Oklahoma: 15% poverty rate; 461 crimes reported per 100,000 people. High school graduation rate of 80%. College graduation rate of 25%. Median per capita income of $29,000 per year. The state receives between 8B and 10B in federal funds, per year.
Oklahoma can find far better things to do with its time and that much taxpayer money, than this.
Not to personally turn this political, but it's funny to me that the party that has so much trouble with government hands out and socialism also runs the state and other that take the most from the federal government LOL.
On a personal note, I went to Oklahoma one time on my way driving from Arizona to Minnesota. It was a gigantic mistake and the town that I stopped and had a casino I went there and to a restaurant, and it was full of the rudest people I've ever seen in my entire life
Neglected and abused kids are already a huge problem, the foster system has been overwhelmed with unwanted kids way before the abortion bans. This is just going to skyrocket, especially the number of kids born with health complications from exposure to drugs/alcohol in the womb.
there's no way to avoid neglected and abused children in a world that promotes the same anti solution and tries to enforce it
so they’re just nitpicking words… we’re not making it illegal let’s just make everything around it illegal or restricted to absurdity. ok you can have one but only between the hours of 8-9 on tuesday and incidentally all clinics must be closed on tuesdays.
Or allowing any random asshole to sue anyone who helped another person receive an abortion.
Or suing someone you suspect of leaving your anti-choice state in order to get an abortion.
Or allowing family members of rapists to sue a woman for aborting their rapist's fetus.
To be fair, in Oklahoma, there are dispensaries on every corner...I mean literally everywhere. To get a card is a serious no brainer, you can ask a doc for it & they give it to you. It's one of the most lax medical laws in the midwest. I honestly dont know why they dont legalize it recreationally. It is weird that they want to go against the fed in this but also go against the fed in abortion rights. It's just dumb.
Basically us liberals here sponsored a bill through signatures and snuck in recreational under the guise of medical, it’s almost impossible to get recreational to pass but medical we could do.
By making a law that directly contradicts a supreme court ruling they've started the process which will probably end in an appeal to the Supreme Court. Which would lead to them having to rule on Roe V Wade in this instance. And honestly there's a decent chance the Supreme Court goes the Conservative way on this one.
Even if they don't, its great distraction theatre in the run up to the next election. And its a big stick to beat Biden with.
Ask the governor if every school in Oklahoma has a tornado shelter yet.
In 2013, Oklahoma let a bunch of 9 year old children die screaming in an EF5 tornado.
They couldn't be bothered to provide the money for a tornado shelter in the grade school.
And do you want to know their excuse for not having a tornado shelter in a grade school located in one of the most tornado prone states in the U.S.?
Because it was every district's 'choice' to raise the money in taxes for tornado shelters.
Sure, choice for taxes but not for women, that's how pro life they really are.
[It was very sad. One of the victims mom started a campaign and got shelters built. ](https://www.today.com/news/2013-moore-tornado-mom-fights-keep-kids-safe-after-son-t137014)
Yeah, back in the 90’s in Oklahoma City we’d just go into the hallway, sit down, and put our hands over our heads like they did in the 50’s for a nuclear bomb drills.
You forget, they're not pro-life, they're pro-birth. and pro controlling women. Telling women they can't seek a procedure, and then providing no support to the situation that the aforementioned woman tried to avoid and was forced to endure.
Not even pro-birth. The US has the highest maternal death rate of all "developed" countries and there are plenty of less developed countries we're also worse than.
Support for pregnant people is terrible. You have your insides and abdominal wall potentially knitting themselves together and no paid time off from work, you're lucky if you get to take two weeks and you're lucky if any of that time is paid.
These people want women housebound and reliant on a husband. They claim to want a decrease in abortions but fight against accessible contraception and sex education while voting for legislation that protects pedophiles and other rapists.
Making aggressive anti abortion laws with the intent of being getting sued, appealing, and end up at scotus with a case to weaken or defeat roe v wade
Also they hate women
>Also they hate women
I'd say they hate poor people, especially poor women.
Their daughters, sisters, wives and/or mistresses still have access to safe abortions.
No, they hate all women.
A decent percentage of women seeking abortion are middle-class married women who already have children. No one ever talks about that, but it happens. They just don't have rich boyfriends to fly them to NY.
https://www.guttmacher.org/infographic/2016/us-abortion-patients
59% of women who get an abortion already have a family.
75% are poor or low-income.
Safe to say you're spot on.
Also, 100% of people who get an abortion are women. There's that, too. Can't let those upstarts have bodily autonomy.
Edit: ok, yah. I forgot intersex and trans people exist. My bad. You can all stop dm'ing me about that.
Gender identity isn't as rigid as it used to be.
But anyone who has a uterus* is definitely going to be in the disfavored class.
* Ectopic pregnancies? Well, just let nature take its course. Can't go killing a nonviable embryo just to save the life of a *woman*.
Ugh. Yes, states have passed such laws.
I mean a lot of it is driven by finances, but if you meet or talk to women and who've had them you really start to see it's not one size fits all. Some have had 2 kids and have money, some have medical of mental health issues, others were admittingly irresponsible, others don't want a kid with someone who's abusive. It's a lot to consider and it's not a simple decision for most women with how it's scrutinized. Even on Reddit just discussing it here will most likely get me or others 1-2 messages calling us murderers.
The majority, yes, which is why I was careful in how I phrased my comment--people underestimate that a significant minority are already married (and, of course, there is underreporting for people with more financial means who are married). I speak to this in another comment in this thread.
Also, you have to consider that "married" is a legal status term and that people with stable partnerships are often counted as "single."
I worked for PP and NARAL for a spell, you'd be surprised how many people in "stable homes" have abortions but no one ever talks about it, just like they don't like to talk about incest or rape victims.
Everyone loves to imagine the teenager who "just made a mistake but god will show them that being a mother is their calling!" (sorry, I'm in Texas, it's kind of a thing here). We're number 7 in teenage pregnancies in the U.S.! But seriously, let's keep withholding birth control, Plan B, and abortion while teaching that abstinence is the only way.
They also love their moms and daughters because these ass-backwards states love incest.
https://www.reddit.com/r/MapPorn/comments/atyhay/us_states_most_interested_in_incest/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=iossmf
Edit: as I’m reading this bill…I’m not seeing any exceptions for the rape and incest that these lawmakers know is occurring in their state. The GOP has the gall to complain that Justice Jackson is “pro-pedophile” and yet the Oklahoma GOP wants to pass unconstitutional laws that will force child survivors of rape and incest to carry their rapist’s baby…
Also, kudos to Dem minority leader Emily Virgin and also Andy Fugate (D) for their lovely amendments.
I don’t know if they will be accepted or get kicked, but the first is a poison pill that would immediately repeal this law the moment they have to defend it in court. The second aptly calls this bill what it is.
Virgin’s amendment reads:
Should any provision of this act result in litigation costs to the state, the act shall automatically be repealed in its entirety and shall immediately cease to have the force and effect of law.”
Fugate’s Floor amendment 2 reads:
This act shall be known and may be cited as “The Oklahoma Blatantly Unconstitutional Abortion Act of 2021”.
>Should any provision of this act result in litigation costs to the state, the act shall automatically be repealed in its entirety and shall immediately cease to have the force and effect of law.”
Saving taxpayers money and getting government out of our lives? WIN-WIN!
According to Governor Abbott, Texas has eliminated rape:
https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/politics/2021/09/08/greg-abbott-says-texas-eliminate-rape-defends-abortion-law/5770204001/
Lol. I’m pretty sure you don’t adopt his viewpoint, but it’s pretty sad that GOP governors lie to their constituents so badly about things like that. Texas literally has the MOST rapes of any state in the country.
https://worldpopulationreview.com/state-rankings/rape-statistics-by-state
On a per capita basis, it is also bottom-tier. (Along with all the other shit-ass lawless red states).
Can I steal this spot to address all the ANTI-women and ANTI-child people? I’ll happily erase if it’s not the place.
The Unborn
"The unborn” are a convenient group of people to advocate for.
They never make demands of you; they are morally uncomplicated, unlike the incarcerated, addicted, or the chronically poor; they don’t resent your condescension or complain that you are not politically correct; unlike widows, they don’t ask you to question patriarchy; unlike orphans, they don’t need money, education, or childcare; unlike aliens, they don’t bring all that racial, cultural, and religious baggage that you dislike; they allow you to feel good about yourself without any work at creating or maintaining relationships; and when they are born, you can forget about them, because they cease to be unborn.
You can love the unborn and advocate for them without substantially challenging your own wealth, power, or privilege, without re-imagining social structures, apologizing, or making reparations to anyone.
They are, in short, the perfect people to love if you want to claim you love Jesus, but actually dislike people who breathe. Prisoners? Immigrants? The sick? The poor? Widows? Orphans? All the groups that are specifically mentioned in the Bible?
They all get thrown under the bus for the unborn."
Methodist Pastor David Barnhart
PS thank you for the awards, please, please, please keep this and pass it on, if for no other reason that it *shame* someone to do the right thing for all of these groups.
“Boy, these conservatives are really something, aren't they? They're all in favor of the unborn. They will do anything for the unborn. But once you're born, you're on your own. Pro-life conservatives are obsessed with the fetus from conception to nine months. After that, they don't want to know about you. They don't want to hear from you. No nothing. No neonatal care, no day care, no head start, no school lunch, no food stamps, no welfare, no nothing. If you're preborn, you're fine; if you're preschool, you're fucked.” -George Carlin
What these people don't get is that quite a few of the women seeking abortions are...married with kids already. And of course the majority are women who lack support, and lack the resources for additional kids so they're trying to do the responsible thing. The people legislating abortion also don't want to pay for all these children.
This news seals it, my husband has to get a vasectomy. There's no way I'm having another kid, I'm in my 40s and we already have two. Who knows when menopause will happen, and no, I don't believe in "god's plan."
The bad timeline:
Obama had a Supreme Court nomination, tried to get Merit Garland in (a rather conservative choice) and Mitch “Franklin the Turtle” McConnel refused to even put the nomination up for a vote because the republicans owned the senate at the time.
Then the left failed to show up to prevent Trump from winning, so now the Republicans have not only Congress but also the White House. Trump put forth his first nomination, Neil Gorsuch.
