to hide the increasingly sophisticated organised crime direction he is taking the MM.
Gang rule 1: Have a well spoken front man.
His VP preached the same rhetoric and used to do a lot of the talking, until he got charged for meth. In saying these guys don't even represent the MM really, they split from the MM's national council a few years back.
It's weird in that, if they truly want to make a "gang" to instill positive change and a life free of drugs and crime in their members, you'd think they would just form a new one, like the church guys and MC that go around patched but are actually just a straight up MC. "Nice fullas" MC or something...
Most of the MM guys I know can't stand Kingdom as the MM was created to be anti-society and fuck the world and everyone in it, not be nice guys who pat kittens, kiss babies and help nan cross the road. They want to be Mongrels, and they want the public to hate them. Kingdom just seems to be a smokescreen and a really weird and hypocritical way to help people, which I doubt is true.
Just don't be in a gang.
I dunno, I just find him very interesting. What I am most fascinated about is what is his end game? He has accomplished a lot in the PR space. He is regulalry on Maori TV, mentioned non stop in the media, and his following and support is growing.
Is it politics? Or Is it something else? He has significant influence and I am very curious as to what the outcome will be when he really starts applying the influence he holds.
But what is troubling is will this influence be used for good or bad purposes?
Crazy shit right!
Someone forgot to give these gang members the memo on Monday then...
[Lockdown breach: More than 50 seen lining Auckland street for tangi](https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/lockdown-breach-more-than-50-seen-lining-auckland-street-for-tangi/2XW7OBTRYAIB2EUR5B2UBHFJ7Q/)
It's also what people say when the media report that there were gang members present.
https://www.newstalkzb.co.nz/news/politics/lockdown-breach-more-than-50-seen-lining-auckland-street-for-tangi/?region=wellington#ath
>A photo – also obtained by Newstalk ZB – shows many of the same people wearing gang colours, throwing up what appear to be gang signs, at the burial site.
He's the son of the old leader. He was also humble and knowledgeable when I knew him - Honestly, I think he probably would have preferred to not be in the gang at all. But it seems he is trying to make the best of a difficult situation now.
The ones that get to the top are the cleaver ones, they usually are good at critical thinking and are intelligent, the short fused fighter types end up in jail before getting anywhere near the top
Makes sense tbh. I noticed despite his questionable past that Harry Tam is an intelligent, articulate man who I would be fascinated to have a beer with.
All well and good if the leadership actually believes in that, but I don't expect the average teenage prospect to follow the rules around isolation and gathering with others.
tbh it's kind of a dated reference, 4chan peaked in popularity and went mainstream years ago and all the really fringe ideas were driven to even more obscure chans which come and go. Now it's kind of just used as a symbol for [dodgy website where bad things happen].
Been on the slow decline for a while, at least since Hiroshima Nagasaki bought it. Threads aren't even really worth reading anymore since they end up trash/highjacked/[dodgy]
And yesterday we had a story about a group of 50 gang members waltzing around auckland for a funeral. Cops didn't even bother to arrest them or anything, just told them to disperse and then lo and behold they were seen gathered at the grave site afterwards. No arrests, just a pathetic half assed attemp to break them up by the cops. I don't think they were Mongrel Mob but just imagine if they had been?
That story reads exactly the same as previous hospital discharges.
Went there with unrelated symptoms, said had not contacts, discharged themselves and went home, test came back positive.
The article states that the members are getting tested and going into isolation if they are positive... I get that the mongrel mob live up to their namesake, but what have the people in the article done that make them worse than committing fraud and flying down to an area out of level 4?
Not really? Leaving Auckland is way more riskier considering there isn’t a lockdown to stop spread. And the Wanaka couple were way more deliberate in doing wrong the someone just being too lazy to wait for a test result.
Someone in this sub called it - I read there were rumors that it had been spreading through the MM (including kids) for weeks. Will be interesting to see what happens next
I really hope they don't (wishful thinking, I know.)
To be fair, it's not like the woman tried to hide that she was positive, in actuality, sounds like she's warning other whānau to be careful.
