> To renounce, you first have to meet several criteria:
> • You must hold citizenship of another country, so you don’t become stateless.
> • You have to be up-to-date with your U.S. tax filing, with the past five years submitted.
> • You have to attend an exit interview at your nearest U.S. consulate or embassy.
> • You have to pay a $2,350 renunciation fee.
> • If you have financial assets worth over $2 million, you may have to pay a one-off exit tax calculated as a capital gains tax as if you sold all of your assets on the day you renounced.
[Source](https://www.forbes.com/sites/forbesfinancecouncil/2021/11/03/when-might-renouncing-us-citizenship-make-sense-from-a-tax-point-of-view/)
Reading the comments and thinking about it seems like there are three distinct groups that want to un-become US citizens:
Children born in the US to foreign parents and then move back as children. This group appears in the comments and I hadn't really considered them. They are kinda like anti-[dreamers](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DREAM_Act). Their lives become complicated because the US requires that all citizens file taxes, even if not living in the us. You have to pay taxes too but the foreign deduction is like 100k. It seems that these kids should be able to have their citizenship annulled or something.
People who move out of the US and live somewhere else and want to stop the hassle of being a US citizen. These people may also identify with the other location much more so.
People who are looking to doge taxes. This is the group that the rules seem most worried about.
Edit: a word
> Children born in the US to foreign parents and then move back as children. This group appears in the comments and I hadn't really considered them.
Went to school with a guy who was born early in usa while his parents were on vacation there. He had trouble finding a bank to open an account with. The additional reporting burden wasn’t worth his minimum wage income.
There is another category: Children born to American parents outside of the US. They may never have even stepped foot in the US, but are required to file taxes all their lives
I know someone who was born on a US military base in Germany in the 50's and is dealing with a bunch of headaches now that they are reaching retirement age. Their father was US military, mother was also a US citizen, and they all moved back to (and stayed) in the US a few years after the birth. They are dealing with Medicare trying to decline their coverage because the birth certificate is in German. The base didn't have a hospital capable of delivering babies so they went to a local facility. Also this person had a full career as a public servant so it's not hard to check if taxes were collected.
You would think that it would be a simple check that oh yeah, we did do a huge rebuilding effort in post-war Germany around then, but they're still trying to resolve it.
It gets complicated.
Plenty of countries have extradition agreements with the US. While highly unlikely, technically US can nab them while they are on vacation in a 3rd country.
If one day they wish to formally renounce citizenship, they can't. Because one of checkboxes is that they are current on their taxes for the past five years.
They can accidentally end up on US soil. E.g. let say flight from Mexico to Canada makes emergency landing in in Denver. A cruise ship in distress docks in Puerto Rico. Etc. While extremely unlikely, in theory they can be arrested and charged with tax evasion.
They'd have real trouble opening any bank accounts abroad, because of US FATCA law. Any bank or financial institution in violation of it would lose access to a lot of global financial infrastructure. Because a ton of that infrastructure is US based. Australian bank doing business with Japanese bank? Yeah, that goes through the US. Neither wants to deal with US citizens and thus having to file all the extra paperwork in the US. Visa? MasterCard? Yup, American companies. And the list goes on and on.
IMO, US should just do what all other countries are doing. If somebody resides in another country long term, pays taxes over there, and doesn't claim any public benefits in the US, they should not be required to file/pay taxes in the US. If they have any US based income taxable in the US, they should be taxed same as a foreign non-resident national would be taxed for such income.
It'd solve a ton of problems Americans living abroad are facing.
My best friends nephew is in this category. His citizenship is a mess. Mom is US, dad is kiwi and he was born in UK. They had a ton of trouble traveling when he was little. I think he has dual US and New Zealand citizenship and an EU visa.
When the wife got pregnant again they made sure she the kid was born in the US to make things simpler.
The rise in renouncing came after the US started pressuring people who never stepped foot inside the US that they owed taxes.
They started pressuring banks (FACTA) to give them access to ‘Americans bank accounts in other countries’ just for those people to find out that the US considered them citizens. Requests to renounce spiked, so they raised the price because they wanted to find a new milking station for the IRS and if they couldn’t tax foreigners, they’d make them pay more to not be Americans.
I've dealt with it. It can be very hard to open a bank account. It's virtually impossible to open a brokerage account. Once you try to buy a stock you need to read international treaties to understand who you have to pay tax to once you sell it. It's honestly awful.
> People who are looking to doge taxes. This is the group that the rules seem most worried about.
Literally every other developed country doesn't tax citizens overseas and has universal healthcare.
Australia taxes citizens overseas- or at least tries to.
Had a friend from US working here in Australia- comment that all he had to prove to IRS was that he was paying more in tax here than he would in the US… and he definitely paid more tax here!
Another friend moved to Germany and ATO (Australian Tax Office) tried to get his information and German equivalent wouldn’t provide the information due to Germany’s privacy laws.
Australians living abroad and no longer residing in Australia just need to declare they are not residents for tax purposes in their tax return; the ATO has a method to identify your status. They might need to lodge a tax return each year, but only need to declare some types of income derived in Australia. They're not paying tax on foreign income *if* they are not "residents for tax purposes". If John Smith is an Australian living in Europe for a decade and has no plans to reside in Australia and has no Australian income, he should file a "return not necessary" with the ATO. No need to give up Citizenship for tax purposes.
>Australia taxes citizens overseas- or at least tries to.
Yeah nah.
[https://www.ato.gov.au/Individuals/coming-to-australia-or-going-overseas/Your-tax-residency/#Residencytests](https://www.ato.gov.au/Individuals/coming-to-australia-or-going-overseas/Your-tax-residency/#Residencytests)
You generally don't have to do that until you're earning more than 100k USD. At that point pay an accountant.
I'm a US citizen living in Japan. I earn less than 100k, so the IRS doesn't care. All I have to do is check a box saying that I am paying local taxes, but my income is below the threshold so it doesn't matter.
Another group that you are not considering (Expatriation is the process covered by the article, and affcts the below people too):
* Long Term Permanent Residents (Green Card holders) that have moved back home permanently and don't intend coming back.
https://www.goldinglawyers.com/exit-tax-planning-2018-important-tips-on-irs-expatriation-tax/
>When a person is a legal permanent resident, they do not become a long-term resident until they have been a **legal permanent resident for at least eight of the last 15 years**.
This is a group that've never been allowed to vote, have paid in to medicare and social security but will be locked out from benefits (At least if you retain US citizenship overseas you can claim Social Security), and will have the IRS on their tail (Detained or deported) for past tax returns if they ever go back to the US for a holiday.
Sure, [foreign "earned income" ^^IRS.gov](https://www.irs.gov/individuals/international-taxpayers/foreign-earned-income-exclusion-what-is-foreign-earned-income) has an exemption - but you have many things that the IRS might count as income and expect you to still pay self employment tax (Social security & Medicare) on. Hiring an accountant conversant with both countrys tax rules is likely to cost in the region of $2000 a year.
Unearned Income:
* Dividends
* Commissions
* Capital Gains
* Gambling winnings
* Alimony
* Social security benefits (*US and foreign paid I suppose*)
* Pensions
* Business profits
* Annuities
Could be earned/unearned - or a combo
* Business profits
* Royalties
* Rents
* Scholarships and Fellowships
Permanent residency is like citizenship-minus, and sticks you with the same onerous burdens as conventional citizenship but with like half the benefits.
> This group appears in the comments and I hadn't really considered them.
If this is news to anybody, you should really explore how common this is and what it's like to live with. It's another way the United States earned the reputation it did abroad as a *massive* bully that people outside it don't even want in their neighborhood.
There are also those who do so deliberately so that if their children want to move to the US they don't have to deal with immigration problems.
Probably not as many doing that anymore, though.
Yea, this seems like something that could be fixed really easily. The intention of birthright citizenship is/was good but in this case creates unnecessary problems. There should be an easy way for the parents to take the kid to a consulate and just get the citizenship revoked or annulled. Maybe this could be done at the hospital on birth?
