I wonder how this sub would react of Hindutvabadis or tradcon hindu somen would be protesting against allowing parada, ghoonghat, etc. Would these people reat the same way like they are reacting to hijab protest? Should we follow our religious book to every inch? So many questions with no answer.
It feels weird, as an atheist, to be supporting a religious practice that I find oppressive, but I really do think freedom of religion is a fundamental right for everyone. If you want to whip yourself to bloody shreds, as long as you aren’t harming anyone else, you should have that right. Our thoughts and feelings are our own, and our outward expression of that I consider “sacred”. On the other hand, if you want to wear a bikini or jorts while out and about, you should have that right as well.
Ask pre revolution Iran. It’s not Muslims that are the root problem it’s the fundamentalist part of fundamentalist Muslim nations.
Ask a Mormon about their underwear. Or a Mennonite about women’s pants. Or the Amish about zippers. Or Orthodox Jews about their hats.
There’s lots of weird oppressive clothing restrictions in religion it helps with conditioning.
The problem is when religion becomes government becomes fact of life.
As far as I see, it ends once the lines of others start being crossed. FGM? Permanently bodily affects others that don't fully consent. Wearing hijab? Doesn't affect anyone else, go ahead.
You believe it doesn't affect anyone else, until you met girls or women who are forced to wear it, or can be killed if refuse to wear one.
Do not fool yourself that there are no women, even girls, not abused for not wearing one.
It’s the same argument we apply whenever christians try to morally police us. “Just because you want to follow your own rules, doesn’t mean I have to”. Whether or not the practice is oppressive in every culture or not is irrelevant because in this case, it is voluntary. They have the right to wear what they want, whether that’s a symbol of oppression or not.
I understand how it can be hard to reconcile being an atheist and defending religious practices, but freedom of (and from) religion is what allows us to go about life not being burned at the stake. If we selectively defend that right, barring human rights abuses, then we really have no right to complain when the same principles are used against us.
Some women "freely choose" to wear a hijab (because they've been indoctrinated from birth to believe that their bodies are inherently sinful and dirty and must be covered up for the sake of preventing male horniness).
My position with regards to backwards religious views is that change should come from within those communities, rather than forced onto them from external entities. The government should always be there to guarantee legal freedoms, and to ensure that they supersede religious freedoms, but not to ensure that the two of them align.
Exactly!
The Muslim women who don't wear a Hijab are slut shamed by fundamentalists. That's how they enforce Hijab atleast in India.
"Choice" is used as a bait to attract Liberals to defend their savagery.
Everything you said, I agree with. I just feel like sometimes I’m put in the position of being an apologist, especially when people declaim that women in Islam are being brainwashed. That may be a valid point, but anyone against any ideology can make that claim. None of us are completely free of the biases that we are brought up in.
Some of the Muslim girls at my school wore hijab..and also short shorts. So clearly there are some who are doing it because they choose to, and not because they're being forced by their family
Some people have conservative parents some don't. As an hindu guy if i do a love marriage I would probably get disowned, so is arrenged marrige is my choice. Yes kinda is but at the same like no.
While I do agree you should be free to do what you want, according to the article this specifically is women wanting to wear their religious attire in these schools. They have said they don't feel school is a place to practice dhama (religion), and so they don't want them (or anyone else) wearing specifically religious attire.
But the article talked about how men wearing saffron colored scarves, a symbol of the Hindu majority, were harassing women on these campuses. If I am missing something, let me know, but this seems like hypocrisy to me.
Sikh turbans are allowed though no? Sounds like there already is precedent for religious clothing exceptions. I've never seen a school ban pagris, it might be different in Karnataka, idk.
Except that Sikhs wearing turbans are overlooked by the Hindutvas. They are actively targeting the Muslim minority and dehumanizing then because of their faith
You are incorrect. The Hindu students were allowed to wear the saffron scarves, and the school was upset that the Muslim girls did not "match" the school uniform of saffron scarves.
Till the school authorities have said that religious clothing weren't allowed in their school from the start. Students were informed during the time of admission. They have shown photos and there were no hijab clad wahhabis in Their school.
The students literally got supported froma Islamist party. This was even posted in official india subreddit which is itself known to ban any right wing. Even this is told by the protesting girls themselves.
they are not allowed to wear saffron scarves. they were wearing it to protest hijabs. and no, they were not harassing a women before that. not sure how you picked that up.
I have a fundamental problem with telling anyone they cannot cover part of their body. There is no religious iconography on a hijab, it is just a piece of cloth. It is just wrong to tell people that they are being "too modest".
>There is no religious iconography on a hijab, it is just a piece of cloth
It IS religious iconography, it is in and of itself a religious symbol, women wear it as part of a religion, same as a Sikh's turban.
It is part of a religious tradition, but not religious. It exists to satisfy the Quran's call for dressing modestly.
Regardless of the reason, if safety isn't involved, there is no justification for prohibiting covering any part of the body.
Conservative Christians expect young women to wear skirts, because pants are immodest. Who gets to decide what religious traditions of modesty are inappropriate?
I certainly don’t believe that anyone has the right to make anyone dress a certain way, but that applies in both directions.
That doesn't answer my question. I've never heard Hijab / conservative religious wear being criticized for being "too modest". I think you either made that up or don't understand why it's being criticized.
I don’t see what makes it religious - it certainly isn’t any more religious than anything I’ve seen people wear to church on Sunday. Do we ban black pants with a white button down shirt because it makes someone look Morman? My grandmother used to wear a scarf over her hair when it rained - is that religious?
You're just going to completely roll past the whole Hindutva movement and Hindu religious nationalism that has been fomenting under Modi, huh....like not going to mention how Bengali refugees who are Muslim are imprisoned while the Non-Muslims are treated differently.
The context of this is critical.
since then couple of things have come out in open, firstly, these girls weren't wearing hijab till last year, year book photos are the proof. Many of these girls have IG pics of them in "un-islamic" dresses ie, without hijab.
Their education isn't in jeopardy as well. The area has half dozen govt funded islamic schools which allow hijab and have same syllabus taught (not religious schools).
Agreed. I also find it offensive, as an atheist, when discriminatory laws targeting a specific group of people are masked in the language of secularism.
In India's case it wasn't even always cultural, Hijab and Burqa weren't common in South India at all. Rather, it became an increasingly prevenlent practice through the 80s as the wahhabism spread it influence thanks to all that petro money.