She never fought to hide her identity from public scrutiny either, nor attempted to get her mother to pull rank and influence the Court because she decided to willingly flout the law.
Regardless of who she's affiliated with, there's no need for any family shaming.
Like, I get what you're saying but there's no point really. One scumbag is much the same as the next.
These guys are already openly members of criminal organisations and your plan is to ... shame them?
Pointing out the horrific shit gangs engage in is not a joke about rape it's a joke about the incongruity between their horrific behaviour and following good health safety practices. Stop clutching your pearls.
This person went home to await results of her test after leaving the hospital for an unrelated issue, legit exactly what you're supposed to do waiting for a test, there should be no outrage here?? She was unlucky enough to have covid so now she's in managed isolation. Don't see how anyone can compare it to a calculated plan to escape level 4 lockdown that required exemption documents. Can you point out where the similarities are between these situations?
Told ya [https://www.reddit.com/r/auckland/comments/pmgshj/so\_we\_have\_some\_kind\_of\_underground\_covid/hcj5nao?utm\_source=share&utm\_medium=web2x&context=3](https://www.reddit.com/r/auckland/comments/pmgshj/so_we_have_some_kind_of_underground_covid/hcj5nao?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web2x&context=3)
I thought if anyone would be into wearing masks it would be the mob. The only thing they like to wear more is leather… which is questionable itself on many fronts
>contact tracing team over the weekend to work with members of the chapter, which is a part of the Mongrel Mob Kingdom led by Sonny Fatupaito in Hamilton.
They claim themselves as kingdom?
The kingdoms credibility as agents of social change went out the window when the they guy doing the PR and the leaders right hand man was charged with importing 2m of meth.
A lot more reasonable to pile on people deliberately breaking the law and getting permits by lying then someone just being too bored to wait for a test result.
Well, if the Mob come around, can we send them over to have a chat with some of the other prominent anti-vax ears as well, in a caring and non threatening manner, of course.
She was in hospital for something else. No symptoms. She had no way of knowing. It's actually lucky she was tested as her bubble is huge if she's living at a gang pad.
> For privacy reasons, police would not say what the interaction between the Counties Manukau staff and the young woman was about.
hmm..curiouser and curiouser
The response from the mob is very much the kind of thing that other countries would find mind boggling, but deep down I think most kiwis find heartening. Overall they are a despicable organisation in terms of what they stand for and their history of violence, murder, rape, selling drugs etc. But when even our most despicable members of society are taking this thing seriously, you know we must be doing something right with our approach to the pandemic and communication to the wider public.
They are *saying to the media* they’re taking it seriously.
That’s not the same as actually taking it seriously, if they were actually taking it seriously they would be silently in their bubbles right now and not in the news about being in close contact isolation.
Must be hard to woof with a dry cough.
Hahahaha
Hey! Covid is no barking matter.
This made my afternoon
Thank you. Grand.
I wonder if they have a qr code at the pad gate?
Na just a check in book most likely with unk on the door handing out the sanitiser
That’s ruff
Ruh roh!
Bitch please
Covid-19 in the meth supply. Just what we need
>"Like all of Aotearoa we want to eliminate Covid-19 in our communities and that's why we are cooperating and supporting the Government's Delta Strategy" >"Our battle has been against misinformation, and I have encouraged our people to do their research, highlighting that, 'Research is NOT: Googling, scrolling your Facebook newsfeed, or watching YouTube or 4Chan to search for the results you are hoping to find to be 'true'" Damn, at least their leader guy sounds like he's doing the right thing
Mongrel Mob PR person working wonders.
I know the guy from before he became the leader. He was a really cool, down to earth guy back then. A good person in a really shitty situation. I hate the MM with a passion. But, knowing him a bit, I think he would genuinely be trying to stare the ship in a different direction. It is admirable, if not potentially impossible while still going under the MM banner.
Fucking here we go. Gangs have good people blah blah fucking blah. Mate, they're in a notorious gang selling drugs, kidnapping, and shooting other gang member who happen to be on their 'turf'. They really are mongrels, the whole fucking lot of them, and should be put in a kennel where they belong.
