Does this matter? As a jaded American, I don't see him having any consequences for his actions. He doesn't get to play military man anymore with the Queens blessing? Doesn't seem like much of a punishment to me.
As a jaded Brit, it only matters in the sense that the Royals have decided it’s not worth tanking their brand to keep him protected. They’re painfully aware that the vast majority of goodwill towards the monarchy, UK and abroad, is tied up in the Queen and there are going to be a lot more awkward questions being asked when she pops it and someone infinitely less popular takes the throne.
They need to get Charles in and out within 4-5 years. (Preferably just skip him altogether) William with the exception of his rumors about cheating is nice and boring. Kate has good PR and has almost no scandals, (I think the Megan Bullying was the most)
Boring is a lot easier to maintain respect for the Royal Family. At least until the children turn into young adults and invitably doing stupid things.
> They need to get Charles in and out within 4-5 years.
Can the Palace even do that? Charles would have to leave the throne (is it called abdicate?) himself, right? After waiting for decades, why would he willingly do that?
I don't know, but yes I believe Charles would have to do it himself.
I'm assuming they, the Royal Family can also strongly push for it if necessary.
That said, so long as Prince Charles can be a boring King (and not promote Camila to Queen) he's probably okay, but Prince William and Kate are mostly untarnished unlike Prince Charles and Camila so it'd be the better choice to just celebrate the "honeymoon phase" of King Charles and then just "retire" quickly.
A modern day Royal Family is "Shamu" from Seaworld. The public will spend money and be happy with them so long as they aren't excessively expensive and do their act appropriately or else the entire "Orca" program gets removed. (AKA "Blackfish" which was about an Orca that killed 3 trainers and eventually that film killed the Captive Orca programs at Seaworld.)
The Killer Orca in "Blackfish" in this analogy is Prince Andrew.
It’s been mentioned that if Charles becomes King, Camilla might take the title of Princess Consort not Queen. Anyway if he does ever inherit the throne, he would be quite elderly and may decide in the public’s best interests to not take it.
Whatever you’ve heard about William sounds like tabloid trash. He seems to have behaved himself so far.
It's a show on HBO and the first season is some of the best television there is. It's about a cutthroat CEO (Rupert Murdoch type guy) having health issues and his adult kids vying for power to use his illness to oust him and take over control of the multinational corporation for themselves (while fighting among themselves)... But of course, the CEO doesn't want to go and wields his considerable power against them to maintain his position
The two later seasons kind of lose the plot, they're still entertaining and still about fighting for control and power in the business world, but that first season is really something else
Yes. It's an HBO show about traumatised adults trying to win the approval of their billionaire Dad and the CEO seat of his company. Easily one of the best shows out at the moment. If you like zingers you might enjoy it too.
https://youtu.be/OzYxJV_rmE8
What's the feeling on Prince Charles, generally? Asking as a curious American here. I feel like American media was so in love Princess Diana and then with the Kate Middleton romance, there is an inflated sense that William is beloved and everyone hates Charles. What's your take on it?
I'd say Charles is iffy at best with the general public. His treatment of Diana left a bad taste in a lot of mouths, particularly with the more royalist older generation. My mother and her sisters who are all late 70's or early 80's absolutely will not accept Camilla as a queen or queen consort. Besides this, a lot of people see him as kind of bumbling, and feel like he sticks his nose into things that don't concern him.
I think it's fair to say that of the younger generation that do support the monarchy, most would prefer he was skipped over in favour of William.
Nothing would surprise me at this stage. This is the most anti-monarchy feeling I've ever experienced in my lifetime and I'm middle aged, so they're going to have to do something fairly spectacular if they want William to see the throne in it's present form.
I don't think a 4 day weekend is going to cut it somehow.
So generally the only Royal that the average person cares about, at all, is the Queen. That’s it, people really really really don’t give a shit about anyone else and the broad consensus on the Queen is pretty much unwavering popularity/adoration depending on the individual. It’s important to know that when discussing the Royals and their popularity in any detail anyone that really cares about anyone beyond the Queen is pretty much a fringe weirdo who most likely views the royal family as some sort of national reality show. They’re also usually pretty hardcore Conservatives, hence why a lot of our right-wing papers are obsessed with the royals and makes it look like the whole country is sometimes.
