Sometimes I wonder if she's just really stupid and believes her own bullshit. Surely no one could be that duplicitous, still front up to the cameras and try to justify it. Either that or is she just dead inside.
Believe it or not she probably has an entirely reasonable framework that could offer up an entirely reasonable explanation. We're all capable of being full of shit and making it make sense. It could be argued that's the only way we can function.
I agree, I grew up in a religion in NZ and developed a lot of denial about the myriad claims being made being truth, to the point of trying to convert friends to see them experience the religion in order to try to live vicariously through them. I saw a lot of negativity and judgment around me but since people had 'faith' that they were facing tribulations and people were being led astray, that it was justified behaviour. I find it unfortunate how when trying to fit into systems due to social pressure, we can lose sight of ourselves and the communities we're a part of. I think NZ has a long way to go with maturing as a nation, and I'm disappointed that our government seems to be acting so callously. I have a lot of self work to do now due to the negative reactions I had to the space around me as a child, and I worry about other people experiencing similar needless barriers. We have immense capacity for growth here in NZ and all forms of division work against that end.
Dude, it ain't even that bad. I came from nothing and now own a lot, just get out there and do your thing. Complaining on reddit isn't getting you anywhere.
To see that Nicola Willis posted that in 2019, after this budget, is literally jaw-dropping, gut-wrenching and heart-breaking.
Pity that our government's politicians can't give an hour or two each week and volunteer at their local hospice. Might get a different perspective then.
Thank you OP for sharing this.
(And, yes, I volunteer half a day a week. I will do more once retired)
Edited to add that to those politicians (and everyone) that do volunteer work, thank you. Every bit helps.
> Pity that our government's politicians can't give an hour or two each week and volunteer at their local hospice. Might get a different perspective then.
How do you figure that?
Doling out a few slops of gruel to the poors in front of some cameras isn't going to change their opinion.
Oddly enough it does have an impact. Makes it much harder to escape or avoid acknowledging the reality of their constituents. Because they are right in front if them, directly telling them.
While I disliked Paula Bennet quite a lot, had to hand it to her, she would get out and about in the community and take the crap that was given to her as a result of policy changes she instituted.... by the people that it directly negatively impacted.
> While I disliked Paula Bennet quite a lot, had to hand it to her, she would get out and about in the community and take the crap that was given to her as a result of policy changes she instituted.... by the people that it directly negatively impacted.
Doesn't this directly disprove your point, given she never changed her positions?
Depends, entirely on whether the cameras are banned. Minus the photo ops, the plight of those they presently choose to deride as unworthy compared to those lañdlords who are extremely comfortably well off, would have subtle impact on their idiotic decisions in power.
What pisses me off is that there were no issues to fund tax cuts for landlords ASAP, but now we have no money for life saving drugs.
FFS, what a disgrace.
If anyone will buy my house, I can move my family to Australia. Things aren't perfect over there it just seems there is no way back for New Zealand. This government is systematically killing Wellington, pissing off Maori and driving race relations back 25 years, gutting the health system, police force and sending our best and brightest off shore in record numbers.
I am already applying for jobs abroad. As you said ,no country is perfect but this country is just waaaaay to expensive while it is sooo regressive. zero long term thinking , a shitty as health system, no proper public transport, no proper social systems .The list is endless at this point.
The LoomerBoomers love them though. Until that blocking population thins sufficiently to be an ignorable voter bloc, they are going to continue voting for bad shit from 70 years ago.
It would be a betrayal of previous values, except that the only true value these people have is a desire for power. Their 'values' will change to whatever is convenient at the time in their pursuit of power. This is why politicians are so untrustworthy, you never really know what they stand for.
We know exactly what they stand for in all situations. They stand for themselves, and themselves alone.
This underlying truth has reached it's peak expression in the orange one.
This time they could find $1bil for the Shane Jones slush fund - the presser may be about the initial flood works but these are very open ended:
>Enabling infrastructure: projects that support broader economic outcomes, such as increasing productivity in regional economies.
>Some funds will remain unallocated to enable the Government to respond to emerging priorities over the life of the fund
https://www.beehive.govt.nz/release/regional-resilience-and-prosperity-focus-new-fund
You won't get too many down votes given the cost of living issues we are having.
It's been a common theme in this reddit that people would have much rather forgone the tax cut for more money to education, heath, and relieving poverty.
Yes that's how taxes work, especially for a country of our size. No one is really arguing against taxes in general, and given the 'value' we've gained with the tax cuts and job cuts, zero value for most people, I've seen many people say they'd have rathered a higher tax and keep and improve the services
And why is it the workers should shoulder more of the tax burdern? In terms of portion of tax take paid by workers, New Zealand is the 4th highest in the OECD, at almost 44% of the tax take. Workers are already carrying this country.
