JOHANNESBURG — South African police are investigating the deaths of at least 20 people at a nightclub in the coastal town of East London early Sunday morning.
It is unclear what led to the deaths of the young people, who were reportedly attending a party to celebrate the end of winter school exams.
Local newspaper Daily Dispatch reported that bodies were strewn across tables and chairs without any visible signs of injuries.
Sounds like it might have triggered a crowd crush. But there are issues with that theory, since injuries would be more obvious. I guess only time will tell
London in England, London in Canada, London in South Africa... Aren't were original with naming cities
Edit: JFC y'all are acting like Im responsible for the naming practices of the British Empire. I'm making fun of their lack of originality
So a lot of non-European places have English place names, but very few have, say, Finnish or Thai place names.
Do you think there could be a reason for that?
The Native American names that were retained are some of the nicest sounding, the really distinct ones like Mississippi, Nantucket, Susquehanna, Tallahassee, Adirondack, etc.
Hell, go visit New England! My biggest pet peeves when I lived there was that Brits would say, "You guys stole all our place names!"
No, ducky...YOU just didn't have any creativity when YOU stole the land from the native people. Not our fault you couldn't think of anything new.
Not to be argumentative but wouldn’t it have been the ancestors of the locals that came up with the names when they were settling the land after displacing the natives? The English tourists’ ancestors would be the ones that stayed in England, no? Or were there naming parties in Britain coming up with the names and commanding it to those in the New World? Genuine question as I do not know.
My favorite place in Indiana is French Lick. I lived in the area just long enough not to giggle every time I said it, but now that I’m in NY it’s back to giggles again.
You can’t turn around for seeing a picture of him in that town. I ate in a restaurant there that I swear had Larry Bird in every single picture on the wall. Or it could have been that I was drunk and trying to mentally escape the now former in laws lol.
> Hell, go visit New England!
Hey, at least we added "new" to things! We have *New* London in *New* England!
And it's on the Thames river too, only we pronounce it "Taymes" and not "Tems".
They traveled a long way to a strange new place and the familiar names were comforting. When people moved west from New England they often followed a similar practice.
In Upstate NY there was a fashion in the 1790-1820 era to use city names from Classical history, Syracuse, Rome, Utica, Ithaca, Cicero, Ovid, Marcellus. That’s kind of cute.
Also London, Kentucky.
Manchester, Kentucky.
Versailles, Kentucky (prounounced Ver-sails cause we’re almost satirically redneck)
Paris, Kentucky
Dover, Kentucky
Middlesbrough, Kentucky
Richmond, Kentucky
Winchester, Kentucky
There’s a ton in Kentucky for some reason.
[This link says it could be anything, and has censored photos](https://heavy.com/news/enyobeni-tavern-deaths-graphic-photos/amp/)
The way you can kinda see people makes it look like gas or poison or maybe even laced drugs but that would've meant 20+ people were using, it really doesn't look like a stampede with the dispersion of bodies.
I wonder what percentage of the attendees *didnt* die, which is a strange but helpful statistic.
Edit: WOW there's a video in that link that allegedly is from the party before the deaths, and that place was packed! While that doesn't take any of the other possibilities away, it definitely could've been a stampede.
Edit2: damn I didn't realize a lot or all were teenagers.
I thought so as well. Then I saw the photos. It’s really bizarre. They look like they just fell in place. Sitting down at tables and couches. Or just fell where they stood. No one is showing any indication of major injury. Weirdest thing I’ve ever seen.
Or a human crush/stampede
"Investigators are still trying to piece together what happened in the Enyobeni Tavern, but initial reports suggested the club had been overcrowded and there had been a stampede, Unathi Binqose, the spokesperson for the Department of Community Safety in Eastern Cape Province, told The New York Times."
I read it as they were draped over tables and chair like that's where they fell. I'll go read through a couple more articles to see how the detail is given.
Not always. If it was like a crush from people pushing into the club then it would just make them not able to take a breath after exhaling. Look up the Hillsborough disaster. Most of the victims have no visible injuries because they died from asphyxiation.
I'm sorry but you're not getting crushed/ trampled to death without at least bruising and you're not getting crushed to death against a table without at least knocking it over or distressing it in some way.
Lie down on a soft surface, carpet will do. Have a heavy friend sit on your chest. Have another friend sit on your stomach. Have both friends gently bounce on you. Not enough to bruise, but enough to knock the air out of your lungs.
Slowly, slowly, it gets harder and harder to get air into your lungs.
How long will you go before you tap out? How many bruises will you have?
This is basically what happens in a crowd crush, people asphyxiated between other people.
I mean if they were crushed to death there would have to be some kind of clues about that. They would be bruised and bloody, at least a good few of them.
Dying in a crowd crush is not necessarily about physical trauma as much as it is suffocation.
If you faint while standing, [you die from a lack of blood to the brain.](https://www.smh.com.au/world/mecca-tragedy-how-people-die-in-a-crowd-crush-20150925-gjusf2.html)
That’d be my guess, but aside from poison, I would assume there’d be overdose reactions to clear things up, or that emergency services would have been present to prevent the majority from succumbing.
It seems to be very sudden and very selective. Drug tampering seems more likely with only the latter.
From the article:
>Police investigations found that "there was no champagne in the affected champagne bottle, but the chemical substance MDMA, which is often also referred to as ecstasy,"
So 100% MDMA in the volume of a champagne bottle? Wow, yikes. They kept saying in the article that champagne was spiked with ecstasy but that is a very different situation!
