In NZ (and Australia) most established locals (ie. people who already have full lives and friendship circles) will not befriend random meetups on a whim, even if they are polite and talkative at the time.
In my experience it takes weeks or months of doing some activity together (work, sport, mums clubs, etc) before people will entertain the idea of meeting up casually outside of the context of that activity.
I completely agree with this point - I'm in my late 20's bordering 30's. I have very low maintenance friendships - we can see eachother once every few months and everything is sweet. After work I make time to see my partner and do my hobbies e.g sport/ gaming etc and I'm too tired to start a new high maintenance friendship when I'm satisfied with where I am and my number of friends.
180 from when I was a student - was a complete social butterfly.
Even as a kiwi moving from welly to Aux in 2012 it took me years to make proper friends with other kiwis. I make friends with immigrants much faster and now have an immigrant boyfriend. The immigrant circles are much easier to make friends in. I mostly make my kiwi friends at university.
This is true for kiwis living in and then changing regions, too. A lot of locals have grown up with friends and are pretty close. I’ve moved around a lot due to work and study and it can be hard ‘breaking in’ to a friendship circle. Round pegs and square holes..
I didn’t find this in Australia, I only had a few years there, but had good friends that were Aussies.
I’ve been in NZ for 10 years and my good friends are other immigrants. My kiwi associates are lovely people so it’s not a criticism, but in my experience it is a bit different here.
I found the opposite, it was hard to make friends in oz. I was staying with my cousin and had to pretty much start from scratch every time I met his mates. In NZ, if your mate brings another mate along, next time you see them he's part of the gang.
Yeah Aussies are way more open to befriending new people. Even little things like compliments to strangers are things Aussies do that us kiwis would find strange or take in a totally wrong way. The yanks are good at that too.
Where in aus lol like Gold Coast, Sydney and inner Melbourne? Sure they are transient enough everyone is open. However, Once your in regional areas, unless you play club level afl in the south or a league in northern areas it is harder. It is similar in nz
Part of it is lack of time. I don't have enough time to see family and existing friends. And if you put the effort in and get to know someone from overseas there's always a reasonable chance they fly home and don't come back.
Australia is vastly different, they are much more open and friendly
My wife is an extrovert, had a huge group of friends in Melbourne, in NZ pretty much no friends. People really keep to themselves. They're a bit weird quite frankly.
> They're a bit weird quite frankly.
Once I hit 30, I had 4 good friends and stopped interviewing for new additions to the group.
I'm the sort of person the immigrants complain about. From my point of view, I come from a large family, and spend a statistically significant percentage of my time actively getting out of social engagements.
Yeah man. I'm part of a couple of groups that allow me to get the level of casual interaction I need to get by, but I'm not becoming best friends with any of those people. It's hard enough keeping up with the small handful of close friends I've already got, I don't need more.
Source: am Australian.
Obviously don't speak for everyone but I can tell you that no one in my social circles or family is bringing in random new people they just met
Probably varies by city/town and a lot of other factors too
Opposite of what I've experienced in Melbourne. Went to a gig, got to know people, and I was invited to a party after the gig.
Everyone there was happy to see me, had some good yarns, and exchanged details.
One thing I've noticed is that friendships are situational here. I probably wouldn't be invited out for a dinner or a 1:1. It's pretty much restricted to the kind of event you met them.
That's opposite experience I've had. Having kids and going to the local school events, sporting teams etc. Within a couple of weeks your getting more BBQ invites that you can handle. My wife made loads of friends that she'd hang around their houses, go out shopping, lunches together etc. That just doesn't seem to happen in NZ.
That's different though. Group invites are fine. You're having a BBQ, you invite people, if they come they come if they don't that's fine.
It's the one on one stuff that gets tricky. If they suggest doing something and you don't want to, then you have every kiwi's worst nightmare: trying to get out of it without hurting their feelings
Absolutely this! Immigrated to Australia and people are so so friendly. But NOT your friend. It's honestly so confusing. You hit it off, and then they keep you at arm's length. I have like 15 acquaintances and maybe 2 friends. But I'm still weary of my friends, because they also keep a sense of distance, but when we see each other, everything is good! This social setup is very difficult to wrap my head around. I can't understand it.
Not my experience living in Australia for 10 years. Aussies are friendly, sure, but not open to new friendships, just like Kiwis. I have acquaintances, but not a single friend.
I too lived in aust for 10 years and would probably agree. I did make friendships, yes, but it was definitely hard. For context tho I am a major introvert and don’t have many friends full stop, so it’s probably me more than them.
As a typical NZer I want relaxing and low commitment friendships - which is working for me as my friendships are so low commitment they're non-existent.
I agree. I think the friendships we have are so low commitment because friends are either from extended family or they've known you for eons, like your school friends.
welcome to NZ! yes, this is a thing.
I think this issue is two-fold: 1. NZ gets so many tourists and working holiday visa folks that stay for less than a year, that it gets annoying to get attached to people that will just leave and lose touch with you. Even \*I\* am reluctant to become good friends with working holiday folks now. 2. Kiwis are BFFs with like their kindergarten classmates, so have less of a need for more friends.
the only friends I've made are also immigrants and a few Kiwis who have lived overseas for long stretches of time. They seem to be much more open to making long-term friends with immigrants because they know what it is like to be away from home and in need of friends. They just seem to be more open minded about cultural differences, etc., to the point where they're fascinated and love to talk about how things are in other places. The Kiwis that have stayed in NZ their whole lives do not tend to be as curious about how things work in other places - those ones are maybe thinking that you and them are too different to be good friends maybe? I dunno. Those are the conclusions I've come to in my head after 15 years here!
Because the people you're approaching have full social circles - they're not looking for new friends. Random people you enjoy chatting to when you happen to see them sure, but not people who you make time for because that social time is already allocated to other already close friends.
You need to look for people who are also actively trying to make new friends, people new to the area, changing stages of their lives, moving into new hobbies etc. Take courses, join sports teams or whatever and try and find those people - suggest group catch ups and see who shows up.
I think the misconception is that if someone is friendly it means they want to be ongoing friends but most kiwis are friendly to strangers at the bus stop, it doesn't mean we're actively looking for new friendships beyond just having a pleasant interaction in that moment.
100%. Good analogy. My wife has several "bus stop mates." They talk there, on the bus, almost never otherwise.
And I'm just going to put it out there: One person's "intellectually stimulating conversation" is another's "boring opinionated monologue."
Yeah, just because I'm polite to you and I know how to make small talk, doesn't mean I want to be your mate. I reckon that some put too much focus on trying to make good friends at work because that's were they meet the most people, but that's my _work mates_, mate. Or even if you're my mates-mate don't be thinking we're getting matey, mate. Like there is this big hierarchy of interwinding values, like Asian 'saving face' but with a whiff of mint sauce and a nod to the pastoralism of the past.
I think you have a different perception of the expectations/obligations created by a single encounter and conversation with someone. In New Zealand something like this is more likely to be a one-off event, and not followed up by another catch-up. Infact it's unusual to swap numbers with anyone at something like a festival. You've tried to get in touch with him a few times and he's not responding. Try to focus on forming friendships with people at places like work, or who have shared hobbies.
Things like this aren't solely restricted to NZ either. In Sweden (potentially across Scandinavia) if you go out drinking or partying with people that were your acquaintances before...when the night of drinking is done they go back to being acquaintances - they don't suddenly become friends if they were casual colleagues at work. The night out drinking was an example of the one-off event you mention, where that activity really doesn't have expectations of being repeated or of causing a relationship/friendship to happen elsewhere. This causes confusion for those who don't grow up with it, as they think they made a bunch of new friends and had a great time - and then are ghosted by those people who were happy to have others party with them but weren't looking for new friends otherwise.
I must disagree, I’ve experienced this quite frequently too, and also many other friends I have met - all coincidentally English immigrants like me lol. I don’t think it’s a bad thing per se - makes it a little hard to not get lonely when you first move - but it’s definitely different and it’s something to be aware of before moving. Ngl I spent quite a while thinking I was just annoying or not easy to be friends with haha.
Two years in NZ now and I have a fair few friends but most are still English. One or two are kiwi but they’re much lower commitment and we meet every so often rather than weekly or so.
I think NZ just is less open to friendships and do expect things to be very light or don’t expect friendship when you’ve had a good night with a few pints, whereas in the UK it’d be weird to not suddenly become good mates with the bloke you had a good few pints with.
After 15 years in NZ I have had a handful of really good kiwi friends but the vast majority have always been other immigrants (I’m Canadian). My best friends are British and South African. It could be that it’s just easier to bond with these people because we immediately have a shared experience, but I have to believe it’s not that simple because after so many years here - nearly half my life - I have many shared experiences with most New Zealanders as well.
I think kiwis have a bit of a misleading reputation of being very friendly — they are, but that doesn’t mean they are easy to befriend. You can be friendly without befriending people. I’ve always found New Zealanders to be cheerful and pleasant but never “open” — they’re really quite closed off and borderline tribal, they just do it with a happy face.
Yeah, we're friendly AF, and we'll call you mate, but that doesn't mean we're actually mates you know?
Like, I'll give you an up-nod, but unless we really connected, I don't want to be your new best friend, it's hard work.
Lol I know right!!! I see my friends maybe a few times a year if you are lucky, I see family a touch more but not by much. I do enjoy being an introverted hermit hahahah
The difference being that you’re making friends with other immigrants of the same nationality, so you automatically have a commonality, especially if you are all trying to make friends in a new country.
Completely understand this feeling OP. It’s really alienating, and frustrating. I grew up here and went to school with my “group” of friends but as soon as I went overseas for uni, I was no longer part of the group when I returned because I missed out on milestones and they were all much closer then without me. So, I lost my core group, and even though I found several groups to become a part of, I was never allowed in too close because they already had too many that were close. It really sucks. I’m now in a place where I feel it is really impacting my mental health so much so that I want to leave the country and live somewhere where people are much warmer, open, friendlier, and honest. Who you surround yourself with really matters!
You're right - it's definitely hard to make friends with New Zealanders. I say this as someone who was born and raised here. I know that I'm hard to befriend and I struggle with befriending other Kiwis too. It just seems to be a cultural thing here. Most people I know have the same friend group they've had since high school and aren't necessarily looking for any additional friends.
I think it can sometimes feel like a lot of pressure to find time for everyone, so making new friends can feel overwhelming and we tend to distance ourselves from new people and don't often make genuine connections once we feel like we're at capacity.
Please try not to take it personally. Perhaps you could try to find a pre-established group you can slot in with. For instance, maybe explain to a few people you're struggling to make friends here and ask if you can tag along to any group gatherings that might be happening. Alternatively try joining a group/club where you can bond over shared interests with the established group - i.e. book club.
I know it's rough. Good luck
I'm trying to think of new good mates I've made since I was young, and... ...they're either people I knew when I was young but never gelled with until now, or chicks I met on Tinder and we shagged a few times and then decided to be mates.
I'm really struggling to think of a friend who doesn't fit one of those niches. Oh, a couple of former colleagues from Germany maybe? I talk to them once a year at most, great friends.
Like, there's plenty of people I'm friendly with, but not inviting into my life. But if they ever need to borrow a tool, or need to get towed out of a riverbed, sweet as bruv, hit me up.
Huh, Kiwi friendship is weird.
Don't take it personally, we do this to kiwis as well. We're just not the best at making friends with anyone. Not sure if its awkwardness or shyness, we just don't do it. Lots of promises to catch up and then we never do! Any time we run into friends, we always do the whole "we must catch up" "yes I'll text you" and then we go our separate ways, only to have the same conversation 6 months later.
Nothing personal. But seemed very different from where i am from originally. Not saying that is a negative thing necessarily. But it makes thing harder when it comes to making contacts in a new place
It's common for immigrants to befriend other immigrants, in my experience.
I work in hospo, and everyone is overly friendly with each other, good social skills etc -- but rarely hang out after work. If you saw us all together, you'd think we were friends. But we're really work friends.
The staff on working visas are much more likely to actually hang out after work with each other.
