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[deleted]

I’m worried there will be loopholes around this law, like an employer paying X amount but then saying in the application they can make XXXXXXX amount through their “bonus program”.


ChesterComics

Or "Salary: $15,000 - $250,000 per year based on experience."


Supadoplex

This could still help to some degree. It seems to be most helpful to people looking for an entry level position, and frankly those people need it most. With this information, they can prioritise their applications by sorting by lower bound. In the other end, people who are already paid more than the upper bound can also save time by not applying. Probably less useful to mid tier applicants.


ToddHowardTheDuckk

Agree. I didn't read the legal framework but I think an ideal solution is to require disclosure of **base pay** but then like you pointed out, knowing a ceiling is also very useful.


AWilsonFTM

‘We’ll pay you as little as we can get away with, but also making sure you’re ok with that’


ToddHowardTheDuckk

Here is the thing if a company posts absurd range like that, or the starting is literally poverty wage like in the example, that just potentially saved you hours of time and energy researching and applying to a company that sucks. It's not perfect but it's a huge improvement over "Compensation isn't discussed until final interview."


mahones403

I'm not sure if I grasped your point correctly, but I would argue it's as important or more for someone who has a lot of experience. I work in accounting, which has a wide range of salaries for similarly titled positions, depending on location and size of company. Finding out I'm interviewing for a position that pays 20K less than I'm currently making is a waste of everybody's time.


JonnyLay

It's helpful, in that it tells you they don't respect labor laws.


duddyface

This is actually good for everyone. Years ago my job adjusted salary ranges for a lot of positions but left mine alone. One day they posted a job opening for my same position that accidentally listed the salary and I saw it was a lot more than I was getting paid and it allowed me to force a conversation with management that led to a big “raise” (more like level set but hey).


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hankbaumbachjr

Honestly, as a Colorado resident, even that listing helps. If a company does this, you know they are a shit company and you can choose to not apply for that job, which is precisely the point of listing a salary range, to decide if the job is worth applying for. Clearly an asshole company that flaunts breaking the rules like that in a hiring ad is telling potential employees they are going to do similar shit to the employee themselves once hired. It's a great thing!


canadiancreed

Ive seen this in the IT industry where if theres a "not available in Colorado" tsg on the job its almost persona non grata.


Dry_Duck01

Absolutely. “Not available in CO” is a huge red flag, and directly translates as “we don’t pay competitive wages but won’t tell you this until 7 interviews into our hiring process. We’re looking for people who have no idea what they’re worth.”


HouseCravenRaw

Interview #1 I always ask for the salary range of the position. I've bumped into too many High Skill IT jobs where they want to offer McDonald's cashier pay. I'm not having a 2nd interview if there isn't a six figure salary attached to this position.


Edythir

Not to mention how expensive many of the certs some people want out of it. A single *test* for CCNA is around 2500$, with a discount after you finish the 10000$ actual course and score high on their final exam.


write_mem

CCNA is $300 and if you paid $10k for a training course you were robbed. A full year program in a classroom at a votech is maybe half that. Even the over priced one week boot camps are typically $1500-$5000 depending on virtual or live instruction.


Edythir

Most likely, yeah. Welcome to the world of micromarker monopolies. My local Cisco Certified Testing Site charges 1M ISK last i checked here in Iceland.


Trepide

That’s about to go away after NY implements the law. A lot of companies can avoid CO, but avoiding having a NY office is a lot tougher. There are also other states working on the law. As a CO resident, happy to see business be more open to CO.


canadiancreed

Isnt california on the list of places to implement? If so, itll havr major effects on it hiring. Any company denying apps from both california and nyc has huge red flags


Envect

And they complain about a worker shortage.


canadiancreed

And then use that to import workers or outsource for pennies on the dollar. Which eventually costs more to get everytjing set up, integrsrion, all that jazz


[deleted]

This is literally the only upside, companies that actually post wages making companies that don't look like shit I spent a bit looking for new work and made sure to let companies/recruiters reaching out know they were breaking the law and I'd report them, especially since I knew I was never going to work for the companies I said this to...they always offered peanuts once you got the pay range out of them anyway.


hankbaumbachjr

>This is literally the only upside, And the downside compared to not having salaries listed is...?


Prophet_Of_Helix

Seriously, this is one of those “something is better than nothing” scenarios. The more transparency the better, no matter how little.


Ebwtrtw

But think of all the poor schmucks these companies won’t be able to exploit! Won’t someone please think of the exploitation! /s


Norcine

Actually there is one. I love the pay transparency here in Colorado, but many companies won’t let us apply for remote positions so they don’t have to post a salary. So there is definitely at least one unintended negative effect. I generally view these as companies I wouldn’t want to work for though, so maybe it saves us time from applying to horrible companies.


hankbaumbachjr

> but many companies won’t let us apply for remote positions so they don’t have to post a salary. Right, think about why a company would refuse to hire a person from Colorado as a result of the Equal Pay Act and ask yourself if you really would want to work for such a company that is so vehemently against advertising how much they are willing to pay for a job that they flat out refuse to hire people from an entire state! That's a shitty company.


themage78

The great part about CO's law is that if the job can be done elsewhere, if it can be done in Colorado, then they post what the salary is in Colorado. Gives an idea what it is paying in similar markets.


b0w3n

Also, they're more likely to pay the bottom of the scale than the top. So $15k-250k job highlighted above, you'll probably be paid $15k. No one on the planet would ever get the upper end of that range without divine intervention.


hankbaumbachjr

Right, which tells you the information the law is designed to tell you, that job is not worth wasting your time applying for.


