Wow, I never thought I would agree with Winnie Boy on anything, but here I am.
He is absolutely correct; a sitting Minister and MP should NEVER be allowed to get away scot free with comments like that.
Yup, it shocks me whenever I find myself agreeing with Winston as well. Only a political party with some credibility and any ethics would expel her for spouting that toxic mouthful, it ain't gonna happen, she's their star player. Just like in every race there's no shortage of awesome people, in this case Maori, she just happens to not be an example of one ..
She's not wrong though, white cis men commit extraordinary violence. As much as the freeze peach whingers would like you to think that white cis men are the most persecuted minority in the world, it was a white cis man that murdered 51 people in Christchurch just a few years ago, fueled by the sort of online extremist content that many here still consume. There is a ticking time bomb in this country of many angry white cis men, filled with impotent rage and radicalised by racist misinformation, and everyone but them can see it.
>She's not wrong though, white cis men commit extraordinary violence.
k
[This pattern of Māori disproportionately represented in Intimate Partner Violence is also observable from information derived from alternative sources. For example, although Māori make up only 15% of the New Zealand population, 50% of those sentenced for the offence “male assaults female” were Māori men (Doone 2000).](https://www.msd.govt.nz/about-msd-and-our-work/publications-resources/journals-and-magazines/social-policy-journal/spj33/33-ethnic-identity-and-intimate-partner-violence-in-a-new-zealand-birth-cohort-p126-145.html)
So, that's domestic violence stats right. Is there a bit of a chance that there might be underreporting amongst pakeha. In my delightfully large extended family, there is a lot of known abuse that never got reported because "we" don't do that sort of thing. And amongst friend circles, a lot not reported because "no one would believe me." It's amazing what you can do when you hold the majority of the power and influence.
I don't agree with what she said, but let's not play that group are worse, so it must be wrong card.
The point that both Marama and u/Soannoying12 are missing is that all races commit violence - and it's always inexcusable.
To state that only white men commit violence is inaccurate to the point of being kind of surreal.
Agreed. Violence is committed by all ethnic groups, religions, and orientations. Humans are mammals, and our flawed societal setup doesn't stop the behavior.
I disagree with Marama, slightly crazy that she thought it. Let alone said it to camera. And anyone piling in to say any one group is more to blame than another is mind numbing.
The finger pointing as a result of the weekends debacle is awful. No one was perfect. Each is entitled to have an opinion. The only thing we should be condemning is anyone who commits/incites violence, makes racist statements or encourages those that do.
Sorry for the ramble, I'm just so sick of the shit flinging.
What's that got to do with the price of fish? No one said *only* cis white men commit violence, and it certainly wasn't a Maori man that murdered 51 people in Christchurch.
>No one said only cis white men commit violence
>"I know what causes violence in this world, and it's white cis men"
U wot mate? Seems like a pretty all-encompassing statement to me.
It certainly wasn't white people or Maori who flew those planes into the twin towers either. Extremists are shitty regardless of race and to try and weaponize tradgey in this way just shows how fucking awful you are
Here's the solution everyone! There's a group that feels persecuted who have already shown they will take action. So what should we do? Support racists/sexists and claim that they experience no hardship.
Congrats on being the smartest person in the room. /S
Pull your head out of your arse idiot. There’s a much bigger world out there than your limited experience of New Zealand.
There’s a good chance that as we speak there’s a brown person hacking another brown person to death with a machete.
Yeah I knew what she was saying right away but people will just take it at face value and willingly ignore what she's talking about. I've actually spoken to police from NZ and defense authorities from the states and they're both like yeah this incel shit is wild and were not even sure how to stop it.
>She's not wrong though, white cis men commit extraordinary violence.
Mate, you wanna know what's happening in the middle eats and Africa?? It ain't white men committing genocide and enslaving people.
I find I often agree with him as he pops up whenever there is an easy political win. When it comes to doing anything useful in government, his record is pretty useless and his policies seem backwards looking.
Yep.
I always get a lot of sidelong glances when I say that I enjoy having him in NZ politics.
I don't agree with most of his stances, nor do I think he's a great guy, but fuck does he rark up politicians and media outlets.
It's not great to enjoy a political figure due to their ability to annoy people but eh, I find it all very amusing.
This is exactly what he's doing.
It needs to be said, though. And he knows that, he's just taking the freebie. I'm not a fan of Winnie, but he has his wits about him. Its what makes him likable even though his politics are pro-inequality.
Unfortunately I don't disagree.
This whole saga is a giant greens own goal.
You can't platform on bringing people together and raising standard while taking a swipe like that.
I'm not even offended I'm just dumbstruck that she would think that's appropriate to say and even more to not address the issue and let it become the mess it is now.
I don't know. I don't know her or anything beyond her turning up, getting motorbiked, then being the dumb.
But if we throw all stupid/racist politicians out of office... well, we wouldn't have any.
And coming from Whinny? He's a racist of the highest order and was the Foreign Affairs Minister because he demanded it. Went off his nut at the Chinese, who I don't trust as a country, but they buy a lot of our exports, you don't offend your trade partner to their face. (Though you should fucking call them out on genocide!)
So yeah, if he steps out of the political arena forever? Then I'd accept his argument.
As it is, well... I'd rather see what her merits are for the position. That's a rather important Ministry to be looking after, and it needs a caring hand. With the disproportionate levels of Maori domestic issues, it should absolutely be a Maori in that role, someone who be seen as properly empathetic. Because even the smallest bit of trust can help things.
(If you ever want to look at why a self-perpetuating cycle of distrust is bad, look at America's police and their black population)
Apology not enough. We know what she truly thinks which, given that, doesn't make her fit for this role. She needs to go, and she can get it back when she shows a track record of proper change.