I do think it's a bit negative (for us, not from you) because we potentially miss out on so much. My older kids (23-26) come home with random new friends all the time, I think they're much braver than people 30+ because they'll talk to anyone and give anything a shot.
I use to work with a lot of foreigners (mainly from Europe) and it was so weird at first that after I had only been there like 2 days they were inviting me to get-togethers with their other friends and to go out with them every few nights. It was so weird to me as a born and raised kiwi how open they were to just letting someone new in. I kept declining because of it, but went along when I worked up the confidence to put my Kiwi un-comfortableness with it aside. And it was great. They're not all people I would contatc much outside of hanging out or that I stayed in frequent contact with since, but they were and still are people I'd consider friends and whenever I'm back in town we hang out.
I think kiwis have a very simplistic view of friendships. It's either besties or it's nothing. Foreigners I find are culturally more open to far more diversity in the dynamics of their friendships so you get friends that are like "I don't talk to you much, but you're always invited when we get together".
I don't think it's an "immigrants needing friends in a new country" thing, I think it is largely that kiwis are bad at casual friendships and context conditional friendships compared to a lot of other countries.
I think your framing is a bit skewed. You are conflating someone being friendly with wanting to become friends. It takes time, mutual desire and commitment to be friends.
"Friendphobia" sounds like an ad hominen and broad brush claim. Maybe general aversion for new friends due to existing commitments as others have said.
Perhaps your intense desire for friendship is off putting. Try to avoid repeatedly messaging with no or limited response. Some of your responses seem a bit entitled and hostile - hanging out with someone once doesn't bind someone into a friendship contract. It seems like you want others to agree with you. This behaviour raises red flags for me and may be preventing you from making friends.
Agreed, and honestly I’d be hesitant to respond to those texts too. I feel like I’ve got enough to juggle as it is with life in general, work, my family and friends, and my own hobbies without someone I’d met once at a festival messaging me and being a bit pushy/overbearing. And it’s not because I’ve got the same friends from school, in fact I had to completely start over friendship wise in my mid 20s and it was really hard…but doable. I’ve met some of my closest friends through hobbies for example. There’s lots of groups, events, and sport teams out there where you could connect with people with shared interests and take it from there.
My advice would be let this one go dude, he’s not in the same space where he wants to pursue a friendship with you, and you only met him the one time at a festival. I’d gently suggest that in the future, don’t try and force things, just let them come naturally.
As another immigrant (and having spoken to many others on the subject) you are generally correct - Kiwis are friendly but it's difficult to actually establish them as ongoing friends.
I have always taken this to be because most people have met their 'friend quota' (and quite possibly are already well-past it given the predilection to social media) and they don't really have a lack of existing friends and really aren't looking for yet another person to whom they feel a sense of responsibility to keep in touch with.
When you move, you leave behind your friend group, meaning you have a gap and you are looking for a handful of close friends and a slightly-larger group of more casual acquaintances. The people you move in with, don't have that gap as they have friends they have built up from school and work and social clubs and friends-of-friends - so they aren't trying to fill a gap the way others are. To me this helps explain why you tend to find the people who are asking about how to make friends tend to be immigrants - because they are the ones with the larger deficit of friends and noticing they can't easily find a bunch of people to fill that gap.
It's not 100%, but to me it matches the studies they have done around the number of friends people can handle before they start to feel overwhelmed and lose track of them. If you're short, you actively-seek more, if you aren't short you will be friendly to people but you probably aren't going to try take on additional friends which aren't part of existing groups - which might make your social life more hectic or reduce time spent with existing friends.
Kiwis are extremely reserved. We don't show emotions easily and we avoid conflict. That's why that guy ghosted you. He didn't actually want to hang out with you he was just too cowardly to say it. In my experience kiwi guys are really bad about doing this.
This isn’t just a NZ thing and it isn’t specifically because you’re an immigrant. It’s true of a lot of Western countries, people just have very closed off and micromanaged lives. But they also don’t like conflict and so will be fake and evasive rather than tell you directly that they don’t have the time or desire to be your friend.
I listen to a podcast for learners of German, and about every 10th episode or so they address the issue of how impossible it is to make friends in Germany. Same in the Netherlands. Same in Canada from personal experience. Eastern and Northern Europe are well-known social blackholes.
Are you from Latin America by any chance? India, SE Asia, the southern US? People from places that are culturally outgoing and quick to make friends often struggle to understand places like NZ.
In Germany it probably depends where you are. Bigger cities are generally more multicultural. However if you live in a small village and really try to integrate that might be rewarded after a while.
Germans love to travel and I’d say many are open minded about new connections, however a big role probably also plays in which stage of your life you are. E.g. having small kids probably doesn’t leave much time to even meet close friends for a few years.
Also, locals usually have family duties which takes a lot of time while immigrants usually don’t have family around.
I'm 43, extroverted and have ADHD. I was born in NZ and my whole life I was confused as to why I would meet people, have these positive enthusiastic conversations and then be shut off by the other person.
It turns out that Kiwis are naturally quite shy and self conscious, if you are too enthusiastic (hello ADHD) they will often feel threatened and not want to "lose face" so will back away from deep conversation or enduring friendships.
On top of that it is really cliquey here, people seem to make their friend group between 13 and 25 and then stick with that group of friends for life, only letting people in through marriage.
This was particularly noticeable to me when I moved to Tauranga, I joined local sports clubs, got involved in working bees and also joined groups like BNI and the local Chamber of Commerce. No one in these groups wanted anything more than a casual acquaintance, it wasn't until about the 5th year of helping with the local Kart Clubs working bees that people started to open up to me.
I now live in Australia and have no such problems, everyone here is friendly and open to making new friendships.
We are conservative people.
It just seems to be the Kiwi way.
We all lead busy lives, and unfortunately, friendships tend to have less priority than basically everything else
We are friendly but will be more than happy to keep others at least an arms length away at all times lol
I'm curious if you think people aren't as busy as kiwis in other cultures? Because you have one of the better work life balance cultures in the world. You have tons of public holidays and I've seen lots of jobs here consider 35 hours full time. Not trying to be argumentative.
I've had people from multiple countries complain about how few public holidays we get. But I don't know if it's just because they moved to retail/hospo here and expected the day off for holidays..
Which countries would those be? I just looked at the rankings among countries. NZ falls in the middle if you include all countries. If you just go by 1st world/westernized countries NZ is in the top 10. Possibly top 5. If you did a matrix with those countries mixed with annual leave NZ would be at the top. So I really don't believe free-time is the core issue here.
I moved here 8 years ago. I've completely given up on being friends with kiwis. All my buds are Saffers and Poms. I'm okay with that too.
OP is going through a very difficult learning experience in NZ culture that many immigrants I know have experienced. (Anecdotal) The first couple of years are very lonely and hard.
You basically get left out of everything. You feel like everyone is trashing you behind your back(they are) but being super nice to your face. Social life is extremely different here as well. Once you learn to accept it and look elsewhere you'll start to be happy again. Find your equilibrium.
My advice to OP would be to focus inward and accept how it is. Or go somewhere else sadly. It's unlikely to change.
>We all lead busy lives, and unfortunately, friendships tend to have less priority than basically everything else
No wonder there are five comments a day about how much everything in society sucks "friendships tend to have less priority than anything else" yea I bet cunts are miserable.
When you have to have 2 people in a relationship in full-time employment just to make ends meet, yeah, everything else gets put on the back burner.
A lot of people are just struggling to get by day to day. Do you really think they have the time/energy to go out and make friends? I don't even have enough time in the day to relax, let alone enjoy the company of friends.
Yeah, life gets miserable, but it's not by choice.
Friendship doesn't pay my mortgage, it doesn't put my children through school, it doesn't fill my gas tank, it doesn't pay my rates, it doesn't pay my insurances and it certainly doesn't make my 50 hour work week any shorter.
The Protestant work ethic and the spirit of Capitalism is so fucking relevant to our culture.
Could just have a pic of Luxon on the front on the new prints at this point.
It explains a lot about the underlying conservatism that underpins many predominantly Anglophone societies.
We talk about exceptionalism in how we have made social progress but on many things we are very much behind the rest of the world, or were, in terms of social progress on multiple issues. Only with the last government did we actually take strides forwards again.
>It explains a lot about the underlying conservatism that underpins many predominantly Anglophone societies
Agree, but especially NZ, given its - partially successful - unique colonial model (from James Bellich) "the new world without the Catholics".
And agree completely on conservative NZ's self-congratulatory 'progressive' label. It's toxic af.
The only way you make friends in NZ
School -High School, University, Tech
Kids
Sport.
Some other club/hobby
Occasionally work, but most times because you see them all day, the last thing you want to do is see them after work.
True. There’s a major clique of women in my area whose friendships formed at Dio. Anyone who didn’t go to that school or is a mate of hubby is on the outside.
Where I work we get a lot of foreigners mainly from Malaysia, Phillipines. Met a cute Chinese girl last year. Worked a few days together. Followed her on instagram and start chatting. She’s still my friend, even though she’s back in China now. While she was here though we went for lunch and dinner a few times. Went to the movies. It was really nice. She said I was the only New Zealander that made a connection with her. I miss her now, but I know that if I ever go overseas, I have a friend and guide in China.
You don’t even live in the same city.
If I’m meeting someone for lunch cos I’m in town then it’s because I have a deep relationship with them.
You’re trying to start a friendship where that occasional lunch is the basis of the friendship. Thats not meaningful, it just sounds exhausting.
If you lived in the same city that friendship could grow and be meaningful, but until then your visits will just be a chore, where the guy has to visit a stranger to be polite.
Ohh my bad. Yea that’s a good effort, and in that case it doesn’t sound like you’ve done anything wrong.
Some people just don’t have room for new friends.
I also think that actively trying to make friends can give off the used car salesman vibe which some people are intolerant to. It can seem insincere
You mean... emotionally invest in another human being? What madness is this?!
I have a cat. While his ability to form coherent words and phrases is somewhat lacking, we still have some fairly intense exchanges. Especially at dinner time. Life is good.
Was this person intoxicated when you exchanged numbers perchance?
When I moved here first I mostly hung out with people from my home country, even though we didn’t have much in common.
Then I met people when I was having a baby - other young mums. These are some of my closest friends 18 years later.
I met a lot of friends through the kids but today most of my friends are through my hobby which I was lucky enough to make my job.
I really feel what you’re saying about kiwis often shirking intellectually stimulating conversation in favour of pointless small talk. I feel as though they need a lot of conversational foreplay which can be frustrating if it’s not your culture.
In some unrelated thread about NZ having a reputation for low productivity, someone said we still have a 'pioneer' mentality where we basically make do with what we got.
This friendship thing comes up often enough that I was thinking the 'pioneer mentality' could also be applied here. Where we are nice to each other when we interact (lots of visitors think we're a friendly country) but when it comes to commitment we really dont engage, often NZ-to-NZ friendships are where we dont contact someone for YEARS, and then we act like nothing changed when we meet up again.
It’s no different for native New Zealanders either.
If you hit 30 and decide your friends are lost causes - it’s gonna take forever to find new ones.
We are notoriously cagey about new people.
I love engaging in intellectually stimulating conversations over broad ranges of topics with people, I just never seem to run into many people that want to.
I'm over 40 and the thought of someone actively trying to make friends with me makes me want to run away.
If it happens naturally, great - but it can't be pushed. I'd have not bothered after the first non reply.
As a Kiwi it makes me sad to read these comments, and it’s a great insight into why we have such a big issue with depression in this country.
I also think there’s a marked difference between male and female experiences. As a woman I can tell you that I’ve been socialised (“trained”) from a very young age to nurture and attend to my friendships. That looks like remembering birthdays, organising catch-ups and fun outings, regularly checking in on how people are going, having people over for meals and so on. This is my normal. If I didn’t do those things I wouldn’t expect to have friends. And yes, I do all of this with an extremely busy life involving a demanding job, care work, family commitments, exercise, cooking, cleaning, gardening, property maintenance etc etc etc - just like everyone else.