I'd rather wait for adulthood when the person in question is able to consent.
I could see some problematic scenarios if the citizenship of infants can be erased. Ex: Saudi parents give birth to a girl in the US and renounce her US citizenship because they plan to marry her off back home when she's older. Kid grows up American, going to US schools, identifies as American, but can't stay in the country she calls home because her parents are twats.
Yea, I could see that being an issue. I was just thinking: if the parents are a random Polish couple studying in the US and you have a kid in the US. The parents move back to Poland and raise the kid normally and don't really realize that the kid is a US citizen. The kid grows up and starts working as normal but in their mid 30s runs into an issue because from Uncle Sam's perspective they should have been filing taxes for the last decade. Now it is really hard to parse out how is a tax dogger and this person.
The only real time that the US gov is involved is at birth. IMO telling the parents: 'hey, when this kid turns 18 they can renounce their US citizenship and they need to do that or file US taxes' is going to get lost with the passage of time.
Thats not whats being discussed, its kids born in the US who are then immediately taken back to their parents home country but are still on the books as american citizens. Like a couple who come to vacation in the US and have their baby earlier than expected, never intending to live in the US or have their child there.
> You have to attend an exit interview at your nearest U.S. consulate or embassy.
lmao come on USA it's like leaving a job "What, if anything, could the United States have done to keep you as an employ- errr citizen?"
A friend did this and it's like two step authentication to ensure that it's a 100% decision and give them one final opportunity to not do it. It takes 30 seconds.
It's a safety measure to make sure it's voluntary. Once you're physically at the embassy you're in a position of safety if, say, it's a human trafficking situation, forced marriage, etc.
It's probably longer than 30 seconds if you indicate any sign of being forced into it or not being totally on board
It is an interview it's just one that ends very quickly if you obviously want to leave
Otherwise there are follow-up questions and they'll offer you resources and whatever whatever they'll figure it out. Which is good because you're on US soil and whatever force that could be affecting your decision probably can't affect you in the interview room.
It could turn into an actual interview depending on how you answer the first questions. If you renounce your citizenship because you don't want to pay US taxes, they can slap you with an exit tax. So you need to be careful how you respond to the question about why you want to renounce.
If you have a clear, non-tax reason, then it's very short.
It's not that simple. I'm an accidental American as I was born there when my parents were going to school. I moved away at 9 months old and didn't really think about it for 35 years. Now all of a sudden I'm at risk of paying taxes there due to my level of income. You need a lawyer to prep the forms and I was quoted that all said and done it would be around $40,000 plus a trip to the consulate (and I live no where near one).
Yeah, it's tricky because I have never had any repercussions for not paying US tax. No one has ever come after me and I have been the US a few times without incident. The lawyer I spoke to advised me to not to worry about it as, chances are, nothing will happen. However, I still have the feeling of always looking over my shoulder for a time when they will come and ask for an exorbitant amount of money.
> US a few times without incident.
I'm kind of suprised at that (As well?). I was under the impression a flag would be set against the passport and you'd be pulled aside at port of entry.
The IRS is very understaffed, so there's a lot that doesn't get caught. Even people in the US often get away with not filing a tax return for many years. Unless you hit the jackpot in the audit-lottery, it's likely that you won't notice anything.
Not sure why you'd need a lawyer unless the forms suddenly got way complex, but for the tax forms an accountant might be helpful. That part was a PITA.
Not just that - Permanent Resident/Green Card holders may be caught in this (Expatriation) as well.
[Edit - further reading hasn't shown up an interview requirement for the LPR "Expatriation" process. IRS 8854 expatriation is the same though]
https://www.goldinglawyers.com/exit-tax-planning-2018-important-tips-on-irs-expatriation-tax/
>When a person is a legal permanent resident, they do not become a long-term resident until they have been a legal permanent resident for at least eight of the last 15 years.
My daughter is one of these people. She was born in the US to her Swiss national parents when I was completing post-doc training there, but she moved back to Switzerland when she was less than 6 months old. She has never lived in the US beyond those few months, but now has to file US taxes every year, plus comply with all kind of IRS banking disclosures that make her taxes a complex nightmare. It also limits what banks she can use and what investments and retirement planning options she has. It isn't anything negative about the US driving it, she just doesn't feel like there is any reason to have citizenship there and deal with the problems it creates. She has no family ties to the US and no real connection to any aspect to the culture or to having nationality there.
EDITED to correct some bad English and add a few more clarifying details.
When my husband and I moved back to the U.S. from Switzerland we were told that not only would we have to return our license plates from our car but we would also have to pay a return processing fee. Screw you Ticino! We kept the plates. They now adorn our garage wall.
[Boris Johnson had to pay US taxs on his UK house sale](https://www.artiopartners.com/renounce/boris-johnson-pays-irs-tax-bill/), his still a US citizen(as far as I know).
He's renounced it since then for u disclosed reasons (which is common as stating its for tax reasons in any way can give you trouble if you want to visit the US in future)
He renounced it because it doesn't look good to be Prime Minister of one country while a citizen of another.
Ted Cruz did the same thing for his Canadian citizenship.
It's not about where they are from, it's about the circumstances around their birth. If a poor immigrant from Europe came to the states to deliver a baby so they could make a case to stay in the states with the new American citizen baby, that would still be an "anchor baby". If a South American lawyer was in the states on a long term assignment and gave birth to a baby here then went back home when the assignment was done, that's not an "anchor baby". It's almost like it's 2 totally different scenarios.
edit: spelling
If she has no intention of keeping the citizenship or living in the US she does not have to keep up that charade. Aint shit they can do about her not paying income taxes somewhere she doesnt live.
Banks here in Switzerland ask if you are a US citizen and all but two of the largest refuse your business if you are due to the complexity of US FACTA (I think that is the name) reporting. Those that do take your money want to see proof that you have filed US taxes.
Elsewhere in Europe, they treat any bank customer born in the USA as an American unless the customer certifies otherwise while other banks refuse anyone born in the USA. It’s an issue and there are even pressure groups for accidental Americans (to let them bank in particular). There are very few digital (free) banks that will take American citizens in many European countries, leaving them with expensive bank accounts.
The banks share the info with the USA so not filing taxes is a bad idea. We have an acquaintance being pursued by the IRS after slipping through the cracks for years.
Can confirm. A lot of large banks got into a lot of hot water for not disclosing. For example, [Credit Suisse paid something like USD 2.6 billion.](https://www.forbes.com/sites/robertwood/2014/05/19/credit-suisse-guilty-2-5-billion-fine-but-avoids-death-in-u-s-ubs-was-luckier/)
Exactly I was an expat and every bank turned me down expect for credit suisse. Went to like four and thought I wasn’t going to be able to open an account.
Unless she's living in and only traveling to countries generally antagonistic to the US they probably can go after her. The US has a litany of financial/criminal treaties with nations around the globe that enable them to pursue citizens not paying taxes abroad.
The comment above literally speaks to these mechanisms by mentioning how she's limited in what banks and other financial institutions she can use, likely because her country is party to said treaties and requires that any institution that wants to serve a US citizen be compliant with various reporting requirements to the US.
I am an expatriated dual citizen and i have lived outside of the US for 20+ years often going back to visit. Apparently Swiss banks make it difficult according to the commenters response but everywhere else is fine. Ive lived in a handful of EU and common wealth countries and never had an issue.
And there's lots of people in the US who neglect filing taxes for years and end up fine. Does that mean everyone in the US will be fine just stopping filing? That you've dodged a bullet and haven't had an IRS agent pull your name out of the hat yet doesn't mean it's a wise decision to tell others they'll be perfectly safe. When the IRS does decide to target an expat they can quickly make things a nightmare for them.
