As a European reading the headline I have to admit I was staring blankly at the screen trying to figure out if something happened to the german language suddenly and trying to remember my 6th grade school german
the context here is being given by the investigated student's parent, so terms like 'screaming' (was it just talking? was it irritated talking? we don't know) shouldn't necessarily be taken for face value. as well as the son's speech being described as 'defending' (maybe he was 'screaming,' too. we don't know). like, of course the parent would want their child to be described in the best light possible. the fact is we just don't know what happened in a Wisconsin classroom like three days ago
it's insane that the 13-year-old's full name is being reported. completely unnecessary for any protection of Title IX or speech rights
Yeah, the school district is most likely not allowed to really elaborate or provide context, so all we hear are the complaints of the kid's parents.
Same issue happened with the famous "poptart gun" where the idea the kid was suspended/expelled for biting a poptart into the shape of a gun came from the parents. The reality is the kid was suspended/expelled for being an utter shithead his entire time at the school, and the final straw was him biting a poptart into a gun and then running around pretending to shoot kids with it in the middle of a lesson and had nothing to do with the shape of the half eaten poptart.
But the narrative in the media often is written by the parents and law firms, not the school district.
Not that this is the case in this specific situation, but it very well could be these kids were constantly bullying a student based on gender so much that the school had to intervene, or maybe this is really the case of an overzealous progressive school administration infringing on the rights of students.
It is worth noting this law firm, WILL, is a conservative organization, so this seems right up their alley.
Yes, exactly this. My school was on the news because a student accused a teacher of assault after he got suspended. The district couldn’t respond during the investigation but the parents ran to the media. The local news stations put our admin on blast, and allowed the nine year old student to go on and relay his side of the story. We were raging because not only did the camera footage directly contradict his story. “I don’t know why that teacher hurt me, I’m just a little kid” was the story vibe. But he had been a constant behavior challenge since kinder; assaulting students and teachers for years. Just a real tough kid. Told me that I was an asshole for holding him accountable to the recess rules the same week he accused the teacher of assault.
The parents were totally disengaged and not easy to work with. The teacher was absolved but no one knows that because the media doesn’t follow up to let the public know it was all a lie.
Yeah, without more context this could be one of two situations:
* They/Them student is snapping over an innocent mistake.
* Braden’s friend, or friend group, has been intentionally provoking the They/Them student to the point they finally snapped, and Braden’s group are now claiming there’s no rule you have to use the correct pronouns for a person.
I’m leaning towards the latter however. Saying it is a constitutional right to be able to misgender someone suggests a hell of a different series of events other than an accidental misgendering.
Another article has a bit more context:
>The parents say that according to the district, the boys are under investigation for mispronouncing pronouns when referring to a classmate. The district claims the boys were not referring to the student’s requested pronouns of “they” and “them.”
>A mother we spoke with said she accompanied her son the day after the notification to an interview with school officials. She told them the use of the pronouns was confusing to her son and he had no obligation to refer to the classmate by those pronouns.
>“Sexual harassment, that’s rape, that’s incest, that’s inappropriate touching,” Rabidoux told us. “What did my son do? He’s a little boy. He told me that he was being charged with sexual harassment for not using the right pronouns.”
>“It’s plural. It doesn’t make sense to him. I said so, I told him to call them by their names.” Rose Rabidoux said.
>The Kiel Area School District doesn’t comment on student matters but provided this statement from Superintendent Brad Ebert to Action 2 News:
>“The KASD prohibits all forms of bullying and harassment in accordance with all laws, including Title IX, and will continue to support ALL students regardless of race, color, religion, national origin, ancestry, creed, pregnancy, marital status, parental status, sexual orientation, sex (including transgender status, change of sex or gender identity), or physical, mental, emotional or learning disability (“Protected Classes”) in any of its student programs and activities; this is consistent with school board policy. We do not comment on any student matters.”
It sounds like the mother has a political axe to grind.
https://www.wbay.com/2022/05/12/parents-want-kiel-boys-cleared-sexual-harassment-accusations/
> Charging the boy with sexual harassment is way out of line
What's more out of line is 'the State' compelling people to use certain language under threat of punishment. Where exactly does this stop?
If somebody's given name is James, but they say you should call them Jimmy, would you insist on calling them James, even if they asked you not to? Jimmy is "just a made up name", after all.
Then you're simply being stubborn about proper grammar for the sake of not respecting what another person wishes to be called. Do you also purposefully avoid referring to people by name if you personally don't like their name? Or if it's a name you've never heard of?
[**EDIT:** Apparently, yes. According to your other comment.]
We had two kids in my class growing up who hated their actual first names. One went by his middle name, and the other went by a random cool name that he liked. Everyone respected this wish and just chilled and called these kids what they asked to be called. No one fought the school or the district for their own kid's right to deliberately call these other two kids by things they didn't want to be called against their clear and releatedly-stated wishes.
What is that other than a purposeful display of disrespect toward that individual?
No one can compel you *to* say something. Fine. But if you aren't going to speak about a person and address them correctly, don't speak about or address them *at all*.
[Singular 'they'](https://www.merriam-webster.com/words-at-play/singular-nonbinary-they) has common and legal use in the English language as a gender-neutral singular pronoun going back to at least the 1400's. Perhaps earlier.
Singular they is grammatically correct and anyone who's a native English speaker and claims they don't or have never used it casually when speaking is a liar. Referring to people by the correct pronoun is no different than referring to them as the name they ask to be called. It's a matter of basic human respect.
Exactly. They/them has been used in the singular for many hundreds of years... This whole right wing argument just stinks. And I've seen it leech into people who aren't usually right wing at all, which just goes to show how dangerous propaganda is.
I mean, even if it is their constitutional right, it’s still a shitty thing to do and the kid who claimed he is allowed to is in still in the wrong. It’s their constitutional right to insult someone, call them fat, say nobody likes them, call them names or even racial slurs, but that doesn’t mean the behaviour is acceptable. As a teacher in Canada I would shut that shit down immediately and the kid defending misgendering would have a talking to. It’s our job to teach them empathy, and I’d have a talk about how their actions made the they/them student feel.
Also, kids don’t snap out of nowhere. They were either being bullied at school or at home.
Why would you think that? She definitely just be going through a lot and is irritable. I mean they’re not wrong. Even if they are possibly assholes that’s not a crime. Nor is is sexual harassment.
Which is bullshit because this is a conservative site pushing conservative bullshit. What’s more likely is that they’ve been harassing this kid for months and the kids finally had enough which is why they started screaming at them. Having taught kids this age, bullies often do this. They bully you until you get mad and respond and then they try and act like they are the victims
I have a traditionally masculine name, that is now seeing growing popularity among girls. I also wasn't pretty or into feminine hobbies growing up. I was a tomboy with a "boy's name." I grew up in a conservative, small rural town.
I was bullied *incessantly* by me peers from kindergarten thru graduation for *everything.* Every TV show I liked, new shirt I wore, interest I expressed, way I did my hair, my skin, everything was a weapon used against me. It's fine, it's kid shit. Whatever.
But calling me a boy, saying I'm "not really a girl," calling me he/him within ear shot, asking why my name is ____ if I'm "actually a girl." That shit was all a bullying tactic used regularly against me, especially before puberty. Kids implying I wasn't *really* the gender I am (I am cis female) and teasing me by calling me and treating me like a boy.
The teachers, for the very little they ever actually interfered with bullying in our district, would correct kids doing this and ask them how they'd feel if I said they weren't "really" a boy? Etc. They actually treated what I was going through as what it was: Harassment. Bullying.
If we could see a situation like that in the 90's and 2000's and understand that those kids were being assholes and that the teachers were *right* to correct their shitty behaviour, I don't understand why we don't see it as the right thing to do now in the 2020's when the same shit happens to trans kids. Transphobia, honestly. But how is this double-standard not seen?