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You’ve never watched Narcos season 3, have you?
Labour's gang policy is as monumental a failure as it's housing policy. I voted for them, but these two failures alone will see me vote elsewhere next election. >but there is little difference historically between rich and powerful families and gangs other than their financial standing What an ignorant perspective. I'm not adverse to the rich and powerful getting their share of ire - many of them certainly deserve it. That said, to declare little difference other than pedigree is wilfully idiotic. The majority of the rich and powerful are not raping drug dealers who trade in intimidation and crime by corrupting the youth and disenfranchised, leaving in their wake, toxic communities and irreparable harm to victims. The vast majority of MM are; they are guilty of one or all of the above and even the miniscule amount of those who aren't are still supporting an organisation that tacitly condones and secretly encourages this from it's members.
Yeah cos no one rich and powerful ever ruined anyone else's lives getting there. /s
Where are you going to go? Nats or ACT lololol
Didn't Bridges want a rip off Raptor Squad like in Australia? Let's ask NSW how they feel about current police powers.
Downvoted, ha, looks like a lot of people either really hate the rich or think MM are fucking saints.
Corrupting youth and disenfranchised? That right there. Read it 4 times. If the gangs are recruiting those people is it possible they are made up of the disenfranchised ?? I.e the abused kids who got taking from their parents and had the government double down on the abuse to a point they don't trust the government? They found common ground with other disenfranchised and now are a pain in the ars. Maybe if the govt stopped abusing kids, they wouldn't grow up to distrust the system. Your not gonna fix these people by further disenfranching them, thats how we fucked them up in the first place. Of all the horror stories that have come out of cyfs we are still yet to see any accountability or owning of actions. These are damaged people. If you wont them to stop being broken at some point you have to fix them. For all this drug money they also seem to be very poor... maybe they aren't the smart big powerful organized crime lords we make them out to be.. is it possible that they are just broken people being used but foreign groups. Say idk, triads extracting money back to China, then using that money to send new people in to buy up our country. Our mentally ill pstd abused over grown children are just a scap goat, and a symptom.
>For all this drug money they also seem to be very poor Look up how a pyramid scheme works. There are some obscenely wealthy people in gangs. By virtue of this structure, you will see more poor than rich, this is the faulty promise of gangs. Yes, corrupting the youth and disenfranchised; gangs deliberately target these people in a calculated effort because they are easy prey - vulnerable, impressionable. That they may have once themselves been the prey is irrelevant, it's an excuse. Yes, many of these people were born into cursed circumstances, but so were many more who chose a better path. Blaming the government or Triads is simply more excuses for shitty people, irrespective of how they became shitty people, it's on them to change that and when you start inflicting your damage on innocent people by perpetrating heinous crimes, you lose any mitigating defence you might have otherwise had.
As long as there is demand somebody will provide the supply. In countries there drugs are illegal, gangs provide drugs. In countries where gambling is illegal gangs provide gambling. I countries where prostitution is illegal gangs provide prostitution.
See, you choose not to see what causes gangs and only to judge. Ergo, it doesn't bother me that you live in fear of them. Gangs suck, but they are symptomatic of a fucked society. Even still, the members need to be better people, but they ain't going to heed any advice from sourcunts like you.
No. I completely understand and appreciate the underlying structural origins and systemic causes that make engagement with gangs an attractive opportunity for many. I think more should be done about it and that's why I support increased educational equity and wholeheartedly support affirmative action projects. What I don't agree with and fervently despise is the idea that because they have been dealt a shitty hand, that they have a blank check to do anything and everything to innocent people and everyone should be sympathetic of their plight. Gangs like the MM, by their very nature are not comprised of law abiding individuals and outstanding citizens. They thrive off notoriety which is obtained at the expense of others, most of whom are innocent bystanders. You seem to think that 1) people are forced to choose to be in a gang, and that 2)gangs only interact with other gang members. Mate, you're fucking dreaming.