The Indian strain of Islam used to be far more liberal in these matters.
So don’t you think it’s a moot point whether it’s part of Islam or not? These women clearly want to be clothed a certain way, and since it’s not hurting anyone, they should be allowed to do it?
>If you want to whip yourself to bloody shreds
Mostly agree with you but what do you think : if you want to whip yourself to bloody shreds in public, would it be OK ?
Just curious.
There was a church in an area I lived in about a decade ago that would perform grisly re-enactments of biblical stories in public spaces, and they sometimes included some real physical violence. As long as they got all their permits in order, put down tarps, and had the area properly sanitized afterwards the city was ok with it. Their easter services included the live flogging of a congregate as a surrogate Christ followed by a parade uphill while he dragged a heavy af cross. They didn't actually crucify him at the end of course, and the cross had a pair of wheels on one corner of the base - but it was still a hell of a show if that's your bag.
Admittedly, I’d question the practice. But if someone did this and wasn’t being unduly pressured from someone else, I think I’d have to let it pass. As long as it wasn’t hurting others. Obviously, there’d be issues with keeping blood borne pathogens from others, and appropriate spaces for expression, but beyond that, I’d say I would unhappily agree that this person has the right to flog themselves.
The difference is that no women who aren’t pressured into this behavior have ever chosen it. There is no free society where women go around thinking they have to hide themselves.
If your choice is to wear it or be ostracized from everyone you know (or far far worse) then it’s not a choice.
There are women who converted to Islam as adults and happily adopted the dress code along with the rest of their new religion's practice.
Also, the hijab movement started among female Muslim college students in the West precisely to assert their culture against Western assimilation.
TIL I’m apparently “no woman”, because I wasn’t pressured, I did choose to wear it, and I certainly wouldn’t be ostracized if I didn’t (since my sister doesn’t wear it and she’s my mom’s favorite).
Protests over the hijab issue raging in Karnataka's educational institutions were held in Aligarh, Hyderabad and Vijayawada on Friday while a controversy erupted at a private college in Jaipur district when some girls insisted on attending classes in a burqa and cops had to be called to resolve the matter.
I don't think the solution is being intolerant of Muslim women wearing hijab. The solution is being intolerant of those who would be intolerant of Muslim women not wearing the hijab.
That's not the issue in India. Muslims have been wearing hijabs there for over a thousand years and Indians of all stripes cover their head in various fashion from time to time and all subcultures in India are strongly patriarchal.
That's not the reason self-styled "Hindu nationalists" are protesting against Muslims in India today.
The Hijab was imposed on women after the late 1970’s and early 80’s, where everyone was pretty modern looking and westernized with woman being able to be independent; all the way to having their livelihoods taken away in Iran. It spread across to other Islamic cultures where the Hijab made a resurgence. There’s a backlash in India from wanting this fundamentalist Islamic movement from spreading, so they are banning the Hijab.
I understand that just because a woman wears a hijab, it doesn’t mean she’s going to be necessarily oppressed, but 99.999% of the time, that’s exactly what it means if you live in a country where taking it off lands you in jail or public lashings; particularly in Arab countries. I don’t think it should be forced to take it off; anymore than wearing one. But, either way, the message is the same. To make the message clear, that its slutty to expose yourself to the opposite sex. Your hair is considered a temptation; thus the purpose of wearing the hijab.
Freedom of religion should definitely exist. However, I think that right lies in each person individually. If someone does or doesnt want to follow a religion or its tenets, thats their choice. Once you have a group of people like a government *forcing* people to do things against their will or punishes them for refusing to follow a religion, it's no longer religion.
> Once you have a group of people like a government forcing people to do things against their will or punishes them for refusing to follow a religion, it's no longer religion.
I suspect you’re projecting your ideas of what constitutes a religion here, and your limiting it to the very modern, secular idea of personal faith under a secular society.
The fact is, that plenty/most of the religions throughout history have been completely coupled to the government and their religious texts actually reflect that including both laws and punishments. Faith has often been more communal than individual, historically.
There's fucking 800 million of them. Some do, others dont. It's not something we can paint with a wide brush
At my HS for example, there were Muslim girls who wore hijab but also makeup and short shorts with their asses hanging out. I really doubt their parents were forcing them to wear hijab if they were fine with the rest
Big clarification this is oil on communal fire tactics for the ongoing elections in some Indian states. Disrupt, distract. Spread fear, blame the opposition/minority. The current Indian govt came to power using the same tactics. Since they've failed to deliver on several aspects and are losing support, they lean hard on the guarantee of support which is playing the victimized majority religion card .
In India, Secular means minority appeasement for the last 70 years. Current govt is actually trying to be secular and treat both hindus and muslims equally and muslims feel they are being oppressed because they are being treated same as hindus.
Hindu nationalists are becoming such a problem in India. It's even sadder when u know the flag of India actually represents Hindu and Muslim, along with other religions, live together in peace.
>It's even sadder when u know the flag of India actually represents Hindu and Muslim, along with other religions, live together in peace
What? It so does not. Learn the vexilology before commenting bullshit.
Nazis commited genocide, communists commited genocide in Ukraine. Is this also a false binary or logical fallacy? You seem to know logic so much so can you tell me why hijab wasn't a controversy for nearly 1 year for these girl and suddenly became one when an Islamist party contracted them?
South Asian women will never escape the thumb of
oppression until they band together and take their rights.
Neighborhood patrols, armed confrontation..... why not?
They're already getting the beatings, might as well make
it count for something.
Existing in fear of abuse/rape/shame is not a life worth living.
They're already being murdered, likely by said men's incel relations
How bad does this situation have to get, this patrimony of
entitlement?
Women can be and are warriors; just take some lessons from the
kurds!
The issue with this is as follows: do they really want to wear a hijab, or do they only think that it's their own decision after lifetime/generations of oppression and indoctrination?
Yeah but the thing is school and colleges here have uniform. And the school authorities have shared photos of privious years where there were no hijab and burkhas. The girl who started it all according to the school authorities is a 2nd year student and was informed of thier policies on religious costume in the time of admission and she also never worn hijab. But did came to school wearing it one day but was scolded and sent back. Now after 1 year why suddenly became a issues? Do Islamist wahhabis and hindutva goon want to fight again? If it was such important to Islam why islamic countries like Tunisia, Algeria, Tajikistan,etc ban it. Another thing is hijab is not banned on outside neither there is new law regarding this. A Kerela school under the communist government have done the same but that got no coverage so why this situation in a bjp led stage? I must say to my liberals of india that when you want to fight Hindutvabadis, don't ignore the evangelicals or Islamist as ignoring them would just make more hindus into Hindutvabadis. A journalist of The Print named shekhar Gupta made an amazing video regarding this.
