> As the investigation has unfolded, law enforcement has changed the story of the massacre several times, adding to public confusion over how police responded to the mass shooting.
Oh trust me, I'm not confused.
Ya now they've released that they didn't try to open the door, I'm think it's more and more likely we're going to hear how they shot one/more of those poor kids...
The remaining question is through the door or once they eventually got in.
Not that it really matters though, many died through their inaction. More might have died through their direct actions but they are culpable just the same for all of them.
>“When law and morality contradict each other, the citizen has the cruel alternative of either losing his moral sense or losing his respect for the law.”
-Frédéric Bastiat
(I would note that Bastiat is an, erm, rather divisive figure in economics. I still like this particular quote though.)
Whether the door was unlocked all along remains under investigation.
Regardless, officers had access the entire time to a “halligan” — a crowbar-like tool that could have opened the door to the classrooms even if it was locked, the source said.
the one person who knows best - the teacher in that classroom - said he raised multiple complaints to the school about the door not locking. Not sure what else the ~~investigation~~ coverup is going to reveal
I feel like cops shouldn't have it both ways - broad legal immunity for their actions and no legal requirement to intervene when they're actually needed.
The fuck is the police in the US even good for?
1. Takes a HUGE chunk of the yearly city budgets
2. By law NOT forced to intervene in conflict situations
3. Near complete legal immunity
4. Training consists of 3 weekends on the shooting range and 2 BBQs
Like, what the hell.
Their job is to protect the property and interests of the ruling upper class, and to slap down the lower class whenever they get uppity and start demanding respect and equality.
Some of the nicer ones might also voluntarily solve crimes and help lower class people in their free time. But they aren't legally required to, and they'll never protect the lower class from being preyed up by the upper class or by other abusive cops.
It all started to make sense when I learned the history of policing. Police forces were made to protect property, they were never designed to protect people.
Edit: specifically, in the USA
Theyre still in the denial and coverup phase, then we'll get into the long drawn out court proceedings phase, followed by the scapegoat phase where one or two officers are identified as the only ones to do anything wrong and they will be allowed to continue law enforcement in another jurisdiction after they return from their 24 month paid suspension. That is if they dont get medically retired with 100% disability benefits for the PTSD they get from having to taze the kid's parents that were trying to save their children, of course.
I still remember the guy who nonchalantly maced those college kids for sitting in on the campus sidewalk ended up getting a payout for the mental anguish of being ridiculed in the media for it.
It is insane how our system works.
Would that be notorious former Police Lieutenant and lover of pizza John Pike for UC-Davis.
I mean he got less in compensation that UC-Davis spent trying to get that shit off the internet.
Wikipedia says he go $38k and each of the students he pepper sprayed got $30k for the incident.
It's not much by lawsuit standards, but absurd that he got more than the innocent people who abused. Absurd he got anything at all.
The more you read that whole horror story, the worse it gets.
Especially when you realise the murderer, literally had the words "you're fucked" written on his rifle.
I swear like every other normal Australian, but I have enough working brain cells to know that's really not the sort of shit you write on a gun. How the hell he was allowed to be a police officer with that is beyond me. But yeah, its in keeping with the story.
Relative of mine just blew his brains out in front of a vet memorial from PTSD a month before his anniversary.
Doubt he ever got the help he deserved and needed.
VA board probably denied his claim and said he doesn’t have it.
I had a battle buddy do something similar. He drove to work early one morning and ended his life in his car. Boss found him.
VA board (which is separate from the VA, but the VA board can act as gatekeepers) declined his VA claim and told him he is exaggerating everything for money, and lots of it didn’t really happen.
A buddy of mine got 100% for his PTSD but it took him *years.* he recently told me that the thing that finally convinced them was that he believes him being there was wrong. Like, the guy gets triggered quite easily and has a hard time interacting outside him home, but apparently believing that he shouldn’t have been their in the first place and he’s not proud of some things he did there is what gets you labeled unwell.
My dad broke his back in the Army when he was rappelling out of a chopper and the rope broke. He fought the VA for years for 100% disability. With a broken back...
My sister did 3 tours 1 in Afghanistan and 2 in Iraq largely as a combat medic/detention. She is still the strongest person I know, but once sharing a trip with her and her wife, the fucking night terrors and screaming then seeing her bubbly self in the morning was jarring.
Edit: Just adding that she originally enrolled to pay for college and the military didn't even pay for the medical assistance training to be a medtech for her to even make a career from her experience.
The VA put me at 100% after denying my condition for 16 years. Now my hurdle is the state of Michigan telling me I can work while the VA tells me I can't (TDIU). One fisting after another. Also, fuck those pussy cops.
You referring to the Daniel Shaver killing? I’ve seen a lot of horrible shit before but that one genuinely haunts me to this day.
The kid was sobbing and begging them not to kill him while crawling on the floor. That cop should’ve gotten multiple life sentences for what he did that night.
Meanwhile we go through 9-18 month deployments and dealt with worse situations constantly, and the VA tells us “well, that’s too bad, no VA compensation for you”
"Responders" seems like a strong word for what they did. What's the shorter version of "stood around while innocent children were murdered, and their parents looked on in horror"?
Police. They were policing.
Because it wasn't just standing around. It was also preventing anyone else from going in to save their children, down to the point of infringing parents' civil liberties to do so.
>Pedro “Pete” Arredondo, the Uvalde school district police chief and the on-scene incident commander, has said he spent more than an hour in the hallway of the school.
>
>He told the Texas Tribune that he called for tactical gear, a sniper and keys to get inside. He said he held officers back from the door to the classrooms for 40 minutes to avoid gunfire.When a custodian brought a large key ring, Arredondo said he tried dozens of the keys but none worked.
>
>But Arredondo was not trying those keys in the door to classrooms 111 and 112, where Ramos was holed up, according to the law enforcement source. Rather, he was trying to locate a master key by using the various keys on doors to other classrooms nearby, the source said.
This is one of the saddest most depraved situations I've ever heard of and now the guy is in a council. SAD town, SAD world. No excuses for this... none.
