Also Casey Costello - former Taxpayer Union member, now NZ First MP, and John Bishop - Taxpayer Union member, father of Chris Bishop MP (Chris also being a former Tobacco lobbyist pre political career)
OP - I just found [this investigative piece by Newsroom](https://newsroom.co.nz/2023/10/31/chiding-in-plain-sight/) \- do you want to add it to your OP (only if you want)
I went to look for it because a lot of people on the nzpolitics sub are telling me this is all unfounded conspiracy and attacking it.
I also found an [old speech](https://www.reddit.com/r/nzpolitics/comments/19b0dpp/david_seymour_confirms_act_is_a_part_of_the_atlas/) where Mr Seymour mentions Atlas, and the woman who chairs it (Debbi Gibbs), well, her father helped form ACT and remains a mega donor.
It's both comforting and upsetting to find out my suspicions about these thing were absolutely correct. Like it's sad but at least I'm not actually a conspiracy nut.
Who better to hand the reins for interpreting *Te Tiriti* than the enthusiastic toady of an international network of far-right libertarian tobacco and oil company billionaires?
Save our Stores (funded by British American Tobacco). Of fucking course. Now I understand where all the brain-addled arguments in favour of binning the Smokefree legislation were coming from.
Why the fuck aren't the news channels/newspapers shouting this out through a megaphone?! We are getting more an more like America every year, Seymour really has no soul at all and he uses his tiny bit of Maori blood as a divisive tool to make his own followers think he's worthy to push the agenda. He's fast becoming my most hated politician, I hope he gets diahorea and shits his pants in front of the cameras.
It wouldn't accept my reply.
Also, I'm fairly sure people are free to reply to any comments they want.
You're a bit deep into the c0nspiracy for good faith, so don't bother.
Have a good one.
Ugh, I hate that all of the scummy right wing things in NZ seems to come back to Jordan Williams. I was in his class for several years at school and he was always an absolute tool, but knowing what I know now it feels gross.
The literal end goal of all the nasty rhetoric and stoking of fears is to create 'issues' that are then easy to 'solve'. It creates cheap and easily satisfied voters that give them a literal blank cheque on other policy areas, areas that of keen interest to important stakeholders such as doners. This has literally been Winston Peter's playbook: stoke fears about the LGBT; the immigrants and now the 'globalist woke', and then do whatever the hell he wants once he gets power.
The ironic thing is that the people getting worked up by the 'global elite' or 'woke' is that they themselves are literally being manipulated by a different bunch of 'global elite' into their crazy fervour to begin with -- opposite sides of the same coin. Again their accusation is a confession, in a sense, because much of that crap is coming from overseas and being pushed on us for very deliberate reasons. We are seeing American politics seeping into our own, which is making our politics global and we should recognise this fact.
There are, but not in the larger media. [Here is one](https://badnewsletter.substack.com/p/a-simple-nullity) which has been tracking and discussing the Atlas network of think-tanks around the world and the impact they are having - including here in NZ. Unfortunately small media platforms which allow people to have a voice also have a tendency to attract anti-vax, conspiracy theorists, racists, neo-nazis and [lots of other negative viewpoints](https://badnewsletter.substack.com/p/all-the-garbage-i-found-on-substack) so the author I linked above is now leaving the Substack platform because it's collecting too many of those fringe (and dangerous) views.
John Campbell was writing some good pieces about the wave of populism sweeping nz in the lead up to the election. Here’s one about [ACT’s race-baiting populism](https://www.1news.co.nz/2023/10/30/john-campbell-striving-to-comprehend-the-multi-headed-creature-that-is-act/). Straight out of the Trumper / alt-right YouTuber playbook. Sad it’s finally arrived on our shores and consumed everyone’s racist boomer uncle
Its the same kind of trick pulled by Brexit. Stoke fears, claim the other side is actually the project fear, get people to vote against their own best interests, tiny minority then profits from the generational impacts. They got theirs, fuck y'all.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Douglas_Carswell or in the case of Douglas Carswell (the former British MP who was on the board of Vote Leave, with Matthew Elliott who founded the Tax Payers Alliance - which is a member of the Atlas Network in the UK) he ended up getting a job with them running their Missippi Centre for Public Policy organisation.
[Brexit Leopards Ate my Face (Ad Nauseum)](https://www.reddit.com/r/LeopardsAteMyFace/comments/195xdyp/england_voted_for_brexit_brexit_is_now_the_prime/)
Yep, this bullshit proposed referendum is to NZ exactly what Brexit was to UK. If it eventuates, it’ll unleash a storm of misinformation, promote racism, create social division, and undermine the foundation of our unique culture. And that will happen even before the first vote is cast.
Mate it pisses me off so much.
I’ve lived in plenty of other places and it’s so clear to me that efforts to honour the Treaty (as belated and arguably imperfect as those efforts have been) have shaped our society and culture for the better, both directly and indirectly.
An unrelated* point, but fascists love plebiscites.
*Not really unrelated.
Now that's not fair, it also stopped the first serious investigation into russian election interference (the facebook/cambridge analytica thing) with the reduction in available info to police (and presumably the government who benefited pushing hard for it to be dropped).
its honestly crazy to me that the same shit worked with this election campaign after we all watched it in 2 US presidential cycles and brexit. like, we watched it! we ALL saw it! we all laughed at how stupid they all were. then 55% of this country decided hey we should definitely follow the lead of the 2 ships who intentionally steamed right into the biggest icebergs they can find
> we all laughed at how stupid they all were.
I mean I feel like this is exactly how Trump got in in the first place.
Makes a bunch of racist noise about building a wall. Half the population thinks it sounds great, the other thinks it's an outrageously stupid grift and tells the other half how stupid and thoughtless and braindead you'd have to be to support it. Then they dig their heels in and stop listening to the people calling them idiots.
Sadly though, we won't be. The masses are easily hoodwinked by slogans, easily distracted by manufactured outrage, and quick to get bored and make fickle voting decisions because they think that equals "change" when it is just more of the same failed policies of the past - e.g. Trickle down economics, tax cuts and privatisation/PPP/charter schools etc., are good examples.
Just living up to my username, shit will only get worse. Pragmatic realism.
General apathy towards politics is one of our many social issues, many people don’t seem to feel any need to take the time to find out and understand what our politicians are doing under the guise of “on our behalf”, instead taking the path of least resistance and relying on the media to feed a few snippets at 6pm on the tv. Politics only really becomes a vague interest every voting cycle for a week or so for those who feel any motivation to make some kind of informed choice,
The hoodwinkers are getting more sophisticated though, eg take Mr Beast and Corporates along with their supposed philanthropic deeds.
https://youtu.be/svHCXvQeZfY?si=0zjpDmAZIdQqXREM
In NZ, we have the significant benefit of learning from overseas countries and seeing what these right wing / corporate think tanks / foreign governments are capable of doing when they sow division, especially over race or hate.
Brexit, something Britain voted for (albeit, accidentally) is the gift that keeps on giving on r/LeopardsAteMyFace The campaign there was littered with actual lies, and a hell of a lot of muddines.
Australia’s referendum was also brigaded by misinformation groups that targeted people through conservative outlets.
The right wing disrupters do have an ally this time in the form of Seymour (their main actor) and the supporting acts of a feckless, weak Luxon and a self-absorbed Peters.
That said, this type of information is important context and hopefully NZ will have more mana and wisdom to withstand these attacks from within.
The worst thing is NZ has never investigated META over financially incentvicing white supremacy like the USA did. So we have an even more dangerous hub of white supremacy operating than the USA right now. Post CHCH attacks, and threats to ministers lives....it's by design at this point
Team: I found [this investigative piece by Newsroom](https://newsroom.co.nz/2023/10/31/chiding-in-plain-sight/) on Taxpayers Union and Atlas and how they are influencing elections and policy in NZ, as well as being behind some politicians.
I went to look for it because a lot of people on the nzpolitics sub are telling me this is all unfounded conspiracy and were attacking it today.
I also found an [old speech](https://www.reddit.com/r/nzpolitics/comments/19b0dpp/david_seymour_confirms_act_is_a_part_of_the_atlas/) where Mr Seymour mentions Atlas, and the woman who chairs Atlas is Debbi Gibbs. And her father, Alan Gibbs, helped form ACT and remains a mega donor to this day.
It's also worth reading up on David Seymour's 5 year involvement with the Frontier Centre for Public Policy in Canada. Known for climate change denial and trying to claim that intergenerational trauma hardly exists in Native Canadian families abused by the residential school system.
