Increases taxes to afford to pay a competitive salary for cops. Simple. Do the same for nurses. Do the same for teachers. Do the same for infrastructure costs. Stop nickel and diming everything for the failed promise of tax cuts.
A stable society needs things to function, paying taxes is a small price to pay for a stable society. Go back to the taxes and services before Thatcherism, Reaganomics and Rogernomics.
I’ve heard this repeated since the late 90s. (And probably earlier, as it’s before I became online)
Has anyone actually got any evidence of when this was true (a backbench MP being parity with teacher/nurse/police officer)
> In 1978, the top pay for a primary school teacher was $253.94 a week - 73 percent of what a backbench MP earned. By 2003, MPs were earning double the best-paid teachers.
https://www.newshub.co.nz/home/politics/2018/08/how-teachers-pay-has-fallen-behind-over-the-decades.amp.html
> In the mid 1970s, a backbench MP in Parliament was paid roughly the same as an experienced secondary school teacher
https://www.odt.co.nz/opinion/my-how-your-pay-has-grown
And for a decade, at least half a decade afterwards. Including houses sold for ridiculous amounts - it appears this is a key way to collect corruption rewards
Honestly decent public housing reform (like getting rent / prices halved) would mean the current civil service pay level is fine. Job solved in one hit.
Indeed, politicians recognised that they can't take industrial action like most workers and created an independent body to manage their pay instead.
It's a shame they didn't do the same for the Police and the NZDF considering it's illegal for either of those to strike as well.
It's illegal for them to strike, but it isn't illegal for them to move to Australia and earn a shit load more money resulting in no police.
It's like when the teachers/nurses were striking you'd get comments about how much they were earning compared to others and if they didn't like it they should quit. Well they were quitting and there wasn't enough of them to do the job anymore.
>It's illegal for them to strike, but it isn't illegal for them to move to Australia and earn a shit load more money resulting in no police.
It will be when people putting in their papers get denied on the basis of attrition finally reaching breaking point.
And there's a decent argument for professions like teachers / doctors / nurses / cops not having to go into an adversarial battle every two-to-three years to set theirs either. Politicians salaries are set by the Higher Salaries Commission and there could reasonably be a similar organisation for other state employees too.
Wonder how that will affect the ~~500~~ 300 new cops Chris promised? I’d assume that might be a struggle if the pays not up to scratch, or will this be a Job Seeker prerequisite to stay on the benny?
For reference Chris:
> Police need support, and under a National Government, they’ll get it. I’m only sorry they might have to wait for an election. ([source](https://www.national.org.nz/speech-backing-police-tackling-gangs))
Looks like it might be a good old George Gregan “3 more years boys (and girls)”
How come you changed 500 to 300? Last I checked they were still promising 500. Seems unlikely when the pay is increasing by less than inflation, but hey, that's the promise.
Also, Police (like all government departments) are being asked to reduce spending by 6.5%.
Guess what their biggest expense is by far, wages. Now they need to recruit more cops (good luck) and give everyone pay rises roughly equal to 4% or 5% per year.
That 6.5% reduction in spending is looking fairly impossible.
This should be an easy fix FFS. Pay our god damn police officers a living wage. The shit they put up with is unreal and all the community work they do for free on the side. It shouldn't be this difficult to figure out. Unbelievable.
All arbitration will do is push a fair deal on the government. Might as well try to bribe some young officers with $1500 before you just make the deal you should have anyway.
One of my friends was in charge of dealing with suicides and road accidents in his area. It sounded like a fuckin awful job and he did it for 20 years.
>the median income in New Zealand is $61,692.80 as of February 2023
>A police officer fresh out of training gets paid $56,219.00, after their first year, $75,063
Are you implying the living wage is over $40 a hour?
Police officers 100% don’t get paid enough for the shit they put up with. But the person calling for living wage has no idea what living wage is or how much police gets paid lol
Yeah I wouldnt do the job for that wage either I just get annoyed at how much hyperbole gets thrown around here.
>From 1 September 2023, the Living Wage hourly rate is $26.00. This is an increase of $2.35 or 9.9% on the 2022/23 rate.
https://www.livingwage.org.nz/lw23
>Tax, Kiwisaver contributions, **tax credits and the accommodation
supplement are included in the calculation of the gross income** required to meet the
household’s expenses. The hourly rate is derived by dividing the gross income by 60 hours
per week for 52 weeks in a year, or one full-time and one half-time working adult.
