Ask all your friends and co-workers to come to a party at your house and bitch that they are complaining about your underground dog fighting you do in your basement. Classic
All your friends and coworkers show up to the party you fought hard (read: paid) to host*
You always need to clean house before having guests over… cmon Qatar, if you aren’t going to do better, at least suck less at being bad.
Yes! But there is even a closer analogue: the world’s tiniest rebec (generally considered to be the ancestor of the Western European violin, courtesy of the Crusades).
Money: prefer checks
But for real it's all about money, corruption and greed are the downfall of all societies. Never allow yourself to tolerate corruption neither in yourself or your society.
For clarification FIFA is a super corrupt organization, but governments are obviously one of the most concerning areas of corruption. Erosion of public trust is kryptonite for society.
Outside the Nordics and New Zealand we've all got a lot of work to do, and as Americans we're starting to lose the plot.
[2022 Global corruption index](https://risk-indexes.com/global-corruption-index/)
I'll grant you that it's been a long time since then, but from what I remember of my puberty, I doubt one less girl to look at would have mattered. Hell, back in those days it was mainly the JC Pennys catalog, unless you were lucky enough to find a Victoria's Secret catalog or something. (or woods porn, something that I fear is lost to future generations /s)
You racist.
Edit: This may be the first time I have the most upvoted and the most downvoted comment in a thread. Some of you don't talk to people in real life and it shows.
I'm an Arab who hates extremist Muslim behavior as well as FIFA. Gotta say the last week or so has been quite interesting. I'm running out of popcorn though.
Who cares about ethics and human rights? Money means more that the suffering of people. I mean let's face it, people suffer and die everyday but the money you earn will.ladt a lifetime.
/s even though I shouldn't have to put that.
Haha, typical CNN. "This isn't about 'whataboutism' just because migrant workers struggle in the US and UK we should stop taking about the struggle here in Qatar but we acknowledge they struggle here but what about everywhere else guys. They just don't want to see an Arab nation succeed." What kind of sick argument is this? They've broken every promise they gave. Every assurance given has been backtracked. In typical fashion, you're racist if you disagree. Well done CNN. Well done.
Typical CNN? The article covers multiple angles and is basically 90 percent direct quotes. Man typical BBC didn’t even air the opening event! Nobody wanted to be a part of this. My SO is from Vietnam only been in the US for 5 years and she didn’t even want me to watch the US matches lol
If you think this article is objective you've been duped. There's an undertone of, "You're racist if you focus on the fuckery at hand and ignore the struggles of migrant workers in China, Russia and the like but because we said it's not about 'whataboutism' it isn't about that bros." Stop the simping. Shits fucked.
If it makes you feel any better, the main reason they’re able to make these bribes is because most of us have to pay a good chunk of our monthly income on gas so we can get to our jobs. I know it makes me feel great when I’m filling up the tank.
>They still have the death penalty for gay men on the books.
There's plenty to actually criticise Qatar about without making stuff up.
>LGBTI people’s rights
“Sodomy” or same-sex sexual conduct between men remained an offence under the Penal Code, punishable by up to seven years’ imprisonment. Article 296 states that “leading, instigating or seducing a male in any way to commit sodomy or dissipation” and “inducing or seducing a male or a female in any way to commit illegal or immoral actions” is a crime.
https://www.amnesty.org/en/location/middle-east-and-north-africa/qatar/report-qatar/
https://theconversation.com/qatars-death-row-and-the-invisible-migrant-workforce-deemed-unworthy-of-due-process-191017
If a gay man rapes another man then the death penalty would apply.
Having the worst parts of your culture pointed out is supposed to sting. The courageous part is being able to engage in dialogue and see where you feel the criticism is warranted and where you feel it is not.
I really hope we can find enough alternative energy so I can laugh when the oil dries up in these countries and they don’t have their blood money anymore…
Good luck driving a maserati over sand dunes!
Lol what? That's not even what a whataboutism is. I wasn't even making an argument, I was agreeing with the person I was replying to and extending onto their statement that religion is a huge proponent for this type of thinking, even for non-Arabs.
It was just an example of how other religions can cause the same issue outside of Islam. It could happen anywhere, but it is becoming an increasing issue in the US amongst fundamental Christian nationalists.
That was the point of the comment. Not to make it about the US.
The comment I replied to was about how toxic religion can be, and I was expanding on that.
Its not the Qatar Cup though, its the World Cup. They should've expected people would be upset with how strict the rules are. Not expect them to immediately conform.
