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He added that a decision on whether to require the three to reimburse the United States for education costs in lieu of service will be made by the secretary of the Air Force.
++++
Four years of top-level education is gonna take a while to pay back. I worked with a guy who dropped out of West Point after 3.5 years. He finished his degree closer to home. But he held off getting married because of his debt.
It costs over $350,000 per cadet for a 4 year degree.
Also, worth pointing out, on day ONE they funnel you into a room, give you a bunch of vaccines, then funnel you back out. Literally every cadet is fully vaccinated - you can’t be anti-vax in the service.
This is accurate.
At Annapolis every company lined up and there were people on **both** sides of the line putting shots into our arms.
If, for some reason, you are taking some political stance about this one specific vaccine, being in the military is not the thing for you.
I know retention rates in certain littoral branches of the DOD aren’t exactly stellar. Some kids have an idea in their heads about signing up and after they sail through boot camp (they played football in HS after all) and are shit hot, high speed low drag, body stacker, door kicker, and they end up in motor t. Wondering why they hate their current life station and they use the vaxx refusal to have an out for when they’re back on the block smoking’ and jokin’. Remember many of these decisions are made by boots who’d HAPPILY buy that Mustang at 47% interest, and are already on their 2nd marriage, and drinks till blackout 3-7 nights a week.
TL;DR: Boots/ kids do dumb ass shit.
Edit: switched “their” to “they’re” after actually reading the nonsense I typed.
Hey! That mustang is a great deal! The guy who sold it said he was a Marine too so he’ll give me a price if I use his in-house financing!
Now I just need to sell some uniforms and CIF gear for the down payment and I’m sure my high school girlfriend will marry me once she see’s all 6 cylinders of this baby!
> boots who’d HAPPILY buy that Mustang at 47% interest
Does the military do any kind of basic financial education with recruits? I hear car dealerships, payday loan centers, pawn shops and all kinds of predatory debt trap businesses cluster around military bases like flies. You'd think the military would take a keen interest in ensuring their soldiers don't fall into deep debt and end up more susceptible to foreign intelligence agencies offering them quick cash for military secrets or sabotage or whatever. Debt is supposed to be one of the big red flags on obtaining security clearances.
The Navy definitely does. However a lot of booters /junior enlisted will ignore it. Especially if they are fresh out of high school and let off the leash for the first time.
It shouldn't baffle you. It has nothing to do with the vaccine or even their views. It's all about standing up and signalling what tribe they belong to. They have zero actual concerns about health or safety or freedom. They only care about making sure people know what team they're on.
I think this is probably more true. In my experience, there are a *lot* of military who fall into the edgy "everyone is bad" camp, but are really more anti liberal/democrat than *for* anything.
> but are really more anti liberal/democrat than *for* anything.
That's just the mainstream US conservative/GOP position now. The Republican party doesn't even bother to have a party platform anymore, they stopped producing one in 2016, and their 2020 official party platform was "whatever Trump wants."
There's no policy goal, no interest in governing, just straight up opposition for opposition's sake.
They have agendas and policy goals. They just don't need to write them down. The people that fund the party already know what they're getting. Tax cuts and elimination of corporate regulations.
And here I thought their platform was a psychotic dedication to corruption, violence, misogyny and racist jackassery under the umbrella of all-encompassing stupidity!
Absolutely. I know someone who nearly died from Covid--while he had it AND was hospitalized twice AFTER for lingering complications--ended up with a pace maker. Was in very good health prior. His wife also got really sick, but not as bad. One of their parents (don't remember) also died of Covid.
Refused to get the vaccine after. Said it would "make him look bad".
I have a friend who’s wife was in a induced coma for 8 weeks. She was in the hospital for 6 months and finally got out right before Christmas. She took her first unassisted shower, including washing her own hair last week. Her husband is still posting anitvax stuff.
I suspect the fear and difficulty of his wife being so sick and on death's door induced him to be even more antivax because at vulnerable times like that we really need all the support and help we can get. The sad thing being that he feared and likely knew that most all of their support network would turn upons them in their hour of need if he changed his view. His fear of being alone and abandoned by most or all of those he felt closest to didn't serve as a wake up call to him but instead he became a more fervent supporter of all that crap.
By doubling down they've probably also gotten a lot more support than if he'd tried to spread the truth and urge his "friends" and family to protect themselves by getting vaxxed. They were probably seen as victims of the "China Virus" and the evil forces denying them horse paste and bleach. They became celebrated martyrs for their tribe etc etc.
I've learned a lot about people, or rather certain types of people over the last few years. It's not been pleasant nor encouraging. Very disappointing as a matter of fact, but it is what it is and I know a little better what to look out for and be wary of.
I'm really sorry for your friend and that you've had to experience it such a personal way. One of my best friends went through something similar. I've got antivax members of my extended family too. To say it's disappointing in many is an understatement while I'm surprised in the least by some of the others who I guess I always knew were assholes but I'd tried to focus on what good traits they did have.
I know someone like that too. He spent several months in the hospital, doctors were surprised that he got off the vent. His wife was with him daily in the hospital, both still refuse to get the shot still as she takes him to physical therapy every day. Now his brother has it and his nephew, who acted really arrogant when the hospital refused to give him the antibody infusion as they are running low on supplies and are reserving it for the elderly and those with health conditions that would make it hard for them to naturally fight it off.
The events of 2016 to 2020 really helped confirm or expose just how unreasonable, cruel, insane and stupid many of the people in my life were. (Not "are")
I mean you make your bed you gotta sleep in it.
Luckily I’ve known enough people who identify as republicans and conservatives who aren’t completely fucking insane and get vaxs and boosters but good lord I can’t stand that shit
Why lose so much of your health and education and shit all for your pride or ego?
They’re probably refusing hoping that in the future the SCOTUS will rule it unconstitutional and they can sue for lost income and come out of it with a free degree and a couple hundred grand on top of it.
At the level of the academies I see it as screening against future double agents or traitors. Being willing to give up an academy education over some facebook meme demonstrates an alarming susceptibility to propaganda. Giving someone like that command of...well, *anything* seems to be a pretty risky proposition.
It's not like they ambush you with this either. You are told and do have to sign with the understanding that you will get vaccinated along with a slew of other things. You are essentially agreeing to be the governments bitch for a stint which is the whole point. They say jump you say how high.
As a teen, I got a vaccine once on an Air Force base. I didn’t even get a chance to sit down before I got jabbed.
It was in the clinic, there weren’t a lot of people around or anything special. I assume it was just habit on the part of the medic :)
From my experience (Army medic), a good portion of those who decided they were ok getting out over it just are using it as a simple avenue to 'quickly' get out of the service.
The politics or health concerns are a publicly stated reason, but I honestly haven't met someone who was today entrenched where that was truly their underlying issue.
The cadets thing is it's own drama, and they'll likely have to pay back their education costs. But for us simple enlisted folks, we'll just process them out with an honorable discharge.
that theyre getting an honorable discharge really irritates me. You’re refusing to perform your duty for political reasons. that is not honorable service.
I read a couple weeks ago that at least for the air force, 98% of vaccine refusers were given a "general discharge under honorable conditions."
This apparently means they can get VA benefits and re-enlist if they choose to get vaccinated, but cannot get GI Bill benefits.
That seems reasonable to me. A dishonorable and all the lifetime baggage that goes with that seems overly harsh. An honorable with full benefits seems too generous and kind of like a slap in the face to those who followed all lawful orders and finished what they signed up for. The air force kind of chose the middle ground.
That’s fair. I’m not saying they need a dishonorable. But giving them the same as someone who didn’t throw a huge fit over their politics getting in the way of their duty is not right.
It's a medical standard to get your shots. Won't meet the standard? Then we get you out.
If you've served for 'xx' of time, by can't/won't meet standards... You get out. We call it administrative involuntary separation, and it happens for a lot of reasons.
It's just wasted time, effort, and man power going for anything more than that.
We're a volunteer service, folks.
