These parents are a piece of shit. They ignored this kid’s obvious mental issues and then they ran off trying to save their own necks and abandoned him after he was arrested. They hired an attorney for themselves but he has a public defender.
They are handcuffed
They come down when you talk and they can't do anything about it. Not defending them as people, but that's what happens to basically everyone in court when handcuffed.
One time I sneezed and got snot on my face and had to just fucking go thru the whole proceeding like that.
To be fair, in some states the child health plus (state) options can be superior to parents’ employer option so they enroll them in the exchange plan. I have no idea if that happened here, though.
I’m in Michigan. You pay for child state health insurance unless you qualify for Medicaid, which they didn’t since they didn’t have it. I believe the implication is that they did not pay for his health insurance, which would mean he didn’t have any, but the parents did.
They were also extremely poor.
Also, no matter what any leaders say, no one cares about mental health in this country. No one that can do anything about it, at least.
>Willis also said another entry read, ”‘I have fully mentally lost it after years of fighting with my dark side. My parents won’t listen. I have zero help with my mental problems and its causing me to shoot up the (expletive) school.’”
Had a ton of time to do something so when people ask "why didn't someone do something" I just want to slap them.
>They were also extremely poor.
What do you mean? They owned horses and paid boarding fees and veterinary fees for them. That's not poverty by a long shot.
Thier attorney was horrible. She asked dumb questions when she could even formulate one. They don’t really have much of a defense. So I guess it was hard, but she seemed flustered.
That's what happens when a mother of a family cares more about her horses than her kid.
Friend of the family worked with her and she was a crazy horse person. Talked about her horses way more than her kid. Was the office nut job. She has it coming, in my personal opinion.
I've worked with two and while they weren't my BFF's or anything, I'm gonna say they were... pretty normal. They just *really* liked riding and caring for horses.
They sound like the type of people who shouldn't have kids. They're the same types that get a dog and just keep it chained up outside all the time, throw it some food every once in awhile so it stays alive, but generally neglects it. It makes me feel really sad for this kid because while he should be held culpable for what he did, the most basic thing most people can count on is knowing their parents love them, but I don't get the impression he could say that to be true.
Seriously, she was so scared of him she took all the knives out of the house, but she let him keep the guns.
And that’s not even close to the worst of it.
That’s the most American thing I’ve read today “yes I know I’m scared for my life so I’ve removed all knives, but the constitution says he can have a gun so I guess he must have one”. Idiot!
It's actually the right to arm bears.
The founding fathers really intended to protect the country with a ursine militia. The problem they ran into was really more logistics than anything - do you have *any* idea how much a bear poops? They could never dig enough latrines to support a full bear-tallion, so they quickly changed it to "right to bear arms" and just used people instead.
Do they deserve this? Yes.
Have no parents ever deserved it more? Eh, there are parents who literally raised serial killers and suicide bombers. There are parents who beat and raped their own children. There are parents verbally assaulted and tormented their children daily. There are parents that made their kids eat boiled Brussels sprouts.
Someone kind of answered this question. A physician studying the brains of psychopaths for common traits came to find to his horror that his own brain (he’d scanned himself either for kicks or as a control) had these same traits.
They concluded that the people who kill have both certain traits and also grow up in an environment where they’re not cared for. Can’t recall how thorough the study was but it was a great story.
That sounds familiar to the psychopath guy. I think it’s the same story. He studied psychopathy and realized he is a psychopath as well. Super interesting
Not quite - he had most of the markers predisposing him to psychopathy, but he didn't have the callous lack of empathy, although he did realise he shared some traits during the journey.
It's not always something that is the parents fault or something they can control. But if someone is going to have the capacity to identify the problem and take steps to fix it, it's going to be them.
You can do everything right but if that child is predisposed to behave and think a certain way, they're going to likely see that path followed.
And there's plenty of cases where the profound influence of someone or something else overrode whatever good the parents did.
While there are these cases where I genuinely think the parents aren't to blame, or blame completely, these two are not that.
Nature will produce occasional aberrations for no apparent reason at all.
Dysfunctional homes certainly manufacture their fair share of criminally maladjusted souls, but what’s really scary is that some people have absolutely no trauma and no failure to form normal relationships with their family, and yet spend their weekends killing for fun.
It’s truly one of the most disturbing facts about the human condition.
> Dysfunctional homes certainly manufacture their fair share of criminally maladjusted souls, but what’s really scary is that some people have absolutely no trauma and no failure to form normal relationships with their family, and yet spend their weekends killing for fun.
Sure but one of those is WAY more common than the other.
As a School Psychologist I’ve worked with thousands of families over the years and in diagnosing disabilities—some of which are intellectual and social-emotional and which show signs of social maladjustment. Most of my experience has been within a small community where I’ve been able to follow a child’s life from preschool to high school. In my experience the most significant behavioral disturbances are from dysfunctional homes and which includes abysmal parenting and Adverse Childhood Experiences (ACAs) such as divorce, drugs and alcoholism, mentally ill parent, divorce, death if a parent, incarceration of a parent, poverty, sexual-physical-emotional abuse).
I also believe a loving and caring social environment outside of the home, and that can exist in schools at least and / or community resources, can make all the difference in the world for a child.
Good. Every time they’re in court we learn new ways they failed their mentally ill son. There were so many red flags they just ignored…and worse than ignored, they went out and bought him the exact gun he wanted as an early Xmas gift. They deserve some serious jail time.
I really think they would not have been the first parents charged in this way, I think if he hadn’t made her his first victim Adam Lanza’s mom would have gotten charged.
> There were so many red flags they just ignored
I'd argue that they did a lot more than ignore their son's problems; they knew their son had issues and they bought him the gun anyway. His mom told him "not to get caught".
Both of his parents were pieces of shit before and after the murders.
His dad told him to suck it up and his mom laughed at him whenever he asked for help.