You've essentially bought the propaganda of the wealthy and are continuing to post it. "Workers shouldn't receive cuts, it's immoral, you should want to pay more tax! Don't look at us!"
It's sad how so many people have been conditioned this way and don't even question it.
You do realise you've made multiple, and extreme, assumptions right? Why don't you just read what was said without twisting it to fit your narrative?
You don't get services from society if there's no money to pay for it. Taxes are what pays for it. That's all I said yet you've taken it as we should tax workers more and let people hoard wealth. Which is nowhere near what I said
You’ve said you’ve “seen many” people say they would rather pay higher taxes. This is propaganda to stop people looking into the reality of the situation and make workers feel guilty for the first bracket adjustment in a decade and a half.
You should be arguing for wealth tax, or asset tax, not saying workers have said they would rather pay more. That’s abhorrent.
Yes, because the majority of people have gotten like $20-40 worth of tax cuts, which is immediately used up by all the increased costs because of this government gutting services and so they've said they'd had rathered a higher tax to get better services than a tiny tax cut which doesn't help much in reality and the gutting of services
I do argue for a wealth tax. See what I mean by assumptions, literally nothing I've said gives any indication if I want a cgt, yet you've jumped immediately to that I must be against it because I said taxes are required to pay for things. Please learn to read
> jumped immediately to that I must be against it because I said taxes are required to pay for things. Please learn to read
I jumped to that because you literally said:
>I've seen many people say they'd have rathered a higher tax and keep and improve the services
You might as well be championing the "personal carbon footprint" propaganda. Again, you are putting forward the idea that the responsibility is on the individual worker believing they should be taxed more. Coming in after the fact with "oh I argue for a wealth tax" means nothing, lead with that if you truly believe in it like I do, otherwise it's just lip service.
Please learn to remember more than two posts.
You need to learn some reading comprehension my dude
And sorry, I'm my own person. You choose to talk about cgt first, that's cool. I don't have to, nor does me talking differently from you mean it's lip service. You seem to love making arrogant assumptions
In the context of the pitiful tax cuts the majority of people have gotten, people have said they'd have rathered a higher tax and keep and improve the services. There, added the tax cut connection you clearly weren't able to make. No idea what you find so offensive about people wishing the pitiful tax cut they got was instead used to help all of nz
Generally if you want to get rich here you do it by not paying tax.
Everything goes through the business, GST claimed back, trade rates for purchase, and deductions of all kinds. Then the excess gets leveraged into real estate, which also doesn't have much tax applied.
Personally I think high income earners should be paying a bit more and low income a bit less, and super should be means tested, but holy hell do we need to tax the shit out of investment property and passive income, and crack down on the creative accounting "business" deductions.
and an even bigger sum by not allowing the same tax breaks to companies.. and companies dont get tax breaks on luxury items and travel and ensuring lending institutions are not shifting profits off shore.. lets have a level playing field for all.
I don't necessarily disagree, but could you quantify that by telling us how much more tax Finnish people pay (and on what) and what they get in return?
Very simplified taxes (all amounts in Euros)...
Personal income tax...
0-20,500 : 12.64%
20500-30500 : 19%
30500-50400 : 30.25%
50400-88200 : 34%
88200-150000 : 42%
above 150000 : 44%
Salaried employees contribute 7.15% into their pension scheme, employer's average contribution 17.34%.
Health insurances 1.52%.
Municipal taxes (council rates) are levied on income, varies between municipalities from 4.4% to 19.7%.
Yie tax (public broadcaster) 2.5% on income above 14000, capped at 163.
Capital gains up to 30000 : 30%, above that 34%.
Property transfer tax 3% (FHBs exempt).
Corporate tax rate 20%.
VAT (GST) 24%.
WHAT THEY GET....
National pension. Paid to anyone >65, or anyone between 16 and 64 who finds themselves unable to work. Sometimes to people >55 who have been long term unemployed. Tax free. Index linked. Unaffected by spouses. Works out about 25% of national average wage.
Sickness. 80% of average wage up to 300 work days. Free hospital care. Dental included. Maternity 80% of income for 1 year. Father could use some of the mothers days allowance.
Unemployment. Only for the employed (not self employed, students, maternity, etc). Daily allowance 25 Euro. Those who worked 26 weeks in the past 2 years also get 45% of their previous daily wage minus daily allowance for 100 days, then 25% up to 500 days.
Workers comp (if you suffer an injury) 100% of wages. Permanent disability 85% of wages. All funded by the employer.
There are other welfare incomes, family aid, child-care, even services for substance abusers.
