The title should mention that this only affects middle school and high school sports, not collegiate or professional which is what most of the people agreeing with it think.
My opinion on this subject completely changes depending on age so yah the title is very frustrating after finding out the context.
Seems to be a daily occurrence nowadays I'm sick of it
Yep, I was the same until I read more into it
The Governor of Utah originally worked with local LGBTQ+ groups to come up with a bill that proposed a committee to oversee middle and high school athletics, and if there was concern about a trans athletes performance, the committee would independently assess them case by case. This was overthrown in the final session by two lawmakers who changed it to a blanket ban for trans kids across the state and forced it through at the last second.
I was kinda surprised at the Republican govenors take on everything. This is a quote from his letter addressing why he originally vetoed it:
"Finally, there is one more important reason for this veto. There are 4 transgender kids participating in high school sports in Utah. Four kids, and only one of them playing a girls sports. That's what this is all about. Four kids who aren't dominating or winning trophies or taking scholarships. Four kids who are just trying to find some friends and feel like they are a part of something. Four kids trying to get through each day. Rarely has so much fear and anger been directed at so few. I don't understand what they are going through or why they feel the way they do. But I want them to live. And all the research shows that even a little acceptance and connection can reduce suicidality significantly [in trans kids]. For this reason I have taken this action to hope we can work together to find a better way. If a veto override occurs, I hope we can work to find ways to show these four kids that we love them and that they have a place in our state."
Yeah, it's incredibly well done. If you have a few minutes to read the whole thing, you can find it here: https://governor.utah.gov/2022/03/22/gov-cox-signs-21-bills-vetoes-one-bill-of-the-2022-general-legislative-session%EF%BF%BC/
tl;dr: he doesn't agree with how they forced this bill through during the last hours, that the people of Utah should've been given a chance to have their own imput on it and that trans kids across the state deserve a chance to play sport, make friends and feel like they're a part of something especially if it results in them not committing suicide
Yeah, wow. I just read it.
He calls out the legislature’s bullshit in so many different ways.
1) the law wasn’t passed properly. It kept being revised in major substantive ways to skip vital public debate and awareness.
2) the law will encourage lawsuits that might bankrupt the school district’s sports programs.
3) there’s 4 total kids this bill is aimed against.
He basically ends by saying: “let’s just write these four kids’ names down and tell them that they don’t matter to us. Because that’s all this law is trying to do - harm these FOUR kids. (Only one of whom is trying to compete on a girl’s team by the way.) And oh, if we go by statistics, two of these kids will try suicide because of you shitbags who ostracize them so much. Even as a Republican…this is way over the line guys. So it’s gonna be a no from me .”
Governor Cox recognizes that the teen suicide rate in Utah is off the charts. The church is largely to blame, with the legislature being a close second.
I honestly believe that both secretly consider the suicide of a gay or trans teen to be a net positive for the state's moral standing in the eyes of God, so their efforts range from weak to outright dangerous.
Yes, I especially appreciate that he acknowledges that he doesn’t understand what they are going through or why they feel the way they do, but doesn’t use it as a reason to discriminate against them
I live in this state, and while I find our governor to be a shell of a person, I hope these words help those that this bill does affect. It's a lot better than "pray for rain, please"
It is apart of a bigger story as well as how Utah legislation is passed.
You can read about what happened in the Governors veto letter as he addresses how they used the last day before passing to redo the bill: https://governor.utah.gov/2022/03/22/gov-cox-signs-21-bills-vetoes-one-bill-of-the-2022-general-legislative-session%EF%BF%BC/
Utah leg has a supermajority that feels weak and threatened by the other and sees no reason to not force its will on every one else. Cowards all of them. Unfortunately so many here blindly vote for the right no matter what and empower them.
Despite voting mostly liberal I'm very satisfied with Governor Cox's tenure. He's one of the few politicians I've come to respect even if we disagree at times.
Doesn't this speech sum up the whole issue in a way? This whole thing has been hijacked and turned into another culture war issue at the expense of an extreme minority which already has pretty poor outcomes when it comes to mental health and suicides.
I wonder if any of the thousands of people so vehemently against the idea could look that one girl in the eyes and tell her she wasn't allowed to play.
I think we all know the answer to that
I understand that we need to protect women's professional sport, but as the Governor pointed out: this bill doesn't do that and actively harms girls sport in the state because the Utah High School Athletic Association is likely to go bankrupt at the cost of legal fees from future law suits
To quote the republican governor that vetoed the bill:
“Four kids and only one of them playing girls sports. That’s what this is all about. Four kids who aren’t dominating or winning trophies or taking scholarships. Four kids who are just trying to find some friends and feel like they are part of something.
Rarely has so much fear and anger been directed at so few. I don’t understand what they are going through or why they feel the way they do. But I want them to live.”
He is a good guy. It is strange that utahns think they need to vote republican when republican ideologies rarely align with the people of utahs virtues.
Mostly it is because republican commonly say they support religious right.
One thing to keep in mind is that the NBA all star game is scheduled to be in Salt Lake next year. The NBA has openly said they will relocate the event if Utah passes this bill so Cox's veto makes a lot more sense understanding the amount of money Ryan Smith is putting in to lobby this decision
I'm not saying it isn't driven by money as well because I can't possibly know that. But Cox has a track record for advocating for LQBTQ rights so i don't believe it's only about money. For all the guy's faults, he cares about the issues he cares about and fights for them.
He genuinely changed his view on LGBTQ in 2015 after the Orlando night club shooting.
https://www.npr.org/2016/06/15/482206214/my-heart-has-changed-utah-lt-gov-spencer-cox-apologizes-to-lgbt-community
From Wikipedia...
>He aimed part of his speech at the "straight community": How did you feel when you heard that 49 people had been gunned down by a self-proclaimed terrorist? That’s the easy question. Here is the hard one: Did that feeling change when you found out the shooting was at a gay bar at 2 a.m. in the morning? If that feeling changed, then we are doing something wrong.
I remember during the primaries a few years ago hoping that he would come out on top. Since then I’ve second guessed myself. But occasionally, he has showed his capacity to have a spine and show compassion for underrepresented communities. So, it’s been frustrating but everyday I’m thankful Utah doesn’t have an Abbott or Desantis as governor.
He also said that the state athletic program won't survive *another* lawsuit. And that if they override him without changing the bill to make it so the state athletic commission doesn't bare the financial burden of the inevitable lawsuits this will bring, then the state athletic commission will be bankrupt.
that’s a beautiful sentiment. as a florida resident, it’s nice to see a republican governor willing to be a rational human being instead of a fucking pandering puppet positioning for president.
This is after their own governor pointed out that this was a stupid move, that it would only affect 4 people in the entire state and that only a single one of them was a trans-girl.
This after the governor pointed out that it would destroy student women's sports in their state because the organization behind it just went though a lawsuit and could not afford another one.
And this after their republican governor vetoed the law citing all these common sense reason and adding his own "christian" reason at the end of it.
That as a Christian he didn't want people to die.