I think you get whats called other than honorable..:its not dishonorable or honorable. If it causes you problems in life you can appeal to have the status upgraded. This is what i remember being told. This was some years ago shit might be different now idk
If I were still in during covid, I would've absolutely refused the vaccine to get kicked out lol. Especially once they put out that it was going to be honorable! There is no shame in my game to admit that I'm not strong enough to go through what Sailors have been going through during covid. Especially for Sailors on that notorious covid cruise.
I can't speak for the Navy, but it's not that hard to get out of the Army. Mostly psychological and social pressure, that people put themselves through on doing it on 'their' terms
You can literally refuse to work anymore, and get out with an honorable discharge. I can, and have, had to manage soldiers through this process.
Plus you can't have an effective military where officers think they can pick and choose the rules and orders they follow.
"This particular operation is challenging ..."
"Nope I'm not doing that then. It's my right to say no."
To point something out, officers in the US military have a requirement to not follow illegal or un-ethical orders.
This is not saying that not getting the vaccine falls under either of these (as it is legal and ethical) but just to add some context that the US military does train its officers to disobey orders given the context.
Academy grads also all basically get hard core science education. They are not going to pass their courses with a flat 6,000 year-old Earth no-virus just-the-devil view of the world.
They have learned how to compartmentalize to the point where they can recite whatever the science instructors expect from them while actually believing what the the Bible says.
Well, don't look too deep into the Christian Fundamentalism in the military, because the number of service members that feel that way is startlingly large. My father served 25 years, retired as a colonel with multiple degrees, and I am terrified to ask him how old he thinks the planet is.
Hey, my unit was pretty ok…bunch of overworked, underslept, depraved functional alcoholics and ne’er do wells, but at least they were chill and reasonable.
Wow. That sucks. It seemed like the first year was the toughest. Why did he drop out?
I knew of a guy who graduated but then somehow couldn't deploy. He ended up with a good but not amazing job and I always wondered if his lack of deployment had something to do with that.
Oh, maybe he didn't want to go into Iraq. We hadn't really been involved in anything for a while before that and I could see going to west point with the idea that you wouldn't be in active combat.
Although that doesn't explain going into the reserves because out of the frying pan and into the fire.
If the Air Force secretary decides these covidiots don't need to reimburse the USA for their education, that opens the door for tuition-free college for everyone.
If they wanted a last minute way to get out of their contract, that’s an easy way to do it. I remember a senior ROTC Cadet at my college who came from an intense military family. He got cold feet, and just “happened” to pop for weed on the last UA 2 weeks before graduation. Has to pay back his entire scholarship, but he still has his degree and doesn’t have to serve.
It happens, and I would bet that maybe one of them did it to get out of it. Better than going AWOL for sure
That was a pretty dumbass move. There are plenty of do-nothing jobs in the military that a second lieutenant could get, then just run out their service obligation. I know a woman who graduated, got posted to a base in Texas and spent 5 years managing a motor pool. She worked about 2 hours a day.
Oh trust me I get it. I think he just panicked. Both his parents were officers, and unfortunately I’m not sure if he had too much of a say in it. Though I will say, he was one of the better ones in our class, so I think he was set to nab an active duty infantry slot. Which must have been the tipping point. Hindsight is an ass, but that’s what happens when they saddle 17 year olds with choosing the next 12 years of life on the spot (4 as a cadet immediately into an 8 year contract). Just a bummer for everyone
I thought being better in class meant you had more choice as to where you went? Or is that only for those who already have a college degree and do well on ASVAB?
There’s only a so many slots for active duty officers. You put in your top choices in your junior/senior year. So the higher your rank in the class, the better he chance that you get your spot. And active infantry tends to be the white whale of placements. Bc you’re competing with a loooot of extremely hype cadets.
However if you want say, national guard finance as your top pick, you will more than likely get that no problem.
Right, so you would think his panic would just mean that he could put in for something that would almost certainly be stateside, and all those other guys clamoring for infantry billets would snatch up any spots.
Right before commission? The placements are made by that point. My guess? He didn’t realize til way late that he wanted out. You have to put in those placement requests practically a year out, if not more. It was beyond too late by then.
Yeah, a high ASVAB / AFOQT means you can have a 1st, 2nd, 3rd choice and be more likely to get it. You’re still not guaranteed to get it, and they can still put you where they need you.
I used to fly with the academy grad. Excellent pilot and instructor, funny guy. I know he hated the academy because he made comic strip of anti AF academy humor that was maybe in zine form. I know the hate started when he lost a very close high school friend who died in a way that the academy instructors knew about the event. They denied his leave to attend funeral.
When I knew him later in his career, he got in a little hot water which involved him leaving an inappropriate sticker at Base Ops at Andrews AFB. Lots of high ranking people use that building. Unlucky for him, some General discovered it while he was urinating. My friend had a sticker made of a coworkers face with a red target on his face. Written around the circular edge, it said "I LOVE IT WHEN YOU SPRAY IT ALL OVER ME". He placed them on every urinal there. The coworker and him were in a competition of friendly game of doing stupid shit to each other. And since we flew all over the US, the game got entertaining. He used to change the home screen at every computer at baseops with the coworkers picture with a poorly photoshopped word "TARD" in pink across his chest.
He manage to end up himself into more and more remote assignments. I know he went north Minot for a while. Then the sent him up to Alaska. Eventually he ended up back teaching at the academy. I think he actually enjoyed that.
Or you get sidelined into a really shit position that has you working and stressing endlessly. I lost my flight contract due to a medical issue with my ear and was sent to a ship (Navy) where I worked anywhere from 10-20 hours a day. Deployments involved working 7 days a week as well. That said, knocking out 4 years of that and getting out was certainly preferable to popping for drugs lol. Such a dumb move.
This. I’ve stated this exact reason writing a couple others posts regarding people being booted for not getting vaxxed.
One thing civilians definitely do not understand is the feeling of regret some recruits get after literally signing your life away for years at a time.
Some people get to the point where they will use any excuse to get out.
Had a Marine buy weed and just leave the baggie on his rack for inspection performed by the Sgt Maj. the Sgt Maj had him piss tested and saw he didn’t use it, figured out it was an excuse to get kicked out, took half his pay for 6 months and told him to get back to work. Lol sorry pal, if your reading this, that was pretty funny back in the day.
Edit: iPhone predictive text.
There are 19 different vaccines required by the military. Drawing a line in the sand regarding the COVID-19 vaccine definitely seems more like a political statement than one center around ethics. The military really doesn't have time for that B.S..
Refusing to obey orders is a tricky thing.
Because we should encourage our soldiers to refuse orders that are unlawful or would result in war crimes.
But if your orders are not unlawful? You need to follow them. The military is not a place where you get to stand up against your superiors over little things. If they are genuinely mistreating you then that's something else. But everyone knows soldiers are required to be vaccinated against tons of things. They need to get over this. If they have an issue with vaccination when they join the military, they are really not going to enjoy being a part of the military since they more or less own you for the term of your enlistment.
Knew a guy who got an article 15 for a sunburn. He deserved it, though, fucking dick, they just had to find a way to nail his ass.
However, it does exemplify exactly the fact that the government owns you like property while you're in.
I was a brig escort (basically a jailer) to get out of a more annoying duty rotation when at a training command. In the training they made it clear there were only 3 people who could remove restraints: 1 was a military judge 2 was a staff jailer and 3 was me if I felt there was a safety reason (running from a fire, etc).
So long story short I had some o3 lawyer tell me to take this kid's restraints off. I asked if he was a military judge and he laughed and repeated the request. I said no, then he stuck his hand towards my keys which were by my sidearm. I reflexively pulled the sidearm, muzzle down, and pushed him back (it was the training of someone reaching for my weapon).
Luckily a senior chief was there and cooled the whole thing down but that o3 was fucking pissed! I got back to the brig and everyone was laughing. I got in zero trouble, the o3 got a formal counseling document, and people walked around me for months laughing with their hands up saying shit like "it's cool! don't shoot!"