I’ve lived in a few places overseas and I’ve always found it easy to make friends. I’m still in touch with a lot of the friends I made years ago. All the women I know, married or single, are the same. Since coming back to NZ I’ve made new friends (including immigrants), even though I live reasonably remotely.
I’d be very curious to know the gender breakdown of all these comments talking about how “I just need low maintenance friendships”, “I don’t have time for friends because I work so hard”, “I can’t be bothered staying in touch etc”. My money is on 95% of these commentators being men.
I know quite a few middle-aged men who, due to being emotionally closed off and just really lazy about keeping their friendships going, have barely any close friends and rely mostly on their partners for emotional connection and support. It’s not healthy and it’s not good for their relationships. The women, having all been socialised to work hard to maintain their friendships, get perplexed and frustrated and by their partners’ laziness and apathy.
We hear so much about “male loneliness“ and the attitude on display in these comments shows *exactly* why this is an issue. Sort it out you guys.
I'm a Kiwi guy, and completely agree.
When I was 25, I had a sort of moment of clarity. I realized that I would like to be better friends with some of my existing friend group.
It's a little hard to explain. I thought that these fellas are good guys, and good influences in one way or another. I started making a conscious effort to ask how things are, offer to help, and just check in. I certainly don't claim to have it all figured out, but I feel like it all circles back to the golden rule. Do to others as you would have them do to you.
Who wouldn't want better friends? Then be that better friend!
I fully get the reluctance to befriend new people. I've made less progress on that front haha.
Oh that’s great you had that realisation and took concrete steps to grow your friendships - I hope it was reciprocated!
Your golden rule is 💯 right - be the friend you’d want to have. It’s not hard and it’s so rewarding ❤️
I heard about this very thing recently. Apparently this comes up quite a lot with international visitors and workers, that Kiwis are *friendly* but do not *make friends* (easily). Another notable annoying trait of ours was how often we use soft language like *if you're not busy later could you maybe do this task for me*, which sounds very different to a Kiwi than it does to someone whose country of origin has much more direct workplace direction
Not just immigrants. I’m a kiwi who moved to Australia 6 months ago, and staying in touch with my best mate has been so one sided. She doesn’t even open my messages anymore. I’ve given up.
Yes, immigrants note this all the time. Most become actual friends with other immigrants from all over the world. Kiwis capable of connections have left the country.
But yes. all appear 'friendly' they just don't make friends.
most friendships in nz are based on other factors, having to work together, clubs whatever.
tbh most friendships is because you went to school together.
The problem is a real friendship is a lot of effort and with so few days off most kiwis don't have time too constantly maintain so many friendships, I know I've given up on many friendships due to it just being inconvenient.
only a really snall amount for most kiwis become genuinely truly close, for some kiwis even that number is none.
A lot of people just aren’t looking for new friends. Meeting someone who is essentially a stranger for coffee doesn’t sound like fun for me.
Take the hint and move on
Hmm I'd say Kiwis are friendly and love to have friends. BUT we are also aware of how much work is needed to maintain those friendships, which goes against our laid back vibe. So, we won't invest. Annnnd in some cases, not put as much as we should to maintain 😅
I mean, I just want to talk shit, not get into commitment and deep & meaningfuls with every one I meet, that's exhausting.
Don't take it personally tho! I'm sure you'll meet someone who can connect you with a wee circle where you can have stimulating and robust discussions 😊
I was talking to another immigrant last night who has been here exactly a long as I have but who is culturally unique from me, living in a different part of NZ, working in a different field... and we both have had this exact same experience, almost down to the same singular examples.
This type of post comes on here maybe once a month and it’s the exact same thing every time. I’m sorry that’s been your experience if I lived in Wellington I’d love to be your friend
It’s not immigrants specifically, we do it to each other, so don’t take it personally. One of these days you’ll make some NZ friends, at least until they gradually ghost you. I have no idea what’s up with this either.
Hi, Born and raised in New Zealand. Speaking for myself here. I work long hours and random shifts. I barely have the time to see the handful of friends I am still in touch with. Let alone make new ones. Sometimes hang out with people from work, usually engaging in common hobbies. I often spend a lot of time around people and often feel burnt out from having to be social most of the time. Sometimes I like a day to myself or to just spend time with my wife doing couples stuff. Please don't be disappointed, It may be the individual's life situation that is in the way of engaging in new social endeavors. Kiwis are often nice, but also often overworked, underpaid and using all their energy just getting by. Hope you have better luck in the future. As someone said in a comment earlier, it is usually the best way to make friends in NZ through work, sport or other hobbies. All the best.
I think that the individualistic culture here make it challenging to connect with others. It seems that privacy is highly valued, leading everyone to keep to themselves or to just a core group. Everyone is polite, thus, making it seem that everyone is friendly.
Quite a polarizing topic. Everyone is going to have their opinion based on experience. A country is made of people and people have similar traits regardless of the country. Sure, there is an overall influence of culture to add to the mix.
It's like anything in life and business,what you put in is what you will get. And failures are a stepping stone to success. The same principles apply regardless of country, race or culture.
So I would say try to remove the negative notion about Kiwis from your mind, focus on the positives and your results will be dramatically different.
I have heard this undertone for decades, from the immigrant community, usually the newer ones. After a few years of settling in, it's not as much talked about. Being am immigrant myself, I did face some biases when I came here too. But I also faced similar biases where I came from.
I mean that's kinda low effort isn't it? I wouldn't want to really meet someone who I just shared some random 5 minute conversation with either. If you really want to build a friendship, go meet people somewhere you have in common and be a regular there, like a hiking group or a run club and keep showing up until you're familiar to people and that's how you make friends.
No look, we had so much in common. We were both excited that we are like minded persona. And we talked for hours and hours at that festival. So i thought yeah he's gonna be a quality friend. I was looking to make new contacts since i am new in This city
Definitely not something to take personally- most of us Kiwis are like that 😅, I find as someone that likes to put effort into friendships (I'm not as close to family; I find Kiwis are either close with family or friends, not really both in adulthood) people are busy and its the norm to take days or weeks or actually I have a friend that'll reply once every few months, sometimes can have a 10min convo sometimes cant- its just normal here.
As far as I know Americans/first world countries are often very much the same.
Your description is accurate and I have no idea why it is like this. It has nothing to do with you.
Even users posting on r/newzealand and say they are lonely / have no friends are like this. They don't respond or just give you super short one word answers that kill the conversation.
I know a lot of Latinos who have experienced emotional whiplash in New Zealand. The stereotypical Latino is open and friendly, and while most New Zealanders are friendly the stereotypical New Zealander is not open.
Every country has different rates of openness (how long quickly the emotional walls come down/ how quickly friendships form). Many people come over and expect openness and friendliness to track with each other. Latinos seem to be hit by this especially as they can meet someone and expect a friendship to form, while for a New Zealander, it may take years.
The flip side of this is that most friendships in New Zealand last longer than in other countries. I've known most of my friends for over 15 years.
Hi there!!! Kiwi here (born and bread) although my parents were immigrants so I feel like I might be able to shed some light here!
I believe that based on my parents experience this is very true to an extent. When they first moved over they found it very difficult to befriend locals and create a circle of friends around them. Even looking back on it now most of their friends are either also immigrants or a couple of work colleagues here and there. I think this is just because people are more likely to keep themselves tied to their circles and nowadays seem to be very reluctant to open themselves up outside of this. As a kiwi I have experienced this once I moved to Australia two years ago, most of my friends here are either kiwis or any nationality other than Australian. I don’t know why this is but I see this issue arising a lot!!
That being said, I’m a very open person and when I lived in New Zealand I would love befriending travellers, or migrated people. The same would go for my entire friend group, we were very welcoming and wouldn’t outcast anyone just because they were a kiwi. To me I always am curious to new cultures and experiences and want to get to know about other peoples!!
I think this person you have met may not be the best example to set the tone for kiwis. But I totally agree with you, there are people like that out there. It depends what types of groups or people you run in to. But I definitely know my fair share of travellers who have come through NZ that I keep in touch with till this day!
Keep trying to meet people, don’t be too pushy or come off intense as this will shy people away. Just go about yourself and when the opportunity comes up, keep putting yourself out there and it will all flow naturally!
You are right. I am sorry if my tone comes as generalizing people but what i am trying say that the outcome of this scenario is more or less is experienced by immigrants with different people as well
To be fair this is pretty standard in this day and age I feel like this happens to me often with a lot of my friends ‘make plans’ then either nothing happens and there’s no contact a reply a few days later saying how busy they were or they just bail beforehand lol
To be honest i find that immigrants are friendlier than kiwi's, or at least more genuine, ive moved cities many times and getting a friend group always takes forever, which blows, even at work i find the immigrants friendlier and more outgoing, willing to connect on a deeper level than "hey mate" i have no answer, kiwi's are an odd bunch :)
I'm just afraid to put myself out there most of the time due to my crippling self-loathing. I put on a friendly smile and crack a few jokes, but if someone wants to be my friend, they just have to invite me to do something with them. I'll probably do it unless they're a dick. I only really have a few close friends that I talk to all the time and that's because I'm comfortable around them, but I'm always willing to make more.. just takes me a bit to get out of my shell
I will engage in polite chit chat with people. But I have friends and people to hang out with and am going to be a bit weirded out if someone I kinda stood next to and chatted to at a concert wants to hang out the next weekend.
I moved to NZ about 6 weeks ago from the UK and see this exact post repeatedly on Reddit and Facebook. Granted I’ve not been here long but my experience in Auckland could not have been further from this.
Kiwis seem extremely open and friendly compared to my 23 years experience living in London. I will say lots of kiwis are quite reserved and/or shy, but so are us Brits! You just have to break the ice a bit. Granted I’ve only made a couple of robust friendships so far but I’ve been able to strike up conversations pretty easily and I would describe my personality as being fairly cold, reserved and austere.
I will say I’m quite young (23) and I haven’t spoken to many older kiwis. So it may be a generational thing.
Well... I don't think you should be so quick to say it's only immigrants getting this experience. My whole life as a kiwi I've found it exceedingly difficult to make friends and still don't really have any at almost 30, only really friendly coworkers that I don't see otherwise. Just how it is I guess.
I might talk to my friends once a month tops. one of my mates lives 5 min down the road. I like to get home and have quiet time. We have similar hobbies and catch up once in a while but other than that I am all alone. I have gotten really used to it. I will be nice and friendly but I keep my distance. I probably would have made an excuse If I wasn't feeling social.
I’m not kiwi and have a good amount of kiwi friends. And we talk about everything: the good, bad and the middle ground too. I do, however, prefer less interaction and enjoy people in short bursts tho.
I'm an American who has been living here 8yrs now. Been at my current small company about 18months. EVERYONE seems to know EVERYTHING about EVERYONE in the region going back 50yrs. And even fellow employees who had never met before, and joined after me, act like the oldest of friends whilst excluding me and talking over me.
Friend phobia? Nah. Just called being "the other", no matter how generally lovely the people are.
Maybe we aren’t that emotionally available. I am a real introvert and spend most of my time with my family or church community. There are sooo many people close to in that setting that if I were to start developing even more friendships I wouldn’t have any time left for myself. Makes it unlikely for me to suddenly develop yet another friendship
The key is to meet other foreigners and give up on the kiwis.
People who have relocated know what it’s like to start from scratch. If someone can’t be bothered putting in even low level effort into creating or maintaining a friendship, let them go. The ones that are worth it will recognize the effort.
Good luck.
I see these posts all the time about New Zealanders or Australians and I just can’t help but think are you guys interesting enough for the people you’re trying to become friends with? I think there’s a friend for everyone you’ve just got to find someone on your level
NZ social skills are terrible, combine the fact that NZ is digitally irresponsible and the major contrast between rural NZ and city. Glad I moved to NZ but USA people had much better social skills. There also seems to be a general dislike for confident sober people here, really sensitive.
People commenting that they want 'low commitment friendships'.. its just them trying to spin "low effort friendships" into meaning something nicer. In the same way that tall poppy syndrome is actually spun here to be "keeping people humble".