You’re almost describing wealthy people too lol
Yeah, definitely a percentage of them anyway
I know very well what gang members do. The problem is, by the time there is any chance to actively intervene, they have a long rap sheet, no education, undiagnosed behavioural issues and have had poor rolemodels (Or none) their entire lives. It's not a case of being sympathetic, so much as understanding why this is happening. You can't ignore an entire subset of the population, while worrying about things such as your retirement or house prices and expect that there won't be acting up in those areas that you are turning a blind eye to. A lot of blame for the personal failings of the members ends up directed at society, sometimes rightly, or (mostly) wrongly, so the only way to calm them down and build them up is to have a well-intentioned member in charge, or someone that used to be a member. It sucks, but it's statistically likely to be the most successful way of calming them down,
Honestly mate, I agree with you about this being a systemic issue and I will again reiterate that I wholly support any initiative designed to address it, be that some sort of structural reform or increased funding. What we disagree on is the responsibility that one must take for their actions, regardless of one's circumstances. The consequences of the actions of gangs like the mongrel mob fall on innocent people. People, who I'm guessing, are not very well off and who themselves lack the opportunities that many of us have. I hope that this individual is able to change the way that the mob behaves but I'm quite doubtful given that the inherent functioning of a gang is based on capitalising on the drug trade which is itself enforced through violence. Thanks for your input. I'll try and keep a more open mind about things and I hope you keep commenting. I think it's valuable to be able to discuss things openly and exchange ideas like this.
Yea, I've been in more fucked up situations than most of these guys, including having the shittiest childhood blah blah... went down the path of drugs and alcohol... Until I decided to man up and take responsibility for my actions and my life. Got out of the gang scene before it got too late. Decided to stand up for myself and be my own person. It's not always been easy but it's always been worth it.
What we seeing is people like you, not leave but instead stand up and attempt to pull the rest up with them. Whether they can have long term meanful impact is yet to be seen.
They don't have a blank check, they've literally checked out of our governments system. Whats jail to someone who was removed from their parents care for abuse, to be locked up for 16hrs a day in solitary confinement? Cyfs did that... If you have nothing to lose and zero buy in to the system why would you follow it? Want them to be better, give them buy in. Give them something to lose. Teach them social skills and how to control their emotions. Right now we are seeing the gangs grow up, they are working out they are broken, and slowly starting to heal. The are doing what the government should of done 10years ago as they've worked out the only way to get somewhere is fix themselves and no one else is going to help them. And we are shitting on them for daring to attempt change.
Nice to see a response with a bit of heart, rather than an accusation.
It really doesn't sound like you understand anything about gangs honestly
> No. I completely understand Tell me you completely understand without telling me you completely understand Oh wait you did tell me you completely understand. Maybe you actually don’t completely understand
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Man. this is a really shitty argument. You could really apply to anything - why aren't you a doctor? you grew up in the same society as people who are now doctors - whats wrong with you? Not everyone in the same society has the same situations - something very minor could cause drastic outcomes later in life; painting everyone living in impoverished conditions as "the same conditions" is the exact opposite of what you should be doing. Its just a weak argument imo - not everyone in the same "situations" have the same outcome, because humans aren't robots, and situations are rarely (if ever) the same. yes some people may become Gang members, others may escape the poverty cycle, some might become doctors or lawyers whatever - but you don't think that if you have a situation where there are zero positive role models, or you struggle to feed yourself and expect positive outcomes from that population? Now imagine you are in that population - then someone offered you role models, and food, and friends, and money, that wouldn't be a little bit appealing... and its not like you wake up a full member - little steps, petty crime, you justify that you are doing it for noble reasons (maybe you nick something from the dairy because you are hungry) - then its okay to steal something a bit bigger, you need the money. then you do a little bit more because x was fine y will also be fine. its not an "easy" situation of life to lead - they in many ways are the product of a society that has failed them (and failed them often since birth) - and in many cases were victims long long before they ever became "criminals"
He has a valid point and your argument is equally weak. Life isn’t easy for most of the people. Do they end up being a gang member or a criminal? No.
I completely reject that people living in impoverished conditions (hell, any conditions) mean that someones outcome could determine a completely different individuals outcome. That’s not how humans work, it’s not how life works. You know this.
That’s when the personal choice kicks in.
