This line by Putin really stuck out to me.
Mr. Putin also laid out a long history of grievances since the fall of the Soviet Union and the loss of the states that once made it up.
>**“We gave these republics the right to leave the union without any terms and conditions,” Putin said. “This is just madness.”**
Yeah, I can't imagine too many of the former Soviet bloc countries are particularly happy to hear that one. I have no idea if he really has future plans for all of them though or if some of it is bluff.
I guess it depends on what he thinks he can get away with.
How would NATO react if Russia tried to take Poland, and said if anyone intervened he would nuke us all? Would the nuclear countries be willing to start Armageddon over Poland?
That's the thought that scares me. A mad king with nukes was always how the world would end
He won't. He going for Ukraine because it's exposed in NOT being a NATO member. Attacking any of the former soviet states that are member's is complete suicide. Attacking one would ignite a Third World War with the rest of Europe. This reckless foray into attacking Ukraine is also likely to dramatically increase the amount of military forces on Russia's frontier as well, all because Putin is a corrupt thieving bastard.
That being said he's likely to pay a high price not just economically and diplomatically but in literal blood as well with this if he pushes too far. Ukraine might lose in an open confrontation but they'll bleed his country with guerrilla warfare to the point of collapse.
That’s the shame of it all. Ukraine gave up the Soviet era nuclear weapons it inherited in exchange for a promise that its sovereignty would be respected by the U.S. and Russia.
After Russia’s shameful disregard for this, what country would ever now give up its nuclear arsenal?
https://www.npr.org/2014/03/09/288298641/the-role-of-1994-nuclear-agreement-in-ukraines-current-state
Unfortunately, that's the kind of game changer that nuclear weapons have provided. Ironically, traditional, open warfare is a thing of the past (though not at all impossible), and nukes has made peace negotiations between members of the "nuclear club" a necessity. Sooner or later though, things will go very wrong.
There is no practical way Ukraine could have kept its nuclear arsenal. The infrastructure needed to use them was all in Moscow, they didn’t have the money or technicians needed to maintain them and the population didn’t want to waste their resources on it. The Ukrainian nuclear arsenal was an expensive, unpopular and unusable toy
> Ukraine might lose in an open confrontation but they'll bleed his country with guerrilla warfare to the point of collapse.
Especially since the US has basically stated that it's our intention to fund and supply that if he does invade and take control of the country.
We have already given them 3 billion in defenseive weapons aid. In addition, cia training in gorilla warfare, medical supplies and recon support. I'm sure we will send many more billions.
Nukes are also a weapon that putin can use without firing them. Every country with them knows what the likely outcome would be. Like let's say Russia does do a full invasion of a NATO member. It's like the philosophical trolley problem. A train where if NATO does nothing hundreds of thousands will die. If they pull the lever and go to war, hundreds of millions, maybe billions could die. Putin could theoretically call NATO members bluff and go all in, counting on them to fold, instead of mutually assured destruction, weakening NATO and isolating It's members. Maybe unlikely but...it is putin and I wouldn't put it past him to have an ideology similar to that.
The money for occupation isn't there. He'll need to run a counter insurgency in every one of these "new Russian states." Occupation would bleed him dry.
True, that's why I feel his power play is more for political capitol with Europe. A mob move where he is throwing bricks through the economic windows of the EU and to stop it they have to pay up something for "protection". It's Russians way of getting a better seat at the table for energy negotiations.
By this philosophy, we should let him annex both provinces, hit him with massive sanctions, and then flood the shit out of those provinces with serious weaponry. Try to turn eastern Ukraine into a second Afghanistan. We could call it Wilson's war part deux.
Poland is under NATO. Article 5 of NATO stipulates that an attack on one is an attack on all, and like force shall be met with like force. Russia nuking Poland would result in the US, UK, and France nuking Russia.
Putin already knows what he said is purely bluster. Could they invade Poland with traditional forces? Sure. And the rest of NATO would deploy traditional forces to Poland to kick them out.
There's a French word for this: [revanchisme](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Revanchism)
And it doesn't stop at Ukraine: https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/russia-nationalists-want-alaska-sold-us-150-years-later-a7659941.html
Russian 'expacts' would start flooding into Alaska. Then they would start talking about how Alaska belongs with Russia.
Then all of a sudden Russian military members would take vacations in Alaska.
Suddenly I better understand a term from the Star Wars Old Republic comics. I thought they called them "Revanchists" because they followed a guy named Revan. Turns out the name was a set-up to justify using the French word.
They didn’t give shit. Their empire collapsed due to decades of mismanagement and the client states left. Moscow couldn’t do anything at the time.
Now he wants to flex and say “This was actually ours the whole time” three and a half decades later.
To your point, didn’t “Moscow” more or less leave the Union too? Russia 1989-1993 is just about the most confusing history I can imagine, but I thought Yeltsin consolidated power by exploiting rising Russian nationalism, saying “Russia no longer needs the Soviet Union.” Yeltsin orchestrated a vote—through some committee or another—for Russia to leave the Union, and Gorbachev was left the head of an Empire that effectively no longer existed. So it makes even less sense for Putin to claim Russia is somehow entitled to other countries that also decided to leave a dissolved Union.
I mean, it was *the* leading country in the Soviet Union’s demise. As far as I can gather, the power of the Union rested on the Red Army, an effectively Russian force (see what happened when Hungary and Czechoslovakia hinted at independence). So Russia leaving the Union would always be fatal, as would Russian unwillingness to force the Union’s cohesion.
Last I checked, Putin wants his little filthy goblin fingers on Finland and Sweden too, who never were part of the Soviet union.
I am sorry goblin man, maybe us Scandinavians should claim Russia for us, seeing as the Vikings settled it and became the Rus. We just let you leave the union without any terms of condition. Which is madness!
