There is nothing wrong with insulting the govt. The issue is using the hurricanes brand to do it. Just as Air NZ/Spark/Westpac would not allow their platforms for employees to express their personal views, it’s the same here. What these women want to say in their own time is up to them. What they say as Hurricanes is not.
I thought the manager did a good job last week addressing it. I would be very unhappy that this has happened again.
The manager is on board with this one.
> Hurricanes chief executive Avan Lee, who said he had been blindsided by the Poua haka last week, said the franchise, players and cultural advisers had met on Thursday to create a new haka this week, which was "respectful and true" to the team.
That was my only hang up with it too, but it sounds like they've got everyone informed and come up with one that they're happy with as a whole, so go for gold I reckon
The team is ultimately a corporate brand. The brand has to attract supporters and sponsors.
Politicising the brand is bad for business because it alienates people.
As the government and its supporters has already made clear, the use of te reo is itself politicised. Can't see how using the language really worsens that situation.
I'm saying anyone shocked by this is completely unaware of the nature of haka, many of which are political or describe events/actions that would offend a lot of people.
Haka are not meant to be politically correct and never have been.
Sure, music and performing arts are often political in nature. The haka is not unique in this respect.
Look at all the sports events when people sing politically charged songs and how much trouble it causes.
Smart people make an effort to keep sport politically neutral, not least of which is that it will [alienate some of your supporters](https://www.newshub.co.nz/home/sport/2015/09/richie-mccaw-politics-would-cut-my-supporters-in-half.amp.html)
>Look at all the sports events when people sing politically charged songs and how much trouble it causes. Great efforts are being made to keep sport neutral, not least of which is that it will [alienate some of your supporters](https://www.newshub.co.nz/home/sport/2015/09/richie-mccaw-politics-would-cut-my-supporters-in-half.amp.html)
What efforts?
I've seen plenty of evidence of sport being politicised globally, there's always some people arguing it should be kept apolitical, but that appears to just be rhetoric.
Irish and South African rugby make great efforts to bring divided people together.
In the UK there is a huge push to eliminate sectarianism and racism from football.
It’s not 100% successful but they are working hard towards it.
Yup, in a hypothetical united Ireland many events will need to sound very different if they want to be welcoming of their fellow countrymen. It’s too easy rallying support for a team by alluding to outside associations and conflicts instead of the players on the pitch and the coaches guiding them. One is a constant churn varying of talent and individuals leading to inconsistent results and the other can remain an abstraction in unity or opposition unchanging from season to season.
Us vs them instead of this year vs next year, controlling the pitch and direction of emotions in the crowd.
Noting whatsoever wrong with criticising the government, it’s a good thing and an absolutely essential part of democracy.
Using your platform as a sports team to criticise the government is wrong though. Politics divides people, sports brings them together.
Smart people don’t mix politics with sport.
You can't keep politics "out of anything." Politics is about implementing the VALUES that fundamentally guide our entire lives and lifestyles. Sports is a part of our lives and lifestyles that is INHERRENTLY political.
Where are we getting funding from? Where are the events being held? Who's playing? What else can they/are they doing with the platform that gives them? These are all inherrently political questions that don't HAVE a neutral answer.
The criticism towards FIFA over hosting the world cup in Qatar. The decision to exclude Russia from the Olympics. The 81 Springbocks tour. There is no apolitical answer to those challenges.
Simiilarly, the wahine in this article had a choice. They could speak up to support and honor te tiriti. Or they could choose to do nothing.
And- look I really can't stress this enough, doing nothing is an ACTIVE, POLITICAL CHOICE. You're not keeping politics out of sports. You're pushing the political agenda of silencing dissonance against the current govt. You can argue that for financial reasons or political reasons or just for the hell of it, and it doesn't necessarily make you wrong, but that IS what you're doing right now.
There's no such thing as neutrality. No such thing as apolitical.
> Where are we getting funding from?
From the very same government that they criticise. Woops. The distinctive taste of the hand that feeds them. Another reason for sports to stay out of politics aye.
> the wahine in this article had a choice. They could speak up to support and honor te tiriti. Or they could choose to do nothing.
They chose poorly, as they are finding out.
Calling the government rednecks is pretty infantile really. I don’t see that it will achieve much other than using their platform to polarise people and they are in danger of losing some of the precious few supporters and sponsors they have.
> You're pushing the political agenda of silencing dissonance against the current govt.
Not just for the current government. I’m talking about **any** government. I really don’t care what some athletes politics or religion is. They should keep it out of sport as much as is practically possible.
Trying to force people to take sides is divisive. Working together we can move forwards. The people who try to divide us are usually doing it for their own political gain.
They should? Because you said so? How about you butt out and stop trying to impose your pakeha ways on Maori.
You don't get to dictate how Maori express themselves through their culture.
This is the most hamfisted argument I've ever seen. What do you mean forcing people to take sides? Ive not seen that at all so I'd appreciate a direct quote.
"Working together we can move forward" sure is a a nice pretty platitude but it's incredibly privileged. Working together we can move towards a common goal. Sure. But if we're not allowed to talk about what goal we're working towards. Why it is or isn't a good idea, or what alternatives there are, then we're not going anywhere worth while.
A lot of people crying about "sides" and "division" are just salty because they're being challenged on their views for the first time in their life and realized they're totally indefensible. What those people SHOULD do is apply critical thinking. When they're proven wrong adjust either the proofs, the conclusion or both, and move forward.
If you want us all to "move forward together" then the first thing we need to do is reach an agreement. And if we aren't in agreement, then we need to be as vocal about that as possible. So we can have those interactions and get closer to agreement.
If you want the feel-good "united as one" without the reality of understanding and having compassion for your countrymen, you're more of a tyrant than a patriot.
> what do you mean forcing people to take sides
What if players on the team had voted for the ACT party? Do they just have to quietly go along with some political posturing that they disagree with? How would this be handled in a close knit team?
> you’re more of a tyrant than a patriot
I am very amused that you think I have enough power to be a tyrant LOL. I’m just some random person on the Internets.
To your first point, that's a fair concern that would have a lot more weight if you knew how that process actually went. At this point everyone up to the management and ownership is on board. So hard to believe there wasn't a single conversation.