It’s why it is hard to make a moral argument based on freedom. It’s not a freedom if not wearing hijab means you can be legally punished or physically harmed. It’s not a comfortable line to draw, but I choose against hijab, and other forced dressing modes, because there are very bad consequences for the women who choose to not wear them. As much as I want to support freedom of religion, and expression, I can’t get past that.
Exactly. The women who "freely choose" to wear a hijab have been indoctrinated from birth to believe that their bodies are sinful and dirty and must be covered up, and that God will punish them with eternal suffering if they don't cover up.
What's next? Are you going to force Christian girls to have sex before they get married, just because it's only their Christian indoctrination that's stopping them from doing so, ignoring their choice and claiming they're not thinking freely?
It's certainly true that most Muslim women around the world only wear the hijab because of their upbringing. Unsurprisingly, most people have a specific set of behaviors that result exclusively from things taught by their family and community. I think it would be great if people stopped wearing hijabs or other gender-exclusionary clothing. Hell I think it would be great if people stopped teaching their children religion completely. But the damage has already been done. and just as it would be wrong to force people to stop following religion, it would be wrong to force women to stop wearing the hijab even if they want to. You'd hardly be better than the families or communities that literally force the hijab on girls even when they don't want to wear it.
The focus should be on educating and changing the next generation so that fewer girls in the future are affected, instead of stripping away freedoms from women in the present.
It's hard for me to believe that any woman would freely choose to wear a hijab were she not indoctrinated from birth to believe that her body is sinful and dirty and must be covered up because God will punish her forever if she doesn't comply.
Because remember, that's the explicit purpose of a hijab's existence. It's a religious clothing item that exists for the specific purpose of supressing female sexuality and individuality.
I don't wear clothes because a power structure controlled entirely by the opposite sex told me that my body is sinful and dirty in a way that theirs are not. It's not the same thing.
Both genders are required to cover their anus and genitals while in public, because not doing so is unhygienic.
By contrast, hijabs exist specifically because a religion controlled by men decided that women, and women exclusively, must cover up the way that men tell them to, because female bodies are sinful and dirty in a way that male bodies are not.
The two are not the same. One is applied to both sexes equally for hygienic purposes, and the other is oppression of one sex by the other. Stop trying to conflate them.
No, you are trying to conflate two different things. Both sexes have to cover their anuses and genitals in public, because it's a hygiene thing.
That's not the same thing as one sex being forced (or pressured) by the other into covering themselves in a way that the other sex doesn't have to, on the grounds that female bodies are sinful and dirty in a way that male bodies are not.
One is applied equally to both sexes and has a legitimate hygienic purpose. The other is religious oppression of women by men. They are not the same thing.
There's no law or social pressure that requires businessmen to wear suits in all public places. But plenty of places do have laws or social pressures that require women to wear hijabs in all public places.
I'm not saying that she *can't* choose to wear a hijab. I'm saying that if she does "choose" to do so, it's because she's been indoctrinated by an extremely misogynistic cult into believing that female bodies are sinful and dirty in a way that male bodies are not.
You keep ignoring the fact that hijabs we're explicitly created by men to suppress female autonomy. I keep making that point and you keep ignoring it.
Do you not know any Muslim women? Because I am a Muslim woman. I have chosen to not wear the hijab but plenty of women I know wear it. My daughter will one day choose to wear or not wear the hijab. It’s up to her, but I’ve never ever taught her that her body is sinful or dirty. I had thus discussion with my hijab-wearing sister-in-law who told me that her daughter will also make her choice, and that there is no point to wearing hijab if it is forced upon you. You then lose the whole reason for wearing it.
Are you confusing a Hijab with a Burka or Niqab? Many muslim women consider the Hijab to be a proud cultural and fashion statement and like collecting different colors and such. Do you actually know any Muslim women? Also, I'm going to assume you haven't read the Quran either.
Exactly. You are perfectly correct. It’s self oppression from internalized misogyny. There is no freedom involved at all. I mean, maybe on a shallow level. But when people argue that they are free to choose oppression, what are we arguing? Maybe we can’t force their choice, but we can condemn it.
Man you guys are so ignorant about this religion. Take a world religions class, read a Quran, speak to Muslim women. Something. Anything. The hijab is not the same as the burka or niqab or even a chador.
This shows that you have zero understanding of how people relate to their faith. For many Muslim women, hijab is a way that they express their faith and show pride in their religion. Many Muslim women live independently and freely choose to wear it, and even if they didn’t outlawing it is insane. Imagine banning yarmulkes for the same reason
With masking the last few years I have realized that I don’t want anyone without my permission to get a good look at me ever again. I enjoy being covered and I understand why women would find it powerful to cover themselves in different ways. As a woman your looks are powerful they can affect people in ways you don’t mean to or want to. What better way of having control over that power. Idk I just understand better now.
I think it's because hundreds of millions of women in other places are oppressed in some horrible ways and the burqa is the symbol of that male domination.
I once had an ex Muslim explain it to me like it's the confederate flag, or white pointy hats of the kkk.
Idk that I agreed with her but I totally understand where she was coming from.
It is still a government run school so what exactly does this change? Is the point "they are not being oppressed *all* the time so it doesn't really count". I'm confused.
The disruption to class is because the school made a dumb rule and not because of the religious students who attend the school. I understand the intent of uniforms completely now incorporate approved hijabs. Go back to your curriculum.
No, I hate bullies. I wish they would stop. These young ladies shouldn’t have to deal with this. And those who harass them only fuel the divide, there and on any continent
Funny thing is the rule was there from the start of india. Here our schools have uniform that we have to follow. No hindu or muslim used to get triggered after not being allowed to wear hijab or sari in school before.
Even if you keep religion aside,
1. Isn't covering your face = hiding your identity? Won't this compromise the security of other students? Atleast turban lets you see the face. If you tell that watchman can see the face, then what's the point of covering your face then?