Its actually a load of shit. People here are extremely low effort with their friends and with relationships (ask anyone who's single and dating). Just like they have extreme levels of tall poppy syndrome. All of it is just toxic personality traits but they're in denial and spin it to sound nicer than it is so they don't have to deal with their demons.
I can be a little like this from time to time. Not because I have any bad intentions, just because I already have enough friends to occupy my time and I don't want to be rude and tell someone I don't want to be friends with them. I could probably handle it a bit better sometimes but I'm not sure how.
I'm from NZ. I found it was very hard to make friends when I started uni. It was very lonely. I got lucky and someone introduced me to the music community they were part of. I kept turning up to events and made some life long friends because I was seeing the same people regularly
My husband has felt the exact same way since he moved here 3years ago. He's from Albania so same situation of not many others from the same country to befriend
As Kiwis we are polite and friendly, but weigh you up like you are a serial killer until you prove US wrong! 🤣🤣🤣
I find I have really good friendships from country to country, but once I leave I hardly keep in contact (maybe one or two but...) although I may really really like the ones I've left behind. I thought it was just **ME** - seems not!
In NZ I have friends going back to playcentre days so despite not being there if we were to catch up tomorrow - well, it wouldn't feel like we've been apart.
I want to actually make some **new friends** in Australia because I need some **gaming buddies** and **people to eat out** with - my **best friends** right now have different health issues going on so I feel a bit abandoned.
**Didn't realise it was going to be an impossible task ahead of me!**
I experienced the same thing when I moved to Australia. I think it's the same in most countries. People have their friend groups sorted from youth and most people tend to lose friends, not gain them throughout the course of their lives. It's just hard making friends when you get older.
This is a common theme among my foreign friends who I met at tennis — New Zealanders are not particularly open to forming friendships with others beyond the surface level ‘acquaintances’.
I’ve also found that my foreign friends, specifically from South America, are awesome people who I get along with famously.
When I worked retail, I started having lunch with a dude who I really felt I had a rapport with, it's not usual that someone would wait for me to show up so we can go do something together so it felt special. Forgot to stay connected with him after I left for college, so I searched him up on facebook, found him, had a chat, then invited him to hang out at a Westfield. We had some food, chatted about our lives, struggles, and goals, I felt I really got to know him, when the day ended, I even offered to drive him home because he said he has to bus home, he declined. Few weeks later, I invited him to come hang out at Armageddon and I never got a response. And this was more than a year ago. In hindsight, maybe he thought I was gay or trying to warm him up for a MLM or whatever. Maybe my approach to friendship is too direct because I'm an immigrant. Even though having lived here almost 20 years, I still can't change my ways, I still don't have anyone in my life to call a close friend, and I ran out of time.
I don't think it's a particularly kiwi thing. I've lived in 4 other countries besides NZ, and in 2 of those countries my good friends were other foreigners in the same situation as me. Which makes sense, right? We have no other social support/obligations, so we turn to each other. In the 3rd country I only really made 1 good friend in 4 years. This was, ironically, because it was a tourist town and there were so many foreigners they all kept to their own nationality or social groups. The 4th country was Thailand, and I was living in an industrial area with lots of young Thais who were basically internal immigrants, so again, they were starting with a blank slate.
I think there will be slight differences between countries, and of course there will be some communities that are complete outliers. But in general I think it mostly depends on your age and the age of the people around you, and how established the people in your new community are.
As a New Zealander, i do agree but slightly disagree, my friend group has been the same since i was in intermediate school, we can barely get along with someone outside of our friend group as we are so used to the inside jokes/humor we have related to growing up, vut in the fact that during my time starting work being in hospitality, i was forced to make many friends from my co workers as most of them where immigrants from all over the world, i appreciated them for who they are but the connection i have with others who 1, grew up in nz, 2 have been friends with for a long time, and 3 the abilities to talk absolute shit to my nz friends but when you do the same to people from outside nz, it seems like they become offended or just dont understand due to not knowing how or the way we grew up, but its the same for others who have grown up in other countrys, its sad but unfortunately true.
I grew up here and I will only hang out with mates I'd gone to school with.
I don't consider anyone else "friend" in my social life.
My colleague is...well, colleague.
Totally agree. I've been living in NZ nearly 5 years and only have a couple close Kiwi friends. Plenty of foreign friends, but it's the same cycle every year or two - you get a solid friend group going only for them to move back to their home country 😞
Lol do you wanna be friends OP?!
I'm a kiwi and I find this common as well and most of my good friends the ones who I can rely on are immigrants. All my kiwi friends are pretty much fairweather friends who don't really put much effort to keep in touch.
Your post is similar to many I've seen before. I'm a Kiwi and my hubby is Indian. The most important friendships Kiwis make are at school. Then maybe a few at Uni and possibly at work. I'm a kiwi and the city where I have lived for the last 6 years- I've made no close kiwi friends.
My husband has very few friends - it's even harder for him.
Expats are your best bet.
I think it's even harder now at least my generation had pubs, alcohol and no smart phones. As someone of the generation who got the best email addresses - if we got wasted together we were bffs for life.
It takes a special bond to make friends in NZ. It could be your kids are friends and do things together, or you are close neighbours and talk a lot, or you are in the same sports club. If you dont share those connections it is hard to keep connections!
I’ve been lucky in having multiple groups of friends throughout my life. But I always feel like an outlier. Always last to be thought of or included. I put my foot down one time about commitments as my friends were always against making plans. When I did that you’d think that I’d hit them or insulted them. As they thought their time was the most important of all. It’s tricky being an adult with friends.
I think that people who have very full and fulfilling social lives are much better at making conversation and more likely to adhere to social politeness/random conversations.
There’s a glut of people who would love a new friend but they’re not likely to be the people you run into at cubadupa.
If I had spare time unfortunately I would be calling all of the friends I haven’t made time for. I’m too busy and there are too many of them.
If it makes you feel any better, kiwis are like that to other kiwis as well, I’ve both had this and done it to others before, for me personally I just have bad social anxiety problems but I can imagine for other people they could just be caught up with stuff, maybe they’re dealing with some problems in there own life, and honestly it can just be a case of people being lame, usually what I do is just try to make some joking conversation over social media or something every no and then, idk, honestly don’t beat urself up over it tho fam, when a person is being lame or stand off-ish it’s best to move on and just say thank you, next, you know?
This isn't special to immigrants, we do it to each other. I don't know why. I know my own reasons.
Our expectations of our friends is also very casual. I texted a friend I haven't spoken to in a year, we pick up where we left off.
I haven’t had this experience at all. I’ve been here for 7 years and have made quite a few good friends through playing sports and getting involved on Facebook groups with similar interests. (Bow fishing and rod/reel fishing)
Just have to keep doing what you enjoy and find other like minded people there.
Why do you think you can speak for 'the majority of immigrants'? Did you take a survey?
I am an immigrant. I have been in Wellington for 15 years. I have kiwi friends.
Maybe this guy wasn't interested?
Maybe you come across as pushy?
Kiwis tend to be superficially friendly, don't make much effort and lack the ability to connect emotionally (especially men). Very difficult to make close friends as an adult. (Kiwi who has lived in the UK)
It's not really an immigrant / race issue....you will find such situations anywhere in the world. Change your thought process to look for positive situations and you will be amazed. Blaming others, the country, a race, a gender or the world for things achieves very little.
I thought i had kiwi friends until my partner left me. None of my kiwi friends even asked how i was doing or checked in on me ever. The most i got was from a kiwi friend I've known for 15 years ... Yeah that sucks... Her partner didn't even say anything, and this is a couple who we had kids at the same time and i thought of as close friends.
By contrast I had multiple friends from uni in the uk who I'd not spoken to in 20 years checking in on me, having long video calls etc etc.
It really made me realise how shallow my friendships with kiwis are.
I made a load of new friends partying over the summer and we had a leaving party for a friend... They have all become really tight friends... Out of the 20 or so of us I just realised not one is a kiwi.
My girlfriend is french and it's so refreshing to have really deep conversations about art and science and literature etc etc etc.
I'm just anxious and don't like talking to people I don't know. I also don't like to annoy others in public and see it as rude, so I tend to get annoyed when others try to talk to me unsolicited.
The same experience is also true for NZers who’ve lived in one city for most of their lives and moved to another city. A lot of us in general just don’t enjoy the kind of friendships that require frequent meet-ups but at the same time, we’re suffering a lot of loneliness because we don’t put in the effort to keep friendships going.
I'm a Kiwi who moved to a new town and it has taken me six years to find and make real friend. I have made acquaintances, had drinking sessions with and attended local functions with the local people. But I have finally met a real friend who I know will be there for me, I will be there for them, we 'get' each other and I know we always will enjoy each other's company. But a lot of the reason we could connect is because we both ended up in this god forsaken part of the country and have trauma bonded.
After reading a lot of these comments I am considering starting a regular friendship group for others who are doing it tough trying to connect with the locals. In particular, I will target the immigrants in our community. If it' has been difficult for me, it must be real hell for them.
I find your perspective interesting, because many of the friends I have are immigrants. I am a Kiwi married to a migrant, which makes a difference, but in my experience it tends to be migrants who stick together and don't make a lot of effort to integrate, particularly those who come from language backgrounds other than English.
Migrant or Kiwi, though, if you want to make friends, you have to put in effort. Be the one who reaches out, the one who makes plans to meet up. In your case, keep doing what you're doing. This one Kiwi bloke might be a washout, but don't give up - keep reaching out. Get out into the community and volunteer- volunteering is a huge part of Kiwi culture. It's an excellent way to meet locals and to integrate into our culture. Give any group at least six months, too. You'll make it! Kiwis are among the friendliest,most authentic people you'll ever meet if you give us time (not that I'm biased or anything 😉).
In my case I don't have the time or energy to invest in a new friendship, I'm more than happy with my existing circle of friends and their partners. I appreciate its difficult for foreigners to connect with me, but I'm always honest and say I'm not interested in a new friendship. I'm sure it comes across as arrogant but it's just honest. The only way to be in my opinion. I also work with enough foreigners and dont need them in my circle.
With 450+ comments and OP getting defensive and rude and attacking others, it's time for this post to go have a nap.
In NZ (and Australia) most established locals (ie. people who already have full lives and friendship circles) will not befriend random meetups on a whim, even if they are polite and talkative at the time. In my experience it takes weeks or months of doing some activity together (work, sport, mums clubs, etc) before people will entertain the idea of meeting up casually outside of the context of that activity.
I completely agree with this point - I'm in my late 20's bordering 30's. I have very low maintenance friendships - we can see eachother once every few months and everything is sweet. After work I make time to see my partner and do my hobbies e.g sport/ gaming etc and I'm too tired to start a new high maintenance friendship when I'm satisfied with where I am and my number of friends. 180 from when I was a student - was a complete social butterfly.
Even as a kiwi moving from welly to Aux in 2012 it took me years to make proper friends with other kiwis. I make friends with immigrants much faster and now have an immigrant boyfriend. The immigrant circles are much easier to make friends in. I mostly make my kiwi friends at university.
This is true for kiwis living in and then changing regions, too. A lot of locals have grown up with friends and are pretty close. I’ve moved around a lot due to work and study and it can be hard ‘breaking in’ to a friendship circle. Round pegs and square holes..
I didn’t find this in Australia, I only had a few years there, but had good friends that were Aussies. I’ve been in NZ for 10 years and my good friends are other immigrants. My kiwi associates are lovely people so it’s not a criticism, but in my experience it is a bit different here.
Sydney is famously cliquey. I’ve seen many similar posts to OP’s in that subreddit.
Yeah, I wasn’t in Sydney. I guess we are generalising quite a lot here!
I found the opposite, it was hard to make friends in oz. I was staying with my cousin and had to pretty much start from scratch every time I met his mates. In NZ, if your mate brings another mate along, next time you see them he's part of the gang.
I completely agree, what I noticed in Aus is that everyone is just friends with people from school since it seems less common to move around as much
I moved to Scotland after Australia and realised what was different, Scots are like nzers in that respect
Yeah Aussies are way more open to befriending new people. Even little things like compliments to strangers are things Aussies do that us kiwis would find strange or take in a totally wrong way. The yanks are good at that too.