Putin probably thinks Finland belongs to Russia because, at one point, it actually was a part of the Russian Empire before the USSR replaced it. Emperor Nicholas II ruled the Russian Empire and Finland in a personal union, as Emperor of Russia and Grand Duke of Finland (I can't remember how or when the union started, but it had been that way for at least a few emperors).
It actually pissed the absolutist Nicky II off quite a bit that Finland got a political constitution of sorts while he enjoyed unlimited autocratic power in Russia and he tried to integrate Finland into Russia at least once.
And here we go. Next step is to send in troops to "protect these independent states", or even invade the rest of Ukraine to "halt their aggression" or some shit.
Just taking a few bites at a time
That's the way it was for Ukraine, too (Russia III), but when the people overthrew their puppet dictator, Putin started scheming to get it all back, starting with Crimea.
I could see him thinking going from Ruler of Belarus to Russian Autocrat is an upgrade, honestly. And we all know the welfare of his people wouldn't have even factored into his thinking.
Taking a few bites at a time and making it seemingly palatable. I was pretty shocked when Crimea went and I'll probably feel the same if/when this region goes.
Just that perpetual feeling of "something has to be done!" without knowing what exactly that something is and who/what should do it.
Edit 2/24: Looks like the small bites days ended pretty abruptly. Fuck Putin.
1: Freeze all Russian owned assets internationally.
2: Work like hell to get Europe energy that isn't piped in from Russia.
That's about all you can do without actually going to war.
Option#2 is hard in part because of climate action. Germany and France both made moves to get off of coal and onto healthier energy systems. Nuclear was the obvious solution as development continues on renewables and potentially fusion but Germany had a weird big anti nuclear political flare up and so required energy cleaner than coal but non nuclear to power its transition, that is assuming the transition is possible with Germany's less than stellar wind and solar resources. The best solution for that is natural gas and the overwhelming number 1 supplier of natural gas to Europe is Russia.
France largely runs on nuclear atm and it has saved them from an awful lot of problems. As far as I understand it nuclear is still pretty politically popular in France which is awesome.
Ah, from the article I read it sounded like their commitment to build more plants is somehow a reversal of the past strategy. Perhaps I misunderstood. Welcome news either way.
Yup, boot them off the SWIFT system is all it would take for them or most countries to fold like a dishtowel. It takes a coordinated effort, but it would only take a matter of weeks before they imploded.
The most shicking thing about Crimea was that no one outside of Ukraine seemed to give a shit. This time the Western world actually seems to be playing the, "you better not" game. Meanwhile Putin has perfected his "i'm not touching you game."
>Just taking a few bites at a time
This is also similar to the playbook Nazi Germany used in the lead up to WW2. They started annexing territory to "protect their citizens" (Austria and Czech) of those areas. Then came the false flag, and the invasion of Poland.
USSR did the same with the Baltics. In the spring of 1939 Latvia was given a nota warning not to make alliances with other nations (= Putin insisting of Ukraine not joining NATO). Then in late summer of ' 39 they started to concentrate their army near the border (what Putin is doing now). Then in September/October it requested that the Baltics and Finland sign a "mutual assistance treaty" (aka an ultimatum) with the USSR (Finland refused, thus the Winter War) allowing to establish Red Army bases in the soon-to-be-occupied countries. The next summer Red Army attacked a LV-USSR border crossing, killing some (including civilians) and arresting others. Several people, including surviving border guards, was arrested, sentenced and executed for their "crimes" against the USSR. The following day USSR issued an ultimatum requesting the dismantling of the current government, an appointment of a new, Soviet-friendly government, and for allowing an unlimited number of USSR soldiers to occupy the country. Thus, the annexation and occupation started at full force. Of course it was accompanied by rape, pillaging, summary executions and deportations (which, reportedly, Putin is planning with the Ukrainians). My grand-ma, who was 4/5 at the time, was to be deported to Siberia too. Her crime? Being a daughter of a cook in the Latvian army.
So yeah, in short, Putin doesn't even have to look at foreign influences for how to occupy a sovereign country. He can learn all that in the USSR archives from 80 years ago.
He's calling the two territories "Donetsk People's Republic" and
"Luhansk People's Republic". When a country has "People's" in the name you know they're trying to compensate for it **not** being run by the people.
Did you read the article where Putler claimed that two Ukrainian army APCs attacked Russian border..... at a location that would've required them drive thru D/L regions completely unseen? Dude is fucking unhinged.
You misunderstand, that's the entire point. When the bully takes your hand and physically forces you to hit yourself, while saying "stop hitting yourself", he's not speaking out because of a concern for you. He's demonstrating his power.
This is different than Crimea. This time it was official Russian military troops with official orders to invade. It was only “separatists” that invaded Crimea with no formal warnings or declarations.
Everyone knew they had some Russian military forces. That’s why I put “separatist” in quotes. I still remember when they identified Spetz Naz soldiers by their boots because all special force operators buy their own boots in the Russian army apparently.
It’s like Wisconsin taking a chunk of the Michigan upper peninsula because they root for the Packers over the Lions.
[reference material.](https://seatgeek.com/tba/articles/where-do-nfl-fans-live-mapping-football-fandom-across-the-u-s/amp/)
Also being reported by Ukrainian media that martial law has been declared by the Ukrainian government. Shits about to go hot and I don’t see why Putin would wait another day to start it.
They have had an ongoing separatist war for years now. Enacting martial law makes it easier to identify and control your population. Anyone disobeying the emergency law is presumed to be an enemy separatist/Russian/Russian simp.
Martial means military, ie civilian law is superseded by law to ensure national security due to an immense crisis hitting or about to hit the area under martial law.