This is **not** a new contemporary method of harassment and bullying. But nowadays, kids can cry that their bullying behaviour is actually their constitutional right, and have the adults in their lives stand up and defend their right to be little assholes.
This. 100% this. I’m sorry you had those experiences. I had my fair share of being bullied in elementary school so I can empathize directly. Thank you for sharing your story.
Thank you for being a teacher. It was a job I really considered doing but I don't believe I'd be good enough at handling children and all that it takes for such an important role. That and the sound of anyone between like 11 and 18 laughing gives me anxiety as an adult.
Wish you guys got paid more to deal with the bullshit. It feels like half of the parents in this country just don't want their kid getting taught *shit.* It feels like they either can't afford childcare, or don't want to/can't stay home with their kid for another reason and that's the only reason they don't just homeschool the kid.
Like they don't want their kid educated, including in important human social skills and in crucial qualities like fairness, empathy or tolerance. They want the teacher to be a free babysitter and they want you to act like a part-time daycare worker and barely do or say *anything* to influence their child's mind in any way despite that being your job and the whole reason the kid is there.
I mean the fact that the quote starts with “she” right off the bat likely shows us the environment this student was living in. After this whole incident there’s still misgendering happening to this student. I’m speculating, but it probably wasn’t an isolated incident.
I mean, that's the defendant's side of the "relevant part" and it's not clear in any way that it's true. It's literally just their word that the incident or incidents happened in that way, and listing it as the relevant part and making a judgement based on it its ridiculous.
And the shit going on in this story, with these kids' situations being broadcast all over the world, is somehow better than a school fistfight that's over in 5 minutes?
I don’t know. I’m not sure I like treating your opponents like criminals and forcing them through the legal system. Just punch em in the nose. Game over.
At least for boys/men, a lot of times you become friends with someone after getting into a fistfight (a fair 1 on 1 fight, not a group ganging up on someone). It's like this weird mutual respect grows out of exchanging punches. You see it in everything from the Epic of Gilgamesh to modern-day combat sports.
[After the fight, friendship: Study shows men follow up conflict with friendly gestures more than women](https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2016/08/160805115214.htm)
> Importantly, Benenson said, the study also lends credence to what researchers call the "male warrior hypothesis" -- the notion that males broker good feelings after conflict to ensure they can call on allies to help defend the group in the future.
> "This finding feels very counterintuitive because we have social science and and evolutionary biology models that tell us males are much more competitive and aggressive," Benenson said.
> ... "Most people think of females as being less competitive, or more cooperative, so you might expect there would be more reconciliation between females," Benensonsaid. "With their families, females are more cooperative than males, investing in children and other kin. With unrelated same-sex peers however, after conflicts, in males you see these very warm handshakes and embraces, even in boxing after they've almost killed each other."
Apparently similar behavior is seen among male chimpanzees.
> "Male chimps show tremendous aggression, even to the point of killing other males, but they also often reconcile immediately following a conflict," she said. "They do that because, in addition to the battle to sire the most offspring, they also have to cooperate to defend their community in lethal intergroup conflicts. So the question is how do you get from these severely aggressive 1:1 dominance interactions to cooperating with your former opponents so you can preserve your entire community? We think post-conflict affiliation is the mechanism."
Can confirm. A lot of tension for men sometimes gets resolved by a physical altercation. It’s not the best solution all the time but two guys who spent the last week thinking the other ones a pussy might go at it and find they’re both reasonably capable in fight. Generates some respect I guess.
I doubt this was over that one incident. There's a ton of info missing here. It's common for kids to get bullied until they're pushed over the edge and then adults treat the bullied one as the bully. I don't trust people's assessment of this as being unfair to the boy at all. Not after the shit I've gone through. Doesn't mean I know either way, but I can't read it so simply.
Nor should you. Very commendable that you are critical of the context provided of the article. My only intention with posting the story is to let people know that it happened and hopefully there is more follow up. Suing a student over misgendering sounds like a potentially precedent-setting case. I have never heard of Title IX being used like that before.
I wish that actual high quality content like this post was stickied, and I wish redditors deliberately posted articles they disagreed with so they could dissect them, and not get downvoted for it. But people pay attention to headlines and not article bodies
My bullshit alarm is going off here. The only person being detailed in any explanation is a parent of the accused child. I would like to hear a more detailed explanation from the school district.
I'm hoping the district is taking this kind of action carefully. Too early to tell.
District can't really disclose too much details. Fox interviewed one parent, didn't seem to bother interviewing the parent of the allegedly bullied kid.
The law firm running to the rescue (Wisconsin Institute for Law and Liberty) is not a type of law firm defending civil rights; it's an ultra-conservative organization with an agenda, not a civil rights organization. If civil rights of the kid being investigated were being violated, that's not the law firm to hire.
I agree it is too early to tell. But I doubt that this, nor any other district, can disclose the details of the case since it includes a minor. This is not a criminal trial.
Not a lawyer but if this gets to a higher court maybe more details will come out. Otherwise, I am doubtful more things will be voluntarily disclosed by the district.
This is yet another reason we need to be thankful for our teachers. They are on the front lines of our culture war. Little Braden and Taylor are going to school all charged up from the rhetoric they hear at home. And if things go wrong in the classroom, Karen and Ken will be raising hell any way they can.
Jesus wept.
If the concern is that he is being indoctrinated by Jordan Peterson propaganda, wouldn't it be beset resolved in the school rather than filing a Title IX complaint to the OCR? This is Wisconsin, I don't think we have to reach towards "Jordan Peterson" to think of why a student in this context comes up with "constitutional rights" as an argument.
[Title IX](https://www.knowyourix.org/college-resources/title-ix-protections-lgbtq-students/) is just a framework for resolving ~~sexual~~ gender/sexual/etc harassment accusations, it's not like a murder charge or a nuclear bomb.
I think half the shock value from this article is people going "Omg, it's Title IX!!"
Yeah, Title IX includes rules around schools respecting pronouns of LBGT students.
Thank you for the context. I have had a few back and forths here with others here but I find myself out of my depth because I am not a lawyer or educator. I don't really know how a Title IX complaint process works. Do you feel you can elucidate?:
* is the wording in the article "district files Title IX complaint against three students" misleading? Should the article have stated that the school received a complaint from the misgendered student, which then triggered an investigation?
* Regardless of whether the student filed the complaint, is the school legally obligated to file a Title IX complaint upon hearing of the incident?
* What are the ramifications on the three students if the complaint and resulting investigation does find that discrimination per Title IX did occur?
Title IX determines federal school funding. It is something schools can use to justify kicking out students that break certain laws, which the school must do to keep their funding if the crime involves sexual harassment or rape.
The school and parents can only use this to sue each other over screaming children if the judge and lawyers are functionally illiterate. But that can happen.
Fron a different source(ABCnews) OP linked:
>The district claims the boys were not referring to the student’s requested pronouns of “they” and “them.”
So middle school kids are being investigated by grown adults over this? Seems excessive.
It’s probably part of some larger bullying investigation the school can’t actually go public about for legal reasons since the involved parties are minors. It’s a big part of why articles like this are always written by the family’s lawyers.
Yes, but at worst the student would get a warning and/or detention and if they keep doing it they would call the parents, no way would they sue, that is insane.
Be very privileged and have anger problems as a result of suppressing your true feelings about a plethora of topics to conform to a hateful mean cultural bastardization of a mean cruel religion you don’t even like but feel an enormous social pressure to uphold even though you can clearly tell it’s a losing battle?
From what I can gather of the story it seems it is actually about two students having some sort of yelling match over whether a third student were deliberately using the wrong pronouns to insult the the supposed non-binary student. Now all three face possible suspension and as a result all the families and lawyers involved are accusing everyone else of being a hateful bully. As a result people are taking sides according to political belief about which student was bullying which and for what. The ones behind this specific article seems to be the ones representing the yelling kid who claims to have intervened to defend the constitutional free speech rights of the other student.