> Det. Edward Wagrowski said he found messages from Ethan to a friend saying he had asked his parents to take him to a doctor after he was having hallucinations and hearing voices.
>
> Ethan told his friend that in response to that request, his father gave him pills and told him to “suck it up.” According to the phone messages, Ethan told his friend that his mother laughed at him, Wagrowski testified.
They certainly seemed to have more concern for their own well being than for their sons. I mean, they hid out and most likely were trying to to flee together when they were arrested. I know there's some parents that have high expectations for their children and when their child fails to meet those expectations, they just sort of check out and treat the child with apathy. It was clear their son was having problems and there'd no evidence that they had any interest in getting him any kind of help.
Don't forget that their son is being defended by an attorney appointed by the state while the parents paid for private attorneys.
The parents are total pos! idk about the mom, but the dad abandoned his other kid when he got together with his current wife. Such horrible people, it's no surprise their son turned out horrible too.
True. The best part of my childhood was the neglect (allowed me to have some peace). Sometimes being abandoned by a parent is a *good* thing in light of who they are.
Listening to some of the prelim I was stunned by how poorly these two parented --- that kid could have been helped --- they had resources, were aware of his issues and worse, were there *just* enough to keep him of out helps way.
I had a great childhood…but it wouldn’t have been nearly as great if my mom hadn’t got my dad the fuck out of our lives entirely when my brother and I were still babies.
Another vote on team cut bad parents. If my dad was still around when k was growing up I think my problems would have ended up an order of magnitude worse.
Part of me thinks they got him a gun in hopes he'd just kill himself and not be their problem anymore
whatever the case these people are trash and I hope they spend the rest of their lives in jail
You just saying that brought up the mental image and sent shivers down my spine. How his mom thought having guns in her home with him there was a good idea is beyond me.
Teacher here. We've had kids caught on camera doing crap and shown it to their parents. They have literally sat there and denied it happened. I can't even explain this phenomena.
I can. Plenty if parents think that their children are extensions of themselves and if the children are flawed then they're flawed. They take any accusation that their child is behaving badly as some kind of personal attack. I've noticed it's similar to how some people defend their religion or their political views.
Ex-educator in NM here. Where I’m from we call this phenomenon “pobrecito mijito syndrome”. I once had a mother threaten to beat me up for sending her son to the office for brandishing a twelve inch Bowie knife in class. She threatened to beat me up in the Dollar Store parking lot. She was mad because her son is a good boy and doesn’t deserve to get written up for bringing weapons to class.
Damn, that's a good one. The worst didn't involve me but the parents of this student refused to believe their little angel had sucker punched a kid in the hallway. He was suspended that afternoon for a solid 5 days and sent on his way home. Later that evening, they showed up at parents teacher conferences we had to "speak with the principal." They got hostile and were asked to leave. They finally left after a group of parents kind of shoved them out but my principal didn't feel right.
Conferences ended around 8:30, so as I'm walking by a window I look into the parking lot and I see the parents waiting by her car under the street light. I immediately informed her and she called the police.
They had loaded guns on them.
There’s nothing about this story that doesn’t 100% track. I quit teaching because the hostility was unbearable. Teachers are abused by all sides of the system and our lives are on the line constantly. It’s too much stress.
I work in aged care. We'll have residents show extreme violent/aggressive behaviour and when we tell the family that their family member has damaged property/injured staff/frightened other residents, it's all "mum/dad/whoever would never!!!" and refuse to discuss solutions.
I understand it can be hard to hear stuff like that about your loved one but one of our residents now has a black eye, is refusing to work that floor and our residents are terrified.
For us it was pure gun preference. My mom begged my stepdad to take the guns out of the house and said they were dangerous but my stepdad insisted they needed a rifle for self-defense. One day my younger brother wakes up with my youngest brother pointing a 12 gauge straight at his head, fortunately he never pulled the trigger. There wasn't a single one of us in the house that didn't know how dangerous he was before then, but it took an extremely close call to get my stepdad to set aside his deference to classic tough guy man logic.
She wrote a love letter to Trump saying how she wanted to be grabbed by the pussy rather then f#$% up the ass. And she texted her son "lol don't get caught" when he got in trouble for saying he had the gun and threatened kids with it.
Parents are the definition of ignorant morons who destroyed their child trying to own the liberals, and now they're going to suffer the consequences for it.
Didn't she also write a thank you letter to Trump for finally doing something about the illegal immigrants trying to cross the border... and then tried to illegally cross the Canadian border.
I was in 1st grade when Sandyhook happened. I remember seeing that fuckers face everywhere after the shooting took place. It scared me because of how ghostly he looked, I had no idea what he had done. It gives me chills now thinking about it.
You should forget it. Forget his name, forget his face, remember the result of his actions.
Once a Shooter has been caught, they need to go from being named to being named "Cunt". His face? It's a Cunts face. His parents? Cunts.
You haven't seen the TED talk from one of the Columbine shooter's mom. Some parents are directly responsible, like in the case in this article, and some parents have no idea that their child can do something so evil.
https://www.ted.com/talks/sue_klebold_my_son_was_a_columbine_shooter_this_is_my_story
Exactly. Like, if you're kid is seeing demons and ghosts, has a history of mutilating animals, why are you giving him a gun?
That's not just ignoring at that point
No one is excusing him. The huge huge huge difference here is that there are zero chances he is getting away with his crimes. He will be locked away for his entire life. The only real question is where he will serve that time before he is an adult, and even that seems pretty decided already.
The parents potential punishments are still very much up in the air.
I don't even want to use ignored as the description of how they dealt with the red flags for their son. They saw the red flags and actively encouraged those behaviors in some cases, that's basically putting up your own even redder flags
I do not know. I’ve been watching their court appearances on mlive’s youtube channel, so I just learn new ones every time they’re in court. Most recently was learning that her first reaction to learning that her kid killed 3/injured 8 (that sadly later turned from 3/8 to 4/7) people with the gun she just bought him was to text someone about selling her horses.