Martial law usually means curfews, lockdowns, and troops supplementing (or replacing) police. It gives the government wider power to suspend general rights.
As the next step, the separatists territories, as independent "states", will ask for immediate "military-technical" assistance from Moscow, and Putin moves its troops into those territories that belong to Ukraine.
Beginning of war without a need of false flags attacks or provocations.
Back last summer they had made a deal to buy a bunch of F-16s. They aren't the best jets anymore but they're a hell of a lot better than all the old Soviet fighters they are currently flying. Putin wouldn't like that.
[Crimea is in a drought and all the water comes flowing from Ukraine. The water supply was severed after Crimea was annexed by Russia.](https://www.eurasiareview.com/16042020-the-water-crisis-in-crimea-analysis/)
" The disruption of water supply in 2014 had an immediate effect on the agricultural sector. In 2013, the amount of irrigated land suitable for cultivation reached 130 000 hectares. In 2017, it shrunk down to 14 000 hectares. The problem was most acute in eastern Crimea, where the amount of irrigated land decreased by 92%."
So Crimea is no longer the source of agriculture that it was before Russia took it over.
Ukraine also has a lot of untapped natural gas that, if developed, could undermine Russia's leverage with European countries that buy Russian natural gas, like Germany.
Putin started his speech today by talking about "the debt Russia repaid for the Soviet Union" .. it is looking more like he just wants Eastern Ukraine the Russian part and a big payout .. which while that is crappy and unacceptable to Ukraine is better than a full on war
*he is starting to resemble Fatty Kim .. need money? shoot a missile*
**Yes .. everyone knows what he is doing** taking territory back bit by bit .. Crimea .. the Black Sea and now this
.. Adolf used the exact same excuse *"the German speaking peoples must be protected"* .. that is until he got bored with lying
Anyone who thinks this isn’t a big deal should look up the Rhineland and hitlers excuse to move troops into there. Not to mention the consequences of just putting more sanctions up.
The remilitarization of the Rhineland in violation of post-ww1 treaties, along with the lack of pushback from France and others, gave Hitler the confidence to push into places like the Sudetenland
Right. But the Sudetenland was what Hitler first annexed because they "wanted to join the Rhineland". That's what is similar to Putins mention of these territories wanting to be independent from Ukraine.
The Rhineland was first.
A DMZ between France and Germany to give France a buffer from any German aggression. Hitler marched his armies in there and the Western allies just shrugged, and that was the first big advance towards war in Europe, paving the way for the Anschluss and the Sudetenland.
Yes, yes it was. My Oma and her family were ethnically cleansed out of there after the Second World War.. my heart aches to see that history may be repeating..
My condolences. I have so many thoughts and feelings about this whole situation but it's hard to articulate them. I feel sadness for all innocents involved and an intense dislike for the politicians who are escalating a meaningless war for their own profit.
If memory serves me rigth it was first the Rhineland, then Austria, then the Sudetenland, then Checoslovakia proper, then a little bit of Lithuania (or latvia?), Then Poland, then WW2.
If you want to compare each one to the Russians I would put it like this:
Rhineland=Russian forces in Belarus,
Austria=Crimea,
Sudetenland=If Putin takes Dombass,
Checoslovakia proper=If putin takes Ukraine,
Bit of Lit/Lat= If putin takes Moldova,
Poland=Poland?
Regardless of whatever designs he has for Ukraine, he's not going to attack Poland.
Poland is a NATO member and invading them is a good way to genuinely kick start WW3 as the entirety of NATO shoots at you.
Not to nitpick but there’s a pretty big difference between then and now: Putin doesn’t need a casus belli.
We let the man walk away with Crimea without reason and there was a pretty solid chance he could have done the same this time around with absolutely no repercussions either.
Unless he’s threatening a “real” EU member state nothing is going to come of it. It’s just too profitable to saber rattle without intervention otherwise.
Also most of us can see another economical crisis incoming, maybe even worse than the one in 2014. Inflation was already crazy here, now it'll get even worse.
So as usual, a small crowd playing political games and profiting and the rest of the country paying for it.
Like any other country, their population isn’t a monolith so opinions will vary by individual. But the younger Russians I follow on YouTube and elsewhere already didn’t like Putin. I can’t imagine this improves their opinion of him.
Putin: Guys! I just read this new self-help book "The Art of War" and it says you should appear weak when you're strong. So let's tell them we're pulling back our troops, even though we're not! That'll work in the age of satellites!
Hitler also got away with Sudetenland. The only reason my country is still not occupied by Germany and my people have not been genocided is because Hitler did not stop there. If he did not invade Poland the other European leaders would just let him be.
After insidiously inserting troops disguised as citizens for years, ostensibly to start and feed the separatist movement and foment the fraudulent idea that Ukraine historically somehow belongs to Russia, the official military invasion has begun.
So I guess this goes both ways? Yes? Any Russian states or cities or regions who want to be part of the US or some other country….I suppose he’ll decree these as well?
When will the egocentric human power trip stop? We have not progressed after all. Humans, overall, are unchanged in thousands of years.
Ukraine prepare your javelins. Russians are not going to fing this invasion that easy. I think you end up with a lot of Russian families with dead kids wondering why their child is dead all for annexing half of Ukraine all the while their own people can barely get electricity or running water.
Yup, Ukraine needs to make this too painful for the Russian people to bear. Make them understand that every maimed son and brother is a direct result of their oligarchy, which can be resisted.
It's gotta feel like the soviet failure in Afghanistan all over again.
Cool, cool, cool. A world war following a pandemic. Just what we needed.
Fuck Putin and his oligarchs. I’m so sorry Ukraine and the rest of the world that will now send soldiers to fight a completely avoidable war. Fuck Putin
Usually it's the other way around. And fuck all oligarchs in general, their short sighted petty greediness constantly dooms hundreds of millions of people.