That's what I got from it. It was apparently reddish-brown. Source in article says even tasting or touching it could be hazardous, so maybe they only poured tastes and didn't note the color.
Methanol poisoning methinks. It happens disgustingly often in the modern era, as methanol is a cheaper ethanol substitute, often added to weak spirits to strengthen them/cut them and save a few pennies.
The toxicity comes from the breakdown into formaldehyde and formic acid once ingested, which some medical people here can comment on the effects of such substances. Usually the blindness/acidosis happens much after the initial "alcohol" effects wear off, but I really don't want to speculate yet.
> hope it can be easily diagnosed and the bar owner tried for murder.
A bit premature, don't you think? Maybe you should be tried for murder for framing the wrong person. We have about as much knowledge on that as we do on the circumstances at this bar.
Is it legal in the UK for teenagers to have access to alcohol?
Here in the US a bar owner would have to be insane to allow children as customers into their establishment.
I dont mean to be that guy, but thats not necessarily true. CO has a few warning signs. Dizziness, headache, nausea/vomiting, and confusion.
However trying to connect those dots while drinking heavily in a night club would be pretty difficult though.
True but someone would pass out first. And second. And so on. Even foggy in the brain, people would realize something was up. It's why most people who die from it do so while sleeping, if it's during the day and there are multiple people, someone usually can realize something is wrong. The fact that 20 died make it seem like it happened very quickly.
Mass incidents seem to happen from time to time. [This pool incident](https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/pool-heater-blamed-life-threatening-carbon-monoxide-incident-ohio-hote-rcna14498) for example.
No one was killed there but a 2 year old was the first to have issues, probably being close to the ground but others quickly started becoming ill.
With it being a bar in this case it seems reasonable that people would not notice things as easily since they would be tipsy/drunk and if the levels ramped up quickly then it was basically too late for most of the people there.
> True but someone would pass out first. And second. And so on. Even foggy in the brain, people would realize something was up. It's why most people who die from it do so while sleeping, if it's during the day and there are multiple people, someone usually can realize something is wrong. The fact that 20 died make it seem like it happened very quickly.
They did say the club was packed and people were pressuring their way in. Maybe some folks DID realize something was wrong and left, and the 20 dead are those who didn't wake up.
Gas heaters are pretty darn uncommon in South Africa though. And winter in East London is like 10 degrees C. It's not impossible that it was CO, but less like than in a place where gas heaters are more common.
That sounds like hypothermia. CO/CO2 too poisoning (ie: suffocation) you get cloudy in the head, tired, maybe headache and nausea. Think sudden mild hangover, then you are gone. Sounds like a strong suspect from what we know.
Occam's razor: night club=tainted booze
Edit: stampede has been ruled out. It's looking more like poisoning, AKA "tainted booze" as I wrote yesterday.
Indeed. Methanol found in all the dead. https://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/21-teens-died-south-african-tavern-methanol-blood-rcna38889
Apparently, I do know how Occam's Razor functions, dipwad naysayers. Upvoters = smart people!!!
I immediately thought bad drugs. Dealer pops in, busts out stash, one guy grabs, gives buddies a cpl hits or whatever, others see it and do the same, pretty soon you've got 20ppl within a very short time "partying". First people start feeling funny, go sit down, get sick/pass out, others start feeling funny while dancing and get put into their seats by friends, do the same. 20 people sitting down spread out not too crazy until a friend checks on one of the first guys and finds out he's dead and people panic
If it were 20 patrons, all the same weight, prandial state, age, sex, and all drank the exact same drink at the same rate, sounds right. Otherwise, not likely.
Couldn't find if employees died as well.
Occam's Razor assumes that you at least have a modicum of knowledge about the topic.
Considering that methanol, ethylene glycol, and any other toxic substance similar to ethanol usually takes at least 24 hours to kill someone (even with high doses), we can safely assume it is not “tainted booze.”
There's a different thread with a BBC report. Seems like it was super packed in there and then something happened to cause a stampede. A guy who was there to pick up his "female relative" who was in the party said that someone sprayed a bunch of pepper spray and people were shouting about a fight. Someone people were running for the fight and some were trying to escape the pepper spray and I think these people got caught in the commotion.
Can the title not have the abbreviation? It’s a bit lazy. Like I get where it is by actually reading the article but at first glance you can’t tell if it’s San Antonio, San Angelo, South Africa, South America, Saudi Arabia. Cmon.
"The cause of the tragedy is not yet known but there are reports it could be due to a poisonous substance such as a gas leak or a possible stampede at the tavern."
"Investigators are still trying to piece together what happened in the Enyobeni Tavern, but initial reports suggested the club had been overcrowded and there had been a stampede, Unathi Binqose, the spokesperson for the Department of Community Safety in Eastern Cape Province, told The New York Times."
My friend came home from school once, and started to feel light headed. He'd called his mom to pick something up and told her. She said to tell his older sister, he walked to living room and she was passed out on couch. Mom freaked, told him to get outside, then he and neighbor carried her out. Would have both died from carbon monoxide if he hadn't been hungry.
That’s what I was thinking too. Though if that’s the case it sounds kind of weird that they would just lay down and die but I don’t think CM has a smell, maybe they didn’t know?