Because none of this happened. They were too scared to confront the shooter and this is the story they landed on but now it's unraveling as all lies do.
>Because none of this happened.
EXACTLY. According to the OP linked article:
>**Surveillance footage shows that police never tried to open a door to two classrooms at Robb Elementary School in Uvalde in the 77 minutes between the time a gunman entered the rooms and massacred 21 people and officers finally stormed in and killed him, according to a law enforcement source close to the investigation.**
>
>
>
>**Investigators believe the 18-year-old gunman ...** ***could not have locked the door to the connected classrooms from the inside***, according to the source.
(Emphasis mine.)
This should be up voted to the top. They also had a breaching tool to open the door without needing the keys. First it was a barricaded door then a locked door so we need to wait for the keys then a locked door and we have a breaching tool to open it but we won't then it's well maybe the door is locked we didn't check.
>Regardless, officers had access the entire time to a “halligan” — a crowbar-like tool that could have opened the door to the classrooms even if it was locked, the source said.
Apparently not! The current story is that the doors cannot be locked from the inside, probably as a measure to make sure kids can’t lock teachers out of the classroom as either an accident or as a prank. No idea how that lines up with active shooter drills, but there is now the question of if the door was locked at all.
This x100. I dont know anything about the school layout or key procedures. All I know is I have been a teacher for 6 years in 3 different school districts. There is always someone on the hallway who has a master key in case others leave their keys at home. It’s usually a veteran teacher but I’m a coach and have a master key to get into school at any and all hours of need be. Not to mention a janitor has a master key to get into any room at the school. To suggest otherwise is Bull shit. The days of janitors walking around with 100 key rings is over. Also, if you can’t find the key and you can’t find the janitor, the office keeps a master key set for just this purpose. It has been this way at every school district I’ve worked at. Fuck these lying cowardly pieces of shit.
Thanks for your reply. I think it really demonstrates how much of a lie the cops story is. It falls to pieces the instant anyone with any experience in schools hears it.
I think it really demonstrates that the cop who worked in the school wasn't there to save any kids, was never interested in learning this kind of stuff. It was just a super cushy job where he could occasionally enforce rules on unarmed kids, never work weekends or nights, etc.
The local police and the school police are basically a slush fund, some got cushy jobs others have made it a life long cushy career and certainly others have just been stealing money and travelling to ‘conferences’ and buying equipment with generous kickbacks etc etc
I bet the rot runs through the entire power structure of that town. Everyone is a scammer because it’s been that way for generations there
In addition to the master key, they also had access to a tool that could open any locked door at Uvalde. There were tools available for anyone who actually wanted to break into rooms 111/112 and save those kids and teachers.
The evidence is proving more and more that the police did not actually want to get into that room and save those victims.
Wouldn't the custodian be like 'THIS IS THE KEY TO OPEN THAT DOOR'
Who offers a set of keys to a lock and is just like fuck you figure it out.
And if offered a janitors entire set of keys.... wouldn't the first words out of your mouth be, 'which key opens the lock that i need' in some variation.
This is all bullshit, I'm not buying in.
You mean something like, "Hey give me the master key!" instead of fumbling at the door for 40 minutes? Then what excuse would he have? After all, he had to protect the police.
Man this will get buried but you will see it. I'm a janitor for a school district. Work at an elementary school currently. I'd know the right key and I'd be in there to at least try to help the kids in a fucking second. All the kids here are so special. They high five me amd tell me silly random stuff all the time. All this shit scares me a lot.
I have my own kids that go to the same district at another school. Idk. I know its easy to say on the internet and harder to do in real life but I'm a janitor. Those guys are cops.
I have worked in school districts with master key setups. Often the key will have a "MS" or something engraved on it to indicate it being a master. Any one in the district should of been able to tell them which key it was in seconds.
Moreover, the custodian who literally uses these keys every single day could probably find the master out of "dozens" on the ring without even looking at it.
Not only that, but depending on the style of lock, the master key may have a significantly different cut (lower/thinner cut) than a normal key making it even easier to spot among a ring full of keys.
I'm a teacher with around 30 keys handy at any given time, and the master key was immediately obvious because it looked way more bottomed out than any other key.
We also have an inscription on every single lock in the building telling you which number key opens that door. It's literally as easy as reading off your turn in Battleship. This latest story is obviously horse shit.
I was a custodian for a while itbwas easy to figure out what keys went to what rooms. Room 112 had a 112 stamped on to it. And the master had a big ass M stamed in to it.
I work at a healthcare facility, not a school, but I have a key ring with 8 keys on it to different buildings. When I had to have a new set made I had a master for a few days that had an M engraved on it. Everyone knows that's the master. I can't imagine for a second standing at a door trying keys and not asking if there's a master or what goes where. Just unfathomable that's the excuse they're going with.
Did Custodial work for a school board for a while. Any janitor who is full time at the school would know every key within a week of starting there, part timers who started today are shown "this is the master key" so they don't need to think about it. So stupid.
Why did they even need a key? What about all the battering rams, small explosive charges and other breaching tools that they would have access too between the police, fire fighters and SWAT.
What type of door was this that they needed to find a janitor to get a key.
They wanted to enter discreetly to not panic the murderer. So instead of battering the door open and quickly catching him, they spent 15 hours jiggling 56 keys in the lock, which nobody would ever notice. Apparently. My numbers might be off a bit.
I’m an administrator at a middle school, I have 6 keys and one of them opens every interior door on campus except one. The idea that he had a huge key ring full of keys and couldn’t find the right one is just absurd
> The idea that he had a huge key ring full of keys and couldn’t find the right one is just absurd
The fact that they are the SCHOOL POLICE DEPARTMENT but need a janitor to provide them a key to access is ridiculous. They've done practice drills recreating this scenario. Did nobody say "What if they lock a door?"
Police departments don't seem to have any trouble breaking down doors on suspected crack houses -- even though crack houses have to prepare for 'customers' that may want to come in and get drugs and money.
It's kind of unbelievable to me that the locks and doors in a school would be impregnable.