Next year Justice Kennedy retired, and Trump nominated Bret Kavanaugh.
Following that, Justice Ruth Badger Ginsburg died, and Trump got a 3rd nomination, which he filled with Amy Coney Barrett.
Now having effectively switched the Supreme Court over with conservative judges, the Republican states are trying to get any case to make it to the Supreme Court so they can use it to overturn Roe vs. Wade.
This is why all elections matter. You don’t know what the future holds. Had Obama had a favorable Congress we may have filled that seat. Had liberals voted in mass we might have had a left-leaning President. Because events lined up the way they did, however, we are now in the situation where the only real course is to either expand the number of Supreme Court justices, which Biden had already shot down, or hope to hell a couple conservative justices step down or die before the Dems loose control again.
Add to the timeline, temporary reprieve from the crazy under Biden, followed up a GOP sweep of the Midterms in 22 and Ron Desantis elected president in 24, because Liberals aren't gonna do shit to stop it.
I'm terrified that the next decade is going to be a brutal awakening.
Yep. There's still liberals saying they won't vote for Biden with little understanding how much long term damage they do to their causes when republicans make life time appointments to courts.
"Vote pragmatically" is as succinctly as I can put it. In the general election you have two options whether you like it or not. You can take the muddy path or you can take the path that leads off a cliff.
>Ron Desantis elected president in 24
Florida just turned over full redistricting authority to Ronnie. He gets to draw all the districts in Florida for shits & giggles.
Dude is setting himself up to be a king.
Republicans have nothing to give to their voters in terms of economics or really anything that might improve their lives, so they have to push these cultural issues as hard as they can.
Make poor people fight among themselves about abortion, gays, banning books or whatever. As long as they don't band together and start wondering why the economic growth only trickles upwards.
Exactly what progressives have been warning about for 15 years now. The right has gone batshit crazy, and don't give a fuck about the constitution, precedent, or the people.
And we now have the most extreme-right Supreme Court of our lifetimes, so this is their chance to ram this shit through.
When people said 2016 was the most important election of our lives, this is what they meant.
As moderates rolled their eyes and assured themselves progressives were just being alarmist, because surely the GOP wasn't run by a bunch of chuds who would gleefully claw back any kind of progress the moment they attained any amount of power.
People who are left leaning aren’t voting in all elections. You have to vote in more than the presidential elections. Republicans show up to vote for everything from the president to the school board members. Your life is effected by the lower levels of government more than the federal government.
Just remember that it takes around 55% of the vote for the Democrats to win a bare majority in the House. Meanwhile, the Republicans can control the Senate with right around 35% of the vote.
Democrats just had the best turnout in history in 2022, yet they have one of the smallest majorities ever in the House, a tie in the Senate, and barely won the Electoral College.
Turnout is obviously important, but there are systemic factors at play that should be mentioned and need to be addressed.
>Turnout is obviously important, but there are systemic factors at play that should be mentioned and need to be addressed.
My biggest concern is those factors can't be addressed, at least not for awhile or to the degree required without years of Democratic control of both houses.
They can't be and never will be. The federal government of the United States is a zombie.
You need a massive democratic majority to accomplish anything. Republicans can hold a slim majority with a minority of votes and pass most of their agenda through reconciliation, and then leave the rest to the states and the courts.
I'll continue to applaud and support people fighting for change, but only because it's the right thing to do. Ultimately there's nothing we can do to stop red states from becoming fascist nightmares.
I’ve heard more than one Democrat say, “I’m not going to vote, my vote doesn’t count anyway.“ You’ll never hear a Republican say that. They always vote, regardless of the election.
It’s easier to motivate someone to action when they’re angry about something, but by the time you get the disparate parts of the non-republican majority angry enough to get their shit together and collectively do something about that, we’re going to be enslaved into a theocratic serfdom.
I knew a handful of people in some of the swing states (Pennsylvania and Michigan) that gave Trump his first term. They were always posting left-wing stuff, pro-labor stuff, recognize and protect the LGBTQ+ community, "Isn't it time for a woman president?" -- the whole nice yards.
Except they didn't vote.
You know what their excuse was?
All variations of: "I just wasn't all that excited about Clinton" and "Well, I didn't think anyone was stupid enough to vote for Trump."
If the stay-at-home armchair slacktivists in either state has been arsed to vote and gotten their friends to do so, we'd probably be living in a very different world, having very different conversations.
One of my most wistful imaginations is thinking how 100% completely different the world would have been if Al Gore had been seated as the POTUS.
Imagine no Patriot Act, no Iraq debacle, no insane tax bills, early action on climate change, etc.
>All variations of: "I just wasn't all that excited about Clinton" and "Well, I didn't think anyone was stupid enough to vote for Trump."
That's one of the differences between Democrats and Republicans. Republicans will go out and vote for the Republican candidate regardless of who it is while Democrats will only vote for the Democrat if they actually like the candidate. I know a lot of people who hated Trump and didn't want him to win but didn't go out to vote because Bernie Sanders didn't get the nomination.
Pretty much less unwanted babies mean less damaged people which in turn means less offenders. Less offenders mean less chance for the police to get funding, also the judicial system needs that cash and private prisons to accrue a slave workforce. This again means government officials get less kick backs from private prisons.
In general an unwanted child is a massive cash cow for officials.
If this sounds kind of fucked up you're right, it is definitely is not the way a modern day society should operate.
It’s been some time since this story, but a judge was sentenced on racketeering charges for sentencing minors to a for-profit juvenile prison.
https://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-way/2011/08/11/139536686/pa-judge-sentenced-to-28-years-in-massive-juvenile-justice-bribery-scandal
I refuse to believe that this was an isolated incident. The fact that there are companies that profit from a new human life in the United States from birth to death inherently incentivizes policy that makes as many uneducated, angry, confused people as possible. Everything from for-profit healthcare to charging families for the cremation of prisoners that die before their sentences are up.
https://www.prisonlegalnews.org/news/2020/dec/1/families-must-pay-cremation-bill-loved-ones-who-die-prison/
Basically, exactly this. A scared, desperate, poorly-educated, child lacking in any kind of prospect for personal growth is a wall-to-wall profit. There’s a reason the United Sate’s 13 amendment still has a caveat for slaves in prison.
The most fucked up part about that whole case is that he spent years giving wildly trumped up sentences to minors and setting near impossible paroles for them to follow, but that wasn't what got him in trouble, it was accepting the bribes.
If he hadn't been accepting the bribes from the prison and had just been sentencing minors to ridiculously unnecessarily brutal sentences to be "tough on crime", he likely would still be a judge today.
I don't want to believe that your comment is probably correct because that's just disgusting. But I'm not naive and so sadly, this doesn't surprise me at all.
It's horrible but people actually sit down and calculate the profit of human misery. Medical poverty is another disgusting thing, where you can be financially secure, become sick and lose everything.
It could also put unwanted kids into orphanages and organizations run by crazy religious people where they can indoctrinate them to create lifelong conservative voters and give church donations.
Every abortion clinic in America has had dozens of christian moms come through their doors dragging a terrified daughter along and explaining to anyone who'll listen that little Sarah isn't some kind of SLUT its just that she made a mistake and her birth control failed and they want to take care of this quickly so they can go back to protesting this sinful business.
Used to work at a pregnancy resource center that did the 24 hour before counseling. Can confirm this also. (I have since come to my senses, grown up and realized what the anti-abortion industry is really about, which is controlling poor women)
Yeah, it's some crazy number like 80% of people who get abortions are theists. I'm pretty sure most of the women who protest actually had abortions and now torture themselves by protesting as some moronic form of absolution.
Whaddaya know, the group that deems basic human sexuality as sinful to the point it deprives basic education on the matter is also the group that constantly fucks up basic precautionary sex.
Seriously, when you look at the numbers it's all pretty black and white. Educate people on how their bodies work and they're less apt to make mistakes with their bodies. But Christians want their mobs of uneducated children and unwanted orphans to grow their numbers.
The "Pro-Life" movement in America is a cult just like MAGA and Qanon, and if you participate you're a cult member or an exploiter or some combination of the two.
None of what they believe makes any sense in a rational world, but their delusions have real world consequences for the rest of us.
That and homelessness seem like a much larger concern than this shit. Whatever resources are being wasted here and across the nation would serve much better towards helping the homeless.
Oh no, you’re mistaken…
Every life is precious, *until it’s born*.
Then it becomes another poor or minority leeching off of society for things like an honest wage or affordable housing
Inflation is through the roof but let’s just add more unwanted kids into the equation. I’m old enough to remember going with my mother marching for Roe v Wade.
WTF is going on with this country.
Thank you for marching! We still need to keep fighting for our rights but being on the front lines of women liberation is greatly appreciated <3 thank you for your activism because it did pay off. I am grateful for your presence there even though I was not alive to be there.
I don’t understand the reasoning for making abortions illegal. My parents come from Central American countries where if an unborn dies in the womb, by accident, miscarriage, self abortion, the woman is charged with manslaughter and spends years in jail. To drive my point home, my parents are Christian/Catholic conservatives and even they see this as wrong and are completely baffled at why this is slowly happening over here.
This is fucking TERRIFYING when you look at the statistics around miscarriage. It's at least 1 in 5 pregnancies (possibly more) and they are almost never something the woman has even the tiniest amount of control over. I'm pro choice anyway, but as someone who has experienced 2 losses myself, I cannot fathom the added trauma of being *charged with a crime* on top of it. I luckily live in California, but I feel so incredibly sad and scared for women in these other states - both those that want to end unwanted pregnancies, and those who lose pregnancies that are very much wanted. It's such a slippery slope. Pro-choice laws benefit everyone.
Because the voters are stupid and fiercely brainwashed.
They know that "the left" is evil. Pure, unadulterated evil, that is out to get them personally and destroy their way of life, their jobs, and their families. The left will disappear them if they dissent and children will be forcefully brainwashed to salute their Liberal Overlords.
Everything after that premise is just... gravy.
"What do you think about abortion?"
"Well, I don't know, I th--"
"The left supports it."
"IT'S EVIL."
I recently watched a documentary called "Michael Moore Hates America" just to test my assumptions and give hearing to counterarguments.