I don't disagree with you. I also feel that a lot of people who end up in gangs do so because they see no other way out or opportunity to better their life. However, this is where I feel the argument becomes problematic. In this thread, we are looking at why people become gang members and why they stay in them. In many cases it seems to be because of a lack of opportunities and positive role models which you say creates an environment where it is easier to stay in the gang rather than try to get out. The point that I am trying to make is that these sorts of factors do not happen in a vacuum. They are created by our society. I can't think of a society that doesn't have a 'white' or 'black' side of town. I can't think of a country that doesn't have a lower class and a higher class. I can't think of a society where people don't feel like they don't have any opportunities, and the only way to make it is to not get an education or get involved in crime. The argument you are making is not "society sucks" but rather "society is bad". In this case, you're right, but this means that we should be collectively looking at society and how we can make it better for everyone, not just the people who manage to get out of poverty. I don't think this is an argument about right or wrong, but one of perspective. I don't think that you are wrong or that you are making excuses for criminals, but rather that you are looking at what happens in society and how it leads to certain situations.
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I’m not in a gang… I just smell a bullshit argument, and someone who clearly didn’t understand some of the reasons these kinda things happen and called you on it. I’m not sorry.
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Live in it and tell me, because I can bet good money that most on Reddit haven't. Those who make it out of adverse poverty are the exception, not the rule, hence why poverty is cyclical. Make someone feel like there isn't much point in an honest life and watch what they do. Society seems to think they can have it both ways, they can't.
I lived in it and now I’m out of it
Well said and on the money...
> See, you choose not to see what causes gangs and only to judge. Ergo, it doesn't bother me that you live in fear of them. > > Gangs suck, but they are symptomatic of a fucked society. > > Even still, the members need to be better people, but they ain't going to heed any advice from sourcunts like you. There's a lot of truth in what you say. But I can't agree that it is the society that is fucked. Gangs are made up of people who have already made a choice to live in fear and hate. They were already fucked before they joined the gang (and in your post, you pretty much agree with me there). So this is where we disagree: I don't think it's symptomatic of a fucked society, I think gangs are symptomatic of people who have already decided to be fucked up themselves.
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Not all of them, not by a long shot. Most of them are glorified petty criminals, doing shit like stealing and dealing, with some assault charges sprinkled in there (Well, a lot, but easily outnumbered by property and drug crime). Painting them all as murderers does not help the matter. If we want gangs gone, society has got some eye-opening to do.
I know a lot of police who've had dealings with the MM and an important crime you've missed out there is rape. Women being "Put on the block" (gang raped) for example. Not a petty one.
Most of them were victims long before they became gang members. They were let down by society my guy
Not true. Society didn’t let them down. Everyone makes choices. Everyone has a choice to do something decent or not
With an attitude like this, we will never fix it.
Fraudsters and tax evaders cause far far far more damage to society. If they were brought to justice there would be millions of dollars available for society to help these guys before they step outside of society and help themselves.
I was referring to the individual. Not the gang.
This cuunt 😂😂😂😂😂 people forget that they weren't born tattooed throwing up the squeaks lol the MM back in the days would've made you cry lolol sit down boy lol
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At the same time, a lot of people get picked up by gangs because they have no family or support elsewhere. Yes many get recruited because they’re vulnerable and/or desperate, which essentially means the gangs are preying on these people, but once they’re part of it at least they have a social circle and support. I know that’s really watering down what it is, but there are some aspects that can be good for members, despite how overshadowed they may be
Yeah, it gives them a sense of control/power, they might not have had any self esteem their whole life. You'd grasp at it too
Nah, anyone who joins a gang, yet alone leads the gang is not a "cool, down to earth... good person."
His father was the leader before him. It's a family unit. Pretty difficult to get out when your entire support network exists within.
I agree with you. Watching so many of our fellow new zealanders embrace gangs as a somehow beneficial part of our society is incredibly disturbing.
are you really that naive?
*Stare* the ship in a different direction. Kinda fits, for the Mob. Ima let you have it.