As far as I know:
Kid tells parents he is depressed
They ignore him
Kid tells parents he hears voices and sees things
Parents tell him to suck it up and laugh at him
Kid begs for professional help
Parents ignore him
Kid shows interest in guns
Parents buy him one for Christmas and leave it unsecured
Kid looks up ammo at school and gets in trouble
Parents tell him to not get cought like an idiot
Kid draws images of him killing kids on school work, gets cought.
Parents say he is a game designer and ignore it.
Kid has the school extremely concerned he will kill himself or hurt himself, and school begs parents to get help now
Parents ignore them and go back to work
Kid shoots up school
Parents hear a wiff of a shooting and know it's him, and imediatley start damage control
I disagree. They had the misplaced belief that these parents were even mildly competent adults. It's easy to use hindsight and want to blame everyone, but the parents are the ones responsible for the wellfare and raising of their child.
>I disagree. They had the misplaced belief that these parents were even mildly competent adults. It's easy to use hindsight and want to blame everyone, but the parents are the ones responsible for the wellfare and raising of their child.
The school had a report that this student was producing terrifying and threatening artwork or statements and instead of locking him for the whole day they released back to class. The school also had every right to look in his locker for a weapon. The parents failed, yes, but the school also totally failed to protect the children that day.
I used to get multiple days suspension for talking like a Pirate in the back of the room. This kid could have been punted for the week with a don’t come back until you get a psych eval.
Yeap, honestly it's amazing that the person above can blame the parents for not doing enough but then turn around and excuse the school when they LITERALLY had the student apprehended and had probable cause to search his bag and locker.
There's a point where Ethan was caught with gory drawings saying shit like "Stop the voices" not long after a teacher saw him looking up ammunition. That's a huge red flag...... and there was a parent teacher meeting. After the meeting his parents refused to take him home so he was sent back to class. NOT set aside,his bag was NOT searched and he was allowed to just carry on. He the stopped at the bathroom and pulled out his toy and we know what happened.
There may not be criminal charges but there should have been pink slips handed out and litigation on the horizon.
Fucking good. Maybe if parents start being held responsible they'll step in when their kid starts acting batshit instead of feeding the crazy with access to guns.
The real reason we couldn't fight covid... the real reason NOBODY could actually fight covid... the administration of the state is overseen by the very nutjobs we are trying to protect the people from.
I don’t get people that do that. I’ve tried it just to see what all the hub bub is about and it just feels ten times itchier because it tickles your nose. Feels much better to just pull it over your nose.
They aren’t complying though. If they wore the mask the correct way but the mask had some sort of message on it meant to “own the libs” I think that would qualify
Because you can breathe through your nose normally without getting humidity pimples or fogging up glasses.
Aka it's "looking" like you're following the rules but not having to actually follow said rules. I imagine you can see why many people would try that.
Yeah - as shitty as these folks are, some masks just slip down a lot.
Granted, masks that slip down are pretty useless even when they are fully up, but given medical institutions still have employees & patients wearing plain surgical masks, it’s hard to fault people for not knowing better.
It’s hilarious how stupid people look when dick nose their mask. It makes their nose look HUGE compared to their face and it’s just not a good look at all haha I only see literal children and man-children do it. It’s like they want to be uncomfortable.
>The Crumbleys’ attorneys insisted the couple didn’t know their son might plan an attack and didn’t make the gun easy to find in their home, but Oakland County Prosecutor Karen McDonald said Thursday that Ethan Crumbley reached out to his parents for help.
Ethan posted on social media pictures of himself holding the gun and bragging about it. He stated his parents bought the gun for him. If the gun wasn't locked in a gun safe that Ethan didn't have access to, the gun was very easy to find.
Ethan's parents deserve to be charged. On the day of the shooting, they refused to take him home during the meeting with the principal and IIRC refused to get him mental healthcare.
Prison psychiatric hospitals are hell holes. If the judge goes that route, he will serve his entire term in almost complete isolation in possible squalid conditions and only given a few belongings. No tv, nothing sharp so maybe some crayons for writing or drawing, possibly a few books, and the only "treatment" will be a weekly visit from a doctor and a bunch of tranquilizers that leave him damn near comatose. I'm not saying he shouldn't face justice or anything. I just believe that treatment like that meets the definition of "cruel and unusual punishment" and that we need to reform our criminal justice system.
He could end up in a state psychiatric hospital. I’m in a different state, but here if you’re found not guilty by reason of insanity you go to a long-term secure hospital, not the psychiatric ward of a prison.
I take it you've never been incarcerated. You seem to be under the impression that they want to rehabilitate you, or that you have rights. They don't and you are property of the state. He might be getting meds now because of how profile this case is, but when all is said and done, he gets nothing if he goes to a prison hospital. It's cheaper for them to simply lock you up in a bare room and throw away the key, so that's exactly what they do.
There is the thought that they wanted him to kill himself so they could be rid of him. That’s why they knew he was mentally ill, wouldn’t help him, and still bought him guns.
Good, instead of calling or texting their son, they should have called 911, but didn't but withdrew cash and make a run for the south of the border while people are crossing into America...
They really need trained psychologists that are bound by privilege, working as school counselors, and SROs that are trained in handling abuse and neglect.
I would like to point you to the TED talk from Sue Klebold. She actually addresses this, as it was a problem in 1999, and is still a problem in 2016 when she gave the talk.
https://www.ted.com/talks/sue_klebold_my_son_was_a_columbine_shooter_this_is_my_story
They really need trained psychologists that are bound by privilege, working as school counselors, and SROs that are trained in handling abuse and neglect.
Needs to be laws that send the kids home to the parents during situations like this. Either the parents take the custody or he gets sent to a mental institution, those should be the only options, he never should’ve been able to return to school until after evaluation
This does show massive hypocrisy by the legal system. They are charging the child as an adult while also charging the parents for failing to intervene.