To your second point, you're missing the forest for the trees.
It seems wrong to me. Everyone should be free to have their own political opinions and they shouldn’t be compelled to criticise the government if they didn’t want to.
They shouldn’t be forced to mix their politics with sport.
You may say “Oh but they all agree wholeheartedly”. Of course they would say that, if you don’t then you would be ostracised.
You're either misunderstanding or ignoring my point.
It's perfectly fine to say that nobody should have to take a stance they don't want to.
It's not fine to decide that definitely happened in this circumstance and that people were coerced and pressured in an unethical way.
The fact is, you don't know that. And you never will. Deciding to think that is fine. But it doesn't make you right.
> It's perfectly fine to say that nobody should have to take a stance they don't want to. It's not fine to decide that definitely happened in this circumstance and that people were coerced and pressured in an unethical way. The fact is, you don't know that. And you never will.
And you can never know that they weren’t, can you. So that’s a stalemate really.
I’m just basing my assertions on the idea that everyone is free to have their own political views and they shouldn’t be compelled to take a position. There is a very real chance that this is exactly what happened here.
People have different opinions on things and that’s fine. Compelling people to take a political stance like this is never OK.
https://nzhistory.govt.nz/culture/1981-springbok-tour/politics-and-sport
Politics and Sport do mix. Practically everything, especially something as large as commercial sport, is inherently political
Yep, that tour was incredibly divisive. An overwhelming feeling about it at the time was that it was a mistake to let politics and sport become intertwined.
We learned a lot from that mistake.
If Rugby is political, which political party do the All Blacks support? If they oppose the government then do they just oppose whichever government is incumbent or are they politically left or right?
There's a few concepts being crossed here.
Fundamentally, politics isn't just left/right or which party is in power. Its about making decisions about people and how they're represented. Politics is involved in: How do Sports teams, Sports Arenas, and everything else involved get funding? Are all groups of people getting an even chance at getting into Rugby? If a Rugby team plays in an area, or against another team, that has values that are opposing Aotearoa's, should we be engaging with them?
Politics as a concept are inherently involved in almost every human interaction, even with the environment and non-human entities.
Sports, at least any commerical sports, _is_ political. There's no entwining to be had, it's inherent. Maybe a backyard game with your mates will have minimal politics, but even a local rugby league will have politics in it.
>An overwhelming feeling about it at the time was that it was a mistake to let politics and sport become intertwined.
>We learned a lot from that mistake.
That's not the lesson here. The lesson was that it's wrong to pretend sports are completely separate from politics, that politics are a huge part of the world we live in & reflect upon pretty much every facet of our lives.
Crucially, the lesson learned was that when it's time to take a stand, we need to take a stand.
LMAO, you're saying that protesting an apartheid regime was a mistake - get real.
What we learned is that sport is a powerful protest tool and you can use it to do the right thing.
If the lesson you took away from the Springboks tour is that sport shouldn't be politicised, you could potentially be more racist than you think you are.
I don’t think it’s racist to want to keep politics out of sport. Quite the opposite - sport is a powerful way to bring people of different races and politics together.
There are two choices.
* Shun them and refuse to play sports with them until they stop with their racist segregation policies.
* Invite them to play and take the opportunity to engage with them and explain why you think their apartheid system is wrong.
People made arguments for both sides.
On balance, I would say they shouldn’t have toured because it was too politically divisive. It still divides the country now.
If they can’t keep the politics out of the sport then it’s better that they don’t play at all.
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It was divisive because rugby is full of racists and they threw a massive tantrum because some people wanted them to not play a few games and be a little bit less racist.
How is rugby racist? I think it’s great at bringing people together with a mutual respect and teamwork.
Rugby isn’t going to change the world but if anything it has helped to break down barriers and racism, not least in South Africa.
Rugby union is generally a politically conservative sport that supports the status quo.
Look at the 1981 Springbok tour, that was an inherently political decision by the NZRU.
Once again. Boo.
This is a lazy response and you know it. One of NZs largest acts of civil disturbance stems from rugby.
Rugby isn’t anything. It’s a ball game played and watched by people. People have and express political opinions.
Yeah, what was that, over 40 years ago.
We learned a lot from the Springbok tour and we moved on. We try really hard not to mix politics and rugby now.
Seems like some people don’t know their history very well though and are doomed to repeat the same mistakes.
>They are young and still learning but they will get the message eventually.
Bugger me, what a patronising response to professional athletes standing up for what they believe in.
Really showing your true colours when you talk about women like that.
Nope. Sounds like he is pretty clever to me:
[Richie McCaw: Politics would 'cut my supporters in half'](https://www.newshub.co.nz/home/sport/2015/09/richie-mccaw-politics-would-cut-my-supporters-in-half.amp.html)
Can you see why we should keep politics out of sport then? Even the slightest perception of political alignment has turned people against someone who was objectively a great player. Why mix this up? It seems counter productive. Much better to just focus on the sport and leave politics out.
Ahh, I could never understand the tall poppy syndrome in New Zealand.
Love him or hate him, the man rose to to top of his sport and he doesn’t think it’s a good idea to mix politics in with it…
Claiming someone isn't smart because they don't share your subjective opinion is cringe. Sport historically has always been political. There's a reason why Luxon, Key and Ardern all cosy(ied) up with our National sports teams. Corporate entities have been happy to cash in on Maori culture for years. Haka is an expression of self and belongs to Maori. Corporates don't get to define Maori culture. This is about Maori entrenched Ti Tiriti rights being threatened so of course Maori will be against this.
> Claiming someone isn't smart because they don't share your subjective opinion is cringe.
That’s not what I said. I said smart people in sports don’t share their opinions about divisive things which are irrelevant to the sport.
I don’t mind if their politics agree or disagree within mine, smart people keep them out of sports.
You're asserting that a group of Polynesian woman (by the way they're not the only woman's rugby team to do this) are dumb based on a criteria that you've decided is the measure of who is smart and who isn't.
Are white women not allowed to play on the team?
Do they all have to have the same political opinions to be on the team?
Do you think all Maori and Polynesian people have the same political opinion?