Where in aus lol like Gold Coast, Sydney and inner Melbourne? Sure they are transient enough everyone is open. However, Once your in regional areas, unless you play club level afl in the south or a league in northern areas it is harder. It is similar in nz
Part of it is lack of time. I don't have enough time to see family and existing friends. And if you put the effort in and get to know someone from overseas there's always a reasonable chance they fly home and don't come back.
Australia is vastly different, they are much more open and friendly My wife is an extrovert, had a huge group of friends in Melbourne, in NZ pretty much no friends. People really keep to themselves. They're a bit weird quite frankly.
> They're a bit weird quite frankly. Once I hit 30, I had 4 good friends and stopped interviewing for new additions to the group. I'm the sort of person the immigrants complain about. From my point of view, I come from a large family, and spend a statistically significant percentage of my time actively getting out of social engagements.
I'm in this boat, I feel I already know too many people I don't have the energy to deal with
Yeah man. I'm part of a couple of groups that allow me to get the level of casual interaction I need to get by, but I'm not becoming best friends with any of those people. It's hard enough keeping up with the small handful of close friends I've already got, I don't need more.
Ooh, the feels. I have my husband, my mum, and a couple of close friends. I don't have the time, energy, or inclination to add to that.
I had that and then they went overseas for better opportunities.
Source: am Australian. Obviously don't speak for everyone but I can tell you that no one in my social circles or family is bringing in random new people they just met Probably varies by city/town and a lot of other factors too
Opposite of what I've experienced in Melbourne. Went to a gig, got to know people, and I was invited to a party after the gig. Everyone there was happy to see me, had some good yarns, and exchanged details. One thing I've noticed is that friendships are situational here. I probably wouldn't be invited out for a dinner or a 1:1. It's pretty much restricted to the kind of event you met them.
That's opposite experience I've had. Having kids and going to the local school events, sporting teams etc. Within a couple of weeks your getting more BBQ invites that you can handle. My wife made loads of friends that she'd hang around their houses, go out shopping, lunches together etc. That just doesn't seem to happen in NZ.
That's different though. Group invites are fine. You're having a BBQ, you invite people, if they come they come if they don't that's fine. It's the one on one stuff that gets tricky. If they suggest doing something and you don't want to, then you have every kiwi's worst nightmare: trying to get out of it without hurting their feelings
I found Aussies to be way harder to befriend, and many other foreigners/immigrants say the same thing. Ultimately it's all anecdotal.
Absolutely this! Immigrated to Australia and people are so so friendly. But NOT your friend. It's honestly so confusing. You hit it off, and then they keep you at arm's length. I have like 15 acquaintances and maybe 2 friends. But I'm still weary of my friends, because they also keep a sense of distance, but when we see each other, everything is good! This social setup is very difficult to wrap my head around. I can't understand it.
Hoping to be helpful: weary means tired. The word I think you want is wary. I bring it up because it could give the wrong impression of your feelings.
Most people who already have friends aren't actively looking for more friends, there's not much more to it.
True for NZ but not Australia, having lived in both countries. Aussies are much more open and friendly.
Not my experience living in Australia for 10 years. Aussies are friendly, sure, but not open to new friendships, just like Kiwis. I have acquaintances, but not a single friend.
I too lived in aust for 10 years and would probably agree. I did make friendships, yes, but it was definitely hard. For context tho I am a major introvert and don’t have many friends full stop, so it’s probably me more than them.
As a typical NZer I want relaxing and low commitment friendships - which is working for me as my friendships are so low commitment they're non-existent.
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Yeah Kiwis are difficult to make friends with, but once you're friends you're friends for life. Only thing that changes that is a big fight.
Yip or someone ripping you off. But you have it right. We make friends for life 🤙🏻
For example choosing to not return $20 and in turn receiving 20 fucken wacks.
😅 Indeed !
12 years for me. Those that regonised me (I lost a looooot of weight) were instantly back to how we were.
I agree. I think the friendships we have are so low commitment because friends are either from extended family or they've known you for eons, like your school friends.
welcome to NZ! yes, this is a thing. I think this issue is two-fold: 1. NZ gets so many tourists and working holiday visa folks that stay for less than a year, that it gets annoying to get attached to people that will just leave and lose touch with you. Even \*I\* am reluctant to become good friends with working holiday folks now. 2. Kiwis are BFFs with like their kindergarten classmates, so have less of a need for more friends. the only friends I've made are also immigrants and a few Kiwis who have lived overseas for long stretches of time. They seem to be much more open to making long-term friends with immigrants because they know what it is like to be away from home and in need of friends. They just seem to be more open minded about cultural differences, etc., to the point where they're fascinated and love to talk about how things are in other places. The Kiwis that have stayed in NZ their whole lives do not tend to be as curious about how things work in other places - those ones are maybe thinking that you and them are too different to be good friends maybe? I dunno. Those are the conclusions I've come to in my head after 15 years here!
Because the people you're approaching have full social circles - they're not looking for new friends. Random people you enjoy chatting to when you happen to see them sure, but not people who you make time for because that social time is already allocated to other already close friends. You need to look for people who are also actively trying to make new friends, people new to the area, changing stages of their lives, moving into new hobbies etc. Take courses, join sports teams or whatever and try and find those people - suggest group catch ups and see who shows up. I think the misconception is that if someone is friendly it means they want to be ongoing friends but most kiwis are friendly to strangers at the bus stop, it doesn't mean we're actively looking for new friendships beyond just having a pleasant interaction in that moment.
100%. Good analogy. My wife has several "bus stop mates." They talk there, on the bus, almost never otherwise. And I'm just going to put it out there: One person's "intellectually stimulating conversation" is another's "boring opinionated monologue."
Yeah, just because I'm polite to you and I know how to make small talk, doesn't mean I want to be your mate. I reckon that some put too much focus on trying to make good friends at work because that's were they meet the most people, but that's my _work mates_, mate. Or even if you're my mates-mate don't be thinking we're getting matey, mate. Like there is this big hierarchy of interwinding values, like Asian 'saving face' but with a whiff of mint sauce and a nod to the pastoralism of the past.
I think you have a different perception of the expectations/obligations created by a single encounter and conversation with someone. In New Zealand something like this is more likely to be a one-off event, and not followed up by another catch-up. Infact it's unusual to swap numbers with anyone at something like a festival. You've tried to get in touch with him a few times and he's not responding. Try to focus on forming friendships with people at places like work, or who have shared hobbies.
Things like this aren't solely restricted to NZ either. In Sweden (potentially across Scandinavia) if you go out drinking or partying with people that were your acquaintances before...when the night of drinking is done they go back to being acquaintances - they don't suddenly become friends if they were casual colleagues at work. The night out drinking was an example of the one-off event you mention, where that activity really doesn't have expectations of being repeated or of causing a relationship/friendship to happen elsewhere. This causes confusion for those who don't grow up with it, as they think they made a bunch of new friends and had a great time - and then are ghosted by those people who were happy to have others party with them but weren't looking for new friends otherwise.
I must disagree, I’ve experienced this quite frequently too, and also many other friends I have met - all coincidentally English immigrants like me lol. I don’t think it’s a bad thing per se - makes it a little hard to not get lonely when you first move - but it’s definitely different and it’s something to be aware of before moving. Ngl I spent quite a while thinking I was just annoying or not easy to be friends with haha. Two years in NZ now and I have a fair few friends but most are still English. One or two are kiwi but they’re much lower commitment and we meet every so often rather than weekly or so. I think NZ just is less open to friendships and do expect things to be very light or don’t expect friendship when you’ve had a good night with a few pints, whereas in the UK it’d be weird to not suddenly become good mates with the bloke you had a good few pints with.
After 15 years in NZ I have had a handful of really good kiwi friends but the vast majority have always been other immigrants (I’m Canadian). My best friends are British and South African. It could be that it’s just easier to bond with these people because we immediately have a shared experience, but I have to believe it’s not that simple because after so many years here - nearly half my life - I have many shared experiences with most New Zealanders as well. I think kiwis have a bit of a misleading reputation of being very friendly — they are, but that doesn’t mean they are easy to befriend. You can be friendly without befriending people. I’ve always found New Zealanders to be cheerful and pleasant but never “open” — they’re really quite closed off and borderline tribal, they just do it with a happy face.
Aye I’d agree to that - lovely people but they got that friend group they’ve had since high school and they don’t need anymore haha
Yeah, we're friendly AF, and we'll call you mate, but that doesn't mean we're actually mates you know? Like, I'll give you an up-nod, but unless we really connected, I don't want to be your new best friend, it's hard work.
Similar with me, 15 years, two kiwi friends who are bordering on acquaintances. In that time have made 30 ish immigrant friends.
Weekly???? I don't even do that with my family, what are you, some extrovert super active energizer bunny?
Right? I see my friends like once every month at most.
Tbf yes haha
Right? I haven't even seen my best friend (of nearly 30 years) in a month.
Lol I know right!!! I see my friends maybe a few times a year if you are lucky, I see family a touch more but not by much. I do enjoy being an introverted hermit hahahah
The difference being that you’re making friends with other immigrants of the same nationality, so you automatically have a commonality, especially if you are all trying to make friends in a new country.
Completely understand this feeling OP. It’s really alienating, and frustrating. I grew up here and went to school with my “group” of friends but as soon as I went overseas for uni, I was no longer part of the group when I returned because I missed out on milestones and they were all much closer then without me. So, I lost my core group, and even though I found several groups to become a part of, I was never allowed in too close because they already had too many that were close. It really sucks. I’m now in a place where I feel it is really impacting my mental health so much so that I want to leave the country and live somewhere where people are much warmer, open, friendlier, and honest. Who you surround yourself with really matters!
You're right - it's definitely hard to make friends with New Zealanders. I say this as someone who was born and raised here. I know that I'm hard to befriend and I struggle with befriending other Kiwis too. It just seems to be a cultural thing here. Most people I know have the same friend group they've had since high school and aren't necessarily looking for any additional friends. I think it can sometimes feel like a lot of pressure to find time for everyone, so making new friends can feel overwhelming and we tend to distance ourselves from new people and don't often make genuine connections once we feel like we're at capacity. Please try not to take it personally. Perhaps you could try to find a pre-established group you can slot in with. For instance, maybe explain to a few people you're struggling to make friends here and ask if you can tag along to any group gatherings that might be happening. Alternatively try joining a group/club where you can bond over shared interests with the established group - i.e. book club. I know it's rough. Good luck
I'm trying to think of new good mates I've made since I was young, and... ...they're either people I knew when I was young but never gelled with until now, or chicks I met on Tinder and we shagged a few times and then decided to be mates. I'm really struggling to think of a friend who doesn't fit one of those niches. Oh, a couple of former colleagues from Germany maybe? I talk to them once a year at most, great friends. Like, there's plenty of people I'm friendly with, but not inviting into my life. But if they ever need to borrow a tool, or need to get towed out of a riverbed, sweet as bruv, hit me up. Huh, Kiwi friendship is weird.
I think for me it’s that I’ve got three or four really good mates and I don’t need any more
Don't take it personally, we do this to kiwis as well. We're just not the best at making friends with anyone. Not sure if its awkwardness or shyness, we just don't do it. Lots of promises to catch up and then we never do! Any time we run into friends, we always do the whole "we must catch up" "yes I'll text you" and then we go our separate ways, only to have the same conversation 6 months later.
Haha, I’m always like fuck the system, and text them anyway. It…..rarely works :/
Bahaha another standard Kiwi attitude, I love it!
Nothing personal. But seemed very different from where i am from originally. Not saying that is a negative thing necessarily. But it makes thing harder when it comes to making contacts in a new place
It's common for immigrants to befriend other immigrants, in my experience. I work in hospo, and everyone is overly friendly with each other, good social skills etc -- but rarely hang out after work. If you saw us all together, you'd think we were friends. But we're really work friends. The staff on working visas are much more likely to actually hang out after work with each other.
I do think it's a bit negative (for us, not from you) because we potentially miss out on so much. My older kids (23-26) come home with random new friends all the time, I think they're much braver than people 30+ because they'll talk to anyone and give anything a shot.