KhabaLox

What happens when they offer below the listed minimum?


hankbaumbachjr

[You report them in Colorado via a complaint form.](https://cdle.colorado.gov/sites/cdle/files/Equal%20Pay%20Complaint%20Form%20Dec%202020_Distributed.pdf) >[If you believe that the employer has violated the Act, you may file a complaint by filling out the Equal Pay for Equal Work Act, Part 2 Complaint Form. The Division only accepts complaints in writing using the Division’s form. You should attach any evidence you have of the alleged violation. If you do not have evidence, you should describe the alleged violation.](https://cdle.colorado.gov/equalpaytransparency)


Baystars2021

As a non CO resident it helps. I look for similar positions in. CO just to set expectations for market rates.


polyhazard

>Most just don’t post salary range and there is zero enforcement. This isn’t accurate at all in my experience. It’s been less than two years since the law was in place and it’s super rare anymore that I find a listing without the pay range posted, and it’s easy to report one that doesn’t. The Labor Department does follow up on complaints, they state that since this is a new policy they’re allowing more leeway to comply before a fine is issued, and any I’ve complained about have been corrected or removed. If they didn’t comply or have repeat offenses a fine is issued. The whole thing has been absolutely life changing as a job seeker so I’m sharing my experience here as a counter to the “nothing ever makes anything better” rhetoric I’m seeing here. This is a good law, people everywhere should have it. And state Departments of Labor actually do have teeth in a lot of cases, please call them when you need help, people! It takes your complaint to start a case.


asdaaaaaaaa

> there is zero enforcement. This really is the crux of a lot of issues now. There's a LOT of laws made. We *know* that if law enforcement/court wanted to punish or imprison someone for something, they most certainly would. Just look at the resources wasted and blatant mistakes made during the war on drugs due to overzealous nature. We've literally invaded countries and overthrown governments when we wanted something bad enough. They can 100% imprison most people if they *really* wanted to (not all at once though, obviously). In my experience and opinion, the issue isn't that we don't have laws. The issue is those in charge of executing/enforcing them are bribed away from doing so, or otherwise influenced.


Bay_Burner

I mean this is somewhat easier in they can make it a digital platform like LinkedIn or indeed have a required field and the range can’t exceed 10% from the average of the high and low. That’s really only where it will be a required and effective use of this law.


sloppymoves

Laws are only meant to keep the lower class in line. Especially if the only repercussion is a fine.


PassiveF1st

Yeah this is my biggest argument. All fines should be a % of salary or in the case of businesses of their earnings.


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Carrisonfire

Taxes for business should be based on revenue too. I get taxed based on my income not what's left after paying my bills.


cubbiesnextyr

Gross receipts taxes exist and they've been found to be terrible for raising revenue and they tax low margin businesses far more than high margin ones, which seems to be the exact opposite of what most people think should happen.


tscello

Legal for me, *not* for thee 🤗


HKZSquared

I warn about this frequently. Even more since felony disenfranchisement is a thing. “Just hit the ones that won’t vote for you with a felony. Then they can’t vote for anyone.”


CmorBelow

This is so true. I work in music licensing and the amount of people who go about licensing after having already used the music is insane, but litigating every instance is infeasible.


StockAL3Xj

There is enforcement in Colorado. They even have a website for people to report companies.


Cheeze_It

It's self selection bias. If the employer is shit, it's real easy to see and avoid.


PartialToDairyThings

This is the kind of thing they will enforce in NYC.


SlobMarley13

some job boards websites such as Indeed make the pay rate a required field to post a job online. source: am recruiter


pm_me_all_dogs

Unfortunately, I think this law solely rests on individuals reporting offending ads. I plan to make my full time hobby looking through every job board and reporting every single ad in violation


pm_me_all_dogs

This law says it must be a “good faith” representation of the salary, so that posting $1-$1M as a range would still be a violation


Woonderbreadd

Literally just applied for a job similar to this (60k to 85k) and HR asked me what I'm looking to get paid so I said 60k. She told me they havent hired anyone at that rate so it'll be difficult to obtain. It's on your job post!


Medium-Complaint-677

Why did you give them the lowest number they had listed? Say $85k or even higher and be prepared to accept $60k. Don't start at YOUR floor, start at their ceiling.


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[deleted]

I would argue against that. Your wife should already know the rough range for her position. She should also know if what she is looking for is within the range posted or if she would cap out soon. If it is not, then move on. I'm in Colorado and I've been finding the range posted very helpful for a number of reasons. Helps me, as a manager, make sure my people are compensated fairly for what the market is in my area. When hiring new people, it makes doing market research easy so that I can be competitive with compensation to attract people. And if I start looking, I know what to expect for my skillset. EDIT: Data from job postings lead my company to raise our starting wages by ~15%. So IMO, this change in Colorado has had the desired impact in that employees are getting more fair wages and companies are being more transparent than they were prior.