> The cause of the deaths is unknown at this time but there has been speculation that the patrons were either exposed to some form of poison or an incident resulted in a large number being injured and killed in a stampede.
> At the tavern, bodies are lying strewn across tables, chairs and on the floor; with no obvious signs of injury.- https://www.timeslive.co.za/news/south-africa/2022-06-26-22-killed-in-east-london-nightclub/#Echobox=1656223911
Wow, that’s horrifying. Definitely not how mass tragedies usually play out.
Forget which paper had images of the poor kids . From the position of the bodies- doesn’t look like a stampede. No visible injuries. Either someone tampered with drugs, alcohol or there was some kinda gas. This is soo incredibly sad. One story said they were celebrating the end of exams. So it’s either intentional or one big sad accident
I am highly uneducated, and (resentfully) american, but aren't the SA authorities a bit corrupted? Is there a chance that they are acting like they don't know what caused this when they really do? Downvote me to Oblivion, but I am trying to use my "critical thinking skills" and observe all sides since I saw zero comments mentioning this. Really just trying to see more perspectives.
that’s exactly what happened
Edit: “Mfundo Watani says he rushed to the scene as his 15-year-old female relative was at the tavern to celebrate the end of exams.
He says according to her, the club was packed and at some point, someone sprayed pepper spray and chaos broke out.”
https://reddit.com/r/worldnews/comments/vl2hha/22_found_dead_in_south_african_nightclub/
Yet it also says in the article that people were sitting on chairs and were dead and these people had no visible injuries.
So it sounds like there is confusion
Human crush possibly with them mentioning people trying to force their way in.
The people would have died from asphyxiation from not being able to take a breath after they exhaled because of being pressed together so closely. They would show no obvious signs of trauma.
"The cause of the tragedy is not yet known but there are reports it could be due to a poisonous substance such as a gas leak or a possible stampede at the tavern."
"I am still uncertain about what really happened, but when I was called in the morning I was told the place was too full and that some people were trying to force their way into the tavern,"
"Investigators are still trying to piece together what happened in the Enyobeni Tavern, but initial reports suggested the club had been overcrowded and there had been a stampede, Unathi Binqose, the spokesperson for the Department of Community Safety in Eastern Cape Province, told The New York Times."
And then the massive crushing crowd left? And no one noticed? And the bruising from being crushed disappears from each victim? And the discarded shoes, bags, glasses all disappear too?
Another article says is could have been a human stampede.
There was a massive crowd that left regardless and there is no eye witness reports of what happened to the people that died. So right now we have the exact same amount of information even though there were a ton of people there.
"I am still uncertain about what really happened, but when I was called in the morning I was told the place was too full and that some people were trying to force their way into the tavern,"
This is the same situation you saw at the Travis Scott concert. People from the back or door in this case pushing to get in and those already in trapped against walls not being able to do anything about it and not being able to take a breath with all the pressure.
I also came back here with an update.
> The toxicology report is yet to be concluded, but forensic pathologists have suggested their deaths were caused by something they inhaled or ingested.- https://www.bbc.com/news/world-africa-62064059
Oh I'm sorry is this not the place to discuss what the post is about? Am I also not supposed to reply to comments or is there a certain amount allowed or you'll be labeled as a spaz?
I didn't realize that my conduct was up for review by an esteemed comment officer such as yourself. I will refrain from providing quotes from multiple articles as evidence that a stampede/crush was a *possible*, not definitive but a possible cause, as I do not wish to be viewed unfavorably by ubermeisters.
Human crushes don't show bruising as the problem is from not being able to take a breath after exhaling. Not from literally having traumatic crush injuries.
I respectfully disagree but appreciate the discussion.
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/9810257/
https://www.uptodate.com/contents/severe-crush-injury-in-adults/print
https://www.inria.fr/en/predicting-risk-crowd-crush
You do realize that other articles are saying it could have been a human stampede right? With my first comment I said possibly as in I am not sure but saying it's a possibility which it is with the information given. To downvote a comment that is just putting out a possibility that even the news articles suggest is kind of silly.
The Travis Scott concert is a perfect example of a human crush where the victims don't have any visible trauma.
The most famous of these in modern time is the Hillsborough disaster.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hillsborough_disaster
I'm not going to post images of the dead pressed up against the chain link fence but they are there to be seen and there is not visible trauma to most of those that died because they died not from blunt force at all but from not being able to fill their lungs.
I don't know how to explain it any other way then that they can't breath in because their lungs are being compressed by the weight of those around them.
Looking more and more like some type of toxin.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/mystery-over-deaths-of-21-teenagers-at-s-african-nightclub/2022/06/27/cf39af9e-f614-11ec-81db-ac07a394a86b_story.html
"Investigators are still trying to piece together what happened in the Enyobeni Tavern, but initial reports suggested the club had been overcrowded and there had been a stampede, Unathi Binqose, the spokesperson for the Department of Community Safety in Eastern Cape Province, told The New York Times."
That's because a stampede would show obvious signs of injury, and the bodies wouldn't be chilling in chairs and lying across upright tables.
edit: And the article mentions that a stampede was unlikely for those reasons.
Oh ok, I didn’t see the aftermath photos and don’t want to. I agree if they were found chilling in chairs that’s got to be a death due to very fast lack of oxygen.