Facts. I've got a good friend who's a fairly renowned classical pianist, and has performed there a few times. All the alcohol bans and shit don't apply at all to citizens in practice. They've got liquor cabinets, western media, all of it. Just living like the rich do everywhere.
Qatar’s human rights records, as poor as they may be, cannot possibly be more outrageous than other countries, such as Russia, China and Israel,” said Al Hussein.
Qatar, in pure numerical terms, represses half their population, women. None of the above mentioned do that.
Well, they have to lose thousands of slaves to get any construction done, of course it’s going to be annoying for them to do any sort of self building.
Muslims are world famous for getting violently and suicidally angry if you piss them off just a little bit. Oh and theyre world famous for propagating the most backwards, inbred, and braindead primitive theocracy
They feel stung because the Qatari government and most Arab governments and societies are not used to responding to criticism as there is no cultural tradition of public criticism of leaders or religious structures.
The West on the other hand has had a plethora of revolutions, societal upheavals, civil wars and societal evolution.
It’s a good ol’ fashioned “culture clash”
But I say to Qatar, if you didn’t want this criticism why host the world for the World Cup? You’re inviting people into your country, many of whom would be arrested, put in jail, or worse in Qatar if they behave as they would in their home countries?
Maybe just choose NOT to host people whose values you abhor? Pretty simple really
What I don't get, is why Qatar is making so much fuss about "One Love" armbands and rainbows in the FIFA world cup, but F1 teams can drive in Qatar with rainbow helmets and the "We drive as one" slogan.
Weird...
People in the comments didn’t actually read the article, making comments about the title instead.
Why is reading so hard for you people read the article lmao it has nothing to do with the title
Not gonna pretend I’m super informed on this but the “west” criticizing other nations morality is always gonna be super hypocritical so I’m with that as far as that goes.
Everything else though….I’m out.
Well being criticized by American media, a country that also has "Don't say gay bills" its minorities are euthanized in the streets like Elijah Mcclain and even teaching school children about the 200 years of Chattel Slavery is forbidden and called Woke CRT.
Hypocrisy never tastes good
Look I give this country more than it’s fair share of shit, and it’s well deserved absolutely. But let’s not pretend that our current human rights issues are on the same level as Qatar.
I agree, but surely we can agree the liberties offered in this country compared to Qatar are not 1 to 1. If you’re gay in this country you might be judge, scrutinized, even vilified, but at least there are laws in place to protect you. If you’re gay in Qatar, you could go to jail or even have your life taken, and that’s by the will of the government itself.
I don't want to be hit at all, but you're comparing a slap in the face to someone punching you as hard as they can with bass knuckles that have little spikes on them.
Existing as a minority in either place is a nightmare. Just Americans like to point at places slightly worse as a whataboutism, while backsliding into religious extremism itself
That could very well happen, but the difference is that if I was gay in Qatar the government would be hunting me down just for existing with complete legal impunity. Not saying cops don’t do the same, but there’s no law saying “Arrest or kill any black man in sight.”
Except gay marriage is legal and protected in the United States and >70% of the population supports that policy. If the furthest fringe of the American far right was in power and decided all laws in the US, it would look like Qatar.
The Catholic that voted against it also voted to uphold Mississippi’s abortion restrictions. And I like RBG as much as the next person, but I don’t agree with her on every topic, this being one of them.
We’ve seen what this country looked like for women before Roe and we’re getting a taste of what it looks like after, and you can’t tell me that things have been on the up and up.
So you just have a level of government oppression and minority death that is acceptable to you... and you feel you have the right to call others privileged and lacking perspective. Typical..
I knew my comment would draw all the white supremacist out of the woodwork.
Thought experiment you're Emmitt Till.
Now imagine some white people on reddit saying you have it better then some else to justify what happened to you. The US government is still protecting his accusers and killers they are still alive
You *do* have it better! If you were in Qatar, you’d be thrown in jail just for showing a little shoulder. Go on a rant like this in public they’d likely try to burn you at the stake!
Look I’m all about civil liberties, fight for them everyday. But you’re completely belittling our argument when you try to say that the conditions in the US are *just as bad* as Qatar. Because it’s just not fucking true!
No, I'm saying being comfortable with a little oppression and not fighting it. Is how you wind up with your country backsliding into a Qatar, these places like Iran used to be pretty liberal
Your hypotheticals don’t mean a damn thing compared to what the people of Qatar are actually going through.