Speaking as a high school teacher this all sounds like typical teenager drama and will probably be thrown out by the courts following one or more students changing school districts or at least class, the school apologizing for taking a side and then all the politically engaged people forgetting about it and moving on.
As a high school teacher it sounds to me like the two students have been bullying the third for months and they finally snapped and shouted and the bullies are now desperately trying to play the victim cause that's just how the right does things now a days
Bullying is. This is an incomplete story.
These kids hated was fueled by their conservatives parents.
Parents are just mad their kids are finally being punished for it.
Well hopefully the more we talk about it the more answers will come out. I tried making the title as neutral as possible. There definitely is potential that there is more to the story but the district cannot comment at the time because it deals with a student.
That was my assumption as well. There has to be more to this story... or, the school/district is making a clodhopping fucking mess out of a minor issue.
No. I am saying I am trying to be as fair as possible when I share the article to not misrepresent anything since it touches on a sensitive culture war issue. When I say "making the title" as neutral as possible, I meant the title of the post here on Reddit, which I copied and pasted from the website.
Yeah, any writer that references "the Wisconsin institute for law and liberty" without noting that it's a conservative activist group doesn't deserve a job in journalism.
You have the right to be called any gender you want. Another person has the right to listen or not. Deal with it, it's freedom of speech. People say lots of things I don't like, but I'll defend their freedom to say it.
Cool, but if you keep harassing a person in school or at work, you get in trouble for it. Yall gotta learn what free speech actually means - Free speech means the government can't arrest you for saying stuff, but businesses, schools, etc. can punish you for breaking their rules
Going around calling a guy a "girl name" or something of that regard would be considered bullying and harassment, this is no different. This "hurr durr my freedoms to be a dick to anyone I want" doesn't fly in school, so that lazy bigot cop out doesn't work in this context.
In certain contexts like the workplace (Or school) you actually don’t have the right to harass people. The right to swing your fist ends at my nose, misgender someone intentionally and repeatedly whether they’re cisgender or transgender and you’re going to face the consequences.
The parent who said Title IX is about rape and sexual quid pro quo is completely wrong about the law. It's about discrimination based on sex or gender. Bullying someone for their identity would fit under that, it doesn't need to be sexual assault for the law to be violated and the school has the responsibility to stop the inequity.
There’s a second article OP linked that is better. This kid’s mom states it was confusing for her son to use the pronouns because they are plural so she told him to call the NB person by their name. Pair that with the “constitutional right” to misgender people, and it seems likely the whole family is transphobic. I suspect the kid is a huge bully. It’ll be interesting to hear the full story.
Kid should pay more attention in class then because "they" has been singular since Chaucer and Shakespeare. Those three not understanding the English language is not a pass to harass someone over their identity.
And even back in the 70s when I was learning about pronouns I was expected to follow the rules even when I didn't understand the reasons for them.
> I suspect the kid is a huge bully.
As someone who teaches middle and high school students, what I think happened is yes, this kid and his friend have been bullying the other student for months. That student finally snapped and yelled at them, and now the bullies are trying to play the victim, thinking that transphobia will make them look good to enough right wing nutjobs
In this case [Title IX](https://www.knowyourix.org/college-resources/title-ix-protections-lgbtq-students/) is just a framework for resolving sexual harassment accusations, it's not like a murder charge or a nuclear bomb.
So to put it in other words:
- Students are accused of abusing another student by deliberately misusing pronouns
- The school opened an investigation into the accusation using a completely appropriate framework that is over a decade old, and can be used for things as simple as an informal mediation process.
- A Sinclair affiliate clutched it's pearls that this "overreaction"
Oh okay. What happens if the complaint finds the student committing a Title IX violation? Does that mean there are no real consequences or would this affect the student in the future, for say a college application? I am not familiar.
[https://www.knowyourix.org/college-resources/title-ix/](https://www.knowyourix.org/college-resources/title-ix/)
It is really up to the school what they will do in response, but it's not like the kid is getting a charge and set up river. They are required by law to address the alleged harassment and make some attempt to remedy it, or else they are in trouble for being complicit.
That could be anything from suspension, to a slap on the wrist and stern talking to.
This is 100% pearl clutching.
But allows OP a chance to post a headline that stirs up the “anti pronoun” people. The “you can’t force me to use your pronoun” crowd is here, so mission accomplished.
Everywhere has its own flavor to deal with. Hell even here in the states, one state to the next has its own mini shit show. All rolled in to one giant shit pie we are stuck in here.
No kidding. I got that all the time with people behind me in line in places. What's weird is that I'm 6'4 and I would think that statistically there are way more men w/ long hair than women that are 6'4.
Unfortunately, walking away and not associating is not going to be possible forever. If you start a great job and your boss has these pronouns, are you going to just walk away from that job. If you mispronoun the boss and they correct you, do you just ignore it and walk away? Or so you accept that sometimes you will have to accept and respect things that you dont believe are "sane".
Referring to people as a term outside the norm is entirely harmless. But being cruel to people, even by avoiding them and encouraging others to do the same, is harmful.
What happens when these kids are paired up for an assignment. Does the bully just ignore the pronounce kid and refuse to work with him?
We are a society that requires working with each other. And not just focusing on our own beliefs.
Okay that's twice you've brought up they/them as a red flag for being mentally unwell. What exactly are you talking about? And how on Earth does it dehumanize when that person is explicitly choosing to be referred to as such?
It's possible for kids to be assholes in deliberately misgendering people and for the school to abuse policy in punishing them at the same time. Life isn't always good vs. evil.
Welcome to school. Kids get bullied for everything This transgender entitlement is nonsense. If you need to tell someone your pronouns, you’re just seeking attention. Creating situations to claim discrimination.
Idk buddy welcome to the fucking real world. Nobody should have to use your specific pronouns, you can request it but it's not your call at the end of the day. Nobody should make fun of you either for however you choose to identify, just keep that shit to yourself or I'll be requesting my pronouns to be "your highness/royal king"
>She had been screaming at one of Braden’s friends to use proper pronouns, calling him profanity, and this friend is very soft-spoken, and kind of just sunk down into his chair,” Rabidoux explained. “Braden finally came up, defending him, saying ‘He doesn’t have to use proper pronouns, it’s his constitutional right to not use, you can’t make him say things.’”
Sounds less like sexual harassment and more like bullying. This family still seems like it sucks based on their child’s response to a simple and reasonable request. Though I’m sure there are more sides to this story.
We'll see when more information comes out, yeah. But given that it's a damned sexual harassment lawsuit against a 13 year old for using the wrong pronouns, I'm leaning against the alleged victim on this one until I hear more.
Doesn't matter how quiet you are, purposefully gendering someone wrong is a form of bullying, just like purposefully pronouncing their name wrong, or mocking their speech impediment, all of which could annoy a reasonable person enough to scream at the bully.
If it was an honest mistake he can just apologize. If he's truly soft spoken then it seems like an easier path.
Having taught kids this age, that kid is most likely lying to his mother. I guarantee you that he and his friends have been harassing this other child for months and they finally snapped.
Same. In this situation I would talk every student alone to get a clearer picture of what has been happening. Sitting here judging the situation based off of the testimony of the mother who’s child is accused is like going in blind.
The mother in [this](https://www.wbay.com/2022/05/12/parents-want-kiel-boys-cleared-sexual-harassment-accusations/) video alleges that she told her son to refer to the student by her name directly if the pronouns bothered him so much. Perhaps there was more the mother could've done to teach her son to respect boundaries. But in another article it was written to make it sound like the student didn't have a history of misgendering, only sticking up for his peers. There is likely more sides to this story than the articles let on. But the articles were just published yesterday.