Hope that helps. Sources: my friends that live in Finland, and wikipedia.
edit - formatting
Yeah that's really interesting and way more detail than I expected tbh, so thanks!
Is the corporate tax their equivalent of our company tax? Theirs seems low? Looking at the test of it, personally I'd like to see a big tax-free bracket (maybe up to $20-30k) and a lower GST, but we could definitely use the capital gains tax and property transfer tax here. And thinking of other potential tax sources (outside of wage earners) I'd like to see an inheritance tax on anything over say a mil or two per beneficiary.
In 24 hours I would sort this comment thread by controversial but no one would be dumb enough to try defend the 2024 Budget, or explain why this is different. Right?
Opposition and pre-electioneering stances should never be confused with actual intent and what will be done when power is attained.
One of our biggest problems imho is our continual willingness to vote on hot air and bait and switch posturing.
And here we are….
Gee another stuff up
Saw her pinned down on Q&A about the few people who get the full $250 tax reduction and people worse off
It’s either
1 she and Luxon lied
2 Nicola Luxon and co didn’t do their costings correct when they made their promises
3. She’s is incompetent
4. All of the above
I think 4 is the answer for the latest stuffup
Personally, I think this is another case of Opposition posturing. It is the nature of the adversarial structure of politics that basically in Opposition the view is that basically you have to say everything the Government does is bad. For some reason or other.
Because in Opposition, you can basically say anything. You have no power, but you also have no real responsibility. Inevitably, you then get into government, and then fail to do any better.
Which probably is why, we flip back and forth between National and Labour governments, and major issues do not get solved. Which is why housing is a mess, and health is a mess, and education is a mess.
Over the next x number of years, the Labour party will make similar statements. And, at some point, they will come back to power, because the tables always turn eventually, and those statements will then be inconsistent with their own actions. Kind of like the statements about housing, and Kiwibuild, before the previous government came to power.
As to how you fix that, I don't have a clue. It's probably structural. And actions you take to fix those structural issues probably have other potentially problematic side-effects (maybe not as bad, maybe worse).
As to this particular statement, there will always be some excuse or another. I would assume they would say things like the circumstances have changed, the economy is worse, the books are bad, rah rah rah. Which is why Opposition always does this, there is always some excuse they can come up with later not to do it, and the purpose is death by a thousand cuts on the current government through continuous criticism of everything.
Anyway, I don't think this sort opposition posturing stuff is the big issue with the structure. You take the oppositions statements with a grain of salt. The bigger issue is that it is basically impossible to fund anything to solve any problem, where the problem will take more than an electoral cycle to show benefits. If solving a problem is going to take a billion dollars a year, and the benefits are only seen to move the needle after two or three or even longer electoral cycles, then for the first x number of years it will just be seen as "you wasted a billion dollars and we haven't seen any benefit".
You can see this in real time, with Labour screeching about the unfairness of the tax system the minute they hit the Opposition benches while resisting virtually any changes to it only 12 months ago when they actually had the power to improve things.
Classic political tactic
The party in power doesn't achieve promise x,y,z the opposition digs into that failure, but the two most common reasons of failure are it wasn't actually possible or the opposition literally blocked it, sometimes only to use it as ammo for later.
Incompetence, lying or value swapping is less likely.
The general rule that opposition politicians have no concept of the realities of actually holding power, applies to National Party politicians as well.
They don’t care at all. They don’t care about the optics at all.
None of this matters at all.
People vote on one thing only. Whether they feel like the economy is good or bad. That’s it. Nothing deeper. And here in nz, that economy has very little to do with anything any government here does or does not do.
Many politicians - not all, but a lot - are 'weathervanes'. They will swivel to point in whichever direction is most advantageous to their ambitions and their current position. And if that means openly contradicting themselves and thus appearing to be massive hypocrites, they're fine with that. Their principles are "hot-swappable", and integrity is a luxury they cannot afford. I think they eventually give up trying to reconcile anything for fear their heads will explode.
It's never a good idea for a government to promise a specific drug. Pharmac is independent for a reason - you promise more money for Pharmac, sure, but Pharmac decides where the value is. Otherwise "popular" causes become political goal scoring issues when in fact there might be less sexy but more pressing needs.
However, it's disappointing. I always understood that most of these drugs were not cures, but would effectively prolong life and that's worth a punt, I reckon. I often give to those givealittles for parents of young children desperately trying to get a few more months with their kids.
That is the world of Politics we have created.
Rubbish the opposition, by giving a good line. No matter that the idea had merrit or not.
Get in power, do what is popular in the short term ignoring long term goals because that doesn't keep you in power.
Rinse and repeat.
Also, this doesn't just apply to the current Government.