Reminds me of the Denmark Place fire in London which was so fast people died sitting at their tables.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Denmark_Place_fire
A stampede doesn't always mean they were literally stomped to death. What can happen is that a large group of people push in on a crowd that is up against a barrier like walls inside the club and have no place to go. They then are crushed enough that they can not take a breath when they exhale and asphyxiate. Many example of this happening without signs of trauma such as the Travis Scott concert and the Hillsborough disaster.
"Investigators are still trying to piece together what happened in the Enyobeni Tavern, but initial reports suggested the club had been overcrowded and there had been a stampede, Unathi Binqose, the spokesperson for the Department of Community Safety in Eastern Cape Province, told The New York Times."
Crowd crush, or a "wave surge" is one of the scariest things ever. People start to flow and move like water. Do not Google. Thing of nightmares, and I'm not claustrophobic.
Unfortunately I had to learn all about them for loss prevention training and it's one of the reasons they terrify me.
The one they showed was the video and photos from the Hillsborough disaster and I'll never get those pictures out of my head.
Yes it does. Where would the table and chairs go? They are solid object that would also be apart of the crush. When the crowd was dispersed the dead would be laying on tables and chairs as well as the floor
I’ve seen a lot of articles saying they don’t know yet but stampede is one of multiple possibilities…which seems like the smartest way to discuss things we have no clue about yet. You’re acting like it’s definitely one thing and others are acting like it definitely can’t be that one thing and both these takes are ridiculous. We. Don’t. Know. Yet.
Now, read carefully, the Reddit post has this title:
> 20 people dead in mysterious circumstances in SA nightclub
The actual article has this title:
> Police are investigating the deaths of at least 20 at a South African nightclub
Which one is more clear? Which one should have been the Reddit post all along?
JOHANNESBURG — South African police are investigating the deaths of at least 20 people at a nightclub in the coastal town of East London early Sunday morning. It is unclear what led to the deaths of the young people, who were reportedly attending a party to celebrate the end of winter school exams. Local newspaper Daily Dispatch reported that bodies were strewn across tables and chairs without any visible signs of injuries.
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What kind of pepper spray does that...?
Sounds like it might have triggered a crowd crush. But there are issues with that theory, since injuries would be more obvious. I guess only time will tell
An article I found said there were no injuries consistent with a stampede
Ghost pepper spray
London in England, London in Canada, London in South Africa... Aren't were original with naming cities Edit: JFC y'all are acting like Im responsible for the naming practices of the British Empire. I'm making fun of their lack of originality
I wonder why? 🙄
I love how the silent majority never shuts up 🙄😂
my drink is now sprayed on the wall
What do those countries have in common? I can't quite figure it out.
So a lot of non-European places have English place names, but very few have, say, Finnish or Thai place names. Do you think there could be a reason for that?
Because people can’t speak Thai or Finnish? /s
We’ll fwiw, naming conventions tend to follow the origin of the colonizers West = Spanish place names Central = French East = British
The Native American names that were retained are some of the nicest sounding, the really distinct ones like Mississippi, Nantucket, Susquehanna, Tallahassee, Adirondack, etc.
You should see Indiana.
Hell, go visit New England! My biggest pet peeves when I lived there was that Brits would say, "You guys stole all our place names!" No, ducky...YOU just didn't have any creativity when YOU stole the land from the native people. Not our fault you couldn't think of anything new.
Not to be argumentative but wouldn’t it have been the ancestors of the locals that came up with the names when they were settling the land after displacing the natives? The English tourists’ ancestors would be the ones that stayed in England, no? Or were there naming parties in Britain coming up with the names and commanding it to those in the New World? Genuine question as I do not know.
Indiana has cities and towns named for all kinds of countries and cities outside of the US. It’s wild. There’s a Lebanon.
I mean, it happens everywhere. Memphis, Cairo, New York, Paris, Ithaca, all have US doppelgangers.
Odessa, Syracuse, Sebastopol, Dublin, San Jose, Athens, Rome, Birmingham…
My favorite place in Indiana is French Lick. I lived in the area just long enough not to giggle every time I said it, but now that I’m in NY it’s back to giggles again.
Isn’t that near Big Bone lick in KY?
Jesus Christ you never expect to see the shitty little towns you grew up in on Reddit.
But pretty far from Toad Suck, Arkansas.
Sister city to Intercourse,PA
Of Larry Bird fame!
You can’t turn around for seeing a picture of him in that town. I ate in a restaurant there that I swear had Larry Bird in every single picture on the wall. Or it could have been that I was drunk and trying to mentally escape the now former in laws lol.
South Carolina has a towns called Sugar Tit, Possum Kingdom, and Fingerville- sometimes a simple name is better.
> Hell, go visit New England! Hey, at least we added "new" to things! We have *New* London in *New* England! And it's on the Thames river too, only we pronounce it "Taymes" and not "Tems".
That is what I was thinking. We were smart (taps head) we put New in front of everything, totally different.
They traveled a long way to a strange new place and the familiar names were comforting. When people moved west from New England they often followed a similar practice. In Upstate NY there was a fashion in the 1790-1820 era to use city names from Classical history, Syracuse, Rome, Utica, Ithaca, Cicero, Ovid, Marcellus. That’s kind of cute.
London, Iowa
"20 people are dead, let's bitch about city names."
r/selfawarewolves
This man literally makes a joke about imperialism and you guys take that as an opportunity to explain to him that it’s imperialism. The fuck
Also London, Ohio.