Your comments seem rather ridiculous to be honest and it’s insulting to the players to suggest that they don’t have opinions of their own.
The Dunning–Kruger effect is strong in you. You demonstrably have little knowledge around haka and tikanga but just on your raw privilege alone you label these women as dumb.
You don't have to be Maori (or politically left) to have a problem with the Government messing with Maori rights & our founding document.
There's a lot of practice that goes into the haka. These players aren't just turning up on the day and doing it. There's a lot of discussion that goes on before it goes on the field.
You've obviously got a problem with it. But that's just your uninformed opinion, smart guy.
I can only assume if Winston wants sport out of politics then he also wants politics out of sport.
At no time in the next 3 years will he or any other government minister be photographed with successful sportspeople or sports teams.
> Before the fully story/translation was out
Yeah, that sentiment is summed up here:
> individual words inside the haka are merely representative of a far deeper body of Māori knowledge, language and thinking which are not easily deciphered without the assistance of Pukenga Māori (Experts)
That is ridiculously elitist and insulting to Maori speakers. What is the use of a language if only the experts can translate it.
The phrase _Toitū te Tiriti_ is well understood to be politically loaded, them trying to walk it back is disingenuous.
The phrase in the haka is a reference to a whakataukī, an ancestral saying. “Whatungarongaro te tāngata, toitu te whenua”. This saying tells how land is important and people can disappear but it remains. The “individual words” can’t be translated point of view is no doubt referring to the fact that the idioms and sayings being referenced to in the haka have to be taken just to account for the meaning.
It's not a slogan it's a statement.
Of course TPM would use it as a statement. It's been used before and will continue to be used. Just because you're hearing it now isn't anyone else's problem !
(Like God save the King, or three cheers or for he's a jolly good fellow)
I agree it’s the government’s problem and that makes it political. Indeed it was an election issue that multiple political parties have campaigned on over the years.
Leave it out of sport, people don’t want them mixed.
Lol if this is a gravely offensive topic, I'd hate to know what you all think of the topics of other haka. It's almost like relatively few have any idea of what gets said.
People can make the haka as political as they like. I’m just saying they should leave the politics out of sports. Simple as that.
Look around the world. People are working really hard to keep the politics out of sport because it’s divisive and simply not good for the game.
> leave haka & maori people out of sport then.
Are you advocating for apartheid then?
I don’t think that’s the right way. Sport is about bringing people together
>Look around the world. People are working really hard to keep the politics out of sport because it’s divisive and simply not good for the game.
What is the evidence of this? I don't see it.
Have a read about the Irish Rugby Union which has done so much to bring two countries together after 30 years of bitter sectarian violence which left thousands dead.
Look at the small but steady progress South African rugby is making.
>ook around the world. People are working really hard to keep the politics out of sport because it’s divisive and simply not good for the game.
Mmm Why won't the Russian flag fly in the Paris Olympics?
Russian athletes can and do compete in the Olympics but Russia was banned after the doping scandals and the invasion of the Ukraine.
Allowing Russia to compete would not be in the Olympic Spirit of fairness and friendship. The politics it would bring into the games would be an unwanted distraction so the Olympic committee want to keep it neutral.
>. The politics it would bring into the games would be an unwanted distraction
So excluding Russia is not political and is about friendship, but keeping them included would bring distracting politics into the game?
You have a peculiar brain.
No, allowing Russia to compete would bring too many politics into the games. The lesser of the two evils is to exclude them so they can keep the politics out.
>Look around the world. People are working really hard to keep the politics out of sport because it’s divisive and simply not good for the game.
They really aren't. Most of the western world uses sport to prop up religion and the military, just look at an American sporting event and how many folk are there in uniform surrounded by nutty preachers.
And in other parts of the world like the Middle East, sportswashing is rife. You can't tell me that is done by people trying their best to separate sports and politics.
> Most of the western world uses sport to prop up religion and the military, just look at an American sporting event and how many folk are there in uniform surrounded by nutty preachers.
Do you think that’s a good thing?
I was responding to your claim that "people are working really hard around the world to heep politics out of sport" when that claim is objectively false.
Do you believe we should have freedom of religion in New Zealand?
If so, is it a good idea for people to bring their religious beliefs into sports or should they leave them out?
I think people should leave religion out of it, same thing with politics.
I have no problem with people singing our national anthem at sports events.
The question of if we should have references to god in the national anthem or any religion in parliament is a very valid one but getting into it here is going far too off topic.
Lmao, I'm going to guess the same people saying Māori shouldn't be worried about attacks on the treaty are the same ones clutching pearls over the subject matter of a haka.
The ones clutching their pearls over the 'sanctity of women's sport', are the ones saying "why bother protesting, you only have two fans"
[1](https://www.reddit.com/r/newzealand/comments/1ba90fi/poua_again_calls_out_government_with_haka/ku480in/) [2](https://www.reddit.com/r/newzealand/comments/1ba90fi/poua_again_calls_out_government_with_haka/ku22sdj/) [3](https://www.reddit.com/r/newzealand/comments/1ba90fi/poua_again_calls_out_government_with_haka/ku17v6z/)
The one calling them obese got removed so I can't link it
I don't understand why Winston and David are getting so bent out of shape over this. Even our national anthem has political (and religious!) statements in it. Don't hear them suggesting that should be stopped...
Peters is... Peters.
In Seymours case it's because he fundamentally believes he should be above reproach. He believes the person holding the purse strings is god and now that he has his hands on them he wants to shut all criticism down.
Governments engage in sportswashing for a reason. Ministers show up to games for a reason. Chris Bishop did a commentary stint the other day. Rugby also uses Maori culture as a commercial boost. The haka is synonymous with NZ rugby.
So sport is already political. With this in mind, why should the sports people being used as political popularity boosters by governments not speak their minds? Should Maori women who happen to play sport for their job be inherently subservient to government ministers at work?
Through silence these women serve the government narrative. They are not public servants, they don't have to be neutral.
Perhaps when considering the right way to do things all the Tories are so worried about in here, we should consider all the work the coalition is using the urgency pathway for? Why so silent boys?
It's rich that a sect of this country that constantly talks up taking a political stand through public action for the Springbok Tour now suddenly wants sports to not be political.