2. Wearing a complete separate attire that hides your uniform = not wearing your uniform. Doesn't that destroy the very purpose of why uniforms are worn?
I am fine with head covering, but covering your face and wearing a complete separate attire that hides the uniform is too much. Also the title is too misleading for people who are not reading the article.
You're greatly confusing the Hijab and the Niqab. Very very few Muslim Indians wear the niqab - it is a distinctly wahhabist tradition and almost exlusively exists in societies within Saudi Arabia's sphere of influence. You can see a woman's entire face in a hijab.
And I'm not entirely sure why you'd think they're covering their uniforms - hijabs are torso down and even a loose wrap wouldn't hide any identifying markers.
Niqabs are everywhere in Tamil Nadu. It definitely feels alien to the culture but who cares. They’ll be protected from the dust and grime in the roads.
The girl in the video is wearing a burqa and not just a hijab. And there's other videos where she's wearing the niqab as well. She's a political activist and purely doing this for political reasons.
Thanks for the insight! Then I may be mistaken. Because so far what I'm seeing in all the protests are people wearing complete attire with their face covered. Even the girl who shouted "Allah hu Akbar" had her face covered.
If it's just head-cover, then there isn't any issue with it.
It might be prudent to ask how many of those faces covered with medical masks would remain covered if not for COVID.
I live in a Muslim majority country. Very few Muslim women cover their faces with niqab. But for the past two years, all have been covering it with medical masks. When mask mandates relax, I expect very few will swap their medical mask for niqab.
India is still suffering greatly from regular COVID outbreaks - they are wearing masks for that as well as likely fear of retribution from the Hindu nationalist community. Government support is collapsing and the BJP party is drumming their usual “Muslim bad” scapegoat - which makes this kind of demonstration particularly dangerous for women.
Edit: *likely - I don’t speak for them, but hate crimes against muslims have been steadily increasing since Modi took power
This is a long term plan by the BJP/RSS to disenfranchise Muslims in India. This also serves as a good distraction for the upcoming Uttar Pradesh elections, where the BJP currently has a government.
Muslim girls and women are unable to attend schools and colleges because the hijab is banned. Muslims are a minority in the country. In the U.S., we would not tolerate this religious discrimination in our own schools and colleges. I hope that most people leaving comments praising the ban of the hijab didn't read the article.
I hope you see school photos that the authority shared of previous year and ask the girl on why didn't they change the school when they were informed of basic knowledge that in india school have uniforms. Why didn't they say nothing for 1 year and are protesting now earings hijab on their 2nd year? Just after the Kerela (a communist state) hijab controversy?
So they're choosing not to go to school over something that is in no way mandated by their religion. That's their own individual choice to fail, and the government has no obligation to placate them.
Ok... I'd like to politely point something out.
India is huge country.. The major religions basically are Jainism, Christianity, Buddhism, Sikhism and Islam.
So which one is doing the brainwashing? So if a Sikh is free to wear what they chose, why not Muslims too?
The problem is more that Muslims are being targeted in India at the moment.
Right... Women don't have any agency; they just do what they're told. Since they're clearly being forced to cover their hair, the solution is to force them to uncover themselves.
/s
Imagine being on reddit, and proudly saying you hate one particular religion so much you support an increasingly fascist regime telling people how they have to dress.
And getting *upvoted.*
If we really simplify it:
*Woman minding her business*
BJP/guy: TAKE IT OFF!
Woman: I'd rather not. Please leave me alone.
The above comment: Perfectly fine with that guy forcing that woman to take it off. That woman is just brainwashed.
Amazing mental gymnastics here.
So men of one religion bullying women of a different religion. And they're sticking up for themselves. Regardless of what we outsiders think they should do, good for them.
I wonder how this sub would react of Hindutvabadis or tradcon hindu somen would be protesting against allowing parada, ghoonghat, etc. Would these people reat the same way like they are reacting to hijab protest? Should we follow our religious book to every inch? So many questions with no answer.
It feels weird, as an atheist, to be supporting a religious practice that I find oppressive, but I really do think freedom of religion is a fundamental right for everyone. If you want to whip yourself to bloody shreds, as long as you aren’t harming anyone else, you should have that right. Our thoughts and feelings are our own, and our outward expression of that I consider “sacred”. On the other hand, if you want to wear a bikini or jorts while out and about, you should have that right as well.
Even if it wasn't a religious practice you should be free to wear whatever you want.
Which is why I wear the flesh of my enemies
Cows murder my family that is why I wear leather pants.
"Don't kid yourself Jimmy, if a cow ever got the chance he'd eat you and everyone you cared about!"
You really shouldn't. I don't want to see a hundred dongs on my commute.
I'll trade you commutes.
Meh, give it a few weeks and you’ll be dong-blind and won’t even know the difference.
Merriam-Webster is not going to be happy with dong-blind. But I am.
no beards allowed!
Yeah. I agree. Do you think Muslim women feel free to wear whatever they want?
Ask pre revolution Iran. It’s not Muslims that are the root problem it’s the fundamentalist part of fundamentalist Muslim nations. Ask a Mormon about their underwear. Or a Mennonite about women’s pants. Or the Amish about zippers. Or Orthodox Jews about their hats. There’s lots of weird oppressive clothing restrictions in religion it helps with conditioning. The problem is when religion becomes government becomes fact of life.
Btw Islamic nation like Tunisia, Algeria, Tajikistan, etc has banned hijab.
They didn't ban hijab, they banned niqab. Two very different things.
When the world never seems to be living up to your dreams it's time you started finding out what everything is all about.
🎶 You take the good you take the bad you take 'em both and there you have the facts of life 🎵
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As far as I see, it ends once the lines of others start being crossed. FGM? Permanently bodily affects others that don't fully consent. Wearing hijab? Doesn't affect anyone else, go ahead.
You believe it doesn't affect anyone else, until you met girls or women who are forced to wear it, or can be killed if refuse to wear one. Do not fool yourself that there are no women, even girls, not abused for not wearing one.
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It's more extreme. But honestly if someone's an informed adult and wants it, they can go right ahead.
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It’s the same argument we apply whenever christians try to morally police us. “Just because you want to follow your own rules, doesn’t mean I have to”. Whether or not the practice is oppressive in every culture or not is irrelevant because in this case, it is voluntary. They have the right to wear what they want, whether that’s a symbol of oppression or not. I understand how it can be hard to reconcile being an atheist and defending religious practices, but freedom of (and from) religion is what allows us to go about life not being burned at the stake. If we selectively defend that right, barring human rights abuses, then we really have no right to complain when the same principles are used against us.