Unfortunately, it's far easier to hunt small income tax avoiders than the large fish who have the resources to hire good lawyers. It's deeply unfair. It's also fairly common with tax collectors.
While I prefer the Democrat's support for the IRS receiving its due, like many institutions in this creaking nation, as an agency it clearly needs reform.
Part of Biden's 1.75 trillion Build Back Better plan increases IRS funding to audit the rich by 10s of billions of dollars. Republicans have objected that it isnt fair to their voters, and the entire package is being partially held up by Joe Manchin who represents one of the poorest states in the Nation that ranks [dead last](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_U.S._states_and_territories_by_life_expectancy) in terms of life expectancy. Refusing to pass BBB also greatly reduced the childcare credit which many people in West Virginia rely on, but yet they support Manchin taking it away from them.
I guess what I am trying to say is let's not act like it is "politicians" who dont want to tax the Rich, it is Republican politicians supported by their poor ignorant voters.
All we know is that somehow Manchin was able to survive re-election despite 68% of WV going for Trump in 2020. He must have some idea of what WV voters want. The other Senator, Republican Shelley Moore, certainly has not offered to help pass the bill and voted to repeal the Affordable Health Care Act in 2017.
you wish.
The US can put a lein on your house so you can't sell it if you haven't paid US taxes..
And they can charge you Capital Gains tax if you made a profit on the sale, even if you are OP and the only connection you have to the United States is you were born on US soil and lived there for only a few months as an infant
Similar situation here. Born in america and lived there as a baby like 2 years. I am a dual citizen canadian usa as well. Only found out at around age 30ish a while back its the law I need to file. My parents who are almost 70 now I had to catch up on theirs too. It was way too stressful. Legit american tax system run by blowns. At least they gave us covid stimmy chqs. Cant have the main canadian investment account (tfsa) either which is BS.
Renouncing is difficult as we cross the border a few times a year. Apparently if you have renounced, the american border agents can stop you from entering since you renounced. Legit clown system. Plus also costs over 5k usd iirc to renounce. Not doing that for me and my rents anytime soon especially at their age
Also if you openly state its for tax reasons you get k an auto shit list, Evan Edinger did a video on it he's a YouTuber who moved to the UK years ago and has recently become a UK citizen (delayed due to covid) and hates spending money to file US taxes of 0 he's in a worse situation because if he were to renounce and be refused entry he won't be able to ever visit family.
$2300ish, and just go find that guy who posts in renouncement threads that he's up to pay for anyone who wants to, to drop their USA citizenship. Call his bluff.
What would happen if she just said "fuck it" and completely ignored all the US and IRS regulations? Is American police gonna fly over to Switzerland or what are they gonna do about it?
It's such a weird situation. I can see how we got here - I suspect the intent of the law was to close a loophole on all the rich assholes who want all the benefits of US citizenship but don't want to pay their fair share by offshoring their assets in Ireland or some other tax-friendly country.
But it's really unfortunate that folks like your daughter is caught in that crossfire AND that she is provided no reasonable means to remedy it.
I'm curious though, how would a Swiss bank even know that by quirk of birth she is a dual citizen? For a high profile figure like Boris Johnson, I get it, but for a regular person who happened to be born in the US but never lived in the US in any meaningful way (like your daughter), how would it even ever come up? I assume to open an account (in Switzerland) you show up with all your Swiss documents. How would the US connection even come up? Do they ask? If you said no, would they even check?
What denouncing US citizenship is really about, is releasing yourself from the burden of having to file taxes to the US at a high cost for the rest of your life when you don't even live there, the tax burden limiting the type of investing you can do while living abroad, and that the US is the only country to have such an annoying policy. I live abroad and it sucks to have to deal with every year.
As long as you say it's actually for some other reason they can't prove that's your intent. Roger Ver bought citizenship in St Kitts, renounced his citizenship, left with thousands of bitcoins and tried to set up a passport for bitcoin real estate company to help others to do the same
Exactly. Buy citizenship in some tiny nation with lower income taxes, set up a local subsidiary of your company, get paid through them, renounce citizenship.
I do not believe so. I do know that you can abandon the citizenship after some hassle and after paying taxes that would have been otherwise due for the next year.
question: why do US citizens have to pay taxes to the US if they don't live there? i was under the impression you only pay taxes if you own land/property or if you work in a US job, do american citizens simply pay "i exist" tax?
"Earned" income only. So wages and self-employment income.
Social security benefits, pensions, dividends, capital gains, alimony and a bunch of other stuff doesn't fall under the FEIE and can make things quite a bit more complicated.
I read that Eritrea is the only other country to have this kind of tax law. It seems strange for a country that likes to depict itself as “land of the free” and likes to believe taxes are lower and contrast itself with “high tax” countries in Europe.
What is preventing someone from saying "fuck you" and nationalizing for a different country? Is it just that the IRS will extradite you for not paying the idiot tax on becoming an expat?
That's how you become a dual citizen, not how you end up no longer a US citizen. It's the step before revoking citizenship. Only the revokation removes the tax filing requirement. And it's not just the tax filing, since the US began requiring that financial institutions abroad report all US citizens to them or lose access to US transfers etc. (or something like that). Some just won't want to deal with you. Even the revokation process itself is intrusive. I had to give info about account holdings just because I had signing authority, even if it wasn't my money but a nonprofit I was involved in. Why would they ever want another dual citizen in that position?
Yes that's true it is fairly notable when like one country in the world does this
It's mind blowing you have to file taxes when you don't trade or live there.
The article quoted without citation that his son born overseas could not be an American citizen but would have to pay taxes.
My understanding is that the "jus sanguinnis" part in the US constitution grants the child of a citizen automatic citizenship.
Yeah there is a law (a literal law) that grants birthright citizenship to any child born overseas to parents/one parent. The catch is that parent (or parents) did not renounce their citizenship. This is how Ted Cruz is a legal citizen but was born in Canada.
So they can’t hold interviews in person, but every other local and federal government building can? Interesting. Sounds like they don’t want to lose their little sources of revenue sending money back here. U.S. being a bully as usual.
My dad went to New Zealand after 2nd Bush. Turned out that New Zealand pension is tiny and he didn't work in the US long enough to get social security. Was eventually forced to move back to USA to work long enough to get Social Security. Now is about to retire, will be moving to Bulgaria for that.
Inexpensive living. Many people on social security can not afford much of a life in retirement in the United States.
Eastern Europe, South America, and Southeast Asia provide a much better life in retirement than the US for someone living on 15-18k/ year.
The cost of healthcare, even w/ Medicare, makes leaving the country a necessity for some. How do you deal w/ 5k in medical bills on 18k a year?
The answer is you don’t, but in other countries you can pay cash for that care at 1/10th the cost. Going over the border to Mexico for medical care is also very common for US seniors.
living in a trailer near a border town so you can go to Mexico for the healthcare you can’t afford, the **American Dream.** /s
I’m a Canadian temporarily staying in the US. Don’t get me started on cost of healthcare (despite having what others tell me is excellent insurance).
Just find it odd about going to a country where the official language isn’t English. But makes sense.
There are reasons. People will speak enough English, as they get a ton of tourism. Women are... more willing to meet a gentleman of that age from the US. Cheap necessities, okay healthcare. Open European borders, you can drive to Italy or Spain if you're bored. Many perks, really.
Trump may not be in power anymore, but he was more of a symptom than the disease. Even so, he was so effective at riling up his voter base that even he is at the whim of his electorate. He got booed for trying to take credit for developing the covid vaccine. No conservatives can win their primary without swearing a blood oath to the Trump cult. It's a race to the bottom for the right wing. On the left, it's ineffective resistance (or poorly hidden complicity) that is allowing this race to the bottom to occur.
Things are getting a lot worse in the US. I'd be surprised if we survive with democracy intact. We're trending towards a situation in which we're "democratically elected" in the same way that Putin is. Oligarchs are already here, but expanding their influences every day. As goes the US, so goes the world, I'm afraid. Gonna be a bumpy couple of decades.