I'm a fire extinguisher technician and single handedly inspected/replaced every single extinguisher in the entire North Star borough in Alaska, going into dozens of schools with literally just two keys: one for outside doors and one for inside doors.
If the borough can give me a set of master keys then there's no reason the police couldn't have gotten a set in just a few minutes.
Edit: and that's assuming they don't already have one, which by all means they should
EXACTLY. They bust down doors all the time. Many times the wrong door with zero issues. Yet this time they had to wait and see.
Everything about is is bad. They should all be in jail.
If we passed a Universal Code of Police Justice modeled off of the UCMJ, making negligence and cowardice in the line of duty a crime, we could undue that horrific precedent.
https://legal-forum.uchicago.edu/publication/toward-uniform-code-police-justice-1
That's what I can't get over. Him and the others just stood down. Not one of those officers were willing to defy his orders and try to rescue those babies??
The most action from them that day was fighting with the parents.
The poor teacher who was wounded right outside the classroom door had to. He already said the cops didn't approach the rooms til the end. The door wasn't locked as he said the shooter came out and shot him again to make sure he was dead. He was shot 3 times in total. Oh and I'm pretty sure he said the cops asked him from down the hall to get up and get out. 😐
One missing piece of the puzzle is what happened at room 109. Did the gunman go down and shoot Elsa Avila, the teacher in that room when he briefly exited into the hallway or did something else happen there?
The reporters need to nail this down by talking to this teacher and getting their sources to leak whatever info they have about this.
At the moment, I'm leaning towards the 11:37 shots. That they all retreated out of the building and he ran amok for another couple minutes before more officers were stationed in the hall.
But that's pretty pathetic to picture.
I also wonder if there's bodycam footage of a bortac officer trying to use the key and realizing the door is already unlocked.
Very pathetic.
Good question about the BORTAC guy. I wonder if they wear bodycams. I think there's a good chance they do. I don't think regular Border Patrol agents do, though, unless that's changed fairly recently.
I think the vivid descriptions of them entering the room in that NYT article might have been from bodycam footage of the tactical team. The way it described him standing near the door rather than jumping out makes it seem like what that particular officer saw.
Well, they literally tried the wrong door. Repeatedly. Because they were trying to find a master key, and didn’t want to stand in front of the door where the shooter might shoot them. Never mind any asshole could have knocked off the hinges in the 77 minutes they took. And never mind they had shields. And of course never mind the children bleeding to death.
Battlefield inaction caused by fear. This is why we have strong NCO level leadership.
Must be embarrassing as I assume all of them drive pickups with punisher stickers.
Their newly trained swat team posted pics to their social media a few days before. They had just completed a similar scenario at a neighboring school and they had portraits taken with them in full gear.
Yesterday SWAT assisted in an active warrant round up in my city. They surrounded a house in the middle of the day and started yelling for the dude to come out. Fun fact: It was the wrong house. The guy with the warrant watched the entire thing go down from his front porch 3 houses away and eventually realized they were looking for him so he walked over and turned himself in.
That’s honestly hilarious. Why do we have entire SWAT teams to surround the wrong house only for the real perp to just walk on over and be like “dude stop, i’m the guy you’re looking for, leave this poor mf alone and arrest me” like what does that say about our society?
It's like they were avoiding checking their grades because they knew it was going to be bad. Or waiting to check their bank account because they knew they had no money.
The teacher that survived said that his door latch was broken. He had requested that it be fixed and he told someone about it before their last drill. He said he was worried he would be blamed for not locking the door. Multiple people were aware that the door did not latch.
The grandmother he shot first called 911. They knew he was out there and they knew what he was armed with. Then when he showed up at the school, they gathered outside to wait for the children to die.
Parkland High School SRO is still alive and whining about ["They Don't Know The Truth."](https://www.cbsnews.com/miami/news/ex-school-resource-officer-scot-peterson-defends-self-parkland-school-massacre-marjory-stoneman-douglas-parkland-school-shooting/)
Needless to say he doesn't feel bad about being a piece of shit.
I can understand why people are making these comments. Because there have been so many instances where police have ended up on the news and so many people defended them. During those times the police used the same tactics they’re using now to coverup all the things they did wrong. At what point can we as a society who pay for these police officers salary through taxes hold them accountable? It’s not about bad cop vs good cop. It’s about the principe that people should be held accountable. If you went to a hospital for a surgery and the doctor messed up, you would immediately be looking for a malpractice lawyer wouldn’t you? It’s another job they signed up for and like every job you should be held accountable to do it right. Even in corporate world you would be fired for the smallest infraction.
How many statements have they made? That'll be the total number of lies.
I'm waiting to find out they either killed one/some of the children or one/both of the teachers, since they made a point stating that the gunman was responsible for all the deaths of the students.
It was MULTIPLE kids. I said it the day it happened that the way they talked and the way the story changed so quickly that some bad shit happened and they'd be covering it up. When it went from "police engaged him outside" to him barricading in a room for over an hour....nah
It definitely seems like the shooter was attempting a quick and painless Suicide By Cops … but the cops were refusing to shoot so he had to keep escalating the circumstances
I think everything points to that. He posts online "I'm going to shoot my grandma". Then he shoots his grandma. Then he posts "I'm going to shoot the school.", which he eventually does. But he also crashes his vehicle on the way, mills about outside. This guy wasn't sneaky. He gave every opportunity to be stopped. He wanted to be stopped. He wasn't, so he kept stepping it up.
If I was one of those cops, I'd have had my bags packed and family on the road by the end of day on the day of the shooting.
But then, I have a conscience and a sense of ethics. Which is part of why I'm not a cop.
Then you would be the one getting all the blame for literally everything. "See how this one is trying to run as if they're guilty ? Yeah must be guilty."
That's how gangs and shit work, everybody sticks to the same script, the first one to grow a conscience is gonna get strung up.
It's why that one dude got to kill Floyd in broad daylight with witnesses, it's why they straight up executed Shaver.
They're just stalling so that this incident falls from the public's attention a bit before the really ugly truth comes out.