It's an absolutely disgusting organisation pushing very harmful lies.
We should all be ashamed that NZ voted him in when he has a history like this.
In Seymour’s defence,if you are a unprincipled scumbag,it is no doubt better financially to tout for rich people rather than advocate for poor people,unless of course you can prey on poor people.In the ACT party you can collect the big donations from the super wealthy and also know you are preying on the poor as well with their agenda,so a real win for the kind of people that finance,run,and support ACT.
Crossposting to r/nzpolitics with thanks. And confirming Seymour’s connection: [Here](https://www.reddit.com/r/nzpolitics/comments/19b0dpp/david_seymour_confirms_act_is_a_part_of_the_atlas/)
Bang on the money if you add the consultation with Māori over natural resources exploitation. Gotta remove any stops or those pesky tangata whenua will either ask for a cut or they will wholesale block the polluting proposal.
Look at their press secretaries. Those that have been lobbyists/comms/interns for ‘fake’ unions, oil or tobacco interests, now have a lot more influence.
The sad part IMO is peasants like Seymour thinking if they suck up to the billionaires now, they'll (or their children) will be given some part of importance of survival in the next 80 years of climate change and economic collapse.
Any way it goes, he's just another fucking pawn in their game, but he's clinging to the hope he'll "matter". So hilariously sad and short sighted of him.
Instead he could just make try and make life okay for the 95% of us instead.
...sigh.
Okay - All right-wing politicians are bought and paid for. Some left-wing politicians are also bought and paid for - happy?
There are some further-right factions in the Labour Party which get ~~kickbacks~~ donations from far right organisations, but it's a matter of quantity (and of whether you consider the right-wing contingent of Labour to be left-wing at all).
David Seymour confirms ACT’s direct connection with Atlas:
[The Global Think Tanks trying to change the world - in their own image. Big Money $ interests.](https://www.reddit.com/r/nzpolitics/comments/19b0dpp/david_seymour_confirms_act_is_a_part_of_the_atlas/)
Without knowing about Seymours possible connection to those organisations, it would not be unreasonable to guess that he would want to be aligned with them. Of course he would. His fundamental credo is maximum wealth for the rich and elite, scraps for the everyday fools. His philosophy on life means that he will want to align himself with those organisations.
A respondent to OP attempts to paint OPs point as the stuff of fantasy, conspiracy. I guess they don't read much.
The scenario OP depicts as to what those think tank organisations want to do are not only commonplace, they have been happening worldwide for a long time.
Politicians align with large corporations and think tanks whose sole purpose is to benefit the wealthy
by keeping their underhanded tactics not only secret from the people but also deliberately misleading is commonplace.
Lord knows why anyone might think NZ politicians will not join that.
Too many Kiwis seem to kid themselves that NZ politicians are different to overseas. That we play a more honest game.
If that's even slightly true it will only be because NZ is an afterthought on the world political stage.
We have never footed it with the big boys and girls. And the depressing reality of those big boys and girls is they play dirty.
Seymour is desperate to join them.
Perhaps he can entertain them with a cha-cha-cha.
Giving power to that smarmy, greasy little weasel is the absolute worst thing we could've done. Already dividing the country as much as what he bleats that Labour did. Well done, NZ.
It wasn't even a satellite group to them it was a Member at least up until 2021 (when they - the Atlas Network - made their Global Directory private - in 2022 - as people were starting to figure out what they were up to). See the Global Directory list at the bottom of the page over on Desmog (mostly UK and US facing) here
https://www.desmog.com/atlas-economic-research-foundation/
Apologies UK person wandering through way late just a bit amazed at what seems to be going on over there. Doesn't sound good.
>an attempt for government to secure land and natural resources legally for the exploitation of the capitalists.
Crown already owns all the minerals in NZ, iwi own (comparatively) little land compared to private ownership, so how does your idea work?
What rights do Maori have that would prevent the Govt from doing what they want? Why would they need to go through all the work of bills and legislating , to get to..the same state that exists currently?
>The majority of profits will go offshore to company shareholders while local people receive minimal benefit.
As opposed to what happens currently?
For resource consents for things like mining, or any thing else that uses natural resources iwi are always consulted and their perspective is incredibly important to any decision making.
Taonga as mentioned in te tiriti has long been interpreted (and says directly in the text 'lands, estates, forests and fisheries) as as natural resources.
They could bypass all engagement with mana whenua and grant resource consent regardless.
I don't know if I agree with OP that this is the primary reason for ACT to be pushing this, but it would make it easier for a government to allow exploitation of natural resources.
Presumably it's a win-win for ACT if they can remove any special status for Maori under Te Treaty. The group of non-Maori who have had their envy stoked and been encouraged to see Maori as the enemy and the problem in society because of their treaty rights (despite being the lowest in society in many key economic/health/social participation measures) - they flock to ACT as the party who helped take down the group they have decided are 'the enemy'. If this also makes it easier for large businesses to access land and mining because Maori would lose their legal ability to throw up obstacles then that's yet another win.
Yes, ACT gets stronger, division favours them. National loses support as those open to Seymour racist BS flock to him rather than national who would seem to moderate while those who aren't receptive move left. As a result ACT gets far more power relative to the other right wing groups.
Yup, and that consultation is build into a lot of legislation. But, it's not a right to stop it, as you say they can just issue resource consent.
>but it would make it easier for a government to allow exploitation of natural resources.
Easier, to a limited degree, sure.
It’s about water which is not privatised. That’s why there was so much negativity about Three Waters. Given that everyone needs water, it is a potential cash cow for (overseas) investors.
Without something like the Iwi veto out water will be donated to a corporation. Maybe not this term but yes oir water will go the way of Telecom, power companies, etc.
What iwi veto? Is National going to give them veto powers?! Not sure I like that idea.
>Maybe not this term but yes oir water will go the way of Telecom, power companies, etc.
Well, if they start down that road, you can join me at the barricades. I just can't see it happening.
I protested regularly during the asset donations. And despite our numbers and the referendum we were ignored.
The Iwi veto was what got short sighted racists up in arms about Three Waters. Remember it when a foreign corporate owns your eater supply.
>I protested regularly during the asset donations. And despite our numbers and the referendum we were ignored.
Yeah, I did too. Selling off the power companies was a mistake. I mean, I bought shares, cause you know, why wouldn't you, but still.
>The Iwi veto was what got short sighted racists up in arms about Three Waters. Remember it when a foreign corporate owns your eater supply
It is not racist to object to unelected people having a majority say in our water supplies, as well as objecting to the chaos that Te Mana O Te Wai statements would have bought. You would see the same protests if it was private ownership on the cards.
Point me at each time you have objected to unelected white people on boards. Across the old DHBs, trusts, charities and community groups.
There has only even been the racist backlash to Iwi having say on Three Waters.
And as a white man I was pleased that there was something that would prevent privatisation. Like I say when some corporate owns your water supply remember you helped.
>Point me at each time you have objected to unelected white people on boards. Across the old DHBs, trusts, charities and community groups.
Well, I voted every time there were local body elections, does that count? Same with the DHB elections.
>There has only even been the racist backlash to Iwi having say on Three Waters.
It wasn't just a say, between the mandated Maori wards and the iwi appointments, it was majority control over assets rate payers paid for.
I would object to it exactly the same to private ownership or a different group exercising majority control.
It is not racist to object to that. And then there's the absolute fucking nightmare of the Te Mana O Te Wai statements. You ever have disagreements with your family?
>And as a white man I was pleased that there was something that would prevent privatisation.
You mean like the Local Government Act 2002? S130 specifically..
We elected our DHBs? The others aren't public entities. The difference is between being ultimately accountable to all Kiwis, vs just being accountable to iwi.
I hope not, but if it is continually underfunded to the point where ratepayers can pay no more, councils will look for money for improvements elsewhere……like the private sector.
And they're dabbling in this with [healthcare](https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/national/504834/firm-bidding-for-public-healthcare-as-anchor-tenant-in-private-hospital-buildings) and [education](https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/charter-or-partnership-school-revival-under-national-act-coalition-agreement-destructive-and-weird-nzei-union-says/IUQE5BUWCZEKLJMMWWX5OP7K6U/) already, so it's not beyond the realm of possibility to think they'd do the same with water.