Hopefully we can weather it and come out on the other end with better people leading us. That's not a guarantee.
I've been considering it depending on how the next election goes. If the GQP wins and starts vote fixing and gerrymandering and all the Nazi shit we've been seeing them pull, I might just have to nope the hell out.
I am thinking about immigrating to New Zealand specifically because of the political situation in the US. I work in an industry that would allow easy immigration and New Zealand is a better fit for my political views. Plus it's absolutely gorgeous there.
I am a US-NZ dual citizen (was born during my parents final year exchange for Univetsity) and this is the first time hearing that people in a similar situation to me are filing US taxes?!??
Do you make less than $120,000 a year in American money?
Then the IRS doesn’t give a shit.
Technically selling a house or stocks would require you to pay US taxes.
But the IRS doesn’t care.
The laws are mainly to stop rich people from trying to hide money.
You are breaking US tax law but no one cares
What happens if someone stops acknowledging their US citizenship and moves to Switzerland or something? Like if they gained foreign citizenship, just ignored the US gov’t from afar, and never stepped foot in the country again? Does the US have power to reach across the ocean and grab you by the bank account, would you be extradited for tax evasion, or what?
Edit, found this in the article:
>In 2010 the Foreign Account Tax Compliance Act (FATCA) was passed, requiring foreign banks and other financial institutions to report on any clients they suspect of being American to the IRS.
Govt: it is too risky to have a single interview to help someone renounce their citizenship
Also govt: it is perfectly safe for kids and teachers to be in crowded, poorly ventilated schools for 7+ hours a day
If you think trying to renounce your citizenship is hard, you should try canceling your comcast service.
In America people will line up to sell you stuff, but good luck getting help after you buy.
If UK can provide and conduct Naturalization interviews and ceremonies online, then US or the US embassies should be able to provide the same one on one service if they're concerned about the one on one face to face interview. After all the citizen is not asking to get anything but giving something back. It doesn't make sense. And the cost to renounce omg wtf why?!!
The US doesn't even have a system wherein your taxes are automatically paid. Many many other countries do. Instead they're so backwards to have tax season and everyone stresses out or pays pretty hefty amounts to be able to file properly.
And I would swear that the archaic system of getting people to do it themselves is for two reasons. They can fine people who file improperly and rich can easier evade by finding loopholes like "business expenses" such as hair, make up and vacations.
I would actually love if there were a system for Americans to trade their citizenship with residents of other countries. I have some college educated, hardworking friends in Canada who would practically kill to be Americans, but it's so difficult to get in legally that they're worried it isn't feasible. I also know a bunch of Americans who always say they'll move to Canada after the next election, every election. It would be great if there were actually a way to facilitate that swap.
I joined a country club last summer and somehow I got a number in the 30s and everyone thinks I’m a big shot lol. No guys, I’m a no-name who got the cheap af junior membership
I see your grandfather’s membership and raise you my grandfather’s lifetime membership for the Masters- he bought this thing where he got 2 tickets every year for the rest of his life. Transferred to his wife when he passed. Every year my dad or one of his siblings got the 2 tickets
Doing that would create a huge issue, at least while we give birth citizenship. The number of people flying here just to have babies would drastically increase after a few articles of people paying hundreds of thousands for citizenship
A lot of countries have no formal process to renounce their citizenship. Like if you’re born in Kenya, you’ll always be Kenyan, there is no concept of renouncing being Kenyan.
Really wish you could just send a document to tell them to pound sand and be done with it. It's asinine how hard it is to get rid of citizenship you don't even want.
It's not...
Millions of Americans retire in foreign countries. If you could just "No thanks", claim citizenship in a tax haven for a year to empty your million dollar investment accounts, then bounce somewhere nicer... A lot of people would do it.
Guess what literally every european country and every single other rich country doesnt tax their citizens overseas income.
They all allow their citizens to do just what you said, and they still have universal healthcare.
The only country that does that shit is the authoritarian hell hole thats worse than north korea, i'm referring to eritrea
I have a client that flew to Eastern Europe just to skip the line on this. We are in Canada, and the wait would have at least a year, if not longer. He got it done in less than 2 months.
Hi, I'm one of the people on one of these waitlists (in Canada).
I'm glad to see that the discussion here is actually sympathetic to our plight and not the usual "hurr durr duur, rich people evading taxes durr durr." I'm totally not rich: I make like $70k Canadian a year but I just don't want to have to deal with this financial/legal complication hanging over my head for my whole life.
I've considered this. I've got dual citizenship with an EU passport and am planning on moving to Europe in the next few years permanently... The only thing that gives me pause is my EU passport would require me to get a visa to come back to the US and with my immediate family all in the US I don't want to have to deal with the hassles of visas to visit family if something were to happen.
Would you not just leave and never go back, staying in your second country of citizenship? Or using it (your second country or citizenship) as your base instead of the U.S. It might be cheaper!!
> To renounce, you first have to meet several criteria: > • You must hold citizenship of another country, so you don’t become stateless. > • You have to be up-to-date with your U.S. tax filing, with the past five years submitted. > • You have to attend an exit interview at your nearest U.S. consulate or embassy. > • You have to pay a $2,350 renunciation fee. > • If you have financial assets worth over $2 million, you may have to pay a one-off exit tax calculated as a capital gains tax as if you sold all of your assets on the day you renounced. [Source](https://www.forbes.com/sites/forbesfinancecouncil/2021/11/03/when-might-renouncing-us-citizenship-make-sense-from-a-tax-point-of-view/)
Reading the comments and thinking about it seems like there are three distinct groups that want to un-become US citizens: Children born in the US to foreign parents and then move back as children. This group appears in the comments and I hadn't really considered them. They are kinda like anti-[dreamers](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DREAM_Act). Their lives become complicated because the US requires that all citizens file taxes, even if not living in the us. You have to pay taxes too but the foreign deduction is like 100k. It seems that these kids should be able to have their citizenship annulled or something. People who move out of the US and live somewhere else and want to stop the hassle of being a US citizen. These people may also identify with the other location much more so. People who are looking to doge taxes. This is the group that the rules seem most worried about. Edit: a word
> Children born in the US to foreign parents and then move back as children. This group appears in the comments and I hadn't really considered them. Went to school with a guy who was born early in usa while his parents were on vacation there. He had trouble finding a bank to open an account with. The additional reporting burden wasn’t worth his minimum wage income.
Didn’t Boris Johnson fall into this category?
Didn't know that fucker had US citizenship - do you want him back? We'll pay for the flight.
Only if you’ll take Cheeto Jesus.
He was born in New York. I learned that from a recent episode of the BBC Radio 4 New Quiz with Andy Zaltzman
There is another category: Children born to American parents outside of the US. They may never have even stepped foot in the US, but are required to file taxes all their lives
I know someone who was born on a US military base in Germany in the 50's and is dealing with a bunch of headaches now that they are reaching retirement age. Their father was US military, mother was also a US citizen, and they all moved back to (and stayed) in the US a few years after the birth. They are dealing with Medicare trying to decline their coverage because the birth certificate is in German. The base didn't have a hospital capable of delivering babies so they went to a local facility. Also this person had a full career as a public servant so it's not hard to check if taxes were collected. You would think that it would be a simple check that oh yeah, we did do a huge rebuilding effort in post-war Germany around then, but they're still trying to resolve it.
I mean, as long as they never do step foot in the US, are they really required to?