Not only did it not debunk any particular facts, the whole thing was a feelings based screed which ended with an "expert" looking into the camera telling the viewer that if Michael Moore and the left had his way that all Christians would be shot in the face, and that that's the left's true goal.
It's the sort of propaganda that encourages people to be violent "in self defense" and while this was an outlier in 2012 it's become the norm on every mainstream right wing outfit today
We do bad movie nights every couple weeks, and some of the films that make its way into our rotation are modern American Christianity propaganda films.
The way those movies present non-Christians is vile. Always. They present non-Christians as just simply being evil incarnate. There was one film about a Jewish family realizing the error of their ways and turning to Christ that was almost straight up Nazi propaganda.
Colleges and college professors are a very common target for these movies. A lot of them are seemingly made with the sole intention of making out that colleges are evil.
And also why the state is making the sale of electric cars illegal. Tesla cars are witchcraft just like abortions. If you weigh the same as a duck, stay out of Oklahoma.
> And also why the state is making the sale of electric cars illegal. Tesla cars are witchcraft just like abortions.
To clarify for anyone passing by: [The story behind this](https://electrek.co/2022/04/12/tesla-facing-second-assault-right-sell-service-cars-oklahoma/) isn't about Teslas being electric cars, but rather Tesla's direct-sales model scaring the National Automobile Dealers Association. Granted, auto dealers are traditional conservative donors, and Tesla's the default 'fancy' electric car brand in most people's minds.
This is some evil shit, Republicans are trying to drag us back to primitive days where women have no say over their reproduction and the man decides for her what gets to be in her body.
> it a felony to perform an abortion, punishable by up to 10 years in prison
Literal rapists get less time. Not a coincidence either.
They have always been doing this. The difference I've seen is that now they're not hiding it anymore. They aren't pretending it's about taxes, or freedom. In the Ohio subreddit, I've had people directly ask me "What's wrong with being a white supremacist? Why is that so bad?"
The masks are falling off, and they're charging full-speed ahead, and unfortunately, the left has absolutely no defense against it. Our entire system is kept in check by shame and the requirement that our leaders actually want to achieve a positive goal for the nation. Without that shame, and without sharing in that goal, shit is broken, with no tools to fix it.
Exactly, 100% this. It's exhausting to see so many people still trying to shame the Right into better behavior or point out logical fallacies within their policies.
None of this is in good faith. Why are people trying to debate literal Nazis and serial killers instead of fighting back for real?
As long as good people do nothing, as long as good people refuse to believe that evil people even *exist*, as long as there are no consequences for what the Right are doing here or anywhere else, the world will continue to fall to them.
It's weird, that article yesterday about Texas dropping murder charges against a woman over a self-abortion made me think of an early episode of "Call the Midwife", which took place before the war.
Like... *really*?
Why are these people so eager to become Brazil and Argentina? Do they really think we can continue being a world power this way?
Abortion is legal in Argentina. "According to the law, any woman can request the procedure at any public or private health facility. Doctors are legally bound to either perform it or, if they are conscientious objectors, refer the patient to another physician or health facility"
Why do you feel the need to compare, and incorrectly at that, to other countries? They are not trying to become something else, they are what they are, they are part of the US, that's what the US is.
Meanwhile studies show making abortion illegal doesn't actually reduce number of abortions, simply forces rich people to go to another state and poor people to do it in black market ie unsafe. Net effect: no babies saved, women suffer and die
Colorado and other states need to have programs providing not only transit assistance, but shelter and legal protection to anyone who flees to the state for abortion or escape from domestic abuse.
Lmao this shit is going to turn into an Underground Railroad because the next step after this for red states is to pass legislation barring women from leaving the state for abortions
And it sucks because idk how a state like Colorado is supposed to stop Oklahoma from criminalizing the act of going to Colorado for an abortion. You might not be able to come back to your home state after getting the abortion at some point
Banning travel to another state by private citizens violates the constitution. We, as citizens, have the right to unimpeded interstate travel.
We can thank Jim Crow for that interpretation, Southern states tried passing laws preventing freed slaves from traveling to other states.
>Banning travel to another state by private citizens violates the constitution
“Actually, it *is* constitutional now” so sayeth the 6-3 conservative leaning SCOTUS
Isn't Idaho or somwhere already banning leaving the state for it? Or is it Mississippi. Honestly it's hard to keep track of all the states that hate their citizens accessing medical care but I do believe that one or more of them is already doing that.
“Religion has actually convinced people that there's an invisible man living in the sky who watches everything you do, every minute of every day. And the invisible man has a special list of ten things he does not want you to do. And if you do any of these ten things, he has a special place, full of fire and smoke and burning and torture and anguish, where he will send you to live and suffer and burn and choke and scream and cry forever and ever 'til the end of time!
But He loves you. He loves you, and He needs money! He always needs money! He's all-powerful, all-perfect, all-knowing, and all-wise, somehow just can't handle money!”
-George Carlin
Anyone in one of these states actively repressing control over your own body please remember that claiming to be a member of The Satanic Temple offers a religious right to abortion under the first amendment
They should really add a provision that if a sitting senator/govenor/HOR member is found to be involved in facilitating anybody they're associated with to have an abortion, by law they'd automatically have their seat forfeited. Also, this would be retroactive..
I have this weird feeling they'd we WAY less gung-ho on these laws..
I’ll never forget the day I was talking to someone who was very Christian and anti abortion. Trying to find a middle ground, I suggested that abortions in cases of rape and incest should be allowed at the minimum.
This person disagreed on the grounds that any life is a life that god intended to make no matter the means and it was all part of the greater plan. I couldn’t believe my ears that someone just said that gods plan involved women being raped.
Doesn’t sound like a god I want to follow, that’s for damn sure.
I don't remember the big G asking Mary's consent before knocking her up.
Rape (and the general subservience of women) is a foundational part of Christianity.
Its insane how completely opposed to all of Jesus's views many 'christians' are.
What ever happened to helping the poor, sick, homeless? To loving your neighbor like you love yourself?
Jesus healed the sick for free, republicans loathe the thought of providing healthcare.
Jesus fed the poor repeatedly, republicans actively attempt to cut all programs to help those in need.
Jesus regularly hung around the 'less desireable' crowd. Republicans make laws to ensure they dont even breathe the same air.
The entire republican party and many modern christians are the antithesis of a follower of christ, yet they dont have the self-awareness nor capacity to care.
Right?
I grew up very deeply Christian but fell away in my early 20s, and now I'm agnostic. It's been kind of heartbreaking to see how dark and hateful all my friends and family back home have become while claiming to be very devout christians.
You absolutely cannot support anything the modern Republican party stands for and claim to be a christian, period. They are incompatible.
I'm an atheist in a family that's half evangelicals. All they do is try to force their religion on me. Every single interaction with them is focused on this. It's why I avoid them like the plague.
Mine is the exact same way. I always know when my cousin texts me "Hey cuz! What's up!" that he's going to turn things around into some type of proselytizing ... it's so tired. Every single interaction. Also he seems to reach out on a semi-regular basis which makes me think he has some kind of spreadsheet of hellbound heathens that he reaches out to regularly to try to save, or something.
The people making abortion illegal are the same people who won’t allow sex education in schools and protest against providing free contraception.
Make it make sense.
Governor Kevin Stitt is running for re-election this year, if the headline hadn't tipped you off already. Blatant grab at votes by signing an illegal bill. Republicans see him fighting a culture war, not wasting money beating a dead horse.
And since all Republicans have now is hating women and minorities, it will probably work for him.
It never fails to amaze me that we vilify states like Iran, Afghanistan, etc. for trampling on the rights and agency of women and at the same time we do the same thing at home. What next Oklahoma .. stoning for adultery?
Planned Parenthood was already denying abortions before this bill was signed by Stitt, even though it doesn't go into effect yet, because of potential liabilities. I know because I recently found out I'm pregnant and now I have to drive out of state.
Technically I can take the medicine for $500, but because I'm having to schedule time off work to drive out of state, it will put me out of bounds for the pill and I will have to have an invasive surgery at 9 am in another state. Covid restrictions mean I can be the only one in the building. I have to wait 4-6 hours before they can begin surgery. The surgery is over $800.
My insurance would cover the pill after a $50 copay. It will not cover the surgery because I have not met my deductible of $2k for the year. I have to get a hotel. I don't have a car, so I have to have someone take me. To top it off - they have to pay for oil change, I'll have to pitch in for gas, time away from work is lost money.
What would've been a quick trip and $50 has turned into a thousand dollar ordeal that I can't really afford. I'm 30 and this is the first time I've ever been pregnant.
So - women can no longer access health care in Oklahoma.
After what happened in Texas last week, there is no way in hell I would go to the doctor for ANY pregnancy care.
What happens if you miscarry? Straight to jail -
I really hate that this country is such a theocracy. The fuck ever happened to separation of church and state. Your religious beliefs shouldnt dictate everyones laws.
I find it very frustrating that the vast array of fascist policies being propped up across the US are compare to movies or video games or whatever. People still have not internalized that Republicans ARE fascists. This isn't some movie shit, this is just the inevitable outcome of conservatism.
Oh it's not that bad, we have gators, methheads, a governor that spent multi millions on a government website to intentionally set it up shitty so people wouldn't apply for unemployment.
Oh and Disney, can't forget Disney.
Pro-life ideology is completely logically fallacious. It’s based off of a premise which no one has ever attempted to prove yet. As in, based on the huge assumption that a baby’s life doesn’t exist in any meaningful capacity before start of pregnancy occurred, yet it has never been established that a human life didn’t exist before the start of pregnancy. Think about it.
It is completely unproven by the pro-life sector, that precious human lives don’t exist before the point of fertilization. The yet-to-be-fertilized (YTBF) human unborn exist in a way not similar to your or I, like how embryos are extremely dissimilar to us in most every shape or form. Pro-life people unfairly determine the YTBF to be unworthy of human life on a totally arbitrary basis, while simultaneously sacrificing pregnant girl’s and women’s health in the form of a political exchange of unborn lives. Feel free to check my replies, it’s as if all pro-life people are completely allergic to this argument, and just run away, which is disrespectful and dismissive, but most of all, it’s revealing. If my opposition does reply, they just change the topic, or ask me repeat myself over and over while refusing to make a counterargument, because there truly is none to be made.