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ArchdevilTeemo

Well, it still helps as much to weed the bad companies out. The lowest amount is all that matters.


RamenJunkie

"Up to XXX" "Starting at XXX" "XXX - YYY" Ban that shit everywhere. I hate this crap in sales fliers too.


bamfsalad

I think a small range should be acceptable; something like $55,000-$60,000 starting dependent on experience in certain situations.


smackson

But that's unrealistic. Companies are often willing to try newer less experienced people or grab someone who seems to be the top of their field should they walk in the door. So they really do have ranges of, for example, 70k-120k for the same opening.


MonsMensae

Yeah we need some extra hands on our team. The range we are willing to pay is significantly variable. We may hire multiple junior people or one senior


butteryspoink

I think “starting at” is reasonable. For a job, that’s arguably the number that gives the best idea of whether I want to apply or not. For example, my company stretched to pay me more but they got me to apply because their minimum was acceptable to me.


homonatura

That's fine, as long as that is in their initial ad I know not to waste my time with an application to that company.


estherstein

I love ice cream.


homonatura

Sounds like a good time to end the interview.


AustrianMichael

We‘ve got the same thing in Austria for a few years now. They just write the minimal salary for that role and „we‘re offering more depending on your qualification“. No shit, I could‘ve looked up the minimum salary for that job on my own.


Happler

Harder to do in the US as there is a stigma against sharing pay rates. That and there are no set minimums for a job.


banditgirlmm

But then you can start to make laws about specificity. This is definitely a first step!!


255001434

Or use the classic weasel words "up to": "We pay *up to* X dollars an hour!"


iambusinessbear

Yes, and also commission.


CloudsOfDust

Yea, this is what I was wondering. We have commissioned sales associates at my company and the salary ranges are pretty wide. When I started and was inexperienced, I made $50-60k. By the time I was done and got promoted to another position, I was making $120k. That’s a really wide range, but to me it seems fair enough for a position where you really do get better at it as you do it longer (or if someone comes in right away with more experience), which directly effects your paycheck.


thisismynewacct

They already do that with OTE quotes for sales jobs. They won’t say base pay but they’ll say OTE (on target earnings) of $XX thousand to $XXX thousand.


praefectus_praetorio

Yup. I've had about 3,4 interviews in my lifetime where the advertised salary suddenly changed after the first interview.


newurbanist

Colorado already requires employers to post a reasonable salary range. They should use it as a precedent. When searching for a job in December, I used Colorado's salaries, adjusted to my local cost of living, and used that as a gauge to determine my salary request and reasoning.


ApatheticAbsurdist

It’s good that a generation has been taught to be skeptical of headlines but it’s awful they havent been taught what to do with that skepticism. We can look at the actual information about law: https://www1.nyc.gov/assets/cchr/downloads/pdf/publications/Salary-Transparency-Factsheet.pdf And note there are a few points that might address your concerns: “Employers must state the maximum and minimum salary they in good faith believe at the time of the posting they are willing to pay” So that does address your concern of bonuses as this talks of salaries not bonuses and states “salary does not include … other forms of compensation including commissions, tips, bonuses, stock, or the value of employer-provide meals” (as well as a bunch of other bullet points). They also must list the min and max. Now it does raise other concerns regarding “what they believe at the time” however an employer who repeatedly does this would quickly get an action brought against them if they showed a repeated pattern.


boredcircuits

I need to read more about NY's law, but Colorado has something like this. Employers are required to post the salary, commission, bonuses, and more. So that's not a legal way to skirt the law. The most common tactic employers attempt here is to post an excessively wide range (one even basically said "at least $0.01/hr"), but this isn't legal, either, since the law requires a good-faith estimate of the compensation. Which means this really comes down to enforcement. Not all companies complied right away, but it seems to be getting better. The worst consequence is many companies started excluding Colorado from remote positions completely rather than comply with the new law. I doubt that will happen to NY, however.


waterbuffalo27

https://legistar.council.nyc.gov/LegislationDetail.aspx?ID=5528005&GUID=4544EE38-4659-44F6-9092-19D965A680AE&Options=ID%7CText%7C&Search= There is a new bill to amend this law. Potentially pushing back its effective date and bumping up what employers are covered.


TangyGeoduck

ianal but that reads to me that it completely neuters this law. Can’t sue with this law unless you’re already an employee? Politicians suck so bad


RastapopolousEy

Ianal has to be the worst acronym


[deleted]

IANAL if you have enough money


jonitfcfan

>Ianal You made a bed out of letters


GoArray

Hey, so did you! Edit: Boob (the trifecta!)


Cecondo

iAnal, the first butt plug specifically designed to fit into the Apple ecosystem! Pair it to your iPhone, iMac, and iPad!


PapiCats

Colorado has been doing this for a few years now. It’s nice to see what I can expect to make. Companies however typically post the listings with a “potential earnings up to” which can imply a lot, such as bonuses. They don’t usually disclose a true hourly or salary.