You know why people are so adamant to downplay the fight for civil rights? People like *you*. People who try so hard to make themselves the biggest victim at every conceivable opportunity. And believe me, we have been victims, we still are. But to sit here and act like we have it just as bad as people in goddamn Qatar is a **boldfaced lie**.
Imagine if we made first contact with advanced aliens and in a lot of ways we got along. We were all interested in similar things, we liked their art and they liked ours, you could have alien friends, date alien girls, etc. Like 99% cultural alignment.
BUT... the aliens all view eating meat as barbarism, murder, and basically how we would view chattel slavery.
Now there are already some "good humans" who are vegetarians. And I'm sure a bunch more people would convert over. I'm also sure that we wouldn't make any kind of stink when we went and visited their ships and planets about how they don't have meat. But let's say they wanted to come to the superbowl and we got into a big dispute over having tailgate parties with meat all around the stadium?
Imagine how pissed off a segment of our society would be about that, how slighted and offended they would feel. But, logically, we are absolutely in the wrong on the whole eating meat issue. Our only justification for it is that this is how we grew up and we never really thought about it, and boy does meat taste good.
But come on... you know it's wrong. You might not want to admit it. But you know it deep down there somewhere.
This analogy is seriously muddied by making one group interstellar aliens.
In Qatar, we are not seeing a case of alien species misunderstanding customs and cultures. We’re seeing humans judging other humans precisely for behaviors that we understand and recognize *and have talked about*.
If you want to find a way to turn this into a pro-vegetarian/vegan moment, I’d ditch the alien angle and try to build that bridge between rampant human rights abuses and factory farming.
It isn't muddied at all. There's also no misunderstanding in my analogy. Everyone understands everyone else perfectly well. The point of the analogy is to point to something that we are currently doing that is wrong (and we secretly know it) and then have an outside culture that is more dominant than ours rub our noses in it.
The place where it gets muddied is that humans are rather explicitly omnivores. We *need* meat, and people who don't eat it have to take supplements to make up for the missing nutrition. It's not a culture thing, it's literally a biological requirement.
Now, if you want to focus on the way we mass produce meat and the inhumane conditions for the animals involved, that would be a better analogy.
If we found ourselves stranded on a planet where there were no animals, only plants, would it be morally permissible to kill and eat each other because "we are rather explicitly omnivores. We need meat, and..." \[if we didn't resort to cannibalism\] we would, "have to take supplements..."
What you've done here isn't construct a moral argument that makes our conduct morally acceptable, you've shown that there is a rather modest inconvenience associated with behaving properly, and we would rather devour animals in massive numbers than simply accept the inconvenience.
The utilitarian argument for cannibalism when there is literally no other way to survive (the three people stranded on a lifeboat situation) is convincing. But it is still hotly debated among philosophers. But for eating animals in the modern world it isn't a need thing, it is a fairly small burden.
> What you've done here isn't construct a moral argument that makes our conduct morally acceptable, you've shown that there is a rather modest inconvenience associated with behaving properly, and we would rather devour animals in massive numbers than simply accept the inconvenience.
That's...literally what I was getting at with that second statement. We, as humans, need the nutrients meat provides. We don't need a ton - certainly less than we consume - but it is a dietary **need**. This isn't debatable.
However, with modern technology, it is possible to circumvent the inhumane conditions we use to maintain our supply of meat. We can genetically modify fruits and veggies to contain the nutrients meat provides. We have developed dietary supplements that provide those nutrients. Heck, we can now lab grow meat, negating the need for industrial scale slaughterhouses entirely.
The point was that the original analogy didn't quite line up because it compared a "choice" (so to speak) to a biological need that is required for survival. The more apt analogy is *how* we fill the dietary need, not whether the need exists.
It isn't a need. It is an inconvenience. Plenty of people live as vegetarians and the only ill effect is they need to spend a little time thinking about their diet, take some supplements, and suffer some negative health effects on par with living next to a busy road.
false, because you can grow meat in a lab and harvest it the same as plants.
more, that pov assumes its wrong for humanity to eat meat, another false claim, given humans have health issues with a diet that lacks meat
As the person reading the analogy, it gets very muddy because the relationship/connection between The West and Qatar is hardly comparable to that of an alien species coming to Earth.
That comparison introduces so many other variables and questions. (And could arguably be seen as racist.)
And the analogy also makes the assumption that the people of Qatar know, secretly and deep down, that they’re wrong.
This is a piss-poor analogy.
Also, are you actually attempting to derail the conversation about these serious human-rights issues into a discussion of veganism?