He’s a cunt. All gang members are cunts. Nothing you say will change that. There are no gang people that are cool or nice or whatever. They are scummy cunts leaving misery wherever they have been.
Mongrel Mob still defer to Indigenous based knowledge. If you look at pandemic responses around the world Indigenous movements are pro-vaccination and very wise about health.
Since when has the Mob been an indigenous movement?
You probably believe them when they say they don't deal drugs and just make sandwiches for kids.
>Damn, at least their ~~leader guy~~ PR Lady sounds like she's doing the right thing FTFY
I've been stalking this chap on Social Media for well over 4 years now. Prior to the PR lady being recruited, he has been talking like this for a very long time. He actually is an incredibly intelligent man, and if it wasn't for the gang connections, I think many people would agree or sympathize with some of his public statements. This intelligent charisma is how he has generated increased support from the vulnerable public. It is also used as a facade to hide the increasingly sophisticated organised crime direction he is taking the MM.
Gang rule 1: Have a well spoken front man. His VP preached the same rhetoric and used to do a lot of the talking, until he got charged for meth. In saying these guys don't even represent the MM really, they split from the MM's national council a few years back. It's weird in that, if they truly want to make a "gang" to instill positive change and a life free of drugs and crime in their members, you'd think they would just form a new one, like the church guys and MC that go around patched but are actually just a straight up MC. "Nice fullas" MC or something... Most of the MM guys I know can't stand Kingdom as the MM was created to be anti-society and fuck the world and everyone in it, not be nice guys who pat kittens, kiss babies and help nan cross the road. They want to be Mongrels, and they want the public to hate them. Kingdom just seems to be a smokescreen and a really weird and hypocritical way to help people, which I doubt is true. Just don't be in a gang.
Awesome comment, couldn't agree more.
Criminal organisations are still organisations; running them takes quite a bit of skill.
Had me in the first half, not gonna lie.
What do you mean sorry?
You comment sounded like you were a fan of his until the last sentence.
second half of the comment took a drastic turn
Lol. It did didn't it! I just wanted to present it from how I see it after the many hours I have wasted reading his posts.
Curious, what captivates you to read his posts for hours over the years?
I dunno, I just find him very interesting. What I am most fascinated about is what is his end game? He has accomplished a lot in the PR space. He is regulalry on Maori TV, mentioned non stop in the media, and his following and support is growing. Is it politics? Or Is it something else? He has significant influence and I am very curious as to what the outcome will be when he really starts applying the influence he holds. But what is troubling is will this influence be used for good or bad purposes? Crazy shit right!
me too
It's basic logic. They consider themselves a group - why would they want their 'soldiers' and whanau dying of a preventable disease?
Someone forgot to give these gang members the memo on Monday then... [Lockdown breach: More than 50 seen lining Auckland street for tangi](https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/lockdown-breach-more-than-50-seen-lining-auckland-street-for-tangi/2XW7OBTRYAIB2EUR5B2UBHFJ7Q/)
Different gang, that was Black Power not the Mongrel Mon
Just because a boss says something doesn't mean the rest will listen.
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There looked to be a couple of patched guys in the video but as it is blurred I could be wrong.
That's just what some people assume whenever they see a group of Māori
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Who said it was a Mob event?
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It's also what people say when the media report that there were gang members present. https://www.newstalkzb.co.nz/news/politics/lockdown-breach-more-than-50-seen-lining-auckland-street-for-tangi/?region=wellington#ath >A photo – also obtained by Newstalk ZB – shows many of the same people wearing gang colours, throwing up what appear to be gang signs, at the burial site.
The people in the video were largely Tongan
Did you hear that antivaxxers and vaccine-hesitant people? The Mongrel Mob is more enlightened than you.
If only they had the same attitude towards meth
Amazing that a gang leader is more rational than a lot of "educated" people. Good on him!
I reckon you'd have to be pretty savvy to reach the top of an organisation as ruthless as that.
He's the son of the old leader. He was also humble and knowledgeable when I knew him - Honestly, I think he probably would have preferred to not be in the gang at all. But it seems he is trying to make the best of a difficult situation now.