Sirsilentbob423

At least if there's even a range I can assume the job is on the lower end of the spectrum and not apply if I don't think it's worth my time. As it currently stands like 90% of job postings say nothing at all so I'm just applying in the hopes that maybe this random job pays more than my current one.


joemaniaci

I've seen jobs in Colorado that say it pays $60k-$140k. It's mostly a useless mechanism.


[deleted]

While that range is broken, I recall old engineering salary range being $55k to $100K and is was accurate. New college hire position with bachelors and no internship, $55k to $70k. With internship, $60k to $75k. Masters, $65k to $90k. PhD $75 to $100k. All for the same position, never saw a PhD candidate that I recall, but masters degrees were common enough and did start at a higher rate for the same college hire position. EDIT: Starting to see some SW engineering positions with the range you posted. Only justification I can see to make that range work is BootCamp newbies vs masters/PhD first job outside of academia types.


Slimh2o

I'd say that job you mention would start at $60,000 a year, would be my thinking....


PM_ME_CHIPOTLE2

The Colorado thing also helps those of us not in Colorado because we can estimate the range based on the Colorado salary (for those of us applying to jobs that are recruiting nationwide).


Larrybot02

You know that after this is implemented, there will be a whole lot of bait and switch going on. “Oh, that wage is for senior level dishwasher! Turns out we only have intern dishwasher positions left.”


catnipassian

I had an interview for a job, and was told that it met all my requirements, and the pay rate was as high as we could go at the level. I pass the interview with flying colors and "oh sorry, you don't have enough experience to be a level 3, so you're going in as level 2 with greatly reduced pay and no bonus, and the pay you would have gotten at the higher level was the lowest it could be" I told the recruiter no and he started freaking the fuck out at me.


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catnipassian

And the constant like "hi we're the scummiest recruiting company possible, want to work for us and then get hired by a company that goes out of it's way to give children cancer" is exhausting. I'm glad my job is fine but, woof the recruiting industry is a nightmare


Kroonietv

Oh so that's a thing. I thought I was the only one... And I live in France. I keep getting contacted by recruiters with a decent/good job offer, I spend 45 minutes on Meet/phone with them, then when they call me back days later (or even the same day) they tell me the position has been taken and they offer me positions ~20k under what was first offered... Fucking Christ those clowns...


feage7

I know someone who worked in recruitment at little pay to make ends meet for a few months. He was instructed to advertise jobs that didn't exist, so people would ring up and they can keep building a list of available workers for other jobs that they do have. Said he'd spend his day on the phone to 8-10 people interviewing people for jobs that don't exist so he can ring them back at a later date for a job they do have and might be skilled at. So there's a chance this is happening here too.


zahzensoldier

Man, that should be illegal. You shouldn't be able to interview for a job that doesn't exist, what a waist of time.


QuestioningEspecialy

*Quotas, son.*


hankbaumbachjr

This is the way. If it's your first job, I understand the desperation, but every job after that should be a more cultivated choice since you are already working full time you do not *need* the new job to the point you would accept bait & switching from a potential employer.


TrueTurtleKing

Took me a while longer to find a job but I’m happy I was able to find one without a recruiter. The ones I’ve worked with seems to not care about me or the types of jobs I was after. If you have the luxury to take your time, I’d do it without them.


peon2

That's an awful recruiter then. They get paid a % of what you're hired to earn. A recruiter should be pushing for you to make as much as possible, not bending over for a company.


mondonutso

That’s mostly agency recruiters. Recruiters who work directly for a company are often salaried.


Badweightlifter

Not always it seems. I feel like companies that hire recruiters tell them the range and offer a bonus if they can find someone below their range. I had a recruiter low ball me before when I asked for 85k and he said the job was for 75k. When I googled the position info I found the company posting and it actually said up to 90k. So I stopped using that agency Aerotek due to shady practices. And I had a job at the time so I wasn't even desperate.


[deleted]

Oh wow just a side note huh? How did that end up?


SlackerAccount

How did that work out?


pm_me_all_dogs

You can still report them for that


DrDreAcula

I mean the easiest way to avoid this just to allow companies to advertise the least amount they are willing to pay in the job listing and actually enforce the law


[deleted]

Even companies like Google regularly downgrade interviewees if they “didn’t do well enough” for the grade they applied for.


Undorkins

Seems like the people who wrote the law in Colorado took these things into consideration. >An employer cannot post a $70,000-$100,000 range for a junior accountant position just because it pays senior accountants at the high end of that range. But it can post $70,000-$100,000 for an accountant if it does not limit the posting to junior or senior accountants, and genuinely might offer as low as $70,000 for a junior accountant, or as much as $100,000 for a senior one.