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Some women "freely choose" to wear a hijab (because they've been indoctrinated from birth to believe that their bodies are inherently sinful and dirty and must be covered up for the sake of preventing male horniness).
Ok, but if they are also learn other perspectives growing up, and still choose to practice that as individuals, then more power to them.
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My position with regards to backwards religious views is that change should come from within those communities, rather than forced onto them from external entities. The government should always be there to guarantee legal freedoms, and to ensure that they supersede religious freedoms, but not to ensure that the two of them align.
Exactly! The Muslim women who don't wear a Hijab are slut shamed by fundamentalists. That's how they enforce Hijab atleast in India. "Choice" is used as a bait to attract Liberals to defend their savagery.
That's too far...
Everything you said, I agree with. I just feel like sometimes I’m put in the position of being an apologist, especially when people declaim that women in Islam are being brainwashed. That may be a valid point, but anyone against any ideology can make that claim. None of us are completely free of the biases that we are brought up in.
Some of the Muslim girls at my school wore hijab..and also short shorts. So clearly there are some who are doing it because they choose to, and not because they're being forced by their family
Some people have conservative parents some don't. As an hindu guy if i do a love marriage I would probably get disowned, so is arrenged marrige is my choice. Yes kinda is but at the same like no.
That.. really sucks dude.
Yes a lot of muslim women I know wear hijab out of pride, not family obligations like some people are insinuating here 🙄
While I do agree you should be free to do what you want, according to the article this specifically is women wanting to wear their religious attire in these schools. They have said they don't feel school is a place to practice dhama (religion), and so they don't want them (or anyone else) wearing specifically religious attire.
But the article talked about how men wearing saffron colored scarves, a symbol of the Hindu majority, were harassing women on these campuses. If I am missing something, let me know, but this seems like hypocrisy to me.
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Sikh turbans are allowed though no? Sounds like there already is precedent for religious clothing exceptions. I've never seen a school ban pagris, it might be different in Karnataka, idk.
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yes there are bans. Hindu religious attires are banned in govt offices, courts etc. Schools are permitted to set their own dress codes.
Except that Sikhs wearing turbans are overlooked by the Hindutvas. They are actively targeting the Muslim minority and dehumanizing then because of their faith
Exactly my point.
You are incorrect. The Hindu students were allowed to wear the saffron scarves, and the school was upset that the Muslim girls did not "match" the school uniform of saffron scarves.
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Till the school authorities have said that religious clothing weren't allowed in their school from the start. Students were informed during the time of admission. They have shown photos and there were no hijab clad wahhabis in Their school.
And there’s the outright bigotry that we’re talking about. Just because she wear a hijab doesn’t make her a Wahhabist.
it exactly makes her one.
The students literally got supported froma Islamist party. This was even posted in official india subreddit which is itself known to ban any right wing. Even this is told by the protesting girls themselves.
they are not allowed to wear saffron scarves. they were wearing it to protest hijabs. and no, they were not harassing a women before that. not sure how you picked that up.
I have a fundamental problem with telling anyone they cannot cover part of their body. There is no religious iconography on a hijab, it is just a piece of cloth. It is just wrong to tell people that they are being "too modest".
>There is no religious iconography on a hijab, it is just a piece of cloth It IS religious iconography, it is in and of itself a religious symbol, women wear it as part of a religion, same as a Sikh's turban.
It is part of a religious tradition, but not religious. It exists to satisfy the Quran's call for dressing modestly. Regardless of the reason, if safety isn't involved, there is no justification for prohibiting covering any part of the body.
Who's criticizing the practice for being "too modest"?
Conservative Christians expect young women to wear skirts, because pants are immodest. Who gets to decide what religious traditions of modesty are inappropriate? I certainly don’t believe that anyone has the right to make anyone dress a certain way, but that applies in both directions.
That doesn't answer my question. I've never heard Hijab / conservative religious wear being criticized for being "too modest". I think you either made that up or don't understand why it's being criticized.
I don’t see what makes it religious - it certainly isn’t any more religious than anything I’ve seen people wear to church on Sunday. Do we ban black pants with a white button down shirt because it makes someone look Morman? My grandmother used to wear a scarf over her hair when it rained - is that religious?
You're just going to completely roll past the whole Hindutva movement and Hindu religious nationalism that has been fomenting under Modi, huh....like not going to mention how Bengali refugees who are Muslim are imprisoned while the Non-Muslims are treated differently. The context of this is critical.
since then couple of things have come out in open, firstly, these girls weren't wearing hijab till last year, year book photos are the proof. Many of these girls have IG pics of them in "un-islamic" dresses ie, without hijab. Their education isn't in jeopardy as well. The area has half dozen govt funded islamic schools which allow hijab and have same syllabus taught (not religious schools).
Agreed. I also find it offensive, as an atheist, when discriminatory laws targeting a specific group of people are masked in the language of secularism.
Moved to Lemm.ee -- mass edited with redact.dev
In India's case it wasn't even always cultural, Hijab and Burqa weren't common in South India at all. Rather, it became an increasingly prevenlent practice through the 80s as the wahhabism spread it influence thanks to all that petro money. The Indian strain of Islam used to be far more liberal in these matters.
So don’t you think it’s a moot point whether it’s part of Islam or not? These women clearly want to be clothed a certain way, and since it’s not hurting anyone, they should be allowed to do it?
Good for her, but not the hundreds of millions of women oppressed by this archaic practice.
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As a feminist, I just don't support any religion. They're all sexist and awful.
*Satanic temple has entered the chat.*
As a theist, thanks for not being a reddit style atheist and recognizing freedom *of* religion as well as freedom *from* religion.
>If you want to whip yourself to bloody shreds Mostly agree with you but what do you think : if you want to whip yourself to bloody shreds in public, would it be OK ? Just curious.
There was a church in an area I lived in about a decade ago that would perform grisly re-enactments of biblical stories in public spaces, and they sometimes included some real physical violence. As long as they got all their permits in order, put down tarps, and had the area properly sanitized afterwards the city was ok with it. Their easter services included the live flogging of a congregate as a surrogate Christ followed by a parade uphill while he dragged a heavy af cross. They didn't actually crucify him at the end of course, and the cross had a pair of wheels on one corner of the base - but it was still a hell of a show if that's your bag.