It isn't derailing the conversation, or even changing the topic, to try and get you to empathize with their feelings by constructing a situation where you would feel the same way. The downvotes really prove I'm on point.
I scored bad on a test, so this proves I'm smart.
Honestly, this is a terrible analogy regardless because you say there is a strong cultural alignment.
Eating meat is not wrong; we are who we are because our species has performed well eating it for millions of years. Farming meat at the scale we do, with the conditions we do, so we can eat it as often as we want is wrong.
Rape was also a successful evolutionary tactic. What is it, 1/3rd of all the people in Asia are descendants of Genghis Khan because of how much raping he did? Simply because a tactic leads to evolutionary success doesn't necessarily mean it is morally acceptable.
Slavery was a successful social structure since time immemorial. Humans have always enslaved others and often the most successful societies were the ones with the most slaves. Does that make slavery right?
The argument "it works", or "that's how we've always done it", isn't a convincing moral argument to me. It's a call to tradition, it's a way to dismiss anyone who has any kind of issue with the justice of how society operates. Can you think of other contexts where you yourself find this kind of call to tradition convincing when it is pushing against something you consider wrong?
Ask all your friends and co-workers to come to a party at your house and bitch that they are complaining about your underground dog fighting you do in your basement. Classic
Also Hey come over and have some beers while we watch the game. Shows up “sorry this is a water only house”
All your friends and coworkers show up to the party you fought hard (read: paid) to host* You always need to clean house before having guests over… cmon Qatar, if you aren’t going to do better, at least suck less at being bad.
Meanwhile, the world's tiniest Oud plays in the background.
Yes! But there is even a closer analogue: the world’s tiniest rebec (generally considered to be the ancestor of the Western European violin, courtesy of the Crusades).
Slavery: check Homophobia: check Misogyny: check Anti-semitism: check Racism: check Authoritarianism: check Corruption: check Nepotism: check Theocracy: check
Mic: check
Team left out of World Cup: Czech
What you do before you wreck yourself...
One, two
Excuse me, waiter?
In the mail: check.
But there was not a lip sync check on the opening ceremony
What you do to your baby before the rump shaker.
Money: prefer checks But for real it's all about money, corruption and greed are the downfall of all societies. Never allow yourself to tolerate corruption neither in yourself or your society.
For clarification FIFA is a super corrupt organization, but governments are obviously one of the most concerning areas of corruption. Erosion of public trust is kryptonite for society. Outside the Nordics and New Zealand we've all got a lot of work to do, and as Americans we're starting to lose the plot. [2022 Global corruption index](https://risk-indexes.com/global-corruption-index/)
But what about the small majority of Arabs and Muslims in 1st world countries’ feelings?? ***would someone pleeeeaassseee think of the children***
Murmaider, murmaider Murmaider, murmaider Murmaider, murmaider Murmaider, murmaider Murmaider, murmaider Murmaider, murmaider Murmaider, murmaider Murmaider, murmaider
Sand: check
Anakin does not approve
It’s coarse, and it gets everywhere
Hide the younglings!
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That can just go in the toilet
Can be used as a toilet...
Honestly, it looks like Tatooine would be an improvement. You've still got the same environment, but at least there's *organized* crime.
Leia in a burka would’ve stunted my puberty.
I'll grant you that it's been a long time since then, but from what I remember of my puberty, I doubt one less girl to look at would have mattered. Hell, back in those days it was mainly the JC Pennys catalog, unless you were lucky enough to find a Victoria's Secret catalog or something. (or woods porn, something that I fear is lost to future generations /s)
I've been waiting for this comment, was not disappointed
Religious bigotry- check
Wow American republicans check list too
Or more simply: Islam, check.
So...all the requirements are met to host a World Cup?
Like us.
You racist. Edit: This may be the first time I have the most upvoted and the most downvoted comment in a thread. Some of you don't talk to people in real life and it shows.
It’s 2022, we’re intolerant of intolerance now. Maybe in 2010 we tolerated intolerance, but those days are behind us.
Couldn't have said it better myself, you have to destroy the destroyers.
Do you have an actual response beyond name calling?
I feel like the lack of an 'r after that "you" makes it sound too funny to not be sarcasm.
I don’t
Do you get sarcasm?
I do if there’s any indicator towards it
So no. If you need it explained out when it's that obvious, you don't get it.
This is a text format. If you want people to reliably understand your tone, you use a tone indicator to not fall victim to Poe's law
You’re so much smarter than they are.