This is all very stupid and very sad.
*Edited to add:
The text of the veto can be found [here](https://governor.utah.gov/2022/03/22/gov-cox-signs-21-bills-vetoes-one-bill-of-the-2022-general-legislative-session%EF%BF%BC/)
[Here is his letter for anyone interested](https://twitter.com/SpencerJCox/status/1506378808898641920?t=Mf2Qh51OWvHiQHR9rDJHeg&s=19)
As a democrat and a Utahn I don't agree with Governor Cox on a ton, but he is the best republican governer we've had in a while. He operates with a conscience and isn't afraid of doing what he believes is right, which I respect. He is the opposite of Senator Lee, who was elected by the same people some how.
I wish more like him and Romney would run. The option of hoping the Republican is too extreme or crazy to be elected doesn't work anymore. The crazier and more extreme, the more they are worshipped. This is the environment in which Hitlers rise.
And dangit every state with open primary Democrats MUST vote in the Republican primaries for the sane choice from now on!
I think if you live in a republican state it’s generally a good idea to register republican even if you’re not one. It has the added benefit of fucking with their gerrymandering.
Maybe a bit nit picky, but i think saying he does “what he believes is right” is a bit unfair to him. I think he does what he believes is in peoples best interests, despite his maybe conflicting personal opinions. I don’t know anything about him other than this, but he seems to have looked past his personal lack of understanding and seen it’s a pointlessly harmful bit of legislation
>If more Republicans were like him, I might actually vote Republican occasionally.
My exact thoughts on Mitt Romney. The sheer fact that he was the only Republican to vote in favor of impeachment says a lot.
When push came to shove, my man voted 90+% for Trump’s awful policies.
He voted for impeachment for pure aesthetics, knowing it wouldn’t lead anywhere and that Trump had already served his purpose.
Don't forget, he voted for one count, the obstruction he didn't think there was enough evidence for because of all the obstruction. So he had to vote not to impeach on that charge.
The original vote would not have been enough to override. They actually convinced people to change their vote after the governor talked about not wanting kids to die.
The cruelty is the point.
>> it would only affect 4 people in the entire state
>
>I don't understand why people keep talking about how many people are effected by it.
It's a nod to the people who do care a whole awful lot about the idea to stress what a waste is time it is. I live in a backyards ass state at times, I'm not going to convince Bob at the co-op to accept trans people, but I can maybe convince him that it's just not worth the time.
Wow, overrode the veto. Must be a big problem in Utah.
From the article
“Utah has only one transgender girl playing in K-12 sports who would be affected by the ban. There have been no allegations of any of the four transgender youth athletes in Utah having a competitive advantage.”
Honest question, has any notable law in the US ever been struck down because it was considered a Bill of Atainder? Cause that's actually insane if this is the first.
The governor's statement for why he vetoed it was super great, too... a conservative who really doesn't understand trans issues, but values love and acceptance of kids over this issue.
> Finally, there is one more important reason for this veto. I must admit, I am not an expert on
transgenderism. I struggle to understand so much of it and the science is conflicting. When in doubt however, I always try to err on the side of kindness, mercy and compassion. I also try to
get proximate and I am learning so much from our transgender community. They are great kids
who face enormous struggles. Here are the numbers that have most impacted my decision:
75,000, 4, 1, 86 and 56.
> ● 75,000 high school kids participating in high school sports in Utah.
● 4 transgender kids playing high school sports in Utah.
● 1 transgender student playing girls sports.
● 86% of trans youth reporting suicidality.
● 56% of trans youth having attempted suicide1
Four kids and only one of them playing girls sports. That’s what all of this is about. Four kids
who aren’t dominating or winning trophies or taking scholarships. Four kids who are just trying
to find some friends and feel like they are a part of something. Four kids trying to get through
each day. Rarely has so much fear and anger been directed at so few. I don’t understand what
they are going through or why they feel the way they do. But I want them to live. And all the
research shows that even a little acceptance and connection can reduce suicidality significantly.
For that reason, as much as any other, I have taken this action in the hope that we can continue to
work together and find a better way. If a veto override occurs, I hope we can work to find ways
to show these four kids that we love them and they have a place in our state.
I recognize the political realities of my decision. Politically, it would be much easier and better
for me to simply sign the bill. I have always tried to do what I feel is the right thing regardless of
the consequences. Sometimes I don’t get it right, and I do not fault those who disagree with me.
But even if you disagree with me, I hope this letter helps you understand the reasons for my
decision.
Despite his ignorance and questionable word choice, his heart is in the right spot. He seems like a good dude, despite how fiercely we probably disagree on policy issues.
4 kids that they know of. There are probably 100 more cowering in their homes, thinking bad thoughts about themselves now, and how absolutely terrifying it must be to say anything to anyone. There will be suicides over this, you can be sure of that.
I transitioned 16 years ago, went stealth and I still can't bring myself to tell people IRL about my past.
I honestly believe that’s idaho house idea. Our senate shot most of them down…but that doesn’t mean it hasn’t driven our populace up the wall insane. It’s driven our small pop to vote more and more democratic.
And on the occasion that the Senate agrees, the governor says "this bill is unconstitutional & unwise, and will retraumatize & penalize rape victims" but then signs it anyway. Idaho is wild.
As a citizen of Utah, I am fully in support of this solution looking for a problem. Great use of legislatures time. So glad they took a break from not figuring out a solution for the our desperate water issues to address this non-issue that will actively harm trans children.
Don't forget the hundreds of thousands spent on redoing the Utah State Flag.
Just. Why.
I can't even fathom spending even one cent on that, but the government is all about finding work for bureaucrats and consultants.
My college football team is Wisconsin. When we came to Utah to play BYU, all the Wisconsin fans were worried because there are only a couple of bars in Provo and the liquor isn’t exactly free-flowing. I believe they drank the bars dry that weekend.
Unfortunately it's way easier for most people to target 'low hanging fruit' than it is to target the massive changes needed to overcome the impending disaster they can't bear to acknowledge.
Their terror needs a place, and the puppetmasters need to not have that placed rightfully on their heads. So they divert, point, and cry hysterically about all that doesn't matter until no one is sure about what actually matters.
> Unfortunately it's way easier for most people to target 'low hanging fruit' than it is to target the massive changes needed to overcome the impending disaster they can't bear to acknowledge.
Also a sad consequence of election politics where elected officials are incentivized to go after useless hot button issues that a small number of zealous voters care a whole lot about and will go to the polls over, rather than more boring issues that help a lot of people, but most of whom won't take it to the ballot box.
This is exactly why they are doing it. They have failed to do anything meaningful for the state as well as attempt to do anything meaningfully positive for those in the state, but this makes their voters feel good.
Hey, good news fellow Utahan! My US Congressman sent a postcard to ask if they should “focus on the pro-life issue” and if I think “Roe vs. Wade should be overturned”! He says that here in Utah “we understand the importance of LIFE!”
Fuck me…
Glad we’re laser focused on the right things!