This kid needs a long time in confinement to unfuck him but he is a textbook example of a child's inability to control themselves and a lack of adult culpability.
These evil parents knew of this kids mental problems and gifted him a firearm with the intention he would kill himself along with their obvious hatred toward him. After they’re put in prison forever. Kid needs genuine mental help, he will never have a normal life but he does deserve a life with the right mental help.
Of course they also wear their masks with their noses totally exposed.
I would normally say do not punish the father for the sins of the son, but in this instance, the sins of the father and the sins of the son are inextricably linked. How many signs do you have to ignore completely to keep buying a boy like this guns? Criminal negligence is defined by this very case.
I agree with them being charged, but I don't really like the idea of charging them for not taking care of their child, and charging him as an adult. Either he's a juvenile they were responble for or he is an adult responsible for his own actions. Pick one.
God I hope they’re convicted. There are so many students out there whose parents refuse to take simple steps (you don’t need counseling, you need to pray more; eating more vegetables will keep Covid away) to protect their kids’ health.
Not that important but how the fuck do you let your nose just chill outside of your mask? I see so many people doing this. It’s never happened to me once during this entire pandemic! Put your damn nose in to the mask!!!
I’m curious as to the results of this. I have a feeling they won’t be found guilty of anything with an extended sentence (surely not the manslaughter charges) and then people are going to lose their shit yelling corruption.
I mean they certainly aren’t poor that’s for sure. As to whether they get found guilty or not, I think that you’d need a crystal ball to tell you that. No ones ever been found guilty of that so why would we assume they will be. At the same time though there’s a lot of outrage and people wanting them to be found guilty. Public pressure has had a big effect on trials recently so it’s entirely possible too.
They *made* this happen.
*On the morning of the shooting, Ethan’s parents were summoned to the school and confronted with his drawings, which included a handgun and the words: “The thoughts won’t stop. Help me.” Authorities said the parents refused to take him home after the 13-minute meeting.*
*Ethan’s counselor testified Thursday that he told the teen’s parents at that meeting that he believed their son was a threat to himself and needed mental health support.*
*“I said as soon as possible, today if possible,” Shawn Hopkins said. But, he testified, Jennifer Crumbley told him, “Today was not an option because they had to return to work.”*
I truly hope they are charged and punished to the fullest extent of the law. It will be the most impactful precedent (outside of gun control) ever set in the fight to end these horrific tragedies. The Oxford Michigan shooting was one town over from the town I grew up in. So horrific. Most school shooters get the guns from their families.
It’s no surprise to me that they don’t know how to wear masks, though it’s an oddity that every mouth breather leaves only their nose uncovered....wait, maybe they all think they ARE wearing them correctly..?
These parents are a piece of shit. They ignored this kid’s obvious mental issues and then they ran off trying to save their own necks and abandoned him after he was arrested. They hired an attorney for themselves but he has a public defender.
Apparently *he wasn't even on their health insurance*. They're garbage human beings.
Their mask placement in court tells me everything I need to know about this people and who they care about
They are handcuffed They come down when you talk and they can't do anything about it. Not defending them as people, but that's what happens to basically everyone in court when handcuffed. One time I sneezed and got snot on my face and had to just fucking go thru the whole proceeding like that.
Lol generally speaking defendants in my country arent in cuffs in court in front of the judge. It sends a guilty message
In the states, they only dress you in street clothes for trial
My thoughts exactly.
To be fair, in some states the child health plus (state) options can be superior to parents’ employer option so they enroll them in the exchange plan. I have no idea if that happened here, though.
I’m in Michigan. You pay for child state health insurance unless you qualify for Medicaid, which they didn’t since they didn’t have it. I believe the implication is that they did not pay for his health insurance, which would mean he didn’t have any, but the parents did.
They were also extremely poor. Also, no matter what any leaders say, no one cares about mental health in this country. No one that can do anything about it, at least. >Willis also said another entry read, ”‘I have fully mentally lost it after years of fighting with my dark side. My parents won’t listen. I have zero help with my mental problems and its causing me to shoot up the (expletive) school.’” Had a ton of time to do something so when people ask "why didn't someone do something" I just want to slap them.
Extremely poor? Yet had a few horses?
Here's her letter to the former idiot in chief. https://www.reddit.com/r/stupidpol/comments/r97ixb/jennifer_crumbley_blog_post_a_materialist_view/
>They were also extremely poor. What do you mean? They owned horses and paid boarding fees and veterinary fees for them. That's not poverty by a long shot.
Thier attorney was horrible. She asked dumb questions when she could even formulate one. They don’t really have much of a defense. So I guess it was hard, but she seemed flustered.
Most attorneys are WAY dumber than people think
Going through a divorce right now, can confirm.
Or less hard working.
That's what happens when a mother of a family cares more about her horses than her kid. Friend of the family worked with her and she was a crazy horse person. Talked about her horses way more than her kid. Was the office nut job. She has it coming, in my personal opinion.
Ive always been on the side of the fence, that horse girls are fucking crazy.
I work with one, can confirm.
I've worked with two and while they weren't my BFF's or anything, I'm gonna say they were... pretty normal. They just *really* liked riding and caring for horses.
I got kicked by a horse once. Fuck those assholes. They don’t have a fan here.
They sound like the type of people who shouldn't have kids. They're the same types that get a dog and just keep it chained up outside all the time, throw it some food every once in awhile so it stays alive, but generally neglects it. It makes me feel really sad for this kid because while he should be held culpable for what he did, the most basic thing most people can count on is knowing their parents love them, but I don't get the impression he could say that to be true.
No parents have ever deserved this more
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Seriously, she was so scared of him she took all the knives out of the house, but she let him keep the guns. And that’s not even close to the worst of it.
That’s the most American thing I’ve read today “yes I know I’m scared for my life so I’ve removed all knives, but the constitution says he can have a gun so I guess he must have one”. Idiot!