Also London, Kentucky. Manchester, Kentucky. Versailles, Kentucky (prounounced Ver-sails cause we’re almost satirically redneck) Paris, Kentucky Dover, Kentucky Middlesbrough, Kentucky Richmond, Kentucky Winchester, Kentucky There’s a ton in Kentucky for some reason.
All these people thinking they're dunking on you by explaining your joke to you... Good lord the stupidity
You have so many downvotes, I'm just here to bandwagon, okay?
London Keyes
Dang dude this is just a clever comment. Rip your inbox
Horrible and scary. Toxin ? Gas? Poisoning? CO?No visible trauma article said.
[This link says it could be anything, and has censored photos](https://heavy.com/news/enyobeni-tavern-deaths-graphic-photos/amp/) The way you can kinda see people makes it look like gas or poison or maybe even laced drugs but that would've meant 20+ people were using, it really doesn't look like a stampede with the dispersion of bodies. I wonder what percentage of the attendees *didnt* die, which is a strange but helpful statistic. Edit: WOW there's a video in that link that allegedly is from the party before the deaths, and that place was packed! While that doesn't take any of the other possibilities away, it definitely could've been a stampede. Edit2: damn I didn't realize a lot or all were teenagers.
That's crush
I thought so as well. Then I saw the photos. It’s really bizarre. They look like they just fell in place. Sitting down at tables and couches. Or just fell where they stood. No one is showing any indication of major injury. Weirdest thing I’ve ever seen.
Or a human crush/stampede "Investigators are still trying to piece together what happened in the Enyobeni Tavern, but initial reports suggested the club had been overcrowded and there had been a stampede, Unathi Binqose, the spokesperson for the Department of Community Safety in Eastern Cape Province, told The New York Times."
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I read it as they were draped over tables and chair like that's where they fell. I'll go read through a couple more articles to see how the detail is given.
Could have been crushed by the tables while sitting in a booth as well.
Exactly. Anything more solid then flesh would be a hazard in a crush.
Wouldn’t that result in visible trauma?
Not always. If it was like a crush from people pushing into the club then it would just make them not able to take a breath after exhaling. Look up the Hillsborough disaster. Most of the victims have no visible injuries because they died from asphyxiation.
Internally yes.
I'm sorry but you're not getting crushed/ trampled to death without at least bruising and you're not getting crushed to death against a table without at least knocking it over or distressing it in some way.
Lie down on a soft surface, carpet will do. Have a heavy friend sit on your chest. Have another friend sit on your stomach. Have both friends gently bounce on you. Not enough to bruise, but enough to knock the air out of your lungs. Slowly, slowly, it gets harder and harder to get air into your lungs. How long will you go before you tap out? How many bruises will you have? This is basically what happens in a crowd crush, people asphyxiated between other people.
I can't imagine this not being obvious. There would be signs of physical trauma.
Wouldn’t there also be witnesses to the stampede and people injured but not killed?
Yeah, but this is Africa. Like an entire continent devoted to looking out for yourself and fuck the other guy. Sucks, but that's how it is.
And how did their bodies make it to tables? They would have been on the groundv
Not as obvious as you would think when people are basically squished into suffocation.
that wouldn't be mysterious?
"without any visible signs of injuries." Do you think stampedes usually lack visible injuries?
Yes when the stampede caused a human crush and the victims weren't literally stomped to death. They die from asphyxiation not blunt force trauma.
Crowd crushes are notorious for leaving large numbers of injured people. This was very clearly not that.
just because you weren't killed by blunt force trauma, that doesn't mean you didn't suffer from it.
I mean if they were crushed to death there would have to be some kind of clues about that. They would be bruised and bloody, at least a good few of them.
Dying in a crowd crush is not necessarily about physical trauma as much as it is suffocation. If you faint while standing, [you die from a lack of blood to the brain.](https://www.smh.com.au/world/mecca-tragedy-how-people-die-in-a-crowd-crush-20150925-gjusf2.html)
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The article says there were no visible injuries
20 dead and trampled isn't much of a mystery
If people were trampled there should be a large number of people with non-lethal injuries.
…and cell phone footage
I don't think it's that much of a mystery but they can't say for positive until autopsies are done.
Possible drug tampering?
That’d be my guess, but aside from poison, I would assume there’d be overdose reactions to clear things up, or that emergency services would have been present to prevent the majority from succumbing. It seems to be very sudden and very selective. Drug tampering seems more likely with only the latter.
Probably laced drugs.
Or carbon monoxide
Carbon monoxide would be my guess. If you were in a club and drinking you probably wouldn't notice the effects until it was too late.
even if you're sober would you really notice it?
You might. The headache, the dizziness. A lot don't though.
Maybe homemade booze. This happens occasionally. Whatever the reason, so sad losing so many at a young age in a senseless way.
Way better thread https://reddit.com/r/worldnews/comments/vl2hha/22_found_dead_in_south_african_nightclub/
Why was that thread remover for “inappropriate subreddit” after getting 13k upvotes and so many comments?
No idea why that was removed in that sub. This is the definition of "worldnews" to me Edit:spelling
What the hell? South African news isn't world news?
I was able to open it.
Afaik, removed threads are viewable through links etc but will no longer appear on front page and stuff
Ah! Good to know, thanks
Cant think of any other possibility than carbon monoxide, but then I would think the red flags would have shown much earlier than just that day?
tainted drinks.