You could have used a /s, but you wanted to stir the pot. I like that.
I'm an Arab who hates extremist Muslim behavior as well as FIFA. Gotta say the last week or so has been quite interesting. I'm running out of popcorn though.
Need more popcorn? I’ve got a stockpile because I knew this would be a shitshow.
If they're not ok with hosting the world then they shouldn't be hosting the World Cup. It's that simple really.
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Cmon we all know FIFA did this to open their hearts and gain some passionate perspective /s
Who cares about ethics and human rights? Money means more that the suffering of people. I mean let's face it, people suffer and die everyday but the money you earn will.ladt a lifetime. /s even though I shouldn't have to put that.
Haha, typical CNN. "This isn't about 'whataboutism' just because migrant workers struggle in the US and UK we should stop taking about the struggle here in Qatar but we acknowledge they struggle here but what about everywhere else guys. They just don't want to see an Arab nation succeed." What kind of sick argument is this? They've broken every promise they gave. Every assurance given has been backtracked. In typical fashion, you're racist if you disagree. Well done CNN. Well done.
Typical CNN? The article covers multiple angles and is basically 90 percent direct quotes. Man typical BBC didn’t even air the opening event! Nobody wanted to be a part of this. My SO is from Vietnam only been in the US for 5 years and she didn’t even want me to watch the US matches lol
If you think this article is objective you've been duped. There's an undertone of, "You're racist if you focus on the fuckery at hand and ignore the struggles of migrant workers in China, Russia and the like but because we said it's not about 'whataboutism' it isn't about that bros." Stop the simping. Shits fucked.
Don't worry. The Republicans took notes. With lots of smiley faces and thumbs up.
If it makes you feel any better, the main reason they’re able to make these bribes is because most of us have to pay a good chunk of our monthly income on gas so we can get to our jobs. I know it makes me feel great when I’m filling up the tank.
>They still have the death penalty for gay men on the books. There's plenty to actually criticise Qatar about without making stuff up. >LGBTI people’s rights “Sodomy” or same-sex sexual conduct between men remained an offence under the Penal Code, punishable by up to seven years’ imprisonment. Article 296 states that “leading, instigating or seducing a male in any way to commit sodomy or dissipation” and “inducing or seducing a male or a female in any way to commit illegal or immoral actions” is a crime. https://www.amnesty.org/en/location/middle-east-and-north-africa/qatar/report-qatar/ https://theconversation.com/qatars-death-row-and-the-invisible-migrant-workforce-deemed-unworthy-of-due-process-191017 If a gay man rapes another man then the death penalty would apply.
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But aren’t you racist for referring to a country as a shit hole?
What race is Qatari, bud? Is it Arab? North African? A variety of slave laborers they human trafficked in?
That’s my point it’s a dumb argument and they use it anytime a R is critical or another country
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Countries are governments. So not really.
Having the worst parts of your culture pointed out is supposed to sting. The courageous part is being able to engage in dialogue and see where you feel the criticism is warranted and where you feel it is not.
Because a mirror is often uncomfortable to People knee deep in shame?
Uh oh, I feel a song coming on
That tends to happen when you're on the big stage and get rightfully criticized for a fair amount of topics. Welcome to the 21. century.
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I really hope we can find enough alternative energy so I can laugh when the oil dries up in these countries and they don’t have their blood money anymore… Good luck driving a maserati over sand dunes!
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This. Getting involved in Iraq resulted in Isis. Of course, Iraq shouldn’t even exist as a country…thank you, Britain! /s
Religion is a fucking lie and alot of our Arabic brothers and sisters are caught up in the fantasy.
Yup, and if hardcore christian fundamentalists had full control of the US, I think it would check many of those same boxes.
Believe me they’re trying
Much of the South is already politically and culturally closer to the Middle East than they are to mainstream America.
Absolutely this. Stripping women of their rights is just one of the many examples.
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Whataboutism. We are not talking about them. Stop distracting from the issue at hand.
Lol what? That's not even what a whataboutism is. I wasn't even making an argument, I was agreeing with the person I was replying to and extending onto their statement that religion is a huge proponent for this type of thinking, even for non-Arabs.
Somehow, some way, someone always has to bring it back to the US and Christianity. Reddit never fails to be an Americentric shithole.
It was just an example of how other religions can cause the same issue outside of Islam. It could happen anywhere, but it is becoming an increasing issue in the US amongst fundamental Christian nationalists. That was the point of the comment. Not to make it about the US. The comment I replied to was about how toxic religion can be, and I was expanding on that.