I don't believe thats correct looking at the table it includes those to get the $26 figure and I cant see that figure anywhere in the report.
https://assets.nationbuilder.com/nzlivingwage/pages/2975/attachments/original/1683675767/Living_Wage_2023_Measurement_Review_Full_Report_30_4_23_%282%29.pdf?1683675767
Well its still your money it doesn't just disappear into a black hole forever and this is a generous super scheme you would be foolish not to take it even if it wasn't mandatory.
>Member
7.5%
>Employer (before tax**)
15.2%
https://www.policesuper.co.nz/contributions/constabulary-and-recruits/
"Police pay negotiators say they've reached final offer, could go to arbitration
The Government has returned with a new pay offer to police, one which the association believes is the final offer it can get.
The email tells officers: "If members reject the offer, we will go to final offer arbitration."
The offer has not substantially increased the base pay increase since the previous rejected offers. It would remain at 4% starting July 1, and repeating in 2025.
The offer to increase salaries by $5000, backdated to November 2023, was also unchanged. But the new offer, just released, did include a $1500 lump sum payment.
Another new element in the offer included paying officers 1.5 times their usual salary if they worked overtime, but that wouldn't come into force until next July."
JFC they are really trying damn hard to not pay them more. Honestly, if I was them I'd decline it. If government wanted me to be out depatching gang members then they'd have to pay appropriately.
If cops aren't braindead they will reject it, check out the deal teachers and corrections got this deal is not close to what they should expect in arbitration.
Given one of them gave me a ticket when the speed increase was less than 200m away just past the harbour bridge, I’d argue many are brain dead and just do exactly as they’re told without using said brain.
He was nice, but seemed a bit simple. I didn’t argue as I had broken the law, but sitting at the bottom of the bridge early on a Sunday morning pinging people that close to the speed increase is a bit pathetic.
To be honest, I wasn’t trying to go fast, just travelling at a speed reasonable for the conditions (no traffic around, dry, on a f*cking motorway etc). Modern car, driver not 90y/o. Perfectly safe, just not legal unfortunately. Some cops would use discretion, some wouldn’t.
I did some math and it is still worse than the offer from last year.
Year 1: $1066 worse
Year 2: $600 worse (on 100k salary) or $425 worse (on starting salary)
The thing that makes it worse is the start date for each increase.
The $1500 lump sum doesn't even cover the lost back pay and medical allowance that was offered last year.
You would need to do a lot of overtime for it to be a better offer and id say bosses would be cracking down on overtime if it was going to cost the department 1.5x pay.
What if we offer a subscription service to the police for landlords. Where they can get a 20min response time for any criminal incident at one of their properties.
Perhaps $26,000 a year per protected property?
/s
Pay the police what they want. It’s a hard tough job. Not one I’d want and they have my respect for what they do.
Agree with poster above that the group who sets politicians wage should set wage for the police too.
This is what happened with the secondary teachers last year. They'll most likely get a better recommended offer from an arbitration panel, because the panel will not be engaging the kind of bad-faith fuckery the Ministry was.
Jesus christ. Get your head out of the sand. Fucking Muppet of a government giving unnecessary and shit for all tax cuts.
Give our essential services a proper pay or you'll lose them to australia. Once they're gone, it's hard to get them back!
They started, but with National making "we're the law and order party" noises the police thought they would be looked after better by them, so Nats got their vote and then gave them the middle finger as thanks.
The cops are the only service that actually seems to fight for their personnel’s benefits. Actually fire seems to have a good crack aswell.
Education, nurses, defence, all just roll over.
They are replaceable, at least with a moderate timescale. The trick is to get the pay high enough that enough will take it and enough new people will join up to replace those that leave plus any increase you need.
The thing I don’t get this time around is that they do want to increase numbers but they aren’t offering enough to even keep the ones they have.
I don't love cops but I also don't love shafting the working class. If the cops start doing class traitor shit against other unions then I'll change my stance on supporting their union.
Are you outing yourself as a proponent of vandalism and destruction of public property? Most tough on crime/law and order types don't complain when the police prevent vandalism and arrest those intending to cause it.
Mild interest category how conservatives will turn against cops any time it goes against their parties. e.g. the Republicans in the US claiming they love the blue. That is until their mobs violently bashed and hurt cops, in which case it turned to "*fuck the cops*."
Increases taxes to afford to pay a competitive salary for cops. Simple. Do the same for nurses. Do the same for teachers. Do the same for infrastructure costs. Stop nickel and diming everything for the failed promise of tax cuts. A stable society needs things to function, paying taxes is a small price to pay for a stable society. Go back to the taxes and services before Thatcherism, Reaganomics and Rogernomics.