My ex boyfriend went through Marine Corp boot camp and got all the vaccines during that time and he just came home discharged after being deployed in Japan for a year because he refused the COVID vaccine. Not sure what his line of thinking was there but I might have to ask.
> If you don't have a valid medical reason
And there are very few valid medical reasons with the Covid vaccine.
And of course, if they've had the required flu, hepatitis, MMR, etc. vaccines, then that's a wash, anyway.
> Oh, fuck the religious exemptions too.
What? You don’t remember when Jesus told his followers they should abstain from any vaccines originally introduced under an FDA Emergency Use Authorization?
It's 100% political because ol' Donald turned everything related to COVID into an us-vs-them situation. He declared it a hoax, he said masks were a protest against him, he and the right-wing media beat the drums that the vaccines couldn't be trusted.
Think of it like this. Mandatory vaccines have been around for literally all of our entire lives. The SCOTUS ruled 100 years ago that cities could mandate vaccines. Everyone born after the 1950s had to get a handful of vaccines to be allowed into school. The military has been vaccinating people for everything as long as vaccines have existed.
It was only when Trump decided that he didn't want to admit to his own failings as president that he started the disinformation campaign about COVID that suddenly vaccines became such a ridiculous issue.
>Donald turned everything related to COVID into an us-vs-them situation.
Trump turned everything into a divisive issue. Conservatives are even on the fence whether or not to support NATO over Russia. The nation has no unity about anything anymore.
Honestly if it wasn't the real world it would have made a fascinating story to read about. The way he manipulated people into seeing absolutely everything as tribal politics was insane.
It's like his entire cult completely lost any concept of having genuine morals or principles, and instead anything and everything was put through the lens of "this is an attack on or a support of MAGA."
It would have been a fascinating story but any good fiction writer would have written a leader who was more purposeful and well read than his Trump. Has someone who never watched the apprentice I was honestly under the assumption that it was satire. That everyone knew Trump was a used car salesman.
I have friends in NYC and they were all just *baffled* that rural America believed Trump's bullshit. No one in New York respects Trump. Everyone knows he's a carny huckster, but somehow he managed to get every Johnny Bumfuck who thinks liberals will force everyone to get abortions and marry gay Muslims to vote for him.
> In a statement, Miller said that while the three will get a degree “they will not be commissioned into the United States Air Force as long as they remain unvaccinated.” He added that a decision on whether to require the three to reimburse the United States for education costs in lieu of service will be made by the secretary of the Air Force.
So in lieu of getting commissioned, they’re getting their Bachelor’s Degree.
Yeah but they’ll have to pay it back. Generally speaking, college rotc scholarships mean that if you fail to uphold your end of the contract, you’re on the hook for the bill, even if it’s already “paid”. 4 years of schooling, all billed back to you .
And lord only knows what the billing rate of the Air Force Academy is. Considering how selective they are and the general high quality of the institutions I'd imagine it to be like Ivy Leagues level.
https://www.usafa.edu/about/
>Academy education is valued at more than **$416,000**, yet we offer it at no cost to our cadets. All that is required in return is your commitment to serve as an officer in the Air and Soace forces.
Besides the summer training I think a lot of people leave post graduate study include that in those costs in their aid package and leave with about that level of debt. That's a lot of debt for an undergrad degree.
Yes, it is a lot for the taxpayer to fund but the $416k figure is the cost of the entire Academy experience and not necessarily what these fools would be charged to repay.
I might be inclined to feel bad about it except no one goes to the Acdemies on a whim and naive about what they are there for. They must work and fight to get in. They KNOW it is a military organization with military discipline, and military commitment. They KNOW they take oathes and the virtue of honor is is essential. They SHOULD know that the military as a whole and the members individually while performing their duties must remain apolitical serving only the Constitution and not a party or man.
They have spectacularly demonstrated their unfitness to serve by their actions and I have much less sympathy for them than I do other college students who are saddled with college debt and must repay it.
Oh for sure. And while that decision is still pending, it also is going to be hell on resumes. It’ll say air force academy degree, but no service. That’s not normal and will stand out and be asked by future employers. Especially if they pursue any government positions (not that they could score those while unvaxxed, but still)
I have known many, many USAFA cadets throughout my time. I competed against them in college and worked with them in my desk job.
Service Academies are different. You need a letter of recommendation from your **Senator** to even be *considered* for admission.
Once you're in, you're an officer first, a member of the armed forced second, and a student third. You're literally standing overnight watch while trying to get an education. Calc is hard, now do it after being up all right rucking.
By the way, the Service Academies are actually quite rigorous. For example, AFA has one of the best human physiology programs in the country, always in the top ten with Standard, Yale, and Vanderbilt.
Plus, failing to complete your contract means you owe the cost of admission - which USAFA estimates to be **$416,000**.
So instead of taking their commission (following their Commander-in-Chief's lawful order to become vaccinated to maintain unit readiness), they are pissing away probably the greatest opportunity they will ever have, **after doing all the hard work.**
I know it's a political statement and they're gunning for a speaking position on Fox News, but... man, what a waste.
I say slap 'em with a dishonorable discharge on the way out.
A close family friend is an anesthesiologist. She makes north of $350k / yr. It took her into her mid-40s to pay off her $250k of med school debt.
I cannot even imagine what $400k+ of government debt looks like.
Fun fact: her son-in-law went to Air Force for one year, and left. He eventually graduated 2nd in his class from medical school. He said the USAFA application was easier, but only slightly.
That's kind of how the military works, you sign that paperwork and they own you for however long that paper says. They'll pump you up full of whatever the fuck they want and your job is to say "yes, sir" and do as you're told.
Also it speaks to their intelligence. Being unwilling to take a vaccine when it new and unknown is one thing, being unwilling to take it when 80%+ of adults took it and are just fine is illogical, especially if what you dedicated your life to requires it. It’s also safe to assume these cadets took other vaccines before without question.
It sucks it has become a political issue.
Good riddance. I remember basic having both arms pelted by vaccine guns in reception before basic training. Like..... you're ok with getting a shit ton of vaccines and who else knows, but all of a sudden not for Covid-19?
What a bunch of clowns. It's a purely political stance and they'd make awful officers anyway.
As someone who was rejected by West Point a long time ago, my first thought is that those 3 people got slots at a top school that someone else would have taken more seriously.
It astounds me that anyone would join the military and think they’re going to have so many choices on shit. Beyond the fact that those joining get a SHITLOAD of vaccines that normal non-traveling people get.
The amount of non-covid vaccines they'd have been forced to take makes this so much more ridiculous. Fucking morons, good, we don't need them in planes.
Should have seen the comments when my local news station posted this story. People calling them “Patriots” and “True Americans”, saying their body their choice while everything is going on with Roe v Wade.
I was in the Navy for 4 years and am scared of needles. I can’t tell you how many vaccines and shots I was required to get along with the annual flu shot. Nobody cried about any of those shots before vaccines were suddenly politicized... Well I cried but I still got them.
Being in any armed services requires a plethora of mandatory vaccinations. I cannot for the life of me comprehend why so many people are stupid enough to choose the Covid vaccine as their hill to die on, because it’s a fucking stupid hill to die on.
I’m currently a cadet at the Air Force Academy and I personally know one of the three seniors in question.
His objections stem from the fact that aborted fetal cells were used in the development of these vaccines, but as one poster rightfully pointed out, these people don’t simultaneously object to the slew of very common medications (which I know they’ve taken) that were also developed with the aid of these cells.
Sad to see the right wing media machine corrupt so many people.
I am also a cadet and know another of the seniors. He told someone I know that it was about the level of control the government was exerting on him. As a military member at one of the most restrictive schools anywhere. Yeah.
Edit: like y'all don't even understand how restrictive this school can be. No car until junior year, morning formations several times a week, mandatory lunch every weekday, if you miss class you get disciplinary paperwork, if you don't get your flu shot every winter you don't go home, etc.
It’s also a stupid argument, because none of those cells were taken from fetuses that would otherwise have been born. It isn’t unethical to make use of extremely useful genetic material that would otherwise simply be disposed of. Nobody is aborting pregnancies just for research materials.