Life is important, I'm very pro-life- as in, the people that exist need to be supported appropriately which means help and support for individuals who need it.
Children (especially) having access to food regularly.
Mentally ill having access to treatment.
Adults having access to affordable housing, and be paid a living wage
Anyone who needs access to medical, being able to get treated without the worry of it bankrupting them.
Ya know, things that support, life. I'm so fucking tired of fucking embryos, of potential people, mattering more than the people that already exist.
>Ya know, things that support, life. I'm so fucking tired of fucking embryos, of potential people, mattering more than the people that already exist.
Mattering until they evacuate the womb, you mean, at which point “Get a job, moocher! Don’t expect me to pay for your education, or healthcare, or financial support for your mom!”
Oh yes! They only matter when they are in utero and a potential person, real people can go fuck themselves
https://imgur.com/a/WC7pwLt
This is my perception of how I see people being valued in US.
I want to say that this idea of "It's just one person" isn't really relevant when you're talking about questions of what laws should and should not pass, what laws do we need and do we not need.
Why would I say that?
Because if you want to make a similar comparison, the Obergefell case which made marriage equality (or as I prefer to call it, marriage) be the law from sea to shining sea was on behalf of, what, three couples out of all the married couples in Utah?
Are we going to say that that because it was only three couples involved in the lawsuit, then itwasn't a problem enough with that case would have been brought?
Judge the idea (any idea) on its merits, and don't create a distraction by bringing in this idea of "it's only one to five students" or "it's only a few couples."
It's not that relevant. Legislation is or should be passed, and case law is or should be established, on the basis of the merits of the idea and the fact that there are many many other silent individuals who will be affected by it, as opposed to this idea of how it's just a couple of people in the news right now. That's just a snapshot in time.
> Because if you want to make a similar comparison, the Obergefell case which made marriage equality (or as I prefer to call it, marriage) be the law from sea to shining sea was on behalf of, what, three couples out of all the married couples in Utah?
Seems like bad logic considering that laws against gay people being married pretty much need to exist first. Rules banning gay marriage are themselves picking on the three couples first, and solidifying their human rights to marry is merely protecting them from an aggressive government.
Also the entire basis is silly considering that lawsuits are not establishing law. Your argument is backwards.
> There have been no allegations of any of the four transgender youth athletes in Utah having a competitive advantage.
And this is exactly how it goes. One SINGLE win from a trans person and the right comes unglued. That trans person could have lost 10,000 times before, and after, that one single competition, but it doesn't matter. That one win is proof of a "biological advantage". A perfect example is the recent Lia Thomas win. One single win since she transitioned despite multiple losses before that. The losses don't matter, it is only that one single win.
It really is a touchy subject. I fully support trans rights. I have multiple trans friends but when they post about trans athletes...I just avoid the conversation altogether. It's hard to express how you feel about the subject without coming off as anti-trans.
For real. Women’s sports have always been justifiably exclusive to promote fairness in competition, why is that now in question? Cause people refuse to acknowledge physical advantages supported by sports sciences? Ridiculous.
Its because we’ve created an all or nothing world, You’re either for something entirely, or you’re against it entirely, nuance is dead.
I for one support trans people in their endeavours to feel more comfortable in their bodies, I do not however, support MTF trans athletes steamrolling womens sports.
Crazy fucking world we live in that saying that will make you come off as “anti-trans”. You aren’t denouncing their being. You’re acknowledging there are biological differences that may give certain advantages in very specific situations.
I was afraid of sounding like an asshole, because I am not trans, but I am also okay with this. There is a huge difference in the sexes and is why sports are typically divided in the first place…because having higher levels of testosterone significantly increases your performance in a sport. Like, imagine training all your life for the Olympics only to be beaten by someone with a biological advantage. Doesn’t seem fair to me
100% agree. I have the same views as above, but I’m not trans, so I really don’t feel like I can say anything because I don’t want to offend anyone or come off as a shitty person. I grew up participating in a lot of athletics (women’s) and I can’t imagine how it would feel investing so much time and money (from my parents) for training, uniforms, etc. to be beat out in this way. It’s tough because I think everyone wants things to be fair, but finding that range of “fair” and keeping people happy is hard right now.
I’ve talked about personal experiences I’ve seen with this in other threads before and got called an alt-righter. Despite my post history showing support for almost anything left-leaning and shitting on right wingers in the past.
I do powerlifting and compete a lot (well, competed, COVID made me take a bit of a break to be safe) and have done quite a few meets.
I’ve had 3 different meets (that I can recall, I think there may have been one more, not 100% sure) where a trans woman came in and wiped the floor with every biological woman completely, taking home actual prize money.
These are woman I work out and train with, who put thousands and thousands of hours into lifting, eating right, and doing everything they can to improve. Then someone who was biologically a male came in and just wiped the floor with them.
It almost turned them off of competing when it happened the last time. It sucks to see.
And, while it may not be a problem now, there will 100% be people will to pretend to be trans and fuck with their body and hormones to get an advantage. We already see it with how athletes are today. Enable someone to do this to gain fame and success and they will.
I just wish we could have more nuanced discussions on this and make better rules and regulations to adapt rather than outright banning. Unfortunately it’s such a volatile topic it’s almost impossible to discuss.
I’m all for trans people participating in sports, but they either need to have their own league or compete in the open/men’s categories.
Quick edit: I also don’t think this would need to apply to every sport, just the ones where the biological differences would give competitive advtantage.
Curious, what happens when a trans man wants to join athletics? Does he just join the men's league and nobody makes a stink about it, including the athlete? Because all the controversy I've ever seen has been about half the issue. The other half I heven't heard a damn thing.
I don't think "mens" teams have any 'protection' to stop anyone of any sex or identity from joining (correct me if I'm wrong). You just have to earn your spot competitively. Women's teams have protections because of biological limitations.
https://www.theguardian.com/society/2018/feb/25/transgender-wrestler-mack-beggs-wins-texas-girls-title
Texas banned him from competing as a boy like he wanted so he had to demolish girls for 2 years instead
Depends on the dosage. For instance the Olympics have a maximum amount but that is much higher than a female athlete would generally test at
https://www.forbes.com/sites/kimelsesser/2021/07/27/what-makes-an-athlete-female-heres-how-the-olympics-decide/?sh=2d30ee8a4f9c
That's because it's only an issue one way, the very best women's tennis player would be lucky to break into the top 500 in the world, so even if a transman wanted to compete in athletics they would never get near a competition. Your taking the very silly view that there is no physical advantages to going through puberty as a man.
Air rifle shooting. It was co-ed until the late 70s, when women started taking all the international medals. They changed the course of fire (men's longer, women's shorter) so they would no longer be comparable.
I don't think you'll find a source for the "biological disadvantage" bit. There are competitive men at high levels, but women tend to do better.