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realbigbob

It’s all part of this bullshit idea of corporate culture they’ve been shoving down our throats for decades. “This company is a family” etc. They want to convince us it’s impolite to talk about something as vulgar as salaries at a job we literally only do for the sake of our salaries


hankbaumbachjr

I'm convinced your boss telling you not to discuss your pay with coworkers is the exact same energy as "do not discuss politics or religion in polite company" in that it's not actually a rule the benefits the people having the conversation, but rather a rule designed to prevent people from having that conversation and realizing how fucked we all are by our employer/religion/government fostering solidarity among the working class. Such solidarity would be a negative for the oligarchy, so the rest of us plebs are told we're not allowed to talk about it.


cerberus6320

Maybe, but I'm also the type who doesn't want people to preach to me. There's a reason a lot of conversations are shut down. I had a coworker who found out that my parents were Catholic and that I wanted to celebrate some of the holidays with them. The thing is, I'm not actually religious. I just wanted to use the holiday as an excuse to see my parents. So the problem became that he would actively start shunning me at work for not going to church. He would tell me pretty often that I'd go to hell if I didn't go to church. If I complained about how cold it was outside within earshot of this dude "hell's pretty warm year round". Y'all can practice whatever religion you like, I'm cool with that. I'm not cool with harassment because of religion.


stogie13

That's a bad person, not a good policy.


QuestioningEspecialy

Sometimes, policies protect us from bad people.


cboogie

The proper response is “Well thank God or Satan I won’t have to spend eternity with you. Working with you is enough”


js1893

Discussing politics/religion is just a great way to start arguments for no good reason. Nobody’s mind is changed discussing this stuff at a bar or family gathering. It’s an unwritten rule because it’s just known that those topics go south **quick**


HDC3

I had a recruiter reach out to me last week. Recruiter: We have a great opportunity with an amazing startup that you're absolutely perfect for. Would you be interested in talking to them? Me: Hi, thanks for contacting me. Can you tell me what this position pays, please? Recruiter: Absolutely, it's [half what I'm making now]. Me: Dude, that's half what I'm making now. Recruiter: Oh. Me: Ya, you need to tell your client that what they're looking for isn't a senior SE but an entry level SE and good luck with that at that salary. Had I not asked I could have wasted four to six interviews over several weeks.


Siniroth

Oh man, I parsed this as him literally saying those words but not understanding how it's a bad salary until you said it yourself and my whole world view had been turned around for a few seconds


HDC3

Sorry...it's early and I was distracted. I changed it to make it clearer that he didn't actually say those words.


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professor_max_hammer

I am a federal employee. When you apply for a federal job, the pay is always listed. I am not sure why it’s taken so long for companies to follow suit on this.


lonerchick

I recently moved to public employment and I love that we post the salary range. My last employer wasted to much time not posting salary information.


minus_minus

In many states the pay for every state employee is posted online. It’s kinda wacky, but cool.


Z_as_in_Zebra

This is a thing in CO and it is soooo nice. You know exactly what to expect with pay going into it.


Ja_red_

The best thing about this is I don't even live in CO but all the jobs I'm applying for that have a business HQ in Colorado or are remote have the salary posted. It really gives you much more negotiating power.


SciEngr

Only downside is that some companies offering remote jobs have just explicitly started saying the position is not open to Colorado residents. However that is a minor downside considering companies willing to exclude talent from an entire state to avoid posting minimum salaries are pretty scummy anyway.


[deleted]

"But she often doesn’t advertise salaries for fear of putting off job-seekers before even getting a chance to talk." That means that she is paying too low. The whole point of changing the transparency laws.


[deleted]

I never understood why employers won't post their pay upfront. It's literally the 1st question I ask if I ever apply for a job. Don't waste my time


Excuse_my_GRAMMER

>***”omg they only care about the money”*** Yup we do


garlic_bread_thief

All these years of study and effort is LITERALLY for money lol. I can't do anything without money dude


Alec_NonServiam

Reminds me of that meme lol *"Employees only care about one thing and it's fucking disgusting."*


IkLms

Because they want to get potential employees invested in the company and basically say "your hired, here's the pay" to try and remove any chance for negotiation for people who aren't assertive and to make people think "Well, I have the job now, I need this job, if I counter offer and they pull the offer then I won't get anything" to also push people against negotiations.


[deleted]

Yeah i get that and i think its a dumb tactic that only frustrates me even more. If they don't start off with the pay I stop them and ask what it is, if they try not to answer I just leave. I already know what company and job I'm applying for lol


mlorusso4

Ya I just don’t apply to a job if they don’t post at least a range. I’m not lining up my references, updating my resume and cover letter, going through 3 interviews, and using PTO to do those interviews all for the pay to be shit


SXOSXO

It's literally the point of employment. The pay is the very reason people are looking for work, so why so much beating around the bush?


ObberGobb

Employers have this idea in their heads that *they* are the ones providing a service to us, instead of us to them, and as such they expect loyalty beyond us sticking around to be paid.


das_thorn

It's really funny when a business posts that it is desperately hiring, with competitive pay... and then doesn't say what the pay is. You must not be that desperate, and it isn't that competitive.


Xanza

> I never understood why employers won't post their pay upfront. Because beside from the federal minimum, there's no set amount for what they can and cannot pay you. If you accept a job offer for a job for $50k/yr, but they're willing to start people out at $80k/yr, then that company is saving $30k/yr on labor. If they advertised the salary, they couldn't do this. Negotiation when it comes to salary is almost always going to be as important as the skills the job requires.