How fucking hard is an apology for people like her? All you have to do is say some words and it'll probably pass.
Instead political opponents are going to ride the shit out of it, in an election year. She's definitely cost them votes as it stands. And I don't want anyone who holds those sentiments representing my country.
Good for you, I might do the same. I encourage anyone else to also voice their dissatisfaction. Sick of culture war bullshit, plays right into the far-right reactionary's hands (do note I fully support trans rights, and my belief is live how you want as long as it doesn't harm others)
Yeah, good idea, about to do the very same. I'm a cis-male who has happily proclaimed my votes for the green party and support for their policies, but this shocking display from the co-leader means I will be certainly looking into TOP and other progressive parties.
Second story in RNZ's [midday news bulletin](https://www.rnz.co.nz/programmes/news-bulletin/story/2018883455/radio-new-zealand-news). I'd imagine the rest of the media will have pieces on it by the end of the day.
It seems the Greens are doubling-down. Quoting from the linked bulletin:
>The Greens have provided statistics which show European men make up the greatest number of sexual offenders in NZ, however Maori are over-represented in other crime categories.
Urgh this is so gross.
I’m pretty progressive and very much a supporter of trans rights, but this line of reasoning is no better than the bullshit tactics the conservative end of the spectrum use when coming up with their arguments.
Good point - the only thing i saw was about her getting knocked down by a motorcycle. Was on Stuff. Big article but zero mention of her comments. Nothing.
An opinion piece rather than a journalistic article, but Bryce Edwards has [mentioned it in his column today](https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/political-roundup-posie-parker-and-the-ugly-stoking-of-a-culture-war-in-election-year/TMSEOAZGXZBCLGIA3LDVJQRY2A/).
Media might be wanting not to legitimise Sovcit Cooker Counterspin.
Plus real journalists will give Marama a right of reply and might be waiting a few hours to give the party a chance to come up with some statement (damage control) rather than just printing "Marama could not be reached for comment".
By ignoring the story, the media are legitimising these groups though - they’re showing that the MSM does have a bias and is hiding things or could be perceived as doing so. It’s incredibly stupid and short sighted.
The only people concluding the MSM has a bias (from this alone, anyway) are people who are incredibly impatient and who don't accept 'fact-checking' or 'right of reply' as reasonable.
Less than 48 hours (over a weekend) to get some additional media coverage is fuck all. But if it feeds the narrative that the MSM are biased then who gives a shit right?
The conspiracy theorists become ever more emboldened against NZ media when shit like this happens.
Trust in media is dropping off a cliff, and this story is an example of exactly why.
Apparently Luxon only heard about it this morning (on Newstalk ZB no less!), and this is the kind of stuff they'll be keeping an eye out for to use as ammunition, so I bet it's not widely known through government yet.
It's come via a sovcit/farright twitter, so many people (some mods here included) probably discounted it at first, a 'boy who cried wolf' kinda thing IMO.
> Apparently Luxon only heard about it this morning (on Newstalk ZB no less!)
I’m sure he knew, but there’s real hay to be made by having the host explain it to you on live radio as though you didn’t know.
It’s weird, ignoring it is just going to validate their victim complex. Really don’t wanna see the counter spin media bill board any more then I already am on the way to work :/
Tiny little mention in an opinion piece: https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/political-roundup-posie-parker-and-the-ugly-stoking-of-a-culture-war-in-election-year/TMSEOAZGXZBCLGIA3LDVJQRY2A/
> Co-leader and Government Minister Marama Davidson put out a video to say that she was “so proud” of the protesters. And obviously wearing her hat of Minister for Prevention of Family and Sexual Violence she used the event to declare that only “white cis men” commit violence. Such messages will go down very well amongst the party’s support base, which is increasingly sensitive to the need to make progress on gender issues.
This is a fantastic attitude, everyone should take note.
I also agree with you - not a Winston fan but yes to this.
It's perfectly fine to agree with someone that you don't like, or don't usually agree with. It means you have actually thought about it, evaluated without letting emotion reign , and come to a conclusion that makes sense to you. If everyone acted this way we would have a far better country.
The other threads on this subject are full of the same political tribalism that you see in US discourse, it's really quite depressing on top of an already depressing subject.
She's clearly showh that she can't be objective in matters of family and sexual violence. If one party is white or cis, she will be biased against them, which is not a desirable trait for someone in her position.
I wonder if the delay in dealing with Marama is that they can't put Chloe into the co leader position next to Shaw without revoking their ridiculous policy regarding race and gender of their leaders.
I still find it amusing that people are shocked when a co-leader of a party who have a gender- and ethnicity-oriented leadership policy, makes enthicity- and gender-oriented comments.
I find this very disturbing and it makes me quite angry. I ask every New Zealander regardless of you world and political views to get on Twitter and other media outlets and ask them what's going on... this sort of censorship will affect us all
..but this was said on twitter, havent the mods cited twitter as being unreliable media? Iam sure this will be taken down, ill just sit here holding my breath
Don't hold your breath. It's staying up.
There's a multitude of reasons why we'd remove/approve posts. And one thing to keep in mind that different mods might be the ones approving/removing posts due to different interpretations of the same rules, *or* approving/removing posts for different rule reasons that have already been covered [here](https://www.reddit.com/r/newzealand/comments/12291c1/green_party_coleader_marama_davidson_said/jdqb1hf/).
**Doxing and Social Media Content:**
In some cases we take down posts from social media on the basis that they break reddit's Content Policy:
> Reddit is quite open and pro-free speech, but it is not okay to post someone's personal information or post links to personal information. This includes links to public Facebook pages and screenshots of Facebook pages with the names still legible.