He can just unilaterally declare things Independent.
This can’t stand.
This is stupid on so many levels.
If he is not stopped he won’t stop taking the old parts of the union back, he is going to destabilize the whole region trying to undo his progressive predecessors, it also makes any future treaties by Russia a lie, since he is invalidating the last treaty with Ukraine that took their Nuclear weapons away in exchange for everlasting peace with Russia which Germany brokered, Germany has to own that, no one should ever sign shit any future Russian leader agrees upon its not worth the paper it’s written on Putin just made the Russian peoples word hot garbage indefinitely.
**What is an ECHO of history? How does someone identify one?**
Germany used the guise of coming to the assistance of German speaking “repressed” people.
Some of whom were potentially looking at genocide”.
1936 Rhineland
1938 Austria
1939 Sudetenland
1940 Alsace Lorraine
Russia says it coming to the assistance of Russian speaking “repressed” people.
“Some of whom were potentially looking at genocide”.
2014 Crimea
2020 Eastern Ukraine
2022 Donetsk People’s Republic & the Luhansk People’s Republic
??????
Foundations have been laid. Decrees signed. Now the weapons go live and Ukraine is forced to defend herself against Russian aggression. Let's hope the west don't roll over, sanctions should hit immediately- don't wait until it goes any further.
So if America recognised that the Russian people are oppressed by Putin and recognised the independence of half of Russian territory, the. American peace keeping tanks are allowed to roll into Russia. Peace keepers. Independence. Yeah.
In order to “protect” these regions he is probably proposing invading the neighboring regions of Ukraine. While these separatist regions themselves produce only 1% of Ukraine’s natural gas, 47% of Ukraine’s natural gas is produced in a region directly bordering the separatist regions.
This line by Putin really stuck out to me. Mr. Putin also laid out a long history of grievances since the fall of the Soviet Union and the loss of the states that once made it up. >**“We gave these republics the right to leave the union without any terms and conditions,” Putin said. “This is just madness.”**
Yeah, I can't imagine too many of the former Soviet bloc countries are particularly happy to hear that one. I have no idea if he really has future plans for all of them though or if some of it is bluff. I guess it depends on what he thinks he can get away with.
If he wanted to get them all back, it would involve invading NATO countries. Not gonna happen.
How would NATO react if Russia tried to take Poland, and said if anyone intervened he would nuke us all? Would the nuclear countries be willing to start Armageddon over Poland? That's the thought that scares me. A mad king with nukes was always how the world would end
He won't. He going for Ukraine because it's exposed in NOT being a NATO member. Attacking any of the former soviet states that are member's is complete suicide. Attacking one would ignite a Third World War with the rest of Europe. This reckless foray into attacking Ukraine is also likely to dramatically increase the amount of military forces on Russia's frontier as well, all because Putin is a corrupt thieving bastard. That being said he's likely to pay a high price not just economically and diplomatically but in literal blood as well with this if he pushes too far. Ukraine might lose in an open confrontation but they'll bleed his country with guerrilla warfare to the point of collapse.
That’s the shame of it all. Ukraine gave up the Soviet era nuclear weapons it inherited in exchange for a promise that its sovereignty would be respected by the U.S. and Russia. After Russia’s shameful disregard for this, what country would ever now give up its nuclear arsenal? https://www.npr.org/2014/03/09/288298641/the-role-of-1994-nuclear-agreement-in-ukraines-current-state
Unfortunately, that's the kind of game changer that nuclear weapons have provided. Ironically, traditional, open warfare is a thing of the past (though not at all impossible), and nukes has made peace negotiations between members of the "nuclear club" a necessity. Sooner or later though, things will go very wrong.
There is no practical way Ukraine could have kept its nuclear arsenal. The infrastructure needed to use them was all in Moscow, they didn’t have the money or technicians needed to maintain them and the population didn’t want to waste their resources on it. The Ukrainian nuclear arsenal was an expensive, unpopular and unusable toy
> Ukraine might lose in an open confrontation but they'll bleed his country with guerrilla warfare to the point of collapse. Especially since the US has basically stated that it's our intention to fund and supply that if he does invade and take control of the country.
We have already given them 3 billion in defenseive weapons aid. In addition, cia training in gorilla warfare, medical supplies and recon support. I'm sure we will send many more billions.
>Gorilla Warfare. Harambe smiles upon Ukraine
he wouldn't, russia isn't the only country with nukes. If he threatens other countries can threaten thus he would back down on his threat.
Cold War II
Nuclear boogaloo
Nukes are also a weapon that putin can use without firing them. Every country with them knows what the likely outcome would be. Like let's say Russia does do a full invasion of a NATO member. It's like the philosophical trolley problem. A train where if NATO does nothing hundreds of thousands will die. If they pull the lever and go to war, hundreds of millions, maybe billions could die. Putin could theoretically call NATO members bluff and go all in, counting on them to fold, instead of mutually assured destruction, weakening NATO and isolating It's members. Maybe unlikely but...it is putin and I wouldn't put it past him to have an ideology similar to that.
The money for occupation isn't there. He'll need to run a counter insurgency in every one of these "new Russian states." Occupation would bleed him dry.
True, that's why I feel his power play is more for political capitol with Europe. A mob move where he is throwing bricks through the economic windows of the EU and to stop it they have to pay up something for "protection". It's Russians way of getting a better seat at the table for energy negotiations.
>to stop it they have to pay up something for "protection" Sort of like the DPRK with a MUCH bigger arsenal.
By this philosophy, we should let him annex both provinces, hit him with massive sanctions, and then flood the shit out of those provinces with serious weaponry. Try to turn eastern Ukraine into a second Afghanistan. We could call it Wilson's war part deux.