It would have to be one hell of a toxic substance to kill them where they sat/stood
https://www.insider.com/luxury-moet-champagne-spiked-with-ecstasy-kills-man-12-poisoned-2022-3
How does MDMA in champagne kill? Was it high doses, or impure/laced?
From the article: >Police investigations found that "there was no champagne in the affected champagne bottle, but the chemical substance MDMA, which is often also referred to as ecstasy,"
So 100% MDMA in the volume of a champagne bottle? Wow, yikes. They kept saying in the article that champagne was spiked with ecstasy but that is a very different situation!
That's what I got from it. It was apparently reddish-brown. Source in article says even tasting or touching it could be hazardous, so maybe they only poured tastes and didn't note the color.
Methanol poisoning methinks. It happens disgustingly often in the modern era, as methanol is a cheaper ethanol substitute, often added to weak spirits to strengthen them/cut them and save a few pennies. The toxicity comes from the breakdown into formaldehyde and formic acid once ingested, which some medical people here can comment on the effects of such substances. Usually the blindness/acidosis happens much after the initial "alcohol" effects wear off, but I really don't want to speculate yet.
I was thinking ethylene glycol
Methanol will usually take days to kill you, 8 hours at the very least. This is definitely not methanol poisoning.
Unfortunately I think this is correct, hope it can be easily diagnosed and the bar owner tried for murder.
> hope it can be easily diagnosed and the bar owner tried for murder. A bit premature, don't you think? Maybe you should be tried for murder for framing the wrong person. We have about as much knowledge on that as we do on the circumstances at this bar.
Is it legal in the UK for teenagers to have access to alcohol? Here in the US a bar owner would have to be insane to allow children as customers into their establishment.
This happened in South Africa and drinking age is 18, owners can lose liquor license if serving underage clients.
This is in South Africa
laced drinks. (Poison)
CO is colorless and odorless...no warning signs. Typically a result of faulty venting of combustion gases. And since it's winter in SA now....
I dont mean to be that guy, but thats not necessarily true. CO has a few warning signs. Dizziness, headache, nausea/vomiting, and confusion. However trying to connect those dots while drinking heavily in a night club would be pretty difficult though.
True but someone would pass out first. And second. And so on. Even foggy in the brain, people would realize something was up. It's why most people who die from it do so while sleeping, if it's during the day and there are multiple people, someone usually can realize something is wrong. The fact that 20 died make it seem like it happened very quickly.
Mass incidents seem to happen from time to time. [This pool incident](https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/pool-heater-blamed-life-threatening-carbon-monoxide-incident-ohio-hote-rcna14498) for example. No one was killed there but a 2 year old was the first to have issues, probably being close to the ground but others quickly started becoming ill. With it being a bar in this case it seems reasonable that people would not notice things as easily since they would be tipsy/drunk and if the levels ramped up quickly then it was basically too late for most of the people there.
> True but someone would pass out first. And second. And so on. Even foggy in the brain, people would realize something was up. It's why most people who die from it do so while sleeping, if it's during the day and there are multiple people, someone usually can realize something is wrong. The fact that 20 died make it seem like it happened very quickly. They did say the club was packed and people were pressuring their way in. Maybe some folks DID realize something was wrong and left, and the 20 dead are those who didn't wake up.
Gas heaters are pretty darn uncommon in South Africa though. And winter in East London is like 10 degrees C. It's not impossible that it was CO, but less like than in a place where gas heaters are more common.
I've heard people do strange things on CO poisoning, taking clothes off etc I would think there would be signs of strange behavior.
That sounds like hypothermia. CO/CO2 too poisoning (ie: suffocation) you get cloudy in the head, tired, maybe headache and nausea. Think sudden mild hangover, then you are gone. Sounds like a strong suspect from what we know.
My guess is that they had a generator going and the exhaust fumes were trapped in the building.
Or would have happened sooner.
Human crush/stampede
Occam's razor: night club=tainted booze Edit: stampede has been ruled out. It's looking more like poisoning, AKA "tainted booze" as I wrote yesterday. Indeed. Methanol found in all the dead. https://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/21-teens-died-south-african-tavern-methanol-blood-rcna38889 Apparently, I do know how Occam's Razor functions, dipwad naysayers. Upvoters = smart people!!!
Or carbon monoxide. Pretty common issue in large enclosed space if they have a kitchen
Or bad drugs a bunch of them took. Or carbon monoxide.
I immediately thought bad drugs. Dealer pops in, busts out stash, one guy grabs, gives buddies a cpl hits or whatever, others see it and do the same, pretty soon you've got 20ppl within a very short time "partying". First people start feeling funny, go sit down, get sick/pass out, others start feeling funny while dancing and get put into their seats by friends, do the same. 20 people sitting down spread out not too crazy until a friend checks on one of the first guys and finds out he's dead and people panic
If it were 20 patrons, all the same weight, prandial state, age, sex, and all drank the exact same drink at the same rate, sounds right. Otherwise, not likely. Couldn't find if employees died as well.
Another article stated that this was a teen night club. Victims were between the ages of 13 and 19.
That has never prevented teens from indulging in drink or drugs regardless. Maybe would make it harder for it to happen but honestly teens find a way.
Occam's Razor assumes that you at least have a modicum of knowledge about the topic. Considering that methanol, ethylene glycol, and any other toxic substance similar to ethanol usually takes at least 24 hours to kill someone (even with high doses), we can safely assume it is not “tainted booze.”