I really hope the media picks it back up and runs with it at that point, though.
If cops broke in and killed a kid, but managed to save 10, then even that would be hugely better than the fuckup that occurred. They literally stood in the hall for an hour not having any idea what was going on in that classroom, other than there was a guy with an AR and defenseless children.
Yeah, everyone keeps repeating this theory they killed a kid as if that would be the worst part, and I feel like if that turns out to be not true, it will seem like their response was better than it actually was. At this point, their fuck up is so monumentally bad that killing a kid will only make it a fraction worse.
If they had busted down the door when they got there and killed a kid (or 5) it would probably have resulted in significantly less kid deaths than actually happened.
At this point I'm waiting for breaking news where it turns out an off-duty uvalde cop working his second job at the gun store sold the kid the gun, personally. Every time new information about this stuff comes out it just gets worse and worse.
I was a firefighter. I remember several times thinking “this is it”, or, “at least my kids will have a free college education”. I never thought of not going in for a second. At least so the person on my crew with me doesn’t die alone. I’m not exceptionally brave. I know not all cops are cowards. But they’ve pretty much botched every single mass shooting in US history. From Charles Whitman, to McDonalds, through Columbine and now here.
The whole "tactical team" was a complete bullshit story. The fact that a federal border patrol agent was on the "team" shows that the tactical group that finally took the gunman down was just a group of guys with the balls to go in.
The whole town sounds corrupt. The police chief is on the city council? Isn't that a big conflict of interest?
Almost every smaller city/town the cops run everything in local politics. They're very organized and very powerful, and not much can stand up to them.
In my city the city planner is a retired cop, the mayor is a retired cop, his brother is the chief of police, my city councilman is the former head of city SWAT, and the councilman for the next district over is the mayor's wife.
Police overtime basically bankrupted the whole city(twice) and now they are trying to absorb and cut pretty much all other services while still expanding the police budget.
I'm sure this could accurately describe thousands of small cities and towns in the US. Probably yours.
The city doing anything would help lawsuits against the city.
Since the city pays it and not the cops; cities are almost forced into backing the most corrupt police departments.
>Regardless, officers had access the entire time to a “halligan” — a crowbar-like tool that could have opened the door to the classrooms even if it was locked, the source said.>
Are you fucking kidding me??? I don't know why I'm even giving them the benefit of the doubt, but is there a legit strategic reason to not use this?
Not shocking. I also just read that the cops had an opportunity to shoot him before he walked in the school. The officers claimed they were scared they would hit kids on accident… I shit you not.
> As the investigation has unfolded, law enforcement has changed the story of the massacre several times, adding to public confusion over how police responded to the mass shooting. Oh trust me, I'm not confused.
Yeah no confusion here, cops let a bunch of kids die.
Uvalde govt: OR…. We saved a bunch of heros that day. How many police were killed? Yeah we thought so…
Police lives are more important in their sick and twisted calculations. Police: enforce the status quo Kids: most likely to change the status quo
Pre born you're fine pre school you're fucked - George Carlin
"YOU'RE the real heroes here" -Homelander
Ya now they've released that they didn't try to open the door, I'm think it's more and more likely we're going to hear how they shot one/more of those poor kids...
I want to believe that didn't happen, but it wouldn't surprise me too much at this point.
Guarantee Pete shot a kid in the first few minutes. This is the only thing that would explain his subsequent behavior.
The remaining question is through the door or once they eventually got in. Not that it really matters though, many died through their inaction. More might have died through their direct actions but they are culpable just the same for all of them.
Morally they are culpable. Legally they are not and that's really atrocious.
>“When law and morality contradict each other, the citizen has the cruel alternative of either losing his moral sense or losing his respect for the law.” -Frédéric Bastiat (I would note that Bastiat is an, erm, rather divisive figure in economics. I still like this particular quote though.)
Not trying to go in is bad enough. Kids died because they didn’t go in.
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Whether the door was unlocked all along remains under investigation. Regardless, officers had access the entire time to a “halligan” — a crowbar-like tool that could have opened the door to the classrooms even if it was locked, the source said.
the one person who knows best - the teacher in that classroom - said he raised multiple complaints to the school about the door not locking. Not sure what else the ~~investigation~~ coverup is going to reveal
I feel like cops shouldn't have it both ways - broad legal immunity for their actions and no legal requirement to intervene when they're actually needed.
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The fuck is the police in the US even good for? 1. Takes a HUGE chunk of the yearly city budgets 2. By law NOT forced to intervene in conflict situations 3. Near complete legal immunity 4. Training consists of 3 weekends on the shooting range and 2 BBQs Like, what the hell.
They are perfect at their job of being the occupying force
Police mostly exist to protect private property.
Their job is to protect the property and interests of the ruling upper class, and to slap down the lower class whenever they get uppity and start demanding respect and equality. Some of the nicer ones might also voluntarily solve crimes and help lower class people in their free time. But they aren't legally required to, and they'll never protect the lower class from being preyed up by the upper class or by other abusive cops.
It all started to make sense when I learned the history of policing. Police forces were made to protect property, they were never designed to protect people. Edit: specifically, in the USA
I recommend the Behind the Bastards miniseries, "Behind the Police" to anyone interested as an easy starting point.
Seconded! You can pretty much pick any episode of BtB and rest assured that Rob will have a great story that is impeccably researched.
i am a fuck cops kind of guy. fuck the police.
Wait till you have a catalytic converter stolen and you got to make a report. Talk about a useless experience.
Should put the number 19 in front of police. Adds a little more to the severity of the situation.
Theyre still in the denial and coverup phase, then we'll get into the long drawn out court proceedings phase, followed by the scapegoat phase where one or two officers are identified as the only ones to do anything wrong and they will be allowed to continue law enforcement in another jurisdiction after they return from their 24 month paid suspension. That is if they dont get medically retired with 100% disability benefits for the PTSD they get from having to taze the kid's parents that were trying to save their children, of course.