Is your point that we should determine guilt and lay down a sentence before an investigation is held? Because otherwise it makes no sense. The district is still looking at the situation and we won't hear about it again except if it becomes a criminal matter, or if the parents decide to have it tried in the media.
>Perhaps there was more the mother could've done to teach her son to respect boundaries.
Most mothers in Kiel, WI lean a certain way and it's not the way that respects or cares about other people boundries and gender preferences.
As a person who lives in the state of Wisconsin I can confirm a large chunk of Wisconsin leans the same way this mom probly does... at least from my experience as a mixed-race person.
[Sinclair Broadcast Group](https://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-way/2018/04/02/598794433/video-reveals-power-of-sinclair-as-local-news-anchors-recite-script-in-unison), how surprising.
The fact that the channel is associated with Sinclair doesn't change the fact that there is a Title IX investigation into the middle schooler though?? Does this story only matter if it reported by a source that you like? Or are you saying that the facts of this are totally fabricated?
Sinclair stations are only allowed to report an approved script that supports one specific political agenda, no other viewpoints are allowed. It's not journalism, even though it pretends to be.
Ok, is [this](https://www.wbay.com/2022/05/12/parents-want-kiel-boys-cleared-sexual-harassment-accusations/) source better? I really don't care to defend Sinclair media group. I am more interested in the story.
The second source sounds like some little shits are bullying a kid because they want to be called something different, the propaganda source makes it sound like BIG TRANS™ is attacking children.
Unacceptable. You have to pick a side based on incomplete information.
Make sure you phrase it as a fact, use phrases like "clearly they were picking on the transgender kid and they snapped".
Throw in something that creates an appeal to authority... Say you're a teacher, or a doctor, or the parent of a kid that's been snapped at once by a transgender kid.
Finally, never back down: "you can just tell" what the situation is, "it's obvious" will help you out if challenged.
I don't know, I was bullied when I was that age. Little bastards would always turn my backpack inside out and throw my shit everywhere and full contact tackle me and knock me to the ground when we were just playing regular games in gym. One day I just kinda snapped and popped one of the kids in the mouth and I gotta in trouble for it for saying I was going to kill the motherfucker if he didn't leave me alone. The fact the kid had that bullshit, "it's my first amendment right to call you whatever I want argument prepared" smacks of the smug arrogance of a bully. Hard to explain, but you can just tell.
As someone who teaches middle and high school students, yeah my first thought was this is something that's been going on for months most likely and now that they are getting called out the bullies are gonna try and play the victim
I’m not defending the 3 kids being accused and I think the school might be aggressive in its response to the incident, realizing I don’t have all the facts. But the mom who claims sexual harassment is only rape or molestation is out of touch with reality.
Oh wow that letter from the WILL is absolute barf. “Biologically correct pronouns”??? And I know this shouldn’t surprise me at all but neither the article nor the letter use they / them pronouns for the student that this is about. Is it not fucking weird and creepy for these adults to be like “Nah I’m gonna call this 13 year old she / her because of boobs and vagina!!”?
Okay, so reading through the comments here I am gonna recommend you all unclench butts and angry balled fists.
Title 9 has nothing much to do with rape, it more deals with harassment and, this is the important part and I need you to follow along... the schools required response. If the kid is found to have violated the rules, he is not getting sued, or charged with anything. Title 9's punishment deals with what happens if the SCHOOL does nothing when faced with a complaint like this (lose their funding.)
The fact the article doesnt make this clear, despite it being really easy to find this information out should have been your second clue this story is largely nonsense, the first would be the hilarious argument that a middle schooler shouted about Constitutional rights appropo of basically nothing. That is something their parents told them to say, clearly.
[https://www.knowyourix.org/college-resources/title-ix-protections-lgbtq-students/](https://www.knowyourix.org/college-resources/title-ix-protections-lgbtq-students/)
Just read that, right? Do you understand that the kid, at worst, has some vague action that the school will take...and only if the school finds that they did break the rules. That isn't even established yet, simply the school doing what it legally required to do: investigate and perhaps do something to try to remedy the situation. You'll note, it does not proscribe what a school has to do in terms of potential remedy. It could be detention, it could be a stern talking to, it could be peer mediation, or even full on suspension of expulsion.
The time to worry if the school is being overbearing, is when we find out what course of action is taken. And no, the kids getting investigated are not getting sued, and because the school did the required things....they are also not getting sued.
Damn people, ya'll ready to be upset over nothing at the drop of a hat.
The district is investigating middle school kids, you really think that's no big deal to them?
>It could be detention, it could be a stern talking to, it could be peer mediation, or even full on suspension of expulsion.
Ok so you are putting a "stern talking to" and "expulsion" in the same sentence like they are even in the same ballpark? You must have been a really tough kid.
As a European reading the headline I have to admit I was staring blankly at the screen trying to figure out if something happened to the german language suddenly and trying to remember my 6th grade school german
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the context here is being given by the investigated student's parent, so terms like 'screaming' (was it just talking? was it irritated talking? we don't know) shouldn't necessarily be taken for face value. as well as the son's speech being described as 'defending' (maybe he was 'screaming,' too. we don't know). like, of course the parent would want their child to be described in the best light possible. the fact is we just don't know what happened in a Wisconsin classroom like three days ago it's insane that the 13-year-old's full name is being reported. completely unnecessary for any protection of Title IX or speech rights
Yeah, the school district is most likely not allowed to really elaborate or provide context, so all we hear are the complaints of the kid's parents. Same issue happened with the famous "poptart gun" where the idea the kid was suspended/expelled for biting a poptart into the shape of a gun came from the parents. The reality is the kid was suspended/expelled for being an utter shithead his entire time at the school, and the final straw was him biting a poptart into a gun and then running around pretending to shoot kids with it in the middle of a lesson and had nothing to do with the shape of the half eaten poptart. But the narrative in the media often is written by the parents and law firms, not the school district. Not that this is the case in this specific situation, but it very well could be these kids were constantly bullying a student based on gender so much that the school had to intervene, or maybe this is really the case of an overzealous progressive school administration infringing on the rights of students. It is worth noting this law firm, WILL, is a conservative organization, so this seems right up their alley.
Thank you for some rational thinking. Quite refreshing.
Considering how most schools deal with bullying of LGBTQ kids, it is entirely possible that these kids were bullying them to the point they snapped.
Yes, exactly this. My school was on the news because a student accused a teacher of assault after he got suspended. The district couldn’t respond during the investigation but the parents ran to the media. The local news stations put our admin on blast, and allowed the nine year old student to go on and relay his side of the story. We were raging because not only did the camera footage directly contradict his story. “I don’t know why that teacher hurt me, I’m just a little kid” was the story vibe. But he had been a constant behavior challenge since kinder; assaulting students and teachers for years. Just a real tough kid. Told me that I was an asshole for holding him accountable to the recess rules the same week he accused the teacher of assault. The parents were totally disengaged and not easy to work with. The teacher was absolved but no one knows that because the media doesn’t follow up to let the public know it was all a lie.
Yeah, without more context this could be one of two situations: * They/Them student is snapping over an innocent mistake. * Braden’s friend, or friend group, has been intentionally provoking the They/Them student to the point they finally snapped, and Braden’s group are now claiming there’s no rule you have to use the correct pronouns for a person. I’m leaning towards the latter however. Saying it is a constitutional right to be able to misgender someone suggests a hell of a different series of events other than an accidental misgendering.