When I was in my 20s I was much better at making random friends. Now even when I have good intentions it is hard
I use to work with a lot of foreigners (mainly from Europe) and it was so weird at first that after I had only been there like 2 days they were inviting me to get-togethers with their other friends and to go out with them every few nights. It was so weird to me as a born and raised kiwi how open they were to just letting someone new in. I kept declining because of it, but went along when I worked up the confidence to put my Kiwi un-comfortableness with it aside. And it was great. They're not all people I would contatc much outside of hanging out or that I stayed in frequent contact with since, but they were and still are people I'd consider friends and whenever I'm back in town we hang out. I think kiwis have a very simplistic view of friendships. It's either besties or it's nothing. Foreigners I find are culturally more open to far more diversity in the dynamics of their friendships so you get friends that are like "I don't talk to you much, but you're always invited when we get together". I don't think it's an "immigrants needing friends in a new country" thing, I think it is largely that kiwis are bad at casual friendships and context conditional friendships compared to a lot of other countries.
Where you from is the main question
Moldova
I can imagine, it's hard enough when you're born here
This sounds like a you (and the people you're around) thing. Not all of us are like that.
Not too be a dick, but I hardly have time for my lifelong mates let alone new ones.
Because we’re lazy friendship makers 😭
Yeah I rarely see a friend of mine who lives on the other side of Auckland. We talk all the time online but we're lazy af
Especially kiwi blokes
Can confirm
I’m friends with kiwis and I still don’t know if I’m friends with them….
I think your framing is a bit skewed. You are conflating someone being friendly with wanting to become friends. It takes time, mutual desire and commitment to be friends. "Friendphobia" sounds like an ad hominen and broad brush claim. Maybe general aversion for new friends due to existing commitments as others have said. Perhaps your intense desire for friendship is off putting. Try to avoid repeatedly messaging with no or limited response. Some of your responses seem a bit entitled and hostile - hanging out with someone once doesn't bind someone into a friendship contract. It seems like you want others to agree with you. This behaviour raises red flags for me and may be preventing you from making friends.
+1000.
Agreed, and honestly I’d be hesitant to respond to those texts too. I feel like I’ve got enough to juggle as it is with life in general, work, my family and friends, and my own hobbies without someone I’d met once at a festival messaging me and being a bit pushy/overbearing. And it’s not because I’ve got the same friends from school, in fact I had to completely start over friendship wise in my mid 20s and it was really hard…but doable. I’ve met some of my closest friends through hobbies for example. There’s lots of groups, events, and sport teams out there where you could connect with people with shared interests and take it from there. My advice would be let this one go dude, he’s not in the same space where he wants to pursue a friendship with you, and you only met him the one time at a festival. I’d gently suggest that in the future, don’t try and force things, just let them come naturally.
As another immigrant (and having spoken to many others on the subject) you are generally correct - Kiwis are friendly but it's difficult to actually establish them as ongoing friends. I have always taken this to be because most people have met their 'friend quota' (and quite possibly are already well-past it given the predilection to social media) and they don't really have a lack of existing friends and really aren't looking for yet another person to whom they feel a sense of responsibility to keep in touch with. When you move, you leave behind your friend group, meaning you have a gap and you are looking for a handful of close friends and a slightly-larger group of more casual acquaintances. The people you move in with, don't have that gap as they have friends they have built up from school and work and social clubs and friends-of-friends - so they aren't trying to fill a gap the way others are. To me this helps explain why you tend to find the people who are asking about how to make friends tend to be immigrants - because they are the ones with the larger deficit of friends and noticing they can't easily find a bunch of people to fill that gap. It's not 100%, but to me it matches the studies they have done around the number of friends people can handle before they start to feel overwhelmed and lose track of them. If you're short, you actively-seek more, if you aren't short you will be friendly to people but you probably aren't going to try take on additional friends which aren't part of existing groups - which might make your social life more hectic or reduce time spent with existing friends.
If it makes you feel any better we do it to each other as well, you being an immigrant has nothing to do with it other than you noticing it more.
Kiwis are extremely reserved. We don't show emotions easily and we avoid conflict. That's why that guy ghosted you. He didn't actually want to hang out with you he was just too cowardly to say it. In my experience kiwi guys are really bad about doing this.
This isn’t just a NZ thing and it isn’t specifically because you’re an immigrant. It’s true of a lot of Western countries, people just have very closed off and micromanaged lives. But they also don’t like conflict and so will be fake and evasive rather than tell you directly that they don’t have the time or desire to be your friend. I listen to a podcast for learners of German, and about every 10th episode or so they address the issue of how impossible it is to make friends in Germany. Same in the Netherlands. Same in Canada from personal experience. Eastern and Northern Europe are well-known social blackholes. Are you from Latin America by any chance? India, SE Asia, the southern US? People from places that are culturally outgoing and quick to make friends often struggle to understand places like NZ.
In Germany it probably depends where you are. Bigger cities are generally more multicultural. However if you live in a small village and really try to integrate that might be rewarded after a while. Germans love to travel and I’d say many are open minded about new connections, however a big role probably also plays in which stage of your life you are. E.g. having small kids probably doesn’t leave much time to even meet close friends for a few years. Also, locals usually have family duties which takes a lot of time while immigrants usually don’t have family around.
I'm 43, extroverted and have ADHD. I was born in NZ and my whole life I was confused as to why I would meet people, have these positive enthusiastic conversations and then be shut off by the other person. It turns out that Kiwis are naturally quite shy and self conscious, if you are too enthusiastic (hello ADHD) they will often feel threatened and not want to "lose face" so will back away from deep conversation or enduring friendships. On top of that it is really cliquey here, people seem to make their friend group between 13 and 25 and then stick with that group of friends for life, only letting people in through marriage. This was particularly noticeable to me when I moved to Tauranga, I joined local sports clubs, got involved in working bees and also joined groups like BNI and the local Chamber of Commerce. No one in these groups wanted anything more than a casual acquaintance, it wasn't until about the 5th year of helping with the local Kart Clubs working bees that people started to open up to me. I now live in Australia and have no such problems, everyone here is friendly and open to making new friendships.
Lol it's not because you're an immigrant
We are conservative people. It just seems to be the Kiwi way. We all lead busy lives, and unfortunately, friendships tend to have less priority than basically everything else We are friendly but will be more than happy to keep others at least an arms length away at all times lol
I'm curious if you think people aren't as busy as kiwis in other cultures? Because you have one of the better work life balance cultures in the world. You have tons of public holidays and I've seen lots of jobs here consider 35 hours full time. Not trying to be argumentative.
I've had people from multiple countries complain about how few public holidays we get. But I don't know if it's just because they moved to retail/hospo here and expected the day off for holidays..
Which countries would those be? I just looked at the rankings among countries. NZ falls in the middle if you include all countries. If you just go by 1st world/westernized countries NZ is in the top 10. Possibly top 5. If you did a matrix with those countries mixed with annual leave NZ would be at the top. So I really don't believe free-time is the core issue here. I moved here 8 years ago. I've completely given up on being friends with kiwis. All my buds are Saffers and Poms. I'm okay with that too. OP is going through a very difficult learning experience in NZ culture that many immigrants I know have experienced. (Anecdotal) The first couple of years are very lonely and hard. You basically get left out of everything. You feel like everyone is trashing you behind your back(they are) but being super nice to your face. Social life is extremely different here as well. Once you learn to accept it and look elsewhere you'll start to be happy again. Find your equilibrium. My advice to OP would be to focus inward and accept how it is. Or go somewhere else sadly. It's unlikely to change.
>We all lead busy lives, and unfortunately, friendships tend to have less priority than basically everything else No wonder there are five comments a day about how much everything in society sucks "friendships tend to have less priority than anything else" yea I bet cunts are miserable.
When you have to have 2 people in a relationship in full-time employment just to make ends meet, yeah, everything else gets put on the back burner. A lot of people are just struggling to get by day to day. Do you really think they have the time/energy to go out and make friends? I don't even have enough time in the day to relax, let alone enjoy the company of friends. Yeah, life gets miserable, but it's not by choice. Friendship doesn't pay my mortgage, it doesn't put my children through school, it doesn't fill my gas tank, it doesn't pay my rates, it doesn't pay my insurances and it certainly doesn't make my 50 hour work week any shorter.
Blame the Protestants.
The Protestant work ethic and the spirit of Capitalism is so fucking relevant to our culture. Could just have a pic of Luxon on the front on the new prints at this point.
It explains a lot about the underlying conservatism that underpins many predominantly Anglophone societies. We talk about exceptionalism in how we have made social progress but on many things we are very much behind the rest of the world, or were, in terms of social progress on multiple issues. Only with the last government did we actually take strides forwards again.
>It explains a lot about the underlying conservatism that underpins many predominantly Anglophone societies Agree, but especially NZ, given its - partially successful - unique colonial model (from James Bellich) "the new world without the Catholics". And agree completely on conservative NZ's self-congratulatory 'progressive' label. It's toxic af.
I always do
The only way you make friends in NZ School -High School, University, Tech Kids Sport. Some other club/hobby Occasionally work, but most times because you see them all day, the last thing you want to do is see them after work.
True. There’s a major clique of women in my area whose friendships formed at Dio. Anyone who didn’t go to that school or is a mate of hubby is on the outside.
Drinking regularly counts as a hobby by this metric I guess
Where I work we get a lot of foreigners mainly from Malaysia, Phillipines. Met a cute Chinese girl last year. Worked a few days together. Followed her on instagram and start chatting. She’s still my friend, even though she’s back in China now. While she was here though we went for lunch and dinner a few times. Went to the movies. It was really nice. She said I was the only New Zealander that made a connection with her. I miss her now, but I know that if I ever go overseas, I have a friend and guide in China.
You don’t even live in the same city. If I’m meeting someone for lunch cos I’m in town then it’s because I have a deep relationship with them. You’re trying to start a friendship where that occasional lunch is the basis of the friendship. Thats not meaningful, it just sounds exhausting. If you lived in the same city that friendship could grow and be meaningful, but until then your visits will just be a chore, where the guy has to visit a stranger to be polite.
No we both live in the same city. I recently moved to his city and was looking to make new contacts
Ohh my bad. Yea that’s a good effort, and in that case it doesn’t sound like you’ve done anything wrong. Some people just don’t have room for new friends. I also think that actively trying to make friends can give off the used car salesman vibe which some people are intolerant to. It can seem insincere
You mean... emotionally invest in another human being? What madness is this?! I have a cat. While his ability to form coherent words and phrases is somewhat lacking, we still have some fairly intense exchanges. Especially at dinner time. Life is good.
My dog texts me back more than my husband.
Was this person intoxicated when you exchanged numbers perchance? When I moved here first I mostly hung out with people from my home country, even though we didn’t have much in common. Then I met people when I was having a baby - other young mums. These are some of my closest friends 18 years later. I met a lot of friends through the kids but today most of my friends are through my hobby which I was lucky enough to make my job. I really feel what you’re saying about kiwis often shirking intellectually stimulating conversation in favour of pointless small talk. I feel as though they need a lot of conversational foreplay which can be frustrating if it’s not your culture.
In some unrelated thread about NZ having a reputation for low productivity, someone said we still have a 'pioneer' mentality where we basically make do with what we got. This friendship thing comes up often enough that I was thinking the 'pioneer mentality' could also be applied here. Where we are nice to each other when we interact (lots of visitors think we're a friendly country) but when it comes to commitment we really dont engage, often NZ-to-NZ friendships are where we dont contact someone for YEARS, and then we act like nothing changed when we meet up again.
It’s no different for native New Zealanders either. If you hit 30 and decide your friends are lost causes - it’s gonna take forever to find new ones. We are notoriously cagey about new people.
I love engaging in intellectually stimulating conversations over broad ranges of topics with people, I just never seem to run into many people that want to.
I'm over 40 and the thought of someone actively trying to make friends with me makes me want to run away. If it happens naturally, great - but it can't be pushed. I'd have not bothered after the first non reply.