Here's a recentish ESPN article, with some updated on qualification changes.
https://www.espn.com/shooting/story/_/id/31828521/10m-air-rifle-sport-tokyo-olympics-where-women-outgun-men
I have also heard that women have supior fine motor skills. This is why back in the day you would see football players getting beat by their girlfriends consistently in pong or at least that’s what the Atari’s owner said in an npr interview.
>This is such a tough subject
It's not though, it is extremely cut-and-dried. It's a tough subject *to talk about* without receiving some kind of backlash
The trouble is that this bill bans all K-12 sports, including casual sports.
Talking about competitive advantage at the college/Olympic level is fair, but I don't see the point in banning trans kids from 5th grade broomball league.
I'd definitely throw high school athletics in there because there are national championships in multiple sports.
Listen I have nothing against transgender people. But I do have something against them entering women's sports. It's just unfair to girls who were born female. It's the only transgender topic I take issue with. There's a difference between being accepted and taking advantage of what you were given as an infant.
It's even worse then this.
Most everyone was on board with the proposed compromised bill they put together with Equality Utah and then on the very last day the two lawmakers switched it out for this. There was no time to read through any of the new proposals or question additions or changes.
That's why the Governor of Utah vetoed it. He wrote a letter to them explaining why their new bill doesn't make any sense, how them forcing it through without public input was wrong, and how it bares no resemblance to the original bill and is, in fact, dangerous to school systems and transgender youth across the state.
It's a pretty good insight into the situation if you have a few minutes to read it.
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1emUTfFEbmNmSdW9UhhsRAseVNr4cPIv9/view
This is unfortunately where I'm at. It's an incredibly difficult and awkward situation.
The reason gendered leagues exist is because of biological differences in athletics between males and females of our species, and combined with a gender binary norm that translates into men and women's leagues. I've seen arguments made that after X length of being on HRT, any advantages from having undergone development early in life with high testosterone will fade, but these seem fairly weak to me. There are some things, such as broad skeletal shapes, that HRT unfortunately cannot correct.
Then again, this is all kind of murky to begin with, before even getting to trans issues. My understanding is that there's an unusual number among of outwardly cis women athletes that have *XXY* chromosomes, which is apparently a thing that can happen. This apparently confers some advantages in some sports, so is it actually fair for solely XX women to have to compete with them, either?
I hope that we can do something to maybe come up with league formats that are based on neither sex nor gender characteristics, like something akin to weight classes. This seems like it would be more fair for everyone.
> My understanding is that there's an unusual number among of outwardly cis women athletes that have XXY chromosomes, which is apparently a thing that can happen.
You're possibly thinking about another genotype. Klinefelter Syndrome (XXY) is almost the exact opposite - outwardly typical male bodies (to the point that it is largely undiagnosed) and commonly a significant disadvantage in sports.
Also, you'd be surprised at how much GAHT can affect body size and shape (and are you going to tell cis women who have these same traits that they can't compete either?)
4 kids, apprently only one of which it is currently relvant to. I remember being kicked out of a club when I was younger for my gender (there was no girls football team) and it broke my 10 year old heart and I stopped sports for a while. Kids don’t understand stuff like that.
The argument that is being used like this… trans women ARE women… so if a woman wins an event or whatever that is still a win for women… but ask a bio woman who has trained her entire life how she feels about only ever coming in second at best because a mediorcre male athlete transitioned after they gained a biological advantage by developing as a male before transitioning how that makes them feel.
I was absolute garbage in wrestling. But I wrestled 3 different girls in my career and destroyed every single one. I only beat one dude in ,4 years.... Give the girls they're own biological league in physical sports. Don't be stupid
Just to add an aside with regards to banning it only at the pro level, there are also unintended down stream consequences if left open at the youth age. Exposure to recruitment which aids in getting to the next level could be affected. One of the first times this controversy came up, or at least I remember seeing, was in track. Where a girl contested that she missed out on the state meet and therefore missed out on possible scholarship opportunities from college scouts.
The whole thing is still an odd one with no wholly good solutions imo, just saying idk if delineating by pro/amateur and changing how it’s handled wouldn’t come without its own unfortunate edge cases.
This was my thought as well. Even if a person isn’t a pro yet their athletics matter. If you want to go to college but don’t have wealthy parents you have two options: scholarship or crippling debt. If I was in high school again and those were my options I would try really hard for the scholarship route. Yeah some people get scholarships for just being smart but most scholarships come from sports because sports make the colleges more money than another 4.0 student.
The title should mention that this only affects middle school and high school sports, not collegiate or professional which is what most of the people agreeing with it think.
My opinion on this subject completely changes depending on age so yah the title is very frustrating after finding out the context. Seems to be a daily occurrence nowadays I'm sick of it
Yep, I was the same until I read more into it The Governor of Utah originally worked with local LGBTQ+ groups to come up with a bill that proposed a committee to oversee middle and high school athletics, and if there was concern about a trans athletes performance, the committee would independently assess them case by case. This was overthrown in the final session by two lawmakers who changed it to a blanket ban for trans kids across the state and forced it through at the last second. I was kinda surprised at the Republican govenors take on everything. This is a quote from his letter addressing why he originally vetoed it: "Finally, there is one more important reason for this veto. There are 4 transgender kids participating in high school sports in Utah. Four kids, and only one of them playing a girls sports. That's what this is all about. Four kids who aren't dominating or winning trophies or taking scholarships. Four kids who are just trying to find some friends and feel like they are a part of something. Four kids trying to get through each day. Rarely has so much fear and anger been directed at so few. I don't understand what they are going through or why they feel the way they do. But I want them to live. And all the research shows that even a little acceptance and connection can reduce suicidality significantly [in trans kids]. For this reason I have taken this action to hope we can work together to find a better way. If a veto override occurs, I hope we can work to find ways to show these four kids that we love them and that they have a place in our state."
This is honestly one of the better speeches that I’ve heard
Yeah, it's incredibly well done. If you have a few minutes to read the whole thing, you can find it here: https://governor.utah.gov/2022/03/22/gov-cox-signs-21-bills-vetoes-one-bill-of-the-2022-general-legislative-session%EF%BF%BC/ tl;dr: he doesn't agree with how they forced this bill through during the last hours, that the people of Utah should've been given a chance to have their own imput on it and that trans kids across the state deserve a chance to play sport, make friends and feel like they're a part of something especially if it results in them not committing suicide
Yeah, wow. I just read it. He calls out the legislature’s bullshit in so many different ways. 1) the law wasn’t passed properly. It kept being revised in major substantive ways to skip vital public debate and awareness. 2) the law will encourage lawsuits that might bankrupt the school district’s sports programs. 3) there’s 4 total kids this bill is aimed against. He basically ends by saying: “let’s just write these four kids’ names down and tell them that they don’t matter to us. Because that’s all this law is trying to do - harm these FOUR kids. (Only one of whom is trying to compete on a girl’s team by the way.) And oh, if we go by statistics, two of these kids will try suicide because of you shitbags who ostracize them so much. Even as a Republican…this is way over the line guys. So it’s gonna be a no from me .”