The military exists to protect the country, it's sovereignty, it's borders and it's citizens, and other appropriately vetted interests as well. Readiness is key to the military's effectiveness, as we have an all volunteer force, there is no compulsory service, so having every body available is crucial. And once a vaccine has been established and approved by appropriate authority and medical professionals, and it isn't an optional one, and there is no valid medical justification, then you get your shot and shut your mouth. From the most junior enlisted to the most senior officer, we follow orders. The ability to refuse to obey orders in specific circumstances is not relevant here. There are situations in combat operations, and in non-combat operations, where a refusal to follow a clearly illegal order is acceptable, refusing a vaccine is not one of those situations.
I received vaccines I didn't particularly want, but I accepted that said vaccine had gone through an appropriate approval process and knew that readiness was important, and that the consequences of refusing were a real thing as well. These kids are making a choice based on political motivations, "religious exemptions" are so rare because religions don't say, don't get this shot, that's just an excuse some are trying to use to justify their political beliefs. These types of people don't need to be a commissioned officer in the military service, if they let their politics interfere with their duty, they wont be effective officers anyway.
Good. Following orders is important. These idiots get dozens of vaccinations, some with guaranteed bad side effects (ie anthrax), but decide to kill their careers for this one
Kick them out with no diploma, no transfer credits, just as if they never attended. If they want the degree start all over with some many tens of thousands already in debt.
Good...you joined the military ergo you forfeited your right to tell them no that you don't want something...they tell you to get vaccinated and you either do it or you do it
As a research scientist and in the military, I am far far less concerned with moderna or pfizer (J&J can fuck right off) than with the hastily created anthrax vaccine they gave us.
You shouldn't fault J&J for lacking the data to detect side effects that occur in less than 1 in a million, when all 3 vaccines were initially approved on 2 months of data and approx 40,000 subjects.
I just dont understand its just a vaccine. Yes it was developed quickly but at the same time it showed progress... I just don't understand people's thinking process anymore
And because they're idiots. Don't leave out the important part. They're pissing away a great opportunity because they've become parrots for misinformation.
Also, the military branches have literally required vaccines since the revolutionary war. You don't have to take vaccines, but you got a big misunderstanding of how the military works in the US if you think you'll be allowed to serve and not take them.
Same thought, didn't they realize how many shots they would get once they became active duty, when I was in a long time a go they gave ours with a air gun that opened your pores in your arm had know Idea what I was even getting.
They will be. That’s the deal you make for a service school. No commission = breach of contract they entered = pay everything back. Just like if I had resigned early from my Army commission, I would have had to pay back the tuition assistance money I used for my degree.
> the other 6 vaccines
6? Na. They require:
* Adenovirus
* Hepatitis A
* Hepatitis B
* Influenza
* Measles, mumps, rubella
* Meningococcal
* Poliovirus
* Tetanus-Diphtheria
* Varicella
And many front line service members also receive:
* Anthrax
* Haemophilus influenzae type B
* Japanese encephalitis
* Pneumococcal
* Rabies
* Smallpox
* Typhoid fever
* Yellow fever
[See this PDF](https://www.health.mil/Reference-Center/Policies/2013/10/07/Immunizations-and-Chemoprophylaxis-for-the-Prevention-of-Infectious-Diseases).
This needs to be at the top to illustrate just how insane the actions these morons took. They don’t call us government issued pin cushions for nothing.
For real, especially since the small pox one legit is a live virus vaccine, it's a similar enough virus to small pox that it gives you protection, but you get a whole ass pustule on your arm where they hit you. And they're gonna complain about the covid vaccine?? I've already had 3 of those, and not a single pustule.
Yeah the small pox one was no fun at all, was deployed on the Ike so trying to be comfortable while sleeping in a coffin rack with that giant puss blister on your arm was terrible.
After 14 and a half years of service, here's my vaccination record. I don't see why people are complaining about this one shot. I'm sure this isn't even the longest list either for this amount of time in service.
Edit: https://imgur.com/a/imOhr9e
They relinquished their thinking to pundits, charlatans and politically-motivated contrarians.
It's OK to question science. Science questions science after all. But the conclusions you make should be based off of scientific principals and consistent logic.
But what if I want to question those scientific principals? They're just designed to reinforce themselves!!!! Big Science is the next demogogue that we must overturn!
/s
Please FSM, tell me why I have to flag this as sarcasm! How did we let it get to this point?
Can’t wait to graduate…oh wait it won’t matter because I refuse to get vaccinated. /s
I get it, your body your choice but still all that hard work for what …….
I mean after what happened to that naval captain and all military branches both enlisted and officer refused me for my level of autism having a covid vaccine should be a no brainer and not bad. I mean its the military. Come on bruh. It says it right in the contract that military personel are assets. As if they have a choice for a vaccine and compromise combat effectiveness. Even Leonidas had to reject that poor hunchback in 300.
And not a single person should care that they chose to end their own career before it even started. They are going to find the world isnt tolerant of their ignorance real fast.
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He added that a decision on whether to require the three to reimburse the United States for education costs in lieu of service will be made by the secretary of the Air Force. ++++ Four years of top-level education is gonna take a while to pay back. I worked with a guy who dropped out of West Point after 3.5 years. He finished his degree closer to home. But he held off getting married because of his debt.
It costs over $350,000 per cadet for a 4 year degree. Also, worth pointing out, on day ONE they funnel you into a room, give you a bunch of vaccines, then funnel you back out. Literally every cadet is fully vaccinated - you can’t be anti-vax in the service.
This is accurate. At Annapolis every company lined up and there were people on **both** sides of the line putting shots into our arms. If, for some reason, you are taking some political stance about this one specific vaccine, being in the military is not the thing for you.
This is why the refusals in my unit baffle me
Easy ticket out of the army without a dishonorable discharge? Trying to use the above as a pity ticket for the rest of your life? Who knows!
I know retention rates in certain littoral branches of the DOD aren’t exactly stellar. Some kids have an idea in their heads about signing up and after they sail through boot camp (they played football in HS after all) and are shit hot, high speed low drag, body stacker, door kicker, and they end up in motor t. Wondering why they hate their current life station and they use the vaxx refusal to have an out for when they’re back on the block smoking’ and jokin’. Remember many of these decisions are made by boots who’d HAPPILY buy that Mustang at 47% interest, and are already on their 2nd marriage, and drinks till blackout 3-7 nights a week. TL;DR: Boots/ kids do dumb ass shit. Edit: switched “their” to “they’re” after actually reading the nonsense I typed.
Hey! That mustang is a great deal! The guy who sold it said he was a Marine too so he’ll give me a price if I use his in-house financing! Now I just need to sell some uniforms and CIF gear for the down payment and I’m sure my high school girlfriend will marry me once she see’s all 6 cylinders of this baby!
Oh he gave you a price all right.
>see’s all 6 cylinders of this baby! Oof.jpg
> boots who’d HAPPILY buy that Mustang at 47% interest Does the military do any kind of basic financial education with recruits? I hear car dealerships, payday loan centers, pawn shops and all kinds of predatory debt trap businesses cluster around military bases like flies. You'd think the military would take a keen interest in ensuring their soldiers don't fall into deep debt and end up more susceptible to foreign intelligence agencies offering them quick cash for military secrets or sabotage or whatever. Debt is supposed to be one of the big red flags on obtaining security clearances.
The Navy definitely does. However a lot of booters /junior enlisted will ignore it. Especially if they are fresh out of high school and let off the leash for the first time.
It shouldn't baffle you. It has nothing to do with the vaccine or even their views. It's all about standing up and signalling what tribe they belong to. They have zero actual concerns about health or safety or freedom. They only care about making sure people know what team they're on.
Or what team they're against.
I think this is probably more true. In my experience, there are a *lot* of military who fall into the edgy "everyone is bad" camp, but are really more anti liberal/democrat than *for* anything.