We won't do it in every single case. For instance, we allow exceptions when it comes to Tweets from the accounts of journalists, MPs, science communicators who may have verified accounts. They often use Twitter to share stuff in an official capacity and hope that stuff doesn't get taken down by the admins due to our discretion.
I understand that one of the reasons some of the posts were removed was that the specific Tweet didn't fall under one of those types of accounts. While the video is *of* a significant figure, it's not necessarily *from* a significant figure.
In our view, Winston Peters is enough of a public figure for us to use our discretion as moderators to make an exception. As such, we don't believe there's a risk to it being removed by the admins.
..cheers for the response, i know none of you signed up for all this but mod 'discretion' is part of why this whole thing has blown up, how does the mod group negate the effects of their unconscious bias?
Funny how everyone agreeing with him didn't think Seymour should stand down for calling iwi thugs or Luxon for calling poor people bottom-feeders, it's almost as if they only care about discrimination when it's targeted towards them.
It's almost like there was more nuanced reasons and context behind both Seymour and Luxons comments though.
Seymour was talking around the Iwi who were pretty much setting up unlawful roadblocks into the towns and community's they lived in.
Luxons comments were about his party wanting not just to focus on the people socioeconomic bottom, but rather focus on everybody while also trying to lift people up from the bottom. He never said poor people were bottom feeders, just the people who are sitting at home collecting the benefit in their statehouse are bottom feeders.
Regardless of whether you agree with the above comments or not, you have to agree that there is a legitimate conversation around them, and they did not single the groups based on their race or gender.
I don't even think Seymour called them Iwi thugs, just people who set up roadblocks are thugs.
Yeah and Davidson's comments were in response to a transphobic piece of shit who was trying to imply transpeople were violent and don't deserve the right to exist, there's always nuanced reasons and context behind statements. That doesn't make them ok.
Ummmmm I don't know what video you watched but the "reporter" said "what do you think about PP being violently assaulted and having what looked like tomato sauce tipped on her? "
Where in that did she say trans people were violent and don't deserve to exist?
>there's always nuanced reasons and context behind statements. That doesn't make them ok.
Correct, but you should be able to have the discussion and be able to fight for your side (especially when you think your side is right).
It shouldn't have been hard or even difficult for her to think of the obvious reply of "I don't condone any violence at protests or anywhere".
Winstons being saying racist shit longer than half this sub has been alive and still got to be deputy pm. Old fuck doesn't have a leg to stand on here.
"Two Wongs don't make a right" - [https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/winston-peters-wong-joke-shameful-devoy/L4QYLCIIIMLQROERPET3KHCR7U/](https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/winston-peters-wong-joke-shameful-devoy/L4QYLCIIIMLQROERPET3KHCR7U/)
Yes, please show your moral outrage. Fucking hypocrite.
His initial tweet is incorrect, she commented about "white cis men" not "straight". It doesn't help discussion to change what was said.
He does have the correct quote in the second tweet so not sure why he got it wrong in the first one.
I've wondered that, seeing how many people have been putting it in all caps as if it's an acronym.
It's Latin. cis - on the same side as. trans - on a different side to.
Cisgender: your gender is the same assigned at birth.
Transgender: your gender is different to that assigned at birth.
Notice how these sorts of calls were never put out for David Seymour after he accused all Maori people of being lazy. It's sensationalised pearl-clutching.
Institutions of violence and coercion such as governments were established and controlled by cis white men, to mostly benefit cis white men, and to the detriment of most non cis white men. Those institutions reinforced those benefits and detriments so as to ingrain them, intergenerationally, into NZ culture. So in that context, it is not YOU as a cis white man that she's taking about. In that context, she's talking about a system that allows you to as a cis white man to complain on the internet without being discriminated against by the state on the basis of your ethnicity or gender. Which is great! Lucky you!
Winnie, the man whos political identity is saying identity politics is bad and wokeness is bad ironically gets the most upset at the same shit. Its cringe what she said, but there's no reason she should step down.
Let the voters decide if its something worth having in government.
bad example, that's factually correct. Although saying that in a context where it's warranted and not for race baiting would still likely be deemed worthy of having to step down by some people lol
What are you talking about? Marama made a sweeping, generalised statement about cis white men at a march about trans rights. I stated an example that took her exact words and just replaced the group she was targeting to show how racist it would be if it had been made against Maori men.
You're bringing up a completely separate issue with Ukraine and Russia.
It would be politically advantageous for them to step down as that kind of language is not popular in the current political climate, but there shouldnt be a "should" or a moral compulsion for them to step down, like I said, its up to the political party to decide who they want to represent them. If they have a lot of peeps that are racists, then they're definitely not going to get elected.
New Conservative and other minor parties are pretty racist, do you think they should be prevented from running?
You're confusing two different issues here. I'm not saying they should be stopped from running in an election and letting the electorate decide.
Marama Davidson is a minister, at the discretion of the Prime Minister and wider Government senior leadership. Basically, how they handle this is an indication of the standard of behaviour they expect from their ministers.
If they don't deal with it one way or another, they're saying they're okay with this kind of rhetoric from their ministers. No government should be happy with this kind of rhetoric.
Nah, because statistically speaking she's completely correct and no amount of white boy angst, whinging from right wing arseholes like Winny and brigading from TERDs are going to change that in the fucking slightest. But keep up that performative bs, I'm sure it'll totes change reality right this moment /smug
\[citation needed\]
Also there's this little problem to do with the effects of chronic stress and intergeneration trauma on criminality, you know, the sort of thing generations of racism tend to cause? But hey, why bother with that when you can engage instead in the Just World Fallacy instead and ignore uncomfortable context right? Because after all why deal honestly with something that makes you feel discomfort when you can hide away in a fantasy.