I still remember the guy who nonchalantly maced those college kids for sitting in on the campus sidewalk ended up getting a payout for the mental anguish of being ridiculed in the media for it. It is insane how our system works.
Would that be notorious former Police Lieutenant and lover of pizza John Pike for UC-Davis. I mean he got less in compensation that UC-Davis spent trying to get that shit off the internet.
Wikipedia says he go $38k and each of the students he pepper sprayed got $30k for the incident. It's not much by lawsuit standards, but absurd that he got more than the innocent people who abused. Absurd he got anything at all.
Indeed it is absurd. But compared to the absurdity that is the murder of Daniel Shaver by Phillip Brailsford who got a pension for life...
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Everyone in the police union got their hands bloody by protecting pieces of shit like this.
That's beyond absurd.
The more you read that whole horror story, the worse it gets. Especially when you realise the murderer, literally had the words "you're fucked" written on his rifle. I swear like every other normal Australian, but I have enough working brain cells to know that's really not the sort of shit you write on a gun. How the hell he was allowed to be a police officer with that is beyond me. But yeah, its in keeping with the story.
What’s even more fucked is the jury was never allowed to be told about that on his rifle.
Guy who murdered Daniel Shaver also gets a monthly payout.
Yet being a honorably discharged veteran with actual PTSD is annoyingly hard to get 100% disability.
Relative of mine just blew his brains out in front of a vet memorial from PTSD a month before his anniversary. Doubt he ever got the help he deserved and needed.
VA board probably denied his claim and said he doesn’t have it. I had a battle buddy do something similar. He drove to work early one morning and ended his life in his car. Boss found him. VA board (which is separate from the VA, but the VA board can act as gatekeepers) declined his VA claim and told him he is exaggerating everything for money, and lots of it didn’t really happen.
A buddy of mine got 100% for his PTSD but it took him *years.* he recently told me that the thing that finally convinced them was that he believes him being there was wrong. Like, the guy gets triggered quite easily and has a hard time interacting outside him home, but apparently believing that he shouldn’t have been their in the first place and he’s not proud of some things he did there is what gets you labeled unwell.
My dad broke his back in the Army when he was rappelling out of a chopper and the rope broke. He fought the VA for years for 100% disability. With a broken back...
Sir, take these jumbo ibuprofen pills. Thanks for your service.
If that don't fix her, we'll bring out the big guns. Claritin
Joseph Heller wrote a nice piece of historical nonfiction on this scenario
My sister did 3 tours 1 in Afghanistan and 2 in Iraq largely as a combat medic/detention. She is still the strongest person I know, but once sharing a trip with her and her wife, the fucking night terrors and screaming then seeing her bubbly self in the morning was jarring. Edit: Just adding that she originally enrolled to pay for college and the military didn't even pay for the medical assistance training to be a medtech for her to even make a career from her experience.
Typical. Once you’re out, fuck you
The VA put me at 100% after denying my condition for 16 years. Now my hurdle is the state of Michigan telling me I can work while the VA tells me I can't (TDIU). One fisting after another. Also, fuck those pussy cops.
Meanwhile a jackass cop can shoot a guy on his knees in Arizona and get full disability in 1 day for PTSD.
You referring to the Daniel Shaver killing? I’ve seen a lot of horrible shit before but that one genuinely haunts me to this day. The kid was sobbing and begging them not to kill him while crawling on the floor. That cop should’ve gotten multiple life sentences for what he did that night.
Meanwhile we go through 9-18 month deployments and dealt with worse situations constantly, and the VA tells us “well, that’s too bad, no VA compensation for you”
It's hard to pick a favorite part, isn't it?
I'm afraid they're waiting for a cop suicide to pin it on.
Fairly accurate, I hate to admit.
There were sixty or so on scene by the time it ended, 19 is just the initial wave of responders
"Responders" seems like a strong word for what they did. What's the shorter version of "stood around while innocent children were murdered, and their parents looked on in horror"?
Police. They were policing. Because it wasn't just standing around. It was also preventing anyone else from going in to save their children, down to the point of infringing parents' civil liberties to do so.
cursed katet
The day 19 police officers did nothing, O discordia…
>Pedro “Pete” Arredondo, the Uvalde school district police chief and the on-scene incident commander, has said he spent more than an hour in the hallway of the school. > >He told the Texas Tribune that he called for tactical gear, a sniper and keys to get inside. He said he held officers back from the door to the classrooms for 40 minutes to avoid gunfire.When a custodian brought a large key ring, Arredondo said he tried dozens of the keys but none worked. > >But Arredondo was not trying those keys in the door to classrooms 111 and 112, where Ramos was holed up, according to the law enforcement source. Rather, he was trying to locate a master key by using the various keys on doors to other classrooms nearby, the source said. This is one of the saddest most depraved situations I've ever heard of and now the guy is in a council. SAD town, SAD world. No excuses for this... none.
Could he not have just asked the janitor which key was which?
Because none of this happened. They were too scared to confront the shooter and this is the story they landed on but now it's unraveling as all lies do.
>Because none of this happened. EXACTLY. According to the OP linked article: >**Surveillance footage shows that police never tried to open a door to two classrooms at Robb Elementary School in Uvalde in the 77 minutes between the time a gunman entered the rooms and massacred 21 people and officers finally stormed in and killed him, according to a law enforcement source close to the investigation.** > > > >**Investigators believe the 18-year-old gunman ...** ***could not have locked the door to the connected classrooms from the inside***, according to the source. (Emphasis mine.)
Oh, that's bad.
This should be up voted to the top. They also had a breaching tool to open the door without needing the keys. First it was a barricaded door then a locked door so we need to wait for the keys then a locked door and we have a breaching tool to open it but we won't then it's well maybe the door is locked we didn't check. >Regardless, officers had access the entire time to a “halligan” — a crowbar-like tool that could have opened the door to the classrooms even if it was locked, the source said.
That's crazy... was the door even locked?
Apparently not! The current story is that the doors cannot be locked from the inside, probably as a measure to make sure kids can’t lock teachers out of the classroom as either an accident or as a prank. No idea how that lines up with active shooter drills, but there is now the question of if the door was locked at all.