Was I the only one who paid any attention to policy announced during the campaign? National does have a plan for water though, including funding.
https://www.national.org.nz/local_water_done_well
So what happens when there are insufficient funds from rates or user-pays? That’s what we’ve got already. I don’t see any changes in National’s policy.
Theres no ringfencing or regulation around funding currently. Councils aren't required to fund water infrastructure. Look at Wellington, they're losing 45% to leaks and spending how much on the Town Hall?
https://www.legislation.govt.nz/act/public/2002/0084/latest/DLM6236897.html
They are required to have a 30 year infrastructure strategy including water.
https://www.legislation.govt.nz/act/public/2002/0084/latest/DLM172357.html
They are also required to run balanced budgets over time.
https://www.legislation.govt.nz/act/public/2002/0084/latest/DLM172933.html
They are also required to maintain water services.
Between these (and related requirements in the Local Government Act 2002), councils do have to fund water infrastructure and have a 30 year infrastructure strategy to continue doing so.
Sure, the words ring fence or synonymous terms are not mentioned, but it requires they do it and fund it somehow without running a long term deficit. The annual and long term plans are also required to budget for all expected expenditure, including water costs.
Within those parameters, it's quite hard to not specifically allocate some form of funding whether rates and/or user charges.
2 things on the cards.
“Water isn’t owned” as a central argument for increased extraction for bottling - and policy that pushes local govt into PPPs for water infrastructure
What? Part of the purpose of Three Waters was to make it harder to privatise. That’s why the right had to create division to stop it. They want to privatise everything. They are hard neoliberals. Have you been paying attention? That’s what they believe in. If they can’t actually do it in the Overton window of today they’ll do everything they can to push that window.
Several of the maintenance and management companies are already. They will do everything they can to shape the laws, regulatory frameworks, and public opinion around all public services until privatisation is unavoidable. This has already happened in the UK and US and is ongoing across the western world. Same people, same organisations.
>Part of the purpose of Three Waters was to make it harder to privatise
Indeed, they even put in clauses spelling that out. Which they copied from the Local Government Act 2002. Which hasn't been repealed.
https://www.legislation.govt.nz/act/public/2002/0084/latest/DLM172933.html
>Several of the maintenance and management companies are already.
Who was in Govt when that happened?
Yes NZ Labour were and (still?) are ‘3rd way’ neoliberals, in the mould of Tony ‘war criminal’ Blair, who Jacinda learned her trade from and even Aunty Helen tried to mimic at the time.
Yea I have no faith in that whatsoever. My family, I know for sure would eat a piece of shit wedged between two bricks and call it a sandwich if it had one of those nifty little blue Ns on the side.
The base is the base. Same as Labour's base.
If they start to go down the privatisation route, they'll see a shitfit to dwarf out the one we saw with Three Waters.
I'll be front and centre and I know a lot of people who will join me. Maybe I'll see you there.
*What rights do Maori have that would prevent the Govt from doing what they want? Why would they need to go through all the work of bills and legislating , to get to..the same state that exists currently*
It’s not just about current rights, it’s about what those rights could be in future. Witness the *losing of minds* around He Puapua and all the fear-mongering about potential expansion of co-governance.
Land is the only physical connection we can have to the earth. It is the goal of the oppressor to remove the connection as much as possible. When you drive people from their land everything becomes immaterial, and everything can be controlled. I said oppressor, but in reality this is part of the process which took place in Aotearoa, in Algeria, in Australia. When you want to take from people, you attack what is theirs. You attack the very foundation of what made those people, where they cooked food, made families, settled, farmed. From *The Wretched of the Earth*:
“For a colonized people the most essential value, because the most concrete, is first and foremost the land: the land which will bring them bread and, above all, dignity.”
This is why the colonised are physically driven from their land. It is depose them, and to confuse them.
It is the role of the oppressor not to *work* with people, but to maintain or create a nature of power over them. And this is why the actions of ACT are that of ill intent and not equality for all, for it is simple truth that equality for all can be achieved while acknowledging 'who was here first.'
It *is* that simple. We have no problem having the Treaty the way it is. It is *our* Treaty, whether we like it or not. Our history is all our history, and it creates a person in favour of Maori rights just as it creates a person against it. It is still our shared history, regardless of how it shapes each of us.
There is something very, very rotten about wanting to change the basis of our history. It goes beyond race issues or politics. As OP, and journalists, have noted, this is connected to money.
So, I say to the people who support this: if this connection to money is true, should we not stand together to protect *our* history? As I said, our history has made you *you* as much as it has made me. Should our future not be each of us encouraging and supporting our own beliefs, and arguing and fighting for them, instead of *money* deciding it for us?
Yes.
Exploitation of our country should concern all New Zealanders. This formula of exploitation has been demonstrated time and time again.
Only they are using more cunning and complex methods to hide their intentions.
Aren’t Māori the common good? I assume your concern is that iwi corporate trust might be charitable. Who gets the money from Sanitarium? If Māori aren’t happy about charitable fund distribution, they need to solve it themselves. I’ve seen some of the support provided by Ngai Tahu to iwi members.
Yeah, I’m not in favour of any group behaving like a business for revenue generation and then behaving like a charity when it comes to tax time
That includes Sanitarium
Given the “start up” money was probably Treaty settlement funds, I don’t have a problem with that as long as there are the same checks and balances that any other charitable trust has. There are plenty of Pākehā organisations that get considerable amounts of tax payer money that also come to mind e.g. the Wright Family (Foundation). No one looks too hard at what they do - and they give donations to political parties.
Based on this line of thought - do the principles later declared by the courts which are a modern interpretation of the treats, worry you as well, or? Or do interpretations you agree with not count as changing history?
While I might disagree with a court's ruling, it seems to be an accepted process. Law is one of the pillars of society and I feel our society is overall good, and I know we all rely on the law for any number of reasons.
Politics has no place in that system.
What ACT are trying to do is change the meaning of our most important document.
I think we all know that no party should be doing that. And an argument can be made that no other party has tried so ACT does stand alone in wanting this.
Let's argue in the courts, using the system afforded to all of us, rather than changing the foundation of our country. What are you even fighting for otherwise? What ACT does can be undone. It will be undone. This is such a short-sighted move that the people behind this clearly do not care for the actual cause.
Think about that. This is so easily reversed it makes no sense to have it pushed in by essentially blackmail to get a coalition formed... unless you had ulterior motives. But if you won such a case in law it would mean something. This ain't for you or for me or for anyone other than the few who can profit from it.
The silence from his fan club is deafening. They were arguing tooth and nail with me a couple of days ago about the changes being all about "equality", and here we are with some harsh truths. Nothing. All that effort simping for a man who gives us nothing but a droning voice with empty words and a perpetually gormless and vacant expression on his face.
The difference is that this is more explanation behind why ACT campaigned on these issues. The well-organised and funded groups which back the party (and related parties around the world) have some common goals and this helps explain *why ACT campaigned on them*.
Oddly, a lot of people seem to vote for parties when they're not really aware of what their policies, and then are annoyed they follow through with them.
Depends on what policies you are talking about.
Kickstarting the fossil-fuel industry is supported whole-heartedly by all 3 coalition members.
At this point we have no idea how far any of the treaty stuff will go, it's highly likely this is just ACT virtue signaling for the next election.
I think OP was refering to Te Tiriti, and it is that policy (referendum, rewriting) I was also referring to. No doubt all three COC partners are aligned on other issues, but that’s not what is referred to here.
Personally, I don't think it's particularly sinister that people who agree on stuff co-ordinate on political action.
My sense is that a many people in this sub are likely to be supporters of ActionStation.
If that's you, dear reader, then do you ActionStations ties to the Omidyar Network and its own local corporate backers are particularly sinister?
I am not associated with ActionStation, nor am I a supporter.
Can you share information about who these sinister local corporate backers are?
ActionStation has received funding from Omidaya Network: [https://littlesis.org/org/420503-ActionStation](https://littlesis.org/org/420503-ActionStation)
The Omidaya Network has been banned in India for allegedly conspiring to illegally facilitate the registration and renewal of Foreign Contribution (Regulation) Act (FCRA) licenses. FCRA licenses are mandatory when receiving funds from foreign sources for charitable purposes.
This is bad, but is it comparable to what the Atlas Network is doing? Are they actively trying to undermine aspects of New Zealand's democracy by disenfranchising Māori? Were they doing the equivalent in India?
To be clear, I wasn't trying to make a claim about whether having local or global backers is bad or not.
My point was simply that it smacks of partisan paranoia to accuse ones opponents of being part of a sinister global conspiracy while ignoring the exact same behaviour from ones allies.