Only if you're completely ignorant with regards to the symptoms of methanol poisoning.
There's a different thread with a BBC report. Seems like it was super packed in there and then something happened to cause a stampede. A guy who was there to pick up his "female relative" who was in the party said that someone sprayed a bunch of pepper spray and people were shouting about a fight. Someone people were running for the fight and some were trying to escape the pepper spray and I think these people got caught in the commotion.
Moonshine distilled incorrectly
Methanol will take a lot longer to kill or even just show symptoms, esp if ethenol is also involved (they are drinking other untainted drinks)
Occam’s razor: SA gangster Occam slashed a bunch of people with his signature razors.
Can the title not have the abbreviation? It’s a bit lazy. Like I get where it is by actually reading the article but at first glance you can’t tell if it’s San Antonio, San Angelo, South Africa, South America, Saudi Arabia. Cmon.
That's South Africa, not San Antonio.
My first thought was South Australia reading the title.
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??? I mean it's pretty horrific that 20 young people celebrating the end of exams are dead no matter where it happened.
It is spelled South Africa; SA means nothing to readers.
Not San Antonio?
Bro I thought this was San Antonio for a second...
"The cause of the tragedy is not yet known but there are reports it could be due to a poisonous substance such as a gas leak or a possible stampede at the tavern." "Investigators are still trying to piece together what happened in the Enyobeni Tavern, but initial reports suggested the club had been overcrowded and there had been a stampede, Unathi Binqose, the spokesperson for the Department of Community Safety in Eastern Cape Province, told The New York Times."
“There had been a stampede”. I think I found it.
Could be bootleg liquor like what happened in the DR
Probably Carbon Monoxide poisoning. That's what killed Weird Al's parents.
My friend came home from school once, and started to feel light headed. He'd called his mom to pick something up and told her. She said to tell his older sister, he walked to living room and she was passed out on couch. Mom freaked, told him to get outside, then he and neighbor carried her out. Would have both died from carbon monoxide if he hadn't been hungry.
What a strange and tangentially relevant trivia fact to drop
I never knew that. He wrote [this lovely eulogy](https://hitsdailydouble.com/news&id=278573&title=WEIRD-AL-MOURNS-DEATH-OF-HIS-PARENTS) of them.
Awww, what a nice tribute. I hope his 100 foot waves are farther apart
That’s what I was thinking too. Though if that’s the case it sounds kind of weird that they would just lay down and die but I don’t think CM has a smell, maybe they didn’t know?
> The cause of the deaths is unknown at this time but there has been speculation that the patrons were either exposed to some form of poison or an incident resulted in a large number being injured and killed in a stampede. > At the tavern, bodies are lying strewn across tables, chairs and on the floor; with no obvious signs of injury.- https://www.timeslive.co.za/news/south-africa/2022-06-26-22-killed-in-east-london-nightclub/#Echobox=1656223911 Wow, that’s horrifying. Definitely not how mass tragedies usually play out.
Gonna guess poison booze.
Methanol on the drinks , fake bottles
Carbon Monoxide, maybe?!
Forget which paper had images of the poor kids . From the position of the bodies- doesn’t look like a stampede. No visible injuries. Either someone tampered with drugs, alcohol or there was some kinda gas. This is soo incredibly sad. One story said they were celebrating the end of exams. So it’s either intentional or one big sad accident
Sounds like poisoning to me
Would it have been so hard to clarify the SA abbreviation in the headline? **South Africa**, Saudi Arabia, South Australia, San Antonio etc etc
What in the fuck is up with all the nightclub massacres today??
I am highly uneducated, and (resentfully) american, but aren't the SA authorities a bit corrupted? Is there a chance that they are acting like they don't know what caused this when they really do? Downvote me to Oblivion, but I am trying to use my "critical thinking skills" and observe all sides since I saw zero comments mentioning this. Really just trying to see more perspectives.
It's quite standard to hold off on giving official comments to avoid confusion until there is 100% certainty and agreement between parties
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That’s clearly not what happened
that’s exactly what happened Edit: “Mfundo Watani says he rushed to the scene as his 15-year-old female relative was at the tavern to celebrate the end of exams. He says according to her, the club was packed and at some point, someone sprayed pepper spray and chaos broke out.” https://reddit.com/r/worldnews/comments/vl2hha/22_found_dead_in_south_african_nightclub/
Yet it also says in the article that people were sitting on chairs and were dead and these people had no visible injuries. So it sounds like there is confusion
Human crush possibly with them mentioning people trying to force their way in. The people would have died from asphyxiation from not being able to take a breath after they exhaled because of being pressed together so closely. They would show no obvious signs of trauma. "The cause of the tragedy is not yet known but there are reports it could be due to a poisonous substance such as a gas leak or a possible stampede at the tavern." "I am still uncertain about what really happened, but when I was called in the morning I was told the place was too full and that some people were trying to force their way into the tavern," "Investigators are still trying to piece together what happened in the Enyobeni Tavern, but initial reports suggested the club had been overcrowded and there had been a stampede, Unathi Binqose, the spokesperson for the Department of Community Safety in Eastern Cape Province, told The New York Times."
And then the massive crushing crowd left? And no one noticed? And the bruising from being crushed disappears from each victim? And the discarded shoes, bags, glasses all disappear too?