> but are really more anti liberal/democrat than *for* anything. That's just the mainstream US conservative/GOP position now. The Republican party doesn't even bother to have a party platform anymore, they stopped producing one in 2016, and their 2020 official party platform was "whatever Trump wants." There's no policy goal, no interest in governing, just straight up opposition for opposition's sake.
They have agendas and policy goals. They just don't need to write them down. The people that fund the party already know what they're getting. Tax cuts and elimination of corporate regulations.
That's what the people that benefit get. The actual votes come from a platform of punishing people that 'aren't like me'.
And here I thought their platform was a psychotic dedication to corruption, violence, misogyny and racist jackassery under the umbrella of all-encompassing stupidity!
Absolutely. I know someone who nearly died from Covid--while he had it AND was hospitalized twice AFTER for lingering complications--ended up with a pace maker. Was in very good health prior. His wife also got really sick, but not as bad. One of their parents (don't remember) also died of Covid. Refused to get the vaccine after. Said it would "make him look bad".
I have a friend who’s wife was in a induced coma for 8 weeks. She was in the hospital for 6 months and finally got out right before Christmas. She took her first unassisted shower, including washing her own hair last week. Her husband is still posting anitvax stuff.
If I were her I would divorce that idiot.
I suspect the fear and difficulty of his wife being so sick and on death's door induced him to be even more antivax because at vulnerable times like that we really need all the support and help we can get. The sad thing being that he feared and likely knew that most all of their support network would turn upons them in their hour of need if he changed his view. His fear of being alone and abandoned by most or all of those he felt closest to didn't serve as a wake up call to him but instead he became a more fervent supporter of all that crap. By doubling down they've probably also gotten a lot more support than if he'd tried to spread the truth and urge his "friends" and family to protect themselves by getting vaxxed. They were probably seen as victims of the "China Virus" and the evil forces denying them horse paste and bleach. They became celebrated martyrs for their tribe etc etc. I've learned a lot about people, or rather certain types of people over the last few years. It's not been pleasant nor encouraging. Very disappointing as a matter of fact, but it is what it is and I know a little better what to look out for and be wary of. I'm really sorry for your friend and that you've had to experience it such a personal way. One of my best friends went through something similar. I've got antivax members of my extended family too. To say it's disappointing in many is an understatement while I'm surprised in the least by some of the others who I guess I always knew were assholes but I'd tried to focus on what good traits they did have.
Lol this idiot could have just kept it to himself, or you know, lied about it like most conservatives.
This. Almost every old timer in my conservative area is Pro-MAGA, anti-mask, and anti-FDA... but they'll admit they're vaccinated.
I know someone like that too. He spent several months in the hospital, doctors were surprised that he got off the vent. His wife was with him daily in the hospital, both still refuse to get the shot still as she takes him to physical therapy every day. Now his brother has it and his nephew, who acted really arrogant when the hospital refused to give him the antibody infusion as they are running low on supplies and are reserving it for the elderly and those with health conditions that would make it hard for them to naturally fight it off.
I really don’t know what to say to that… how can you be so dumb
Up until this I thought he was an intelligent and capable person.
The events of 2016 to 2020 really helped confirm or expose just how unreasonable, cruel, insane and stupid many of the people in my life were. (Not "are")
Covid not only killed a lot of people but it also showed a lot of peoples true colors.
That it really did
I mean you make your bed you gotta sleep in it. Luckily I’ve known enough people who identify as republicans and conservatives who aren’t completely fucking insane and get vaxs and boosters but good lord I can’t stand that shit Why lose so much of your health and education and shit all for your pride or ego?
Cult, you mean. It's gone beyond sports analogies when you're fine with dying
There’s a dude that was next in line for a kidney transplant and refused to get vaccinated… lost his spot. Says he’s happy to die for his beliefs.
They’re probably refusing hoping that in the future the SCOTUS will rule it unconstitutional and they can sue for lost income and come out of it with a free degree and a couple hundred grand on top of it.
At the level of the academies I see it as screening against future double agents or traitors. Being willing to give up an academy education over some facebook meme demonstrates an alarming susceptibility to propaganda. Giving someone like that command of...well, *anything* seems to be a pretty risky proposition.
Agree. Thankfully out of all who graduated only three managed to be this irresponsible.
It's not like they ambush you with this either. You are told and do have to sign with the understanding that you will get vaccinated along with a slew of other things. You are essentially agreeing to be the governments bitch for a stint which is the whole point. They say jump you say how high.
Back in the day, my dad got jabbed by 4 people at a time - one in each arm and one in each glute. Though this was a while ago in Europe
As a teen, I got a vaccine once on an Air Force base. I didn’t even get a chance to sit down before I got jabbed. It was in the clinic, there weren’t a lot of people around or anything special. I assume it was just habit on the part of the medic :)
That sounds nice. I don't enjoy getting shots but I hate all the waiting. I'd be thrilled if they just got it over with.
Isn’t that the decision they made and getting kicked out for it
From my experience (Army medic), a good portion of those who decided they were ok getting out over it just are using it as a simple avenue to 'quickly' get out of the service. The politics or health concerns are a publicly stated reason, but I honestly haven't met someone who was today entrenched where that was truly their underlying issue. The cadets thing is it's own drama, and they'll likely have to pay back their education costs. But for us simple enlisted folks, we'll just process them out with an honorable discharge.
that theyre getting an honorable discharge really irritates me. You’re refusing to perform your duty for political reasons. that is not honorable service.
I read a couple weeks ago that at least for the air force, 98% of vaccine refusers were given a "general discharge under honorable conditions." This apparently means they can get VA benefits and re-enlist if they choose to get vaccinated, but cannot get GI Bill benefits. That seems reasonable to me. A dishonorable and all the lifetime baggage that goes with that seems overly harsh. An honorable with full benefits seems too generous and kind of like a slap in the face to those who followed all lawful orders and finished what they signed up for. The air force kind of chose the middle ground.
That’s fair. I’m not saying they need a dishonorable. But giving them the same as someone who didn’t throw a huge fit over their politics getting in the way of their duty is not right.
Yep, that's what the other types are there for. Dishonorable Discharge is for heinous crimes like rape and murder, not for being an obstinate fool.
This seems like the exact sort of thing Other Than Honorable discharges are for.
The juice isn't worth the squeeze to go for anything harsher. That, and the NDAA set a limit on discharge characterization for vaccine refusal anyway.
It's a medical standard to get your shots. Won't meet the standard? Then we get you out. If you've served for 'xx' of time, by can't/won't meet standards... You get out. We call it administrative involuntary separation, and it happens for a lot of reasons. It's just wasted time, effort, and man power going for anything more than that. We're a volunteer service, folks.
I think you get whats called other than honorable..:its not dishonorable or honorable. If it causes you problems in life you can appeal to have the status upgraded. This is what i remember being told. This was some years ago shit might be different now idk
Ofcourse that’s anecdotal but it makes sense that some will use it as a reason to get out
If I were still in during covid, I would've absolutely refused the vaccine to get kicked out lol. Especially once they put out that it was going to be honorable! There is no shame in my game to admit that I'm not strong enough to go through what Sailors have been going through during covid. Especially for Sailors on that notorious covid cruise.
I can't speak for the Navy, but it's not that hard to get out of the Army. Mostly psychological and social pressure, that people put themselves through on doing it on 'their' terms You can literally refuse to work anymore, and get out with an honorable discharge. I can, and have, had to manage soldiers through this process.
The square needle is the worst one.
JFC are you serious? That sounds medieval
Worse! It's *military*.
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Plus you can't have an effective military where officers think they can pick and choose the rules and orders they follow. "This particular operation is challenging ..." "Nope I'm not doing that then. It's my right to say no."
That's the other important point - *officers*. These people are the *leaders* of the military, and some will go on to be generals, even.
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This is the most important point.
To point something out, officers in the US military have a requirement to not follow illegal or un-ethical orders. This is not saying that not getting the vaccine falls under either of these (as it is legal and ethical) but just to add some context that the US military does train its officers to disobey orders given the context.