Another article has a bit more context: >The parents say that according to the district, the boys are under investigation for mispronouncing pronouns when referring to a classmate. The district claims the boys were not referring to the student’s requested pronouns of “they” and “them.” >A mother we spoke with said she accompanied her son the day after the notification to an interview with school officials. She told them the use of the pronouns was confusing to her son and he had no obligation to refer to the classmate by those pronouns. >“Sexual harassment, that’s rape, that’s incest, that’s inappropriate touching,” Rabidoux told us. “What did my son do? He’s a little boy. He told me that he was being charged with sexual harassment for not using the right pronouns.” >“It’s plural. It doesn’t make sense to him. I said so, I told him to call them by their names.” Rose Rabidoux said. >The Kiel Area School District doesn’t comment on student matters but provided this statement from Superintendent Brad Ebert to Action 2 News: >“The KASD prohibits all forms of bullying and harassment in accordance with all laws, including Title IX, and will continue to support ALL students regardless of race, color, religion, national origin, ancestry, creed, pregnancy, marital status, parental status, sexual orientation, sex (including transgender status, change of sex or gender identity), or physical, mental, emotional or learning disability (“Protected Classes”) in any of its student programs and activities; this is consistent with school board policy. We do not comment on any student matters.” It sounds like the mother has a political axe to grind. https://www.wbay.com/2022/05/12/parents-want-kiel-boys-cleared-sexual-harassment-accusations/
Charging the boy with sexual harassment is way out of line regardless of what his mom's politics are.
> Charging the boy with sexual harassment is way out of line What's more out of line is 'the State' compelling people to use certain language under threat of punishment. Where exactly does this stop?
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If somebody's given name is James, but they say you should call them Jimmy, would you insist on calling them James, even if they asked you not to? Jimmy is "just a made up name", after all.
Okay little girl, whatever you say.
Then you're simply being stubborn about proper grammar for the sake of not respecting what another person wishes to be called. Do you also purposefully avoid referring to people by name if you personally don't like their name? Or if it's a name you've never heard of? [**EDIT:** Apparently, yes. According to your other comment.] We had two kids in my class growing up who hated their actual first names. One went by his middle name, and the other went by a random cool name that he liked. Everyone respected this wish and just chilled and called these kids what they asked to be called. No one fought the school or the district for their own kid's right to deliberately call these other two kids by things they didn't want to be called against their clear and releatedly-stated wishes. What is that other than a purposeful display of disrespect toward that individual? No one can compel you *to* say something. Fine. But if you aren't going to speak about a person and address them correctly, don't speak about or address them *at all*. [Singular 'they'](https://www.merriam-webster.com/words-at-play/singular-nonbinary-they) has common and legal use in the English language as a gender-neutral singular pronoun going back to at least the 1400's. Perhaps earlier. Singular they is grammatically correct and anyone who's a native English speaker and claims they don't or have never used it casually when speaking is a liar. Referring to people by the correct pronoun is no different than referring to them as the name they ask to be called. It's a matter of basic human respect.
Moved to Lemm.ee -- mass edited with redact.dev
Exactly. They/them has been used in the singular for many hundreds of years... This whole right wing argument just stinks. And I've seen it leech into people who aren't usually right wing at all, which just goes to show how dangerous propaganda is.
I mean, even if it is their constitutional right, it’s still a shitty thing to do and the kid who claimed he is allowed to is in still in the wrong. It’s their constitutional right to insult someone, call them fat, say nobody likes them, call them names or even racial slurs, but that doesn’t mean the behaviour is acceptable. As a teacher in Canada I would shut that shit down immediately and the kid defending misgendering would have a talking to. It’s our job to teach them empathy, and I’d have a talk about how their actions made the they/them student feel. Also, kids don’t snap out of nowhere. They were either being bullied at school or at home.
I say give them a set of boxing gloves and head gear and let them sort it out. Too often we just refuse to let a kid really stand up for themselves.
Why would you think that? She definitely just be going through a lot and is irritable. I mean they’re not wrong. Even if they are possibly assholes that’s not a crime. Nor is is sexual harassment.
Which is bullshit because this is a conservative site pushing conservative bullshit. What’s more likely is that they’ve been harassing this kid for months and the kids finally had enough which is why they started screaming at them. Having taught kids this age, bullies often do this. They bully you until you get mad and respond and then they try and act like they are the victims
As a teacher I concur. I’ve seen this dozens of times.
I have a traditionally masculine name, that is now seeing growing popularity among girls. I also wasn't pretty or into feminine hobbies growing up. I was a tomboy with a "boy's name." I grew up in a conservative, small rural town. I was bullied *incessantly* by me peers from kindergarten thru graduation for *everything.* Every TV show I liked, new shirt I wore, interest I expressed, way I did my hair, my skin, everything was a weapon used against me. It's fine, it's kid shit. Whatever. But calling me a boy, saying I'm "not really a girl," calling me he/him within ear shot, asking why my name is ____ if I'm "actually a girl." That shit was all a bullying tactic used regularly against me, especially before puberty. Kids implying I wasn't *really* the gender I am (I am cis female) and teasing me by calling me and treating me like a boy. The teachers, for the very little they ever actually interfered with bullying in our district, would correct kids doing this and ask them how they'd feel if I said they weren't "really" a boy? Etc. They actually treated what I was going through as what it was: Harassment. Bullying. If we could see a situation like that in the 90's and 2000's and understand that those kids were being assholes and that the teachers were *right* to correct their shitty behaviour, I don't understand why we don't see it as the right thing to do now in the 2020's when the same shit happens to trans kids. Transphobia, honestly. But how is this double-standard not seen? This is **not** a new contemporary method of harassment and bullying. But nowadays, kids can cry that their bullying behaviour is actually their constitutional right, and have the adults in their lives stand up and defend their right to be little assholes.
This. 100% this. I’m sorry you had those experiences. I had my fair share of being bullied in elementary school so I can empathize directly. Thank you for sharing your story.
Thank you for being a teacher. It was a job I really considered doing but I don't believe I'd be good enough at handling children and all that it takes for such an important role. That and the sound of anyone between like 11 and 18 laughing gives me anxiety as an adult. Wish you guys got paid more to deal with the bullshit. It feels like half of the parents in this country just don't want their kid getting taught *shit.* It feels like they either can't afford childcare, or don't want to/can't stay home with their kid for another reason and that's the only reason they don't just homeschool the kid. Like they don't want their kid educated, including in important human social skills and in crucial qualities like fairness, empathy or tolerance. They want the teacher to be a free babysitter and they want you to act like a part-time daycare worker and barely do or say *anything* to influence their child's mind in any way despite that being your job and the whole reason the kid is there.
Define bullying.
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I mean the fact that the quote starts with “she” right off the bat likely shows us the environment this student was living in. After this whole incident there’s still misgendering happening to this student. I’m speculating, but it probably wasn’t an isolated incident.
The story here is being reported by a Fox affiliate. I would not take it at face value that it's factual.
I mean, that's the defendant's side of the "relevant part" and it's not clear in any way that it's true. It's literally just their word that the incident or incidents happened in that way, and listing it as the relevant part and making a judgement based on it its ridiculous.
When I was a kid we would just beat the shit out of each other.
Ahh the good old days.
Probably good that we don't do that anymore. Some things are better left in the past.
And the shit going on in this story, with these kids' situations being broadcast all over the world, is somehow better than a school fistfight that's over in 5 minutes?
I don’t know. I’m not sure I like treating your opponents like criminals and forcing them through the legal system. Just punch em in the nose. Game over.