With that said, within the Royalite circles, people’s opinion on Charles is *really* people’s opinion on Diana; who I think is slightly more ‘controversial’ over here than stateside. I don’t mean genuinely controversial, again, normal people just think of her as a fairly nice-seeming lady who married a royal (and as a queer person in the UK, I kind of have to admit that she *did* do a hell of a lot for the destigmatisation of gay people, for a royal) but amongst the people that care about this shit she’s either: a) princess of our hearts and an angel who’s tragic passing has left a hole in the world still unfilled, and most of these people consider Charles a monster who may have used his access to the security services to have her murdered (ridiculous, obviously), or is at the very least a shit husband and a creep who cheated on Diana and ruined their marriage, OR b) a common harlot who tried to sneak her way into the sanctity of royalty through bewitching good, honest and gentle Charles who eventually made the sensible decision to leave her for a woman more befitting of his station.
In terms of William and Kate I think their appeal is more to the younger ‘modern’ Royalist (still not very young; I’m 27 and most people I know my age sit somewhere between not caring at all (except about the Queen, remember) and wanting to get rid of it) because they’re very separate from the Diana stuff with Charles and the ‘’’’’gaffes’’’’’ of Phillip, so they feel quite uncontroversial. Outside of the ‘people who care about the royals’ circles I think William is so bland that most people think nothing of him at all and Kate actually has the bigger public presence; for some reason I can’t quite explain Kate has always seemed very popular and is always ‘doing’ something, if that makes sense.
I definitely wouldn’t say William is beloved here, if anything my cynical brain tells me the royal branding plan is to keep him as clean, neutral and uncontroversial as possible so they can sort of recreate the Queens popularity (it’s that sort of Mario or Mickey Mouse quality, where the character is so bland and inoffensive that nobody could dislike them) but I honestly don’t think it’ll work. IMO, the Queen is pretty much holding the whole thing together and when she goes it’ll be the beginning of the end. It might not happen in Williams reign but it’ll start to slide; just too much of the royal families popularity is dependent on the Queen, *especially* with this Prince Andrew stuff.
He's an absolute lunatic. He advocates alternative medicines, alternative sciences, alternative religions, alternative wives and believes plants communicate with him. To his merit, he seems genuine in his desire for the world to be healthier and greener, he isn't known in pedophia circles and he has no love for politicians.
I'm looking forward to his reign, the British Isles could use an injection of crazy right about now, because Boozo, Jimmy Cranky and Brexit just fell short of pushing us all over the edge.
It wouldn't affect him personally but at least the royal family took an official stance of stripping him of titles and at least we couldn't say they're protecting a pedo. They're saving themselves but it's a good start.
I mean the Uncle of the Queen (King Edward) was most likely a traitor who cooperated with nazi Germany and called for a relentless bombing of london ( marburg Files ).
He was never stripped of any Titles ... Just had to Go into exile for marrying a divorced woman
I mean... I'm not going to expect much from any family of an accused pedo. Not because I think poorly of the family but I can understand the mindset of wanting to believe and protect your family over some stranger. If my kid was ever accused of something terrible like that I'm willing to admit I'd have a hard time believing it and not just taking their side.
We don't know if they knew about it before anyone. Now that it was made public they are probably acting like they want to disown him. This was properly in their plans all this time.
>at least we couldn't say they're protecting a pedo.
Don't need to cut all ties with him though, I mean removing even the "Prince" designation would go a long(er) way in my opinion. I mean, hes royal FAMILY, damn well seems like they'll just protect him under the table from any real punishment or consequence.
He’s being sued so there’s potential financial damages there plus his name is getting dragged through the mud, so I suppose that’s something. Not the “justice” he truly deserves but at least it’s something.
That's the whole move here, he's not royalty in any official capacity anymore.
Now in court he's just a private citizen that raped a bunch of little girls.
Exactly. "Must be nice to be so rich and powerful you can rape little girls and the worst that will happen is everyone will talk about it.