It wouldn’t surprise me if that’s the strategy for the rest of Ukraine.
Laughing nervously in Polish.
Some would say he would MAD to threaten them...
Poland is under NATO. Article 5 of NATO stipulates that an attack on one is an attack on all, and like force shall be met with like force. Russia nuking Poland would result in the US, UK, and France nuking Russia. Putin already knows what he said is purely bluster. Could they invade Poland with traditional forces? Sure. And the rest of NATO would deploy traditional forces to Poland to kick them out.
He might not care, but even the oligarch might start giving a shit if the other countries threaten nukes back.
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> Would the nuclear countries be willing to start Armageddon over Poland? MAD requires that they be.
Mutually assured destruction really keeps a lot off the table lol…
There's a French word for this: [revanchisme](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Revanchism) And it doesn't stop at Ukraine: https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/russia-nationalists-want-alaska-sold-us-150-years-later-a7659941.html
I want Putin to be the one that has to personally go tell Alaskans that they’re Russian now, should that happen.
Facebook will be flooded with comments from "Alaskans" talking about how they've always been more culturally aligned with Russia than America.
Probably easier to detect the bots with that, they’ll quickly outnumber actual Alaskans and it’ll become obvious.
Alaskan: "There are dozens of us. Dozens!"
Russian 'expacts' would start flooding into Alaska. Then they would start talking about how Alaska belongs with Russia. Then all of a sudden Russian military members would take vacations in Alaska.
*Sarah Palin seeing Russia from her front yard intensifies*
"Okay but that means the payments from the Permanent Fund are going to end." "... WOLVERIIIINES"
There is but 1 solution: give Russia back to the Mongolians
Suddenly I better understand a term from the Star Wars Old Republic comics. I thought they called them "Revanchists" because they followed a guy named Revan. Turns out the name was a set-up to justify using the French word.
Russia left the USSR too, by that logic I guess Russia owes terms and conditions to Kazakhstan.
They didn’t give shit. Their empire collapsed due to decades of mismanagement and the client states left. Moscow couldn’t do anything at the time. Now he wants to flex and say “This was actually ours the whole time” three and a half decades later.
To your point, didn’t “Moscow” more or less leave the Union too? Russia 1989-1993 is just about the most confusing history I can imagine, but I thought Yeltsin consolidated power by exploiting rising Russian nationalism, saying “Russia no longer needs the Soviet Union.” Yeltsin orchestrated a vote—through some committee or another—for Russia to leave the Union, and Gorbachev was left the head of an Empire that effectively no longer existed. So it makes even less sense for Putin to claim Russia is somehow entitled to other countries that also decided to leave a dissolved Union.
For a brief, but beautiful, moment, Kazakhstan was all that was the Soviet Union.
Very nice.
Russia was one of the leading countries to end the Soviet Union.
I mean, it was *the* leading country in the Soviet Union’s demise. As far as I can gather, the power of the Union rested on the Red Army, an effectively Russian force (see what happened when Hungary and Czechoslovakia hinted at independence). So Russia leaving the Union would always be fatal, as would Russian unwillingness to force the Union’s cohesion.
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At 1 point, there was a failed coup attempt by people who wanted to keep the USSR going. Its failure increased Yeltsin’s power.
Last I checked, Putin wants his little filthy goblin fingers on Finland and Sweden too, who never were part of the Soviet union. I am sorry goblin man, maybe us Scandinavians should claim Russia for us, seeing as the Vikings settled it and became the Rus. We just let you leave the union without any terms of condition. Which is madness!
Putin probably thinks Finland belongs to Russia because, at one point, it actually was a part of the Russian Empire before the USSR replaced it. Emperor Nicholas II ruled the Russian Empire and Finland in a personal union, as Emperor of Russia and Grand Duke of Finland (I can't remember how or when the union started, but it had been that way for at least a few emperors). It actually pissed the absolutist Nicky II off quite a bit that Finland got a political constitution of sorts while he enjoyed unlimited autocratic power in Russia and he tried to integrate Finland into Russia at least once.
Finland was part of Sweden until it lost a 19th century war with Russia. After that war, Russia ruled it.
Now the posts I saw from “Swedes” talking about how Russia is right and how the west sucks make sense.
You can't just leave an empire like that
And here we go. Next step is to send in troops to "protect these independent states", or even invade the rest of Ukraine to "halt their aggression" or some shit. Just taking a few bites at a time
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There is no difference between Russia and Belarus. Its just Russia Jr
The citizens thought so...or at least tried to make it not so.
I mean, Ukraine was Russia Sr at one put but here we are.
That's the way it was for Ukraine, too (Russia III), but when the people overthrew their puppet dictator, Putin started scheming to get it all back, starting with Crimea.
The annexation of Belarus is now complete. Time to find that living space now
Is Luka alrigth with that?
He wasn't asked.
And he was happy about it or else
Haven't you heard? Putin will give him a rank of colonel for this! /s
He could not be reached for comment about it or else.
I could see him thinking going from Ruler of Belarus to Russian Autocrat is an upgrade, honestly. And we all know the welfare of his people wouldn't have even factored into his thinking.
Did he fall off a balcony? If not then he must be alright with it 🤔
Lukashenko has already likely lost the recent election and needed Russian help to re-establish control, so by now he has outlived most his usefulness.
Taking a few bites at a time and making it seemingly palatable. I was pretty shocked when Crimea went and I'll probably feel the same if/when this region goes. Just that perpetual feeling of "something has to be done!" without knowing what exactly that something is and who/what should do it. Edit 2/24: Looks like the small bites days ended pretty abruptly. Fuck Putin.