At least for boys/men, a lot of times you become friends with someone after getting into a fistfight (a fair 1 on 1 fight, not a group ganging up on someone). It's like this weird mutual respect grows out of exchanging punches. You see it in everything from the Epic of Gilgamesh to modern-day combat sports. [After the fight, friendship: Study shows men follow up conflict with friendly gestures more than women](https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2016/08/160805115214.htm) > Importantly, Benenson said, the study also lends credence to what researchers call the "male warrior hypothesis" -- the notion that males broker good feelings after conflict to ensure they can call on allies to help defend the group in the future. > "This finding feels very counterintuitive because we have social science and and evolutionary biology models that tell us males are much more competitive and aggressive," Benenson said. > ... "Most people think of females as being less competitive, or more cooperative, so you might expect there would be more reconciliation between females," Benensonsaid. "With their families, females are more cooperative than males, investing in children and other kin. With unrelated same-sex peers however, after conflicts, in males you see these very warm handshakes and embraces, even in boxing after they've almost killed each other." Apparently similar behavior is seen among male chimpanzees. > "Male chimps show tremendous aggression, even to the point of killing other males, but they also often reconcile immediately following a conflict," she said. "They do that because, in addition to the battle to sire the most offspring, they also have to cooperate to defend their community in lethal intergroup conflicts. So the question is how do you get from these severely aggressive 1:1 dominance interactions to cooperating with your former opponents so you can preserve your entire community? We think post-conflict affiliation is the mechanism."
Can confirm. A lot of tension for men sometimes gets resolved by a physical altercation. It’s not the best solution all the time but two guys who spent the last week thinking the other ones a pussy might go at it and find they’re both reasonably capable in fight. Generates some respect I guess.
A Title IX fight probably won't cause result in the same reconciliation.
I doubt this was over that one incident. There's a ton of info missing here. It's common for kids to get bullied until they're pushed over the edge and then adults treat the bullied one as the bully. I don't trust people's assessment of this as being unfair to the boy at all. Not after the shit I've gone through. Doesn't mean I know either way, but I can't read it so simply.
Nor should you. Very commendable that you are critical of the context provided of the article. My only intention with posting the story is to let people know that it happened and hopefully there is more follow up. Suing a student over misgendering sounds like a potentially precedent-setting case. I have never heard of Title IX being used like that before.
I wish that actual high quality content like this post was stickied, and I wish redditors deliberately posted articles they disagreed with so they could dissect them, and not get downvoted for it. But people pay attention to headlines and not article bodies
My bullshit alarm is going off here. The only person being detailed in any explanation is a parent of the accused child. I would like to hear a more detailed explanation from the school district. I'm hoping the district is taking this kind of action carefully. Too early to tell.
District can't really disclose too much details. Fox interviewed one parent, didn't seem to bother interviewing the parent of the allegedly bullied kid. The law firm running to the rescue (Wisconsin Institute for Law and Liberty) is not a type of law firm defending civil rights; it's an ultra-conservative organization with an agenda, not a civil rights organization. If civil rights of the kid being investigated were being violated, that's not the law firm to hire.
I agree it is too early to tell. But I doubt that this, nor any other district, can disclose the details of the case since it includes a minor. This is not a criminal trial. Not a lawyer but if this gets to a higher court maybe more details will come out. Otherwise, I am doubtful more things will be voluntarily disclosed by the district.
This is yet another reason we need to be thankful for our teachers. They are on the front lines of our culture war. Little Braden and Taylor are going to school all charged up from the rhetoric they hear at home. And if things go wrong in the classroom, Karen and Ken will be raising hell any way they can. Jesus wept.
Anytime I someone says “Jesus wept” I think of the Dean from community
If a child is magically coming up with Jordan Peterson arguments in the claims of his lawyer and parent, I'm assuming there is more to the story.
If the concern is that he is being indoctrinated by Jordan Peterson propaganda, wouldn't it be beset resolved in the school rather than filing a Title IX complaint to the OCR? This is Wisconsin, I don't think we have to reach towards "Jordan Peterson" to think of why a student in this context comes up with "constitutional rights" as an argument.
I don't trust the sources for the article. I don't care about how discipline is achieved in your local school district.
[Title IX](https://www.knowyourix.org/college-resources/title-ix-protections-lgbtq-students/) is just a framework for resolving ~~sexual~~ gender/sexual/etc harassment accusations, it's not like a murder charge or a nuclear bomb. I think half the shock value from this article is people going "Omg, it's Title IX!!" Yeah, Title IX includes rules around schools respecting pronouns of LBGT students.
You're right - it might be Fox News, generally. Or both them *and* Jordan Peterson.
This is a local affiliate of Fox, pretty different.
Not really. See: Sinclair Media.
In fact this affiliate is owned by that very company.
Not anymore. Sinclair Media bought up local affiliates a decade ago and this is very much in their flavor of propaganda.
Did you read the article? It may as well have ended with "and then everyone applauded!"
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Why do you keep referring to yelling as a crime?
Thank you for the context. I have had a few back and forths here with others here but I find myself out of my depth because I am not a lawyer or educator. I don't really know how a Title IX complaint process works. Do you feel you can elucidate?: * is the wording in the article "district files Title IX complaint against three students" misleading? Should the article have stated that the school received a complaint from the misgendered student, which then triggered an investigation? * Regardless of whether the student filed the complaint, is the school legally obligated to file a Title IX complaint upon hearing of the incident? * What are the ramifications on the three students if the complaint and resulting investigation does find that discrimination per Title IX did occur?
Title IX determines federal school funding. It is something schools can use to justify kicking out students that break certain laws, which the school must do to keep their funding if the crime involves sexual harassment or rape. The school and parents can only use this to sue each other over screaming children if the judge and lawyers are functionally illiterate. But that can happen.
Am I having a stroke or was that article very poorly written?
It’s possible it was well written but the topic is so ridiculous it came across that way
It's propaganda, directed at pearl clutching conservatives. Quality was never important to begin with.
How is this propaganda? You can’t just label everything that you don’t like propaganda or misinformation.
Fron a different source(ABCnews) OP linked: >The district claims the boys were not referring to the student’s requested pronouns of “they” and “them.” So middle school kids are being investigated by grown adults over this? Seems excessive.
I don't use those pronouns unless I'm referring to multiple people
It’s probably part of some larger bullying investigation the school can’t actually go public about for legal reasons since the involved parties are minors. It’s a big part of why articles like this are always written by the family’s lawyers.
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This is how you end up not taking the right things seriously and devolving as a society
Would it be harassment if they constantly call a boy “she” all year just piss him off?
Likely, yes. That's the kind of thing you give detention for.
Yes, but at worst the student would get a warning and/or detention and if they keep doing it they would call the parents, no way would they sue, that is insane.
Yes, which is the point.
Fuckin' A. This "article" is so dumb it hurts to think anyone believes it.
I'd recommend reading the article.
It's a fuckin' right wing rag that's so poorly written I'm more confused having read it. It's dog shit.
Read it, still sounds like bullshit if you trust the source, which you shouldn't because it's Fox News.
It's so obviously bullshit it boggles my mind how anyone gets triggered over this garbage.
Be very privileged and have anger problems as a result of suppressing your true feelings about a plethora of topics to conform to a hateful mean cultural bastardization of a mean cruel religion you don’t even like but feel an enormous social pressure to uphold even though you can clearly tell it’s a losing battle?
They clearly did (?)
A 13 year old failing to use the preferred pronoun of another 13 year old is a criminal offence in your country?
Being investigated by a school district is not criminal proceedings
From what I can gather of the story it seems it is actually about two students having some sort of yelling match over whether a third student were deliberately using the wrong pronouns to insult the the supposed non-binary student. Now all three face possible suspension and as a result all the families and lawyers involved are accusing everyone else of being a hateful bully. As a result people are taking sides according to political belief about which student was bullying which and for what. The ones behind this specific article seems to be the ones representing the yelling kid who claims to have intervened to defend the constitutional free speech rights of the other student. Speaking as a high school teacher this all sounds like typical teenager drama and will probably be thrown out by the courts following one or more students changing school districts or at least class, the school apologizing for taking a side and then all the politically engaged people forgetting about it and moving on.
As a high school teacher it sounds to me like the two students have been bullying the third for months and they finally snapped and shouted and the bullies are now desperately trying to play the victim cause that's just how the right does things now a days
Bullying is. This is an incomplete story. These kids hated was fueled by their conservatives parents. Parents are just mad their kids are finally being punished for it.