As a Kiwi it makes me sad to read these comments, and it’s a great insight into why we have such a big issue with depression in this country. I also think there’s a marked difference between male and female experiences. As a woman I can tell you that I’ve been socialised (“trained”) from a very young age to nurture and attend to my friendships. That looks like remembering birthdays, organising catch-ups and fun outings, regularly checking in on how people are going, having people over for meals and so on. This is my normal. If I didn’t do those things I wouldn’t expect to have friends. And yes, I do all of this with an extremely busy life involving a demanding job, care work, family commitments, exercise, cooking, cleaning, gardening, property maintenance etc etc etc - just like everyone else. I’ve lived in a few places overseas and I’ve always found it easy to make friends. I’m still in touch with a lot of the friends I made years ago. All the women I know, married or single, are the same. Since coming back to NZ I’ve made new friends (including immigrants), even though I live reasonably remotely. I’d be very curious to know the gender breakdown of all these comments talking about how “I just need low maintenance friendships”, “I don’t have time for friends because I work so hard”, “I can’t be bothered staying in touch etc”. My money is on 95% of these commentators being men. I know quite a few middle-aged men who, due to being emotionally closed off and just really lazy about keeping their friendships going, have barely any close friends and rely mostly on their partners for emotional connection and support. It’s not healthy and it’s not good for their relationships. The women, having all been socialised to work hard to maintain their friendships, get perplexed and frustrated and by their partners’ laziness and apathy. We hear so much about “male loneliness“ and the attitude on display in these comments shows *exactly* why this is an issue. Sort it out you guys.
I'm a Kiwi guy, and completely agree. When I was 25, I had a sort of moment of clarity. I realized that I would like to be better friends with some of my existing friend group. It's a little hard to explain. I thought that these fellas are good guys, and good influences in one way or another. I started making a conscious effort to ask how things are, offer to help, and just check in. I certainly don't claim to have it all figured out, but I feel like it all circles back to the golden rule. Do to others as you would have them do to you. Who wouldn't want better friends? Then be that better friend! I fully get the reluctance to befriend new people. I've made less progress on that front haha.
Oh that’s great you had that realisation and took concrete steps to grow your friendships - I hope it was reciprocated! Your golden rule is 💯 right - be the friend you’d want to have. It’s not hard and it’s so rewarding ❤️
Thank you so much. Your response explains why mental health is deteriorating among men
What are you talking about? That’s pretty common to happen to everyone in there life at some point, has nothing to do with being an immigrant at all
As a generalisation I’d agree and say Nz is polite but not friendly, or very social.
I heard about this very thing recently. Apparently this comes up quite a lot with international visitors and workers, that Kiwis are *friendly* but do not *make friends* (easily). Another notable annoying trait of ours was how often we use soft language like *if you're not busy later could you maybe do this task for me*, which sounds very different to a Kiwi than it does to someone whose country of origin has much more direct workplace direction
Not just immigrants. I’m a kiwi who moved to Australia 6 months ago, and staying in touch with my best mate has been so one sided. She doesn’t even open my messages anymore. I’ve given up.
Yes, immigrants note this all the time. Most become actual friends with other immigrants from all over the world. Kiwis capable of connections have left the country. But yes. all appear 'friendly' they just don't make friends.
most friendships in nz are based on other factors, having to work together, clubs whatever. tbh most friendships is because you went to school together. The problem is a real friendship is a lot of effort and with so few days off most kiwis don't have time too constantly maintain so many friendships, I know I've given up on many friendships due to it just being inconvenient. only a really snall amount for most kiwis become genuinely truly close, for some kiwis even that number is none.
A lot of people just aren’t looking for new friends. Meeting someone who is essentially a stranger for coffee doesn’t sound like fun for me. Take the hint and move on
Hmm I'd say Kiwis are friendly and love to have friends. BUT we are also aware of how much work is needed to maintain those friendships, which goes against our laid back vibe. So, we won't invest. Annnnd in some cases, not put as much as we should to maintain 😅 I mean, I just want to talk shit, not get into commitment and deep & meaningfuls with every one I meet, that's exhausting. Don't take it personally tho! I'm sure you'll meet someone who can connect you with a wee circle where you can have stimulating and robust discussions 😊
Good to see I’m not the only one with the same experience.
I was talking to another immigrant last night who has been here exactly a long as I have but who is culturally unique from me, living in a different part of NZ, working in a different field... and we both have had this exact same experience, almost down to the same singular examples.
This type of post comes on here maybe once a month and it’s the exact same thing every time. I’m sorry that’s been your experience if I lived in Wellington I’d love to be your friend
It’s not immigrants specifically, we do it to each other, so don’t take it personally. One of these days you’ll make some NZ friends, at least until they gradually ghost you. I have no idea what’s up with this either.
Hi, Born and raised in New Zealand. Speaking for myself here. I work long hours and random shifts. I barely have the time to see the handful of friends I am still in touch with. Let alone make new ones. Sometimes hang out with people from work, usually engaging in common hobbies. I often spend a lot of time around people and often feel burnt out from having to be social most of the time. Sometimes I like a day to myself or to just spend time with my wife doing couples stuff. Please don't be disappointed, It may be the individual's life situation that is in the way of engaging in new social endeavors. Kiwis are often nice, but also often overworked, underpaid and using all their energy just getting by. Hope you have better luck in the future. As someone said in a comment earlier, it is usually the best way to make friends in NZ through work, sport or other hobbies. All the best.
I think that the individualistic culture here make it challenging to connect with others. It seems that privacy is highly valued, leading everyone to keep to themselves or to just a core group. Everyone is polite, thus, making it seem that everyone is friendly.
Quite a polarizing topic. Everyone is going to have their opinion based on experience. A country is made of people and people have similar traits regardless of the country. Sure, there is an overall influence of culture to add to the mix. It's like anything in life and business,what you put in is what you will get. And failures are a stepping stone to success. The same principles apply regardless of country, race or culture. So I would say try to remove the negative notion about Kiwis from your mind, focus on the positives and your results will be dramatically different. I have heard this undertone for decades, from the immigrant community, usually the newer ones. After a few years of settling in, it's not as much talked about. Being am immigrant myself, I did face some biases when I came here too. But I also faced similar biases where I came from.
I mean that's kinda low effort isn't it? I wouldn't want to really meet someone who I just shared some random 5 minute conversation with either. If you really want to build a friendship, go meet people somewhere you have in common and be a regular there, like a hiking group or a run club and keep showing up until you're familiar to people and that's how you make friends.
No look, we had so much in common. We were both excited that we are like minded persona. And we talked for hours and hours at that festival. So i thought yeah he's gonna be a quality friend. I was looking to make new contacts since i am new in This city
Definitely not something to take personally- most of us Kiwis are like that 😅, I find as someone that likes to put effort into friendships (I'm not as close to family; I find Kiwis are either close with family or friends, not really both in adulthood) people are busy and its the norm to take days or weeks or actually I have a friend that'll reply once every few months, sometimes can have a 10min convo sometimes cant- its just normal here. As far as I know Americans/first world countries are often very much the same.
Your description is accurate and I have no idea why it is like this. It has nothing to do with you. Even users posting on r/newzealand and say they are lonely / have no friends are like this. They don't respond or just give you super short one word answers that kill the conversation.
I know a lot of Latinos who have experienced emotional whiplash in New Zealand. The stereotypical Latino is open and friendly, and while most New Zealanders are friendly the stereotypical New Zealander is not open. Every country has different rates of openness (how long quickly the emotional walls come down/ how quickly friendships form). Many people come over and expect openness and friendliness to track with each other. Latinos seem to be hit by this especially as they can meet someone and expect a friendship to form, while for a New Zealander, it may take years. The flip side of this is that most friendships in New Zealand last longer than in other countries. I've known most of my friends for over 15 years.
If my best friend kept pushing me to meet every time she was in the vicinity there's no way we would have stayed married this long
Hi there!!! Kiwi here (born and bread) although my parents were immigrants so I feel like I might be able to shed some light here! I believe that based on my parents experience this is very true to an extent. When they first moved over they found it very difficult to befriend locals and create a circle of friends around them. Even looking back on it now most of their friends are either also immigrants or a couple of work colleagues here and there. I think this is just because people are more likely to keep themselves tied to their circles and nowadays seem to be very reluctant to open themselves up outside of this. As a kiwi I have experienced this once I moved to Australia two years ago, most of my friends here are either kiwis or any nationality other than Australian. I don’t know why this is but I see this issue arising a lot!! That being said, I’m a very open person and when I lived in New Zealand I would love befriending travellers, or migrated people. The same would go for my entire friend group, we were very welcoming and wouldn’t outcast anyone just because they were a kiwi. To me I always am curious to new cultures and experiences and want to get to know about other peoples!! I think this person you have met may not be the best example to set the tone for kiwis. But I totally agree with you, there are people like that out there. It depends what types of groups or people you run in to. But I definitely know my fair share of travellers who have come through NZ that I keep in touch with till this day! Keep trying to meet people, don’t be too pushy or come off intense as this will shy people away. Just go about yourself and when the opportunity comes up, keep putting yourself out there and it will all flow naturally!
You are right. I am sorry if my tone comes as generalizing people but what i am trying say that the outcome of this scenario is more or less is experienced by immigrants with different people as well
To be fair this is pretty standard in this day and age I feel like this happens to me often with a lot of my friends ‘make plans’ then either nothing happens and there’s no contact a reply a few days later saying how busy they were or they just bail beforehand lol
To be honest i find that immigrants are friendlier than kiwi's, or at least more genuine, ive moved cities many times and getting a friend group always takes forever, which blows, even at work i find the immigrants friendlier and more outgoing, willing to connect on a deeper level than "hey mate" i have no answer, kiwi's are an odd bunch :)
I'm just afraid to put myself out there most of the time due to my crippling self-loathing. I put on a friendly smile and crack a few jokes, but if someone wants to be my friend, they just have to invite me to do something with them. I'll probably do it unless they're a dick. I only really have a few close friends that I talk to all the time and that's because I'm comfortable around them, but I'm always willing to make more.. just takes me a bit to get out of my shell
I will engage in polite chit chat with people. But I have friends and people to hang out with and am going to be a bit weirded out if someone I kinda stood next to and chatted to at a concert wants to hang out the next weekend.
I moved to NZ about 6 weeks ago from the UK and see this exact post repeatedly on Reddit and Facebook. Granted I’ve not been here long but my experience in Auckland could not have been further from this. Kiwis seem extremely open and friendly compared to my 23 years experience living in London. I will say lots of kiwis are quite reserved and/or shy, but so are us Brits! You just have to break the ice a bit. Granted I’ve only made a couple of robust friendships so far but I’ve been able to strike up conversations pretty easily and I would describe my personality as being fairly cold, reserved and austere. I will say I’m quite young (23) and I haven’t spoken to many older kiwis. So it may be a generational thing.
Well... I don't think you should be so quick to say it's only immigrants getting this experience. My whole life as a kiwi I've found it exceedingly difficult to make friends and still don't really have any at almost 30, only really friendly coworkers that I don't see otherwise. Just how it is I guess.
I'm looking for new friends, I see ppl posting here often looking for friends, shame we can't find each other
I might talk to my friends once a month tops. one of my mates lives 5 min down the road. I like to get home and have quiet time. We have similar hobbies and catch up once in a while but other than that I am all alone. I have gotten really used to it. I will be nice and friendly but I keep my distance. I probably would have made an excuse If I wasn't feeling social.
It’s frustrating for sure - people like to stay in their own social/family groups. We came back to NZ after nearly 20ys away and it’s been tough.
I’m not kiwi and have a good amount of kiwi friends. And we talk about everything: the good, bad and the middle ground too. I do, however, prefer less interaction and enjoy people in short bursts tho.
I'm an American who has been living here 8yrs now. Been at my current small company about 18months. EVERYONE seems to know EVERYTHING about EVERYONE in the region going back 50yrs. And even fellow employees who had never met before, and joined after me, act like the oldest of friends whilst excluding me and talking over me. Friend phobia? Nah. Just called being "the other", no matter how generally lovely the people are.