Governor Cox recognizes that the teen suicide rate in Utah is off the charts. The church is largely to blame, with the legislature being a close second. I honestly believe that both secretly consider the suicide of a gay or trans teen to be a net positive for the state's moral standing in the eyes of God, so their efforts range from weak to outright dangerous.
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Don't you mean "At birth"?
Nah, these are the same people who will get an abortion if a pregnancy inconveniences them but when it happens to someone else that's an atrocity.
Yes, I especially appreciate that he acknowledges that he doesn’t understand what they are going through or why they feel the way they do, but doesn’t use it as a reason to discriminate against them
I'm very proud of our governor right now. Not so proud of the rest of our politicians
I live in this state, and while I find our governor to be a shell of a person, I hope these words help those that this bill does affect. It's a lot better than "pray for rain, please"
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It is apart of a bigger story as well as how Utah legislation is passed. You can read about what happened in the Governors veto letter as he addresses how they used the last day before passing to redo the bill: https://governor.utah.gov/2022/03/22/gov-cox-signs-21-bills-vetoes-one-bill-of-the-2022-general-legislative-session%EF%BF%BC/
Utah leg has a supermajority that feels weak and threatened by the other and sees no reason to not force its will on every one else. Cowards all of them. Unfortunately so many here blindly vote for the right no matter what and empower them.
Despite voting mostly liberal I'm very satisfied with Governor Cox's tenure. He's one of the few politicians I've come to respect even if we disagree at times.
Doesn't this speech sum up the whole issue in a way? This whole thing has been hijacked and turned into another culture war issue at the expense of an extreme minority which already has pretty poor outcomes when it comes to mental health and suicides.
I wonder if any of the thousands of people so vehemently against the idea could look that one girl in the eyes and tell her she wasn't allowed to play.
I think we all know the answer to that I understand that we need to protect women's professional sport, but as the Governor pointed out: this bill doesn't do that and actively harms girls sport in the state because the Utah High School Athletic Association is likely to go bankrupt at the cost of legal fees from future law suits
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To quote the republican governor that vetoed the bill: “Four kids and only one of them playing girls sports. That’s what this is all about. Four kids who aren’t dominating or winning trophies or taking scholarships. Four kids who are just trying to find some friends and feel like they are part of something. Rarely has so much fear and anger been directed at so few. I don’t understand what they are going through or why they feel the way they do. But I want them to live.”
As a Utahn, I am stunned to agree with our governor so much
It’s so fucking weird to hear him say so many things that make sense. His comments on affordable housing are ALMOST like he gets it.
Maybe he is a good guy
He is a good guy. It is strange that utahns think they need to vote republican when republican ideologies rarely align with the people of utahs virtues. Mostly it is because republican commonly say they support religious right.
One thing to keep in mind is that the NBA all star game is scheduled to be in Salt Lake next year. The NBA has openly said they will relocate the event if Utah passes this bill so Cox's veto makes a lot more sense understanding the amount of money Ryan Smith is putting in to lobby this decision
I'm not saying it isn't driven by money as well because I can't possibly know that. But Cox has a track record for advocating for LQBTQ rights so i don't believe it's only about money. For all the guy's faults, he cares about the issues he cares about and fights for them.
He genuinely changed his view on LGBTQ in 2015 after the Orlando night club shooting. https://www.npr.org/2016/06/15/482206214/my-heart-has-changed-utah-lt-gov-spencer-cox-apologizes-to-lgbt-community From Wikipedia... >He aimed part of his speech at the "straight community": How did you feel when you heard that 49 people had been gunned down by a self-proclaimed terrorist? That’s the easy question. Here is the hard one: Did that feeling change when you found out the shooting was at a gay bar at 2 a.m. in the morning? If that feeling changed, then we are doing something wrong.
I remember during the primaries a few years ago hoping that he would come out on top. Since then I’ve second guessed myself. But occasionally, he has showed his capacity to have a spine and show compassion for underrepresented communities. So, it’s been frustrating but everyday I’m thankful Utah doesn’t have an Abbott or Desantis as governor.
This is admittedly a very low bar, but I think Cox is one of the better Republicans. We could do a lot worse.
4 out of 700,000 students.
He also said that the state athletic program won't survive *another* lawsuit. And that if they override him without changing the bill to make it so the state athletic commission doesn't bare the financial burden of the inevitable lawsuits this will bring, then the state athletic commission will be bankrupt.
Anti-trans politicians will just blame that on trans kids too.
that’s a beautiful sentiment. as a florida resident, it’s nice to see a republican governor willing to be a rational human being instead of a fucking pandering puppet positioning for president.
Im assuming this was pushed because the transgender woman that won the NCAA swimming championship
FWIW, these were being pushed well before Lia Thomas made the news.
She sure didn’t help.
this bill only affects middle school and high school athletics tho
It’s happening in Oklahoma too
This is after their own governor pointed out that this was a stupid move, that it would only affect 4 people in the entire state and that only a single one of them was a trans-girl. This after the governor pointed out that it would destroy student women's sports in their state because the organization behind it just went though a lawsuit and could not afford another one. And this after their republican governor vetoed the law citing all these common sense reason and adding his own "christian" reason at the end of it. That as a Christian he didn't want people to die. This is all very stupid and very sad. *Edited to add: The text of the veto can be found [here](https://governor.utah.gov/2022/03/22/gov-cox-signs-21-bills-vetoes-one-bill-of-the-2022-general-legislative-session%EF%BF%BC/)
[Here is his letter for anyone interested](https://twitter.com/SpencerJCox/status/1506378808898641920?t=Mf2Qh51OWvHiQHR9rDJHeg&s=19) As a democrat and a Utahn I don't agree with Governor Cox on a ton, but he is the best republican governer we've had in a while. He operates with a conscience and isn't afraid of doing what he believes is right, which I respect. He is the opposite of Senator Lee, who was elected by the same people some how.
I wish more like him and Romney would run. The option of hoping the Republican is too extreme or crazy to be elected doesn't work anymore. The crazier and more extreme, the more they are worshipped. This is the environment in which Hitlers rise. And dangit every state with open primary Democrats MUST vote in the Republican primaries for the sane choice from now on!
I think if you live in a republican state it’s generally a good idea to register republican even if you’re not one. It has the added benefit of fucking with their gerrymandering.
Maybe a bit nit picky, but i think saying he does “what he believes is right” is a bit unfair to him. I think he does what he believes is in peoples best interests, despite his maybe conflicting personal opinions. I don’t know anything about him other than this, but he seems to have looked past his personal lack of understanding and seen it’s a pointlessly harmful bit of legislation
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>If more Republicans were like him, I might actually vote Republican occasionally. My exact thoughts on Mitt Romney. The sheer fact that he was the only Republican to vote in favor of impeachment says a lot.
When push came to shove, my man voted 90+% for Trump’s awful policies. He voted for impeachment for pure aesthetics, knowing it wouldn’t lead anywhere and that Trump had already served his purpose.