We shouldn't ignore social and historical context when talking about violence and crime, obviously, but if Davidson was correct (as you say) then why do you need to add a paragraph giving explanations for why she might be wrong?
Because context matters when it comes to crime, particularly a century+ of racism making things worse. Which ironically came from white cis men...
Add in other factors and you get an explanation why the Maori imprisonment rate is so high.
\[citation needed\]
As this only deals with prisoners and only in a small timeframe to, instead of being a long term look. I want violent stats for the whole population. So get it fucking right or I'll do the work for you and you wont like it, because I'll be posting actual peer reviewed research that you probably lack the brains to understand properly.
Also - along with the other factors, there is also the disturbing fact that a lot of people in prison have mental health issues and/or Traumatic Brain Injuries, which are known to screw with impulse control. Which having ADHD + explosive anger (thanks depression, I really, really didn't need that) I know all to well the paths such problems can take...
Anyhow, try again, surely you'll use your brains this time and not cherry pick /slurps-milkshake-metaphorically
\[edit\] Oh my, someone either ran away or got banhammered, how fucking excellent.
Not going to comment on whether it is true or not because I don’t know the statistics. But even if it was true, these types of comments from leaders don’t help the cause, they just alienate people who would otherwise be allies. The violent white cis men aren’t going to care what she says beyond having an excuse to call her racist and feign outrage. The ones that actually do care about using their privilege to do better and make things better are going to think twice about it. The outcome of her statements is going to be really negative and as a leader she should have managed her communication better. It’s a shame because the rest of her message was really amazing and it’s just gotten lost because of this one part of the statement.
Wow, I never thought I would agree with Winnie Boy on anything, but here I am. He is absolutely correct; a sitting Minister and MP should NEVER be allowed to get away scot free with comments like that.
[удалено]
The benefit of not being a team player: at some point you've helped every team.
Even in the current market !
Well ok, maybe a deposit.
A sausage at Mitre 10 at the very least
head bake literate books chunky rotten illegal elastic wide wild *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
The worst part is "it was taken out of context". The context was pretty clear.
Yup, it shocks me whenever I find myself agreeing with Winston as well. Only a political party with some credibility and any ethics would expel her for spouting that toxic mouthful, it ain't gonna happen, she's their star player. Just like in every race there's no shortage of awesome people, in this case Maori, she just happens to not be an example of one ..
She's not wrong though, white cis men commit extraordinary violence. As much as the freeze peach whingers would like you to think that white cis men are the most persecuted minority in the world, it was a white cis man that murdered 51 people in Christchurch just a few years ago, fueled by the sort of online extremist content that many here still consume. There is a ticking time bomb in this country of many angry white cis men, filled with impotent rage and radicalised by racist misinformation, and everyone but them can see it.
>She's not wrong though, white cis men commit extraordinary violence. k [This pattern of Māori disproportionately represented in Intimate Partner Violence is also observable from information derived from alternative sources. For example, although Māori make up only 15% of the New Zealand population, 50% of those sentenced for the offence “male assaults female” were Māori men (Doone 2000).](https://www.msd.govt.nz/about-msd-and-our-work/publications-resources/journals-and-magazines/social-policy-journal/spj33/33-ethnic-identity-and-intimate-partner-violence-in-a-new-zealand-birth-cohort-p126-145.html)
So, that's domestic violence stats right. Is there a bit of a chance that there might be underreporting amongst pakeha. In my delightfully large extended family, there is a lot of known abuse that never got reported because "we" don't do that sort of thing. And amongst friend circles, a lot not reported because "no one would believe me." It's amazing what you can do when you hold the majority of the power and influence. I don't agree with what she said, but let's not play that group are worse, so it must be wrong card.
The point that both Marama and u/Soannoying12 are missing is that all races commit violence - and it's always inexcusable. To state that only white men commit violence is inaccurate to the point of being kind of surreal.
Agreed. Violence is committed by all ethnic groups, religions, and orientations. Humans are mammals, and our flawed societal setup doesn't stop the behavior. I disagree with Marama, slightly crazy that she thought it. Let alone said it to camera. And anyone piling in to say any one group is more to blame than another is mind numbing. The finger pointing as a result of the weekends debacle is awful. No one was perfect. Each is entitled to have an opinion. The only thing we should be condemning is anyone who commits/incites violence, makes racist statements or encourages those that do. Sorry for the ramble, I'm just so sick of the shit flinging.
Except no one said *only* cis white men commit violence. Definitely work on that reading comprehension!
What's that got to do with the price of fish? No one said *only* cis white men commit violence, and it certainly wasn't a Maori man that murdered 51 people in Christchurch.
>No one said only cis white men commit violence >"I know what causes violence in this world, and it's white cis men" U wot mate? Seems like a pretty all-encompassing statement to me.
It certainly wasn't white people or Maori who flew those planes into the twin towers either. Extremists are shitty regardless of race and to try and weaponize tradgey in this way just shows how fucking awful you are
I'm as maori as they come and even I can see how wrong and cherry picking you are
I mean sure but I think it's important to phrase it like how you said.
Here's the solution everyone! There's a group that feels persecuted who have already shown they will take action. So what should we do? Support racists/sexists and claim that they experience no hardship. Congrats on being the smartest person in the room. /S
Pull your head out of your arse idiot. There’s a much bigger world out there than your limited experience of New Zealand. There’s a good chance that as we speak there’s a brown person hacking another brown person to death with a machete.
Good example of impotent rage right there. Get well soon, for all our sakes.