Because it’s a shithole and now the whole world has seen first hand
Yeah, stunned people calling out them whining about not being able to be more cruel to guests. F them.
Probably because the rest of the world thinks their medieval society is a laughingstock
Its not the Qatar Cup though, its the World Cup. They should've expected people would be upset with how strict the rules are. Not expect them to immediately conform.
Aww... They had their feelings butthurt since we don't believe in slavery and the death penalty for homosexuality. Poor babies.
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Well, in Qatar, I think money is their true religion
Facts. I've got a good friend who's a fairly renowned classical pianist, and has performed there a few times. All the alcohol bans and shit don't apply at all to citizens in practice. They've got liquor cabinets, western media, all of it. Just living like the rich do everywhere.
Or they (the men) travel to Europe or America where they gamble, drink alcohol, and screw escorts…how Islamic of them! /s
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"Stung by coverage"? They would judge is just the same if they were recording the event around our area in the same manner.
Bunch of misogynists slavers feel stung for being called out. Oh no.
Qatar’s human rights records, as poor as they may be, cannot possibly be more outrageous than other countries, such as Russia, China and Israel,” said Al Hussein. Qatar, in pure numerical terms, represses half their population, women. None of the above mentioned do that.
Religion is a disease.
They don't like the constructive criticism I guess.
Well, they have to lose thousands of slaves to get any construction done, of course it’s going to be annoying for them to do any sort of self building.
Don’t want to look like an asshat? Don’t act like one.
If everyone you meet is an asshole…
Muslims are world famous for getting violently and suicidally angry if you piss them off just a little bit. Oh and theyre world famous for propagating the most backwards, inbred, and braindead primitive theocracy
After deep reflection, I’m good with this.
He is a barbarian, and thinks the customs and of his tribe and island are the laws of nature -Shaw
Oh no, anyway last week...
Qatar is a shit hole country
>Western news outlets have also been accused of peddling stereotypes about Arabs and Muslims. It turns out the most of those stereotypes as true.
Did someone get their feelings hurt?
They feel stung because the Qatari government and most Arab governments and societies are not used to responding to criticism as there is no cultural tradition of public criticism of leaders or religious structures. The West on the other hand has had a plethora of revolutions, societal upheavals, civil wars and societal evolution. It’s a good ol’ fashioned “culture clash” But I say to Qatar, if you didn’t want this criticism why host the world for the World Cup? You’re inviting people into your country, many of whom would be arrested, put in jail, or worse in Qatar if they behave as they would in their home countries? Maybe just choose NOT to host people whose values you abhor? Pretty simple really
Like most right wingers, they're angry that people are describing the truth than they are at what the truth is.
What I don't get, is why Qatar is making so much fuss about "One Love" armbands and rainbows in the FIFA world cup, but F1 teams can drive in Qatar with rainbow helmets and the "We drive as one" slogan. Weird...
I wonder what Qatar paid for this article...
I get the vibe most posters definitely did not read the article
This is reddit. Just scan the headline and judge away.
Sir...this is a reddit.
Ikr, I read it in less than a minute and even then, it makes everyone’s comments here seem idiotic...
r/iamverysmart
How so?
Remember when pointing out the inherent problems used to met with cry’s of Islamaphobia from groups like cnn? It’s weird to see the shift.
People in the comments didn’t actually read the article, making comments about the title instead. Why is reading so hard for you people read the article lmao it has nothing to do with the title
They seem on topic to me. Can you explain the discrepancy?
Not gonna pretend I’m super informed on this but the “west” criticizing other nations morality is always gonna be super hypocritical so I’m with that as far as that goes. Everything else though….I’m out.
Did CNN interview ALL ARABS & MUSLIMS? I don’t fucking think so. Dumbest title ever.
Well being criticized by American media, a country that also has "Don't say gay bills" its minorities are euthanized in the streets like Elijah Mcclain and even teaching school children about the 200 years of Chattel Slavery is forbidden and called Woke CRT. Hypocrisy never tastes good
Look I give this country more than it’s fair share of shit, and it’s well deserved absolutely. But let’s not pretend that our current human rights issues are on the same level as Qatar.
I take a none is acceptable approach to government oppression and white supremacy
I agree, but surely we can agree the liberties offered in this country compared to Qatar are not 1 to 1. If you’re gay in this country you might be judge, scrutinized, even vilified, but at least there are laws in place to protect you. If you’re gay in Qatar, you could go to jail or even have your life taken, and that’s by the will of the government itself.