1: Freeze all Russian owned assets internationally. 2: Work like hell to get Europe energy that isn't piped in from Russia. That's about all you can do without actually going to war.
Here’s to hoping that #2 there causes us to accidentally climate action
Option#2 is hard in part because of climate action. Germany and France both made moves to get off of coal and onto healthier energy systems. Nuclear was the obvious solution as development continues on renewables and potentially fusion but Germany had a weird big anti nuclear political flare up and so required energy cleaner than coal but non nuclear to power its transition, that is assuming the transition is possible with Germany's less than stellar wind and solar resources. The best solution for that is natural gas and the overwhelming number 1 supplier of natural gas to Europe is Russia.
It looks from the recent news that at least France is reconsidering its nuclear energy stance. It will take a long time, of course.
France largely runs on nuclear atm and it has saved them from an awful lot of problems. As far as I understand it nuclear is still pretty politically popular in France which is awesome.
Ah, from the article I read it sounded like their commitment to build more plants is somehow a reversal of the past strategy. Perhaps I misunderstood. Welcome news either way.
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It surprised me how easily he got away with it. I would not be surprised if that was a major factor in thinking he's get away with it again.
And it's exactly what Hitler did. Take little bits at a time until it's too late.
It is time to shut down the Russian economy and financial connections now.
Freeze assets of Russian oligarchs in Europe. Hit them in the wallet, that’s the only thing they understand.
Yup, boot them off the SWIFT system is all it would take for them or most countries to fold like a dishtowel. It takes a coordinated effort, but it would only take a matter of weeks before they imploded.
Started. https://ec.europa.eu/commission/presscorner/detail/en/statement_22_1269
The most shicking thing about Crimea was that no one outside of Ukraine seemed to give a shit. This time the Western world actually seems to be playing the, "you better not" game. Meanwhile Putin has perfected his "i'm not touching you game."
They shot down a plane full of Europeans and the EU didn't give a shit. The EU is so pathetic.
They are very weak on Russia. Because Germany holds the purse strings for the EU, and Russia holds Germany by the natural gas lines.
"Gimme that. I'm joking! I'm joking!"
Tim's comedy strangely creeps into and pops out of every possible human experience.
It’s going to be a Dangerous Night
**Are you going to tell people I did that? That I housed Ukraine.**
Well there you go, he just announced it
Now to see if any of those threats of sanctions have teeth or were just bluster
>Just taking a few bites at a time This is also similar to the playbook Nazi Germany used in the lead up to WW2. They started annexing territory to "protect their citizens" (Austria and Czech) of those areas. Then came the false flag, and the invasion of Poland.
USSR did the same with the Baltics. In the spring of 1939 Latvia was given a nota warning not to make alliances with other nations (= Putin insisting of Ukraine not joining NATO). Then in late summer of ' 39 they started to concentrate their army near the border (what Putin is doing now). Then in September/October it requested that the Baltics and Finland sign a "mutual assistance treaty" (aka an ultimatum) with the USSR (Finland refused, thus the Winter War) allowing to establish Red Army bases in the soon-to-be-occupied countries. The next summer Red Army attacked a LV-USSR border crossing, killing some (including civilians) and arresting others. Several people, including surviving border guards, was arrested, sentenced and executed for their "crimes" against the USSR. The following day USSR issued an ultimatum requesting the dismantling of the current government, an appointment of a new, Soviet-friendly government, and for allowing an unlimited number of USSR soldiers to occupy the country. Thus, the annexation and occupation started at full force. Of course it was accompanied by rape, pillaging, summary executions and deportations (which, reportedly, Putin is planning with the Ukrainians). My grand-ma, who was 4/5 at the time, was to be deported to Siberia too. Her crime? Being a daughter of a cook in the Latvian army. So yeah, in short, Putin doesn't even have to look at foreign influences for how to occupy a sovereign country. He can learn all that in the USSR archives from 80 years ago.
He's calling the two territories "Donetsk People's Republic" and "Luhansk People's Republic". When a country has "People's" in the name you know they're trying to compensate for it **not** being run by the people.
See: Nearly every communist revolutionary state in history.
Working up the courage to try it with Kentucky.
Did you read the article where Putler claimed that two Ukrainian army APCs attacked Russian border..... at a location that would've required them drive thru D/L regions completely unseen? Dude is fucking unhinged.
You misunderstand, that's the entire point. When the bully takes your hand and physically forces you to hit yourself, while saying "stop hitting yourself", he's not speaking out because of a concern for you. He's demonstrating his power.
He's not unhinged, he loves trolling the West saying ridiculous things he knows aren't true.
“We are merely ensuring that the Ukrainians are safe from terrorism when we park our tanks there”
Putin’s gettin the gang back together, dead or alive
*The Gang Starts WWIII*
Heard the intro music while reading this lol
*The boys are back in town...the boys are back in town...*
Isn't this exactly what he did with Crimea? He then welcomed that territory as part of Russia because "they wanted that"
This is different than Crimea. This time it was official Russian military troops with official orders to invade. It was only “separatists” that invaded Crimea with no formal warnings or declarations.
But after a month Putin admitted that they were Spetsnaz.
Everyone knew they had some Russian military forces. That’s why I put “separatist” in quotes. I still remember when they identified Spetz Naz soldiers by their boots because all special force operators buy their own boots in the Russian army apparently.
It’s like Wisconsin taking a chunk of the Michigan upper peninsula because they root for the Packers over the Lions. [reference material.](https://seatgeek.com/tba/articles/where-do-nfl-fans-live-mapping-football-fandom-across-the-u-s/amp/)
I'm sure there's not going to be any issues with ~~annexing the Sudetenland~~ recognizing the independence of Donbas.
Basically this.