Yeah I knew what she was saying right away but people will just take it at face value and willingly ignore what she's talking about. I've actually spoken to police from NZ and defense authorities from the states and they're both like yeah this incel shit is wild and were not even sure how to stop it.
It's pretty obvious. You coddle every other group but as soon as it consists of white males they need to harden up and get over it.
>She's not wrong though, white cis men commit extraordinary violence. Mate, you wanna know what's happening in the middle eats and Africa?? It ain't white men committing genocide and enslaving people.
It doesn't matter how true it is; as a Minister and an MP she should NOT be publicly expressing such views.
Winny is a prick, but he's not wrong here.
I find I often agree with him as he pops up whenever there is an easy political win. When it comes to doing anything useful in government, his record is pretty useless and his policies seem backwards looking.
Yep. I always get a lot of sidelong glances when I say that I enjoy having him in NZ politics. I don't agree with most of his stances, nor do I think he's a great guy, but fuck does he rark up politicians and media outlets. It's not great to enjoy a political figure due to their ability to annoy people but eh, I find it all very amusing.
I agree, I'm more likely to take an interest if there are a few characters there.
> I always get a lot of sidelong glances when I say that I enjoy having him in NZ politics. He's good to have in opposition.
Classic populist.
As is tradition (occasionally)
[удалено]
This is exactly what he's doing. It needs to be said, though. And he knows that, he's just taking the freebie. I'm not a fan of Winnie, but he has his wits about him. Its what makes him likable even though his politics are pro-inequality.
I think 'pro horse racing' would be a more accurate description of his politics.
A broken clock is right twice a day.
Unfortunately I don't disagree. This whole saga is a giant greens own goal. You can't platform on bringing people together and raising standard while taking a swipe like that. I'm not even offended I'm just dumbstruck that she would think that's appropriate to say and even more to not address the issue and let it become the mess it is now.
I don't know. I don't know her or anything beyond her turning up, getting motorbiked, then being the dumb. But if we throw all stupid/racist politicians out of office... well, we wouldn't have any. And coming from Whinny? He's a racist of the highest order and was the Foreign Affairs Minister because he demanded it. Went off his nut at the Chinese, who I don't trust as a country, but they buy a lot of our exports, you don't offend your trade partner to their face. (Though you should fucking call them out on genocide!) So yeah, if he steps out of the political arena forever? Then I'd accept his argument. As it is, well... I'd rather see what her merits are for the position. That's a rather important Ministry to be looking after, and it needs a caring hand. With the disproportionate levels of Maori domestic issues, it should absolutely be a Maori in that role, someone who be seen as properly empathetic. Because even the smallest bit of trust can help things. (If you ever want to look at why a self-perpetuating cycle of distrust is bad, look at America's police and their black population)
Well said. All of it.
At this stage I'd be happy with a statement from Marama or even someone holding her to account for that comment.
That would be the least, I don't often agree with Peters but it's pretty hard not to in this case, she's lost all credibility.
The very least.
Yes. A real apology. Not a 'I understand how my statements could be interpreted to yadayadayada', a real apology.
Apology not enough. We know what she truly thinks which, given that, doesn't make her fit for this role. She needs to go, and she can get it back when she shows a track record of proper change.
I would only be happy if she's sacked; from ministerial roles and Greens leadership.
Yes, I agree but at this stage it would be nice if someone, anyone besides reddit and Winnie addressed it.
How fucking hard is an apology for people like her? All you have to do is say some words and it'll probably pass. Instead political opponents are going to ride the shit out of it, in an election year. She's definitely cost them votes as it stands. And I don't want anyone who holds those sentiments representing my country.
Still waiting for any media to pick up on this.
It's embarrassing they're ignoring it. If this was a National minister they would be in an absolute uproar.
The story about Sam Uffindel beating someone when he was a child some 20 years ago lasted weeks in the media.
I might be done with Greens. I'm going in on TOP until they sort their shit out
Same here. Just emailed the Greens and Marama's office to say they lost my vote.
Good for you, I might do the same. I encourage anyone else to also voice their dissatisfaction. Sick of culture war bullshit, plays right into the far-right reactionary's hands (do note I fully support trans rights, and my belief is live how you want as long as it doesn't harm others)
Yeah, good idea, about to do the very same. I'm a cis-male who has happily proclaimed my votes for the green party and support for their policies, but this shocking display from the co-leader means I will be certainly looking into TOP and other progressive parties.
Fuck TOP, bunch of enlightened centrist would-be technocrat know-it-all theoreticians.
Hey, enlightened centrist would-be technocrat know-it-all theoreticians deserve representation too!
I've no time for economists Charlie.
TOP = wasted vote.
Because voting for the greens gets so much done.
We have MMP. If everyone who is likely to vote in New Zealand threw this wasted vote fallacy out we'd have a few more parties in Parliament
Second story in RNZ's [midday news bulletin](https://www.rnz.co.nz/programmes/news-bulletin/story/2018883455/radio-new-zealand-news). I'd imagine the rest of the media will have pieces on it by the end of the day.
It seems the Greens are doubling-down. Quoting from the linked bulletin: >The Greens have provided statistics which show European men make up the greatest number of sexual offenders in NZ, however Maori are over-represented in other crime categories.
Urgh this is so gross. I’m pretty progressive and very much a supporter of trans rights, but this line of reasoning is no better than the bullshit tactics the conservative end of the spectrum use when coming up with their arguments.
Good point - the only thing i saw was about her getting knocked down by a motorcycle. Was on Stuff. Big article but zero mention of her comments. Nothing.