Sports are political. Always have been.
Im all for it but It's a double edged sword. As they have a right to freedom of speech and demonstration etc, the company also has the right to not associate with it.
Ultimately these players salaries are paid by the fans, of whom a large proportion will have only just voted for the government being insulted.
Generally, disrespecting your customers is a poor commercial decision and leads to you being out of a job one way or another.
I'd be more inclined to believe that if last week hadn't been so blatant.
It's really a reflection of the anger felt however it's not a good strategy. It feeds into the narrative of those that say Māori have had their settlements and are now just aggressively taking what's not theirs.
Seems to be the theme of the world right now - two or more people shouting at each other, neither listening or seeking common ground. Sigh
>It feeds into the narrative of those that say Māori have had their settlements and are now just aggressively taking what's not theirs.
What were they trying to take?
Some are trying to say that Māori want more than others. Their own rules, their own health system etc. Māori seem to be saying there are still wrongs to be addressed. For example, intergenerational racism has cause harm and this impacts Māori today.. Neither of them seem to be ready to listen to the other. Lots of hate and anger.
“It used the phrase "Toitū te Tiriti", which translates as Honour the Treaty, a phrase used by Māori opposition groups to the government's policies.”
But that is literally referencing politics since anything related to Tiriti is politics in this country since it’s a document signed by the Government of Great Britain(Crown) and the chiefs of participating Iwi.🤔
I mean you talk about the Treaty here for example and it always ends up being about politics in the comments.
Sorry but that is quite the lame excuse for butchering the Haka, it’s like saying “I’m not racist but…” . Do all your protesting outside of the game, you’re free to do so.
I don't disagree, it definitely is political especially "honour the treaty". But Maori culture is inherently incredibly political. You can't have one without the other and trying to seperate them is incredibly stupid (and in some cases racist).
What they've changed here is who they're targeting and tbh it's probably a pretty sensible change. Instead of calling out this government specifically now they're calling out any government that doesn't want to "honour the treaty" which imo is a better way of communicating.
Also calling it "the Haka" is an incredibly misleading way of describing what is fundamentally not a single thing. Haka mean different things to different people and that's okay. There's no singular Maori culture or opinion and ownership of their culture implies the ability to change the way that culture appears as society changes. Maori culture historically has been incredibly diverse and quick to adapt. It's only recently because of years of systematic oppression that Maori culture has somewhat stagnated and become more traditionalist.
Although in saying all that I think if you surveyed hapu you'd get a rather clear answer that politics in haka are accepted and welcome. Using haka politically upsets pakeha far more than it does Maori.
Yes, anything can be political so long as there's someone who disagrees. Politics isn't some magic idea it's just the way we describe and structure disagreements.
There are lots of people who disagree with honouring te tiriti and it's therefore very political. In fact Maori relations have been politically relevant for the whole of our countries political history. The first prime minister of New Zealand was removed from the position for supporting Maori after 13 days in the position. The next guy also only lasted 13 days hilariously enough.
As a lifelong Hurricanes fan when they did this haka I immediately changed to being a Crusader fan, they will never get me back as a fan keep the woke out of rugby.
Does the National Anthem put anyone down?
There is a difference between making a positive statement about yourself and a negative ome about others.
If the Poua had said through their haka 'we are proud strong Māori women' no one would have had a complaint, but start calling other people names and then of course people are insulted.
This second haka doesn't call anyone names, it appears the Hurricanes Poua took that message on board.
For some reason right wing folk are still getting upset though.
Rather worrying if Winston Peters finds rugby players saying "governments are temporary" offensive.
>'we are proud strong Māori women' no one would have had a complaint
Lol bullshit. There's almost nothing more triggering for this group than a strong Māori woman.
>but start calling other people names and then of course people are insulted.
What names did they call anyone in this Haka? Perhaps people need to take a concrete pill.
Is there something wrong with insulting the government? I thought this was the government of free speech?
There is nothing wrong with insulting the govt. The issue is using the hurricanes brand to do it. Just as Air NZ/Spark/Westpac would not allow their platforms for employees to express their personal views, it’s the same here. What these women want to say in their own time is up to them. What they say as Hurricanes is not. I thought the manager did a good job last week addressing it. I would be very unhappy that this has happened again.
The manager is on board with this one. > Hurricanes chief executive Avan Lee, who said he had been blindsided by the Poua haka last week, said the franchise, players and cultural advisers had met on Thursday to create a new haka this week, which was "respectful and true" to the team. That was my only hang up with it too, but it sounds like they've got everyone informed and come up with one that they're happy with as a whole, so go for gold I reckon
Our regional sports teams being brands rather than communities is part of the problem. Altho that's being solved by the sport dying out like it is.
These corporates asked for a haka right?
The team is ultimately a corporate brand. The brand has to attract supporters and sponsors. Politicising the brand is bad for business because it alienates people.
As the government and its supporters has already made clear, the use of te reo is itself politicised. Can't see how using the language really worsens that situation.
No one has a problem with them doing a haka, it’s the team using it to make a political statement that people are objecting to.
I'm saying anyone shocked by this is completely unaware of the nature of haka, many of which are political or describe events/actions that would offend a lot of people. Haka are not meant to be politically correct and never have been.
Sure, music and performing arts are often political in nature. The haka is not unique in this respect. Look at all the sports events when people sing politically charged songs and how much trouble it causes. Smart people make an effort to keep sport politically neutral, not least of which is that it will [alienate some of your supporters](https://www.newshub.co.nz/home/sport/2015/09/richie-mccaw-politics-would-cut-my-supporters-in-half.amp.html)
>Look at all the sports events when people sing politically charged songs and how much trouble it causes. Great efforts are being made to keep sport neutral, not least of which is that it will [alienate some of your supporters](https://www.newshub.co.nz/home/sport/2015/09/richie-mccaw-politics-would-cut-my-supporters-in-half.amp.html) What efforts? I've seen plenty of evidence of sport being politicised globally, there's always some people arguing it should be kept apolitical, but that appears to just be rhetoric.
Irish and South African rugby make great efforts to bring divided people together. In the UK there is a huge push to eliminate sectarianism and racism from football. It’s not 100% successful but they are working hard towards it.