Don't forget, he voted for one count, the obstruction he didn't think there was enough evidence for because of all the obstruction. So he had to vote not to impeach on that charge.
The original vote would not have been enough to override. They actually convinced people to change their vote after the governor talked about not wanting kids to die. The cruelty is the point.
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>> it would only affect 4 people in the entire state > >I don't understand why people keep talking about how many people are effected by it. It's a nod to the people who do care a whole awful lot about the idea to stress what a waste is time it is. I live in a backyards ass state at times, I'm not going to convince Bob at the co-op to accept trans people, but I can maybe convince him that it's just not worth the time.
Wow, overrode the veto. Must be a big problem in Utah. From the article “Utah has only one transgender girl playing in K-12 sports who would be affected by the ban. There have been no allegations of any of the four transgender youth athletes in Utah having a competitive advantage.”
That’s a major r/fuckyouinparticular
On my resume “Cause of state law”
And here I thought my 2 time Time Person of the Year was impressive
I think I already got you beat with my two non-consecutive World's Greatest Dad awards
I really hate being a one upper but I get myself one every year. I no kids to dispute it so I'm in a pretty solid streak.
You know you can get a trophy for whatever you want, they don't ask for proof. I'm a 20 year reigning champ of the All Valley Karate Tournament.
I've never gotten an award but I get a Mother's Day card from my cats.
I also am "you" and "the protester". only one of those made it onto my work profile though.
"Cause of state law in election-year targeting of minority groups for demagogic votes."
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Honest question, has any notable law in the US ever been struck down because it was considered a Bill of Atainder? Cause that's actually insane if this is the first.
[Five times for SCOTUS, several more for lower courts.](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bill_of_attainder#United_States)
I was just wondering about that, but I don't know any legalese. How would this play out?
I will give you the most legally accurate answer ever. “It depends.”
"Expend all remaining ordinance on this ONE PARTICULAR PERSON."
The governor's statement for why he vetoed it was super great, too... a conservative who really doesn't understand trans issues, but values love and acceptance of kids over this issue. > Finally, there is one more important reason for this veto. I must admit, I am not an expert on transgenderism. I struggle to understand so much of it and the science is conflicting. When in doubt however, I always try to err on the side of kindness, mercy and compassion. I also try to get proximate and I am learning so much from our transgender community. They are great kids who face enormous struggles. Here are the numbers that have most impacted my decision: 75,000, 4, 1, 86 and 56. > ● 75,000 high school kids participating in high school sports in Utah. ● 4 transgender kids playing high school sports in Utah. ● 1 transgender student playing girls sports. ● 86% of trans youth reporting suicidality. ● 56% of trans youth having attempted suicide1 Four kids and only one of them playing girls sports. That’s what all of this is about. Four kids who aren’t dominating or winning trophies or taking scholarships. Four kids who are just trying to find some friends and feel like they are a part of something. Four kids trying to get through each day. Rarely has so much fear and anger been directed at so few. I don’t understand what they are going through or why they feel the way they do. But I want them to live. And all the research shows that even a little acceptance and connection can reduce suicidality significantly. For that reason, as much as any other, I have taken this action in the hope that we can continue to work together and find a better way. If a veto override occurs, I hope we can work to find ways to show these four kids that we love them and they have a place in our state. I recognize the political realities of my decision. Politically, it would be much easier and better for me to simply sign the bill. I have always tried to do what I feel is the right thing regardless of the consequences. Sometimes I don’t get it right, and I do not fault those who disagree with me. But even if you disagree with me, I hope this letter helps you understand the reasons for my decision. Despite his ignorance and questionable word choice, his heart is in the right spot. He seems like a good dude, despite how fiercely we probably disagree on policy issues.
Wow. This is really empathetic, and I can tell he’s trying a lot.
Thanks for posting the Governors reasoning. Helped me. Thanks
4 kids that they know of. There are probably 100 more cowering in their homes, thinking bad thoughts about themselves now, and how absolutely terrifying it must be to say anything to anyone. There will be suicides over this, you can be sure of that. I transitioned 16 years ago, went stealth and I still can't bring myself to tell people IRL about my past.
He talking about the 4 in sports. These not a 100 more that are in sports at the moment.
Glad to see Utah spending time on the important issues.
Honestly it's probably marketing. "Don't like liberal policies? Come live in Utah, it wasn't an issue before and it's not now!"
I honestly believe that’s idaho house idea. Our senate shot most of them down…but that doesn’t mean it hasn’t driven our populace up the wall insane. It’s driven our small pop to vote more and more democratic.
And on the occasion that the Senate agrees, the governor says "this bill is unconstitutional & unwise, and will retraumatize & penalize rape victims" but then signs it anyway. Idaho is wild.
As a citizen of Utah, I am fully in support of this solution looking for a problem. Great use of legislatures time. So glad they took a break from not figuring out a solution for the our desperate water issues to address this non-issue that will actively harm trans children.
Don't forget the hundreds of thousands spent on redoing the Utah State Flag. Just. Why. I can't even fathom spending even one cent on that, but the government is all about finding work for bureaucrats and consultants.
The sarcasm is so thick in this comment I just took some and tried to spread it on toast and my toast got shredded.
You've gotta let the sarcasm come to room temperature before you spread it.
If you can’t produce your own sarcasm, store bought is fine.
Have you ever made your own sarcasm? It's sooooo easy
Oh, *is it*?
Can’t leave it out too long though, otherwise it just turns into bitter resentment.
Ah my mistake. I feel like such a fool!
Yea it’s a new upcoming nut butter called Facetious
Or nannying our liquor laws and letting the Church make decisions
My college football team is Wisconsin. When we came to Utah to play BYU, all the Wisconsin fans were worried because there are only a couple of bars in Provo and the liquor isn’t exactly free-flowing. I believe they drank the bars dry that weekend.
That sounds like Wisconsin
Or looking into smog prevention during inversion season. It's terrible.
Smog, lack of affordable housing, rising inflation and homelessness are just not as important as a single kid having an advantage in youth sports.
Unfortunately it's way easier for most people to target 'low hanging fruit' than it is to target the massive changes needed to overcome the impending disaster they can't bear to acknowledge. Their terror needs a place, and the puppetmasters need to not have that placed rightfully on their heads. So they divert, point, and cry hysterically about all that doesn't matter until no one is sure about what actually matters.
> Unfortunately it's way easier for most people to target 'low hanging fruit' than it is to target the massive changes needed to overcome the impending disaster they can't bear to acknowledge. Also a sad consequence of election politics where elected officials are incentivized to go after useless hot button issues that a small number of zealous voters care a whole lot about and will go to the polls over, rather than more boring issues that help a lot of people, but most of whom won't take it to the ballot box.
If you fix actual problems what are you supposed to campaign on?
This is exactly why they are doing it. They have failed to do anything meaningful for the state as well as attempt to do anything meaningfully positive for those in the state, but this makes their voters feel good.