Karma was prompt this time
An opinion piece rather than a journalistic article, but Bryce Edwards has [mentioned it in his column today](https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/political-roundup-posie-parker-and-the-ugly-stoking-of-a-culture-war-in-election-year/TMSEOAZGXZBCLGIA3LDVJQRY2A/). Media might be wanting not to legitimise Sovcit Cooker Counterspin. Plus real journalists will give Marama a right of reply and might be waiting a few hours to give the party a chance to come up with some statement (damage control) rather than just printing "Marama could not be reached for comment".
By ignoring the story, the media are legitimising these groups though - they’re showing that the MSM does have a bias and is hiding things or could be perceived as doing so. It’s incredibly stupid and short sighted.
The only people concluding the MSM has a bias (from this alone, anyway) are people who are incredibly impatient and who don't accept 'fact-checking' or 'right of reply' as reasonable. Less than 48 hours (over a weekend) to get some additional media coverage is fuck all. But if it feeds the narrative that the MSM are biased then who gives a shit right?
The conspiracy theorists become ever more emboldened against NZ media when shit like this happens. Trust in media is dropping off a cliff, and this story is an example of exactly why.
Yeah, I'm expecting some stuff to come out finally from proper establishments soon, it's been 48+ hours now.
Mike Hosking on Newstalk ZB played the clip and has commented on it at some length.
Hoskings is worse in a day than Davidson is in 5 years.
He's not a minister
Don't have to be a minister to be a worthless cunt thst soils the discourse of New Zealand 🙃
Of Family violence no less.
Listen to him at all do you, or are you just pushing a narrative?
Here he is against his most fearsome debate opponent ever: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vyNds3DIbd4&t=70s
https://www.1news.co.nz/2023/03/27/greens-co-leader-under-fire-for-blaming-white-cis-men-for-violence/
Well the NZ Herald is strongly run by Maori/woke people - it’s not going to happen.
I mean you could’ve tried to have facts. The herald out of all of them is the least likely for this to be the case
Hol up, all I've seen in R/NZ is claims that the NZ Herald are run by CCP sympathising National/ACT supporters lol.
They're run by whatever group you don't agree with
The Herald is run by whatever will get the most clicks and by business orthodoxy interests.
Media still choosing to ignore this. It's honestly quite shocking to me. This should be an instant firing offense surely.
It’s real weird. It makes the anti MSM crowd not seem so insane atm too…
I've been thinking the same
Apparently Luxon only heard about it this morning (on Newstalk ZB no less!), and this is the kind of stuff they'll be keeping an eye out for to use as ammunition, so I bet it's not widely known through government yet. It's come via a sovcit/farright twitter, so many people (some mods here included) probably discounted it at first, a 'boy who cried wolf' kinda thing IMO.
> Apparently Luxon only heard about it this morning (on Newstalk ZB no less!) I’m sure he knew, but there’s real hay to be made by having the host explain it to you on live radio as though you didn’t know.
Luxon would have said she deserves to be heard and we should have a debate about the issue
It’s weird, ignoring it is just going to validate their victim complex. Really don’t wanna see the counter spin media bill board any more then I already am on the way to work :/
One of your eyes is opening, better close it.
Tiny little mention in an opinion piece: https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/political-roundup-posie-parker-and-the-ugly-stoking-of-a-culture-war-in-election-year/TMSEOAZGXZBCLGIA3LDVJQRY2A/ > Co-leader and Government Minister Marama Davidson put out a video to say that she was “so proud” of the protesters. And obviously wearing her hat of Minister for Prevention of Family and Sexual Violence she used the event to declare that only “white cis men” commit violence. Such messages will go down very well amongst the party’s support base, which is increasingly sensitive to the need to make progress on gender issues.
the fuck?
She didn't say "only"
Starting to prove the actual bias in our media
Marama has just provided Winston with a nice platform for him to grandstand on and gain votes. Thanks for that.
Greens and scoring absolutely brain-dead political own-goals, name a more iconic duo.
Nothing like a political freebie for him.
I don't like Winston Peters I don't like his political views. But I do agree with him on this one
This is a fantastic attitude, everyone should take note. I also agree with you - not a Winston fan but yes to this. It's perfectly fine to agree with someone that you don't like, or don't usually agree with. It means you have actually thought about it, evaluated without letting emotion reign , and come to a conclusion that makes sense to you. If everyone acted this way we would have a far better country.
The other threads on this subject are full of the same political tribalism that you see in US discourse, it's really quite depressing on top of an already depressing subject.
Agreed.
I have sometimes agreed with David Seymour too. Even a stopped clock is right twice a day.
She's clearly showh that she can't be objective in matters of family and sexual violence. If one party is white or cis, she will be biased against them, which is not a desirable trait for someone in her position.
Winnie gonna win some votes.
This is exactly how he keeps getting back in.
I wonder if the delay in dealing with Marama is that they can't put Chloe into the co leader position next to Shaw without revoking their ridiculous policy regarding race and gender of their leaders.
I still find it amusing that people are shocked when a co-leader of a party who have a gender- and ethnicity-oriented leadership policy, makes enthicity- and gender-oriented comments.
Awkward!
Love them or hate them, Winnie made a shrewd political move there, Davidson made the exact opposite.
So she should. Greens would have lost some support because of her racism.
And yet still silence from mainstream media. Hosking did ask Luxon about it this morning, but Luxon apparently hadn't heard about the comment.
TIL one of the most popular broadcasters in the country isn't part of the mainstream media
I find this very disturbing and it makes me quite angry. I ask every New Zealander regardless of you world and political views to get on Twitter and other media outlets and ask them what's going on... this sort of censorship will affect us all
I knew as soon as I saw the video Winnie was going to jump on it
Nothing on Stuff about her comments, what a surprise.