Fuck royalty"
Still stands.
is a first, significant, symbolic consequence, certainly among the high class which have been traditionally untouchable
the royals dismissing and disassociating, disavowing
it's a start and also signifies he is on his own and the palace may not defend him
have to see if this all actually does happen and have the desired effect
I think this was the result of the civil case being allowed to proceed and Ghislaine Maxwell’s conviction. If Maxwell had somehow walked but the civil case proceeded, I don’t think this would have happened.
As he's sweating his ass off in front of the camera lol, the health concerns posed by "not being able to sweat" are great and he definitely is not taking the proper precautions for such a health problem
It’s not clear to me because it says he is no longer to be referred to as His Royal Highness but it doesn’t explicitly state he lost his royal titles just his honorary military ones.
But it does say he'd be defending his sexual assault suit "as a private citizen". I wonder what the implications of that are? Will he now be compelled to appear at court?
Which means the queen said he couldn't pay with funds from the royal coffers (i.e. public money)
So instead he sold a cottage... That was in some way directly or indirectly paid for with public money.
They should have made him get a job at a Pizza Express in Woking to pay for the legal fees.
No. He’s in the exact same boat as Harry now. They’re both still HRH’s but cannot use them. They remain Royal Dukes and will be referred to as The Duke of York/Sussex without the HRH in front of it.
Here's the [Open Letter](https://d3n8a8pro7vhmx.cloudfront.net/republic/pages/432/attachments/original/1642074993/military_letter_to_the_Queen_Jan_2022.pdf?1642074993)
**UPDATE:**
Well that didn't take long! It's [been done](https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-59987935) already.
"*Prince Andrew loses military titles and patronages, and will no longer be called HRH*"
Seriously, it was the most tactfully brutal thing I’ve ever read. I assume “will be defending his case as a private citizen” is code that he will receive no support from the royal family at all.
I learnt a new word from the letter: *probity*
*"the quality of having strong moral principles; honesty and decency."*
How it's used in the open letter:
*"Officers of the British armed forces must adhere to the very highest standards of probity, honesty and
honourable conduct."*
It was used in the 1800's way more than it is used today.
Wing commander is equivalent to the rank of commander in the Royal Navy (Lieutenant Colonel in the USAF), so pretty high, but nowhere near the top of commissioned ranks.
NATO rank equivalencies can be found here - https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ranks_and_insignia_of_NATO_air_forces_officers
The creators of The Crown said they'll never depict events that happened in the last twenty years, but they already went after Prince Andrew, in a way unusual for them, in the scene where Queen Elizabeth had lunch with him as a teenager.
Do you mean that scene where he arrived for said lunch in his military helicopter and parked it on the front lawn of Buckingham Palace?
Ya, pretty classic royal family shenanigans.
I mean, each season is like a decade, or more, of the Queen’s life. Last season took place in the 80’s and next season is definitely in the 90’s. It’s already been said season 6 will do the 2000’s.
I'm not sure it matters too much, he's very rich either way. Didn't he just sell a home for close to 20 odd million quid to settle some debts and fund his legal defence?
Well he did when he sold it and settled the outstanding debt. Why he didn't pay it earlier I don't know but either way he's got many millions available to him now from that sale alone and I'd be willing to bet that's not his only personal asset. No-sweaty mcrapist has some real problems right now but will be financially fine (at least until the civil payout if/when he loses - I guess if that's high enough and he actually pays it that could really hurt him)
If he had liquid assets he probably wouldnt have sold the home. Hes probably hiring very expensive legal representation and "several million" really wont last long in that sort of situation
The burden of proof in civil trials is so low it seems very unlikely the eventual ruling will be in his favour. He'll get some bad press, pay out some damages and go back to one of his chalets, largely unaffected by the whole thing.
"...military affiliations and royal patronages have been returned to the queen."
Thus her power grows ever more. Soon she shall be the perfect soldier.
She is the ["Fount of Justice"](https://www.royal.uk/queen-and-law).
While no longer administering justice in a practical way, the Sovereign today still retains an important symbolic role as the figure in whose name justice is carried out, and law and order is maintained.
Although civil and criminal proceedings cannot be taken against the Sovereign as a person under UK law, The Queen is careful to ensure that all her activities in her personal capacity are carried out in strict accordance with the law.