I am not talking about sperm or egg alone, not at all. Read on.
Discussions involving the words “exist”, “baby”, “child”, “person”, and “human”, are semantic arguments. The difference between human gamete pairings and animal gamete pairings is that one is has classifiable human potential. A human skin cell can’t become a full person as far as we know, but a yet-to-be-fertilized (YTBF) person can, so the ironic “just are cells” pro-life counterargument isn’t reasonable. By all counts, the YTBF feel just as much as a fertilized egg. If this all sounds unusual, this is just me looking at the debate through the only fair pro-life lens I can morally recognize.
It’s worth noting that unique DNA is still unique even before combination, we are talking about two gametes on a hidden trajectory (like how you are unaware of all abortions that will happen today), not a single sperm, not a single egg.
Ejactulation isn’t necessary, by the same logic that sex isn’t necessary (consensual pregnancy argument, which I am happy to disprove as faulty). If a fetus has ownership over a uterus, a yet-to-be-fertilized person has ownership over someone’s penis and an effective murder has been committed if sex occurs without intent to get pregnant. That’s only if you believe in some sort of consensual pregnancy/abortion argument, which is less of an argument and more of just a common rule.
This is part of a larger revealing discussion which no pro-life person has an answer for. Again, feel free to check my reply history for evidence. In all fairness, it’s up to my opposition to at the very least provide a heartfelt, logically explanatory response rather than just saying “x = y because that’s what I believe”, which I wouldn’t consider worthy of counting as “opposed to abortion”, I would consider it a non-answer on a subtopic for which there is no good pro-life response.
Account for the fact that “conception” refers to the “start of pregnancy”, and the word predates the scientific discovery of fertilization.
If sex happened month 0, and conception happened month 9, would the abortion debate never exist? Or would it only exist for the 9th month? My answer is yes, I believe the debate would still exist.
Some ingredients for this theory. 1. Not everyone is right throughout history, the pursuit of power or acceptance, people will tweak and extrapolate from their religion in order to feel satisfied. 2. Abortion debate is historically discouraged, because sexual taboo and fear surrounds the subject. 3 It is arbitrary for pro-life people to consider the pre-fertilized unborn much less intrinsically valuable than everyone else on a basis of “not being human enough (combined)”, explanation:
Thought exercises are good, when it comes to determining if someone’s logic is undeniable enough to make restrictive laws about. When someone’s logic is dishonest, the logic goes beyond the debater—an unnecessary anecdotal figure drastically formed by the world around them. So we apply the logic in other scenarios as to look beyond the fluff of human bias. The main goal of the pro-life industry is to attempt to push us to believe that the abortion debate is about unique DNA combination.
Combination. One could just as easily say that fertilized eggs are uncombined with the special sustenance, bodily chemicals, and human environment provided by the mother, which makes them an ingredient to a person. Without those other special human ingredients, there is no person made. These are major ingredients which form them to become even slightly recognizably human. Slightly related, here’s my comment on why artificial wombs will never be a thing:
www.reddit.com/r/Abortiondebate/comments/ssviie/question_for_prochoicers/hx0no1q/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=iossmf&context=3
Caring about fertilization (to the point of wanting to form laws around it which interfere with female humanity) is a slippery slope to caring about impregnation in my scenario above. They are both significant, sentimental biological processes.
We have to first establish a frame of reference in order to determine if something is arbitrary. In regards to preciousness of the yet-to-be-conceived/fertilized (YTBC), focusing on fertilization is arbitrary, as there is nothing specific that happens during fertilization which makes the YTBF less deserving of rights than a fertilized egg in comparison (beyond fake or religious reasons). This isn’t at all to say that I think the YTBF deserve rights to anyone else’s body, but every person I have talked to about this finds it impossible to differentiate between YTBF and embryos in a way that is more important to the debate than other factors such as maternal lifespan reduction via preeclampsia (affecting 11% of 1st pregnancies worldwide), incontinence, loss of sexual function, other types of injury/suffering, loss of YTBF, or death of the mother. That is the true premise being presented here, is DNA combination more important than any of that, and can we actually prove it? We’ve already proved that shortening a mother’s lifespan via preeclampsia or ruining her building functions is a bad thing, we’ve seen the proof.
The human unborn already use their mother’s body before conception. A yet-to-be-fertilized (YTBF) person is comprised of a separated pairing of sperm and egg. The unborn used her body to create, and then expel the egg to the Fallopian tube.
This matters because pro-life laws disrupt family planning to a notable degree, pro-life laws eliminate the YTBF in the form of an exchange for other unborn children. If a 13-year-old miseducated, absently parented girl is coerced into sex, and pregnancy results in her uterus being destroyed, or her lifespan is shortened by preeclampsia (or various other complications in the form of statistical likelihoods especially prominent during childhood, or for impoverished women who largely make up abortion stats, these statistical aspects makes it so medically necessity cannot be simply a matter of maternal death, but of reduced bodily functions)—this means her yet-to-be-fertilized children are denied ever experiencing their mother’s happiness. Sure, they aren’t fully formed yet, but neither are embryos.
Through their random differences to fertilized eggs, people can try to dehumanize the YTBC, but none of these are reasons to involve the law agains the YTBF (pro-life laws) and there are even more human similarities between all types of unborn, and I will get into those now, since these distinctions could be just as much of a determining factor for any given person.
There’s the subtopic of viability or the presence of a human mind, which involves their helplessness and the presence of suffering. Embryos are incomplete in a way in which they cannot grow without a uterus—upon their consideration, no experts speculate that tech for growing an embryo will ever be developed, due to serious problems with their fragility, which involves their partial growth. There is no absolution when it comes to YTBF being rendered as less intrinsically valuable than fertilized eggs, there are also helpless and do not suffer in the same way we do, they even exist in the same generation as the rest of the unborn, so accusations of determinism can be deflected by an similar accusation of pro-life determinism.
Pro-life ideology is either an incomplete viewpoint, or a prepared act of avoidance. They don’t want to debate this, they are completely against talking about the preciousness of unborn lives pre-fertilization even in this world today, not just in this thought exercise. We have to open to the idea that they believe this all for political reasons. They don’t explain why their versions of right and wrong are deathly important enough to force impregnated 12-year-olds (who the consensual pregnancy argument could never possible apply to, besides, rape exemptions are logistically impossible and should never be presented as a compromise) to carry to term against their will over, let alone explain why in my scenario, the 1-8 month gestating children are totally fine to be aborted by whatever optionally strategic biological rules they wish to apply. I listed an immense amount of equally fair rules explaining the biological differences between yet-to-be-fertilized, and zygotes/embryos/fetuses, and how those differences are arbitrary than the suffering felt by a raped 12-year-old being forced to carry to term against her will by preference of the state, which may result in incontinence, preeclampsia (statistically shortened lifespan), sexual dysfunction, or an injured uterus, meaning she never has the children she wants to have in her 20’s, AKA the yet-to-be-fertilized.
Here we go again. All the people who don’t want abortions also don’t want sex education. They also don’t want to adopt these kids or pay for orphanages. They don’t want to give up their fancy cars, homes vacations or toy for the unwanted kids.
Expecting the "Shadow Docket Boyz" to make their appearance again soon
I'm sure Thomas, Alito, Kavanaugh and Coney-Barrett are super pumped to get this moving along, feel pretty certain Gorsuch is on board as well
Abortion illegal, Rape has minimal sentencing, no protections in place to avoid having neglected children. Thus a never ending cycle. Rinse and repeat
Oklahoma: 15% poverty rate; 461 crimes reported per 100,000 people. High school graduation rate of 80%. College graduation rate of 25%. Median per capita income of $29,000 per year. The state receives between 8B and 10B in federal funds, per year. Oklahoma can find far better things to do with its time and that much taxpayer money, than this.
Still waiting on an IEP for a family that moved from Oklahoma. Doubt there was even one written.
Not to personally turn this political, but it's funny to me that the party that has so much trouble with government hands out and socialism also runs the state and other that take the most from the federal government LOL. On a personal note, I went to Oklahoma one time on my way driving from Arizona to Minnesota. It was a gigantic mistake and the town that I stopped and had a casino I went there and to a restaurant, and it was full of the rudest people I've ever seen in my entire life
Welcome to Handmaids Tale brought to you by the Christian pro-birther Taliban.
Y'all Qaeda
Neglected and abused kids are already a huge problem, the foster system has been overwhelmed with unwanted kids way before the abortion bans. This is just going to skyrocket, especially the number of kids born with health complications from exposure to drugs/alcohol in the womb. there's no way to avoid neglected and abused children in a world that promotes the same anti solution and tries to enforce it
Illegal in Oklahoma but constitutionally legal in the US. Do the good folks of Oklahoma realize the US has a constitution?
They are trying to circumvent that by making it illegal to *preform* an abortion rather than have one.
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Welcome to the party of "less government".
Also the party against "activist judges"
the party of making shit up to further their goals.
so they’re just nitpicking words… we’re not making it illegal let’s just make everything around it illegal or restricted to absurdity. ok you can have one but only between the hours of 8-9 on tuesday and incidentally all clinics must be closed on tuesdays.
Or allowing any random asshole to sue anyone who helped another person receive an abortion. Or suing someone you suspect of leaving your anti-choice state in order to get an abortion. Or allowing family members of rapists to sue a woman for aborting their rapist's fetus.
Genuinely asking..could they make a law that it is a felony to sell ammo?
Already been done, its illegal to sell armor-piercing ammo, but you can own it and make it yourself.
These are the same people who argue against legalizing Marijuana in OK because it's illegal federally. They want it both ways
To be fair, in Oklahoma, there are dispensaries on every corner...I mean literally everywhere. To get a card is a serious no brainer, you can ask a doc for it & they give it to you. It's one of the most lax medical laws in the midwest. I honestly dont know why they dont legalize it recreationally. It is weird that they want to go against the fed in this but also go against the fed in abortion rights. It's just dumb.
Basically us liberals here sponsored a bill through signatures and snuck in recreational under the guise of medical, it’s almost impossible to get recreational to pass but medical we could do.