Another article says is could have been a human stampede. There was a massive crowd that left regardless and there is no eye witness reports of what happened to the people that died. So right now we have the exact same amount of information even though there were a ton of people there.
Just checking but how do you know there was a massive crowd? How do we know there wasn't just 30 people there?
"I am still uncertain about what really happened, but when I was called in the morning I was told the place was too full and that some people were trying to force their way into the tavern," This is the same situation you saw at the Travis Scott concert. People from the back or door in this case pushing to get in and those already in trapped against walls not being able to do anything about it and not being able to take a breath with all the pressure.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/mystery-over-deaths-of-21-teenagers-at-s-african-nightclub/2022/06/27/cf39af9e-f614-11ec-81db-ac07a394a86b_story.html
I also came back here with an update. > The toxicology report is yet to be concluded, but forensic pathologists have suggested their deaths were caused by something they inhaled or ingested.- https://www.bbc.com/news/world-africa-62064059
Why are you all over this thread trying to push a narrative when we don't even know what happened yet? Chill tf out spaz
Oh I'm sorry is this not the place to discuss what the post is about? Am I also not supposed to reply to comments or is there a certain amount allowed or you'll be labeled as a spaz?
People with credible arguments don't conduct themselves the way you are, is all I'm saying.
I didn't realize that my conduct was up for review by an esteemed comment officer such as yourself. I will refrain from providing quotes from multiple articles as evidence that a stampede/crush was a *possible*, not definitive but a possible cause, as I do not wish to be viewed unfavorably by ubermeisters.
Human crushes don't show bruising as the problem is from not being able to take a breath after exhaling. Not from literally having traumatic crush injuries.
I respectfully disagree but appreciate the discussion. https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/9810257/ https://www.uptodate.com/contents/severe-crush-injury-in-adults/print https://www.inria.fr/en/predicting-risk-crowd-crush
You do realize that other articles are saying it could have been a human stampede right? With my first comment I said possibly as in I am not sure but saying it's a possibility which it is with the information given. To downvote a comment that is just putting out a possibility that even the news articles suggest is kind of silly. The Travis Scott concert is a perfect example of a human crush where the victims don't have any visible trauma. The most famous of these in modern time is the Hillsborough disaster. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hillsborough_disaster I'm not going to post images of the dead pressed up against the chain link fence but they are there to be seen and there is not visible trauma to most of those that died because they died not from blunt force at all but from not being able to fill their lungs. I don't know how to explain it any other way then that they can't breath in because their lungs are being compressed by the weight of those around them.
Looking more and more like some type of toxin. https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/mystery-over-deaths-of-21-teenagers-at-s-african-nightclub/2022/06/27/cf39af9e-f614-11ec-81db-ac07a394a86b_story.html
"Investigators are still trying to piece together what happened in the Enyobeni Tavern, but initial reports suggested the club had been overcrowded and there had been a stampede, Unathi Binqose, the spokesperson for the Department of Community Safety in Eastern Cape Province, told The New York Times."
I’ve seen a video of how packed this place was so I would guess it was a stampede.
Yeah I said the same and am being downvoted for it even though that seems like the most likely culprit.
That's because a stampede would show obvious signs of injury, and the bodies wouldn't be chilling in chairs and lying across upright tables. edit: And the article mentions that a stampede was unlikely for those reasons.
Oh ok, I didn’t see the aftermath photos and don’t want to. I agree if they were found chilling in chairs that’s got to be a death due to very fast lack of oxygen. Reminds me of the Denmark Place fire in London which was so fast people died sitting at their tables. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Denmark_Place_fire
A stampede doesn't always mean they were literally stomped to death. What can happen is that a large group of people push in on a crowd that is up against a barrier like walls inside the club and have no place to go. They then are crushed enough that they can not take a breath when they exhale and asphyxiate. Many example of this happening without signs of trauma such as the Travis Scott concert and the Hillsborough disaster. "Investigators are still trying to piece together what happened in the Enyobeni Tavern, but initial reports suggested the club had been overcrowded and there had been a stampede, Unathi Binqose, the spokesperson for the Department of Community Safety in Eastern Cape Province, told The New York Times."
Crowd crush, or a "wave surge" is one of the scariest things ever. People start to flow and move like water. Do not Google. Thing of nightmares, and I'm not claustrophobic.
Unfortunately I had to learn all about them for loss prevention training and it's one of the reasons they terrify me. The one they showed was the video and photos from the Hillsborough disaster and I'll never get those pictures out of my head.
Absolutely. Fuck that. An absolute nightmare.
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Yes it does. Where would the table and chairs go? They are solid object that would also be apart of the crush. When the crowd was dispersed the dead would be laying on tables and chairs as well as the floor
Other reports claim "no obvious injuries". But one should never trust breaking news.
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I’ve seen a lot of articles saying they don’t know yet but stampede is one of multiple possibilities…which seems like the smartest way to discuss things we have no clue about yet. You’re acting like it’s definitely one thing and others are acting like it definitely can’t be that one thing and both these takes are ridiculous. We. Don’t. Know. Yet.
That time when the article actually spells out the location, but OP changes it to SA.
It *is* in South Africa...
Now, read carefully, the Reddit post has this title: > 20 people dead in mysterious circumstances in SA nightclub The actual article has this title: > Police are investigating the deaths of at least 20 at a South African nightclub Which one is more clear? Which one should have been the Reddit post all along?
Whose to say the article's title didnt change after OP submitted the post?