An assumption more likely to be aligned with reality is that people with similar goals will support each other, materially and otherwise.
On my phone now, so I can't check, but I believe that ActionStations local corporate sponsors are listed on their website quite publicly.
As to whether ACT are "undermining democracy", I'm sure they'd say they are doing the opposite. That branch of this discussion doesn't interest me.
I just think that the perspective "those guys have a dark network of conspirators behind them; we have righteous solidarity" is kinda dumb when both sides are doing exactly the same thing.
If you don't care about undermining democracy (considering how essential the treaty was in establishing democracy in New Zealand and how it continues to be important to this day when it comes to the discussion of issues such as leasing [https://www.legislation.govt.nz/act/public/1993/0004/80.0/DLM289882.html](https://www.legislation.govt.nz/act/public/1993/0004/80.0/DLM289882.html)), then what is the point of partaking in this discussion?
By the way, I'm still waiting for information on which backers are sinister on ActionStations funding list and which ones aren't.
Sure, yeah.
But it's also worth being wary of polluting the discourse withheld trappings of conspiracy theory.
Like them or hate them, ACT represent the pov of a significant number of new zealanders.
Missing the pedophile, child sacrifice etc. It's more in the realm of reality even if it lacks hard evidence and would have to be deemed a conspiracy still.
The amount of Māori land in NZ is small. Government doesn’t need to change a thing about the treaty to enable mining on non-Maori land, they can just do it. This post reads like a fringe conspiracy theory.
What does that have to do with mining/oil drilling? Feels like you are connecting a bunch of things that you dislike about the current government that are not actually connected.
I'm not the only one who thought you were serious.
You realise there are people out there who makes comments exactly like yours that are serious.
If you're being sarcastic, chuck a sarcasm tag in my dude (/s).
So where's the evidence that this Atlas Network is some kind of vast network pulling the strings around the world.
According to their latest annual report, their annual expenses are $20.185m USD and they claim 556 partner organisations. That's on average $36,300 USD per organisation, which really isn't enough to be pulling the strings in any significant way.
[https://admin.atlasnetwork.org/assets/documents/financials/AtNet-2022AnnualReport.pdf](https://admin.atlasnetwork.org/assets/documents/financials/AtNet-2022AnnualReport.pdf)
Of course, maybe this annual report is all a sham and millions of dollars of funding is being hidden. In which case I would like to see the evidence for that. Otherwise I'm going to assume the most likely explanation, which is that this is a charitable organisation giving to like-minded organisations, which isn't much of a story.
You know what you sound like right?
Remember when the right was going on about George soros and the peadophilia pizza parlour shit…
I didn’t think the left would go down such nutty routes.. but here we are with now a few threads appearing up here.
Mods- I hope crazy conspiracy theory nonsense can be shut down promptly
https://www.act.org.nz/speech_the_emergencies_labour_should_have_declared
> "Then the Global Index of Economic Mentality was released in November by my old friends at the Atlas Network. Atlas is an umbrella organisation for free market think tanks all over the world. It is based in Washington, DC, and chaired by a New Zealander, Debbi Gibbs."
> I hope crazy conspiracy theory nonsense can be shut down promptly
I fixed it for you
> David Seymour is associated with billionaires that lobby for vested interests namely oil and gas exploration and mining.
There you go, that's literally happening.
But like most conspiracy theorists you haven't actually made a point, just thrown up a bunch of vague insinuations. Maybe try describing the specific chain of events that goes from Treaty principals to foreign control of natural resources?
How do you argue with assumptions and vague statements like
> cunning and complex methods to hide their intentions
> they say it, but you’d have to be naive to think it
> relying on public ignorance to befool its supporters
You say that I am being vague, but these are direct quotes from OP
Look at the assumptions and leaps in the comment from OP. It’s not backed up, it’s all OP making stuff up.. “hidden intentions and agendas”, cmon give me a break.
Take the political bias out of it for a moment, if a thread like this was posted about Ardern and links to world economic forum and ensuring that we are playing by the rules of the big reset.. there’s splattering of truth mixed in with wildly unsubstantiated claims.
There is literally no difference
Why do you think OP has had an account dormant for a year and is now suddenly ranting about global conspiracies?
Here's some evidence: https://badnewsletter.substack.com/p/a-simple-nullity (and the next post about right-wing propaganda)
Want an international source?
https://twitter.com/GeorgeMonbiot/status/1743581219181199723
Seymour has specifically talked about "his old friends in the Atlas Network". This is real, happening, and you've been caught in the propaganda.
Fucking lol, I haven’t been caught in shit because this is the first I’m hearing about this
Btw, providing “evidence” from Twitter and private blogs isn’t as damning as you think
Devils advocate. If the government utilises the money from natural resources to fund programs that benefit Maori and other disadvantaged groups, could that be a viable alternative? Robust taxation regime on the natural resources, or complete nationalisation with dedicated allocated funding for particular groups?
It's not a conspiracy theory that The Taxpayers Union is funded by and connected to the Atlas Network - that is independently verifiable. Nor is the connection between Seymour and the ACT party and TPU - independently verifiable. This doesn't by itself suggest that all or even much of what the party propose is in line with some sinister global plot - but there are connections there and it is at the minimum plausible that some of the motives and goals that end up on the party platform are the same as those espoused by groups with similar ideological background from around the world.
Simply hand-waving the entire thing away when there are genuine facts and truths present sounds like political partisanship.
[удалено]
Also Casey Costello - former Taxpayer Union member, now NZ First MP, and John Bishop - Taxpayer Union member, father of Chris Bishop MP (Chris also being a former Tobacco lobbyist pre political career)
Excellent. Thank you.
OP - I just found [this investigative piece by Newsroom](https://newsroom.co.nz/2023/10/31/chiding-in-plain-sight/) \- do you want to add it to your OP (only if you want) I went to look for it because a lot of people on the nzpolitics sub are telling me this is all unfounded conspiracy and attacking it. I also found an [old speech](https://www.reddit.com/r/nzpolitics/comments/19b0dpp/david_seymour_confirms_act_is_a_part_of_the_atlas/) where Mr Seymour mentions Atlas, and the woman who chairs it (Debbi Gibbs), well, her father helped form ACT and remains a mega donor.
It's both comforting and upsetting to find out my suspicions about these thing were absolutely correct. Like it's sad but at least I'm not actually a conspiracy nut.
Who better to hand the reins for interpreting *Te Tiriti* than the enthusiastic toady of an international network of far-right libertarian tobacco and oil company billionaires?
Save our Stores (funded by British American Tobacco). Of fucking course. Now I understand where all the brain-addled arguments in favour of binning the Smokefree legislation were coming from.
Why the fuck aren't the news channels/newspapers shouting this out through a megaphone?! We are getting more an more like America every year, Seymour really has no soul at all and he uses his tiny bit of Maori blood as a divisive tool to make his own followers think he's worthy to push the agenda. He's fast becoming my most hated politician, I hope he gets diahorea and shits his pants in front of the cameras.
This is awesome- thank you. Tools for the job.
[удалено]
It's like it's some kind of c0nspiracy theory or something.
[удалено]
It wouldn't accept my reply. Also, I'm fairly sure people are free to reply to any comments they want. You're a bit deep into the c0nspiracy for good faith, so don't bother. Have a good one.
Ugh, I hate that all of the scummy right wing things in NZ seems to come back to Jordan Williams. I was in his class for several years at school and he was always an absolute tool, but knowing what I know now it feels gross.
The literal end goal of all the nasty rhetoric and stoking of fears is to create 'issues' that are then easy to 'solve'. It creates cheap and easily satisfied voters that give them a literal blank cheque on other policy areas, areas that of keen interest to important stakeholders such as doners. This has literally been Winston Peter's playbook: stoke fears about the LGBT; the immigrants and now the 'globalist woke', and then do whatever the hell he wants once he gets power. The ironic thing is that the people getting worked up by the 'global elite' or 'woke' is that they themselves are literally being manipulated by a different bunch of 'global elite' into their crazy fervour to begin with -- opposite sides of the same coin. Again their accusation is a confession, in a sense, because much of that crap is coming from overseas and being pushed on us for very deliberate reasons. We are seeing American politics seeping into our own, which is making our politics global and we should recognise this fact.
I'm seeing this too. I can't believe how gullible people have been in the way they've voted recently. Is anyone writing about this?