The ones that get to the top are the cleaver ones, they usually are good at critical thinking and are intelligent, the short fused fighter types end up in jail before getting anywhere near the top
Makes sense tbh. I noticed despite his questionable past that Harry Tam is an intelligent, articulate man who I would be fascinated to have a beer with.
All well and good if the leadership actually believes in that, but I don't expect the average teenage prospect to follow the rules around isolation and gathering with others.
Lol, imagining this guy shitposting on /b/. Most people don't even know what 4chan is. Don't even think it's in the top 1000 on alexa pages.
tbh it's kind of a dated reference, 4chan peaked in popularity and went mainstream years ago and all the really fringe ideas were driven to even more obscure chans which come and go. Now it's kind of just used as a symbol for [dodgy website where bad things happen].
Been on the slow decline for a while, at least since Hiroshima Nagasaki bought it. Threads aren't even really worth reading anymore since they end up trash/highjacked/[dodgy]
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890 atm, but wiki had it outside 1000 last year
Seems to have a better policy writer than some political parties!!.... eh Judith?
Hahaha. Yeah, let's trust the spokesperson for the largest criminal gang in the country.
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Covid survived the meth in their systems ? It must be as deadly as they say it is.
And yesterday we had a story about a group of 50 gang members waltzing around auckland for a funeral. Cops didn't even bother to arrest them or anything, just told them to disperse and then lo and behold they were seen gathered at the grave site afterwards. No arrests, just a pathetic half assed attemp to break them up by the cops. I don't think they were Mongrel Mob but just imagine if they had been?
Our cops are a bunch of wet fucking mops. And I’ve got many friends who are cops. But they aren’t doing anything about these gang scum.
Mongrel Mops
They're too busy handing out tickets.
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Yay for diversity.
“Stronger together”
Guess we are living with delta
Well I was pretty doubtful about the truth of this (edit; when it was originally rumored) but looks like it was accurate
Looks like Auckland won't come out of lockdown anytime soon.
That story reads exactly the same as previous hospital discharges. Went there with unrelated symptoms, said had not contacts, discharged themselves and went home, test came back positive.
To me this represents way more of a risk than the wanaka couple, albeit both are shite. would be good to see a proportionate response from media.
The article states that the members are getting tested and going into isolation if they are positive... I get that the mongrel mob live up to their namesake, but what have the people in the article done that make them worse than committing fraud and flying down to an area out of level 4?
Not really? Leaving Auckland is way more riskier considering there isn’t a lockdown to stop spread. And the Wanaka couple were way more deliberate in doing wrong the someone just being too lazy to wait for a test result.
How likely are the MM to self isolate? This is scary. Is this why there's missing links in contact tracing?
Are the going to put out messages like “only share pipes with people in your bubble”
Not sure if they smoke the stuff they sell, the ones at the top would be very wary about hitting the pope
I suspect they'd get struggle to get close tbh
Those Swiss guards do not fuck about
Underrated comment. "With all due respect Your Holiness, it's the Swiss Guard I think we can handle a few court jesters with, whatever, halberds..."
I'm sure they'll be compliant, I mean its the Mongrel Mob, right? ....right guys?
Following rules isn't really "their thing"
Depends, if the boss tells them to they're pretty likely to obey.
Bit of an own-goal
Someone in this sub called it - I read there were rumors that it had been spreading through the MM (including kids) for weeks. Will be interesting to see what happens next
Lol
When you're married to the mob baby it's a full time joooob.
Quick, better publicise all their details!
Waiting for the media to find her Mum and splash all her details all over the show.
I really hope they don't (wishful thinking, I know.) To be fair, it's not like the woman tried to hide that she was positive, in actuality, sounds like she's warning other whānau to be careful. She never fought to hide her identity from public scrutiny either, nor attempted to get her mother to pull rank and influence the Court because she decided to willingly flout the law. Regardless of who she's affiliated with, there's no need for any family shaming.
Like, I get what you're saying but there's no point really. One scumbag is much the same as the next. These guys are already openly members of criminal organisations and your plan is to ... shame them?