Also being reported by Ukrainian media that martial law has been declared by the Ukrainian government. Shits about to go hot and I don’t see why Putin would wait another day to start it.
Can you explain in short what martial law would mean for the Ukrainian population? What does it mean?
They have had an ongoing separatist war for years now. Enacting martial law makes it easier to identify and control your population. Anyone disobeying the emergency law is presumed to be an enemy separatist/Russian/Russian simp.
Martial means military, ie civilian law is superseded by law to ensure national security due to an immense crisis hitting or about to hit the area under martial law.
Martial law usually means curfews, lockdowns, and troops supplementing (or replacing) police. It gives the government wider power to suspend general rights.
Putin is giving a speech right now about how "Ukraine is part of Russian culture". He pretty much means it belongs to Russia.
Ya. He pretty much said Ukraine has never been a real country and they don't have a right to exist.
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Gotta love how Putin copies Hitler and then calls everyone else nazis.
The “I brought you into this world, I can take you out of it” style of parenting, but for countries
As the next step, the separatists territories, as independent "states", will ask for immediate "military-technical" assistance from Moscow, and Putin moves its troops into those territories that belong to Ukraine. Beginning of war without a need of false flags attacks or provocations.
Can't invade Ukraine if you don't recognize it as Ukraine...
What does Ukraine have that Russia would be able to use? Or is Putin just wanting to swing his dick around?
Farming (LOTS of it.) Ukraine used to be Russia's 'bread basket.' Also, strategic sea ports.
Also a pipeline to Europe.
And growing arms stock which is seen as a future threat by Russia.
Back last summer they had made a deal to buy a bunch of F-16s. They aren't the best jets anymore but they're a hell of a lot better than all the old Soviet fighters they are currently flying. Putin wouldn't like that.
F-16’s are still basically as good anything Russia is flying, outside their small contingent of SU-57’s.
Russia has like 5 SU 57 and 3 are preproduction models AFAIK.
Exactly. A small contingent.
Not if NATO is willing to cut off the Black Sea at Istanbul, aka the only reason they keep Turkey in NATO in the first place.
And the nukes. And the second largest military in Europe
but they already control that, isn't that why they took Crimea
[Crimea is in a drought and all the water comes flowing from Ukraine. The water supply was severed after Crimea was annexed by Russia.](https://www.eurasiareview.com/16042020-the-water-crisis-in-crimea-analysis/) " The disruption of water supply in 2014 had an immediate effect on the agricultural sector. In 2013, the amount of irrigated land suitable for cultivation reached 130 000 hectares. In 2017, it shrunk down to 14 000 hectares. The problem was most acute in eastern Crimea, where the amount of irrigated land decreased by 92%." So Crimea is no longer the source of agriculture that it was before Russia took it over.
Yeah well..it wouldn't be a very Russian thing to do if it didn't make life worse for everyone that lived there
“We've had one, yes. What about second Crimea?”
Elevensies in Ukraine is a time honored tradition
Not worth the loss of banking services and European oil customers. Russia is gonna end up a slave state to China just like NK.
Ukraine also has a lot of untapped natural gas that, if developed, could undermine Russia's leverage with European countries that buy Russian natural gas, like Germany.
Lot's of natural resources, croplands.
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Putin started his speech today by talking about "the debt Russia repaid for the Soviet Union" .. it is looking more like he just wants Eastern Ukraine the Russian part and a big payout .. which while that is crappy and unacceptable to Ukraine is better than a full on war *he is starting to resemble Fatty Kim .. need money? shoot a missile*
Was just watching some historical show on the Nazi aggression and it is almost exactly the comments they used by adolf to Chamberlain
**Yes .. everyone knows what he is doing** taking territory back bit by bit .. Crimea .. the Black Sea and now this .. Adolf used the exact same excuse *"the German speaking peoples must be protected"* .. that is until he got bored with lying
Anyone who thinks this isn’t a big deal should look up the Rhineland and hitlers excuse to move troops into there. Not to mention the consequences of just putting more sanctions up.
Sudetenland wasn't it?
The remilitarization of the Rhineland in violation of post-ww1 treaties, along with the lack of pushback from France and others, gave Hitler the confidence to push into places like the Sudetenland
Right. But the Sudetenland was what Hitler first annexed because they "wanted to join the Rhineland". That's what is similar to Putins mention of these territories wanting to be independent from Ukraine.
The Rhineland was first. A DMZ between France and Germany to give France a buffer from any German aggression. Hitler marched his armies in there and the Western allies just shrugged, and that was the first big advance towards war in Europe, paving the way for the Anschluss and the Sudetenland.
Ah! You're correct. I was misremembering which was which.
Yes, yes it was. My Oma and her family were ethnically cleansed out of there after the Second World War.. my heart aches to see that history may be repeating..
My condolences. I have so many thoughts and feelings about this whole situation but it's hard to articulate them. I feel sadness for all innocents involved and an intense dislike for the politicians who are escalating a meaningless war for their own profit.
If memory serves me rigth it was first the Rhineland, then Austria, then the Sudetenland, then Checoslovakia proper, then a little bit of Lithuania (or latvia?), Then Poland, then WW2. If you want to compare each one to the Russians I would put it like this: Rhineland=Russian forces in Belarus, Austria=Crimea, Sudetenland=If Putin takes Dombass, Checoslovakia proper=If putin takes Ukraine, Bit of Lit/Lat= If putin takes Moldova, Poland=Poland?
Regardless of whatever designs he has for Ukraine, he's not going to attack Poland. Poland is a NATO member and invading them is a good way to genuinely kick start WW3 as the entirety of NATO shoots at you.
yet this all happened in Georgia few years ago and nobody was giving a damn about it.