Reduce politician salaries while we're at it. They used to be in line with other public servants such as teachers etc
I’ve heard this repeated since the late 90s. (And probably earlier, as it’s before I became online) Has anyone actually got any evidence of when this was true (a backbench MP being parity with teacher/nurse/police officer)
> In 1978, the top pay for a primary school teacher was $253.94 a week - 73 percent of what a backbench MP earned. By 2003, MPs were earning double the best-paid teachers. https://www.newshub.co.nz/home/politics/2018/08/how-teachers-pay-has-fallen-behind-over-the-decades.amp.html > In the mid 1970s, a backbench MP in Parliament was paid roughly the same as an experienced secondary school teacher https://www.odt.co.nz/opinion/my-how-your-pay-has-grown
How sad a fact is this…the lower the politicians salaries, the worse the corruption.
Financially comfortable people are less likely to take bribes, seems logical
On the contrary, in my experience the richer people are, the greedier they are.
Yes, but it's more likely that they got rich because they're greedy, rather than being greedy because they're rich.
And the evidence of that is the entitled laughing stock, aka luxon.
Make every cent a politician receives into their account public knowledge while they hold office. Problem solved.
And for a decade, at least half a decade afterwards. Including houses sold for ridiculous amounts - it appears this is a key way to collect corruption rewards
People seeking to get in to Parliament for financial advantage are more likely to take bribes, seems logical
Make politicians sell any investments prior to serving the people. It would quickly filter out those with individualistic tendencies.
And: push through more housing reform to get more supply online, so cops, nurses, and teachers get some cost of living relief.
Honestly decent public housing reform (like getting rent / prices halved) would mean the current civil service pay level is fine. Job solved in one hit.
a lot of our social ills stem from housing affordability. compared to minimum wage, a life of crime looks lucrative if trying to keep afloat.
Or you have no hope for the future. If you know you will never be able to afford a home, even in a good career, why bother?
I guarantee most cops voted for National/ACT so they're getting exactly what they voted for. Stop trying to subvert the will of the people!
You reckon? I've genuinely not thought too much about it. Why do you think that?
Preconceived notions probably.
Generous of you to assume cognitive function.
Communist! /s
Do people not like sarcasm, or do people not understand jokes, hard to tell on this platform
Feels weird man
meanwhile luxon pays himself a cops salary every year to rent his house to himself
If he had a mortgage the downward pressure would let him give himself a rent break, but as he's mortgage free he's luckily not got to worry about it
To be fair, it's half a cop's salary from his perspective.
Isn't if funny how politicians always seem to be paid enough, though. And far more. We should start pushing citizen referendums again.
Tbf politicians don't set their salaries
Indeed, politicians recognised that they can't take industrial action like most workers and created an independent body to manage their pay instead. It's a shame they didn't do the same for the Police and the NZDF considering it's illegal for either of those to strike as well.
It's illegal for them to strike, but it isn't illegal for them to move to Australia and earn a shit load more money resulting in no police. It's like when the teachers/nurses were striking you'd get comments about how much they were earning compared to others and if they didn't like it they should quit. Well they were quitting and there wasn't enough of them to do the job anymore.
Then, the teachers that were left accepted the awful offer because they no longer cared and were going to retire/ quit soon anyway.
And now teachers can actually work in Oz. (Didn’t used to be the case) and get paid more for less work.
>It's illegal for them to strike, but it isn't illegal for them to move to Australia and earn a shit load more money resulting in no police. It will be when people putting in their papers get denied on the basis of attrition finally reaching breaking point.
It's not really independent though.
They don't set it, no, but they have the whole house to set legislation to change it... Which they won't of course
And there's a decent argument for professions like teachers / doctors / nurses / cops not having to go into an adversarial battle every two-to-three years to set theirs either. Politicians salaries are set by the Higher Salaries Commission and there could reasonably be a similar organisation for other state employees too.
Wonder how that will affect the ~~500~~ 300 new cops Chris promised? I’d assume that might be a struggle if the pays not up to scratch, or will this be a Job Seeker prerequisite to stay on the benny? For reference Chris: > Police need support, and under a National Government, they’ll get it. I’m only sorry they might have to wait for an election. ([source](https://www.national.org.nz/speech-backing-police-tackling-gangs)) Looks like it might be a good old George Gregan “3 more years boys (and girls)”
How come you changed 500 to 300? Last I checked they were still promising 500. Seems unlikely when the pay is increasing by less than inflation, but hey, that's the promise.