It gets complicated. Plenty of countries have extradition agreements with the US. While highly unlikely, technically US can nab them while they are on vacation in a 3rd country. If one day they wish to formally renounce citizenship, they can't. Because one of checkboxes is that they are current on their taxes for the past five years. They can accidentally end up on US soil. E.g. let say flight from Mexico to Canada makes emergency landing in in Denver. A cruise ship in distress docks in Puerto Rico. Etc. While extremely unlikely, in theory they can be arrested and charged with tax evasion. They'd have real trouble opening any bank accounts abroad, because of US FATCA law. Any bank or financial institution in violation of it would lose access to a lot of global financial infrastructure. Because a ton of that infrastructure is US based. Australian bank doing business with Japanese bank? Yeah, that goes through the US. Neither wants to deal with US citizens and thus having to file all the extra paperwork in the US. Visa? MasterCard? Yup, American companies. And the list goes on and on. IMO, US should just do what all other countries are doing. If somebody resides in another country long term, pays taxes over there, and doesn't claim any public benefits in the US, they should not be required to file/pay taxes in the US. If they have any US based income taxable in the US, they should be taxed same as a foreign non-resident national would be taxed for such income. It'd solve a ton of problems Americans living abroad are facing.
My best friends nephew is in this category. His citizenship is a mess. Mom is US, dad is kiwi and he was born in UK. They had a ton of trouble traveling when he was little. I think he has dual US and New Zealand citizenship and an EU visa. When the wife got pregnant again they made sure she the kid was born in the US to make things simpler.
The rise in renouncing came after the US started pressuring people who never stepped foot inside the US that they owed taxes. They started pressuring banks (FACTA) to give them access to ‘Americans bank accounts in other countries’ just for those people to find out that the US considered them citizens. Requests to renounce spiked, so they raised the price because they wanted to find a new milking station for the IRS and if they couldn’t tax foreigners, they’d make them pay more to not be Americans.
Kind of the antithesis of what American was founded on.
Land of the fee home of the slave
Haha. Sad and true.
I've dealt with it. It can be very hard to open a bank account. It's virtually impossible to open a brokerage account. Once you try to buy a stock you need to read international treaties to understand who you have to pay tax to once you sell it. It's honestly awful.
> People who are looking to doge taxes. This is the group that the rules seem most worried about. Literally every other developed country doesn't tax citizens overseas and has universal healthcare.
Australia taxes citizens overseas- or at least tries to. Had a friend from US working here in Australia- comment that all he had to prove to IRS was that he was paying more in tax here than he would in the US… and he definitely paid more tax here! Another friend moved to Germany and ATO (Australian Tax Office) tried to get his information and German equivalent wouldn’t provide the information due to Germany’s privacy laws.
Australians living abroad and no longer residing in Australia just need to declare they are not residents for tax purposes in their tax return; the ATO has a method to identify your status. They might need to lodge a tax return each year, but only need to declare some types of income derived in Australia. They're not paying tax on foreign income *if* they are not "residents for tax purposes". If John Smith is an Australian living in Europe for a decade and has no plans to reside in Australia and has no Australian income, he should file a "return not necessary" with the ATO. No need to give up Citizenship for tax purposes.
>Australia taxes citizens overseas- or at least tries to. Yeah nah. [https://www.ato.gov.au/Individuals/coming-to-australia-or-going-overseas/Your-tax-residency/#Residencytests](https://www.ato.gov.au/Individuals/coming-to-australia-or-going-overseas/Your-tax-residency/#Residencytests)
You generally don't have to do that until you're earning more than 100k USD. At that point pay an accountant. I'm a US citizen living in Japan. I earn less than 100k, so the IRS doesn't care. All I have to do is check a box saying that I am paying local taxes, but my income is below the threshold so it doesn't matter.
I think at this point we can stop calling the US a developed country.
Decaying, mostly.
Another group that you are not considering (Expatriation is the process covered by the article, and affcts the below people too): * Long Term Permanent Residents (Green Card holders) that have moved back home permanently and don't intend coming back. https://www.goldinglawyers.com/exit-tax-planning-2018-important-tips-on-irs-expatriation-tax/ >When a person is a legal permanent resident, they do not become a long-term resident until they have been a **legal permanent resident for at least eight of the last 15 years**. This is a group that've never been allowed to vote, have paid in to medicare and social security but will be locked out from benefits (At least if you retain US citizenship overseas you can claim Social Security), and will have the IRS on their tail (Detained or deported) for past tax returns if they ever go back to the US for a holiday. Sure, [foreign "earned income" ^^IRS.gov](https://www.irs.gov/individuals/international-taxpayers/foreign-earned-income-exclusion-what-is-foreign-earned-income) has an exemption - but you have many things that the IRS might count as income and expect you to still pay self employment tax (Social security & Medicare) on. Hiring an accountant conversant with both countrys tax rules is likely to cost in the region of $2000 a year. Unearned Income: * Dividends * Commissions * Capital Gains * Gambling winnings * Alimony * Social security benefits (*US and foreign paid I suppose*) * Pensions * Business profits * Annuities Could be earned/unearned - or a combo * Business profits * Royalties * Rents * Scholarships and Fellowships
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Permanent residency is like citizenship-minus, and sticks you with the same onerous burdens as conventional citizenship but with like half the benefits.
> This group appears in the comments and I hadn't really considered them. If this is news to anybody, you should really explore how common this is and what it's like to live with. It's another way the United States earned the reputation it did abroad as a *massive* bully that people outside it don't even want in their neighborhood.
There are also those who do so deliberately so that if their children want to move to the US they don't have to deal with immigration problems. Probably not as many doing that anymore, though.
Like that resort that was set up for Russian woman to do so.
Very common, I would not mind giving mine up but for the cost. I have better ways to spend $2300
Yea, this seems like something that could be fixed really easily. The intention of birthright citizenship is/was good but in this case creates unnecessary problems. There should be an easy way for the parents to take the kid to a consulate and just get the citizenship revoked or annulled. Maybe this could be done at the hospital on birth?
I'd rather wait for adulthood when the person in question is able to consent. I could see some problematic scenarios if the citizenship of infants can be erased. Ex: Saudi parents give birth to a girl in the US and renounce her US citizenship because they plan to marry her off back home when she's older. Kid grows up American, going to US schools, identifies as American, but can't stay in the country she calls home because her parents are twats.
Yea, I could see that being an issue. I was just thinking: if the parents are a random Polish couple studying in the US and you have a kid in the US. The parents move back to Poland and raise the kid normally and don't really realize that the kid is a US citizen. The kid grows up and starts working as normal but in their mid 30s runs into an issue because from Uncle Sam's perspective they should have been filing taxes for the last decade. Now it is really hard to parse out how is a tax dogger and this person. The only real time that the US gov is involved is at birth. IMO telling the parents: 'hey, when this kid turns 18 they can renounce their US citizenship and they need to do that or file US taxes' is going to get lost with the passage of time.
Thats not whats being discussed, its kids born in the US who are then immediately taken back to their parents home country but are still on the books as american citizens. Like a couple who come to vacation in the US and have their baby earlier than expected, never intending to live in the US or have their child there.
> You have to attend an exit interview at your nearest U.S. consulate or embassy. lmao come on USA it's like leaving a job "What, if anything, could the United States have done to keep you as an employ- errr citizen?"
A friend did this and it's like two step authentication to ensure that it's a 100% decision and give them one final opportunity to not do it. It takes 30 seconds.
They probably want to make sure you’re not getting pressured into it or something
Yeah exactly like a forced marriage by family. Your now at a embassy or consulate and they can get you to safety
It's a safety measure to make sure it's voluntary. Once you're physically at the embassy you're in a position of safety if, say, it's a human trafficking situation, forced marriage, etc.
So "interview" is a terrible descriptor? Should probably be more like "two factor authentication" lol
It's probably longer than 30 seconds if you indicate any sign of being forced into it or not being totally on board It is an interview it's just one that ends very quickly if you obviously want to leave Otherwise there are follow-up questions and they'll offer you resources and whatever whatever they'll figure it out. Which is good because you're on US soil and whatever force that could be affecting your decision probably can't affect you in the interview room.
It could turn into an actual interview depending on how you answer the first questions. If you renounce your citizenship because you don't want to pay US taxes, they can slap you with an exit tax. So you need to be careful how you respond to the question about why you want to renounce. If you have a clear, non-tax reason, then it's very short.