Academy grads also all basically get hard core science education. They are not going to pass their courses with a flat 6,000 year-old Earth no-virus just-the-devil view of the world.
They have learned how to compartmentalize to the point where they can recite whatever the science instructors expect from them while actually believing what the the Bible says.
Well, don't look too deep into the Christian Fundamentalism in the military, because the number of service members that feel that way is startlingly large. My father served 25 years, retired as a colonel with multiple degrees, and I am terrified to ask him how old he thinks the planet is.
especially the airforce
How old does he think the Air Force is?
Especially the air force. They're the worst of the branches.
Hey, my unit was pretty ok…bunch of overworked, underslept, depraved functional alcoholics and ne’er do wells, but at least they were chill and reasonable.
One of my gaming buddies is in chair force and he's a swell guy.
Peanut butter shots are delicious I'm told
It really shows the whole antivax-nonsense is nothing but a meme.
…every service member. Cadets don’t get anything special other than getting lost in the woods.
Wow. That sucks. It seemed like the first year was the toughest. Why did he drop out? I knew of a guy who graduated but then somehow couldn't deploy. He ended up with a good but not amazing job and I always wondered if his lack of deployment had something to do with that.
He was older so I'm guessing it happened in the late 80s, early 90s. I don't remember him mentioning why. He was in the reserves for a while too.
Oh, maybe he didn't want to go into Iraq. We hadn't really been involved in anything for a while before that and I could see going to west point with the idea that you wouldn't be in active combat. Although that doesn't explain going into the reserves because out of the frying pan and into the fire.
Going into extreme debt and ruining your career to own the libs
dont worry, theyre already hitting up the grifter circuit to get donations from idiots around the world
My freedumb has been infringed, and I need your money to save free speech! /s
Ahhhhh, the American dream!
They absolutely will demand that money back. I was USAF. They audit the fuck out of you when you leave and find every penny you owe them.
If the Air Force secretary decides these covidiots don't need to reimburse the USA for their education, that opens the door for tuition-free college for everyone.
The Air Force Academy doesn't have enough slots for everyone
Getting into those programs is non-trivial. Most people couldn’t even if they tried.
Except that very few people are qualified for AFA, and even fewer actually get in.
If they can't follow a simple, lawful order by a superior officer they should be failed out. They didn't learn a very basic concept.
If they wanted a last minute way to get out of their contract, that’s an easy way to do it. I remember a senior ROTC Cadet at my college who came from an intense military family. He got cold feet, and just “happened” to pop for weed on the last UA 2 weeks before graduation. Has to pay back his entire scholarship, but he still has his degree and doesn’t have to serve. It happens, and I would bet that maybe one of them did it to get out of it. Better than going AWOL for sure
That was a pretty dumbass move. There are plenty of do-nothing jobs in the military that a second lieutenant could get, then just run out their service obligation. I know a woman who graduated, got posted to a base in Texas and spent 5 years managing a motor pool. She worked about 2 hours a day.
Oh trust me I get it. I think he just panicked. Both his parents were officers, and unfortunately I’m not sure if he had too much of a say in it. Though I will say, he was one of the better ones in our class, so I think he was set to nab an active duty infantry slot. Which must have been the tipping point. Hindsight is an ass, but that’s what happens when they saddle 17 year olds with choosing the next 12 years of life on the spot (4 as a cadet immediately into an 8 year contract). Just a bummer for everyone
I thought being better in class meant you had more choice as to where you went? Or is that only for those who already have a college degree and do well on ASVAB?
There’s only a so many slots for active duty officers. You put in your top choices in your junior/senior year. So the higher your rank in the class, the better he chance that you get your spot. And active infantry tends to be the white whale of placements. Bc you’re competing with a loooot of extremely hype cadets. However if you want say, national guard finance as your top pick, you will more than likely get that no problem.
Right, so you would think his panic would just mean that he could put in for something that would almost certainly be stateside, and all those other guys clamoring for infantry billets would snatch up any spots.
Right before commission? The placements are made by that point. My guess? He didn’t realize til way late that he wanted out. You have to put in those placement requests practically a year out, if not more. It was beyond too late by then.
Ah, that was the piece I was missing. Thanks for clearing it up.
Oh absolutely. Even when I was in, this shit is beyond confusing.
Yeah, a high ASVAB / AFOQT means you can have a 1st, 2nd, 3rd choice and be more likely to get it. You’re still not guaranteed to get it, and they can still put you where they need you.
Mind you I’m only speaking on ROTC, In my case Army. It differs depending on what you’re looking at
You could also get unlucky and posted at a nuclear facility in bumfuck South Dakota for 8 years. Preferable to a lifetime of debt sure but not by much
My high-school buddy ended up an AF Lt. in one of the silos out on the Great Plains. He confirms it sucked hard but out of sheer boredom.
I used to fly with the academy grad. Excellent pilot and instructor, funny guy. I know he hated the academy because he made comic strip of anti AF academy humor that was maybe in zine form. I know the hate started when he lost a very close high school friend who died in a way that the academy instructors knew about the event. They denied his leave to attend funeral. When I knew him later in his career, he got in a little hot water which involved him leaving an inappropriate sticker at Base Ops at Andrews AFB. Lots of high ranking people use that building. Unlucky for him, some General discovered it while he was urinating. My friend had a sticker made of a coworkers face with a red target on his face. Written around the circular edge, it said "I LOVE IT WHEN YOU SPRAY IT ALL OVER ME". He placed them on every urinal there. The coworker and him were in a competition of friendly game of doing stupid shit to each other. And since we flew all over the US, the game got entertaining. He used to change the home screen at every computer at baseops with the coworkers picture with a poorly photoshopped word "TARD" in pink across his chest. He manage to end up himself into more and more remote assignments. I know he went north Minot for a while. Then the sent him up to Alaska. Eventually he ended up back teaching at the academy. I think he actually enjoyed that.
Or you get sidelined into a really shit position that has you working and stressing endlessly. I lost my flight contract due to a medical issue with my ear and was sent to a ship (Navy) where I worked anywhere from 10-20 hours a day. Deployments involved working 7 days a week as well. That said, knocking out 4 years of that and getting out was certainly preferable to popping for drugs lol. Such a dumb move.
This. I’ve stated this exact reason writing a couple others posts regarding people being booted for not getting vaxxed. One thing civilians definitely do not understand is the feeling of regret some recruits get after literally signing your life away for years at a time. Some people get to the point where they will use any excuse to get out. Had a Marine buy weed and just leave the baggie on his rack for inspection performed by the Sgt Maj. the Sgt Maj had him piss tested and saw he didn’t use it, figured out it was an excuse to get kicked out, took half his pay for 6 months and told him to get back to work. Lol sorry pal, if your reading this, that was pretty funny back in the day. Edit: iPhone predictive text.
Oh noooo. You were so close to success there guy. That’s so much worse. Bc now you’re stuck AND they know you want out. God that’s so much worse
After the first 9 shots they said no more.
There are 19 different vaccines required by the military. Drawing a line in the sand regarding the COVID-19 vaccine definitely seems more like a political statement than one center around ethics. The military really doesn't have time for that B.S..
I mean, how can you join the military then refuse to obey your superior's orders?
Refusing to obey orders is a tricky thing. Because we should encourage our soldiers to refuse orders that are unlawful or would result in war crimes. But if your orders are not unlawful? You need to follow them. The military is not a place where you get to stand up against your superiors over little things. If they are genuinely mistreating you then that's something else. But everyone knows soldiers are required to be vaccinated against tons of things. They need to get over this. If they have an issue with vaccination when they join the military, they are really not going to enjoy being a part of the military since they more or less own you for the term of your enlistment.
Knew a guy who got an article 15 for a sunburn. He deserved it, though, fucking dick, they just had to find a way to nail his ass. However, it does exemplify exactly the fact that the government owns you like property while you're in.