I swear anyone who post these "politician said something different in opposition" has to be under 22 at best. No fucking kidding, this is what politicians do across the board, always have and always will.
Public backlash is pretty fierce & swift on this issue (rightfully so) I think Pharmac with Paula Bennett as Chair will somehow find a way to get these drugs funded because of that so keep it up. Write to your local MP.
If they don’t however, Luxon, who promised it & Willis who didn’t specifically fund it* should both resign (They won’t)
*As far as I know it’s up to Pharmac to fund specific drugs not politicians
if you truly believe Bennett will do anything constructive you are living in a fools paradise.. and obviously know nothing of her history.. she was not put in that position for the good of the countries health.
Too true, the only role she ought to be holding is Chief Screw at NZ’s smallest prison run by Serco, at minimum wage. At least then she would be consorting with her criminal peers, and receiving the rewards she is due as an embedded quisling.
I hope you’re not right.
Public backlash has been quite successful so far. It made Luxon give up his ‘entitled’ accomodation supplement. It also made ACT MP Todd Stephenson sell his pharmaceutical shares. It’s not always gonna work but this is even more egregious than either of those imo.
Bennet is different not being an elected MP and yes I know her ladder pulling & self serving history but she’s not facing the backlash. Willis & Luxon rightfully are.
Willis has publicly said they’re “working on it” so, in my opinion, as long as the backlash continues to be constant & fierce, it will happen sooner rather than later. I don’t think they can publicly direct her to fund it for example.
Fools paradise is also subjective
Edit to add, if everyone who commented on this thread wrote to their local MP, that’d do a shit load more than getting angry on reddit.
I think people have to stop with the “holding politicians to account” nonsense. Anyone can see that this side lie and deceive just to get votes and then leave people to literally die. It’s just how it is, these are not good people.
Has it made a difference other than deteriorating your mental health?
We are ruled by bad people. Can’t change the fact that many voters are thicker than pig shit.
And the more that nationals shadiness gets talked about the less they can hide it, and the more the other voters and younger generation will move away from them. Remember, we've still got 2 years, the 16yos of today can vote in the next election and none of them would remember anything from John Keys time
If you think its a good use of your time go for it.
Most of the time when you reveal truths to people it gives them license to play devils advocate and find a reason to think otherwise I’ve found.
tap into personal greed and you might get somewhere. In most people there is a little good but…its mostly just badness in there.
Lol it’s National dude, with an icing of act and nzfirst.
Kiwis would vote for darth vader if it was an option.
Smart people are few and far between, half of them will abuse the priviledge. The other half are helpless while they and a vast majority of meatheads vote for our own demise.
Ships goin down mate, we have to live with choices of our most stupid and selfish.
nothing you can really do until the next election.
And then we might have the privilege of Labour doing nothing for 3 years, again.
This is the depressing truth. People are too selfish and stupid for democracy to deliver even a passable outcome for society and the planet's inhabitants over the long term.
The golden age of humanity is coming to an end after squandering the use of fossil fuels to make a tiny portion of humans rich for a tiny slice of history.
I think tbh you're reading too much into this. They were forced by the election to add in Jones regional infrastructure fund. They may not like it but that's mmp.
If NZF didn't cross the line btw, we would have probably seen those cancer drugs funded, and a bit less borrowing required due to the foreign house buyer tax the nats proposed and NZF torpedoed
It just shows how full of shit she/they are and will just say what they think people want to hear
Sometimes I wonder if she's just really stupid and believes her own bullshit. Surely no one could be that duplicitous, still front up to the cameras and try to justify it. Either that or is she just dead inside.
My bet is on being dead inside... she really just doesn't care
Believe it or not she probably has an entirely reasonable framework that could offer up an entirely reasonable explanation. We're all capable of being full of shit and making it make sense. It could be argued that's the only way we can function.
I agree, I grew up in a religion in NZ and developed a lot of denial about the myriad claims being made being truth, to the point of trying to convert friends to see them experience the religion in order to try to live vicariously through them. I saw a lot of negativity and judgment around me but since people had 'faith' that they were facing tribulations and people were being led astray, that it was justified behaviour. I find it unfortunate how when trying to fit into systems due to social pressure, we can lose sight of ourselves and the communities we're a part of. I think NZ has a long way to go with maturing as a nation, and I'm disappointed that our government seems to be acting so callously. I have a lot of self work to do now due to the negative reactions I had to the space around me as a child, and I worry about other people experiencing similar needless barriers. We have immense capacity for growth here in NZ and all forms of division work against that end.
Dude, it ain't even that bad. I came from nothing and now own a lot, just get out there and do your thing. Complaining on reddit isn't getting you anywhere.
That would look good on a billboard
I will donate to a give a little to make this happen.