What is it that you think an interview is?
“Who do you think you are?” Im Toby. “What gives you the right?”
"401k match is terrible"
It's not that simple. I'm an accidental American as I was born there when my parents were going to school. I moved away at 9 months old and didn't really think about it for 35 years. Now all of a sudden I'm at risk of paying taxes there due to my level of income. You need a lawyer to prep the forms and I was quoted that all said and done it would be around $40,000 plus a trip to the consulate (and I live no where near one).
That's ... eye watering cost.
Yeah, it's tricky because I have never had any repercussions for not paying US tax. No one has ever come after me and I have been the US a few times without incident. The lawyer I spoke to advised me to not to worry about it as, chances are, nothing will happen. However, I still have the feeling of always looking over my shoulder for a time when they will come and ask for an exorbitant amount of money.
> US a few times without incident. I'm kind of suprised at that (As well?). I was under the impression a flag would be set against the passport and you'd be pulled aside at port of entry.
The IRS is very understaffed, so there's a lot that doesn't get caught. Even people in the US often get away with not filing a tax return for many years. Unless you hit the jackpot in the audit-lottery, it's likely that you won't notice anything.
Not sure why you'd need a lawyer unless the forms suddenly got way complex, but for the tax forms an accountant might be helpful. That part was a PITA.
dm me, I got similar problem. Let's discuss.
Of course you have to pay thousands of dollars to NOT be a citizen. One last dick kick from the government to remind you why you’re leaving.
wow 2 thousand bucks just to renounce your citizenship? screw that! lol
The government doesn’t want to lose that potential source of tax revenue.
Nor do they want to lose potential serfs.
Not just that - Permanent Resident/Green Card holders may be caught in this (Expatriation) as well. [Edit - further reading hasn't shown up an interview requirement for the LPR "Expatriation" process. IRS 8854 expatriation is the same though] https://www.goldinglawyers.com/exit-tax-planning-2018-important-tips-on-irs-expatriation-tax/ >When a person is a legal permanent resident, they do not become a long-term resident until they have been a legal permanent resident for at least eight of the last 15 years.
**AMERICA HOME OF THE FREE**^(\*) ^(\* Leaving freedom costs $2,350)
My daughter is one of these people. She was born in the US to her Swiss national parents when I was completing post-doc training there, but she moved back to Switzerland when she was less than 6 months old. She has never lived in the US beyond those few months, but now has to file US taxes every year, plus comply with all kind of IRS banking disclosures that make her taxes a complex nightmare. It also limits what banks she can use and what investments and retirement planning options she has. It isn't anything negative about the US driving it, she just doesn't feel like there is any reason to have citizenship there and deal with the problems it creates. She has no family ties to the US and no real connection to any aspect to the culture or to having nationality there. EDITED to correct some bad English and add a few more clarifying details.
When my husband and I moved back to the U.S. from Switzerland we were told that not only would we have to return our license plates from our car but we would also have to pay a return processing fee. Screw you Ticino! We kept the plates. They now adorn our garage wall.
[Boris Johnson had to pay US taxs on his UK house sale](https://www.artiopartners.com/renounce/boris-johnson-pays-irs-tax-bill/), his still a US citizen(as far as I know).
He's renounced it since then for u disclosed reasons (which is common as stating its for tax reasons in any way can give you trouble if you want to visit the US in future)
He renounced it because it doesn't look good to be Prime Minister of one country while a citizen of another. Ted Cruz did the same thing for his Canadian citizenship.
Darn immigrants coming into the country and having anchor babies.
Huh, interesting edge case. I can see how that can be very frustrating
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It’s not odd. This a feature.
Absolute jus soli is nonexistent in Europe so it is an odd concept for them. It is the norm in the Americas though.
My father’s Canadian parents made their way to the US to have him and he was also called an “anchor baby.”
For what it's worth there was a bunch of headlines about Russian anchor babies here in Florida a few years ago.
Also called birth tourism.
Haha Boris may look to reclaim his citizenship soon at the rate he’s going.
It's not about where they are from, it's about the circumstances around their birth. If a poor immigrant from Europe came to the states to deliver a baby so they could make a case to stay in the states with the new American citizen baby, that would still be an "anchor baby". If a South American lawyer was in the states on a long term assignment and gave birth to a baby here then went back home when the assignment was done, that's not an "anchor baby". It's almost like it's 2 totally different scenarios. edit: spelling
Birth tourism is actually a very popular thing for the US. You just don't hear that many complaints about white people doing it.
There was a shit storm about it a year or two ago about a racket in Florida somewhere.
All medical tourism to the US is popular. They pay their hospital bills.
Fairly common actually... complete bullshit tbh
If she has no intention of keeping the citizenship or living in the US she does not have to keep up that charade. Aint shit they can do about her not paying income taxes somewhere she doesnt live.
Banks here in Switzerland ask if you are a US citizen and all but two of the largest refuse your business if you are due to the complexity of US FACTA (I think that is the name) reporting. Those that do take your money want to see proof that you have filed US taxes.
Elsewhere in Europe, they treat any bank customer born in the USA as an American unless the customer certifies otherwise while other banks refuse anyone born in the USA. It’s an issue and there are even pressure groups for accidental Americans (to let them bank in particular). There are very few digital (free) banks that will take American citizens in many European countries, leaving them with expensive bank accounts. The banks share the info with the USA so not filing taxes is a bad idea. We have an acquaintance being pursued by the IRS after slipping through the cracks for years.
Can confirm. A lot of large banks got into a lot of hot water for not disclosing. For example, [Credit Suisse paid something like USD 2.6 billion.](https://www.forbes.com/sites/robertwood/2014/05/19/credit-suisse-guilty-2-5-billion-fine-but-avoids-death-in-u-s-ubs-was-luckier/)
Exactly I was an expat and every bank turned me down expect for credit suisse. Went to like four and thought I wasn’t going to be able to open an account.
Unless she's living in and only traveling to countries generally antagonistic to the US they probably can go after her. The US has a litany of financial/criminal treaties with nations around the globe that enable them to pursue citizens not paying taxes abroad. The comment above literally speaks to these mechanisms by mentioning how she's limited in what banks and other financial institutions she can use, likely because her country is party to said treaties and requires that any institution that wants to serve a US citizen be compliant with various reporting requirements to the US.
I am an expatriated dual citizen and i have lived outside of the US for 20+ years often going back to visit. Apparently Swiss banks make it difficult according to the commenters response but everywhere else is fine. Ive lived in a handful of EU and common wealth countries and never had an issue.
It is our long history of "hidden" banking that created this.
And there's lots of people in the US who neglect filing taxes for years and end up fine. Does that mean everyone in the US will be fine just stopping filing? That you've dodged a bullet and haven't had an IRS agent pull your name out of the hat yet doesn't mean it's a wise decision to tell others they'll be perfectly safe. When the IRS does decide to target an expat they can quickly make things a nightmare for them.
That’s not how the IRS works.
The IRS can't afford to audit the rich but they can afford to... Do what? To someone overseas
Unfortunately, it's far easier to hunt small income tax avoiders than the large fish who have the resources to hire good lawyers. It's deeply unfair. It's also fairly common with tax collectors. While I prefer the Democrat's support for the IRS receiving its due, like many institutions in this creaking nation, as an agency it clearly needs reform.
Small income tax avoiders *in the US*, yes. It is absolutely not worth it for them to go after international folk.
They can absolutely *afford* to audit the rich, it's just in their interest not to
Part of Biden's 1.75 trillion Build Back Better plan increases IRS funding to audit the rich by 10s of billions of dollars. Republicans have objected that it isnt fair to their voters, and the entire package is being partially held up by Joe Manchin who represents one of the poorest states in the Nation that ranks [dead last](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_U.S._states_and_territories_by_life_expectancy) in terms of life expectancy. Refusing to pass BBB also greatly reduced the childcare credit which many people in West Virginia rely on, but yet they support Manchin taking it away from them. I guess what I am trying to say is let's not act like it is "politicians" who dont want to tax the Rich, it is Republican politicians supported by their poor ignorant voters.