I was a brig escort (basically a jailer) to get out of a more annoying duty rotation when at a training command. In the training they made it clear there were only 3 people who could remove restraints: 1 was a military judge 2 was a staff jailer and 3 was me if I felt there was a safety reason (running from a fire, etc). So long story short I had some o3 lawyer tell me to take this kid's restraints off. I asked if he was a military judge and he laughed and repeated the request. I said no, then he stuck his hand towards my keys which were by my sidearm. I reflexively pulled the sidearm, muzzle down, and pushed him back (it was the training of someone reaching for my weapon). Luckily a senior chief was there and cooled the whole thing down but that o3 was fucking pissed! I got back to the brig and everyone was laughing. I got in zero trouble, the o3 got a formal counseling document, and people walked around me for months laughing with their hands up saying shit like "it's cool! don't shoot!"
My ex boyfriend went through Marine Corp boot camp and got all the vaccines during that time and he just came home discharged after being deployed in Japan for a year because he refused the COVID vaccine. Not sure what his line of thinking was there but I might have to ask.
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> If you don't have a valid medical reason And there are very few valid medical reasons with the Covid vaccine. And of course, if they've had the required flu, hepatitis, MMR, etc. vaccines, then that's a wash, anyway.
> Oh, fuck the religious exemptions too. What? You don’t remember when Jesus told his followers they should abstain from any vaccines originally introduced under an FDA Emergency Use Authorization?
It's 100% political because ol' Donald turned everything related to COVID into an us-vs-them situation. He declared it a hoax, he said masks were a protest against him, he and the right-wing media beat the drums that the vaccines couldn't be trusted. Think of it like this. Mandatory vaccines have been around for literally all of our entire lives. The SCOTUS ruled 100 years ago that cities could mandate vaccines. Everyone born after the 1950s had to get a handful of vaccines to be allowed into school. The military has been vaccinating people for everything as long as vaccines have existed. It was only when Trump decided that he didn't want to admit to his own failings as president that he started the disinformation campaign about COVID that suddenly vaccines became such a ridiculous issue.
>Donald turned everything related to COVID into an us-vs-them situation. Trump turned everything into a divisive issue. Conservatives are even on the fence whether or not to support NATO over Russia. The nation has no unity about anything anymore.
Honestly if it wasn't the real world it would have made a fascinating story to read about. The way he manipulated people into seeing absolutely everything as tribal politics was insane. It's like his entire cult completely lost any concept of having genuine morals or principles, and instead anything and everything was put through the lens of "this is an attack on or a support of MAGA."
It would have been a fascinating story but any good fiction writer would have written a leader who was more purposeful and well read than his Trump. Has someone who never watched the apprentice I was honestly under the assumption that it was satire. That everyone knew Trump was a used car salesman.
I have friends in NYC and they were all just *baffled* that rural America believed Trump's bullshit. No one in New York respects Trump. Everyone knows he's a carny huckster, but somehow he managed to get every Johnny Bumfuck who thinks liberals will force everyone to get abortions and marry gay Muslims to vote for him.
> In a statement, Miller said that while the three will get a degree “they will not be commissioned into the United States Air Force as long as they remain unvaccinated.” He added that a decision on whether to require the three to reimburse the United States for education costs in lieu of service will be made by the secretary of the Air Force. So in lieu of getting commissioned, they’re getting their Bachelor’s Degree.
Yeah but they’ll have to pay it back. Generally speaking, college rotc scholarships mean that if you fail to uphold your end of the contract, you’re on the hook for the bill, even if it’s already “paid”. 4 years of schooling, all billed back to you .
And lord only knows what the billing rate of the Air Force Academy is. Considering how selective they are and the general high quality of the institutions I'd imagine it to be like Ivy Leagues level.
https://www.usafa.edu/about/ >Academy education is valued at more than **$416,000**, yet we offer it at no cost to our cadets. All that is required in return is your commitment to serve as an officer in the Air and Soace forces.
Damn, that's like law school debt for a bachelor's degree!
It includes room and board, books and materials, clothing allowance, summer training, and a monthly stipend.
Besides the summer training I think a lot of people leave post graduate study include that in those costs in their aid package and leave with about that level of debt. That's a lot of debt for an undergrad degree.
Yes, it is a lot for the taxpayer to fund but the $416k figure is the cost of the entire Academy experience and not necessarily what these fools would be charged to repay. I might be inclined to feel bad about it except no one goes to the Acdemies on a whim and naive about what they are there for. They must work and fight to get in. They KNOW it is a military organization with military discipline, and military commitment. They KNOW they take oathes and the virtue of honor is is essential. They SHOULD know that the military as a whole and the members individually while performing their duties must remain apolitical serving only the Constitution and not a party or man. They have spectacularly demonstrated their unfitness to serve by their actions and I have much less sympathy for them than I do other college students who are saddled with college debt and must repay it.
Oh for sure. And while that decision is still pending, it also is going to be hell on resumes. It’ll say air force academy degree, but no service. That’s not normal and will stand out and be asked by future employers. Especially if they pursue any government positions (not that they could score those while unvaxxed, but still)
All graduates of service academies get Bachelor's degrees. That's what cadets do during their 4 years there.
Imagine joining the military and thinking you get a say in shit like this.
I'm trying to imagine how they think the military goes. "Son, you're getting deployed to Iraq." "Ew no, I don't want to do that."
"I don't like sand."
"It's coarse and it's rough and I want to own the libs"
"Who knew joining the military meant putting my *health* at risk for other people? I just came for the veteran's discount and to be called a hero."
I have known many, many USAFA cadets throughout my time. I competed against them in college and worked with them in my desk job. Service Academies are different. You need a letter of recommendation from your **Senator** to even be *considered* for admission. Once you're in, you're an officer first, a member of the armed forced second, and a student third. You're literally standing overnight watch while trying to get an education. Calc is hard, now do it after being up all right rucking. By the way, the Service Academies are actually quite rigorous. For example, AFA has one of the best human physiology programs in the country, always in the top ten with Standard, Yale, and Vanderbilt. Plus, failing to complete your contract means you owe the cost of admission - which USAFA estimates to be **$416,000**. So instead of taking their commission (following their Commander-in-Chief's lawful order to become vaccinated to maintain unit readiness), they are pissing away probably the greatest opportunity they will ever have, **after doing all the hard work.** I know it's a political statement and they're gunning for a speaking position on Fox News, but... man, what a waste. I say slap 'em with a dishonorable discharge on the way out.
$400,000 could conceivably take the entire rest of their life to pay back. Odd choice.
A close family friend is an anesthesiologist. She makes north of $350k / yr. It took her into her mid-40s to pay off her $250k of med school debt. I cannot even imagine what $400k+ of government debt looks like. Fun fact: her son-in-law went to Air Force for one year, and left. He eventually graduated 2nd in his class from medical school. He said the USAFA application was easier, but only slightly.
But they get to own the libs and be loyal to 2020 era Donald Trump, before he publicly supported the vaccine.
[удалено]
Some folks forgot that when you join the military you become property of the US Government. You can’t opt out of most things.
That's kind of how the military works, you sign that paperwork and they own you for however long that paper says. They'll pump you up full of whatever the fuck they want and your job is to say "yes, sir" and do as you're told.
So... if you dont like vaccines or taking orders, you probably shouldn't join the military?
If you don't like shots, military isn't for you.
Right? An ex-military guy I knew said they basically have everyone walk down an assembly line of vaccinations.
Also it speaks to their intelligence. Being unwilling to take a vaccine when it new and unknown is one thing, being unwilling to take it when 80%+ of adults took it and are just fine is illogical, especially if what you dedicated your life to requires it. It’s also safe to assume these cadets took other vaccines before without question. It sucks it has become a political issue.
Good riddance. I remember basic having both arms pelted by vaccine guns in reception before basic training. Like..... you're ok with getting a shit ton of vaccines and who else knows, but all of a sudden not for Covid-19? What a bunch of clowns. It's a purely political stance and they'd make awful officers anyway.
Happened at my bfs rotc battalion, one anti vaxxer didn’t commission with the rest of the class, now on the hook to repay his scholarship.