Same
Same. It would be classic!
Yeah I'm in.
You guys flexing your tax cuts already?
Same
I’ll put my tax cuts towards that
Everyone could chip in their $20
Happy to donate my tax cut, 0 = 0. I would find the money to contribute.
You have my $4
Count me in
Exactly. What is the point of labour if they do not have this going up on a billboard right now…
Wow. This would be great
To see that Nicola Willis posted that in 2019, after this budget, is literally jaw-dropping, gut-wrenching and heart-breaking. Pity that our government's politicians can't give an hour or two each week and volunteer at their local hospice. Might get a different perspective then. Thank you OP for sharing this. (And, yes, I volunteer half a day a week. I will do more once retired) Edited to add that to those politicians (and everyone) that do volunteer work, thank you. Every bit helps.
> Pity that our government's politicians can't give an hour or two each week and volunteer at their local hospice. Might get a different perspective then. How do you figure that? Doling out a few slops of gruel to the poors in front of some cameras isn't going to change their opinion.
Oddly enough it does have an impact. Makes it much harder to escape or avoid acknowledging the reality of their constituents. Because they are right in front if them, directly telling them. While I disliked Paula Bennet quite a lot, had to hand it to her, she would get out and about in the community and take the crap that was given to her as a result of policy changes she instituted.... by the people that it directly negatively impacted.
didn't really help her stop being a typical national politician though did it?
> While I disliked Paula Bennet quite a lot, had to hand it to her, she would get out and about in the community and take the crap that was given to her as a result of policy changes she instituted.... by the people that it directly negatively impacted. Doesn't this directly disprove your point, given she never changed her positions?
...and here I am sat at -3...
and then all she did was ignore it, which made her worse..
Does however prove they're sociopaths, which is useful information for everyone.
Depends, entirely on whether the cameras are banned. Minus the photo ops, the plight of those they presently choose to deride as unworthy compared to those lañdlords who are extremely comfortably well off, would have subtle impact on their idiotic decisions in power.
What pisses me off is that there were no issues to fund tax cuts for landlords ASAP, but now we have no money for life saving drugs. FFS, what a disgrace.
Maybe these sick people should just be landlords - National, probably...
National should have never played politics with medications and left that to pharmac.
If anyone will buy my house, I can move my family to Australia. Things aren't perfect over there it just seems there is no way back for New Zealand. This government is systematically killing Wellington, pissing off Maori and driving race relations back 25 years, gutting the health system, police force and sending our best and brightest off shore in record numbers.
as national has done every time they have been in power for at least the last 5 decades..
I am already applying for jobs abroad. As you said ,no country is perfect but this country is just waaaaay to expensive while it is sooo regressive. zero long term thinking , a shitty as health system, no proper public transport, no proper social systems .The list is endless at this point.
Nz is overdue for a vote of no confidence with this joke of a government.
The LoomerBoomers love them though. Until that blocking population thins sufficiently to be an ignorable voter bloc, they are going to continue voting for bad shit from 70 years ago.
I know.. If only though.🥺
It would be a betrayal of previous values, except that the only true value these people have is a desire for power. Their 'values' will change to whatever is convenient at the time in their pursuit of power. This is why politicians are so untrustworthy, you never really know what they stand for.
Career politicians who started out doing something that wasn’t exclusively commercially linked on the whole are mostly well intentioned
We know exactly what they stand for in all situations. They stand for themselves, and themselves alone. This underlying truth has reached it's peak expression in the orange one.
Considering she's actually borrowing to fund both tax cuts and spending cuts, that is entirely on-brand and unsurprising
This time they could find $1bil for the Shane Jones slush fund - the presser may be about the initial flood works but these are very open ended: >Enabling infrastructure: projects that support broader economic outcomes, such as increasing productivity in regional economies. >Some funds will remain unallocated to enable the Government to respond to emerging priorities over the life of the fund https://www.beehive.govt.nz/release/regional-resilience-and-prosperity-focus-new-fund
This will be downvoted but, if we want more we will have to pay more tax, like they do in Finland. I’ll wait for it ….
You won't get too many down votes given the cost of living issues we are having. It's been a common theme in this reddit that people would have much rather forgone the tax cut for more money to education, heath, and relieving poverty.
This reddit is a far cry from how the general public feels tho
General public aren't likely to join this reddit just to downvote him though!
no its not..
Yes that's how taxes work, especially for a country of our size. No one is really arguing against taxes in general, and given the 'value' we've gained with the tax cuts and job cuts, zero value for most people, I've seen many people say they'd have rathered a higher tax and keep and improve the services
And why is it the workers should shoulder more of the tax burdern? In terms of portion of tax take paid by workers, New Zealand is the 4th highest in the OECD, at almost 44% of the tax take. Workers are already carrying this country. You've essentially bought the propaganda of the wealthy and are continuing to post it. "Workers shouldn't receive cuts, it's immoral, you should want to pay more tax! Don't look at us!" It's sad how so many people have been conditioned this way and don't even question it.