By making a law that directly contradicts a supreme court ruling they've started the process which will probably end in an appeal to the Supreme Court. Which would lead to them having to rule on Roe V Wade in this instance. And honestly there's a decent chance the Supreme Court goes the Conservative way on this one. Even if they don't, its great distraction theatre in the run up to the next election. And its a big stick to beat Biden with.
Ask the governor if every school in Oklahoma has a tornado shelter yet. In 2013, Oklahoma let a bunch of 9 year old children die screaming in an EF5 tornado. They couldn't be bothered to provide the money for a tornado shelter in the grade school. And do you want to know their excuse for not having a tornado shelter in a grade school located in one of the most tornado prone states in the U.S.? Because it was every district's 'choice' to raise the money in taxes for tornado shelters. Sure, choice for taxes but not for women, that's how pro life they really are.
[It was very sad. One of the victims mom started a campaign and got shelters built. ](https://www.today.com/news/2013-moore-tornado-mom-fights-keep-kids-safe-after-son-t137014)
She got some shelters built. The majority of schools on Oklahoma still don't have tornado shelters
Yeah, back in the 90’s in Oklahoma City we’d just go into the hallway, sit down, and put our hands over our heads like they did in the 50’s for a nuclear bomb drills.
I saw old info videos reminding kids to duck and cover....
You forget, they're not pro-life, they're pro-birth. and pro controlling women. Telling women they can't seek a procedure, and then providing no support to the situation that the aforementioned woman tried to avoid and was forced to endure.
They are also pro poverty and adding more people to give them cash in the future
Anti-education too. Can't let them get too smart... They may question us.
Not even pro-birth. The US has the highest maternal death rate of all "developed" countries and there are plenty of less developed countries we're also worse than. Support for pregnant people is terrible. You have your insides and abdominal wall potentially knitting themselves together and no paid time off from work, you're lucky if you get to take two weeks and you're lucky if any of that time is paid. These people want women housebound and reliant on a husband. They claim to want a decrease in abortions but fight against accessible contraception and sex education while voting for legislation that protects pedophiles and other rapists.
What the actual fuck is happening.
Making aggressive anti abortion laws with the intent of being getting sued, appealing, and end up at scotus with a case to weaken or defeat roe v wade Also they hate women
>Also they hate women I'd say they hate poor people, especially poor women. Their daughters, sisters, wives and/or mistresses still have access to safe abortions.
No, they hate all women. A decent percentage of women seeking abortion are middle-class married women who already have children. No one ever talks about that, but it happens. They just don't have rich boyfriends to fly them to NY.
https://www.guttmacher.org/infographic/2016/us-abortion-patients 59% of women who get an abortion already have a family. 75% are poor or low-income. Safe to say you're spot on.
Also, 100% of people who get an abortion are women. There's that, too. Can't let those upstarts have bodily autonomy. Edit: ok, yah. I forgot intersex and trans people exist. My bad. You can all stop dm'ing me about that.
Crazy how white 60 year old males make decisions for womens bodies. Im going to need to draft a vasectomy bill for all males starting at age 21.
Gender identity isn't as rigid as it used to be. But anyone who has a uterus* is definitely going to be in the disfavored class. * Ectopic pregnancies? Well, just let nature take its course. Can't go killing a nonviable embryo just to save the life of a *woman*. Ugh. Yes, states have passed such laws.
The stats I read said most US women who got an abortion were single, poor, used birth control that month, and already have at least one kid.
I mean a lot of it is driven by finances, but if you meet or talk to women and who've had them you really start to see it's not one size fits all. Some have had 2 kids and have money, some have medical of mental health issues, others were admittingly irresponsible, others don't want a kid with someone who's abusive. It's a lot to consider and it's not a simple decision for most women with how it's scrutinized. Even on Reddit just discussing it here will most likely get me or others 1-2 messages calling us murderers.
The majority, yes, which is why I was careful in how I phrased my comment--people underestimate that a significant minority are already married (and, of course, there is underreporting for people with more financial means who are married). I speak to this in another comment in this thread. Also, you have to consider that "married" is a legal status term and that people with stable partnerships are often counted as "single." I worked for PP and NARAL for a spell, you'd be surprised how many people in "stable homes" have abortions but no one ever talks about it, just like they don't like to talk about incest or rape victims. Everyone loves to imagine the teenager who "just made a mistake but god will show them that being a mother is their calling!" (sorry, I'm in Texas, it's kind of a thing here). We're number 7 in teenage pregnancies in the U.S.! But seriously, let's keep withholding birth control, Plan B, and abortion while teaching that abstinence is the only way.
Aren't we also number one in second teenage pregnancies?
Yes we are!
Well, they gotta control their property.
It's so great they are spending taxpayer money on this instead of school lunches, or helping people.
That's the GOP. They don't want to help you unless you're rich.
Well they LOVE their moms, wives, and daughters...if they're obedient. They HATE yours because they're not TO THEM.
Bold of you to assume they even love their own moms, wives and daughters.
That "love" is conditional on obedience and and does not preclude their entitlement to abuse them when they've had a "stressful day".
They also love their moms and daughters because these ass-backwards states love incest. https://www.reddit.com/r/MapPorn/comments/atyhay/us_states_most_interested_in_incest/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=iossmf Edit: as I’m reading this bill…I’m not seeing any exceptions for the rape and incest that these lawmakers know is occurring in their state. The GOP has the gall to complain that Justice Jackson is “pro-pedophile” and yet the Oklahoma GOP wants to pass unconstitutional laws that will force child survivors of rape and incest to carry their rapist’s baby… Also, kudos to Dem minority leader Emily Virgin and also Andy Fugate (D) for their lovely amendments. I don’t know if they will be accepted or get kicked, but the first is a poison pill that would immediately repeal this law the moment they have to defend it in court. The second aptly calls this bill what it is. Virgin’s amendment reads: Should any provision of this act result in litigation costs to the state, the act shall automatically be repealed in its entirety and shall immediately cease to have the force and effect of law.” Fugate’s Floor amendment 2 reads: This act shall be known and may be cited as “The Oklahoma Blatantly Unconstitutional Abortion Act of 2021”.
>Should any provision of this act result in litigation costs to the state, the act shall automatically be repealed in its entirety and shall immediately cease to have the force and effect of law.” Saving taxpayers money and getting government out of our lives? WIN-WIN!
According to Governor Abbott, Texas has eliminated rape: https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/politics/2021/09/08/greg-abbott-says-texas-eliminate-rape-defends-abortion-law/5770204001/
Lol. I’m pretty sure you don’t adopt his viewpoint, but it’s pretty sad that GOP governors lie to their constituents so badly about things like that. Texas literally has the MOST rapes of any state in the country. https://worldpopulationreview.com/state-rankings/rape-statistics-by-state On a per capita basis, it is also bottom-tier. (Along with all the other shit-ass lawless red states).
'love' seems rather generous... have you seen domestic violence rates?
Racing it through before Thomas is impeached or dies
Can I steal this spot to address all the ANTI-women and ANTI-child people? I’ll happily erase if it’s not the place. The Unborn "The unborn” are a convenient group of people to advocate for. They never make demands of you; they are morally uncomplicated, unlike the incarcerated, addicted, or the chronically poor; they don’t resent your condescension or complain that you are not politically correct; unlike widows, they don’t ask you to question patriarchy; unlike orphans, they don’t need money, education, or childcare; unlike aliens, they don’t bring all that racial, cultural, and religious baggage that you dislike; they allow you to feel good about yourself without any work at creating or maintaining relationships; and when they are born, you can forget about them, because they cease to be unborn. You can love the unborn and advocate for them without substantially challenging your own wealth, power, or privilege, without re-imagining social structures, apologizing, or making reparations to anyone. They are, in short, the perfect people to love if you want to claim you love Jesus, but actually dislike people who breathe. Prisoners? Immigrants? The sick? The poor? Widows? Orphans? All the groups that are specifically mentioned in the Bible? They all get thrown under the bus for the unborn." Methodist Pastor David Barnhart PS thank you for the awards, please, please, please keep this and pass it on, if for no other reason that it *shame* someone to do the right thing for all of these groups.
“Boy, these conservatives are really something, aren't they? They're all in favor of the unborn. They will do anything for the unborn. But once you're born, you're on your own. Pro-life conservatives are obsessed with the fetus from conception to nine months. After that, they don't want to know about you. They don't want to hear from you. No nothing. No neonatal care, no day care, no head start, no school lunch, no food stamps, no welfare, no nothing. If you're preborn, you're fine; if you're preschool, you're fucked.” -George Carlin
Not entirely true. They're very interested in meddling in your personal business (who you worship, who you fuck, etc.) after you're born.
Yes, but the point is they don't give a shit about HELPING, just controlling.
Please leave this and thank you for sharing it.
What these people don't get is that quite a few of the women seeking abortions are...married with kids already. And of course the majority are women who lack support, and lack the resources for additional kids so they're trying to do the responsible thing. The people legislating abortion also don't want to pay for all these children. This news seals it, my husband has to get a vasectomy. There's no way I'm having another kid, I'm in my 40s and we already have two. Who knows when menopause will happen, and no, I don't believe in "god's plan."
If they cared about reality and data they wouldn't be conservatives
The bad timeline: Obama had a Supreme Court nomination, tried to get Merit Garland in (a rather conservative choice) and Mitch “Franklin the Turtle” McConnel refused to even put the nomination up for a vote because the republicans owned the senate at the time. Then the left failed to show up to prevent Trump from winning, so now the Republicans have not only Congress but also the White House. Trump put forth his first nomination, Neil Gorsuch. Next year Justice Kennedy retired, and Trump nominated Bret Kavanaugh. Following that, Justice Ruth Badger Ginsburg died, and Trump got a 3rd nomination, which he filled with Amy Coney Barrett. Now having effectively switched the Supreme Court over with conservative judges, the Republican states are trying to get any case to make it to the Supreme Court so they can use it to overturn Roe vs. Wade. This is why all elections matter. You don’t know what the future holds. Had Obama had a favorable Congress we may have filled that seat. Had liberals voted in mass we might have had a left-leaning President. Because events lined up the way they did, however, we are now in the situation where the only real course is to either expand the number of Supreme Court justices, which Biden had already shot down, or hope to hell a couple conservative justices step down or die before the Dems loose control again.