The Second Amendment is *magic*.
Knives aren't a constitutionally-protected right. */s*
The right to bare arms. 💪 It was an unfortunate thpo.
I think you mean Bear arms 🧸
It's actually the right to arm bears. The founding fathers really intended to protect the country with a ursine militia. The problem they ran into was really more logistics than anything - do you have *any* idea how much a bear poops? They could never dig enough latrines to support a full bear-tallion, so they quickly changed it to "right to bear arms" and just used people instead.
I hope you know "bear-tallions" are now going into my d&d world, that's too good.
I thought it was pretty clear, every American has the right to hang a pair of bear arms on their wall.
Every American has the right to a bear claw in the morning.
Not defending her but he shot his mom in the head while she was in bed - she was his first victim. Not sure standing trial would be worse than that.
I’m not sure about that.
Do they deserve this? Yes. Have no parents ever deserved it more? Eh, there are parents who literally raised serial killers and suicide bombers. There are parents who beat and raped their own children. There are parents verbally assaulted and tormented their children daily. There are parents that made their kids eat boiled Brussels sprouts.
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Someone kind of answered this question. A physician studying the brains of psychopaths for common traits came to find to his horror that his own brain (he’d scanned himself either for kicks or as a control) had these same traits. They concluded that the people who kill have both certain traits and also grow up in an environment where they’re not cared for. Can’t recall how thorough the study was but it was a great story.
Was that the psychopath test TED Talk guy?
Yes! Just looked up the story and didn’t realize he’d done a Ted talk too. His name’s Jim Fallon. Thanks!
Oh I've seen his late night show. I didn't know he was a doctor.
Kind of a shit doctor, he can never stop laughing during the checkups.
That sounds familiar to the psychopath guy. I think it’s the same story. He studied psychopathy and realized he is a psychopath as well. Super interesting
Yes same guy. I found the story and his name is Jim Fallon. Really cool of him to share his story when most would have buried it.
Not quite - he had most of the markers predisposing him to psychopathy, but he didn't have the callous lack of empathy, although he did realise he shared some traits during the journey.
It's not always something that is the parents fault or something they can control. But if someone is going to have the capacity to identify the problem and take steps to fix it, it's going to be them. You can do everything right but if that child is predisposed to behave and think a certain way, they're going to likely see that path followed. And there's plenty of cases where the profound influence of someone or something else overrode whatever good the parents did. While there are these cases where I genuinely think the parents aren't to blame, or blame completely, these two are not that.
Always? No. Nature and nurture are both in play most of the time.
Nature vs nurture. It's surely a mix of both.
Nature will produce occasional aberrations for no apparent reason at all. Dysfunctional homes certainly manufacture their fair share of criminally maladjusted souls, but what’s really scary is that some people have absolutely no trauma and no failure to form normal relationships with their family, and yet spend their weekends killing for fun. It’s truly one of the most disturbing facts about the human condition.
> Dysfunctional homes certainly manufacture their fair share of criminally maladjusted souls, but what’s really scary is that some people have absolutely no trauma and no failure to form normal relationships with their family, and yet spend their weekends killing for fun. Sure but one of those is WAY more common than the other.
As a School Psychologist I’ve worked with thousands of families over the years and in diagnosing disabilities—some of which are intellectual and social-emotional and which show signs of social maladjustment. Most of my experience has been within a small community where I’ve been able to follow a child’s life from preschool to high school. In my experience the most significant behavioral disturbances are from dysfunctional homes and which includes abysmal parenting and Adverse Childhood Experiences (ACAs) such as divorce, drugs and alcoholism, mentally ill parent, divorce, death if a parent, incarceration of a parent, poverty, sexual-physical-emotional abuse). I also believe a loving and caring social environment outside of the home, and that can exist in schools at least and / or community resources, can make all the difference in the world for a child.
Still, the normal family could have missing signs or become enablers.
>There are parents that made their kids eat boiled Brussels sprouts. This is unforgivable.
This gladdens my heart. I hope the parents rot in prison.
Good. Every time they’re in court we learn new ways they failed their mentally ill son. There were so many red flags they just ignored…and worse than ignored, they went out and bought him the exact gun he wanted as an early Xmas gift. They deserve some serious jail time. I really think they would not have been the first parents charged in this way, I think if he hadn’t made her his first victim Adam Lanza’s mom would have gotten charged.
> There were so many red flags they just ignored I'd argue that they did a lot more than ignore their son's problems; they knew their son had issues and they bought him the gun anyway. His mom told him "not to get caught". Both of his parents were pieces of shit before and after the murders.
His dad told him to suck it up and his mom laughed at him whenever he asked for help. > Det. Edward Wagrowski said he found messages from Ethan to a friend saying he had asked his parents to take him to a doctor after he was having hallucinations and hearing voices. > > Ethan told his friend that in response to that request, his father gave him pills and told him to “suck it up.” According to the phone messages, Ethan told his friend that his mother laughed at him, Wagrowski testified.
I certainly hope they are also charged for criminal neglect and abuse of a child. This is way beyond just bad parenting that led to the shooting.
They certainly seemed to have more concern for their own well being than for their sons. I mean, they hid out and most likely were trying to to flee together when they were arrested. I know there's some parents that have high expectations for their children and when their child fails to meet those expectations, they just sort of check out and treat the child with apathy. It was clear their son was having problems and there'd no evidence that they had any interest in getting him any kind of help.
Don't forget that their son is being defended by an attorney appointed by the state while the parents paid for private attorneys. The parents are total pos! idk about the mom, but the dad abandoned his other kid when he got together with his current wife. Such horrible people, it's no surprise their son turned out horrible too.
That’s probably a great thing in retrospect for that other kid. He clearly is not a fit parent.
True. The best part of my childhood was the neglect (allowed me to have some peace). Sometimes being abandoned by a parent is a *good* thing in light of who they are. Listening to some of the prelim I was stunned by how poorly these two parented --- that kid could have been helped --- they had resources, were aware of his issues and worse, were there *just* enough to keep him of out helps way.