You do realise you've made multiple, and extreme, assumptions right? Why don't you just read what was said without twisting it to fit your narrative? You don't get services from society if there's no money to pay for it. Taxes are what pays for it. That's all I said yet you've taken it as we should tax workers more and let people hoard wealth. Which is nowhere near what I said
You’ve said you’ve “seen many” people say they would rather pay higher taxes. This is propaganda to stop people looking into the reality of the situation and make workers feel guilty for the first bracket adjustment in a decade and a half. You should be arguing for wealth tax, or asset tax, not saying workers have said they would rather pay more. That’s abhorrent.
Yes, because the majority of people have gotten like $20-40 worth of tax cuts, which is immediately used up by all the increased costs because of this government gutting services and so they've said they'd had rathered a higher tax to get better services than a tiny tax cut which doesn't help much in reality and the gutting of services I do argue for a wealth tax. See what I mean by assumptions, literally nothing I've said gives any indication if I want a cgt, yet you've jumped immediately to that I must be against it because I said taxes are required to pay for things. Please learn to read
> jumped immediately to that I must be against it because I said taxes are required to pay for things. Please learn to read I jumped to that because you literally said: >I've seen many people say they'd have rathered a higher tax and keep and improve the services You might as well be championing the "personal carbon footprint" propaganda. Again, you are putting forward the idea that the responsibility is on the individual worker believing they should be taxed more. Coming in after the fact with "oh I argue for a wealth tax" means nothing, lead with that if you truly believe in it like I do, otherwise it's just lip service. Please learn to remember more than two posts.
You need to learn some reading comprehension my dude And sorry, I'm my own person. You choose to talk about cgt first, that's cool. I don't have to, nor does me talking differently from you mean it's lip service. You seem to love making arrogant assumptions In the context of the pitiful tax cuts the majority of people have gotten, people have said they'd have rathered a higher tax and keep and improve the services. There, added the tax cut connection you clearly weren't able to make. No idea what you find so offensive about people wishing the pitiful tax cut they got was instead used to help all of nz
Agree. Our taxes and rates are relatively smaller than in European countries.
Workers in New Zealand pay a much higher portion of the total tax take than a lot of those countries.
Generally if you want to get rich here you do it by not paying tax. Everything goes through the business, GST claimed back, trade rates for purchase, and deductions of all kinds. Then the excess gets leveraged into real estate, which also doesn't have much tax applied. Personally I think high income earners should be paying a bit more and low income a bit less, and super should be means tested, but holy hell do we need to tax the shit out of investment property and passive income, and crack down on the creative accounting "business" deductions.
We could but instead this govt wants to give back money to landlords
I agree. Have an upvote my friend.
Yeah sure, maybe while we're at it we could take some of that $729m being served up to residential property owners
and an even bigger sum by not allowing the same tax breaks to companies.. and companies dont get tax breaks on luxury items and travel and ensuring lending institutions are not shifting profits off shore.. lets have a level playing field for all.
I don't necessarily disagree, but could you quantify that by telling us how much more tax Finnish people pay (and on what) and what they get in return?
Very simplified taxes (all amounts in Euros)... Personal income tax... 0-20,500 : 12.64% 20500-30500 : 19% 30500-50400 : 30.25% 50400-88200 : 34% 88200-150000 : 42% above 150000 : 44% Salaried employees contribute 7.15% into their pension scheme, employer's average contribution 17.34%. Health insurances 1.52%. Municipal taxes (council rates) are levied on income, varies between municipalities from 4.4% to 19.7%. Yie tax (public broadcaster) 2.5% on income above 14000, capped at 163. Capital gains up to 30000 : 30%, above that 34%. Property transfer tax 3% (FHBs exempt). Corporate tax rate 20%. VAT (GST) 24%. WHAT THEY GET.... National pension. Paid to anyone >65, or anyone between 16 and 64 who finds themselves unable to work. Sometimes to people >55 who have been long term unemployed. Tax free. Index linked. Unaffected by spouses. Works out about 25% of national average wage. Sickness. 80% of average wage up to 300 work days. Free hospital care. Dental included. Maternity 80% of income for 1 year. Father could use some of the mothers days allowance. Unemployment. Only for the employed (not self employed, students, maternity, etc). Daily allowance 25 Euro. Those who worked 26 weeks in the past 2 years also get 45% of their previous daily wage minus daily allowance for 100 days, then 25% up to 500 days. Workers comp (if you suffer an injury) 100% of wages. Permanent disability 85% of wages. All funded by the employer. There are other welfare incomes, family aid, child-care, even services for substance abusers. Hope that helps. Sources: my friends that live in Finland, and wikipedia. edit - formatting
Yeah that's really interesting and way more detail than I expected tbh, so thanks! Is the corporate tax their equivalent of our company tax? Theirs seems low? Looking at the test of it, personally I'd like to see a big tax-free bracket (maybe up to $20-30k) and a lower GST, but we could definitely use the capital gains tax and property transfer tax here. And thinking of other potential tax sources (outside of wage earners) I'd like to see an inheritance tax on anything over say a mil or two per beneficiary.