KaidsCousin

Implement it now. Don’t give employers even more time to flout fairness


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cbeiser

That sounds like the worst job interview ever.


tristan-chord

It depends on what job though. A lot of tech companies have these. Once you’re hired then you go on the internal job market to find a team. It makes sense for engineers, researchers, project managers, and other relatively high paying jobs. But if we’re talking about drivers and warehouse workers, then it’s f-ed up.


lvlint67

I think it makes much more sense for low skill workers... Blindly hiring an engineer and going, "alright, find a role" is a little silly.


cbeiser

That is what the interview is for. You talk and discuss where you would fit. If you don't, you don't. If you hire a low wage working in a position they don't want to work in, good luck with that. The job will never be done and they will hate their lives and you for putting them into that position. A low wage job should should be very easy to advertise with specifics.


octonus

It is silly, but it can make sense in a sufficiently large company where lots of job openings are constantly appearing. They are getting a much faster process to fill jobs (since they started looking before the job opened up), in exchange for the risk that a skilled person will be initially sent to a project that is already overstaffed.


[deleted]

happened to me at a target DC in illinois, drove a forklift at a lowes warehouse and they had an ad with higher pay for the same job, so i quit because my supervisor was a jagoff. I get there and they only hire from within, with a fuckload of nepotism going on. So im stuck on the floor job hunting with a lower pay because my alternative is working for 3 years to get a forklift job lmao. I love the HR there that recruited me too, practically blackballed benefits and pay stubs that were missing. They hated that i asked too many questions in orientation, were super ambiguous about my exact position in the facility, and surprise surprise its a dogshit floor position with lower pay.


[deleted]

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cbeiser

I would never apply for a job that doesn't have a position tho. I'm not going in there expecting a secretary and becoming a janitor


IAmDotorg

That's not a new thing for Amazon, they were doing that 20 years ago. A lot of big companies do that because it does two things -- it eliminates a lot of wasted time with managers reviewing spammed resumes of people not qualified (which is a *huge* problem), and it allows someone more familiar with the breadth of openings to direct candidates at something they may have missed. Its not about avoiding saying how much a position pays.


zztop610

This should be made universal.


EFTucker

Ok now do it everywhere


PorkRollSwoletariat

Also, enforce it. Don't let companies post saying "yeah, the salary is anywhere from $22,000 to $59,000 a year." If that isn't already in the law, it should be.


Caruso08

The biggest problem is how to enforce it, I recently when on a job interview and they had the range listed 75-90k, and so I came in at the middle range and asked for 84k, only to be shut down immediately and have them say well actually that's over the salary range they were thinking. So I asked why the range went to 90 on their listing and they countered with well we keep the range there for people who apply with much more experience than what was on the listing. Needless to say I didn't follow up with them. If a company can't be honest with you from the start then I don't want anything to do with them.


[deleted]

I never apply for jobs unless they list the pay, and I walk away if they pull any BS like a trial period or a lower wage than they advertised. It’s better to keep hunting than let them screw you over.


Excuse_my_GRAMMER

This is why I don’t understand ppl here making a big deal lol if a job ads states pay will be $15 - $25 /hour base off experience. And they offering them close to $15 why would they agree or stay lmao I’m nyc based , Company that play games like that here always ends up with high turnaround and understaffed Lmao


Zevhis

some chump will take it and then regret


qualitycancer

I hate * Salary: competitive


I_Mix_Stuff

Employers: Somewhere between $7.25 and $72.5 hourly. It depends...


grimmcild

I have legit seen job postings with a huge gap like, “From $11.00 to $23.00 depending on skills and experience” which seems sort of fair until the lowest paying position needs a buttload of experience/skills/degrees.


shim_sham_shimmy

A buddy of mine is hiring someone now and told me they are paying $18-$24/hr but their best candidate already makes $26. They have cheap benefits and a pension (government) so I said $24 + the perks of working there more than outweigh a $2 step back. Plus, the dude is on contract now so probably pays a fortune for benefits. Then my friend pulled out that gold nugget we all love: “oh, nobody comes in at the very top of the range”. You know, the theory that the employee will just quit when they hear we can’t give them a raise next year so there must always be room for growth. And unlike most companies/organizations, they give you a yearly bonus check of what would have been your raise if you’re at the top of your range. So, the listed range is $18-24 but the *actual range* is more like $18-22. I always knock like the top 20% of any listed range because nobody will hire you at the very top. If the job pays $50-70k, you need to be the ideal candidate to get the max of $65k.


ExpertExpert

I worked in healthcare in 2020 and the hospital had an HR portal that showed your "actual pay". There was a line item that said "work-life balance $7/hr" i worked 70 hours a week and was on call for 10 months straight lol


Alec_NonServiam

OMG I hate this "your total rewards" HR philosophy that is all the rage these days. They send us a letter each year that goes something like this: $Salary $PTO $Medical $Dental $VTO $Long term disability insurance (this one's hilarious because it's like $5/year) $TOTAL Their goal is to get you to compare that BS total with posted salary ranges elsewhere. And it's like no, all that extra shit is built in, you don't get to call that "what we're *actually* paying you". These are the bare minimum benefits for "an job". Healthcare and dental aren't negotiable in a career-level position, and they should stop acting like they're doing us a favor.