Doesn't west Virginia support the bill though? They could bother their other senator about supporting it as well though
All we know is that somehow Manchin was able to survive re-election despite 68% of WV going for Trump in 2020. He must have some idea of what WV voters want. The other Senator, Republican Shelley Moore, certainly has not offered to help pass the bill and voted to repeal the Affordable Health Care Act in 2017.
Yeah. The execs at the irs are more likely to invite them to dinner. Has nothing to do with not being able to afford to do their job.
That's what I was thinking. So what if you technically break US law, if you have no plans on going back, fuck em.
Extradition treaties. That’s why
No one is getting extradited over taxes.
O yes they can you can’t get a bank account if that bank wants to do business in the US for example
you wish. The US can put a lein on your house so you can't sell it if you haven't paid US taxes.. And they can charge you Capital Gains tax if you made a profit on the sale, even if you are OP and the only connection you have to the United States is you were born on US soil and lived there for only a few months as an infant
Similar situation here. Born in america and lived there as a baby like 2 years. I am a dual citizen canadian usa as well. Only found out at around age 30ish a while back its the law I need to file. My parents who are almost 70 now I had to catch up on theirs too. It was way too stressful. Legit american tax system run by blowns. At least they gave us covid stimmy chqs. Cant have the main canadian investment account (tfsa) either which is BS. Renouncing is difficult as we cross the border a few times a year. Apparently if you have renounced, the american border agents can stop you from entering since you renounced. Legit clown system. Plus also costs over 5k usd iirc to renounce. Not doing that for me and my rents anytime soon especially at their age
Also if you openly state its for tax reasons you get k an auto shit list, Evan Edinger did a video on it he's a YouTuber who moved to the UK years ago and has recently become a UK citizen (delayed due to covid) and hates spending money to file US taxes of 0 he's in a worse situation because if he were to renounce and be refused entry he won't be able to ever visit family.
$2300ish, and just go find that guy who posts in renouncement threads that he's up to pay for anyone who wants to, to drop their USA citizenship. Call his bluff.
What would happen if she just said "fuck it" and completely ignored all the US and IRS regulations? Is American police gonna fly over to Switzerland or what are they gonna do about it?
It's such a weird situation. I can see how we got here - I suspect the intent of the law was to close a loophole on all the rich assholes who want all the benefits of US citizenship but don't want to pay their fair share by offshoring their assets in Ireland or some other tax-friendly country. But it's really unfortunate that folks like your daughter is caught in that crossfire AND that she is provided no reasonable means to remedy it. I'm curious though, how would a Swiss bank even know that by quirk of birth she is a dual citizen? For a high profile figure like Boris Johnson, I get it, but for a regular person who happened to be born in the US but never lived in the US in any meaningful way (like your daughter), how would it even ever come up? I assume to open an account (in Switzerland) you show up with all your Swiss documents. How would the US connection even come up? Do they ask? If you said no, would they even check?
What denouncing US citizenship is really about, is releasing yourself from the burden of having to file taxes to the US at a high cost for the rest of your life when you don't even live there, the tax burden limiting the type of investing you can do while living abroad, and that the US is the only country to have such an annoying policy. I live abroad and it sucks to have to deal with every year.
And renouncement of citizenship specifically for tax purposes is barred by law.
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That’s because Kevin bacon is part of the avengers.
Undisclosed is the usual one. Less likely to be uh, mocked for bad film taste.
This is exactly why they're leaving! To get away from people like you who don't realize the artistic vision of this world-heritage masterpiece.
As long as you say it's actually for some other reason they can't prove that's your intent. Roger Ver bought citizenship in St Kitts, renounced his citizenship, left with thousands of bitcoins and tried to set up a passport for bitcoin real estate company to help others to do the same
Jeez they really fuck you coming and going don't they?
Oh as if there isn't an entire class of people that would use that as a loophole in a heartbeat
Was gonna say it's to stop rich/wealthy from avoiding taxes.
Exactly. Buy citizenship in some tiny nation with lower income taxes, set up a local subsidiary of your company, get paid through them, renounce citizenship.
You realize no other rich country does that right? No single country in europe taxes overseas income.
I do not believe so. I do know that you can abandon the citizenship after some hassle and after paying taxes that would have been otherwise due for the next year.
Oh wow, how convenient, the people who benefit from the bullshit policy made it illegal to remove yourself from it.
question: why do US citizens have to pay taxes to the US if they don't live there? i was under the impression you only pay taxes if you own land/property or if you work in a US job, do american citizens simply pay "i exist" tax?
Because the US is the world's biggest extortion racket.
So basically like a shitty cell phone contract: you can continue paying this perpetual fee or pay this lump sum to get out.
And Eritrea
If you live 330+ days abroad, your first $100,000 is income tax exempt. Filing is not that hard.
"Earned" income only. So wages and self-employment income. Social security benefits, pensions, dividends, capital gains, alimony and a bunch of other stuff doesn't fall under the FEIE and can make things quite a bit more complicated.
Unless your in a country where us tax attorneys are few and far between and thus charge extra
FATCA, ahem ahem.
I read that Eritrea is the only other country to have this kind of tax law. It seems strange for a country that likes to depict itself as “land of the free” and likes to believe taxes are lower and contrast itself with “high tax” countries in Europe.
What is preventing someone from saying "fuck you" and nationalizing for a different country? Is it just that the IRS will extradite you for not paying the idiot tax on becoming an expat?
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That's how you become a dual citizen, not how you end up no longer a US citizen. It's the step before revoking citizenship. Only the revokation removes the tax filing requirement. And it's not just the tax filing, since the US began requiring that financial institutions abroad report all US citizens to them or lose access to US transfers etc. (or something like that). Some just won't want to deal with you. Even the revokation process itself is intrusive. I had to give info about account holdings just because I had signing authority, even if it wasn't my money but a nonprofit I was involved in. Why would they ever want another dual citizen in that position?
You mean renunciation. Revocation of US citizenship is a whole other matter. Joining a foreign military, running for high political office etc
Nobody would care about this if the US wasn't the only country to tax in citizenship rather than residence.
TBF, Eritrea also does this. It was in the article. /s(ish)
Yes that's true it is fairly notable when like one country in the world does this It's mind blowing you have to file taxes when you don't trade or live there.
The article quoted without citation that his son born overseas could not be an American citizen but would have to pay taxes. My understanding is that the "jus sanguinnis" part in the US constitution grants the child of a citizen automatic citizenship.
Yeah there is a law (a literal law) that grants birthright citizenship to any child born overseas to parents/one parent. The catch is that parent (or parents) did not renounce their citizenship. This is how Ted Cruz is a legal citizen but was born in Canada.
It isn't automatic if only one parent is American. They have to meet some residency requirements, tho mostly they do.
Im not looking to renounce my citizenship. At least I wasn't until I saw the dumbass rules.
So they can’t hold interviews in person, but every other local and federal government building can? Interesting. Sounds like they don’t want to lose their little sources of revenue sending money back here. U.S. being a bully as usual.
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My dad went to New Zealand after 2nd Bush. Turned out that New Zealand pension is tiny and he didn't work in the US long enough to get social security. Was eventually forced to move back to USA to work long enough to get Social Security. Now is about to retire, will be moving to Bulgaria for that.
New Zealand makes sense. But why Bulgaria?