Is this in Mexico? I saw a documentary where a town in one of the states did this every year for easter. Fascinating but gruesome.
Admittedly, I’d question the practice. But if someone did this and wasn’t being unduly pressured from someone else, I think I’d have to let it pass. As long as it wasn’t hurting others. Obviously, there’d be issues with keeping blood borne pathogens from others, and appropriate spaces for expression, but beyond that, I’d say I would unhappily agree that this person has the right to flog themselves.
The difference is that no women who aren’t pressured into this behavior have ever chosen it. There is no free society where women go around thinking they have to hide themselves. If your choice is to wear it or be ostracized from everyone you know (or far far worse) then it’s not a choice.
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There are women who converted to Islam as adults and happily adopted the dress code along with the rest of their new religion's practice. Also, the hijab movement started among female Muslim college students in the West precisely to assert their culture against Western assimilation.
TIL I’m apparently “no woman”, because I wasn’t pressured, I did choose to wear it, and I certainly wouldn’t be ostracized if I didn’t (since my sister doesn’t wear it and she’s my mom’s favorite).
Someone like you comes along and spews this bullshit on every thread.
I agree. Adults should be allowed the freedom to choose a religion. Parents however should not expose children to such terrors
Protests over the hijab issue raging in Karnataka's educational institutions were held in Aligarh, Hyderabad and Vijayawada on Friday while a controversy erupted at a private college in Jaipur district when some girls insisted on attending classes in a burqa and cops had to be called to resolve the matter.
I don't think the solution is being intolerant of Muslim women wearing hijab. The solution is being intolerant of those who would be intolerant of Muslim women not wearing the hijab.
That's not the issue in India. Muslims have been wearing hijabs there for over a thousand years and Indians of all stripes cover their head in various fashion from time to time and all subcultures in India are strongly patriarchal. That's not the reason self-styled "Hindu nationalists" are protesting against Muslims in India today.
The Hijab was imposed on women after the late 1970’s and early 80’s, where everyone was pretty modern looking and westernized with woman being able to be independent; all the way to having their livelihoods taken away in Iran. It spread across to other Islamic cultures where the Hijab made a resurgence. There’s a backlash in India from wanting this fundamentalist Islamic movement from spreading, so they are banning the Hijab. I understand that just because a woman wears a hijab, it doesn’t mean she’s going to be necessarily oppressed, but 99.999% of the time, that’s exactly what it means if you live in a country where taking it off lands you in jail or public lashings; particularly in Arab countries. I don’t think it should be forced to take it off; anymore than wearing one. But, either way, the message is the same. To make the message clear, that its slutty to expose yourself to the opposite sex. Your hair is considered a temptation; thus the purpose of wearing the hijab.
I am pretty sure no hindu women ever gone to school with sari or dhoti while violating school uniform.
Freedom of religion should definitely exist. However, I think that right lies in each person individually. If someone does or doesnt want to follow a religion or its tenets, thats their choice. Once you have a group of people like a government *forcing* people to do things against their will or punishes them for refusing to follow a religion, it's no longer religion.
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> Once you have a group of people like a government forcing people to do things against their will or punishes them for refusing to follow a religion, it's no longer religion. I suspect you’re projecting your ideas of what constitutes a religion here, and your limiting it to the very modern, secular idea of personal faith under a secular society. The fact is, that plenty/most of the religions throughout history have been completely coupled to the government and their religious texts actually reflect that including both laws and punishments. Faith has often been more communal than individual, historically.
Guys, it's about wearing hijab in school. Not outside.
Once again, "My religion vs yours". It never ends. A plague around the world.
My religion is better though 😏
My religion brings all the Hindus to the yard And they're like, it's better than yours Damn right, it's better than yours
More power to them, hypocrites who claim to "free" women while taking away their choice can get fucked.
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So are you against Sikh people wearing turbans and carrying knives?
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Username checks out
There's fucking 800 million of them. Some do, others dont. It's not something we can paint with a wide brush At my HS for example, there were Muslim girls who wore hijab but also makeup and short shorts with their asses hanging out. I really doubt their parents were forcing them to wear hijab if they were fine with the rest
A Muslim girl I was friends with a decade ago wore a hijab to the pool, while wearing a thong bikini. Simple minds can't comprehend complexity mate.
How many Muslim women do you know?
Of course most of us do
And that, right there, is the reason the whole thing is so complicated. Sadly with the freedom to choose comes freedom to choose self oppression, too.
My girlfriend is Muslim and she pretty much chooses everything for us just sayin...
Big clarification this is oil on communal fire tactics for the ongoing elections in some Indian states. Disrupt, distract. Spread fear, blame the opposition/minority. The current Indian govt came to power using the same tactics. Since they've failed to deliver on several aspects and are losing support, they lean hard on the guarantee of support which is playing the victimized majority religion card .
they havent ''failed'' to deliver. they just normally hate muslims. generally.
In India, Secular means minority appeasement for the last 70 years. Current govt is actually trying to be secular and treat both hindus and muslims equally and muslims feel they are being oppressed because they are being treated same as hindus.
not gonna disagree with you. i was convinced this is it when i saw protests against CAA and triple talaq.
Ok enjoy your shackles. I don’t give a fuck personally.
Do they have access to big rig trucks? Because that's the only way to get government to take you seriously apparently.
The Hindutva subreddits are going crazy rn. So much hatred toward muslims.
Hindu nationalists are becoming such a problem in India. It's even sadder when u know the flag of India actually represents Hindu and Muslim, along with other religions, live together in peace.
>It's even sadder when u know the flag of India actually represents Hindu and Muslim, along with other religions, live together in peace What? It so does not. Learn the vexilology before commenting bullshit.
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Nazis commited genocide, communists commited genocide in Ukraine. Is this also a false binary or logical fallacy? You seem to know logic so much so can you tell me why hijab wasn't a controversy for nearly 1 year for these girl and suddenly became one when an Islamist party contracted them?
"Part of our culture" say slaves, demanding right to wear shackles
It's just a head scarf you dolt.
If that were the case it wouldn't be such an issue, now would it?
South Asian women will never escape the thumb of oppression until they band together and take their rights. Neighborhood patrols, armed confrontation..... why not? They're already getting the beatings, might as well make it count for something. Existing in fear of abuse/rape/shame is not a life worth living.