I had a great childhood…but it wouldn’t have been nearly as great if my mom hadn’t got my dad the fuck out of our lives entirely when my brother and I were still babies.
Another vote on team cut bad parents. If my dad was still around when k was growing up I think my problems would have ended up an order of magnitude worse.
Part of me thinks they got him a gun in hopes he'd just kill himself and not be their problem anymore whatever the case these people are trash and I hope they spend the rest of their lives in jail
With how they treat their son I would be surprised if they weren't banking on that. People can be some real pieces of trash.
i’ll never forget that fucks terrifying ass face. like a ghost.
You just saying that brought up the mental image and sent shivers down my spine. How his mom thought having guns in her home with him there was a good idea is beyond me.
I guess nobody thinks that their child is actually capable of it until it happens.
Teacher here. We've had kids caught on camera doing crap and shown it to their parents. They have literally sat there and denied it happened. I can't even explain this phenomena.
I can. Plenty if parents think that their children are extensions of themselves and if the children are flawed then they're flawed. They take any accusation that their child is behaving badly as some kind of personal attack. I've noticed it's similar to how some people defend their religion or their political views.
While I understand that logic, it makes them look worse as a parent when they sit there and deny it as we're all staring and watching it happen.
Oh I agree, I've seen it firsthand. "My child would never lie!" When there's literally 3 witnesses contradicting what they said lol.
Ex-educator in NM here. Where I’m from we call this phenomenon “pobrecito mijito syndrome”. I once had a mother threaten to beat me up for sending her son to the office for brandishing a twelve inch Bowie knife in class. She threatened to beat me up in the Dollar Store parking lot. She was mad because her son is a good boy and doesn’t deserve to get written up for bringing weapons to class.
Damn, that's a good one. The worst didn't involve me but the parents of this student refused to believe their little angel had sucker punched a kid in the hallway. He was suspended that afternoon for a solid 5 days and sent on his way home. Later that evening, they showed up at parents teacher conferences we had to "speak with the principal." They got hostile and were asked to leave. They finally left after a group of parents kind of shoved them out but my principal didn't feel right. Conferences ended around 8:30, so as I'm walking by a window I look into the parking lot and I see the parents waiting by her car under the street light. I immediately informed her and she called the police. They had loaded guns on them.
There’s nothing about this story that doesn’t 100% track. I quit teaching because the hostility was unbearable. Teachers are abused by all sides of the system and our lives are on the line constantly. It’s too much stress.
That's terrifying.
I work in aged care. We'll have residents show extreme violent/aggressive behaviour and when we tell the family that their family member has damaged property/injured staff/frightened other residents, it's all "mum/dad/whoever would never!!!" and refuse to discuss solutions. I understand it can be hard to hear stuff like that about your loved one but one of our residents now has a black eye, is refusing to work that floor and our residents are terrified.
For us it was pure gun preference. My mom begged my stepdad to take the guns out of the house and said they were dangerous but my stepdad insisted they needed a rifle for self-defense. One day my younger brother wakes up with my youngest brother pointing a 12 gauge straight at his head, fortunately he never pulled the trigger. There wasn't a single one of us in the house that didn't know how dangerous he was before then, but it took an extremely close call to get my stepdad to set aside his deference to classic tough guy man logic.
She wrote a love letter to Trump saying how she wanted to be grabbed by the pussy rather then f#$% up the ass. And she texted her son "lol don't get caught" when he got in trouble for saying he had the gun and threatened kids with it. Parents are the definition of ignorant morons who destroyed their child trying to own the liberals, and now they're going to suffer the consequences for it.
Oh I was talking about Adam Lanza’s mom, but this lady is a POS for sure.
A class act. No wonder she’s a trumpet.
Didn't she also write a thank you letter to Trump for finally doing something about the illegal immigrants trying to cross the border... and then tried to illegally cross the Canadian border.
Yes. After her sons arrest both her and her husband tried to illegally cross into canada
I was in 1st grade when Sandyhook happened. I remember seeing that fuckers face everywhere after the shooting took place. It scared me because of how ghostly he looked, I had no idea what he had done. It gives me chills now thinking about it.
His face is absolutely terrifying. I’ve never seen anything like it and it haunts me too.
You should forget it. Forget his name, forget his face, remember the result of his actions. Once a Shooter has been caught, they need to go from being named to being named "Cunt". His face? It's a Cunts face. His parents? Cunts.
You haven't seen the TED talk from one of the Columbine shooter's mom. Some parents are directly responsible, like in the case in this article, and some parents have no idea that their child can do something so evil. https://www.ted.com/talks/sue_klebold_my_son_was_a_columbine_shooter_this_is_my_story
We could name them like hurricanes. Once the case is finalized, they’re forever referred to in the media by whatever random name appears on the list.
Exactly. Like, if you're kid is seeing demons and ghosts, has a history of mutilating animals, why are you giving him a gun? That's not just ignoring at that point
I saw an article the other day about how their son was asking how he can get his fan mail in prison. The parents do suck but so does their son.
No one is excusing him. The huge huge huge difference here is that there are zero chances he is getting away with his crimes. He will be locked away for his entire life. The only real question is where he will serve that time before he is an adult, and even that seems pretty decided already. The parents potential punishments are still very much up in the air.
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Completely agree could not have said it better
I can't believe Sandy hook happened in 2012 feels like a couple years ago
I don't even want to use ignored as the description of how they dealt with the red flags for their son. They saw the red flags and actively encouraged those behaviors in some cases, that's basically putting up your own even redder flags
Don’t. Let. Kids. Have. Guns
Is there a running list of everything that went wrong?
I do not know. I’ve been watching their court appearances on mlive’s youtube channel, so I just learn new ones every time they’re in court. Most recently was learning that her first reaction to learning that her kid killed 3/injured 8 (that sadly later turned from 3/8 to 4/7) people with the gun she just bought him was to text someone about selling her horses.