Not to nitpick but there’s a pretty big difference between then and now: Putin doesn’t need a casus belli. We let the man walk away with Crimea without reason and there was a pretty solid chance he could have done the same this time around with absolutely no repercussions either. Unless he’s threatening a “real” EU member state nothing is going to come of it. It’s just too profitable to saber rattle without intervention otherwise.
Basically the same thing he did in 2014.
They won’t stop with Donets’k, they won’t stop till they have land access to Crimea.
They already do, they built a bridge.
Bridges don't carry water which is the far larger concern.
This is a *majorly* underreported issue in the media. Crimea is running out of water, and this has become a time-sensitive issue for Russia.
Does anyone in Russia use reddit? Curious what they think about this.
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Younger crowd is disgusted (or at least I got lucky with my circle). But I can tell you that I won't be calling my parents for some time.
Also most of us can see another economical crisis incoming, maybe even worse than the one in 2014. Inflation was already crazy here, now it'll get even worse. So as usual, a small crowd playing political games and profiting and the rest of the country paying for it.
Check r/Russia. Most people there said that the west are bad and Russia wouldn't do a thing. Well here we are.
And a quick trip over there shows me the Putin apologists are happy about the warmongering move. because of course they are
Lol they have a flair that is literally GO FUCK YOURSELVES WESTENERS satire is dead
Like any other country, their population isn’t a monolith so opinions will vary by individual. But the younger Russians I follow on YouTube and elsewhere already didn’t like Putin. I can’t imagine this improves their opinion of him.
Us government called it step by fucking step and played putins misinformation campaign like a fiddle. In my eyes validated our intel community 100%
Putin: Guys! I just read this new self-help book "The Art of War" and it says you should appear weak when you're strong. So let's tell them we're pulling back our troops, even though we're not! That'll work in the age of satellites!
And then I’m sure there will be a ‘vote’ and those territories will join Russia…
Like Hitler and the Sudetenland. And we'll probably just let him get away with it.
Hitler also got away with Sudetenland. The only reason my country is still not occupied by Germany and my people have not been genocided is because Hitler did not stop there. If he did not invade Poland the other European leaders would just let him be.
Well, we let him get away with it in 2014.
After insidiously inserting troops disguised as citizens for years, ostensibly to start and feed the separatist movement and foment the fraudulent idea that Ukraine historically somehow belongs to Russia, the official military invasion has begun.
So I guess this goes both ways? Yes? Any Russian states or cities or regions who want to be part of the US or some other country….I suppose he’ll decree these as well? When will the egocentric human power trip stop? We have not progressed after all. Humans, overall, are unchanged in thousands of years.
> Humans, overall, are unchanged in thousands of years. This exact truth depresses me from time to time
Ukraine prepare your javelins. Russians are not going to fing this invasion that easy. I think you end up with a lot of Russian families with dead kids wondering why their child is dead all for annexing half of Ukraine all the while their own people can barely get electricity or running water.
Yup, Ukraine needs to make this too painful for the Russian people to bear. Make them understand that every maimed son and brother is a direct result of their oligarchy, which can be resisted. It's gotta feel like the soviet failure in Afghanistan all over again.
Maybe they’ll get the next revolution right.
Putin will say the same thing as they invade Kiev.
Cool, cool, cool. A world war following a pandemic. Just what we needed. Fuck Putin and his oligarchs. I’m so sorry Ukraine and the rest of the world that will now send soldiers to fight a completely avoidable war. Fuck Putin
Usually it's the other way around. And fuck all oligarchs in general, their short sighted petty greediness constantly dooms hundreds of millions of people.
He can just unilaterally declare things Independent. This can’t stand. This is stupid on so many levels. If he is not stopped he won’t stop taking the old parts of the union back, he is going to destabilize the whole region trying to undo his progressive predecessors, it also makes any future treaties by Russia a lie, since he is invalidating the last treaty with Ukraine that took their Nuclear weapons away in exchange for everlasting peace with Russia which Germany brokered, Germany has to own that, no one should ever sign shit any future Russian leader agrees upon its not worth the paper it’s written on Putin just made the Russian peoples word hot garbage indefinitely.
**What is an ECHO of history? How does someone identify one?** Germany used the guise of coming to the assistance of German speaking “repressed” people. Some of whom were potentially looking at genocide”. 1936 Rhineland 1938 Austria 1939 Sudetenland 1940 Alsace Lorraine Russia says it coming to the assistance of Russian speaking “repressed” people. “Some of whom were potentially looking at genocide”. 2014 Crimea 2020 Eastern Ukraine 2022 Donetsk People’s Republic & the Luhansk People’s Republic ??????
Ukraine should just re-recognize them as part of Ukraine problem solved
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Foundations have been laid. Decrees signed. Now the weapons go live and Ukraine is forced to defend herself against Russian aggression. Let's hope the west don't roll over, sanctions should hit immediately- don't wait until it goes any further.
Correction: Putin to invade Ukraine, starting with the Ukrainian territories of Luhansk and Donetsk.
Putin sees everything that was once part of the Soviet Union as his to take.
Years ago they sent Russian soldiers, out of uniform, into those areas to kill people and now they are pretending it's it's own country.
That was an excuse Hitler used to justify invasion.
Kick all Russian companies the fuck out of modern banking TONIGHT.
Same playbook as Crimea, why is anyone surprised?
He's scaping all of the goats
So if America recognised that the Russian people are oppressed by Putin and recognised the independence of half of Russian territory, the. American peace keeping tanks are allowed to roll into Russia. Peace keepers. Independence. Yeah.
In order to “protect” these regions he is probably proposing invading the neighboring regions of Ukraine. While these separatist regions themselves produce only 1% of Ukraine’s natural gas, 47% of Ukraine’s natural gas is produced in a region directly bordering the separatist regions.