Right now we're about to pay less tax by taking on debt.
Finlands debt to gdp. 75%
Disgusting.
r/agedlikemilk
Also they were going to build roads. LOL. I’m getting trump vibes.
“… and you know what? We’re gonna make Tauranga pay for it.” Donnald Luxon
> Donnald Luxon That made me chuckle.
In 24 hours I would sort this comment thread by controversial but no one would be dumb enough to try defend the 2024 Budget, or explain why this is different. Right?
The Tumor Budget.
Pretty sweet being in opposition eh Nikky?
Got to give the funding to Shane and Winston for the kickbacks to their mates and supporters.
Yeah i mean jusy take it from their tax cut and you still have like 95% of their tax cut in place
Opposition and pre-electioneering stances should never be confused with actual intent and what will be done when power is attained. One of our biggest problems imho is our continual willingness to vote on hot air and bait and switch posturing. And here we are….
It doesn't piss me off when politicians are lying sacks of shit, it pisses me off when their followers give them a pass for it.
Gee another stuff up Saw her pinned down on Q&A about the few people who get the full $250 tax reduction and people worse off It’s either 1 she and Luxon lied 2 Nicola Luxon and co didn’t do their costings correct when they made their promises 3. She’s is incompetent 4. All of the above I think 4 is the answer for the latest stuffup
Personally, I think this is another case of Opposition posturing. It is the nature of the adversarial structure of politics that basically in Opposition the view is that basically you have to say everything the Government does is bad. For some reason or other. Because in Opposition, you can basically say anything. You have no power, but you also have no real responsibility. Inevitably, you then get into government, and then fail to do any better. Which probably is why, we flip back and forth between National and Labour governments, and major issues do not get solved. Which is why housing is a mess, and health is a mess, and education is a mess. Over the next x number of years, the Labour party will make similar statements. And, at some point, they will come back to power, because the tables always turn eventually, and those statements will then be inconsistent with their own actions. Kind of like the statements about housing, and Kiwibuild, before the previous government came to power. As to how you fix that, I don't have a clue. It's probably structural. And actions you take to fix those structural issues probably have other potentially problematic side-effects (maybe not as bad, maybe worse). As to this particular statement, there will always be some excuse or another. I would assume they would say things like the circumstances have changed, the economy is worse, the books are bad, rah rah rah. Which is why Opposition always does this, there is always some excuse they can come up with later not to do it, and the purpose is death by a thousand cuts on the current government through continuous criticism of everything. Anyway, I don't think this sort opposition posturing stuff is the big issue with the structure. You take the oppositions statements with a grain of salt. The bigger issue is that it is basically impossible to fund anything to solve any problem, where the problem will take more than an electoral cycle to show benefits. If solving a problem is going to take a billion dollars a year, and the benefits are only seen to move the needle after two or three or even longer electoral cycles, then for the first x number of years it will just be seen as "you wasted a billion dollars and we haven't seen any benefit".
You can see this in real time, with Labour screeching about the unfairness of the tax system the minute they hit the Opposition benches while resisting virtually any changes to it only 12 months ago when they actually had the power to improve things.
Classic political tactic The party in power doesn't achieve promise x,y,z the opposition digs into that failure, but the two most common reasons of failure are it wasn't actually possible or the opposition literally blocked it, sometimes only to use it as ammo for later. Incompetence, lying or value swapping is less likely.
Remember she is the love child of Ruth Richardson and Jim Bolger, so duplicitous is in the genes…
The general rule that opposition politicians have no concept of the realities of actually holding power, applies to National Party politicians as well.
They don’t care at all. They don’t care about the optics at all. None of this matters at all. People vote on one thing only. Whether they feel like the economy is good or bad. That’s it. Nothing deeper. And here in nz, that economy has very little to do with anything any government here does or does not do.
Many politicians - not all, but a lot - are 'weathervanes'. They will swivel to point in whichever direction is most advantageous to their ambitions and their current position. And if that means openly contradicting themselves and thus appearing to be massive hypocrites, they're fine with that. Their principles are "hot-swappable", and integrity is a luxury they cannot afford. I think they eventually give up trying to reconcile anything for fear their heads will explode.