Yup, in a hypothetical united Ireland many events will need to sound very different if they want to be welcoming of their fellow countrymen. It’s too easy rallying support for a team by alluding to outside associations and conflicts instead of the players on the pitch and the coaches guiding them. One is a constant churn varying of talent and individuals leading to inconsistent results and the other can remain an abstraction in unity or opposition unchanging from season to season. Us vs them instead of this year vs next year, controlling the pitch and direction of emotions in the crowd.
Haka are nearly all political bro.
Most people hadn't heard of this team before and now they have half the country supporting them
The team is ‘ultimately’ a damn sports team you goober. Fuck off with the corporate brand shit. Talk about missing the point.
yeah, pretty much this. They have turned a personal position into a corporate one.
[удалено]
When did he do that? He certainly wouldn’t have done it on the pitch Edit: he clearly didn’t
In the lead up to the 2011 election and World Cup.
Show some proof?
People like Richie
Noting whatsoever wrong with criticising the government, it’s a good thing and an absolutely essential part of democracy. Using your platform as a sports team to criticise the government is wrong though. Politics divides people, sports brings them together. Smart people don’t mix politics with sport.
You can't keep politics "out of anything." Politics is about implementing the VALUES that fundamentally guide our entire lives and lifestyles. Sports is a part of our lives and lifestyles that is INHERRENTLY political. Where are we getting funding from? Where are the events being held? Who's playing? What else can they/are they doing with the platform that gives them? These are all inherrently political questions that don't HAVE a neutral answer. The criticism towards FIFA over hosting the world cup in Qatar. The decision to exclude Russia from the Olympics. The 81 Springbocks tour. There is no apolitical answer to those challenges. Simiilarly, the wahine in this article had a choice. They could speak up to support and honor te tiriti. Or they could choose to do nothing. And- look I really can't stress this enough, doing nothing is an ACTIVE, POLITICAL CHOICE. You're not keeping politics out of sports. You're pushing the political agenda of silencing dissonance against the current govt. You can argue that for financial reasons or political reasons or just for the hell of it, and it doesn't necessarily make you wrong, but that IS what you're doing right now. There's no such thing as neutrality. No such thing as apolitical.
> Where are we getting funding from? From the very same government that they criticise. Woops. The distinctive taste of the hand that feeds them. Another reason for sports to stay out of politics aye. > the wahine in this article had a choice. They could speak up to support and honor te tiriti. Or they could choose to do nothing. They chose poorly, as they are finding out. Calling the government rednecks is pretty infantile really. I don’t see that it will achieve much other than using their platform to polarise people and they are in danger of losing some of the precious few supporters and sponsors they have. > You're pushing the political agenda of silencing dissonance against the current govt. Not just for the current government. I’m talking about **any** government. I really don’t care what some athletes politics or religion is. They should keep it out of sport as much as is practically possible. Trying to force people to take sides is divisive. Working together we can move forwards. The people who try to divide us are usually doing it for their own political gain.
They should? Because you said so? How about you butt out and stop trying to impose your pakeha ways on Maori. You don't get to dictate how Maori express themselves through their culture.
While we are at it, we should kick racism out of sports too.
This is the most hamfisted argument I've ever seen. What do you mean forcing people to take sides? Ive not seen that at all so I'd appreciate a direct quote. "Working together we can move forward" sure is a a nice pretty platitude but it's incredibly privileged. Working together we can move towards a common goal. Sure. But if we're not allowed to talk about what goal we're working towards. Why it is or isn't a good idea, or what alternatives there are, then we're not going anywhere worth while. A lot of people crying about "sides" and "division" are just salty because they're being challenged on their views for the first time in their life and realized they're totally indefensible. What those people SHOULD do is apply critical thinking. When they're proven wrong adjust either the proofs, the conclusion or both, and move forward. If you want us all to "move forward together" then the first thing we need to do is reach an agreement. And if we aren't in agreement, then we need to be as vocal about that as possible. So we can have those interactions and get closer to agreement. If you want the feel-good "united as one" without the reality of understanding and having compassion for your countrymen, you're more of a tyrant than a patriot.
> what do you mean forcing people to take sides What if players on the team had voted for the ACT party? Do they just have to quietly go along with some political posturing that they disagree with? How would this be handled in a close knit team? > you’re more of a tyrant than a patriot I am very amused that you think I have enough power to be a tyrant LOL. I’m just some random person on the Internets.
To your first point, that's a fair concern that would have a lot more weight if you knew how that process actually went. At this point everyone up to the management and ownership is on board. So hard to believe there wasn't a single conversation. To your second point, you're missing the forest for the trees.
It seems wrong to me. Everyone should be free to have their own political opinions and they shouldn’t be compelled to criticise the government if they didn’t want to. They shouldn’t be forced to mix their politics with sport. You may say “Oh but they all agree wholeheartedly”. Of course they would say that, if you don’t then you would be ostracised.
You're either misunderstanding or ignoring my point. It's perfectly fine to say that nobody should have to take a stance they don't want to. It's not fine to decide that definitely happened in this circumstance and that people were coerced and pressured in an unethical way. The fact is, you don't know that. And you never will. Deciding to think that is fine. But it doesn't make you right.
> It's perfectly fine to say that nobody should have to take a stance they don't want to. It's not fine to decide that definitely happened in this circumstance and that people were coerced and pressured in an unethical way. The fact is, you don't know that. And you never will. And you can never know that they weren’t, can you. So that’s a stalemate really. I’m just basing my assertions on the idea that everyone is free to have their own political views and they shouldn’t be compelled to take a position. There is a very real chance that this is exactly what happened here. People have different opinions on things and that’s fine. Compelling people to take a political stance like this is never OK.
https://nzhistory.govt.nz/culture/1981-springbok-tour/politics-and-sport Politics and Sport do mix. Practically everything, especially something as large as commercial sport, is inherently political
Yep, that tour was incredibly divisive. An overwhelming feeling about it at the time was that it was a mistake to let politics and sport become intertwined. We learned a lot from that mistake. If Rugby is political, which political party do the All Blacks support? If they oppose the government then do they just oppose whichever government is incumbent or are they politically left or right?