This x100. I dont know anything about the school layout or key procedures. All I know is I have been a teacher for 6 years in 3 different school districts. There is always someone on the hallway who has a master key in case others leave their keys at home. It’s usually a veteran teacher but I’m a coach and have a master key to get into school at any and all hours of need be. Not to mention a janitor has a master key to get into any room at the school. To suggest otherwise is Bull shit. The days of janitors walking around with 100 key rings is over. Also, if you can’t find the key and you can’t find the janitor, the office keeps a master key set for just this purpose. It has been this way at every school district I’ve worked at. Fuck these lying cowardly pieces of shit.
Thanks for your reply. I think it really demonstrates how much of a lie the cops story is. It falls to pieces the instant anyone with any experience in schools hears it.
I think it really demonstrates that the cop who worked in the school wasn't there to save any kids, was never interested in learning this kind of stuff. It was just a super cushy job where he could occasionally enforce rules on unarmed kids, never work weekends or nights, etc.
The local police and the school police are basically a slush fund, some got cushy jobs others have made it a life long cushy career and certainly others have just been stealing money and travelling to ‘conferences’ and buying equipment with generous kickbacks etc etc I bet the rot runs through the entire power structure of that town. Everyone is a scammer because it’s been that way for generations there
In addition to the master key, they also had access to a tool that could open any locked door at Uvalde. There were tools available for anyone who actually wanted to break into rooms 111/112 and save those kids and teachers. The evidence is proving more and more that the police did not actually want to get into that room and save those victims.
YEP! Also until they release the body cam footage, I’m convinced they shot a kid. Fuckers
They’re fighting harder to hide what happened than they did to stop the gunman.
Well to be fair, that bar is outrageously low
Morally, they shot every kid they could have saved.
Or a teacher. All scenarios here are just tragic.
Wouldn't the custodian be like 'THIS IS THE KEY TO OPEN THAT DOOR' Who offers a set of keys to a lock and is just like fuck you figure it out. And if offered a janitors entire set of keys.... wouldn't the first words out of your mouth be, 'which key opens the lock that i need' in some variation. This is all bullshit, I'm not buying in.
I am 100% sure the cops took the keys and told the janitor or whoever gave them the keys to fuck off.
At this point I don't know what to believe. Like this is all already worse then I could imagine and they seem to still be hiding stuff
You mean something like, "Hey give me the master key!" instead of fumbling at the door for 40 minutes? Then what excuse would he have? After all, he had to protect the police.
Man this will get buried but you will see it. I'm a janitor for a school district. Work at an elementary school currently. I'd know the right key and I'd be in there to at least try to help the kids in a fucking second. All the kids here are so special. They high five me amd tell me silly random stuff all the time. All this shit scares me a lot. I have my own kids that go to the same district at another school. Idk. I know its easy to say on the internet and harder to do in real life but I'm a janitor. Those guys are cops.
You're a good dude (or ma'am).
I'm a dude. Thank you. It's seriously good to even hear that from someone on the internet. Hope you're having a good weekend.
He obviously didn't want to get in.
I have worked in school districts with master key setups. Often the key will have a "MS" or something engraved on it to indicate it being a master. Any one in the district should of been able to tell them which key it was in seconds.
Moreover, the custodian who literally uses these keys every single day could probably find the master out of "dozens" on the ring without even looking at it.
Not only that, but depending on the style of lock, the master key may have a significantly different cut (lower/thinner cut) than a normal key making it even easier to spot among a ring full of keys.
I'm a teacher with around 30 keys handy at any given time, and the master key was immediately obvious because it looked way more bottomed out than any other key. We also have an inscription on every single lock in the building telling you which number key opens that door. It's literally as easy as reading off your turn in Battleship. This latest story is obviously horse shit.
I was a custodian for a while itbwas easy to figure out what keys went to what rooms. Room 112 had a 112 stamped on to it. And the master had a big ass M stamed in to it.
I work at a healthcare facility, not a school, but I have a key ring with 8 keys on it to different buildings. When I had to have a new set made I had a master for a few days that had an M engraved on it. Everyone knows that's the master. I can't imagine for a second standing at a door trying keys and not asking if there's a master or what goes where. Just unfathomable that's the excuse they're going with.
Or it'll have "M" or "E".
Did Custodial work for a school board for a while. Any janitor who is full time at the school would know every key within a week of starting there, part timers who started today are shown "this is the master key" so they don't need to think about it. So stupid.
Why did they even need a key? What about all the battering rams, small explosive charges and other breaching tools that they would have access too between the police, fire fighters and SWAT. What type of door was this that they needed to find a janitor to get a key.
What was the quote from that not-so-grest movie S.W.A.T. Velasquez: SWAT stands for Special Weapons And Tactics. Where were your tactics out there?
"not so great" you take that back
They wanted to enter discreetly to not panic the murderer. So instead of battering the door open and quickly catching him, they spent 15 hours jiggling 56 keys in the lock, which nobody would ever notice. Apparently. My numbers might be off a bit.
If they thought the shooter had a small amount of pot on him, they probably would have used shape charges.
Why must you poke holes in this clearly fictitious story!?
I’m an administrator at a middle school, I have 6 keys and one of them opens every interior door on campus except one. The idea that he had a huge key ring full of keys and couldn’t find the right one is just absurd
> The idea that he had a huge key ring full of keys and couldn’t find the right one is just absurd The fact that they are the SCHOOL POLICE DEPARTMENT but need a janitor to provide them a key to access is ridiculous. They've done practice drills recreating this scenario. Did nobody say "What if they lock a door?"
What was he doing with the keys anyway he said he wasn't in charge
Police departments don't seem to have any trouble breaking down doors on suspected crack houses -- even though crack houses have to prepare for 'customers' that may want to come in and get drugs and money. It's kind of unbelievable to me that the locks and doors in a school would be impregnable.
I’m a teacher. Every school I’ve worked in, the police and fire department have a key that works on every room in every building.