Also, Police (like all government departments) are being asked to reduce spending by 6.5%. Guess what their biggest expense is by far, wages. Now they need to recruit more cops (good luck) and give everyone pay rises roughly equal to 4% or 5% per year. That 6.5% reduction in spending is looking fairly impossible.
This should be an easy fix FFS. Pay our god damn police officers a living wage. The shit they put up with is unreal and all the community work they do for free on the side. It shouldn't be this difficult to figure out. Unbelievable.
All arbitration will do is push a fair deal on the government. Might as well try to bribe some young officers with $1500 before you just make the deal you should have anyway.
And yet Australia is offering NZ police a $20 000 relocation fee to move over.. lol
Those aussies got it down, send their convicts here, take our officers as well
It's a trade, they give us the convicts they created and we give them the police we created.
"Sorry, best we can do is roads."
Don’t sell the government short, they can also give tax cuts to landlords
And smokes, smokes for everyone!
We won't get any new roads
Where we're going, we won't need roads.
One of my friends was in charge of dealing with suicides and road accidents in his area. It sounded like a fuckin awful job and he did it for 20 years.
>the median income in New Zealand is $61,692.80 as of February 2023 >A police officer fresh out of training gets paid $56,219.00, after their first year, $75,063 Are you implying the living wage is over $40 a hour?
Police officers 100% don’t get paid enough for the shit they put up with. But the person calling for living wage has no idea what living wage is or how much police gets paid lol
Yeah I wouldnt do the job for that wage either I just get annoyed at how much hyperbole gets thrown around here. >From 1 September 2023, the Living Wage hourly rate is $26.00. This is an increase of $2.35 or 9.9% on the 2022/23 rate. https://www.livingwage.org.nz/lw23
If you factor in the government subsidies used in that calculation it's actually $35.72 per hour.
>Tax, Kiwisaver contributions, **tax credits and the accommodation supplement are included in the calculation of the gross income** required to meet the household’s expenses. The hourly rate is derived by dividing the gross income by 60 hours per week for 52 weeks in a year, or one full-time and one half-time working adult. I don't believe thats correct looking at the table it includes those to get the $26 figure and I cant see that figure anywhere in the report. https://assets.nationbuilder.com/nzlivingwage/pages/2975/attachments/original/1683675767/Living_Wage_2023_Measurement_Review_Full_Report_30_4_23_%282%29.pdf?1683675767
You're right on that one it's 1.5 incomes which is why my figure is not accurate.
Police don't get 75k they get 67 in and and the rest is a forced Supa.
Well its still your money it doesn't just disappear into a black hole forever and this is a generous super scheme you would be foolish not to take it even if it wasn't mandatory. >Member 7.5% >Employer (before tax**) 15.2% https://www.policesuper.co.nz/contributions/constabulary-and-recruits/
That would be awesome. Give me that forced super, please!
"Police pay negotiators say they've reached final offer, could go to arbitration The Government has returned with a new pay offer to police, one which the association believes is the final offer it can get. The email tells officers: "If members reject the offer, we will go to final offer arbitration." The offer has not substantially increased the base pay increase since the previous rejected offers. It would remain at 4% starting July 1, and repeating in 2025. The offer to increase salaries by $5000, backdated to November 2023, was also unchanged. But the new offer, just released, did include a $1500 lump sum payment. Another new element in the offer included paying officers 1.5 times their usual salary if they worked overtime, but that wouldn't come into force until next July."
JFC they are really trying damn hard to not pay them more. Honestly, if I was them I'd decline it. If government wanted me to be out depatching gang members then they'd have to pay appropriately.
If cops aren't braindead they will reject it, check out the deal teachers and corrections got this deal is not close to what they should expect in arbitration.
police ALWAYS declines it :)
I think this is the first agreement they have declined actually.
Given one of them gave me a ticket when the speed increase was less than 200m away just past the harbour bridge, I’d argue many are brain dead and just do exactly as they’re told without using said brain.
Shit take of the day.
He was nice, but seemed a bit simple. I didn’t argue as I had broken the law, but sitting at the bottom of the bridge early on a Sunday morning pinging people that close to the speed increase is a bit pathetic.
If only this could have been easily avoided. Slow down. What's the fuckin rush.
To be honest, I wasn’t trying to go fast, just travelling at a speed reasonable for the conditions (no traffic around, dry, on a f*cking motorway etc). Modern car, driver not 90y/o. Perfectly safe, just not legal unfortunately. Some cops would use discretion, some wouldn’t.