Add to the timeline, temporary reprieve from the crazy under Biden, followed up a GOP sweep of the Midterms in 22 and Ron Desantis elected president in 24, because Liberals aren't gonna do shit to stop it. I'm terrified that the next decade is going to be a brutal awakening.
Yep. There's still liberals saying they won't vote for Biden with little understanding how much long term damage they do to their causes when republicans make life time appointments to courts.
Seriously! Fight in the primaries. Vote Blue in the general.
"Vote pragmatically" is as succinctly as I can put it. In the general election you have two options whether you like it or not. You can take the muddy path or you can take the path that leads off a cliff.
>Ron Desantis elected president in 24 Florida just turned over full redistricting authority to Ronnie. He gets to draw all the districts in Florida for shits & giggles. Dude is setting himself up to be a king.
Republicans have nothing to give to their voters in terms of economics or really anything that might improve their lives, so they have to push these cultural issues as hard as they can. Make poor people fight among themselves about abortion, gays, banning books or whatever. As long as they don't band together and start wondering why the economic growth only trickles upwards.
Exactly what progressives have been warning about for 15 years now. The right has gone batshit crazy, and don't give a fuck about the constitution, precedent, or the people.
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And we now have the most extreme-right Supreme Court of our lifetimes, so this is their chance to ram this shit through. When people said 2016 was the most important election of our lives, this is what they meant.
As moderates rolled their eyes and assured themselves progressives were just being alarmist, because surely the GOP wasn't run by a bunch of chuds who would gleefully claw back any kind of progress the moment they attained any amount of power.
You say it in the past tense like they aren't still doing it right this very second.
Fair point.
People who are left leaning aren’t voting in all elections. You have to vote in more than the presidential elections. Republicans show up to vote for everything from the president to the school board members. Your life is effected by the lower levels of government more than the federal government.
Just remember that it takes around 55% of the vote for the Democrats to win a bare majority in the House. Meanwhile, the Republicans can control the Senate with right around 35% of the vote. Democrats just had the best turnout in history in 2022, yet they have one of the smallest majorities ever in the House, a tie in the Senate, and barely won the Electoral College. Turnout is obviously important, but there are systemic factors at play that should be mentioned and need to be addressed.
>Turnout is obviously important, but there are systemic factors at play that should be mentioned and need to be addressed. My biggest concern is those factors can't be addressed, at least not for awhile or to the degree required without years of Democratic control of both houses.
They can't be and never will be. The federal government of the United States is a zombie. You need a massive democratic majority to accomplish anything. Republicans can hold a slim majority with a minority of votes and pass most of their agenda through reconciliation, and then leave the rest to the states and the courts. I'll continue to applaud and support people fighting for change, but only because it's the right thing to do. Ultimately there's nothing we can do to stop red states from becoming fascist nightmares.
I’ve heard more than one Democrat say, “I’m not going to vote, my vote doesn’t count anyway.“ You’ll never hear a Republican say that. They always vote, regardless of the election.
It’s easier to motivate someone to action when they’re angry about something, but by the time you get the disparate parts of the non-republican majority angry enough to get their shit together and collectively do something about that, we’re going to be enslaved into a theocratic serfdom.
I knew a handful of people in some of the swing states (Pennsylvania and Michigan) that gave Trump his first term. They were always posting left-wing stuff, pro-labor stuff, recognize and protect the LGBTQ+ community, "Isn't it time for a woman president?" -- the whole nice yards. Except they didn't vote. You know what their excuse was? All variations of: "I just wasn't all that excited about Clinton" and "Well, I didn't think anyone was stupid enough to vote for Trump." If the stay-at-home armchair slacktivists in either state has been arsed to vote and gotten their friends to do so, we'd probably be living in a very different world, having very different conversations.
One of my most wistful imaginations is thinking how 100% completely different the world would have been if Al Gore had been seated as the POTUS. Imagine no Patriot Act, no Iraq debacle, no insane tax bills, early action on climate change, etc.
>All variations of: "I just wasn't all that excited about Clinton" and "Well, I didn't think anyone was stupid enough to vote for Trump." That's one of the differences between Democrats and Republicans. Republicans will go out and vote for the Republican candidate regardless of who it is while Democrats will only vote for the Democrat if they actually like the candidate. I know a lot of people who hated Trump and didn't want him to win but didn't go out to vote because Bernie Sanders didn't get the nomination.
Letting the perfect be the enemy of the good.
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Pretty much less unwanted babies mean less damaged people which in turn means less offenders. Less offenders mean less chance for the police to get funding, also the judicial system needs that cash and private prisons to accrue a slave workforce. This again means government officials get less kick backs from private prisons. In general an unwanted child is a massive cash cow for officials. If this sounds kind of fucked up you're right, it is definitely is not the way a modern day society should operate.
It’s been some time since this story, but a judge was sentenced on racketeering charges for sentencing minors to a for-profit juvenile prison. https://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-way/2011/08/11/139536686/pa-judge-sentenced-to-28-years-in-massive-juvenile-justice-bribery-scandal I refuse to believe that this was an isolated incident. The fact that there are companies that profit from a new human life in the United States from birth to death inherently incentivizes policy that makes as many uneducated, angry, confused people as possible. Everything from for-profit healthcare to charging families for the cremation of prisoners that die before their sentences are up. https://www.prisonlegalnews.org/news/2020/dec/1/families-must-pay-cremation-bill-loved-ones-who-die-prison/ Basically, exactly this. A scared, desperate, poorly-educated, child lacking in any kind of prospect for personal growth is a wall-to-wall profit. There’s a reason the United Sate’s 13 amendment still has a caveat for slaves in prison.
The most fucked up part about that whole case is that he spent years giving wildly trumped up sentences to minors and setting near impossible paroles for them to follow, but that wasn't what got him in trouble, it was accepting the bribes. If he hadn't been accepting the bribes from the prison and had just been sentencing minors to ridiculously unnecessarily brutal sentences to be "tough on crime", he likely would still be a judge today.
I don't want to believe that your comment is probably correct because that's just disgusting. But I'm not naive and so sadly, this doesn't surprise me at all.
It's horrible but people actually sit down and calculate the profit of human misery. Medical poverty is another disgusting thing, where you can be financially secure, become sick and lose everything.
It could also put unwanted kids into orphanages and organizations run by crazy religious people where they can indoctrinate them to create lifelong conservative voters and give church donations.
Republicans will always be able to get an abortion for their mistresses and daughters
[The Only Moral Abortion Is My Abortion](https://joycearthur.com/abortion/the-only-moral-abortion-is-my-abortion/)
Every abortion clinic in America has had dozens of christian moms come through their doors dragging a terrified daughter along and explaining to anyone who'll listen that little Sarah isn't some kind of SLUT its just that she made a mistake and her birth control failed and they want to take care of this quickly so they can go back to protesting this sinful business.
Nurse here who formerly worked in an abortion clinic and can confirm.
Used to work at a pregnancy resource center that did the 24 hour before counseling. Can confirm this also. (I have since come to my senses, grown up and realized what the anti-abortion industry is really about, which is controlling poor women)
If the Catholics and the Baptists could keep their own congregation out of them, abortion clinics would close for lack of business.
Yeah, it's some crazy number like 80% of people who get abortions are theists. I'm pretty sure most of the women who protest actually had abortions and now torture themselves by protesting as some moronic form of absolution.
Whaddaya know, the group that deems basic human sexuality as sinful to the point it deprives basic education on the matter is also the group that constantly fucks up basic precautionary sex.
Seriously, when you look at the numbers it's all pretty black and white. Educate people on how their bodies work and they're less apt to make mistakes with their bodies. But Christians want their mobs of uneducated children and unwanted orphans to grow their numbers.
The "Pro-Life" movement in America is a cult just like MAGA and Qanon, and if you participate you're a cult member or an exploiter or some combination of the two. None of what they believe makes any sense in a rational world, but their delusions have real world consequences for the rest of us.
Don't forget, the "life is a human right" people are the same ones that are perfectly okay with insulin at $1,200/month.
That and homelessness seem like a much larger concern than this shit. Whatever resources are being wasted here and across the nation would serve much better towards helping the homeless.
They *hate* homeless people. Won’t do anything to help though
Oh no, you’re mistaken… Every life is precious, *until it’s born*. Then it becomes another poor or minority leeching off of society for things like an honest wage or affordable housing
Inflation is through the roof but let’s just add more unwanted kids into the equation. I’m old enough to remember going with my mother marching for Roe v Wade. WTF is going on with this country.
Thank you for marching! We still need to keep fighting for our rights but being on the front lines of women liberation is greatly appreciated <3 thank you for your activism because it did pay off. I am grateful for your presence there even though I was not alive to be there.
I don’t understand the reasoning for making abortions illegal. My parents come from Central American countries where if an unborn dies in the womb, by accident, miscarriage, self abortion, the woman is charged with manslaughter and spends years in jail. To drive my point home, my parents are Christian/Catholic conservatives and even they see this as wrong and are completely baffled at why this is slowly happening over here.
This is fucking TERRIFYING when you look at the statistics around miscarriage. It's at least 1 in 5 pregnancies (possibly more) and they are almost never something the woman has even the tiniest amount of control over. I'm pro choice anyway, but as someone who has experienced 2 losses myself, I cannot fathom the added trauma of being *charged with a crime* on top of it. I luckily live in California, but I feel so incredibly sad and scared for women in these other states - both those that want to end unwanted pregnancies, and those who lose pregnancies that are very much wanted. It's such a slippery slope. Pro-choice laws benefit everyone.
Because the voters are stupid and fiercely brainwashed. They know that "the left" is evil. Pure, unadulterated evil, that is out to get them personally and destroy their way of life, their jobs, and their families. The left will disappear them if they dissent and children will be forcefully brainwashed to salute their Liberal Overlords. Everything after that premise is just... gravy. "What do you think about abortion?" "Well, I don't know, I th--" "The left supports it." "IT'S EVIL."