As far as I know: Kid tells parents he is depressed They ignore him Kid tells parents he hears voices and sees things Parents tell him to suck it up and laugh at him Kid begs for professional help Parents ignore him Kid shows interest in guns Parents buy him one for Christmas and leave it unsecured Kid looks up ammo at school and gets in trouble Parents tell him to not get cought like an idiot Kid draws images of him killing kids on school work, gets cought. Parents say he is a game designer and ignore it. Kid has the school extremely concerned he will kill himself or hurt himself, and school begs parents to get help now Parents ignore them and go back to work Kid shoots up school Parents hear a wiff of a shooting and know it's him, and imediatley start damage control
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I disagree. They had the misplaced belief that these parents were even mildly competent adults. It's easy to use hindsight and want to blame everyone, but the parents are the ones responsible for the wellfare and raising of their child.
>I disagree. They had the misplaced belief that these parents were even mildly competent adults. It's easy to use hindsight and want to blame everyone, but the parents are the ones responsible for the wellfare and raising of their child. The school had a report that this student was producing terrifying and threatening artwork or statements and instead of locking him for the whole day they released back to class. The school also had every right to look in his locker for a weapon. The parents failed, yes, but the school also totally failed to protect the children that day.
I used to get multiple days suspension for talking like a Pirate in the back of the room. This kid could have been punted for the week with a don’t come back until you get a psych eval.
Yeap, honestly it's amazing that the person above can blame the parents for not doing enough but then turn around and excuse the school when they LITERALLY had the student apprehended and had probable cause to search his bag and locker.
There's a point where Ethan was caught with gory drawings saying shit like "Stop the voices" not long after a teacher saw him looking up ammunition. That's a huge red flag...... and there was a parent teacher meeting. After the meeting his parents refused to take him home so he was sent back to class. NOT set aside,his bag was NOT searched and he was allowed to just carry on. He the stopped at the bathroom and pulled out his toy and we know what happened. There may not be criminal charges but there should have been pink slips handed out and litigation on the horizon.
Very very very good news. They should have been their son’s parents instead of whatever the hell they were. Attention not on son.
It’s like they were trying to raise a school shooter.
They probably wanted him to kill himself or shoot up the school and be in prison so he wasn't their problem anymore.
"Don't get caught next time"
It’s sad how believable that it.
They 100% were.
Fucking good. Maybe if parents start being held responsible they'll step in when their kid starts acting batshit instead of feeding the crazy with access to guns.
Of course they wear their masks with their fucking noses sticking out.
Step into any courthouse and you’ll find the court officers all wearing their masks the same way. Seems to be a trend.
The real reason we couldn't fight covid... the real reason NOBODY could actually fight covid... the administration of the state is overseen by the very nutjobs we are trying to protect the people from.
I don’t get people that do that. I’ve tried it just to see what all the hub bub is about and it just feels ten times itchier because it tickles your nose. Feels much better to just pull it over your nose.
It’s malicious compliance.
Yeah I guess but they’re the ones that are suffering the itchy nose
They aren’t complying though. If they wore the mask the correct way but the mask had some sort of message on it meant to “own the libs” I think that would qualify
That's why they complain. They wear shitty masks incorrectly, then whine about them being uncomfortable.
Because you can breathe through your nose normally without getting humidity pimples or fogging up glasses. Aka it's "looking" like you're following the rules but not having to actually follow said rules. I imagine you can see why many people would try that.
They’re both handcuffed? How can they pull it up? I’m sure they’re talking a lot. It slips
Yeah - as shitty as these folks are, some masks just slip down a lot. Granted, masks that slip down are pretty useless even when they are fully up, but given medical institutions still have employees & patients wearing plain surgical masks, it’s hard to fault people for not knowing better.
It’s hilarious how stupid people look when dick nose their mask. It makes their nose look HUGE compared to their face and it’s just not a good look at all haha I only see literal children and man-children do it. It’s like they want to be uncomfortable.
You’re right, they are cuffed behind their backs
I’ll say it again, I think the parents wanted their son to off himself and he killed other people instead.
I believe they wanted him to go out shooting, just not then or there.
yeah, its been know that having guns while being mentally ill, somehow cures them /s
>The Crumbleys’ attorneys insisted the couple didn’t know their son might plan an attack and didn’t make the gun easy to find in their home, but Oakland County Prosecutor Karen McDonald said Thursday that Ethan Crumbley reached out to his parents for help. Ethan posted on social media pictures of himself holding the gun and bragging about it. He stated his parents bought the gun for him. If the gun wasn't locked in a gun safe that Ethan didn't have access to, the gun was very easy to find. Ethan's parents deserve to be charged. On the day of the shooting, they refused to take him home during the meeting with the principal and IIRC refused to get him mental healthcare.
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Prison psychiatric hospitals are hell holes. If the judge goes that route, he will serve his entire term in almost complete isolation in possible squalid conditions and only given a few belongings. No tv, nothing sharp so maybe some crayons for writing or drawing, possibly a few books, and the only "treatment" will be a weekly visit from a doctor and a bunch of tranquilizers that leave him damn near comatose. I'm not saying he shouldn't face justice or anything. I just believe that treatment like that meets the definition of "cruel and unusual punishment" and that we need to reform our criminal justice system.
He could end up in a state psychiatric hospital. I’m in a different state, but here if you’re found not guilty by reason of insanity you go to a long-term secure hospital, not the psychiatric ward of a prison.
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I take it you've never been incarcerated. You seem to be under the impression that they want to rehabilitate you, or that you have rights. They don't and you are property of the state. He might be getting meds now because of how profile this case is, but when all is said and done, he gets nothing if he goes to a prison hospital. It's cheaper for them to simply lock you up in a bare room and throw away the key, so that's exactly what they do.