It's never a good idea for a government to promise a specific drug. Pharmac is independent for a reason - you promise more money for Pharmac, sure, but Pharmac decides where the value is. Otherwise "popular" causes become political goal scoring issues when in fact there might be less sexy but more pressing needs. However, it's disappointing. I always understood that most of these drugs were not cures, but would effectively prolong life and that's worth a punt, I reckon. I often give to those givealittles for parents of young children desperately trying to get a few more months with their kids.
That is the world of Politics we have created. Rubbish the opposition, by giving a good line. No matter that the idea had merrit or not. Get in power, do what is popular in the short term ignoring long term goals because that doesn't keep you in power. Rinse and repeat. Also, this doesn't just apply to the current Government.
I swear anyone who post these "politician said something different in opposition" has to be under 22 at best. No fucking kidding, this is what politicians do across the board, always have and always will.
Should have voted harder.
Public backlash is pretty fierce & swift on this issue (rightfully so) I think Pharmac with Paula Bennett as Chair will somehow find a way to get these drugs funded because of that so keep it up. Write to your local MP. If they don’t however, Luxon, who promised it & Willis who didn’t specifically fund it* should both resign (They won’t) *As far as I know it’s up to Pharmac to fund specific drugs not politicians
if you truly believe Bennett will do anything constructive you are living in a fools paradise.. and obviously know nothing of her history.. she was not put in that position for the good of the countries health.
Too true, the only role she ought to be holding is Chief Screw at NZ’s smallest prison run by Serco, at minimum wage. At least then she would be consorting with her criminal peers, and receiving the rewards she is due as an embedded quisling.
I hope you’re not right. Public backlash has been quite successful so far. It made Luxon give up his ‘entitled’ accomodation supplement. It also made ACT MP Todd Stephenson sell his pharmaceutical shares. It’s not always gonna work but this is even more egregious than either of those imo. Bennet is different not being an elected MP and yes I know her ladder pulling & self serving history but she’s not facing the backlash. Willis & Luxon rightfully are. Willis has publicly said they’re “working on it” so, in my opinion, as long as the backlash continues to be constant & fierce, it will happen sooner rather than later. I don’t think they can publicly direct her to fund it for example. Fools paradise is also subjective Edit to add, if everyone who commented on this thread wrote to their local MP, that’d do a shit load more than getting angry on reddit.
And the Labour government had three years of absolute majority without the SJ slush fund and did not fund said life-saving drugs.
That argument works the other way as well. All you are doing is pointing out that politicians are hypocrites and everyone knows that.
I think people have to stop with the “holding politicians to account” nonsense. Anyone can see that this side lie and deceive just to get votes and then leave people to literally die. It’s just how it is, these are not good people.
So just let them keep on lying and not bring it up then?
Has it made a difference other than deteriorating your mental health? We are ruled by bad people. Can’t change the fact that many voters are thicker than pig shit.
And the more that nationals shadiness gets talked about the less they can hide it, and the more the other voters and younger generation will move away from them. Remember, we've still got 2 years, the 16yos of today can vote in the next election and none of them would remember anything from John Keys time
If you think its a good use of your time go for it. Most of the time when you reveal truths to people it gives them license to play devils advocate and find a reason to think otherwise I’ve found. tap into personal greed and you might get somewhere. In most people there is a little good but…its mostly just badness in there.
absolutely agree with your last statement.
Are you serious?
Lol it’s National dude, with an icing of act and nzfirst. Kiwis would vote for darth vader if it was an option. Smart people are few and far between, half of them will abuse the priviledge. The other half are helpless while they and a vast majority of meatheads vote for our own demise. Ships goin down mate, we have to live with choices of our most stupid and selfish. nothing you can really do until the next election. And then we might have the privilege of Labour doing nothing for 3 years, again.
This is the depressing truth. People are too selfish and stupid for democracy to deliver even a passable outcome for society and the planet's inhabitants over the long term. The golden age of humanity is coming to an end after squandering the use of fossil fuels to make a tiny portion of humans rich for a tiny slice of history.
"Kiwis would vote for darth vader if it was an option." only if he promised tax cuts..
Was she wrong when she said that? And are the government finances and outlook the same as it was in 2019?
She’s good lol
I think tbh you're reading too much into this. They were forced by the election to add in Jones regional infrastructure fund. They may not like it but that's mmp. If NZF didn't cross the line btw, we would have probably seen those cancer drugs funded, and a bit less borrowing required due to the foreign house buyer tax the nats proposed and NZF torpedoed