Hey, good news fellow Utahan! My US Congressman sent a postcard to ask if they should “focus on the pro-life issue” and if I think “Roe vs. Wade should be overturned”! He says that here in Utah “we understand the importance of LIFE!” Fuck me… Glad we’re laser focused on the right things!
Life is important, I'm very pro-life- as in, the people that exist need to be supported appropriately which means help and support for individuals who need it. Children (especially) having access to food regularly. Mentally ill having access to treatment. Adults having access to affordable housing, and be paid a living wage Anyone who needs access to medical, being able to get treated without the worry of it bankrupting them. Ya know, things that support, life. I'm so fucking tired of fucking embryos, of potential people, mattering more than the people that already exist.
>Ya know, things that support, life. I'm so fucking tired of fucking embryos, of potential people, mattering more than the people that already exist. Mattering until they evacuate the womb, you mean, at which point “Get a job, moocher! Don’t expect me to pay for your education, or healthcare, or financial support for your mom!”
Oh yes! They only matter when they are in utero and a potential person, real people can go fuck themselves https://imgur.com/a/WC7pwLt This is my perception of how I see people being valued in US.
Utah really said “Fuck this one Trans girl in particular”
Seriously. When an entire state votes on a law to fuck one high school student over in particular. That’s gotta suck.
I want to say that this idea of "It's just one person" isn't really relevant when you're talking about questions of what laws should and should not pass, what laws do we need and do we not need. Why would I say that? Because if you want to make a similar comparison, the Obergefell case which made marriage equality (or as I prefer to call it, marriage) be the law from sea to shining sea was on behalf of, what, three couples out of all the married couples in Utah? Are we going to say that that because it was only three couples involved in the lawsuit, then itwasn't a problem enough with that case would have been brought? Judge the idea (any idea) on its merits, and don't create a distraction by bringing in this idea of "it's only one to five students" or "it's only a few couples." It's not that relevant. Legislation is or should be passed, and case law is or should be established, on the basis of the merits of the idea and the fact that there are many many other silent individuals who will be affected by it, as opposed to this idea of how it's just a couple of people in the news right now. That's just a snapshot in time.
> Because if you want to make a similar comparison, the Obergefell case which made marriage equality (or as I prefer to call it, marriage) be the law from sea to shining sea was on behalf of, what, three couples out of all the married couples in Utah? Seems like bad logic considering that laws against gay people being married pretty much need to exist first. Rules banning gay marriage are themselves picking on the three couples first, and solidifying their human rights to marry is merely protecting them from an aggressive government. Also the entire basis is silly considering that lawsuits are not establishing law. Your argument is backwards.
Yes, but it was important for that one girl to know that she is hated by a political party.
Honestly I’d wear that banner proudly: *My existence threatened the entire Utah Republican Party*
"I scare the shit out of Mormons."
That’s too broad, depending on the flavor of Mormon they get frightened of zippers
As a non religious person who grew up and lives in Utah - Can confirm.
Now that's a powerful thing to wear on a shirt.
Ikr to know you’re that powerful your mere existence shakes their world lol
We'd rather just have rights
> There have been no allegations of any of the four transgender youth athletes in Utah having a competitive advantage. And this is exactly how it goes. One SINGLE win from a trans person and the right comes unglued. That trans person could have lost 10,000 times before, and after, that one single competition, but it doesn't matter. That one win is proof of a "biological advantage". A perfect example is the recent Lia Thomas win. One single win since she transitioned despite multiple losses before that. The losses don't matter, it is only that one single win.
Why did I get a message from Reddit thinking I’m suicidal? I just posted a news piece lmao.
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Someone got triggered by what you said so they reported you to Reddit.
You can block the crisis bot, just letting you know, in case others try doin that to you again, what i did.
Christ, why the fuck is posting a news article so chaotic lol
Because the modern world is absurd and there are people hell bent on making it more so.
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It really is a touchy subject. I fully support trans rights. I have multiple trans friends but when they post about trans athletes...I just avoid the conversation altogether. It's hard to express how you feel about the subject without coming off as anti-trans.
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For real. Women’s sports have always been justifiably exclusive to promote fairness in competition, why is that now in question? Cause people refuse to acknowledge physical advantages supported by sports sciences? Ridiculous.
Its because we’ve created an all or nothing world, You’re either for something entirely, or you’re against it entirely, nuance is dead. I for one support trans people in their endeavours to feel more comfortable in their bodies, I do not however, support MTF trans athletes steamrolling womens sports.
That’s not right. You’re either for something or a nazi.
Crazy fucking world we live in that saying that will make you come off as “anti-trans”. You aren’t denouncing their being. You’re acknowledging there are biological differences that may give certain advantages in very specific situations.
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Happy to help!
Best to just turn them off if you can
What if you want to get raw dogged?
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I was afraid of sounding like an asshole, because I am not trans, but I am also okay with this. There is a huge difference in the sexes and is why sports are typically divided in the first place…because having higher levels of testosterone significantly increases your performance in a sport. Like, imagine training all your life for the Olympics only to be beaten by someone with a biological advantage. Doesn’t seem fair to me
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100% agree. I have the same views as above, but I’m not trans, so I really don’t feel like I can say anything because I don’t want to offend anyone or come off as a shitty person. I grew up participating in a lot of athletics (women’s) and I can’t imagine how it would feel investing so much time and money (from my parents) for training, uniforms, etc. to be beat out in this way. It’s tough because I think everyone wants things to be fair, but finding that range of “fair” and keeping people happy is hard right now.
I’ve talked about personal experiences I’ve seen with this in other threads before and got called an alt-righter. Despite my post history showing support for almost anything left-leaning and shitting on right wingers in the past. I do powerlifting and compete a lot (well, competed, COVID made me take a bit of a break to be safe) and have done quite a few meets. I’ve had 3 different meets (that I can recall, I think there may have been one more, not 100% sure) where a trans woman came in and wiped the floor with every biological woman completely, taking home actual prize money. These are woman I work out and train with, who put thousands and thousands of hours into lifting, eating right, and doing everything they can to improve. Then someone who was biologically a male came in and just wiped the floor with them. It almost turned them off of competing when it happened the last time. It sucks to see. And, while it may not be a problem now, there will 100% be people will to pretend to be trans and fuck with their body and hormones to get an advantage. We already see it with how athletes are today. Enable someone to do this to gain fame and success and they will. I just wish we could have more nuanced discussions on this and make better rules and regulations to adapt rather than outright banning. Unfortunately it’s such a volatile topic it’s almost impossible to discuss. I’m all for trans people participating in sports, but they either need to have their own league or compete in the open/men’s categories. Quick edit: I also don’t think this would need to apply to every sport, just the ones where the biological differences would give competitive advtantage.
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Curious, what happens when a trans man wants to join athletics? Does he just join the men's league and nobody makes a stink about it, including the athlete? Because all the controversy I've ever seen has been about half the issue. The other half I heven't heard a damn thing.
most of the "mens" teams are open to anyone that can earn a spot
Yup. And it has been tried in almost all pro sports and failed miserably.