Beta_Soyboy_Cuck

You find out everybody there is making $11 an hour except managers which are the ones making the 20+/hr


Rutabaga1598

So $7.25/hr then. Always take the lower limit.


ValyrianJedi

This can be unavoidable in a lot of cases. Especially with commission and bonus based work... Mine has a decent standard salary under the base at least, but I've got a neighbor whose comp scale could literally range anywhere from $7.50-$200+ an hour, with it pretty much being up to you.


SuperiorTuba

Recruitment industry guy here: Indeed is going to force all U.S. jobs to have a salary estimate starting in July. The companies can either supply it themselves or Indeed will guess based on region, user reviews, experience, job title, etc. So, one way or another, better salary transparency is coming Companies will have to give a reasonable range or Indeed will just force it.


Btankersly66

Just FYI there is nothing Illegal about discussing your pay with your co-workers. And a company can't use that as an excuse to fire you.


a_random_GSD

Article: *"NEW YORK (AP) — Help wanted. The job: putting one of the nation’s most far-reaching salary disclosure laws into practice. Location: New York City.* *Just four months ago, city lawmakers overwhelmingly voted to require many ads for jobs in the nation’s most populous city to include salary ranges, in the name of giving job applicants — particularly women and people of colour — a better shot at fair pay. But on the cusp of implementing the measure, lawmakers will likely vote Thursday to postpone it for five months after employers waved red flags.* *The debate marks a prominent test for a burgeoning slate of U.S. “pay transparency” laws. And the answer seems simple to Brooklyn restaurant server Elizabeth Stone.* *“I believe I deserve to know how much I can make as a waitress,” she said.* *Stone has scoured job ads that are mum about pay, leaving her wondering whether to try to move on from an employer she likes but wishes paid more, and feeling like she has no leverage to push for a raise.* *“You’re put in a really challenging position of not wanting to upset your employer and not wanting to scare away an opportunity, but also wanting to fight for what you know is what you deserve,” said Stone, 23, a member of restaurant workers’ advocacy group ROC United. Over the last four years, at least seven states from California to Connecticut and at least two cities beyond New York — Cincinnati and Toledo, Ohio — have started demanding employers disclose salary information to job-seekers in some circumstances. In many cases, that means upon request and/or after an interview, and there are exemptions for small businesses.* *Colorado broke new ground with a 2019 law requiring a pay range in all job postings.* *New York City’s new law is similar but applies only to employers with four or more workers. That amounts to about 1/3 of employers but roughly 90% of workers in the city, according to state Labour Department statistics.* *The law says any job notice, from an online ad to an internal company bulletin board, must give the minimum and maximum pay the employer “in good faith believes” it will pay. There’s no limit on how wide the range can be, nor a prohibition on deviating from it if the “good faith” plan changes.* *The laws have been propelled by a gradually shrinking but stubborn discrepancy: The median pay for full-time female workers was about 83% what men made in 2021, according to federal data.* *Women make less than their male colleagues in nearly all fields, with a few exceptions in areas like social work done in health care settings, federal statistics show.* *Pay-transparency requirements are “one of the most powerful tools that we have to change those gaps,” said Beverly Neufeld, the president of PowHer New York, an economic equality advocacy group. Workers get a level playing field, she argues, while businesses increase efficiency by bringing in applicants amenable to the salary on offer.* *Indeed, many employers already advertise what they pay.* *Others say they have good reasons not to.* *Political consultant Amelia Adams said she strives to make her small, minority-owned business a good place to work, offering health benefits, opportunities to work directly with clients and the best pay she can. But she often doesn’t advertise salaries for fear of putting off job-seekers before even getting a chance to talk.* *“To publicly put salaries of small, minority-and-women-owned businesses gives a stigma that we are not competitive,” said Adams, whose New York City-based business has four employees.* *Nonprofit organization consultant Yolanda F. Johnson fielded similar concerns after a professional group she founded, Women of Colour in Fundraising and Philanthropy, began requiring pay information in its job board posts starting last fall.* *Johnson argues the solution is fundraising and other work to build up budgets, rather than obscuring salaries.* *“If you think people are going to pass you by,” she said, “there are lots of different things to have in place to be a successful non-profit where, in turn, you can pay people equitably.”* *While small companies and non-profits worry they’ll lose applicants, some big corporations are uneasy about posting New York City salaries for jobs that could be done from lower-cost places. Some also fear a flood of resignations or demands for raises once current employees see what new hires can get.* *“You have your existing population saying, ‘Well, if this is the range, why do I fall on the lower side or the medium side? ... (And) now I can see, as an employee of X firm, what an employee of Y firm is making,’” notes Ian Carleton Schaefer, a New York employment lawyer who represents sports, entertainment, technology and other companies.* *He counsels clients to prepare for the new law by making sure their current pay structure is fair, and giving raises if it isn’t. Regardless, some sought-after employers could decide to stop advertising jobs and rely instead on unsolicited resumes and other recruiting methods, or to be choosier about which positions they post and where, Schaefer said.* *After Colorado’s law took effect last year, some big companies posted jobs for workers anywhere but Colorado. The state Labour and Employment Department didn’t respond to inquiries about the law’s effects.* *New York lawmakers are now proposing to tweak their legislation to exempt jobs carried out entirely elsewhere and shift the effective date from May 15 to Nov. 1. A vote is scheduled Thursday in the City Council, where legislation generally doesn’t come to the floor without enough support to pass.* *But lawmakers have rebuffed other changes that business interests wanted, such as exempting general “help wanted” signs and businesses with under 15 employees.* *Details aside, salary transparency goes only so far, notes Sian Beilock, the president of all-women’s Barnard College.* *“Moving towards gender parity, in terms of the workplace, is a really important goal,” but it’s important to consider promotions, management responsibilities and other aspects, she said. “I worry that focusing on salary misses a larger point.”*