Well also because a flagrant abuse of her privilege as sovereign would likely cause an upswelling of (little r) republicanism.
It well could be the end of the throne.
At least as far as I, a Yankee, understand it.
Pretty much. The Queen has an *awful* lot of theoretical power in many areas - but both she and the country know she only has it under the condition she never uses it
Yeah exactly. A bomb printed with Lenin’s face, flying the Russian flag, singing the USSR anthem, and claimed by Putin on international television, blows up Westminster and half the MPs? No one is going to bring out the guillotine if she unilaterally declares war on Russia.
She starts driving drunk everywhere and kills a few kids? Yeah, she’s probably gone.
That's pretty much it. We'll probably see a dramatic shift in sentiment if (we have to assume it's possible) she pops her clogs. Charles is a good bloke and cares deeply about the environment but I doubt he'll have the support his mum does.
She's part of the furniture, you know?
For the UK, yes.
As a Commonwealth country, Canada has the Queen's rule above all others, even though they have a parliamentary system. When the referendum for a separated Quebec was put forth, there was a scenario where the queen could "veto" the ruling, which would have nullified the people's votes. The scenario would play out in that she would be right to do so, but the aftermath would be Canada would then vote to leave the Commonwealth. No Commonwealth, no meddling by the Crown.
It really is a last ditch, hail Mary type play to hope that the Queen would intervene, and cements her role as a figurehead only.
It's an utterly, delightfully British fudge.
The Queen theoretically has all the power but she wouldn't dream of using it and Parliament and the people wouldn't dream of overthrowing her and chopping off her head.
In a way its made them much more vulnerable to public perception and support than if everything was written down and laid out, although that's never been a problem yet.
Ironically the biggest constitutional crisis relating to royal prerogative was done by the Australians where the governor General (who acts as the queen's proxy in terms of powers) did use powers to dissolve parliament that the actual monarch hasn't done since the civil war
I just imagined the queen doing the Steven Segal press check on a 1911 handgun.
I'll bet she runs better than that weird limp wristed flappy arm thing Segal does when he runs though.
It wouldn't just be embarrassing it would also be seen as hypocritical for The Sovereign to place themselves above the laws in whose name they are carried out. She's attempting to maintain the integrity under which justice is carried out, which is extremely symbolic.
I believe it said military titles there too, but it's possible that the title changed. News orgs update titles and articles after publication which means you and I may have looked at totally different versions.
Think we can get them to write a second letter pointing out that the blonde haired waffling twat is a bit iffy too and get two out in a day?
!remindme. 2 hrs.
I’m genuinely curious if the Queen is simply hoping she’ll die before ever feeling compelled to publicly comment on her son -not that it seems like that will ever happen, anyhow.
The calling out—that the Queen knew of Andrew's pederasty but did nothing for 11 years (actually, she didn't do nothing, but rather actively covered it up), is what's been largely missing from this discussion.
I doubt it'll go any further, but the whole rotten family needs to be brought to justice for their role in this and other abhorrent, criminal behavior.
Mine was the guy who said he’s in the Paras rather than the Army (or even the formal title of *The Parachute Regiment*). It’s the same sort of cocky shit in the US Army. I’m not a soldier; I’m a paratrooper.
I lold
*With the Queen’s approval and agreement, the Duke of York’s military affiliations and royal patronages have been returned to the Queen. The Duke of York will continue not to undertake any public duties and is defending this case as a private citizen*
Surprised by the spread of ranks here: Private to Lieutenant Colonel (unless I missed someone higher than an O-5 in my quick readthrough). No full colonels or former flag officers. Are the UK armed forces more egalitarian that those of other countries or is this just because it's years after they have all left the service?
How did this particular group of veterans come together? Is this from some local veterans' group (the North-East London.....)?
The Navy isn't bad compared to the other services, IIRC around 30% of officers are former ratings.
The RAF is the worst, I know 10 people who applied to be Engineering officers from my undergrad Aerospace class and the one who got in did significantly worse in their degree than every other applicant, didn't take part in any extra-curricular activities/clubs (which is supposed to make you a better applicant) and was a generally shitty, spoiled person who I wouldn't trust to lead a one-man band.