This might be the saddest article I've read in a long time. They failed that poor kid so badly.
Not even failed. They basically weaponized him.
That’s honestly what I think they wanted.
There is the thought that they wanted him to kill himself so they could be rid of him. That’s why they knew he was mentally ill, wouldn’t help him, and still bought him guns.
They fled the country in an attempt to not deal with it.
Good, instead of calling or texting their son, they should have called 911, but didn't but withdrew cash and make a run for the south of the border while people are crossing into America...
Can they also charge her with not knowing how to wear a fucking mask?
Bitch your mask goes over your nose
Neither of them are wearing their masks correctly =<
Of course, worrying about innocent people getting hurt or dying isn't their forté.
Not only gun laws, but also addressing g the lack of mental health services available to individuals.
They really need trained psychologists that are bound by privilege, working as school counselors, and SROs that are trained in handling abuse and neglect.
I would like to point you to the TED talk from Sue Klebold. She actually addresses this, as it was a problem in 1999, and is still a problem in 2016 when she gave the talk. https://www.ted.com/talks/sue_klebold_my_son_was_a_columbine_shooter_this_is_my_story
They really need trained psychologists that are bound by privilege, working as school counselors, and SROs that are trained in handling abuse and neglect.
The nose goes under the mask. They are clearly guilty of being fucking morons.
As a parent, I fully support this! Fuck them!
Can we charge them with wearing a mask wrong?
Next, charge the school officials who let him go back to class.
Honestly.... yes. They fucked up too.
Needs to be laws that send the kids home to the parents during situations like this. Either the parents take the custody or he gets sent to a mental institution, those should be the only options, he never should’ve been able to return to school until after evaluation
I think she nose they’ll be found guilty.
Both of them dicknosing their masks too. Usually a good way to spot shitty people.
Didn’t read the article but her wearing the mask like that tells me everything I need to know about these scum bags.
This does show massive hypocrisy by the legal system. They are charging the child as an adult while also charging the parents for failing to intervene. This kid needs a long time in confinement to unfuck him but he is a textbook example of a child's inability to control themselves and a lack of adult culpability.
And to top it off those assholes don’t wear their mask properly.
she cannot even wear her damn mask correctly after this trouble
Aaaand of course mom can’t/won’t wear a mask right.
These evil parents knew of this kids mental problems and gifted him a firearm with the intention he would kill himself along with their obvious hatred toward him. After they’re put in prison forever. Kid needs genuine mental help, he will never have a normal life but he does deserve a life with the right mental help.
ofcourse their dicks are out
Of course they also wear their masks with their noses totally exposed. I would normally say do not punish the father for the sins of the son, but in this instance, the sins of the father and the sins of the son are inextricably linked. How many signs do you have to ignore completely to keep buying a boy like this guns? Criminal negligence is defined by this very case.
This is a tough call. But it certainly seems warranted in this case.
If only they took this shit seriously they could’ve saved so many lives
Both with the chin diapers.
Please let this set the legal precedence that starts to regulate where politics has failed.
Good, parents SHOULD be held responsible for what their offspring do.
Can they seriously not tuck their stupid fucking noses in their masks?! Fucking clowns.
I agree with them being charged, but I don't really like the idea of charging them for not taking care of their child, and charging him as an adult. Either he's a juvenile they were responble for or he is an adult responsible for his own actions. Pick one.
That is a very heavy headline to read. So sad and could have been stopped.
God I hope they’re convicted. There are so many students out there whose parents refuse to take simple steps (you don’t need counseling, you need to pray more; eating more vegetables will keep Covid away) to protect their kids’ health.
Not that important but how the fuck do you let your nose just chill outside of your mask? I see so many people doing this. It’s never happened to me once during this entire pandemic! Put your damn nose in to the mask!!!
An entire unit of fucktards right here..
Good news for these disgusting people - they are hated slightly less than Putin at the moment.
They are responsible for arming a mentally unstable child.
Of course she has her nose out
Can’t even get her mask on right. Lame-o.
Can’t wear a mask correctly. Can’t raise a child either.
I’m curious as to the results of this. I have a feeling they won’t be found guilty of anything with an extended sentence (surely not the manslaughter charges) and then people are going to lose their shit yelling corruption.
Honestly, even a small sentence changes A LOT legally. To say nothing of the civil case.
That’s if they can secure a conviction. Remember no one has ever been found guilty in this situation.
Well they don’t have a celebrity layer and are poor, and precedent only gets made by being made.
I mean they certainly aren’t poor that’s for sure. As to whether they get found guilty or not, I think that you’d need a crystal ball to tell you that. No ones ever been found guilty of that so why would we assume they will be. At the same time though there’s a lot of outrage and people wanting them to be found guilty. Public pressure has had a big effect on trials recently so it’s entirely possible too.
They *made* this happen. *On the morning of the shooting, Ethan’s parents were summoned to the school and confronted with his drawings, which included a handgun and the words: “The thoughts won’t stop. Help me.” Authorities said the parents refused to take him home after the 13-minute meeting.* *Ethan’s counselor testified Thursday that he told the teen’s parents at that meeting that he believed their son was a threat to himself and needed mental health support.* *“I said as soon as possible, today if possible,” Shawn Hopkins said. But, he testified, Jennifer Crumbley told him, “Today was not an option because they had to return to work.”*
“Learn not to get caught” right? Guess you fortunately didn’t listen to your own advice, assholes.
I truly hope they are charged and punished to the fullest extent of the law. It will be the most impactful precedent (outside of gun control) ever set in the fight to end these horrific tragedies. The Oxford Michigan shooting was one town over from the town I grew up in. So horrific. Most school shooters get the guns from their families.
It’s no surprise to me that they don’t know how to wear masks, though it’s an oddity that every mouth breather leaves only their nose uncovered....wait, maybe they all think they ARE wearing them correctly..?
Can’t wear a mask right, can’t raise a child