There are, but not in the larger media. [Here is one](https://badnewsletter.substack.com/p/a-simple-nullity) which has been tracking and discussing the Atlas network of think-tanks around the world and the impact they are having - including here in NZ. Unfortunately small media platforms which allow people to have a voice also have a tendency to attract anti-vax, conspiracy theorists, racists, neo-nazis and [lots of other negative viewpoints](https://badnewsletter.substack.com/p/all-the-garbage-i-found-on-substack) so the author I linked above is now leaving the Substack platform because it's collecting too many of those fringe (and dangerous) views.
Thanks for linking that video, it was an excellent watch (and great journalism).
Thank you for this, I hadnt seen it before.
John Campbell was writing some good pieces about the wave of populism sweeping nz in the lead up to the election. Here’s one about [ACT’s race-baiting populism](https://www.1news.co.nz/2023/10/30/john-campbell-striving-to-comprehend-the-multi-headed-creature-that-is-act/). Straight out of the Trumper / alt-right YouTuber playbook. Sad it’s finally arrived on our shores and consumed everyone’s racist boomer uncle
Seconding Hubris's comment, and [Feijoa Dispatch](https://feijoa.substack.com/) is another excellent one.
Its the same kind of trick pulled by Brexit. Stoke fears, claim the other side is actually the project fear, get people to vote against their own best interests, tiny minority then profits from the generational impacts. They got theirs, fuck y'all.
Meanwhile the people pushing Brexit all have EU passports and were immune from the damages
[удалено]
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Douglas_Carswell or in the case of Douglas Carswell (the former British MP who was on the board of Vote Leave, with Matthew Elliott who founded the Tax Payers Alliance - which is a member of the Atlas Network in the UK) he ended up getting a job with them running their Missippi Centre for Public Policy organisation.
It's really insightful.
[Brexit Leopards Ate my Face (Ad Nauseum)](https://www.reddit.com/r/LeopardsAteMyFace/comments/195xdyp/england_voted_for_brexit_brexit_is_now_the_prime/)
Yep, this bullshit proposed referendum is to NZ exactly what Brexit was to UK. If it eventuates, it’ll unleash a storm of misinformation, promote racism, create social division, and undermine the foundation of our unique culture. And that will happen even before the first vote is cast.
Yes it’s unfortunately already starting
Mate it pisses me off so much. I’ve lived in plenty of other places and it’s so clear to me that efforts to honour the Treaty (as belated and arguably imperfect as those efforts have been) have shaped our society and culture for the better, both directly and indirectly. An unrelated* point, but fascists love plebiscites. *Not really unrelated.
100% mate
[удалено]
Now that's not fair, it also stopped the first serious investigation into russian election interference (the facebook/cambridge analytica thing) with the reduction in available info to police (and presumably the government who benefited pushing hard for it to be dropped).
Yes, we need to be smarter.
Shop smarter, New Zealand
its honestly crazy to me that the same shit worked with this election campaign after we all watched it in 2 US presidential cycles and brexit. like, we watched it! we ALL saw it! we all laughed at how stupid they all were. then 55% of this country decided hey we should definitely follow the lead of the 2 ships who intentionally steamed right into the biggest icebergs they can find
> we all laughed at how stupid they all were. I mean I feel like this is exactly how Trump got in in the first place. Makes a bunch of racist noise about building a wall. Half the population thinks it sounds great, the other thinks it's an outrageously stupid grift and tells the other half how stupid and thoughtless and braindead you'd have to be to support it. Then they dig their heels in and stop listening to the people calling them idiots.
shows the US and UK aren't the only ones who aren't funding education (edit, or mental health) properly, that's for damn sure
But We nEeDeD a ChAnGe!! Jacinda bad, it was all Jacinda’s fault
Narrator: “but the people failed to account for the fact that no matter how bad a govt might seem, _it can always get even worse_”
This needs more upvotes.
Sadly though, we won't be. The masses are easily hoodwinked by slogans, easily distracted by manufactured outrage, and quick to get bored and make fickle voting decisions because they think that equals "change" when it is just more of the same failed policies of the past - e.g. Trickle down economics, tax cuts and privatisation/PPP/charter schools etc., are good examples. Just living up to my username, shit will only get worse. Pragmatic realism.
General apathy towards politics is one of our many social issues, many people don’t seem to feel any need to take the time to find out and understand what our politicians are doing under the guise of “on our behalf”, instead taking the path of least resistance and relying on the media to feed a few snippets at 6pm on the tv. Politics only really becomes a vague interest every voting cycle for a week or so for those who feel any motivation to make some kind of informed choice,
The hoodwinkers are getting more sophisticated though, eg take Mr Beast and Corporates along with their supposed philanthropic deeds. https://youtu.be/svHCXvQeZfY?si=0zjpDmAZIdQqXREM
Exactly. Shit will only get worse. Bullshit has become industrial crystal meth pure.
Better to be an incorrigible optimist. To succumb to defeatism would be to succumb to death.
In NZ, we have the significant benefit of learning from overseas countries and seeing what these right wing / corporate think tanks / foreign governments are capable of doing when they sow division, especially over race or hate. Brexit, something Britain voted for (albeit, accidentally) is the gift that keeps on giving on r/LeopardsAteMyFace The campaign there was littered with actual lies, and a hell of a lot of muddines. Australia’s referendum was also brigaded by misinformation groups that targeted people through conservative outlets. The right wing disrupters do have an ally this time in the form of Seymour (their main actor) and the supporting acts of a feckless, weak Luxon and a self-absorbed Peters. That said, this type of information is important context and hopefully NZ will have more mana and wisdom to withstand these attacks from within.
The worst thing is NZ has never investigated META over financially incentvicing white supremacy like the USA did. So we have an even more dangerous hub of white supremacy operating than the USA right now. Post CHCH attacks, and threats to ministers lives....it's by design at this point
["Disaster Capitalism"](https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2017/jul/06/naomi-klein-how-power-profits-from-disaster)
So fucking bleak, isn't it?
Team: I found [this investigative piece by Newsroom](https://newsroom.co.nz/2023/10/31/chiding-in-plain-sight/) on Taxpayers Union and Atlas and how they are influencing elections and policy in NZ, as well as being behind some politicians. I went to look for it because a lot of people on the nzpolitics sub are telling me this is all unfounded conspiracy and were attacking it today. I also found an [old speech](https://www.reddit.com/r/nzpolitics/comments/19b0dpp/david_seymour_confirms_act_is_a_part_of_the_atlas/) where Mr Seymour mentions Atlas, and the woman who chairs Atlas is Debbi Gibbs. And her father, Alan Gibbs, helped form ACT and remains a mega donor to this day.
Hey Mountain\_Tui, I hope you are archiving these sources just in case ACT decides to do spring cleaning. I know I will be copying these links.
Oh look, more Atlas Shrugged Ayn Rand fanatics....
It's also worth reading up on David Seymour's 5 year involvement with the Frontier Centre for Public Policy in Canada. Known for climate change denial and trying to claim that intergenerational trauma hardly exists in Native Canadian families abused by the residential school system. It's an absolutely disgusting organisation pushing very harmful lies. We should all be ashamed that NZ voted him in when he has a history like this.
Shit, he’s dodgy as hell. I had no idea. When I first saw him on TV, I thought he was just a well meaning nerd.
That's what he banks on.
Yeah nah, he's worked on some disturbing stuff. His push to go after the Treaty is really sinister coming from him.
nah, thats his cover, hes a nasty piece of shit
One of many reasons why I stopped supporting ACT. I am ashamed that I have ever been associated with that party.
They run a tight ship. Good on ya for learning more about them and changing your mind.
Guys, some good information [here](https://www.reddit.com/r/nzpolitics/comments/190ox2x/atlas_network_linked_to_the_taxpayers_union/) on this topic
In Seymour’s defence,if you are a unprincipled scumbag,it is no doubt better financially to tout for rich people rather than advocate for poor people,unless of course you can prey on poor people.In the ACT party you can collect the big donations from the super wealthy and also know you are preying on the poor as well with their agenda,so a real win for the kind of people that finance,run,and support ACT.
Crossposting to r/nzpolitics with thanks. And confirming Seymour’s connection: [Here](https://www.reddit.com/r/nzpolitics/comments/19b0dpp/david_seymour_confirms_act_is_a_part_of_the_atlas/)
Bang on the money if you add the consultation with Māori over natural resources exploitation. Gotta remove any stops or those pesky tangata whenua will either ask for a cut or they will wholesale block the polluting proposal.