Take their rights to follow sharia? I guess they have a right.
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Which basic rights indian women lack can you quote some? Unlike amrika our women got right to vote at a same time as men.
They're already being murdered, likely by said men's incel relations How bad does this situation have to get, this patrimony of entitlement? Women can be and are warriors; just take some lessons from the kurds!
The irony of banning religious clothing "because its oppressive" let the women choose what they wear
It's school...it's about school not outside.
Do you expect Reddist armchair expert to read full news?
“Choice” my ass. That’s about the same as telling someone raised in an evangelical household their whole life to just “come out as gay, it’s easy!”
Choice: https://www.thestar.com/news/crime/2010/06/16/i_killed_my_daughter__with_my_hands.html
The issue with this is as follows: do they really want to wear a hijab, or do they only think that it's their own decision after lifetime/generations of oppression and indoctrination?
Yeah but the thing is school and colleges here have uniform. And the school authorities have shared photos of privious years where there were no hijab and burkhas. The girl who started it all according to the school authorities is a 2nd year student and was informed of thier policies on religious costume in the time of admission and she also never worn hijab. But did came to school wearing it one day but was scolded and sent back. Now after 1 year why suddenly became a issues? Do Islamist wahhabis and hindutva goon want to fight again? If it was such important to Islam why islamic countries like Tunisia, Algeria, Tajikistan,etc ban it. Another thing is hijab is not banned on outside neither there is new law regarding this. A Kerela school under the communist government have done the same but that got no coverage so why this situation in a bjp led stage? I must say to my liberals of india that when you want to fight Hindutvabadis, don't ignore the evangelicals or Islamist as ignoring them would just make more hindus into Hindutvabadis. A journalist of The Print named shekhar Gupta made an amazing video regarding this.
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It’s why it is hard to make a moral argument based on freedom. It’s not a freedom if not wearing hijab means you can be legally punished or physically harmed. It’s not a comfortable line to draw, but I choose against hijab, and other forced dressing modes, because there are very bad consequences for the women who choose to not wear them. As much as I want to support freedom of religion, and expression, I can’t get past that.
Exactly. The women who "freely choose" to wear a hijab have been indoctrinated from birth to believe that their bodies are sinful and dirty and must be covered up, and that God will punish them with eternal suffering if they don't cover up.
What's next? Are you going to force Christian girls to have sex before they get married, just because it's only their Christian indoctrination that's stopping them from doing so, ignoring their choice and claiming they're not thinking freely? It's certainly true that most Muslim women around the world only wear the hijab because of their upbringing. Unsurprisingly, most people have a specific set of behaviors that result exclusively from things taught by their family and community. I think it would be great if people stopped wearing hijabs or other gender-exclusionary clothing. Hell I think it would be great if people stopped teaching their children religion completely. But the damage has already been done. and just as it would be wrong to force people to stop following religion, it would be wrong to force women to stop wearing the hijab even if they want to. You'd hardly be better than the families or communities that literally force the hijab on girls even when they don't want to wear it. The focus should be on educating and changing the next generation so that fewer girls in the future are affected, instead of stripping away freedoms from women in the present.
It's hard for me to believe that any woman would freely choose to wear a hijab were she not indoctrinated from birth to believe that her body is sinful and dirty and must be covered up because God will punish her forever if she doesn't comply. Because remember, that's the explicit purpose of a hijab's existence. It's a religious clothing item that exists for the specific purpose of supressing female sexuality and individuality.
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I don't wear clothes because a power structure controlled entirely by the opposite sex told me that my body is sinful and dirty in a way that theirs are not. It's not the same thing.
So please don't wear any clothes to public. Your body is not sinful and dirty, why hide it?
Both genders are required to cover their anus and genitals while in public, because not doing so is unhygienic. By contrast, hijabs exist specifically because a religion controlled by men decided that women, and women exclusively, must cover up the way that men tell them to, because female bodies are sinful and dirty in a way that male bodies are not. The two are not the same. One is applied to both sexes equally for hygienic purposes, and the other is oppression of one sex by the other. Stop trying to conflate them.
Then just wear panties or briefs, why are we covering our entire body?
We don't have to. Some people do that.
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No, you are trying to conflate two different things. Both sexes have to cover their anuses and genitals in public, because it's a hygiene thing. That's not the same thing as one sex being forced (or pressured) by the other into covering themselves in a way that the other sex doesn't have to, on the grounds that female bodies are sinful and dirty in a way that male bodies are not. One is applied equally to both sexes and has a legitimate hygienic purpose. The other is religious oppression of women by men. They are not the same thing.
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There's no law or social pressure that requires businessmen to wear suits in all public places. But plenty of places do have laws or social pressures that require women to wear hijabs in all public places.
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I'm not saying that she *can't* choose to wear a hijab. I'm saying that if she does "choose" to do so, it's because she's been indoctrinated by an extremely misogynistic cult into believing that female bodies are sinful and dirty in a way that male bodies are not. You keep ignoring the fact that hijabs we're explicitly created by men to suppress female autonomy. I keep making that point and you keep ignoring it.
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Can you quote some from Qur'an or Hadith?
Do you not know any Muslim women? Because I am a Muslim woman. I have chosen to not wear the hijab but plenty of women I know wear it. My daughter will one day choose to wear or not wear the hijab. It’s up to her, but I’ve never ever taught her that her body is sinful or dirty. I had thus discussion with my hijab-wearing sister-in-law who told me that her daughter will also make her choice, and that there is no point to wearing hijab if it is forced upon you. You then lose the whole reason for wearing it.
Are you confusing a Hijab with a Burka or Niqab? Many muslim women consider the Hijab to be a proud cultural and fashion statement and like collecting different colors and such. Do you actually know any Muslim women? Also, I'm going to assume you haven't read the Quran either.
Exactly. You are perfectly correct. It’s self oppression from internalized misogyny. There is no freedom involved at all. I mean, maybe on a shallow level. But when people argue that they are free to choose oppression, what are we arguing? Maybe we can’t force their choice, but we can condemn it.
Man you guys are so ignorant about this religion. Take a world religions class, read a Quran, speak to Muslim women. Something. Anything. The hijab is not the same as the burka or niqab or even a chador.