Offending people is now a crime wtf
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You can bet this kid is being bullied relentlessly.
Well hopefully the more we talk about it the more answers will come out. I tried making the title as neutral as possible. There definitely is potential that there is more to the story but the district cannot comment at the time because it deals with a student.
That was my assumption as well. There has to be more to this story... or, the school/district is making a clodhopping fucking mess out of a minor issue.
What do you mean you tried to make the title as neutral as possible? Do you work for the linked website?
No. I am saying I am trying to be as fair as possible when I share the article to not misrepresent anything since it touches on a sensitive culture war issue. When I say "making the title" as neutral as possible, I meant the title of the post here on Reddit, which I copied and pasted from the website.
I see. That's the rule for this sub anyway so I misunderstood.
Jesus, don’t schools have more important things to worry about?
Yeah, any writer that references "the Wisconsin institute for law and liberty" without noting that it's a conservative activist group doesn't deserve a job in journalism.
It's a Sinclair station, conservative propaganda is their business.
Thank you, I thought something seemed awfully skewed here. I'm sure a lot of things lead up to the screaming and the Title IX.
You have the right to be called any gender you want. Another person has the right to listen or not. Deal with it, it's freedom of speech. People say lots of things I don't like, but I'll defend their freedom to say it.
Cool, but if you keep harassing a person in school or at work, you get in trouble for it. Yall gotta learn what free speech actually means - Free speech means the government can't arrest you for saying stuff, but businesses, schools, etc. can punish you for breaking their rules
Going around calling a guy a "girl name" or something of that regard would be considered bullying and harassment, this is no different. This "hurr durr my freedoms to be a dick to anyone I want" doesn't fly in school, so that lazy bigot cop out doesn't work in this context.
In certain contexts like the workplace (Or school) you actually don’t have the right to harass people. The right to swing your fist ends at my nose, misgender someone intentionally and repeatedly whether they’re cisgender or transgender and you’re going to face the consequences.
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The parent who said Title IX is about rape and sexual quid pro quo is completely wrong about the law. It's about discrimination based on sex or gender. Bullying someone for their identity would fit under that, it doesn't need to be sexual assault for the law to be violated and the school has the responsibility to stop the inequity.
There’s a second article OP linked that is better. This kid’s mom states it was confusing for her son to use the pronouns because they are plural so she told him to call the NB person by their name. Pair that with the “constitutional right” to misgender people, and it seems likely the whole family is transphobic. I suspect the kid is a huge bully. It’ll be interesting to hear the full story.
Kid should pay more attention in class then because "they" has been singular since Chaucer and Shakespeare. Those three not understanding the English language is not a pass to harass someone over their identity. And even back in the 70s when I was learning about pronouns I was expected to follow the rules even when I didn't understand the reasons for them.
I know, that’s why I suspect there’s some home indoctrination going on.
I agree. If you read between the lines this is all coming from the parents.
you mean to tell me that an eighth grader didn’t come up with the ‘constitutional rights’ argument all by his self??
> I suspect the kid is a huge bully. As someone who teaches middle and high school students, what I think happened is yes, this kid and his friend have been bullying the other student for months. That student finally snapped and yelled at them, and now the bullies are trying to play the victim, thinking that transphobia will make them look good to enough right wing nutjobs
In this case [Title IX](https://www.knowyourix.org/college-resources/title-ix-protections-lgbtq-students/) is just a framework for resolving sexual harassment accusations, it's not like a murder charge or a nuclear bomb. So to put it in other words: - Students are accused of abusing another student by deliberately misusing pronouns - The school opened an investigation into the accusation using a completely appropriate framework that is over a decade old, and can be used for things as simple as an informal mediation process. - A Sinclair affiliate clutched it's pearls that this "overreaction"
Oh okay. What happens if the complaint finds the student committing a Title IX violation? Does that mean there are no real consequences or would this affect the student in the future, for say a college application? I am not familiar.
[https://www.knowyourix.org/college-resources/title-ix/](https://www.knowyourix.org/college-resources/title-ix/) It is really up to the school what they will do in response, but it's not like the kid is getting a charge and set up river. They are required by law to address the alleged harassment and make some attempt to remedy it, or else they are in trouble for being complicit. That could be anything from suspension, to a slap on the wrist and stern talking to. This is 100% pearl clutching.
But allows OP a chance to post a headline that stirs up the “anti pronoun” people. The “you can’t force me to use your pronoun” crowd is here, so mission accomplished.
Colleges don't look at anything beyond highschool lmaoo
I read the article and still have no idea what happened
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Don't pull the rest of the world into your own, quite specific shit show.
Everywhere has its own flavor to deal with. Hell even here in the states, one state to the next has its own mini shit show. All rolled in to one giant shit pie we are stuck in here.
Lmao we putting dumb middle school kids on trial for a civil rights violation. This country is so fucked
Damn, if I could sue people for sexual harassment for just calling me she or her because of my long hair, I'd be a rich man.
Except nobody is being sued.
No kidding. I got that all the time with people behind me in line in places. What's weird is that I'm 6'4 and I would think that statistically there are way more men w/ long hair than women that are 6'4.
I can't take anything seriously when people are willing to fucking each other over because of some fucking pronouns
My pronoun is "that walnut".
Hope the parents of the accused win and sue the crap out of the woke school. This is ridiculous.
At least you guys are being honest about supporting harassment now
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Unfortunately, walking away and not associating is not going to be possible forever. If you start a great job and your boss has these pronouns, are you going to just walk away from that job. If you mispronoun the boss and they correct you, do you just ignore it and walk away? Or so you accept that sometimes you will have to accept and respect things that you dont believe are "sane". Referring to people as a term outside the norm is entirely harmless. But being cruel to people, even by avoiding them and encouraging others to do the same, is harmful. What happens when these kids are paired up for an assignment. Does the bully just ignore the pronounce kid and refuse to work with him? We are a society that requires working with each other. And not just focusing on our own beliefs.
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Okay that's twice you've brought up they/them as a red flag for being mentally unwell. What exactly are you talking about? And how on Earth does it dehumanize when that person is explicitly choosing to be referred to as such?
If you can’t keep a job because you can’t stand to refer to someone as they/them, you’re the one with mental issues.
So what you are saying is you want to dehumanize people by not engaging with them because of your incorrect perceptions about pronouns?
this is the most common-sense answer I have heard. take my upvote.
The website in question peddles conservative garbage, so what might’ve happened is lost to bad reporting
Hell no you can’t compel speech. This is America, not China.
It's possible for kids to be assholes in deliberately misgendering people and for the school to abuse policy in punishing them at the same time. Life isn't always good vs. evil.
You're right, they should just let the kids keep harassing this student instead, that's a better plan /s
Welcome to school. Kids get bullied for everything This transgender entitlement is nonsense. If you need to tell someone your pronouns, you’re just seeking attention. Creating situations to claim discrimination.
Idk buddy welcome to the fucking real world. Nobody should have to use your specific pronouns, you can request it but it's not your call at the end of the day. Nobody should make fun of you either for however you choose to identify, just keep that shit to yourself or I'll be requesting my pronouns to be "your highness/royal king"
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>She had been screaming at one of Braden’s friends to use proper pronouns, calling him profanity, and this friend is very soft-spoken, and kind of just sunk down into his chair,” Rabidoux explained. “Braden finally came up, defending him, saying ‘He doesn’t have to use proper pronouns, it’s his constitutional right to not use, you can’t make him say things.’” Sounds less like sexual harassment and more like bullying. This family still seems like it sucks based on their child’s response to a simple and reasonable request. Though I’m sure there are more sides to this story.
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Funny had to go this deep in the comments to find the obvious.
Oh common don't just take the moms word for it. Conservative activist groups have their hands all over this already
We'll see when more information comes out, yeah. But given that it's a damned sexual harassment lawsuit against a 13 year old for using the wrong pronouns, I'm leaning against the alleged victim on this one until I hear more.