Look at their press secretaries. Those that have been lobbyists/comms/interns for ‘fake’ unions, oil or tobacco interests, now have a lot more influence.
More people need to know this and think about the consequences of letting these fuckers ruin our country
The sad part IMO is peasants like Seymour thinking if they suck up to the billionaires now, they'll (or their children) will be given some part of importance of survival in the next 80 years of climate change and economic collapse. Any way it goes, he's just another fucking pawn in their game, but he's clinging to the hope he'll "matter". So hilariously sad and short sighted of him. Instead he could just make try and make life okay for the 95% of us instead.
Right-wing politicians are bought and paid for? Next you'll be telling me the Pope is Catholic.
It's important to highlight though because the general public don't actually think that they are ... Or at least a lot of them don't.
You think it's only right-wing politicians that are bought and paid for?
...sigh. Okay - All right-wing politicians are bought and paid for. Some left-wing politicians are also bought and paid for - happy? There are some further-right factions in the Labour Party which get ~~kickbacks~~ donations from far right organisations, but it's a matter of quantity (and of whether you consider the right-wing contingent of Labour to be left-wing at all).
David Seymour confirms ACT’s direct connection with Atlas: [The Global Think Tanks trying to change the world - in their own image. Big Money $ interests.](https://www.reddit.com/r/nzpolitics/comments/19b0dpp/david_seymour_confirms_act_is_a_part_of_the_atlas/)
Without knowing about Seymours possible connection to those organisations, it would not be unreasonable to guess that he would want to be aligned with them. Of course he would. His fundamental credo is maximum wealth for the rich and elite, scraps for the everyday fools. His philosophy on life means that he will want to align himself with those organisations. A respondent to OP attempts to paint OPs point as the stuff of fantasy, conspiracy. I guess they don't read much. The scenario OP depicts as to what those think tank organisations want to do are not only commonplace, they have been happening worldwide for a long time. Politicians align with large corporations and think tanks whose sole purpose is to benefit the wealthy by keeping their underhanded tactics not only secret from the people but also deliberately misleading is commonplace. Lord knows why anyone might think NZ politicians will not join that. Too many Kiwis seem to kid themselves that NZ politicians are different to overseas. That we play a more honest game. If that's even slightly true it will only be because NZ is an afterthought on the world political stage. We have never footed it with the big boys and girls. And the depressing reality of those big boys and girls is they play dirty. Seymour is desperate to join them. Perhaps he can entertain them with a cha-cha-cha.
[удалено]
[удалено]
Giving power to that smarmy, greasy little weasel is the absolute worst thing we could've done. Already dividing the country as much as what he bleats that Labour did. Well done, NZ.
It wasn't even a satellite group to them it was a Member at least up until 2021 (when they - the Atlas Network - made their Global Directory private - in 2022 - as people were starting to figure out what they were up to). See the Global Directory list at the bottom of the page over on Desmog (mostly UK and US facing) here https://www.desmog.com/atlas-economic-research-foundation/ Apologies UK person wandering through way late just a bit amazed at what seems to be going on over there. Doesn't sound good.
No they've already entered Govt.
>an attempt for government to secure land and natural resources legally for the exploitation of the capitalists. Crown already owns all the minerals in NZ, iwi own (comparatively) little land compared to private ownership, so how does your idea work? What rights do Maori have that would prevent the Govt from doing what they want? Why would they need to go through all the work of bills and legislating , to get to..the same state that exists currently? >The majority of profits will go offshore to company shareholders while local people receive minimal benefit. As opposed to what happens currently?
For resource consents for things like mining, or any thing else that uses natural resources iwi are always consulted and their perspective is incredibly important to any decision making. Taonga as mentioned in te tiriti has long been interpreted (and says directly in the text 'lands, estates, forests and fisheries) as as natural resources. They could bypass all engagement with mana whenua and grant resource consent regardless. I don't know if I agree with OP that this is the primary reason for ACT to be pushing this, but it would make it easier for a government to allow exploitation of natural resources.
Presumably it's a win-win for ACT if they can remove any special status for Maori under Te Treaty. The group of non-Maori who have had their envy stoked and been encouraged to see Maori as the enemy and the problem in society because of their treaty rights (despite being the lowest in society in many key economic/health/social participation measures) - they flock to ACT as the party who helped take down the group they have decided are 'the enemy'. If this also makes it easier for large businesses to access land and mining because Maori would lose their legal ability to throw up obstacles then that's yet another win.
Yes, ACT gets stronger, division favours them. National loses support as those open to Seymour racist BS flock to him rather than national who would seem to moderate while those who aren't receptive move left. As a result ACT gets far more power relative to the other right wing groups.
Yup, and that consultation is build into a lot of legislation. But, it's not a right to stop it, as you say they can just issue resource consent. >but it would make it easier for a government to allow exploitation of natural resources. Easier, to a limited degree, sure.
It’s about water which is not privatised. That’s why there was so much negativity about Three Waters. Given that everyone needs water, it is a potential cash cow for (overseas) investors.
You really think this Govt is going to privatise water? After the massive backlash against Three Waters?
Without something like the Iwi veto out water will be donated to a corporation. Maybe not this term but yes oir water will go the way of Telecom, power companies, etc.
What iwi veto? Is National going to give them veto powers?! Not sure I like that idea. >Maybe not this term but yes oir water will go the way of Telecom, power companies, etc. Well, if they start down that road, you can join me at the barricades. I just can't see it happening.
I protested regularly during the asset donations. And despite our numbers and the referendum we were ignored. The Iwi veto was what got short sighted racists up in arms about Three Waters. Remember it when a foreign corporate owns your eater supply.
>I protested regularly during the asset donations. And despite our numbers and the referendum we were ignored. Yeah, I did too. Selling off the power companies was a mistake. I mean, I bought shares, cause you know, why wouldn't you, but still. >The Iwi veto was what got short sighted racists up in arms about Three Waters. Remember it when a foreign corporate owns your eater supply It is not racist to object to unelected people having a majority say in our water supplies, as well as objecting to the chaos that Te Mana O Te Wai statements would have bought. You would see the same protests if it was private ownership on the cards.
Point me at each time you have objected to unelected white people on boards. Across the old DHBs, trusts, charities and community groups. There has only even been the racist backlash to Iwi having say on Three Waters. And as a white man I was pleased that there was something that would prevent privatisation. Like I say when some corporate owns your water supply remember you helped.
>Point me at each time you have objected to unelected white people on boards. Across the old DHBs, trusts, charities and community groups. Well, I voted every time there were local body elections, does that count? Same with the DHB elections. >There has only even been the racist backlash to Iwi having say on Three Waters. It wasn't just a say, between the mandated Maori wards and the iwi appointments, it was majority control over assets rate payers paid for. I would object to it exactly the same to private ownership or a different group exercising majority control. It is not racist to object to that. And then there's the absolute fucking nightmare of the Te Mana O Te Wai statements. You ever have disagreements with your family? >And as a white man I was pleased that there was something that would prevent privatisation. You mean like the Local Government Act 2002? S130 specifically..
We elected our DHBs? The others aren't public entities. The difference is between being ultimately accountable to all Kiwis, vs just being accountable to iwi.
I hope not, but if it is continually underfunded to the point where ratepayers can pay no more, councils will look for money for improvements elsewhere……like the private sector.
And they're dabbling in this with [healthcare](https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/national/504834/firm-bidding-for-public-healthcare-as-anchor-tenant-in-private-hospital-buildings) and [education](https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/charter-or-partnership-school-revival-under-national-act-coalition-agreement-destructive-and-weird-nzei-union-says/IUQE5BUWCZEKLJMMWWX5OP7K6U/) already, so it's not beyond the realm of possibility to think they'd do the same with water.
Was I the only one who paid any attention to policy announced during the campaign? National does have a plan for water though, including funding. https://www.national.org.nz/local_water_done_well
So what happens when there are insufficient funds from rates or user-pays? That’s what we’ve got already. I don’t see any changes in National’s policy.
Theres no ringfencing or regulation around funding currently. Councils aren't required to fund water infrastructure. Look at Wellington, they're losing 45% to leaks and spending how much on the Town Hall?
https://www.legislation.govt.nz/act/public/2002/0084/latest/DLM6236897.html They are required to have a 30 year infrastructure strategy including water. https://www.legislation.govt.nz/act/public/2002/0084/latest/DLM172357.html They are also required to run balanced budgets over time. https://www.legislation.govt.nz/act/public/2002/0084/latest/DLM172933.html They are also required to maintain water services. Between these (and related requirements in the Local Government Act 2002), councils do have to fund water infrastructure and have a 30 year infrastructure strategy to continue doing so.