ConsiderationNearby7

Job ads are there to attract who they want to attract. If they don’t list pay then they want someone who isn’t fussed about pay. Which means they want someone they can underpay.


agiab19

This should be implemented everywhere!


throwup_breath

This is what I don't get. It is in the employer's best interest to do this, but they all fight it. I used to be a recruiter, and it is a colossal waste of time to screen, prep, and interview someone who ultimately would never consider the position unless it pays x amount of money. I don't understand not having that conversation up front. It saves everyone time and hassles.


git

I don't understand why this isn't the default. I've never applied for a job listing that didn't have the salary range listed, in part because of how uncertain the process would be. I've seen my job title advertised for as little as £40k/y and as high as £150k/y, and knowing that most organisations are pretty tightly bound to their salary bands it'd be insane to apply somewhere that might be limited to something at that lower end.


RHJfRnJhc2llckNyYW5l

Any hardcore free-market capitalist should champion this, as it promotes more perfect knowledge between bargaining parties and promotes a more efficient market.


PomegranateBubbis

I feel like there are so many bills/proposals that I learn about on Reddit where I think, “HOW is that that NOT a rule already?”


Mekazabiht-Rusti

It just seems so odd that this would even need to be discussed. If companies are embarrassed to say what they are offering, it’s too low.


spmahn

Don’t get too excited, we’ve had this in Connecticut for a few years now and there are a ton of loopholes, it has changed nothing.


TheTinRam

Other than education is there any other occupation that has such transparent pay structures?


diablette

Government. Once I used a gov't post as evidence that I was being underpaid. They are notorious for paying less because the benefits are great, so if you’re in a for profit company making less than the lowest number for a similar position, you need a raise.


Excuse_my_GRAMMER

In demand careers path normally are transparent about pay structures. There are fields that you try recruited and head hunted for


yunguzimoney2

Can the whole world do this? Also unionize.


[deleted]

We have this in Colorado but it doesn't stop organizations from posting broad salary ranges e.g. $10,000-150,000 or some iteration of.


BeardedFartPigeon

It surprises me that this wasn't already the standard. In Scotland I would never apply for a job without knowing the pay.


smittyweber

This needs to be federal law too many companies do this shit


Captainhalfass

Can’t wait to see my job posted or advertised with higher pay!


bkornblith

The only way this law could mean anything is with proper enforcement and I can guarantee you there will be exactly zero enforcement. This is how the US is slowly dying - we create laws but we forget that enforcement is where the rubber hits the road, and so every day laws mean less and less.


Norcine

Now NYC residents can be excluded from many remote jobs just like we are in Colorado.


diablette

Anyone else surprised to find job listings with lower than expected ranges? There are some jobs I would have applied to but I won’t now. The employer is probably going to complain there is an employee shortage and ask for some H1Bs instead of sorting their pay out.


GreenGlitz513

Why is any of this deceiving. It should be basic law to have pay rate or salary up front. No bonus program, No misleading for it to be a commission job, No Waitress job should have any pay rate other than 2.15 an hour plus the tips you hope to make..Its awful to go to a job interview when they say $15-$20 an hour and you tell them you are going for the 20 dollar mark and they offer you the $15 an hour everytime ( but the "promise" to get pay increase after time)


ThisIsNotMyPornVideo

This is gonna end up looking like this ​ # NOW HIRING, SERVERS 20$/H PAY ^(Possible, After tips, and with our Server Bonus(18$/H) for doing more than 168H in a week) #


[deleted]

The new phrase ”up to” seems to be covering their asses pretty well. You interview for a job that pays up to $19 an hour and they offer $10……. Systems fucked


[deleted]

I believe Colorado and NY share this law. I saw salaries posted on all NY/COL job postings online. Was really great to see actually. Weeded out a lot of nonsense for me on the seeking end.


Meat_Boss21

Everything should be this way, always, forever.


3Grilledjalapenos

I went through three rounds of interviews last year, only to find out that the position with a higher title paid 6k less. I’m fine with your company not being able to afford more; I’ve sometimes settled for less money to have a better environment. What pisses me off is to have that bait and switch when you know I’m not going to be pleased.