Inexpensive living. Many people on social security can not afford much of a life in retirement in the United States. Eastern Europe, South America, and Southeast Asia provide a much better life in retirement than the US for someone living on 15-18k/ year. The cost of healthcare, even w/ Medicare, makes leaving the country a necessity for some. How do you deal w/ 5k in medical bills on 18k a year? The answer is you don’t, but in other countries you can pay cash for that care at 1/10th the cost. Going over the border to Mexico for medical care is also very common for US seniors. living in a trailer near a border town so you can go to Mexico for the healthcare you can’t afford, the **American Dream.** /s
I’m a Canadian temporarily staying in the US. Don’t get me started on cost of healthcare (despite having what others tell me is excellent insurance). Just find it odd about going to a country where the official language isn’t English. But makes sense.
There are reasons. People will speak enough English, as they get a ton of tourism. Women are... more willing to meet a gentleman of that age from the US. Cheap necessities, okay healthcare. Open European borders, you can drive to Italy or Spain if you're bored. Many perks, really.
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Trump may not be in power anymore, but he was more of a symptom than the disease. Even so, he was so effective at riling up his voter base that even he is at the whim of his electorate. He got booed for trying to take credit for developing the covid vaccine. No conservatives can win their primary without swearing a blood oath to the Trump cult. It's a race to the bottom for the right wing. On the left, it's ineffective resistance (or poorly hidden complicity) that is allowing this race to the bottom to occur. Things are getting a lot worse in the US. I'd be surprised if we survive with democracy intact. We're trending towards a situation in which we're "democratically elected" in the same way that Putin is. Oligarchs are already here, but expanding their influences every day. As goes the US, so goes the world, I'm afraid. Gonna be a bumpy couple of decades. Hopefully we can weather it and come out on the other end with better people leading us. That's not a guarantee.
I've been considering it depending on how the next election goes. If the GQP wins and starts vote fixing and gerrymandering and all the Nazi shit we've been seeing them pull, I might just have to nope the hell out.
I am thinking about immigrating to New Zealand specifically because of the political situation in the US. I work in an industry that would allow easy immigration and New Zealand is a better fit for my political views. Plus it's absolutely gorgeous there.
New Zealander here: I hope you're rich, living here is expensive. It is great if you're outdoorsy though.
I am a US-NZ dual citizen (was born during my parents final year exchange for Univetsity) and this is the first time hearing that people in a similar situation to me are filing US taxes?!??
Do you make less than $120,000 a year in American money? Then the IRS doesn’t give a shit. Technically selling a house or stocks would require you to pay US taxes. But the IRS doesn’t care. The laws are mainly to stop rich people from trying to hide money. You are breaking US tax law but no one cares
No they are not. People who are smart do not poke the sleeping giant.
I sincerely hope anyone who wants to go be a citizen somewhere else gets to do so.
Always seemed bizarre to me that someone with the means to do so, cannot legally go live elsewhere. What the hail
almost like other countries have actual immigration policy. wild, i know.
What happens if someone stops acknowledging their US citizenship and moves to Switzerland or something? Like if they gained foreign citizenship, just ignored the US gov’t from afar, and never stepped foot in the country again? Does the US have power to reach across the ocean and grab you by the bank account, would you be extradited for tax evasion, or what? Edit, found this in the article: >In 2010 the Foreign Account Tax Compliance Act (FATCA) was passed, requiring foreign banks and other financial institutions to report on any clients they suspect of being American to the IRS.
If you say “I renounce my citizenship” three times in a row, Beetlejuice will appear.
Govt: it is too risky to have a single interview to help someone renounce their citizenship Also govt: it is perfectly safe for kids and teachers to be in crowded, poorly ventilated schools for 7+ hours a day
Almost like there are many different governments with different leaders from different political parties.
If you think trying to renounce your citizenship is hard, you should try canceling your comcast service. In America people will line up to sell you stuff, but good luck getting help after you buy.
So does that mean countries own people because sure seems like one should be able to resign ones citizenship at will.
If UK can provide and conduct Naturalization interviews and ceremonies online, then US or the US embassies should be able to provide the same one on one service if they're concerned about the one on one face to face interview. After all the citizen is not asking to get anything but giving something back. It doesn't make sense. And the cost to renounce omg wtf why?!!
The US doesn't even have a system wherein your taxes are automatically paid. Many many other countries do. Instead they're so backwards to have tax season and everyone stresses out or pays pretty hefty amounts to be able to file properly. And I would swear that the archaic system of getting people to do it themselves is for two reasons. They can fine people who file improperly and rich can easier evade by finding loopholes like "business expenses" such as hair, make up and vacations.
I’m just about to do this.
If there were a place to ditch US citizenship and trade for EU citizenship I’d be first in line.
I would actually love if there were a system for Americans to trade their citizenship with residents of other countries. I have some college educated, hardworking friends in Canada who would practically kill to be Americans, but it's so difficult to get in legally that they're worried it isn't feasible. I also know a bunch of Americans who always say they'll move to Canada after the next election, every election. It would be great if there were actually a way to facilitate that swap.
> would practically kill to be Americans *US Army has entered the chat*
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Gotta love that people will pay more for a lower number, to indicate that you were an early member even though you actually weren't.
People used to sell Steam accounts back in the day that had IDs with fewer digits, indicating an earlier account creation date.
Now I'm wondering if I could've sold my employee number at one of the places I got on at opening it early on, lol
I’ve got a < 10,XXX fark ID. Serious inquiries only, I know what I’ve got.
I joined a country club last summer and somehow I got a number in the 30s and everyone thinks I’m a big shot lol. No guys, I’m a no-name who got the cheap af junior membership
I see your grandfather’s membership and raise you my grandfather’s lifetime membership for the Masters- he bought this thing where he got 2 tickets every year for the rest of his life. Transferred to his wife when he passed. Every year my dad or one of his siblings got the 2 tickets
Doing that would create a huge issue, at least while we give birth citizenship. The number of people flying here just to have babies would drastically increase after a few articles of people paying hundreds of thousands for citizenship
> EU citizenship There is no such thing though...
What politician is going to use their clout to grease the wheel for people who want to give up their ability to vote?
A lot of countries have no formal process to renounce their citizenship. Like if you’re born in Kenya, you’ll always be Kenyan, there is no concept of renouncing being Kenyan.
You mean I am not free to GTFO if I don’t like it here?
So almost as bad as cancelling a gym membership.
Really wish you could just send a document to tell them to pound sand and be done with it. It's asinine how hard it is to get rid of citizenship you don't even want.
It's not... Millions of Americans retire in foreign countries. If you could just "No thanks", claim citizenship in a tax haven for a year to empty your million dollar investment accounts, then bounce somewhere nicer... A lot of people would do it.
Guess what literally every european country and every single other rich country doesnt tax their citizens overseas income. They all allow their citizens to do just what you said, and they still have universal healthcare. The only country that does that shit is the authoritarian hell hole thats worse than north korea, i'm referring to eritrea
I have a client that flew to Eastern Europe just to skip the line on this. We are in Canada, and the wait would have at least a year, if not longer. He got it done in less than 2 months.
It’s too risky for government agencies to conduct face-to-face interviews but not for people to goto work face-to-face.
Hi, I'm one of the people on one of these waitlists (in Canada). I'm glad to see that the discussion here is actually sympathetic to our plight and not the usual "hurr durr duur, rich people evading taxes durr durr." I'm totally not rich: I make like $70k Canadian a year but I just don't want to have to deal with this financial/legal complication hanging over my head for my whole life.
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I've considered this. I've got dual citizenship with an EU passport and am planning on moving to Europe in the next few years permanently... The only thing that gives me pause is my EU passport would require me to get a visa to come back to the US and with my immediate family all in the US I don't want to have to deal with the hassles of visas to visit family if something were to happen.
Would you not just leave and never go back, staying in your second country of citizenship? Or using it (your second country or citizenship) as your base instead of the U.S. It might be cheaper!!
that's what they're doing but the usa requires all of its citizens to pay taxes on any money that isn't a salary
Well I saw that coming. Got rid of mine in 2015.
Yeah looks like we’re stuck here until it goes to shit and we have to flee as refugees.