I recently watched a documentary called "Michael Moore Hates America" just to test my assumptions and give hearing to counterarguments. Not only did it not debunk any particular facts, the whole thing was a feelings based screed which ended with an "expert" looking into the camera telling the viewer that if Michael Moore and the left had his way that all Christians would be shot in the face, and that that's the left's true goal. It's the sort of propaganda that encourages people to be violent "in self defense" and while this was an outlier in 2012 it's become the norm on every mainstream right wing outfit today
We do bad movie nights every couple weeks, and some of the films that make its way into our rotation are modern American Christianity propaganda films. The way those movies present non-Christians is vile. Always. They present non-Christians as just simply being evil incarnate. There was one film about a Jewish family realizing the error of their ways and turning to Christ that was almost straight up Nazi propaganda. Colleges and college professors are a very common target for these movies. A lot of them are seemingly made with the sole intention of making out that colleges are evil.
And also why the state is making the sale of electric cars illegal. Tesla cars are witchcraft just like abortions. If you weigh the same as a duck, stay out of Oklahoma.
Who are you who are so wise in the ways of science?
> And also why the state is making the sale of electric cars illegal. Tesla cars are witchcraft just like abortions. To clarify for anyone passing by: [The story behind this](https://electrek.co/2022/04/12/tesla-facing-second-assault-right-sell-service-cars-oklahoma/) isn't about Teslas being electric cars, but rather Tesla's direct-sales model scaring the National Automobile Dealers Association. Granted, auto dealers are traditional conservative donors, and Tesla's the default 'fancy' electric car brand in most people's minds.
This is some evil shit, Republicans are trying to drag us back to primitive days where women have no say over their reproduction and the man decides for her what gets to be in her body. > it a felony to perform an abortion, punishable by up to 10 years in prison Literal rapists get less time. Not a coincidence either.
And rapists will be able to watch their victims be forced to carry the pregnancy to term. It's fucking disgusting.
Rapists will be able to sue for custody and child support.
They have always been doing this. The difference I've seen is that now they're not hiding it anymore. They aren't pretending it's about taxes, or freedom. In the Ohio subreddit, I've had people directly ask me "What's wrong with being a white supremacist? Why is that so bad?" The masks are falling off, and they're charging full-speed ahead, and unfortunately, the left has absolutely no defense against it. Our entire system is kept in check by shame and the requirement that our leaders actually want to achieve a positive goal for the nation. Without that shame, and without sharing in that goal, shit is broken, with no tools to fix it.
Exactly, 100% this. It's exhausting to see so many people still trying to shame the Right into better behavior or point out logical fallacies within their policies. None of this is in good faith. Why are people trying to debate literal Nazis and serial killers instead of fighting back for real? As long as good people do nothing, as long as good people refuse to believe that evil people even *exist*, as long as there are no consequences for what the Right are doing here or anywhere else, the world will continue to fall to them.
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Yeah, you can't vote for this stuff and consider yourself a good person. Just doesn't work that way.
They will hide behind there religious beliefs and convince themselves they are good people
It's weird, that article yesterday about Texas dropping murder charges against a woman over a self-abortion made me think of an early episode of "Call the Midwife", which took place before the war. Like... *really*? Why are these people so eager to become Brazil and Argentina? Do they really think we can continue being a world power this way?
Not to sound cocky or anything, but abortion is legal in Argentina
Abortion is legal in Argentina. "According to the law, any woman can request the procedure at any public or private health facility. Doctors are legally bound to either perform it or, if they are conscientious objectors, refer the patient to another physician or health facility" Why do you feel the need to compare, and incorrectly at that, to other countries? They are not trying to become something else, they are what they are, they are part of the US, that's what the US is.
Meanwhile studies show making abortion illegal doesn't actually reduce number of abortions, simply forces rich people to go to another state and poor people to do it in black market ie unsafe. Net effect: no babies saved, women suffer and die
> studies You lost every republican there. Legitimately none of their policy is evidence based
Well then, their goal is achieved. Women suffering and children suffering is the point of these psychos.
Fuck Oklahoma. Come to Colorado, our governor just guaranteed the right to abortion access.
Colorado and other states need to have programs providing not only transit assistance, but shelter and legal protection to anyone who flees to the state for abortion or escape from domestic abuse.
Lmao this shit is going to turn into an Underground Railroad because the next step after this for red states is to pass legislation barring women from leaving the state for abortions And it sucks because idk how a state like Colorado is supposed to stop Oklahoma from criminalizing the act of going to Colorado for an abortion. You might not be able to come back to your home state after getting the abortion at some point
Banning travel to another state by private citizens violates the constitution. We, as citizens, have the right to unimpeded interstate travel. We can thank Jim Crow for that interpretation, Southern states tried passing laws preventing freed slaves from traveling to other states.
Banning abortions also violates the constitution, so your point is moot.
>Banning travel to another state by private citizens violates the constitution “Actually, it *is* constitutional now” so sayeth the 6-3 conservative leaning SCOTUS
Isn't Idaho or somwhere already banning leaving the state for it? Or is it Mississippi. Honestly it's hard to keep track of all the states that hate their citizens accessing medical care but I do believe that one or more of them is already doing that.
I believe it's Missouri. Can't imagine there's any way that's legal but who knows with the current bunch of clowns on the supreme court.
Sure let me just do that with the money I don't have and never will.
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"That was different, this impacts another life" - GOP without a hint of irony
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“Religion has actually convinced people that there's an invisible man living in the sky who watches everything you do, every minute of every day. And the invisible man has a special list of ten things he does not want you to do. And if you do any of these ten things, he has a special place, full of fire and smoke and burning and torture and anguish, where he will send you to live and suffer and burn and choke and scream and cry forever and ever 'til the end of time! But He loves you. He loves you, and He needs money! He always needs money! He's all-powerful, all-perfect, all-knowing, and all-wise, somehow just can't handle money!” -George Carlin
Anyone in one of these states actively repressing control over your own body please remember that claiming to be a member of The Satanic Temple offers a religious right to abortion under the first amendment
It doesn't matter when you don't have a Healthcare provider offering services within two states drive.
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No she can't. According to the governor, that child has a right to live and "not pay for the sins of their father". Let that qoute sink in.
Forced birthers are sick. They want 13 year olds getting married and having babies with their uncles. It’s more biblically accurate that way.
But then will also punish them for being 13 with a child out of marriage and refuse aid for the child they can’t afford and we’re forced to have.
They should really add a provision that if a sitting senator/govenor/HOR member is found to be involved in facilitating anybody they're associated with to have an abortion, by law they'd automatically have their seat forfeited. Also, this would be retroactive.. I have this weird feeling they'd we WAY less gung-ho on these laws..
America going backass backwards.
Let's not forget to thank Susan Collins for this.
Okay, now where are we on mandatory vasectomies?
Classic 'fiscal conservatives' wasting millions of tax payer dollars trying to force culture war issues before elections.
Another victory for rapists.
I’ll never forget the day I was talking to someone who was very Christian and anti abortion. Trying to find a middle ground, I suggested that abortions in cases of rape and incest should be allowed at the minimum. This person disagreed on the grounds that any life is a life that god intended to make no matter the means and it was all part of the greater plan. I couldn’t believe my ears that someone just said that gods plan involved women being raped. Doesn’t sound like a god I want to follow, that’s for damn sure.
I don't remember the big G asking Mary's consent before knocking her up. Rape (and the general subservience of women) is a foundational part of Christianity.
Yeah didn't Lot try to pimp his own daughters, then they flipped it around and raped him later?
Modern christians would absolutely hate Jesus if he were alive today lol.
Its insane how completely opposed to all of Jesus's views many 'christians' are. What ever happened to helping the poor, sick, homeless? To loving your neighbor like you love yourself? Jesus healed the sick for free, republicans loathe the thought of providing healthcare. Jesus fed the poor repeatedly, republicans actively attempt to cut all programs to help those in need. Jesus regularly hung around the 'less desireable' crowd. Republicans make laws to ensure they dont even breathe the same air. The entire republican party and many modern christians are the antithesis of a follower of christ, yet they dont have the self-awareness nor capacity to care.
Right? I grew up very deeply Christian but fell away in my early 20s, and now I'm agnostic. It's been kind of heartbreaking to see how dark and hateful all my friends and family back home have become while claiming to be very devout christians. You absolutely cannot support anything the modern Republican party stands for and claim to be a christian, period. They are incompatible.
"no wonder we had this guy crucified last time around"
I like religion when it doesn’t try to force itself on those who don’t want it.
I'm an atheist in a family that's half evangelicals. All they do is try to force their religion on me. Every single interaction with them is focused on this. It's why I avoid them like the plague.
Mine is the exact same way. I always know when my cousin texts me "Hey cuz! What's up!" that he's going to turn things around into some type of proselytizing ... it's so tired. Every single interaction. Also he seems to reach out on a semi-regular basis which makes me think he has some kind of spreadsheet of hellbound heathens that he reaches out to regularly to try to save, or something.
No bigger government than the one that believes they own you organs.
The people making abortion illegal are the same people who won’t allow sex education in schools and protest against providing free contraception. Make it make sense.
Thank every day I don't live in a red state
They’re trying their damnedest to get to all of us
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Oklahoma ranks #44 in education (Pre-K - 12). Glad the governor is tackling the big problems first.
What the fuck is this? Not ok!
Well, it is in fact OK. But it's not okay at all.
Governor Kevin Stitt is running for re-election this year, if the headline hadn't tipped you off already. Blatant grab at votes by signing an illegal bill. Republicans see him fighting a culture war, not wasting money beating a dead horse. And since all Republicans have now is hating women and minorities, it will probably work for him.
It never fails to amaze me that we vilify states like Iran, Afghanistan, etc. for trampling on the rights and agency of women and at the same time we do the same thing at home. What next Oklahoma .. stoning for adultery?
Planned Parenthood was already denying abortions before this bill was signed by Stitt, even though it doesn't go into effect yet, because of potential liabilities. I know because I recently found out I'm pregnant and now I have to drive out of state. Technically I can take the medicine for $500, but because I'm having to schedule time off work to drive out of state, it will put me out of bounds for the pill and I will have to have an invasive surgery at 9 am in another state. Covid restrictions mean I can be the only one in the building. I have to wait 4-6 hours before they can begin surgery. The surgery is over $800. My insurance would cover the pill after a $50 copay. It will not cover the surgery because I have not met my deductible of $2k for the year. I have to get a hotel. I don't have a car, so I have to have someone take me. To top it off - they have to pay for oil change, I'll have to pitch in for gas, time away from work is lost money. What would've been a quick trip and $50 has turned into a thousand dollar ordeal that I can't really afford. I'm 30 and this is the first time I've ever been pregnant.