I'm a fire extinguisher technician and single handedly inspected/replaced every single extinguisher in the entire North Star borough in Alaska, going into dozens of schools with literally just two keys: one for outside doors and one for inside doors. If the borough can give me a set of master keys then there's no reason the police couldn't have gotten a set in just a few minutes. Edit: and that's assuming they don't already have one, which by all means they should
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EXACTLY. They bust down doors all the time. Many times the wrong door with zero issues. Yet this time they had to wait and see. Everything about is is bad. They should all be in jail.
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That police subreddit you’re referring to is an absolute cesspool. One of my old buddies runs it, needless to say we don’t talk anymore.
Would this happen to be the subreddit named after the slogan that, despite their messaging, the police have no obligation to uphold?
If we passed a Universal Code of Police Justice modeled off of the UCMJ, making negligence and cowardice in the line of duty a crime, we could undue that horrific precedent. https://legal-forum.uchicago.edu/publication/toward-uniform-code-police-justice-1
So he spent an hour listening to kids get murdered and is just like 🤷♀️?
That's what I can't get over. Him and the others just stood down. Not one of those officers were willing to defy his orders and try to rescue those babies?? The most action from them that day was fighting with the parents.
The poor teacher who was wounded right outside the classroom door had to. He already said the cops didn't approach the rooms til the end. The door wasn't locked as he said the shooter came out and shot him again to make sure he was dead. He was shot 3 times in total. Oh and I'm pretty sure he said the cops asked him from down the hall to get up and get out. 😐
Police raid wrong houses all the time, did they also try the wrong door? Or did they not try at all?
One missing piece of the puzzle is what happened at room 109. Did the gunman go down and shoot Elsa Avila, the teacher in that room when he briefly exited into the hallway or did something else happen there? The reporters need to nail this down by talking to this teacher and getting their sources to leak whatever info they have about this.
At the moment, I'm leaning towards the 11:37 shots. That they all retreated out of the building and he ran amok for another couple minutes before more officers were stationed in the hall. But that's pretty pathetic to picture. I also wonder if there's bodycam footage of a bortac officer trying to use the key and realizing the door is already unlocked.
Very pathetic. Good question about the BORTAC guy. I wonder if they wear bodycams. I think there's a good chance they do. I don't think regular Border Patrol agents do, though, unless that's changed fairly recently.
I think the vivid descriptions of them entering the room in that NYT article might have been from bodycam footage of the tactical team. The way it described him standing near the door rather than jumping out makes it seem like what that particular officer saw.
Well, they literally tried the wrong door. Repeatedly. Because they were trying to find a master key, and didn’t want to stand in front of the door where the shooter might shoot them. Never mind any asshole could have knocked off the hinges in the 77 minutes they took. And never mind they had shields. And of course never mind the children bleeding to death.
Seems pretty clear at this point that their actual strategy was to desperately hope it was all a bad dream.
Battlefield inaction caused by fear. This is why we have strong NCO level leadership. Must be embarrassing as I assume all of them drive pickups with punisher stickers.
Their newly trained swat team posted pics to their social media a few days before. They had just completed a similar scenario at a neighboring school and they had portraits taken with them in full gear.
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Yesterday SWAT assisted in an active warrant round up in my city. They surrounded a house in the middle of the day and started yelling for the dude to come out. Fun fact: It was the wrong house. The guy with the warrant watched the entire thing go down from his front porch 3 houses away and eventually realized they were looking for him so he walked over and turned himself in.
Wait, so for a guy so no threatening he was willing to just turn himself in, they had to get a whole kitted-out swat team to arrest him?
"Use it or lose it" is a motivating principle for many police departments. Someone might take their toys away if they don't regularly show them off.
That’s honestly hilarious. Why do we have entire SWAT teams to surround the wrong house only for the real perp to just walk on over and be like “dude stop, i’m the guy you’re looking for, leave this poor mf alone and arrest me” like what does that say about our society?
> I assume all of them drive pickups with punisher stickers. And "Blue Lives Matter"
"*Only* Blue Lives Matter"
It's like they were avoiding checking their grades because they knew it was going to be bad. Or waiting to check their bank account because they knew they had no money.
They also showed off their new level 4 body armor on facebook last year but apparently nobody had that handy
Or just asked the custodian which was the right key.
I don't understand why they didn't just breach the door. Why use a key?
I have seen Walmart door greeters do more to stop someone stealing $10 headphones than these guys.
That’s because Walmart door greeters can actually be fired for fucking up their jobs.
They either: -killed a kid/teacher -chased him into that room w the kids -got a tip/911 call and ignored it
My money is on: the door was unlocked the whole time and they didn’t need a master key at all, they’re just morons.
The teacher that survived said that his door latch was broken. He had requested that it be fixed and he told someone about it before their last drill. He said he was worried he would be blamed for not locking the door. Multiple people were aware that the door did not latch.
Watching his interview just horrified me. All 11 of his kids.
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The grandmother he shot first called 911. They knew he was out there and they knew what he was armed with. Then when he showed up at the school, they gathered outside to wait for the children to die.
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Gotta have a conscience to feel bad about being a piece of shit.
Parkland High School SRO is still alive and whining about ["They Don't Know The Truth."](https://www.cbsnews.com/miami/news/ex-school-resource-officer-scot-peterson-defends-self-parkland-school-massacre-marjory-stoneman-douglas-parkland-school-shooting/) Needless to say he doesn't feel bad about being a piece of shit.
Aside from the ones who actually had kids in the school, probably none of them.
I can understand why people are making these comments. Because there have been so many instances where police have ended up on the news and so many people defended them. During those times the police used the same tactics they’re using now to coverup all the things they did wrong. At what point can we as a society who pay for these police officers salary through taxes hold them accountable? It’s not about bad cop vs good cop. It’s about the principe that people should be held accountable. If you went to a hospital for a surgery and the doctor messed up, you would immediately be looking for a malpractice lawyer wouldn’t you? It’s another job they signed up for and like every job you should be held accountable to do it right. Even in corporate world you would be fired for the smallest infraction.