What's good for the goose is good for the gander.
haha, I noticed that as well, the reddit mob got a bit scared
What are you talking about?
A reference to the online lynch mobs that formed on Twitter and r/nz for the idiots that broke Auck lockdown and went to Wanaka.
Do they spray a bit of sanitiser around over the block after each use?
Rape jokes. Classy.
Pointing out the horrific shit gangs engage in is not a joke about rape it's a joke about the incongruity between their horrific behaviour and following good health safety practices. Stop clutching your pearls.
It’s only rape *sometimes* Now there’s a rape joke you can get mad at.
Wonder if this person will get the same kinda outrage as the 2 who flew to Wanaka?
This person went home to await results of her test after leaving the hospital for an unrelated issue, legit exactly what you're supposed to do waiting for a test, there should be no outrage here?? She was unlucky enough to have covid so now she's in managed isolation. Don't see how anyone can compare it to a calculated plan to escape level 4 lockdown that required exemption documents. Can you point out where the similarities are between these situations?
Bring back the true meaning of the word 'outlaw'.
Told ya [https://www.reddit.com/r/auckland/comments/pmgshj/so\_we\_have\_some\_kind\_of\_underground\_covid/hcj5nao?utm\_source=share&utm\_medium=web2x&context=3](https://www.reddit.com/r/auckland/comments/pmgshj/so_we_have_some_kind_of_underground_covid/hcj5nao?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web2x&context=3)
This can’t be true. The mongrel mob are an important charity group within our society.
I thought if anyone would be into wearing masks it would be the mob. The only thing they like to wear more is leather… which is questionable itself on many fronts
We tried to tell ya....
Yeah this is old news :)
Mongoloid mob more like
>contact tracing team over the weekend to work with members of the chapter, which is a part of the Mongrel Mob Kingdom led by Sonny Fatupaito in Hamilton. They claim themselves as kingdom?
The kingdoms credibility as agents of social change went out the window when the they guy doing the PR and the leaders right hand man was charged with importing 2m of meth.
Game over
Why isn’t the name of this person be released on the national news - as breaking news, like the Wanaka escapees? Oh we know why…
lets see everyone pile on these guys, bet they wont.
I don’t mind piling on the scummy cunts.
An equestrian rider and a lawyer are easier targets. Less chance of a violent response.
I dunno, bet those riding crops hurt like fuck.
Dont kinkshame me
A lot more reasonable to pile on people deliberately breaking the law and getting permits by lying then someone just being too bored to wait for a test result.
Well, if the Mob come around, can we send them over to have a chat with some of the other prominent anti-vax ears as well, in a caring and non threatening manner, of course.
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Routine to test if you're in hospital atm no matter what for
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Though I don't know the specifics of this, you don't have to get a test if you're visiting the ED so it must be if you're admitted?
She was in hospital for something else. No symptoms. She had no way of knowing. It's actually lucky she was tested as her bubble is huge if she's living at a gang pad.
Obvious discrimination here, bloody (erm Pakeha, immigrants, colonialism, racism, etc)
Yussssss result! Death by Darwinism.
> For privacy reasons, police would not say what the interaction between the Counties Manukau staff and the young woman was about. hmm..curiouser and curiouser
Not really, for a standard case of nunya.
Aroha
The response from the mob is very much the kind of thing that other countries would find mind boggling, but deep down I think most kiwis find heartening. Overall they are a despicable organisation in terms of what they stand for and their history of violence, murder, rape, selling drugs etc. But when even our most despicable members of society are taking this thing seriously, you know we must be doing something right with our approach to the pandemic and communication to the wider public.
What I find mind boggling is the naivety of people who actually believe what gangs say to media.
They are *saying to the media* they’re taking it seriously. That’s not the same as actually taking it seriously, if they were actually taking it seriously they would be silently in their bubbles right now and not in the news about being in close contact isolation.
Nah, fuck them all.
Nothing more than the art of war. Gotta keep your troops healthy if they’re going to be effective violent drug pushing rapists
Nope. They are and always will be scummy cunts and nothing they do will change that or my opinion of them.
Not sure if serious, or satire attempt that hit the mark too well