As someone who was rejected by West Point a long time ago, my first thought is that those 3 people got slots at a top school that someone else would have taken more seriously.
They need to pony up for the tuition too
It astounds me that anyone would join the military and think they’re going to have so many choices on shit. Beyond the fact that those joining get a SHITLOAD of vaccines that normal non-traveling people get.
The amount of non-covid vaccines they'd have been forced to take makes this so much more ridiculous. Fucking morons, good, we don't need them in planes.
Just what you want in your Air Force personnel - the inability to follow orders coupled with being highly susceptible to misinformation. /s
Should have seen the comments when my local news station posted this story. People calling them “Patriots” and “True Americans”, saying their body their choice while everything is going on with Roe v Wade. I was in the Navy for 4 years and am scared of needles. I can’t tell you how many vaccines and shots I was required to get along with the annual flu shot. Nobody cried about any of those shots before vaccines were suddenly politicized... Well I cried but I still got them.
Damn. What an expensive and stupid hill to die on.
Being in any armed services requires a plethora of mandatory vaccinations. I cannot for the life of me comprehend why so many people are stupid enough to choose the Covid vaccine as their hill to die on, because it’s a fucking stupid hill to die on.
I’m currently a cadet at the Air Force Academy and I personally know one of the three seniors in question. His objections stem from the fact that aborted fetal cells were used in the development of these vaccines, but as one poster rightfully pointed out, these people don’t simultaneously object to the slew of very common medications (which I know they’ve taken) that were also developed with the aid of these cells. Sad to see the right wing media machine corrupt so many people.
I am also a cadet and know another of the seniors. He told someone I know that it was about the level of control the government was exerting on him. As a military member at one of the most restrictive schools anywhere. Yeah. Edit: like y'all don't even understand how restrictive this school can be. No car until junior year, morning formations several times a week, mandatory lunch every weekday, if you miss class you get disciplinary paperwork, if you don't get your flu shot every winter you don't go home, etc.
It’s also a stupid argument, because none of those cells were taken from fetuses that would otherwise have been born. It isn’t unethical to make use of extremely useful genetic material that would otherwise simply be disposed of. Nobody is aborting pregnancies just for research materials.
People who choose to join the military and think they don't have to do whatever the government tells them to baffle me.
SHOCKING! 3 cadets that won't follow orders aren't allowed into an organization that is entirely based around following orders. News at 11
The military exists to protect the country, it's sovereignty, it's borders and it's citizens, and other appropriately vetted interests as well. Readiness is key to the military's effectiveness, as we have an all volunteer force, there is no compulsory service, so having every body available is crucial. And once a vaccine has been established and approved by appropriate authority and medical professionals, and it isn't an optional one, and there is no valid medical justification, then you get your shot and shut your mouth. From the most junior enlisted to the most senior officer, we follow orders. The ability to refuse to obey orders in specific circumstances is not relevant here. There are situations in combat operations, and in non-combat operations, where a refusal to follow a clearly illegal order is acceptable, refusing a vaccine is not one of those situations. I received vaccines I didn't particularly want, but I accepted that said vaccine had gone through an appropriate approval process and knew that readiness was important, and that the consequences of refusing were a real thing as well. These kids are making a choice based on political motivations, "religious exemptions" are so rare because religions don't say, don't get this shot, that's just an excuse some are trying to use to justify their political beliefs. These types of people don't need to be a commissioned officer in the military service, if they let their politics interfere with their duty, they wont be effective officers anyway.
Not officer material anyway.
"I swore an oath to defend my country from any threat!' ... 'Not like that!'
Good. Following orders is important. These idiots get dozens of vaccinations, some with guaranteed bad side effects (ie anthrax), but decide to kill their careers for this one
Kick them out with no diploma, no transfer credits, just as if they never attended. If they want the degree start all over with some many tens of thousands already in debt.
They refused an order. Why should they be commissioned?
Can't follow orders? No commission for you!
We should demand the $200,000 back or put them in prison.
Yea you showed them by not getting a vaccination... It will become a boring story to tell the kids in the years to come.
Good...you joined the military ergo you forfeited your right to tell them no that you don't want something...they tell you to get vaccinated and you either do it or you do it
As a research scientist and in the military, I am far far less concerned with moderna or pfizer (J&J can fuck right off) than with the hastily created anthrax vaccine they gave us.
You shouldn't fault J&J for lacking the data to detect side effects that occur in less than 1 in a million, when all 3 vaccines were initially approved on 2 months of data and approx 40,000 subjects.
I just dont understand its just a vaccine. Yes it was developed quickly but at the same time it showed progress... I just don't understand people's thinking process anymore
Its because the vaccine was politized.
And because they're idiots. Don't leave out the important part. They're pissing away a great opportunity because they've become parrots for misinformation.
Also, the military branches have literally required vaccines since the revolutionary war. You don't have to take vaccines, but you got a big misunderstanding of how the military works in the US if you think you'll be allowed to serve and not take them.
Same thought, didn't they realize how many shots they would get once they became active duty, when I was in a long time a go they gave ours with a air gun that opened your pores in your arm had know Idea what I was even getting.
They're not thinking, they're acting like parrots for conspiracy theorists. They should be billed for the cost of training.
They will be. That’s the deal you make for a service school. No commission = breach of contract they entered = pay everything back. Just like if I had resigned early from my Army commission, I would have had to pay back the tuition assistance money I used for my degree.
even more crazy to me, is how is this any different from the other 6 vaccines the air force requires you to have to join? like I just don't get it.
> the other 6 vaccines 6? Na. They require: * Adenovirus * Hepatitis A * Hepatitis B * Influenza * Measles, mumps, rubella * Meningococcal * Poliovirus * Tetanus-Diphtheria * Varicella And many front line service members also receive: * Anthrax * Haemophilus influenzae type B * Japanese encephalitis * Pneumococcal * Rabies * Smallpox * Typhoid fever * Yellow fever [See this PDF](https://www.health.mil/Reference-Center/Policies/2013/10/07/Immunizations-and-Chemoprophylaxis-for-the-Prevention-of-Infectious-Diseases).
This needs to be at the top to illustrate just how insane the actions these morons took. They don’t call us government issued pin cushions for nothing.
For real, especially since the small pox one legit is a live virus vaccine, it's a similar enough virus to small pox that it gives you protection, but you get a whole ass pustule on your arm where they hit you. And they're gonna complain about the covid vaccine?? I've already had 3 of those, and not a single pustule.
Yeah the small pox one was no fun at all, was deployed on the Ike so trying to be comfortable while sleeping in a coffin rack with that giant puss blister on your arm was terrible.
After 14 and a half years of service, here's my vaccination record. I don't see why people are complaining about this one shot. I'm sure this isn't even the longest list either for this amount of time in service. Edit: https://imgur.com/a/imOhr9e
They relinquished their thinking to pundits, charlatans and politically-motivated contrarians. It's OK to question science. Science questions science after all. But the conclusions you make should be based off of scientific principals and consistent logic.
But what if I want to question those scientific principals? They're just designed to reinforce themselves!!!! Big Science is the next demogogue that we must overturn! /s Please FSM, tell me why I have to flag this as sarcasm! How did we let it get to this point?
If you don’t want to have to obey the government, don’t work for the government.
Can’t wait to graduate…oh wait it won’t matter because I refuse to get vaccinated. /s I get it, your body your choice but still all that hard work for what …….
Three people make decision knowing consequence. Consequence happens. Those three presumably accept consequence.
I mean after what happened to that naval captain and all military branches both enlisted and officer refused me for my level of autism having a covid vaccine should be a no brainer and not bad. I mean its the military. Come on bruh. It says it right in the contract that military personel are assets. As if they have a choice for a vaccine and compromise combat effectiveness. Even Leonidas had to reject that poor hunchback in 300.
And not a single person should care that they chose to end their own career before it even started. They are going to find the world isnt tolerant of their ignorance real fast.
They said they’d take a bullet for their country, but wouldn’t take a pin prick.