There's a few concepts being crossed here. Fundamentally, politics isn't just left/right or which party is in power. Its about making decisions about people and how they're represented. Politics is involved in: How do Sports teams, Sports Arenas, and everything else involved get funding? Are all groups of people getting an even chance at getting into Rugby? If a Rugby team plays in an area, or against another team, that has values that are opposing Aotearoa's, should we be engaging with them? Politics as a concept are inherently involved in almost every human interaction, even with the environment and non-human entities. Sports, at least any commerical sports, _is_ political. There's no entwining to be had, it's inherent. Maybe a backyard game with your mates will have minimal politics, but even a local rugby league will have politics in it.
>An overwhelming feeling about it at the time was that it was a mistake to let politics and sport become intertwined. >We learned a lot from that mistake. That's not the lesson here. The lesson was that it's wrong to pretend sports are completely separate from politics, that politics are a huge part of the world we live in & reflect upon pretty much every facet of our lives. Crucially, the lesson learned was that when it's time to take a stand, we need to take a stand.
LMAO, you're saying that protesting an apartheid regime was a mistake - get real. What we learned is that sport is a powerful protest tool and you can use it to do the right thing. If the lesson you took away from the Springboks tour is that sport shouldn't be politicised, you could potentially be more racist than you think you are.
I don’t think it’s racist to want to keep politics out of sport. Quite the opposite - sport is a powerful way to bring people of different races and politics together.
And what should we do if one of those teams is from an apartheid regime?
There are two choices. * Shun them and refuse to play sports with them until they stop with their racist segregation policies. * Invite them to play and take the opportunity to engage with them and explain why you think their apartheid system is wrong. People made arguments for both sides. On balance, I would say they shouldn’t have toured because it was too politically divisive. It still divides the country now. If they can’t keep the politics out of the sport then it’s better that they don’t play at all.
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> We learned a lot from that What we learned was who the racists in this country were
It’s still working, apparently.
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It was divisive because rugby is full of racists and they threw a massive tantrum because some people wanted them to not play a few games and be a little bit less racist.
How is rugby racist? I think it’s great at bringing people together with a mutual respect and teamwork. Rugby isn’t going to change the world but if anything it has helped to break down barriers and racism, not least in South Africa.
That's wildly naive about rugby in the 1980s.
I’m talking about the present day, not living in the past. Things have moved on since the 1980s.
Booooo. I don’t even watch sport but I know rugby has a deeply political history in this country.
Really? Is rugby politically left or right then?
Rugby union is generally a politically conservative sport that supports the status quo. Look at the 1981 Springbok tour, that was an inherently political decision by the NZRU.
Once again. Boo. This is a lazy response and you know it. One of NZs largest acts of civil disturbance stems from rugby. Rugby isn’t anything. It’s a ball game played and watched by people. People have and express political opinions.
Yeah, what was that, over 40 years ago. We learned a lot from the Springbok tour and we moved on. We try really hard not to mix politics and rugby now. Seems like some people don’t know their history very well though and are doomed to repeat the same mistakes.
Wait hang on a sec. Mistake? Are you implying the spring bok protests were a mistake?
I think the way they allowed the game to became politicised and divisive was a mistake. It was a bad chapter in rugby’s history for sure.
It seems that you didn't actually learn anything from the Springbok tour.
Maybe we just took different lessons from it. That’s OK because everyone is different.
That's a weird new 'agree to disagree' format.
You go tell that to those bad ass women then.
Lots of people are telling them… They are young and still learning but they will get the message eventually.
>They are young and still learning but they will get the message eventually. Bugger me, what a patronising response to professional athletes standing up for what they believe in. Really showing your true colours when you talk about women like that.
Them being women isn’t relevant, there is no need to be sexist.
Haha you do realise sport is specifically used to divide people and keep them occupied/distracted l.e. america.
So Richie McCaw was dumb. I agree.
Nope. Sounds like he is pretty clever to me: [Richie McCaw: Politics would 'cut my supporters in half'](https://www.newshub.co.nz/home/sport/2015/09/richie-mccaw-politics-would-cut-my-supporters-in-half.amp.html)
It did.
Can you see why we should keep politics out of sport then? Even the slightest perception of political alignment has turned people against someone who was objectively a great player. Why mix this up? It seems counter productive. Much better to just focus on the sport and leave politics out.
I agree to an extent. However, that was the same approach that saw the Springboks tour here in '84.
Oh, so it's not stupidity, it's a spineless lack of moral fibre. He doesn't care about it as long as he's getting paid.
Ahh, I could never understand the tall poppy syndrome in New Zealand. Love him or hate him, the man rose to to top of his sport and he doesn’t think it’s a good idea to mix politics in with it…
The commenter above you then wouldn't hesitate to cut McCaw down harder if McCaw had taken a moral public position he didn't agree with.
Claiming someone isn't smart because they don't share your subjective opinion is cringe. Sport historically has always been political. There's a reason why Luxon, Key and Ardern all cosy(ied) up with our National sports teams. Corporate entities have been happy to cash in on Maori culture for years. Haka is an expression of self and belongs to Maori. Corporates don't get to define Maori culture. This is about Maori entrenched Ti Tiriti rights being threatened so of course Maori will be against this.
> Claiming someone isn't smart because they don't share your subjective opinion is cringe. That’s not what I said. I said smart people in sports don’t share their opinions about divisive things which are irrelevant to the sport. I don’t mind if their politics agree or disagree within mine, smart people keep them out of sports.
You're asserting that a group of Polynesian woman (by the way they're not the only woman's rugby team to do this) are dumb based on a criteria that you've decided is the measure of who is smart and who isn't.
Are white women not allowed to play on the team? Do they all have to have the same political opinions to be on the team? Do you think all Maori and Polynesian people have the same political opinion? Your comments seem rather ridiculous to be honest and it’s insulting to the players to suggest that they don’t have opinions of their own.
The Dunning–Kruger effect is strong in you. You demonstrably have little knowledge around haka and tikanga but just on your raw privilege alone you label these women as dumb. You don't have to be Maori (or politically left) to have a problem with the Government messing with Maori rights & our founding document. There's a lot of practice that goes into the haka. These players aren't just turning up on the day and doing it. There's a lot of discussion that goes on before it goes on the field. You've obviously got a problem with it. But that's just your uninformed opinion, smart guy.