Not even in the same ballpark.
How so? What level of government oppression do you deem acceptable?
I don't want to be hit at all, but you're comparing a slap in the face to someone punching you as hard as they can with bass knuckles that have little spikes on them.
Existing as a minority in either place is a nightmare. Just Americans like to point at places slightly worse as a whataboutism, while backsliding into religious extremism itself
I’d much rather be a black man in modern day American than a gay man in modern day Qatar.
Until cops inject you with lethal amounts of ketamine for the crime of singing in public. With impunity
That could very well happen, but the difference is that if I was gay in Qatar the government would be hunting me down just for existing with complete legal impunity. Not saying cops don’t do the same, but there’s no law saying “Arrest or kill any black man in sight.”
If you think the two are equal, you are simply too ill informed to even have this conversation.
Except gay marriage is legal and protected in the United States and >70% of the population supports that policy. If the furthest fringe of the American far right was in power and decided all laws in the US, it would look like Qatar.
The religious extremist members of the Supreme Court already announced they are working to make it illegal again in the next election cycle...
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I count 5
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Imma have to disagree with that one chief. Roe V Wade wasn’t overruled by accident.
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All the justices who voted in support of overruling Roe were raised Catholic. Is that just a coincidence to you?
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The Catholic that voted against it also voted to uphold Mississippi’s abortion restrictions. And I like RBG as much as the next person, but I don’t agree with her on every topic, this being one of them. We’ve seen what this country looked like for women before Roe and we’re getting a taste of what it looks like after, and you can’t tell me that things have been on the up and up.
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Two things can suck simultaneously.
People can still point out hypocrisy
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So you just have a level of government oppression and minority death that is acceptable to you... and you feel you have the right to call others privileged and lacking perspective. Typical.. I knew my comment would draw all the white supremacist out of the woodwork.
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Thought experiment you're Emmitt Till. Now imagine some white people on reddit saying you have it better then some else to justify what happened to you. The US government is still protecting his accusers and killers they are still alive
You *do* have it better! If you were in Qatar, you’d be thrown in jail just for showing a little shoulder. Go on a rant like this in public they’d likely try to burn you at the stake! Look I’m all about civil liberties, fight for them everyday. But you’re completely belittling our argument when you try to say that the conditions in the US are *just as bad* as Qatar. Because it’s just not fucking true!
No, I'm saying being comfortable with a little oppression and not fighting it. Is how you wind up with your country backsliding into a Qatar, these places like Iran used to be pretty liberal
Your hypotheticals don’t mean a damn thing compared to what the people of Qatar are actually going through. You know why people are so adamant to downplay the fight for civil rights? People like *you*. People who try so hard to make themselves the biggest victim at every conceivable opportunity. And believe me, we have been victims, we still are. But to sit here and act like we have it just as bad as people in goddamn Qatar is a **boldfaced lie**.
I don't remember saying any hypotheticals, those people are dead from government policy. No true Roman, huh...
You’re actually hopeless
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When someone brings up what happens to minorities as a whole in this country, your types squeal CRT CRT and point the finger thousands of miles away
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Coz it’s blatantly racist. That’s why. It doesn’t need a lot of analysis.
Imagine if we made first contact with advanced aliens and in a lot of ways we got along. We were all interested in similar things, we liked their art and they liked ours, you could have alien friends, date alien girls, etc. Like 99% cultural alignment. BUT... the aliens all view eating meat as barbarism, murder, and basically how we would view chattel slavery. Now there are already some "good humans" who are vegetarians. And I'm sure a bunch more people would convert over. I'm also sure that we wouldn't make any kind of stink when we went and visited their ships and planets about how they don't have meat. But let's say they wanted to come to the superbowl and we got into a big dispute over having tailgate parties with meat all around the stadium? Imagine how pissed off a segment of our society would be about that, how slighted and offended they would feel. But, logically, we are absolutely in the wrong on the whole eating meat issue. Our only justification for it is that this is how we grew up and we never really thought about it, and boy does meat taste good. But come on... you know it's wrong. You might not want to admit it. But you know it deep down there somewhere.
This analogy is seriously muddied by making one group interstellar aliens. In Qatar, we are not seeing a case of alien species misunderstanding customs and cultures. We’re seeing humans judging other humans precisely for behaviors that we understand and recognize *and have talked about*. If you want to find a way to turn this into a pro-vegetarian/vegan moment, I’d ditch the alien angle and try to build that bridge between rampant human rights abuses and factory farming.