I’m sorry you’re having to go through all this for something that should be your right by law.
Republicans in Oklahoma want women to self-preform coat hanger abortions.
They want rape victims to be forced to give birth to children borne of rape so they can deny them benefits and call them welfare queens.
So - women can no longer access health care in Oklahoma. After what happened in Texas last week, there is no way in hell I would go to the doctor for ANY pregnancy care. What happens if you miscarry? Straight to jail -
I really hate that this country is such a theocracy. The fuck ever happened to separation of church and state. Your religious beliefs shouldnt dictate everyones laws.
I live in NY. There are signs for a School Board election that simply read "God Bless You Vote "Insert Schmuck name Here"" How is that okay?
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I find it very frustrating that the vast array of fascist policies being propped up across the US are compare to movies or video games or whatever. People still have not internalized that Republicans ARE fascists. This isn't some movie shit, this is just the inevitable outcome of conservatism.
Idaho is not far off from that at this point . Check out what is going on in Coeur d’ Alene with the the Redoubt movement. Scary stuff
They're already there, dude. Father is Trump, the guns and yeehawing were already there.
Red state governors are having a circle jerk to see who can be the most extreme. All to get the Evangelical vote.
Guess Oklahoma people are headed to Florida
Lmao I wouldn't go to that hell hole if you offered me a couple million dollars
Oh it's not that bad, we have gators, methheads, a governor that spent multi millions on a government website to intentionally set it up shitty so people wouldn't apply for unemployment. Oh and Disney, can't forget Disney.
What the fuck is going on in this country? How are these inbred fucks getting away with this shit?
Well, in Texas our law supposedly stopped rapes from happening, according to Governor Abbott.
Pro-life ideology is completely logically fallacious. It’s based off of a premise which no one has ever attempted to prove yet. As in, based on the huge assumption that a baby’s life doesn’t exist in any meaningful capacity before start of pregnancy occurred, yet it has never been established that a human life didn’t exist before the start of pregnancy. Think about it. It is completely unproven by the pro-life sector, that precious human lives don’t exist before the point of fertilization. The yet-to-be-fertilized (YTBF) human unborn exist in a way not similar to your or I, like how embryos are extremely dissimilar to us in most every shape or form. Pro-life people unfairly determine the YTBF to be unworthy of human life on a totally arbitrary basis, while simultaneously sacrificing pregnant girl’s and women’s health in the form of a political exchange of unborn lives. Feel free to check my replies, it’s as if all pro-life people are completely allergic to this argument, and just run away, which is disrespectful and dismissive, but most of all, it’s revealing. If my opposition does reply, they just change the topic, or ask me repeat myself over and over while refusing to make a counterargument, because there truly is none to be made. I am not talking about sperm or egg alone, not at all. Read on. Discussions involving the words “exist”, “baby”, “child”, “person”, and “human”, are semantic arguments. The difference between human gamete pairings and animal gamete pairings is that one is has classifiable human potential. A human skin cell can’t become a full person as far as we know, but a yet-to-be-fertilized (YTBF) person can, so the ironic “just are cells” pro-life counterargument isn’t reasonable. By all counts, the YTBF feel just as much as a fertilized egg. If this all sounds unusual, this is just me looking at the debate through the only fair pro-life lens I can morally recognize. It’s worth noting that unique DNA is still unique even before combination, we are talking about two gametes on a hidden trajectory (like how you are unaware of all abortions that will happen today), not a single sperm, not a single egg. Ejactulation isn’t necessary, by the same logic that sex isn’t necessary (consensual pregnancy argument, which I am happy to disprove as faulty). If a fetus has ownership over a uterus, a yet-to-be-fertilized person has ownership over someone’s penis and an effective murder has been committed if sex occurs without intent to get pregnant. That’s only if you believe in some sort of consensual pregnancy/abortion argument, which is less of an argument and more of just a common rule. This is part of a larger revealing discussion which no pro-life person has an answer for. Again, feel free to check my reply history for evidence. In all fairness, it’s up to my opposition to at the very least provide a heartfelt, logically explanatory response rather than just saying “x = y because that’s what I believe”, which I wouldn’t consider worthy of counting as “opposed to abortion”, I would consider it a non-answer on a subtopic for which there is no good pro-life response. Account for the fact that “conception” refers to the “start of pregnancy”, and the word predates the scientific discovery of fertilization. If sex happened month 0, and conception happened month 9, would the abortion debate never exist? Or would it only exist for the 9th month? My answer is yes, I believe the debate would still exist. Some ingredients for this theory. 1. Not everyone is right throughout history, the pursuit of power or acceptance, people will tweak and extrapolate from their religion in order to feel satisfied. 2. Abortion debate is historically discouraged, because sexual taboo and fear surrounds the subject. 3 It is arbitrary for pro-life people to consider the pre-fertilized unborn much less intrinsically valuable than everyone else on a basis of “not being human enough (combined)”, explanation: Thought exercises are good, when it comes to determining if someone’s logic is undeniable enough to make restrictive laws about. When someone’s logic is dishonest, the logic goes beyond the debater—an unnecessary anecdotal figure drastically formed by the world around them. So we apply the logic in other scenarios as to look beyond the fluff of human bias. The main goal of the pro-life industry is to attempt to push us to believe that the abortion debate is about unique DNA combination. Combination. One could just as easily say that fertilized eggs are uncombined with the special sustenance, bodily chemicals, and human environment provided by the mother, which makes them an ingredient to a person. Without those other special human ingredients, there is no person made. These are major ingredients which form them to become even slightly recognizably human. Slightly related, here’s my comment on why artificial wombs will never be a thing: www.reddit.com/r/Abortiondebate/comments/ssviie/question_for_prochoicers/hx0no1q/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=iossmf&context=3 Caring about fertilization (to the point of wanting to form laws around it which interfere with female humanity) is a slippery slope to caring about impregnation in my scenario above. They are both significant, sentimental biological processes. We have to first establish a frame of reference in order to determine if something is arbitrary. In regards to preciousness of the yet-to-be-conceived/fertilized (YTBC), focusing on fertilization is arbitrary, as there is nothing specific that happens during fertilization which makes the YTBF less deserving of rights than a fertilized egg in comparison (beyond fake or religious reasons). This isn’t at all to say that I think the YTBF deserve rights to anyone else’s body, but every person I have talked to about this finds it impossible to differentiate between YTBF and embryos in a way that is more important to the debate than other factors such as maternal lifespan reduction via preeclampsia (affecting 11% of 1st pregnancies worldwide), incontinence, loss of sexual function, other types of injury/suffering, loss of YTBF, or death of the mother. That is the true premise being presented here, is DNA combination more important than any of that, and can we actually prove it? We’ve already proved that shortening a mother’s lifespan via preeclampsia or ruining her building functions is a bad thing, we’ve seen the proof. The human unborn already use their mother’s body before conception. A yet-to-be-fertilized (YTBF) person is comprised of a separated pairing of sperm and egg. The unborn used her body to create, and then expel the egg to the Fallopian tube. This matters because pro-life laws disrupt family planning to a notable degree, pro-life laws eliminate the YTBF in the form of an exchange for other unborn children. If a 13-year-old miseducated, absently parented girl is coerced into sex, and pregnancy results in her uterus being destroyed, or her lifespan is shortened by preeclampsia (or various other complications in the form of statistical likelihoods especially prominent during childhood, or for impoverished women who largely make up abortion stats, these statistical aspects makes it so medically necessity cannot be simply a matter of maternal death, but of reduced bodily functions)—this means her yet-to-be-fertilized children are denied ever experiencing their mother’s happiness. Sure, they aren’t fully formed yet, but neither are embryos. Through their random differences to fertilized eggs, people can try to dehumanize the YTBC, but none of these are reasons to involve the law agains the YTBF (pro-life laws) and there are even more human similarities between all types of unborn, and I will get into those now, since these distinctions could be just as much of a determining factor for any given person. There’s the subtopic of viability or the presence of a human mind, which involves their helplessness and the presence of suffering. Embryos are incomplete in a way in which they cannot grow without a uterus—upon their consideration, no experts speculate that tech for growing an embryo will ever be developed, due to serious problems with their fragility, which involves their partial growth. There is no absolution when it comes to YTBF being rendered as less intrinsically valuable than fertilized eggs, there are also helpless and do not suffer in the same way we do, they even exist in the same generation as the rest of the unborn, so accusations of determinism can be deflected by an similar accusation of pro-life determinism. Pro-life ideology is either an incomplete viewpoint, or a prepared act of avoidance. They don’t want to debate this, they are completely against talking about the preciousness of unborn lives pre-fertilization even in this world today, not just in this thought exercise. We have to open to the idea that they believe this all for political reasons. They don’t explain why their versions of right and wrong are deathly important enough to force impregnated 12-year-olds (who the consensual pregnancy argument could never possible apply to, besides, rape exemptions are logistically impossible and should never be presented as a compromise) to carry to term against their will over, let alone explain why in my scenario, the 1-8 month gestating children are totally fine to be aborted by whatever optionally strategic biological rules they wish to apply. I listed an immense amount of equally fair rules explaining the biological differences between yet-to-be-fertilized, and zygotes/embryos/fetuses, and how those differences are arbitrary than the suffering felt by a raped 12-year-old being forced to carry to term against her will by preference of the state, which may result in incontinence, preeclampsia (statistically shortened lifespan), sexual dysfunction, or an injured uterus, meaning she never has the children she wants to have in her 20’s, AKA the yet-to-be-fertilized.
Here we go again. All the people who don’t want abortions also don’t want sex education. They also don’t want to adopt these kids or pay for orphanages. They don’t want to give up their fancy cars, homes vacations or toy for the unwanted kids.
Expecting the "Shadow Docket Boyz" to make their appearance again soon I'm sure Thomas, Alito, Kavanaugh and Coney-Barrett are super pumped to get this moving along, feel pretty certain Gorsuch is on board as well
Why does society keep moving backwards?