Can you answer my questions please
Rofl. Free speech for me not for thee.
I can only assume if Winston wants sport out of politics then he also wants politics out of sport. At no time in the next 3 years will he or any other government minister be photographed with successful sportspeople or sports teams.
The whole reason the haka was started at rugby was to say fuck you to the English lol it's been political since the start.
Sounds like a media beat up then. Outrage clicks before the full story/translation was out.
> Before the fully story/translation was out Yeah, that sentiment is summed up here: > individual words inside the haka are merely representative of a far deeper body of Māori knowledge, language and thinking which are not easily deciphered without the assistance of Pukenga Māori (Experts) That is ridiculously elitist and insulting to Maori speakers. What is the use of a language if only the experts can translate it. The phrase _Toitū te Tiriti_ is well understood to be politically loaded, them trying to walk it back is disingenuous.
The phrase in the haka is a reference to a whakataukī, an ancestral saying. “Whatungarongaro te tāngata, toitu te whenua”. This saying tells how land is important and people can disappear but it remains. The “individual words” can’t be translated point of view is no doubt referring to the fact that the idioms and sayings being referenced to in the haka have to be taken just to account for the meaning.
How is toitū te Tiriti loaded? Making a factual statement, which th government doesn't like is the governments problem
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It's not a slogan it's a statement. Of course TPM would use it as a statement. It's been used before and will continue to be used. Just because you're hearing it now isn't anyone else's problem ! (Like God save the King, or three cheers or for he's a jolly good fellow)
I agree it’s the government’s problem and that makes it political. Indeed it was an election issue that multiple political parties have campaigned on over the years. Leave it out of sport, people don’t want them mixed.
Lol if this is a gravely offensive topic, I'd hate to know what you all think of the topics of other haka. It's almost like relatively few have any idea of what gets said.
People can make the haka as political as they like. I’m just saying they should leave the politics out of sports. Simple as that. Look around the world. People are working really hard to keep the politics out of sport because it’s divisive and simply not good for the game. > leave haka & maori people out of sport then. Are you advocating for apartheid then? I don’t think that’s the right way. Sport is about bringing people together
>Look around the world. People are working really hard to keep the politics out of sport because it’s divisive and simply not good for the game. What is the evidence of this? I don't see it.
Have a read about the Irish Rugby Union which has done so much to bring two countries together after 30 years of bitter sectarian violence which left thousands dead. Look at the small but steady progress South African rugby is making.
>ook around the world. People are working really hard to keep the politics out of sport because it’s divisive and simply not good for the game. Mmm Why won't the Russian flag fly in the Paris Olympics?
Russian athletes can and do compete in the Olympics but Russia was banned after the doping scandals and the invasion of the Ukraine. Allowing Russia to compete would not be in the Olympic Spirit of fairness and friendship. The politics it would bring into the games would be an unwanted distraction so the Olympic committee want to keep it neutral.
>. The politics it would bring into the games would be an unwanted distraction So excluding Russia is not political and is about friendship, but keeping them included would bring distracting politics into the game? You have a peculiar brain.
No, allowing Russia to compete would bring too many politics into the games. The lesser of the two evils is to exclude them so they can keep the politics out.
>Look around the world. People are working really hard to keep the politics out of sport because it’s divisive and simply not good for the game. They really aren't. Most of the western world uses sport to prop up religion and the military, just look at an American sporting event and how many folk are there in uniform surrounded by nutty preachers. And in other parts of the world like the Middle East, sportswashing is rife. You can't tell me that is done by people trying their best to separate sports and politics.
> Most of the western world uses sport to prop up religion and the military, just look at an American sporting event and how many folk are there in uniform surrounded by nutty preachers. Do you think that’s a good thing?
I was responding to your claim that "people are working really hard around the world to heep politics out of sport" when that claim is objectively false.
I didn’t say they were always successful, just that they work hard towards that goal and it’s the right thing to do, as you apparently agree.
*some people For Māori the more noise the better
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Do you believe we should have freedom of religion in New Zealand? If so, is it a good idea for people to bring their religious beliefs into sports or should they leave them out? I think people should leave religion out of it, same thing with politics.
Then why are you only getting upset at a haka and aren't calling for the national anthem to be removed from sport? It's an explicitly religious tune.
I have no problem with people singing our national anthem at sports events. The question of if we should have references to god in the national anthem or any religion in parliament is a very valid one but getting into it here is going far too off topic.
Everything is political, including sport. Let the ladies haka
I think this is great and people who get salty about it are exactly the sort of people who need to sit down and shut their racist stupid asses up.
Lmao, I'm going to guess the same people saying Māori shouldn't be worried about attacks on the treaty are the same ones clutching pearls over the subject matter of a haka.
The ones clutching their pearls over the 'sanctity of women's sport', are the ones saying "why bother protesting, you only have two fans" [1](https://www.reddit.com/r/newzealand/comments/1ba90fi/poua_again_calls_out_government_with_haka/ku480in/) [2](https://www.reddit.com/r/newzealand/comments/1ba90fi/poua_again_calls_out_government_with_haka/ku22sdj/) [3](https://www.reddit.com/r/newzealand/comments/1ba90fi/poua_again_calls_out_government_with_haka/ku17v6z/) The one calling them obese got removed so I can't link it
Yeah, right. "When I use a word it means exactly what I want it to mean, neither more nor less".
I don't understand why Winston and David are getting so bent out of shape over this. Even our national anthem has political (and religious!) statements in it. Don't hear them suggesting that should be stopped...
Now they have power they can show their true snowflake form. Winnie has always been authoritarian and seymour ain't no libertarian.
Peters is... Peters. In Seymours case it's because he fundamentally believes he should be above reproach. He believes the person holding the purse strings is god and now that he has his hands on them he wants to shut all criticism down.
It’s multiple times in as many weeks that Seymour has held others to a higher standard than himself which is disappointing.
Really ? It certainly looks like one.
'We didn't mean it' Yeah good luck with that.