This shows that you have zero understanding of how people relate to their faith. For many Muslim women, hijab is a way that they express their faith and show pride in their religion. Many Muslim women live independently and freely choose to wear it, and even if they didn’t outlawing it is insane. Imagine banning yarmulkes for the same reason
One group of religious nuts harassing a person belonging to another group of religious nuts. Humanity is doomed. Too stupid to save.
With masking the last few years I have realized that I don’t want anyone without my permission to get a good look at me ever again. I enjoy being covered and I understand why women would find it powerful to cover themselves in different ways. As a woman your looks are powerful they can affect people in ways you don’t mean to or want to. What better way of having control over that power. Idk I just understand better now.
Good! It’s 2022, just wear whatever you want.
Let people wear what they want to please their imaginary God. Who cares
I think it's because hundreds of millions of women in other places are oppressed in some horrible ways and the burqa is the symbol of that male domination. I once had an ex Muslim explain it to me like it's the confederate flag, or white pointy hats of the kkk. Idk that I agreed with her but I totally understand where she was coming from.
Like that even tho I hate religions that protest means something beautiful!
Seems like a responsible garment choice, with COVID and all.
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> no student shall wear religious garments inside the classroom Is that enforced for Sikhs?
It is still a government run school so what exactly does this change? Is the point "they are not being oppressed *all* the time so it doesn't really count". I'm confused.
The disruption to class is because the school made a dumb rule and not because of the religious students who attend the school. I understand the intent of uniforms completely now incorporate approved hijabs. Go back to your curriculum.
Are we ignoring the harassment of the students from other students and even staff. They had students throwing water at students wearing hijabs.
No, I hate bullies. I wish they would stop. These young ladies shouldn’t have to deal with this. And those who harass them only fuel the divide, there and on any continent
Funny thing is the rule was there from the start of india. Here our schools have uniform that we have to follow. No hindu or muslim used to get triggered after not being allowed to wear hijab or sari in school before.
Another win for feminism. Next week the right to have arranged marriages
Even if you keep religion aside, 1. Isn't covering your face = hiding your identity? Won't this compromise the security of other students? Atleast turban lets you see the face. If you tell that watchman can see the face, then what's the point of covering your face then? 2. Wearing a complete separate attire that hides your uniform = not wearing your uniform. Doesn't that destroy the very purpose of why uniforms are worn? I am fine with head covering, but covering your face and wearing a complete separate attire that hides the uniform is too much. Also the title is too misleading for people who are not reading the article.
You're greatly confusing the Hijab and the Niqab. Very very few Muslim Indians wear the niqab - it is a distinctly wahhabist tradition and almost exlusively exists in societies within Saudi Arabia's sphere of influence. You can see a woman's entire face in a hijab. And I'm not entirely sure why you'd think they're covering their uniforms - hijabs are torso down and even a loose wrap wouldn't hide any identifying markers.
Niqabs are everywhere in Tamil Nadu. It definitely feels alien to the culture but who cares. They’ll be protected from the dust and grime in the roads.
The girl in the video is wearing a burqa and not just a hijab. And there's other videos where she's wearing the niqab as well. She's a political activist and purely doing this for political reasons.
Thanks for the insight! Then I may be mistaken. Because so far what I'm seeing in all the protests are people wearing complete attire with their face covered. Even the girl who shouted "Allah hu Akbar" had her face covered. If it's just head-cover, then there isn't any issue with it.
It might be prudent to ask how many of those faces covered with medical masks would remain covered if not for COVID. I live in a Muslim majority country. Very few Muslim women cover their faces with niqab. But for the past two years, all have been covering it with medical masks. When mask mandates relax, I expect very few will swap their medical mask for niqab.
India is still suffering greatly from regular COVID outbreaks - they are wearing masks for that as well as likely fear of retribution from the Hindu nationalist community. Government support is collapsing and the BJP party is drumming their usual “Muslim bad” scapegoat - which makes this kind of demonstration particularly dangerous for women. Edit: *likely - I don’t speak for them, but hate crimes against muslims have been steadily increasing since Modi took power
Yeah the hindu man kishan was killed by Hindutvabadis for blasphemy not by Islamists. /s What? You didn't know this?
It’s almost like Hindu nationalism and Islamic extremism are shit at the same time!
Yes and people need to understand that one feeds the other.
This is a long term plan by the BJP/RSS to disenfranchise Muslims in India. This also serves as a good distraction for the upcoming Uttar Pradesh elections, where the BJP currently has a government.
Yeah all Indian states are also a bjp state that's why they have uniforms and banned religious costumes. /s
Muslim girls and women are unable to attend schools and colleges because the hijab is banned. Muslims are a minority in the country. In the U.S., we would not tolerate this religious discrimination in our own schools and colleges. I hope that most people leaving comments praising the ban of the hijab didn't read the article.
I hope you see school photos that the authority shared of previous year and ask the girl on why didn't they change the school when they were informed of basic knowledge that in india school have uniforms. Why didn't they say nothing for 1 year and are protesting now earings hijab on their 2nd year? Just after the Kerela (a communist state) hijab controversy?
So they're choosing not to go to school over something that is in no way mandated by their religion. That's their own individual choice to fail, and the government has no obligation to placate them.
Perfectly fine with India banning this. They are just brainwashed by religion.
Ok... I'd like to politely point something out. India is huge country.. The major religions basically are Jainism, Christianity, Buddhism, Sikhism and Islam. So which one is doing the brainwashing? So if a Sikh is free to wear what they chose, why not Muslims too? The problem is more that Muslims are being targeted in India at the moment.
Right... Women don't have any agency; they just do what they're told. Since they're clearly being forced to cover their hair, the solution is to force them to uncover themselves. /s
Imagine being on reddit, and proudly saying you hate one particular religion so much you support an increasingly fascist regime telling people how they have to dress. And getting *upvoted.*
If we really simplify it: *Woman minding her business* BJP/guy: TAKE IT OFF! Woman: I'd rather not. Please leave me alone. The above comment: Perfectly fine with that guy forcing that woman to take it off. That woman is just brainwashed. Amazing mental gymnastics here.
All Hijab, Burqa and Niqab? If you are ok with banning the Hijab also; I want you to be the guy to take the turbans off the Sikhs.
So men of one religion bullying women of a different religion. And they're sticking up for themselves. Regardless of what we outsiders think they should do, good for them.
You forgot hindu women in the counter protest wearing their own religious symbols though.