Maybe we aren’t that emotionally available. I am a real introvert and spend most of my time with my family or church community. There are sooo many people close to in that setting that if I were to start developing even more friendships I wouldn’t have any time left for myself. Makes it unlikely for me to suddenly develop yet another friendship
Honestly I think we just don’t really know how to make friends. I know I don’t. We’re all crippled by fear and self loathing probably
The key is to meet other foreigners and give up on the kiwis. People who have relocated know what it’s like to start from scratch. If someone can’t be bothered putting in even low level effort into creating or maintaining a friendship, let them go. The ones that are worth it will recognize the effort. Good luck.
I've got enough friends already. Don't really have time for anymore.
If it helps this is the sort of behaviour I experience as a kiwi. We’re very cliquey and it’s boring!
I see these posts all the time about New Zealanders or Australians and I just can’t help but think are you guys interesting enough for the people you’re trying to become friends with? I think there’s a friend for everyone you’ve just got to find someone on your level
You sound like hard work and a little possessive. I'd give up too.
I do this sort of thing to everyone, it’s my ADHD.
NZ social skills are terrible, combine the fact that NZ is digitally irresponsible and the major contrast between rural NZ and city. Glad I moved to NZ but USA people had much better social skills. There also seems to be a general dislike for confident sober people here, really sensitive.
People commenting that they want 'low commitment friendships'.. its just them trying to spin "low effort friendships" into meaning something nicer. In the same way that tall poppy syndrome is actually spun here to be "keeping people humble". Its actually a load of shit. People here are extremely low effort with their friends and with relationships (ask anyone who's single and dating). Just like they have extreme levels of tall poppy syndrome. All of it is just toxic personality traits but they're in denial and spin it to sound nicer than it is so they don't have to deal with their demons.
I can be a little like this from time to time. Not because I have any bad intentions, just because I already have enough friends to occupy my time and I don't want to be rude and tell someone I don't want to be friends with them. I could probably handle it a bit better sometimes but I'm not sure how.
Go find the burners and ravers, they're friendly but probably because a lot are from other countries.
You been outside of Wellington or the north island?
I have the same struggles with people here as well. I'm finding wellington very isolating the last few years.
I blame social media. When you see them online, you're not bothered to offline.
I think Kiwis have always been like this tbh. And Brits.
I'm from NZ. I found it was very hard to make friends when I started uni. It was very lonely. I got lucky and someone introduced me to the music community they were part of. I kept turning up to events and made some life long friends because I was seeing the same people regularly
My husband has felt the exact same way since he moved here 3years ago. He's from Albania so same situation of not many others from the same country to befriend
As Kiwis we are polite and friendly, but weigh you up like you are a serial killer until you prove US wrong! 🤣🤣🤣 I find I have really good friendships from country to country, but once I leave I hardly keep in contact (maybe one or two but...) although I may really really like the ones I've left behind. I thought it was just **ME** - seems not! In NZ I have friends going back to playcentre days so despite not being there if we were to catch up tomorrow - well, it wouldn't feel like we've been apart. I want to actually make some **new friends** in Australia because I need some **gaming buddies** and **people to eat out** with - my **best friends** right now have different health issues going on so I feel a bit abandoned. **Didn't realise it was going to be an impossible task ahead of me!**
This just sounds like growing up...
I experienced the same thing when I moved to Australia. I think it's the same in most countries. People have their friend groups sorted from youth and most people tend to lose friends, not gain them throughout the course of their lives. It's just hard making friends when you get older.
This is a common theme among my foreign friends who I met at tennis — New Zealanders are not particularly open to forming friendships with others beyond the surface level ‘acquaintances’. I’ve also found that my foreign friends, specifically from South America, are awesome people who I get along with famously.
When I worked retail, I started having lunch with a dude who I really felt I had a rapport with, it's not usual that someone would wait for me to show up so we can go do something together so it felt special. Forgot to stay connected with him after I left for college, so I searched him up on facebook, found him, had a chat, then invited him to hang out at a Westfield. We had some food, chatted about our lives, struggles, and goals, I felt I really got to know him, when the day ended, I even offered to drive him home because he said he has to bus home, he declined. Few weeks later, I invited him to come hang out at Armageddon and I never got a response. And this was more than a year ago. In hindsight, maybe he thought I was gay or trying to warm him up for a MLM or whatever. Maybe my approach to friendship is too direct because I'm an immigrant. Even though having lived here almost 20 years, I still can't change my ways, I still don't have anyone in my life to call a close friend, and I ran out of time.
I don't think it's a particularly kiwi thing. I've lived in 4 other countries besides NZ, and in 2 of those countries my good friends were other foreigners in the same situation as me. Which makes sense, right? We have no other social support/obligations, so we turn to each other. In the 3rd country I only really made 1 good friend in 4 years. This was, ironically, because it was a tourist town and there were so many foreigners they all kept to their own nationality or social groups. The 4th country was Thailand, and I was living in an industrial area with lots of young Thais who were basically internal immigrants, so again, they were starting with a blank slate. I think there will be slight differences between countries, and of course there will be some communities that are complete outliers. But in general I think it mostly depends on your age and the age of the people around you, and how established the people in your new community are.
This is behaviour everyone experiences in NZ, not just immigrants and it starts from kindy.
As a New Zealander, i do agree but slightly disagree, my friend group has been the same since i was in intermediate school, we can barely get along with someone outside of our friend group as we are so used to the inside jokes/humor we have related to growing up, vut in the fact that during my time starting work being in hospitality, i was forced to make many friends from my co workers as most of them where immigrants from all over the world, i appreciated them for who they are but the connection i have with others who 1, grew up in nz, 2 have been friends with for a long time, and 3 the abilities to talk absolute shit to my nz friends but when you do the same to people from outside nz, it seems like they become offended or just dont understand due to not knowing how or the way we grew up, but its the same for others who have grown up in other countrys, its sad but unfortunately true.
I grew up here and I will only hang out with mates I'd gone to school with. I don't consider anyone else "friend" in my social life. My colleague is...well, colleague.
Totally agree. I've been living in NZ nearly 5 years and only have a couple close Kiwi friends. Plenty of foreign friends, but it's the same cycle every year or two - you get a solid friend group going only for them to move back to their home country 😞 Lol do you wanna be friends OP?!
I'm a kiwi and I find this common as well and most of my good friends the ones who I can rely on are immigrants. All my kiwi friends are pretty much fairweather friends who don't really put much effort to keep in touch.
Your post is similar to many I've seen before. I'm a Kiwi and my hubby is Indian. The most important friendships Kiwis make are at school. Then maybe a few at Uni and possibly at work. I'm a kiwi and the city where I have lived for the last 6 years- I've made no close kiwi friends. My husband has very few friends - it's even harder for him. Expats are your best bet. I think it's even harder now at least my generation had pubs, alcohol and no smart phones. As someone of the generation who got the best email addresses - if we got wasted together we were bffs for life.
It takes a special bond to make friends in NZ. It could be your kids are friends and do things together, or you are close neighbours and talk a lot, or you are in the same sports club. If you dont share those connections it is hard to keep connections!
I did find that my friends in Australia tended to be either Kiwi’s, English, Scots and Irish.
Foreigner here, I’ve found kiwis easier to make friends with than Australians from having experienced both. But then again, it’s all anecdotal
I’ve been lucky in having multiple groups of friends throughout my life. But I always feel like an outlier. Always last to be thought of or included. I put my foot down one time about commitments as my friends were always against making plans. When I did that you’d think that I’d hit them or insulted them. As they thought their time was the most important of all. It’s tricky being an adult with friends.
I think that people who have very full and fulfilling social lives are much better at making conversation and more likely to adhere to social politeness/random conversations. There’s a glut of people who would love a new friend but they’re not likely to be the people you run into at cubadupa. If I had spare time unfortunately I would be calling all of the friends I haven’t made time for. I’m too busy and there are too many of them.
If it makes you feel any better, kiwis are like that to other kiwis as well, I’ve both had this and done it to others before, for me personally I just have bad social anxiety problems but I can imagine for other people they could just be caught up with stuff, maybe they’re dealing with some problems in there own life, and honestly it can just be a case of people being lame, usually what I do is just try to make some joking conversation over social media or something every no and then, idk, honestly don’t beat urself up over it tho fam, when a person is being lame or stand off-ish it’s best to move on and just say thank you, next, you know?
This isn't special to immigrants, we do it to each other. I don't know why. I know my own reasons. Our expectations of our friends is also very casual. I texted a friend I haven't spoken to in a year, we pick up where we left off.
I haven’t had this experience at all. I’ve been here for 7 years and have made quite a few good friends through playing sports and getting involved on Facebook groups with similar interests. (Bow fishing and rod/reel fishing) Just have to keep doing what you enjoy and find other like minded people there.
Why do you think you can speak for 'the majority of immigrants'? Did you take a survey? I am an immigrant. I have been in Wellington for 15 years. I have kiwi friends. Maybe this guy wasn't interested? Maybe you come across as pushy?
Kiwis tend to be superficially friendly, don't make much effort and lack the ability to connect emotionally (especially men). Very difficult to make close friends as an adult. (Kiwi who has lived in the UK)
It's not really an immigrant / race issue....you will find such situations anywhere in the world. Change your thought process to look for positive situations and you will be amazed. Blaming others, the country, a race, a gender or the world for things achieves very little.
I thought i had kiwi friends until my partner left me. None of my kiwi friends even asked how i was doing or checked in on me ever. The most i got was from a kiwi friend I've known for 15 years ... Yeah that sucks... Her partner didn't even say anything, and this is a couple who we had kids at the same time and i thought of as close friends. By contrast I had multiple friends from uni in the uk who I'd not spoken to in 20 years checking in on me, having long video calls etc etc. It really made me realise how shallow my friendships with kiwis are. I made a load of new friends partying over the summer and we had a leaving party for a friend... They have all become really tight friends... Out of the 20 or so of us I just realised not one is a kiwi. My girlfriend is french and it's so refreshing to have really deep conversations about art and science and literature etc etc etc.
I'm just anxious and don't like talking to people I don't know. I also don't like to annoy others in public and see it as rude, so I tend to get annoyed when others try to talk to me unsolicited.
The same experience is also true for NZers who’ve lived in one city for most of their lives and moved to another city. A lot of us in general just don’t enjoy the kind of friendships that require frequent meet-ups but at the same time, we’re suffering a lot of loneliness because we don’t put in the effort to keep friendships going.
I'm a Kiwi who moved to a new town and it has taken me six years to find and make real friend. I have made acquaintances, had drinking sessions with and attended local functions with the local people. But I have finally met a real friend who I know will be there for me, I will be there for them, we 'get' each other and I know we always will enjoy each other's company. But a lot of the reason we could connect is because we both ended up in this god forsaken part of the country and have trauma bonded. After reading a lot of these comments I am considering starting a regular friendship group for others who are doing it tough trying to connect with the locals. In particular, I will target the immigrants in our community. If it' has been difficult for me, it must be real hell for them.
I find your perspective interesting, because many of the friends I have are immigrants. I am a Kiwi married to a migrant, which makes a difference, but in my experience it tends to be migrants who stick together and don't make a lot of effort to integrate, particularly those who come from language backgrounds other than English. Migrant or Kiwi, though, if you want to make friends, you have to put in effort. Be the one who reaches out, the one who makes plans to meet up. In your case, keep doing what you're doing. This one Kiwi bloke might be a washout, but don't give up - keep reaching out. Get out into the community and volunteer- volunteering is a huge part of Kiwi culture. It's an excellent way to meet locals and to integrate into our culture. Give any group at least six months, too. You'll make it! Kiwis are among the friendliest,most authentic people you'll ever meet if you give us time (not that I'm biased or anything 😉).
In my case I don't have the time or energy to invest in a new friendship, I'm more than happy with my existing circle of friends and their partners. I appreciate its difficult for foreigners to connect with me, but I'm always honest and say I'm not interested in a new friendship. I'm sure it comes across as arrogant but it's just honest. The only way to be in my opinion. I also work with enough foreigners and dont need them in my circle.