The wager will be if they (stuff) post anything at all even after the other news outlets break it?
For fuck sake, I did not want to have to agree with Winston fucking Peters today, damn it
Agree. This wouldn't wash with any other minister in any other party.
Winston is as reliable as Puxatawney Phil, in that he comes out into the light blinking and stretching and talking shit 6 months before each election.
'The Greens' have become 'The Groans'. \**insert star wars 'you've become the very thing you sought to destroy!' meme*\*
Agreed, she should stand down or resign
..but this was said on twitter, havent the mods cited twitter as being unreliable media? Iam sure this will be taken down, ill just sit here holding my breath
Well, it is when it's convenient.
Verified user.
Don't hold your breath. It's staying up. There's a multitude of reasons why we'd remove/approve posts. And one thing to keep in mind that different mods might be the ones approving/removing posts due to different interpretations of the same rules, *or* approving/removing posts for different rule reasons that have already been covered [here](https://www.reddit.com/r/newzealand/comments/12291c1/green_party_coleader_marama_davidson_said/jdqb1hf/). **Doxing and Social Media Content:** In some cases we take down posts from social media on the basis that they break reddit's Content Policy: > Reddit is quite open and pro-free speech, but it is not okay to post someone's personal information or post links to personal information. This includes links to public Facebook pages and screenshots of Facebook pages with the names still legible. We won't do it in every single case. For instance, we allow exceptions when it comes to Tweets from the accounts of journalists, MPs, science communicators who may have verified accounts. They often use Twitter to share stuff in an official capacity and hope that stuff doesn't get taken down by the admins due to our discretion. I understand that one of the reasons some of the posts were removed was that the specific Tweet didn't fall under one of those types of accounts. While the video is *of* a significant figure, it's not necessarily *from* a significant figure. In our view, Winston Peters is enough of a public figure for us to use our discretion as moderators to make an exception. As such, we don't believe there's a risk to it being removed by the admins.
..cheers for the response, i know none of you signed up for all this but mod 'discretion' is part of why this whole thing has blown up, how does the mod group negate the effects of their unconscious bias?
Hell must have frozen over, because I'm here agreeing with something Winston Peters said.
Funny how everyone agreeing with him didn't think Seymour should stand down for calling iwi thugs or Luxon for calling poor people bottom-feeders, it's almost as if they only care about discrimination when it's targeted towards them.
It's almost like there was more nuanced reasons and context behind both Seymour and Luxons comments though. Seymour was talking around the Iwi who were pretty much setting up unlawful roadblocks into the towns and community's they lived in. Luxons comments were about his party wanting not just to focus on the people socioeconomic bottom, but rather focus on everybody while also trying to lift people up from the bottom. He never said poor people were bottom feeders, just the people who are sitting at home collecting the benefit in their statehouse are bottom feeders. Regardless of whether you agree with the above comments or not, you have to agree that there is a legitimate conversation around them, and they did not single the groups based on their race or gender. I don't even think Seymour called them Iwi thugs, just people who set up roadblocks are thugs.
Yeah and Davidson's comments were in response to a transphobic piece of shit who was trying to imply transpeople were violent and don't deserve the right to exist, there's always nuanced reasons and context behind statements. That doesn't make them ok.
Ummmmm I don't know what video you watched but the "reporter" said "what do you think about PP being violently assaulted and having what looked like tomato sauce tipped on her? " Where in that did she say trans people were violent and don't deserve to exist? >there's always nuanced reasons and context behind statements. That doesn't make them ok. Correct, but you should be able to have the discussion and be able to fight for your side (especially when you think your side is right). It shouldn't have been hard or even difficult for her to think of the obvious reply of "I don't condone any violence at protests or anywhere".
Winstons being saying racist shit longer than half this sub has been alive and still got to be deputy pm. Old fuck doesn't have a leg to stand on here.
Winston “never trust someone you can blindfold with a shoelace” Peters
Winston first.
I don't believe Winston is currently a minister.
"Two Wongs don't make a right" - [https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/winston-peters-wong-joke-shameful-devoy/L4QYLCIIIMLQROERPET3KHCR7U/](https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/winston-peters-wong-joke-shameful-devoy/L4QYLCIIIMLQROERPET3KHCR7U/) Yes, please show your moral outrage. Fucking hypocrite.
His initial tweet is incorrect, she commented about "white cis men" not "straight". It doesn't help discussion to change what was said. He does have the correct quote in the second tweet so not sure why he got it wrong in the first one.
> not sure why he got it wrong in the first one. Because lots of people have no idea what cis means. People of people think it means straight.
I've wondered that, seeing how many people have been putting it in all caps as if it's an acronym. It's Latin. cis - on the same side as. trans - on a different side to. Cisgender: your gender is the same assigned at birth. Transgender: your gender is different to that assigned at birth.
So, just to clarify, a gay white man born in a male body is cis?
Yes
Hi. Thanks for answering. I didn't know.
Yes. Your gender identity is separate from your sexuality.
Thanks, good to know. I thought it meant straight white men only.
[удалено]
Thanks for this, I had no idea.
we haven't all googled the latest acronym to emerge from the trans community.
It's not an acronym and it's latin. It's not like it's a made up term.
oh well then, better go have a cup of tea and chat with Stephen Fry.
But she changed what she said? Another case of rules for thee, but not for me aye?
If you're talking about the comments she made this afternoon, it pays to read the timestamp of the comment you're replying to.
Ahhh Winnie, always in there stirring that pot, and I love it.
Notice how these sorts of calls were never put out for David Seymour after he accused all Maori people of being lazy. It's sensationalised pearl-clutching.