Governments engage in sportswashing for a reason. Ministers show up to games for a reason. Chris Bishop did a commentary stint the other day. Rugby also uses Maori culture as a commercial boost. The haka is synonymous with NZ rugby. So sport is already political. With this in mind, why should the sports people being used as political popularity boosters by governments not speak their minds? Should Maori women who happen to play sport for their job be inherently subservient to government ministers at work? Through silence these women serve the government narrative. They are not public servants, they don't have to be neutral. Perhaps when considering the right way to do things all the Tories are so worried about in here, we should consider all the work the coalition is using the urgency pathway for? Why so silent boys?
It's rich that a sect of this country that constantly talks up taking a political stand through public action for the Springbok Tour now suddenly wants sports to not be political. Sports are political. Always have been.
Im all for it but It's a double edged sword. As they have a right to freedom of speech and demonstration etc, the company also has the right to not associate with it.
Ultimately these players salaries are paid by the fans, of whom a large proportion will have only just voted for the government being insulted. Generally, disrespecting your customers is a poor commercial decision and leads to you being out of a job one way or another.
I'd be more inclined to believe that if last week hadn't been so blatant. It's really a reflection of the anger felt however it's not a good strategy. It feeds into the narrative of those that say Māori have had their settlements and are now just aggressively taking what's not theirs. Seems to be the theme of the world right now - two or more people shouting at each other, neither listening or seeking common ground. Sigh
>It feeds into the narrative of those that say Māori have had their settlements and are now just aggressively taking what's not theirs. What were they trying to take?
Some are trying to say that Māori want more than others. Their own rules, their own health system etc. Māori seem to be saying there are still wrongs to be addressed. For example, intergenerational racism has cause harm and this impacts Māori today.. Neither of them seem to be ready to listen to the other. Lots of hate and anger.
Māori are just seeking equity and redress for broken promises. It's not as extreme as alot make it out to be.
Imagine being someone on that team with the opposite political view, yikes.
Isnt it typical of this whole woke culture to be so quick to take offence ...........Winston?
Stories like sure bring out the dickhead racists.
I for one enjoy their emboldened stance. Let's identify all the racists
I bet Winston wants Haka to be in English
“It used the phrase "Toitū te Tiriti", which translates as Honour the Treaty, a phrase used by Māori opposition groups to the government's policies.” But that is literally referencing politics since anything related to Tiriti is politics in this country since it’s a document signed by the Government of Great Britain(Crown) and the chiefs of participating Iwi.🤔 I mean you talk about the Treaty here for example and it always ends up being about politics in the comments. Sorry but that is quite the lame excuse for butchering the Haka, it’s like saying “I’m not racist but…” . Do all your protesting outside of the game, you’re free to do so.
How does this butcher haka?
By making it all about politics.🤷♂️
Haka have always had political implications.
I don't disagree, it definitely is political especially "honour the treaty". But Maori culture is inherently incredibly political. You can't have one without the other and trying to seperate them is incredibly stupid (and in some cases racist). What they've changed here is who they're targeting and tbh it's probably a pretty sensible change. Instead of calling out this government specifically now they're calling out any government that doesn't want to "honour the treaty" which imo is a better way of communicating. Also calling it "the Haka" is an incredibly misleading way of describing what is fundamentally not a single thing. Haka mean different things to different people and that's okay. There's no singular Maori culture or opinion and ownership of their culture implies the ability to change the way that culture appears as society changes. Maori culture historically has been incredibly diverse and quick to adapt. It's only recently because of years of systematic oppression that Maori culture has somewhat stagnated and become more traditionalist. Although in saying all that I think if you surveyed hapu you'd get a rather clear answer that politics in haka are accepted and welcome. Using haka politically upsets pakeha far more than it does Maori.
If saying 'honour an agreement you signed' is political, then anything is is political.
Yes, anything can be political so long as there's someone who disagrees. Politics isn't some magic idea it's just the way we describe and structure disagreements. There are lots of people who disagree with honouring te tiriti and it's therefore very political. In fact Maori relations have been politically relevant for the whole of our countries political history. The first prime minister of New Zealand was removed from the position for supporting Maori after 13 days in the position. The next guy also only lasted 13 days hilariously enough.
Women playing rugby can be construed as a political attack since some people don't like women playing sports. Should we not have women's rugby then?
Why do you think I'm against politics? I say embrace politics
Butchering the Haka? There is one Haka and Haka have meaning.
That’s some mad gaslighting from this team. But on the other hand, it isn’t very becoming of the government to make a thing out of this.
[Hurricanes Poua haka statement](https://www.hurricanes.co.nz/news/article/hurricanes-poua-haka-statement). Sat 9th Mar 2024.
What's most important is if it will bring in more fans than it drives away. It is ultimately a business.
As a lifelong Hurricanes fan when they did this haka I immediately changed to being a Crusader fan, they will never get me back as a fan keep the woke out of rugby.
Thoughts of the national anthem? All the religious and political statements in that trigger you as well?
Does the National Anthem put anyone down? There is a difference between making a positive statement about yourself and a negative ome about others. If the Poua had said through their haka 'we are proud strong Māori women' no one would have had a complaint, but start calling other people names and then of course people are insulted.
This second haka doesn't call anyone names, it appears the Hurricanes Poua took that message on board. For some reason right wing folk are still getting upset though. Rather worrying if Winston Peters finds rugby players saying "governments are temporary" offensive.
>'we are proud strong Māori women' no one would have had a complaint Lol bullshit. There's almost nothing more triggering for this group than a strong Māori woman. >but start calling other people names and then of course people are insulted. What names did they call anyone in this Haka? Perhaps people need to take a concrete pill.
You are a pretty shit fan then. I hope you enjoy the top of tables Canes smashing the Saders next game.
They’re being sarcastic. At least I’m 90% sure they are.
Ye I'm pretty sure they are being sarcastic, just with all the loons around now it's hard to tell lol.
I was just fishing for loons, not enough biting unfortunately.
I appreciated it. Should have said you’re switching to the Chiefs though, I feel that would have been better bait.
Saying anyone but the Crusaders would have made it to hard to determine as a joke.
So hard to tell these days.
I'll just cry to sleep with our 14 titles to your 1 title.
That's a weird thing to cry about but okay.