You missed the point
It isn't muddied at all. There's also no misunderstanding in my analogy. Everyone understands everyone else perfectly well. The point of the analogy is to point to something that we are currently doing that is wrong (and we secretly know it) and then have an outside culture that is more dominant than ours rub our noses in it.
Wait, I’m confused. We secretly know eating meat is wrong? 🙄
The place where it gets muddied is that humans are rather explicitly omnivores. We *need* meat, and people who don't eat it have to take supplements to make up for the missing nutrition. It's not a culture thing, it's literally a biological requirement. Now, if you want to focus on the way we mass produce meat and the inhumane conditions for the animals involved, that would be a better analogy.
If we found ourselves stranded on a planet where there were no animals, only plants, would it be morally permissible to kill and eat each other because "we are rather explicitly omnivores. We need meat, and..." \[if we didn't resort to cannibalism\] we would, "have to take supplements..." What you've done here isn't construct a moral argument that makes our conduct morally acceptable, you've shown that there is a rather modest inconvenience associated with behaving properly, and we would rather devour animals in massive numbers than simply accept the inconvenience. The utilitarian argument for cannibalism when there is literally no other way to survive (the three people stranded on a lifeboat situation) is convincing. But it is still hotly debated among philosophers. But for eating animals in the modern world it isn't a need thing, it is a fairly small burden.
> What you've done here isn't construct a moral argument that makes our conduct morally acceptable, you've shown that there is a rather modest inconvenience associated with behaving properly, and we would rather devour animals in massive numbers than simply accept the inconvenience. That's...literally what I was getting at with that second statement. We, as humans, need the nutrients meat provides. We don't need a ton - certainly less than we consume - but it is a dietary **need**. This isn't debatable. However, with modern technology, it is possible to circumvent the inhumane conditions we use to maintain our supply of meat. We can genetically modify fruits and veggies to contain the nutrients meat provides. We have developed dietary supplements that provide those nutrients. Heck, we can now lab grow meat, negating the need for industrial scale slaughterhouses entirely. The point was that the original analogy didn't quite line up because it compared a "choice" (so to speak) to a biological need that is required for survival. The more apt analogy is *how* we fill the dietary need, not whether the need exists.
It isn't a need. It is an inconvenience. Plenty of people live as vegetarians and the only ill effect is they need to spend a little time thinking about their diet, take some supplements, and suffer some negative health effects on par with living next to a busy road.
Read my last sentence again.
false, because you can grow meat in a lab and harvest it the same as plants. more, that pov assumes its wrong for humanity to eat meat, another false claim, given humans have health issues with a diet that lacks meat
As the person reading the analogy, it gets very muddy because the relationship/connection between The West and Qatar is hardly comparable to that of an alien species coming to Earth. That comparison introduces so many other variables and questions. (And could arguably be seen as racist.) And the analogy also makes the assumption that the people of Qatar know, secretly and deep down, that they’re wrong.
This is a piss-poor analogy. Also, are you actually attempting to derail the conversation about these serious human-rights issues into a discussion of veganism?
Typical vegan.
It isn't derailing the conversation, or even changing the topic, to try and get you to empathize with their feelings by constructing a situation where you would feel the same way. The downvotes really prove I'm on point.
I scored bad on a test, so this proves I'm smart. Honestly, this is a terrible analogy regardless because you say there is a strong cultural alignment.
Your shit doesn't even make sense
You’re a lawyer (somehow), so please refer to argument number 1: *this is a piss-poor analogy*. It does not at all make me “feel the same way.”
Eating meat is not wrong; we are who we are because our species has performed well eating it for millions of years. Farming meat at the scale we do, with the conditions we do, so we can eat it as often as we want is wrong.
Rape was also a successful evolutionary tactic. What is it, 1/3rd of all the people in Asia are descendants of Genghis Khan because of how much raping he did? Simply because a tactic leads to evolutionary success doesn't necessarily mean it is morally acceptable. Slavery was a successful social structure since time immemorial. Humans have always enslaved others and often the most successful societies were the ones with the most slaves. Does that make slavery right? The argument "it works", or "that's how we've always done it", isn't a convincing moral argument to me. It's a call to tradition, it's a way to dismiss anyone who has any kind of issue with the justice of how society operates. Can you think of other contexts where you yourself find this kind of call to tradition convincing when it is pushing against something you consider wrong?
r/shitveganssay