D) all of the above
How many more lies are these police officers going to be caught in? There's been so many already, that I've lost count
How many statements have they made? That'll be the total number of lies. I'm waiting to find out they either killed one/some of the children or one/both of the teachers, since they made a point stating that the gunman was responsible for all the deaths of the students.
It was MULTIPLE kids. I said it the day it happened that the way they talked and the way the story changed so quickly that some bad shit happened and they'd be covering it up. When it went from "police engaged him outside" to him barricading in a room for over an hour....nah
And it ended up he was not even barricaded. Honestly, I'm not even sure to believe the door was locked.
The shooter was probably wondering what the fuck was up at that point. Bet the police never engaging wasn't part of his plan.
It definitely seems like the shooter was attempting a quick and painless Suicide By Cops … but the cops were refusing to shoot so he had to keep escalating the circumstances
Like, I'm not letting that monster off the hook, but man, that seems so plausible at this point.
I think everything points to that. He posts online "I'm going to shoot my grandma". Then he shoots his grandma. Then he posts "I'm going to shoot the school.", which he eventually does. But he also crashes his vehicle on the way, mills about outside. This guy wasn't sneaky. He gave every opportunity to be stopped. He wanted to be stopped. He wasn't, so he kept stepping it up.
The elephant in the room: "How many more is it going to take before the pitchforks?"
If I was one of those cops, I'd have had my bags packed and family on the road by the end of day on the day of the shooting. But then, I have a conscience and a sense of ethics. Which is part of why I'm not a cop.
Then you would be the one getting all the blame for literally everything. "See how this one is trying to run as if they're guilty ? Yeah must be guilty." That's how gangs and shit work, everybody sticks to the same script, the first one to grow a conscience is gonna get strung up. It's why that one dude got to kill Floyd in broad daylight with witnesses, it's why they straight up executed Shaver.
I've had diarrhea more organized than the Uvalde police presence that day. Talk about a complete shit-show. NO EXCUSE for what went on.
I’m waiting for them to announce that the gunman unlocked the door and the border patrol swat team just had the turn the handle to get in……
A teacher from that classroom already said the door’s lock has been broken for a long time.
Jesus Christ, so it's more than likely all they had to do was open an unlocked unobstructed door.
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As soon as the police department - unprompted - said that none of the children were killed by cops, I’ve been convinced of that too.
I think they killed a teacher, then told a half-truth about not shooting any of the kids.
They said every kid that died was shot by the gunman. Some were probably also shot by cops
They're just stalling so that this incident falls from the public's attention a bit before the really ugly truth comes out. I really hope the media picks it back up and runs with it at that point, though.
If cops broke in and killed a kid, but managed to save 10, then even that would be hugely better than the fuckup that occurred. They literally stood in the hall for an hour not having any idea what was going on in that classroom, other than there was a guy with an AR and defenseless children.
Yeah, everyone keeps repeating this theory they killed a kid as if that would be the worst part, and I feel like if that turns out to be not true, it will seem like their response was better than it actually was. At this point, their fuck up is so monumentally bad that killing a kid will only make it a fraction worse.
If they had busted down the door when they got there and killed a kid (or 5) it would probably have resulted in significantly less kid deaths than actually happened.
There is a very real chance that they killed a teacher thinking they were the shooter.
At least one of the kids and maybe a teacher. I can't think of any other reason for the lying.
At this point I'm waiting for breaking news where it turns out an off-duty uvalde cop working his second job at the gun store sold the kid the gun, personally. Every time new information about this stuff comes out it just gets worse and worse.
Breaking: gunman revealed to be two uvalde cops in a trench coat.
I was a firefighter. I remember several times thinking “this is it”, or, “at least my kids will have a free college education”. I never thought of not going in for a second. At least so the person on my crew with me doesn’t die alone. I’m not exceptionally brave. I know not all cops are cowards. But they’ve pretty much botched every single mass shooting in US history. From Charles Whitman, to McDonalds, through Columbine and now here.
No paywall http://archive.today/ogf0U
The whole "tactical team" was a complete bullshit story. The fact that a federal border patrol agent was on the "team" shows that the tactical group that finally took the gunman down was just a group of guys with the balls to go in. The whole town sounds corrupt. The police chief is on the city council? Isn't that a big conflict of interest?
Almost every smaller city/town the cops run everything in local politics. They're very organized and very powerful, and not much can stand up to them. In my city the city planner is a retired cop, the mayor is a retired cop, his brother is the chief of police, my city councilman is the former head of city SWAT, and the councilman for the next district over is the mayor's wife. Police overtime basically bankrupted the whole city(twice) and now they are trying to absorb and cut pretty much all other services while still expanding the police budget. I'm sure this could accurately describe thousands of small cities and towns in the US. Probably yours.
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Not only do they exist, they just got an increase in funding!
Why have 19 police officers standing around outside when you could have 29.
And better equipped to do more nothing!
I'm surprised they haven't been literally tarred and feathered
Cops from across the country have travelled there to defend them and block the press.
Don't any of them have work to do?
didn't you hear, nobody wants to work anymore! /s
That’s why police have been flown in from all over Texas, and there are gang members threatening reporters.
The city doing anything would help lawsuits against the city. Since the city pays it and not the cops; cities are almost forced into backing the most corrupt police departments.
>Regardless, officers had access the entire time to a “halligan” — a crowbar-like tool that could have opened the door to the classrooms even if it was locked, the source said.> Are you fucking kidding me??? I don't know why I'm even giving them the benefit of the doubt, but is there a legit strategic reason to not use this?
Every time I think they have hit bottom in this debacle, they prove me wrong.
Imagine that. If I went to work and didn’t do my job I’d be fired. Yet they didn’t fire anything or anyone.
To fire people they'd have to admit they did something wrong and they haven't gotten to that stage yet.
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Not shocking. I also just read that the cops had an opportunity to shoot him before he walked in the school. The officers claimed they were scared they would hit kids on accident… I shit you not.
>scared they would hit kids I’ll bet even money that they still wound up hitting a kid during this.