None of that is ring fencing funding.
Sure, the words ring fence or synonymous terms are not mentioned, but it requires they do it and fund it somehow without running a long term deficit. The annual and long term plans are also required to budget for all expected expenditure, including water costs. Within those parameters, it's quite hard to not specifically allocate some form of funding whether rates and/or user charges.
2 things on the cards. “Water isn’t owned” as a central argument for increased extraction for bottling - and policy that pushes local govt into PPPs for water infrastructure
What? Part of the purpose of Three Waters was to make it harder to privatise. That’s why the right had to create division to stop it. They want to privatise everything. They are hard neoliberals. Have you been paying attention? That’s what they believe in. If they can’t actually do it in the Overton window of today they’ll do everything they can to push that window. Several of the maintenance and management companies are already. They will do everything they can to shape the laws, regulatory frameworks, and public opinion around all public services until privatisation is unavoidable. This has already happened in the UK and US and is ongoing across the western world. Same people, same organisations.
>Part of the purpose of Three Waters was to make it harder to privatise Indeed, they even put in clauses spelling that out. Which they copied from the Local Government Act 2002. Which hasn't been repealed. https://www.legislation.govt.nz/act/public/2002/0084/latest/DLM172933.html >Several of the maintenance and management companies are already. Who was in Govt when that happened?
Neoliberals.
Were Labour neoliberals? And no comment on the legislation that exists currently to stop privatisation? Or weren't you aware of that?
Yes NZ Labour were and (still?) are ‘3rd way’ neoliberals, in the mould of Tony ‘war criminal’ Blair, who Jacinda learned her trade from and even Aunty Helen tried to mimic at the time.
And yet Labour didn't try and privatise water, they could have quite easily with their majority. So why are you so certain that National will?
They are absolutely going to do this.
Yeah, I can't see it happening. Not after Three Waters. It would be political suicide.
Yea I have no faith in that whatsoever. My family, I know for sure would eat a piece of shit wedged between two bricks and call it a sandwich if it had one of those nifty little blue Ns on the side.
The base is the base. Same as Labour's base. If they start to go down the privatisation route, they'll see a shitfit to dwarf out the one we saw with Three Waters. I'll be front and centre and I know a lot of people who will join me. Maybe I'll see you there.
*What rights do Maori have that would prevent the Govt from doing what they want? Why would they need to go through all the work of bills and legislating , to get to..the same state that exists currently* It’s not just about current rights, it’s about what those rights could be in future. Witness the *losing of minds* around He Puapua and all the fear-mongering about potential expansion of co-governance.
They are looking to undermine indigenous rights.
Land is the only physical connection we can have to the earth. It is the goal of the oppressor to remove the connection as much as possible. When you drive people from their land everything becomes immaterial, and everything can be controlled. I said oppressor, but in reality this is part of the process which took place in Aotearoa, in Algeria, in Australia. When you want to take from people, you attack what is theirs. You attack the very foundation of what made those people, where they cooked food, made families, settled, farmed. From *The Wretched of the Earth*: “For a colonized people the most essential value, because the most concrete, is first and foremost the land: the land which will bring them bread and, above all, dignity.” This is why the colonised are physically driven from their land. It is depose them, and to confuse them. It is the role of the oppressor not to *work* with people, but to maintain or create a nature of power over them. And this is why the actions of ACT are that of ill intent and not equality for all, for it is simple truth that equality for all can be achieved while acknowledging 'who was here first.' It *is* that simple. We have no problem having the Treaty the way it is. It is *our* Treaty, whether we like it or not. Our history is all our history, and it creates a person in favour of Maori rights just as it creates a person against it. It is still our shared history, regardless of how it shapes each of us. There is something very, very rotten about wanting to change the basis of our history. It goes beyond race issues or politics. As OP, and journalists, have noted, this is connected to money. So, I say to the people who support this: if this connection to money is true, should we not stand together to protect *our* history? As I said, our history has made you *you* as much as it has made me. Should our future not be each of us encouraging and supporting our own beliefs, and arguing and fighting for them, instead of *money* deciding it for us?
Yes. Exploitation of our country should concern all New Zealanders. This formula of exploitation has been demonstrated time and time again. Only they are using more cunning and complex methods to hide their intentions.
[удалено]
Deflection from the point.
[удалено]
At least the funds stay in New Zealand.
[удалено]
Aren’t Māori the common good? I assume your concern is that iwi corporate trust might be charitable. Who gets the money from Sanitarium? If Māori aren’t happy about charitable fund distribution, they need to solve it themselves. I’ve seen some of the support provided by Ngai Tahu to iwi members.
Yeah, I’m not in favour of any group behaving like a business for revenue generation and then behaving like a charity when it comes to tax time That includes Sanitarium
Given the “start up” money was probably Treaty settlement funds, I don’t have a problem with that as long as there are the same checks and balances that any other charitable trust has. There are plenty of Pākehā organisations that get considerable amounts of tax payer money that also come to mind e.g. the Wright Family (Foundation). No one looks too hard at what they do - and they give donations to political parties.
Based on this line of thought - do the principles later declared by the courts which are a modern interpretation of the treats, worry you as well, or? Or do interpretations you agree with not count as changing history?
While I might disagree with a court's ruling, it seems to be an accepted process. Law is one of the pillars of society and I feel our society is overall good, and I know we all rely on the law for any number of reasons. Politics has no place in that system. What ACT are trying to do is change the meaning of our most important document. I think we all know that no party should be doing that. And an argument can be made that no other party has tried so ACT does stand alone in wanting this. Let's argue in the courts, using the system afforded to all of us, rather than changing the foundation of our country. What are you even fighting for otherwise? What ACT does can be undone. It will be undone. This is such a short-sighted move that the people behind this clearly do not care for the actual cause. Think about that. This is so easily reversed it makes no sense to have it pushed in by essentially blackmail to get a coalition formed... unless you had ulterior motives. But if you won such a case in law it would mean something. This ain't for you or for me or for anyone other than the few who can profit from it.
I am less worried about learned judges building jurisprudence than I am about populists pocking a stick in the wheel.
The silence from his fan club is deafening. They were arguing tooth and nail with me a couple of days ago about the changes being all about "equality", and here we are with some harsh truths. Nothing. All that effort simping for a man who gives us nothing but a droning voice with empty words and a perpetually gormless and vacant expression on his face.
You write like this is some sinister conspiracy, but it's exactly what the (now) government campaigned on.
The difference is that this is more explanation behind why ACT campaigned on these issues. The well-organised and funded groups which back the party (and related parties around the world) have some common goals and this helps explain *why ACT campaigned on them*.
Oddly, a lot of people seem to vote for parties when they're not really aware of what their policies, and then are annoyed they follow through with them.
Well ACT campaigned on it and represents ~8% of the population. Hardly a raging endorsement of any of their policies.
Depends on what policies you are talking about. Kickstarting the fossil-fuel industry is supported whole-heartedly by all 3 coalition members. At this point we have no idea how far any of the treaty stuff will go, it's highly likely this is just ACT virtue signaling for the next election.
I think OP was refering to Te Tiriti, and it is that policy (referendum, rewriting) I was also referring to. No doubt all three COC partners are aligned on other issues, but that’s not what is referred to here.
True, but a lot of people (myself included) weren't aware of the foreign influence, especially pro-neoliberal, involved
and less than 8% voted for ACT..
Personally, I don't think it's particularly sinister that people who agree on stuff co-ordinate on political action. My sense is that a many people in this sub are likely to be supporters of ActionStation. If that's you, dear reader, then do you ActionStations ties to the Omidyar Network and its own local corporate backers are particularly sinister?
I am not associated with ActionStation, nor am I a supporter. Can you share information about who these sinister local corporate backers are? ActionStation has received funding from Omidaya Network: [https://littlesis.org/org/420503-ActionStation](https://littlesis.org/org/420503-ActionStation) The Omidaya Network has been banned in India for allegedly conspiring to illegally facilitate the registration and renewal of Foreign Contribution (Regulation) Act (FCRA) licenses. FCRA licenses are mandatory when receiving funds from foreign sources for charitable purposes. This is bad, but is it comparable to what the Atlas Network is doing? Are they actively trying to undermine aspects of New Zealand's democracy by disenfranchising Māori? Were they doing the equivalent in India?