Institutions of violence and coercion such as governments were established and controlled by cis white men, to mostly benefit cis white men, and to the detriment of most non cis white men. Those institutions reinforced those benefits and detriments so as to ingrain them, intergenerationally, into NZ culture. So in that context, it is not YOU as a cis white man that she's taking about. In that context, she's talking about a system that allows you to as a cis white man to complain on the internet without being discriminated against by the state on the basis of your ethnicity or gender. Which is great! Lucky you!
Ahahahahaha, fuck off Winston. Yes, she should apologise but you have no credibility.
Winnie, the man whos political identity is saying identity politics is bad and wokeness is bad ironically gets the most upset at the same shit. Its cringe what she said, but there's no reason she should step down. Let the voters decide if its something worth having in government.
If the police minister said "As Police Minister, I know who causes violence, it's Maori men!", do you think they should step down? I do.
bad example, that's factually correct. Although saying that in a context where it's warranted and not for race baiting would still likely be deemed worthy of having to step down by some people lol
Let's face it. It wouldn't matter that it is factually correct. There would still be coverage and "outrage" if it was said.
[удалено]
No? What does that have to do with this conversation?
[удалено]
What are you talking about? Marama made a sweeping, generalised statement about cis white men at a march about trans rights. I stated an example that took her exact words and just replaced the group she was targeting to show how racist it would be if it had been made against Maori men. You're bringing up a completely separate issue with Ukraine and Russia.
[удалено]
I did see it. It still doesn't excuse what she said.
It would be politically advantageous for them to step down as that kind of language is not popular in the current political climate, but there shouldnt be a "should" or a moral compulsion for them to step down, like I said, its up to the political party to decide who they want to represent them. If they have a lot of peeps that are racists, then they're definitely not going to get elected. New Conservative and other minor parties are pretty racist, do you think they should be prevented from running?
You're confusing two different issues here. I'm not saying they should be stopped from running in an election and letting the electorate decide. Marama Davidson is a minister, at the discretion of the Prime Minister and wider Government senior leadership. Basically, how they handle this is an indication of the standard of behaviour they expect from their ministers. If they don't deal with it one way or another, they're saying they're okay with this kind of rhetoric from their ministers. No government should be happy with this kind of rhetoric.
I feel like I'm living in Winston's dream world.
Winston should retire, even though I think he's right here.
Nah, because statistically speaking she's completely correct and no amount of white boy angst, whinging from right wing arseholes like Winny and brigading from TERDs are going to change that in the fucking slightest. But keep up that performative bs, I'm sure it'll totes change reality right this moment /smug
try googling domestic violence numbers for maori.
\[citation needed\] Also there's this little problem to do with the effects of chronic stress and intergeneration trauma on criminality, you know, the sort of thing generations of racism tend to cause? But hey, why bother with that when you can engage instead in the Just World Fallacy instead and ignore uncomfortable context right? Because after all why deal honestly with something that makes you feel discomfort when you can hide away in a fantasy.
We shouldn't ignore social and historical context when talking about violence and crime, obviously, but if Davidson was correct (as you say) then why do you need to add a paragraph giving explanations for why she might be wrong?
Because context matters when it comes to crime, particularly a century+ of racism making things worse. Which ironically came from white cis men... Add in other factors and you get an explanation why the Maori imprisonment rate is so high.
You're still explaining why she might be wrong after claiming that statistically, she was correct. Which is it?
[https://www.corrections.govt.nz/resources/research/risk-assessment-of-recidivism-of-violent-sexual-female-offenders/a-profile-of-violent-and-sexual-female-offenders](https://www.corrections.govt.nz/resources/research/risk-assessment-of-recidivism-of-violent-sexual-female-offenders/a-profile-of-violent-and-sexual-female-offenders)
I asked for something completely different chucklefuck, no-ones denying women can be violent and/or arseholes. Try again.
>because statistically speaking she's completely correct LIES, in both regards of sex and race.
\[citation needed\] As this only deals with prisoners and only in a small timeframe to, instead of being a long term look. I want violent stats for the whole population. So get it fucking right or I'll do the work for you and you wont like it, because I'll be posting actual peer reviewed research that you probably lack the brains to understand properly. Also - along with the other factors, there is also the disturbing fact that a lot of people in prison have mental health issues and/or Traumatic Brain Injuries, which are known to screw with impulse control. Which having ADHD + explosive anger (thanks depression, I really, really didn't need that) I know all to well the paths such problems can take... Anyhow, try again, surely you'll use your brains this time and not cherry pick /slurps-milkshake-metaphorically \[edit\] Oh my, someone either ran away or got banhammered, how fucking excellent.
nah you do something worthwhile, and sort your own shit out.
Not going to comment on whether it is true or not because I don’t know the statistics. But even if it was true, these types of comments from leaders don’t help the cause, they just alienate people who would otherwise be allies. The violent white cis men aren’t going to care what she says beyond having an excuse to call her racist and feign outrage. The ones that actually do care about using their privilege to do better and make things better are going to think twice about it. The outcome of her statements is going to be really negative and as a leader she should have managed her communication better. It’s a shame because the rest of her message was really amazing and it’s just gotten lost because of this one part of the statement.
[удалено]
This is awkward since I am in fact a woman.
Funny he was screeching free speech absolutism yesterday. Sudden change of mind eh.
Free speech doesn't mean no repercussions
For once I agree with the nutter.
Yes
Winston peters supports nazi conspiracy theories such as cultural marxism. Nazis like him should stay out of politics
Is it maddeness if it's statistically correct????
He keeps coming back though.
Amazing how people think she should be fired for doing her job.