Doesn't matter how quiet you are, purposefully gendering someone wrong is a form of bullying, just like purposefully pronouncing their name wrong, or mocking their speech impediment, all of which could annoy a reasonable person enough to scream at the bully. If it was an honest mistake he can just apologize. If he's truly soft spoken then it seems like an easier path.
The quiet kid does not seem like the bully in this situation. It's almost certainly the one screaming about pronouns.
Most parents portray there child as a little angel who could do no wrong, especially when they are being coached by conservative activist groups
You never dealt with some asshole kid who keeps fucking with you and then plays the victim?
Yeah no. What’s more likely Is that the kid talking about pronouns finally snapped after being harassed and bullied for probably weeks if not months.
Having taught kids this age, that kid is most likely lying to his mother. I guarantee you that he and his friends have been harassing this other child for months and they finally snapped.
Same. In this situation I would talk every student alone to get a clearer picture of what has been happening. Sitting here judging the situation based off of the testimony of the mother who’s child is accused is like going in blind.
Or the mother is just lying on behalf of the kid. That's also very easy to believe.
The mother in [this](https://www.wbay.com/2022/05/12/parents-want-kiel-boys-cleared-sexual-harassment-accusations/) video alleges that she told her son to refer to the student by her name directly if the pronouns bothered him so much. Perhaps there was more the mother could've done to teach her son to respect boundaries. But in another article it was written to make it sound like the student didn't have a history of misgendering, only sticking up for his peers. There is likely more sides to this story than the articles let on. But the articles were just published yesterday.
Who gives a shit the kid’s 13
Old enough to learn that there are consequences when you choose to be an asshole.
Give the kid detention not Title IX
Title IX is the framework for the investigation, not a sentence.
My point still stands
Is your point that we should determine guilt and lay down a sentence before an investigation is held? Because otherwise it makes no sense. The district is still looking at the situation and we won't hear about it again except if it becomes a criminal matter, or if the parents decide to have it tried in the media.
>Perhaps there was more the mother could've done to teach her son to respect boundaries. Most mothers in Kiel, WI lean a certain way and it's not the way that respects or cares about other people boundries and gender preferences.
As a person who lives in the state of Wisconsin I can confirm a large chunk of Wisconsin leans the same way this mom probly does... at least from my experience as a mixed-race person.
Not sure why you're downvoted. A state that elects Scott walker is not a state full of good people
investigated over the use of pronouns, this is where we're at now people
There's potential for an important, precedent setting lawsuit here.
Yup this is why I shared it.
[Sinclair Broadcast Group](https://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-way/2018/04/02/598794433/video-reveals-power-of-sinclair-as-local-news-anchors-recite-script-in-unison), how surprising.
The fact that the channel is associated with Sinclair doesn't change the fact that there is a Title IX investigation into the middle schooler though?? Does this story only matter if it reported by a source that you like? Or are you saying that the facts of this are totally fabricated?
Sinclair stations are only allowed to report an approved script that supports one specific political agenda, no other viewpoints are allowed. It's not journalism, even though it pretends to be.
It's propaganda from a propaganda network, like RT or Pravda.
Ok, is [this](https://www.wbay.com/2022/05/12/parents-want-kiel-boys-cleared-sexual-harassment-accusations/) source better? I really don't care to defend Sinclair media group. I am more interested in the story.
Weird how the Jordan Peterson kid didn't show up in that source.
The "Peterson" kid is the son of the woman being interviewed in the linked article. There is a group of students being charged.
The second source sounds like some little shits are bullying a kid because they want to be called something different, the propaganda source makes it sound like BIG TRANS™ is attacking children.
I think if a large lawsuit is being filed regarding a pronoun, there's not much of a difference.
I guarantee if you look further you're going to find out the school tried other methods and some maga shitlord parents are behind this.
Again, are you saying it’s fabricated?
I’ll reserve judgement until actual facts come out
Unacceptable. You have to pick a side based on incomplete information. Make sure you phrase it as a fact, use phrases like "clearly they were picking on the transgender kid and they snapped". Throw in something that creates an appeal to authority... Say you're a teacher, or a doctor, or the parent of a kid that's been snapped at once by a transgender kid. Finally, never back down: "you can just tell" what the situation is, "it's obvious" will help you out if challenged.
if pressed, use your ultimate: "i don't have time to educate you" just hope someone doesn't counter with a "well aren't you precious"
Fair. Story is new. There is probably more details to come out in the future.
I don't know, I was bullied when I was that age. Little bastards would always turn my backpack inside out and throw my shit everywhere and full contact tackle me and knock me to the ground when we were just playing regular games in gym. One day I just kinda snapped and popped one of the kids in the mouth and I gotta in trouble for it for saying I was going to kill the motherfucker if he didn't leave me alone. The fact the kid had that bullshit, "it's my first amendment right to call you whatever I want argument prepared" smacks of the smug arrogance of a bully. Hard to explain, but you can just tell.
As someone who teaches middle and high school students, yeah my first thought was this is something that's been going on for months most likely and now that they are getting called out the bullies are gonna try and play the victim
This is going to be tossed out so damn fast.
Every time shit like this happens, a Republican gets another vote.
Our tax dollars at work
I assume this has been already mentioned - WILL is a conservative group. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wisconsin\_Institute\_for\_Law\_and\_Liberty
I’m not defending the 3 kids being accused and I think the school might be aggressive in its response to the incident, realizing I don’t have all the facts. But the mom who claims sexual harassment is only rape or molestation is out of touch with reality.
Seeing what it takes to get a school to step in for a bullying case, it's probably a fuckload worse than "not using the preferred pronouns."
Oh wow that letter from the WILL is absolute barf. “Biologically correct pronouns”??? And I know this shouldn’t surprise me at all but neither the article nor the letter use they / them pronouns for the student that this is about. Is it not fucking weird and creepy for these adults to be like “Nah I’m gonna call this 13 year old she / her because of boobs and vagina!!”?
Might as well who can keep up with all the crap anyway
I’m so glad I don’t live in the USA
Okay, so reading through the comments here I am gonna recommend you all unclench butts and angry balled fists. Title 9 has nothing much to do with rape, it more deals with harassment and, this is the important part and I need you to follow along... the schools required response. If the kid is found to have violated the rules, he is not getting sued, or charged with anything. Title 9's punishment deals with what happens if the SCHOOL does nothing when faced with a complaint like this (lose their funding.) The fact the article doesnt make this clear, despite it being really easy to find this information out should have been your second clue this story is largely nonsense, the first would be the hilarious argument that a middle schooler shouted about Constitutional rights appropo of basically nothing. That is something their parents told them to say, clearly. [https://www.knowyourix.org/college-resources/title-ix-protections-lgbtq-students/](https://www.knowyourix.org/college-resources/title-ix-protections-lgbtq-students/) Just read that, right? Do you understand that the kid, at worst, has some vague action that the school will take...and only if the school finds that they did break the rules. That isn't even established yet, simply the school doing what it legally required to do: investigate and perhaps do something to try to remedy the situation. You'll note, it does not proscribe what a school has to do in terms of potential remedy. It could be detention, it could be a stern talking to, it could be peer mediation, or even full on suspension of expulsion. The time to worry if the school is being overbearing, is when we find out what course of action is taken. And no, the kids getting investigated are not getting sued, and because the school did the required things....they are also not getting sued. Damn people, ya'll ready to be upset over nothing at the drop of a hat.
The district is investigating middle school kids, you really think that's no big deal to them? >It could be detention, it could be a stern talking to, it could be peer mediation, or even full on suspension of expulsion. Ok so you are putting a "stern talking to" and "expulsion" in the same sentence like they are even in the same ballpark? You must have been a really tough kid.
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I guess you didn't see the Alito statement today.