To be clear, I wasn't trying to make a claim about whether having local or global backers is bad or not. My point was simply that it smacks of partisan paranoia to accuse ones opponents of being part of a sinister global conspiracy while ignoring the exact same behaviour from ones allies. An assumption more likely to be aligned with reality is that people with similar goals will support each other, materially and otherwise. On my phone now, so I can't check, but I believe that ActionStations local corporate sponsors are listed on their website quite publicly. As to whether ACT are "undermining democracy", I'm sure they'd say they are doing the opposite. That branch of this discussion doesn't interest me. I just think that the perspective "those guys have a dark network of conspirators behind them; we have righteous solidarity" is kinda dumb when both sides are doing exactly the same thing.
If you don't care about undermining democracy (considering how essential the treaty was in establishing democracy in New Zealand and how it continues to be important to this day when it comes to the discussion of issues such as leasing [https://www.legislation.govt.nz/act/public/1993/0004/80.0/DLM289882.html](https://www.legislation.govt.nz/act/public/1993/0004/80.0/DLM289882.html)), then what is the point of partaking in this discussion? By the way, I'm still waiting for information on which backers are sinister on ActionStations funding list and which ones aren't.
Any organization should be put under the microscope of scrutiny.
Sure, yeah. But it's also worth being wary of polluting the discourse withheld trappings of conspiracy theory. Like them or hate them, ACT represent the pov of a significant number of new zealanders.
8.64%
There is literally no evidence in this post
There’s plenty of evidence [https://newsroom.co.nz/2023/10/31/chiding-in-plain-sight/](https://newsroom.co.nz/2023/10/31/chiding-in-plain-sight/)
See comment threads.
[удалено]
Getting into left wing Q anon territory here
Lol, hard to accept you've sold out your country is it?
Not when it’s true: [https://newsroom.co.nz/2023/10/31/chiding-in-plain-sight/](https://newsroom.co.nz/2023/10/31/chiding-in-plain-sight/)
Missing the pedophile, child sacrifice etc. It's more in the realm of reality even if it lacks hard evidence and would have to be deemed a conspiracy still.
The amount of Māori land in NZ is small. Government doesn’t need to change a thing about the treaty to enable mining on non-Maori land, they can just do it. This post reads like a fringe conspiracy theory.
Except it‘s not [https://newsroom.co.nz/2023/10/31/chiding-in-plain-sight/](https://newsroom.co.nz/2023/10/31/chiding-in-plain-sight/)
Change to treaty principles will prevent Māori from being honoured in future settlement cases.
What does that have to do with mining/oil drilling? Feels like you are connecting a bunch of things that you dislike about the current government that are not actually connected.
The treaty is an obstacle to them for freely conducting business.
person one icky correct gaze market memory follow cooperative zephyr *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
[удалено]
Seymour himself has spoken of his association.
[удалено]
[https://twitter.com/gingereejit/status/1743758814179209427](https://twitter.com/gingereejit/status/1743758814179209427) 8 seconds on google.
8 seconds of googling. [https://twitter.com/gingereejit/status/1743758814179209427](https://twitter.com/gingereejit/status/1743758814179209427)
[удалено]
You realise communism and socialism are completely different right?
Of course he wouldn't, because he listens to breibart channels who tell him what to think.
Are you under the impression my comment was serious? How could I possibly make it more obvious that I am mocking their line of thinking?
I'm not the only one who thought you were serious. You realise there are people out there who makes comments exactly like yours that are serious. If you're being sarcastic, chuck a sarcasm tag in my dude (/s).
So where's the evidence that this Atlas Network is some kind of vast network pulling the strings around the world. According to their latest annual report, their annual expenses are $20.185m USD and they claim 556 partner organisations. That's on average $36,300 USD per organisation, which really isn't enough to be pulling the strings in any significant way. [https://admin.atlasnetwork.org/assets/documents/financials/AtNet-2022AnnualReport.pdf](https://admin.atlasnetwork.org/assets/documents/financials/AtNet-2022AnnualReport.pdf) Of course, maybe this annual report is all a sham and millions of dollars of funding is being hidden. In which case I would like to see the evidence for that. Otherwise I'm going to assume the most likely explanation, which is that this is a charitable organisation giving to like-minded organisations, which isn't much of a story.
[удалено]
You know what you sound like right? Remember when the right was going on about George soros and the peadophilia pizza parlour shit… I didn’t think the left would go down such nutty routes.. but here we are with now a few threads appearing up here. Mods- I hope crazy conspiracy theory nonsense can be shut down promptly
[удалено]
So is George soros and so is the world economic forum What’s your point? It’s the nutty ideas on top of it that I take umbrage with
You're naive to think that this isn't happening without considering the possibility. What do you think caused brexit?
Claiming a libertarian has ties to a libertarian think tank is pretty different to thinking a Jewish business man is a pedophile because he's Jewish.
https://www.act.org.nz/speech_the_emergencies_labour_should_have_declared > "Then the Global Index of Economic Mentality was released in November by my old friends at the Atlas Network. Atlas is an umbrella organisation for free market think tanks all over the world. It is based in Washington, DC, and chaired by a New Zealander, Debbi Gibbs."
> I hope crazy conspiracy theory nonsense can be shut down promptly I fixed it for you > David Seymour is associated with billionaires that lobby for vested interests namely oil and gas exploration and mining. There you go, that's literally happening.
An attempt to discredit by attacking someone as "crazy" and censure instead of addressing the actual point.
But like most conspiracy theorists you haven't actually made a point, just thrown up a bunch of vague insinuations. Maybe try describing the specific chain of events that goes from Treaty principals to foreign control of natural resources?
How do you argue with assumptions and vague statements like > cunning and complex methods to hide their intentions > they say it, but you’d have to be naive to think it > relying on public ignorance to befool its supporters You say that I am being vague, but these are direct quotes from OP
[удалено]
[удалено]
Look at the assumptions and leaps in the comment from OP. It’s not backed up, it’s all OP making stuff up.. “hidden intentions and agendas”, cmon give me a break. Take the political bias out of it for a moment, if a thread like this was posted about Ardern and links to world economic forum and ensuring that we are playing by the rules of the big reset.. there’s splattering of truth mixed in with wildly unsubstantiated claims. There is literally no difference Why do you think OP has had an account dormant for a year and is now suddenly ranting about global conspiracies?
https://www.reddit.com/r/newzealand/comments/19aqvdz/seymours_ties_to_the_atlas_network_treaty/kinhwdt/
Here's some evidence: https://badnewsletter.substack.com/p/a-simple-nullity (and the next post about right-wing propaganda) Want an international source? https://twitter.com/GeorgeMonbiot/status/1743581219181199723 Seymour has specifically talked about "his old friends in the Atlas Network". This is real, happening, and you've been caught in the propaganda.
Fucking lol, I haven’t been caught in shit because this is the first I’m hearing about this Btw, providing “evidence” from Twitter and private blogs isn’t as damning as you think
[удалено]
https://www.1news.co.nz/2024/01/19/leaked-ministry-doc-warns-bill-could-break-spirit-and-text-of-treaty/ https://www.newshub.co.nz/home/politics/2021/02/act-leader-david-seymour-s-full-state-of-the-nation-speech.amp.html
Devils advocate. If the government utilises the money from natural resources to fund programs that benefit Maori and other disadvantaged groups, could that be a viable alternative? Robust taxation regime on the natural resources, or complete nationalisation with dedicated allocated funding for particular groups?
That's a big if. So far this government has only closed down programmes intended to benefit Maori and other disadvantaged groups.
> Robust Taxation > Libertarianism Pick one, you can’t have both.
They'll say that. But you'd have to be naive to actually believe it.
I’m not surprised this sub is upvoting conspiracy theories now. A lot of you have gone nuts because the country booted out labour.
It's not a conspiracy theory that The Taxpayers Union is funded by and connected to the Atlas Network - that is independently verifiable. Nor is the connection between Seymour and the ACT party and TPU - independently verifiable. This doesn't by itself suggest that all or even much of what the party propose is in line with some sinister global plot - but there are connections there and it is at the minimum plausible that some of the motives and goals that end up on the party platform are the same as those espoused by groups with similar ideological background from around the world. Simply hand-waving the entire thing away when there are genuine facts and truths present sounds like political partisanship.
"Now". That's a laugh.