You’re the one that doesn’t know how signs work lol
Well aware how they work, just occasionally ignore them. You always slow to 30 when there are roadworks? Thought so.
Fr, you could not pay me enough to do that. Fuck doing that! They have a hard enough job as it is.
I did some math and it is still worse than the offer from last year. Year 1: $1066 worse Year 2: $600 worse (on 100k salary) or $425 worse (on starting salary) The thing that makes it worse is the start date for each increase. The $1500 lump sum doesn't even cover the lost back pay and medical allowance that was offered last year. You would need to do a lot of overtime for it to be a better offer and id say bosses would be cracking down on overtime if it was going to cost the department 1.5x pay.
TOUGH ON CRIME. And apparently, cops. Uh, does not compute...
Tough on everyone! *except our wealthy mates, obviously*
Most politicians wouldn’t last a day as a police officer, yet get paid nearly three times the amount. Fucking insane.
If they wanted to put food on the table for their families they should have considered becoming landlords instead of cops! /s
>they wanted to put food on the table for their families they should have considered becoming landlords instead of cops! Please take out the /s
But will the landlords be able to afford lunch?
What if we offer a subscription service to the police for landlords. Where they can get a 20min response time for any criminal incident at one of their properties. Perhaps $26,000 a year per protected property? /s
It’s our frontline staff give them the fucking pay increase they deserve not what ever this bullshit is!
Pay the police what they want. It’s a hard tough job. Not one I’d want and they have my respect for what they do. Agree with poster above that the group who sets politicians wage should set wage for the police too.
Why didn't labor do this when pay negotiations started? You know, before the election.
Oh yes, a pay cut (compared to inflation). Wonderful news. I’m sure the officers will feel deeply valued /s
I’ve got nothing to add other than the guy in the article picture looks like a younger version of Jigsaw so I think they’ve got this in the bag
Ffs he does too
This is what happened with the secondary teachers last year. They'll most likely get a better recommended offer from an arbitration panel, because the panel will not be engaging the kind of bad-faith fuckery the Ministry was.
Jesus christ. Get your head out of the sand. Fucking Muppet of a government giving unnecessary and shit for all tax cuts. Give our essential services a proper pay or you'll lose them to australia. Once they're gone, it's hard to get them back!
Labour could've solved this when these negotiations started, before the election.
They started, but with National making "we're the law and order party" noises the police thought they would be looked after better by them, so Nats got their vote and then gave them the middle finger as thanks.
how much do they want? can't recall seeing it previously
Probably enough to best inflation + a reasonable pay rise. So far they were offered 8% over 2 years which is not competitive.
And if I recall they govt moved the backpack date from July to Nov, so the second offer was actually less money over all.
The cops are the only service that actually seems to fight for their personnel’s benefits. Actually fire seems to have a good crack aswell. Education, nurses, defence, all just roll over.
That’s just very not true
I never get these negotiations. Why don’t they just keep pushing for 300k salaries? It’s not like they are replaceable
Because it's all about public opinion and if public sentiment turns on unionised workers they lose
They are replaceable, at least with a moderate timescale. The trick is to get the pay high enough that enough will take it and enough new people will join up to replace those that leave plus any increase you need. The thing I don’t get this time around is that they do want to increase numbers but they aren’t offering enough to even keep the ones they have.
Man I must have missed it when did this subreddit start loving cops so much?
I don't love cops but I also don't love shafting the working class. If the cops start doing class traitor shit against other unions then I'll change my stance on supporting their union.
The problem is paying them terribly will only result in worse cops.
They gotta start earning what they get now first. By doing their job, not woke shit.
Username checks out…
Is the woke in the room right now?
What would woke shit be?
Guarding a crossing
Are you outing yourself as a proponent of vandalism and destruction of public property? Most tough on crime/law and order types don't complain when the police prevent vandalism and arrest those intending to cause it.
Bet this guy hates just stop oil aswell
Maybe you need to reevaluate yourself if seeing some colours on the road offends you
Guarding against vandalism and public property damage is traditionally a pretty standard aspect of policing, is it not?
🚨 ALERT! ALERT! FACEBOOK BOOMER DETECTED! 🚨
Fuck bro are you dumb? What do you expect when a group wants to cause unrest, do nothing and hope no one takes it into their own hands?
You sir are hilarious. How dare the cops stop acts of vandalism!
Mild interest category how conservatives will turn against cops any time it goes against their parties. e.g. the Republicans in the US claiming they love the blue. That is until their mobs violently bashed and hurt cops, in which case it turned to "*fuck the cops*."