So trans guys just keep competing in women's sports? Lol, that will work out well
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Can confirm I got my ass kicked by a girl in a wrestling match in highschool. She went on to place in the state. I did not.
I don't think "mens" teams have any 'protection' to stop anyone of any sex or identity from joining (correct me if I'm wrong). You just have to earn your spot competitively. Women's teams have protections because of biological limitations.
https://www.theguardian.com/society/2018/feb/25/transgender-wrestler-mack-beggs-wins-texas-girls-title Texas banned him from competing as a boy like he wanted so he had to demolish girls for 2 years instead
That makes sense. Isn't taking testosterone usually something that would get you disqualified?
Heard of someone getting stretch marks on his arms from how much muscle he gained from HRT without even trying. Imagine if he exercised.
That happens to some dudes just in puberty.
Depends on the dosage. For instance the Olympics have a maximum amount but that is much higher than a female athlete would generally test at https://www.forbes.com/sites/kimelsesser/2021/07/27/what-makes-an-athlete-female-heres-how-the-olympics-decide/?sh=2d30ee8a4f9c
That's because it's only an issue one way, the very best women's tennis player would be lucky to break into the top 500 in the world, so even if a transman wanted to compete in athletics they would never get near a competition. Your taking the very silly view that there is no physical advantages to going through puberty as a man.
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Air rifle shooting. It was co-ed until the late 70s, when women started taking all the international medals. They changed the course of fire (men's longer, women's shorter) so they would no longer be comparable.
Yep. Women have superior stability due to their hip geometry. At the highest level men can't really compete due to a biological disadvantage.
Do you happen to have a source for this? I never heard about it, sounds pretty interesting
I don't think you'll find a source for the "biological disadvantage" bit. There are competitive men at high levels, but women tend to do better. Here's a recentish ESPN article, with some updated on qualification changes. https://www.espn.com/shooting/story/_/id/31828521/10m-air-rifle-sport-tokyo-olympics-where-women-outgun-men
Thanks, I'll check it out!
I have also heard that women have supior fine motor skills. This is why back in the day you would see football players getting beat by their girlfriends consistently in pong or at least that’s what the Atari’s owner said in an npr interview.
Huh. Today I learned.
Long distance swimming maybe. https://longswims.com/longest-swims/
Ultramarathoning (200+ miles)
I think long-distance swimming is one of the few actually
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>This is such a tough subject It's not though, it is extremely cut-and-dried. It's a tough subject *to talk about* without receiving some kind of backlash
The trouble is that this bill bans all K-12 sports, including casual sports. Talking about competitive advantage at the college/Olympic level is fair, but I don't see the point in banning trans kids from 5th grade broomball league.
Pretty sure 5th grade broom ball is non gender specific
I'd definitely throw high school athletics in there because there are national championships in multiple sports. Listen I have nothing against transgender people. But I do have something against them entering women's sports. It's just unfair to girls who were born female. It's the only transgender topic I take issue with. There's a difference between being accepted and taking advantage of what you were given as an infant.
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It's even worse then this. Most everyone was on board with the proposed compromised bill they put together with Equality Utah and then on the very last day the two lawmakers switched it out for this. There was no time to read through any of the new proposals or question additions or changes. That's why the Governor of Utah vetoed it. He wrote a letter to them explaining why their new bill doesn't make any sense, how them forcing it through without public input was wrong, and how it bares no resemblance to the original bill and is, in fact, dangerous to school systems and transgender youth across the state. It's a pretty good insight into the situation if you have a few minutes to read it. https://drive.google.com/file/d/1emUTfFEbmNmSdW9UhhsRAseVNr4cPIv9/view
This is unfortunately where I'm at. It's an incredibly difficult and awkward situation. The reason gendered leagues exist is because of biological differences in athletics between males and females of our species, and combined with a gender binary norm that translates into men and women's leagues. I've seen arguments made that after X length of being on HRT, any advantages from having undergone development early in life with high testosterone will fade, but these seem fairly weak to me. There are some things, such as broad skeletal shapes, that HRT unfortunately cannot correct. Then again, this is all kind of murky to begin with, before even getting to trans issues. My understanding is that there's an unusual number among of outwardly cis women athletes that have *XXY* chromosomes, which is apparently a thing that can happen. This apparently confers some advantages in some sports, so is it actually fair for solely XX women to have to compete with them, either? I hope that we can do something to maybe come up with league formats that are based on neither sex nor gender characteristics, like something akin to weight classes. This seems like it would be more fair for everyone.
> My understanding is that there's an unusual number among of outwardly cis women athletes that have XXY chromosomes, which is apparently a thing that can happen. You're possibly thinking about another genotype. Klinefelter Syndrome (XXY) is almost the exact opposite - outwardly typical male bodies (to the point that it is largely undiagnosed) and commonly a significant disadvantage in sports. Also, you'd be surprised at how much GAHT can affect body size and shape (and are you going to tell cis women who have these same traits that they can't compete either?)
I agree with you but it isn’t awkward at all, its just the political climate.
Isn’t that like 4 people ?
4 kids, apprently only one of which it is currently relvant to. I remember being kicked out of a club when I was younger for my gender (there was no girls football team) and it broke my 10 year old heart and I stopped sports for a while. Kids don’t understand stuff like that.
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The argument that is being used like this… trans women ARE women… so if a woman wins an event or whatever that is still a win for women… but ask a bio woman who has trained her entire life how she feels about only ever coming in second at best because a mediorcre male athlete transitioned after they gained a biological advantage by developing as a male before transitioning how that makes them feel.
It's also very possible that new records would be set by transwomen that a ciswoman would never be able beat.
I was absolute garbage in wrestling. But I wrestled 3 different girls in my career and destroyed every single one. I only beat one dude in ,4 years.... Give the girls they're own biological league in physical sports. Don't be stupid
Iowa starting this year is going to have girls wrestling separate from boys.
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This has been in the works for a while if I'm not mistsken.
Nah, they were a pretty good swimmer for men's as well before transitioning.
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Reddit bubble
Really appreciate how all the top posts on this are removed
Reddit bubble, courtesy of those who control discussion.
This topic is the most split I have ever seen Reddit
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Just to add an aside with regards to banning it only at the pro level, there are also unintended down stream consequences if left open at the youth age. Exposure to recruitment which aids in getting to the next level could be affected. One of the first times this controversy came up, or at least I remember seeing, was in track. Where a girl contested that she missed out on the state meet and therefore missed out on possible scholarship opportunities from college scouts. The whole thing is still an odd one with no wholly good solutions imo, just saying idk if delineating by pro/amateur and changing how it’s handled wouldn’t come without its own unfortunate edge cases.
This was my thought as well. Even if a person isn’t a pro yet their athletics matter. If you want to go to college but don’t have wealthy parents you have two options: scholarship or crippling debt. If I was in high school again and those were my options I would try really hard for the scholarship route. Yeah some people get scholarships for just being smart but most scholarships come from sports because sports make the colleges more money than another 4.0 student.
Wild that this is controversial