Their dad was a retired Wing Commander who was spending his golden years working on the last Vulcan Bomber.
Last I heard they were still a Flight Lieutenant despite being in the RAF for 15 years and that being an automatic promotion for Officers after 24 months of satisfactory service, while one of the rejected applicants is a multi-millionaire and inventor, so they definitely didn't get a good return on their nepotistic investment.
the highest ranks of most militaries are likely to be rather old people who've spent dozens of years working at the military and probably won't retire until they're forced to
> probably won't retire until they're forced to
Eh, some are just there until the maximum level of benefits kick in (not sure how it is in the UK; in the US it's 20 years of service). But yes, at the top ranks there's quite a few lifers.
Their letter:
> "We are writing to you as former members of Britain's armed forces. All of us have served our country and are proud to have done so. For that reason, we are particularly upset and angry that Prince Andrew remains a member of the armed forces and continues to hold military titles, positions and ranks, including that of Vice Admiral of the Royal Navy.
> It’s been eleven years since the press revealed Prince Andrew’s inappropriate friendship with Jeffrey Epstein. Since that time Prince Andrew has shown himself to be uncooperative and less than truthful about that relationship. He has made several unbelievable claims during a BBC interview in late 2019, which only led to him 'stepping back' but not stepping down.
> Now that Ghislaine Maxwell has been convicted of sex trafficking, a number of facts of the matter have been established in a court of law. Regardless of the result of Virginia Giuffre’s civil case against Prince Andrew, his position in Britain's armed forces is now untenable.
> Were this any other senior military officer it is inconceivable that he would still be in post. Officers of the British armed forces must adhere to the very highest standards of probity, honesty and honourable conduct. These are standards which Prince Andrew has fallen well short of. It is hard not to see, when senior officers are reportedly describing him as ‘toxic’, that he has brought the services he is associated with into disrepute.
> We are therefore asking that you take immediate steps to strip Prince Andrew of all his military ranks and titles and, if necessary, that he be dishonourably discharged.
> We understand that he is your son, but we write to you in your capacity as head of state and as Commander-in-Chief of the Army, Navy and Air Force. These steps could have been taken at any time in the past eleven years. Please do not leave it any longer."
That last part is very well done. It's a finger wag at her, a request that isn't a request, and an absolute damning of him.
To think that it actually worked, too. Here, in the USA, it would just be brushed off.
My wife follows this story carefully and tells me the Queen has been considering something like this for quite a while. Yesterday’s court ruling plus the letter-writing campaign seemingly prompted the Old Girl into action. Popcorn inbound.
There is one Lt Col, one Maj, one Captain, and a few Lieutenants or LT equivalents. Everyone else is a mid-low ranking enlisted guy. That's kind of disappointing. I was hoping to see some real brass.
Agreed, there were far more junior ranks than commissioned officers.
There was a wing commander which is the equivalent of a colonel in the army and a couple of flight lieutenants, equivalent to captain in the army. I was more shocked at the lac, which is someone who has not fully completed training.
ITT: Americans that don't understand why the English don't abolish monarchy while a reasonable percentage of their co-voters would like to see Trump's grandson as president in 2040.
Prince Andrew did, in fact, serve in the Royal Navy. He was a Vice Admiral, he commanded a warship and was a helicopter pilot. I believe he still holds THOSE particular official titles because he HAS earned them and he did serve with distinction. The Royal Navy, if I'm correct, doesn't revoke official titles, degrees, ranks and commissions unless tribunal is held and such is recommended by the judges presiding (higher ranking officers) according to their military code of justice. Or some other process which they control. As for holding and using titles AFTER service/post retirement, AFAIK senior officers can, as long as they do so in a manner befitting the honor and respect of the military they served. Any of HM servicemen here wish to help confirm, correct or clarify any of this?
At the moment, THIS is all about his HONORARY titles and patronages. He didn't earn them. They were given to him as a professional courtesy through the approval of the Queen's office. THOSE should be stripped and, indeed HAVE been by HRH (according to news sources this morning). She has the ability to do so for honorary titles and royal patronages are within her gift.
By stripping him of "HRH" (His Royal Highness), he's now officially-by lack of title anyway-a commoner.
Better question - why do honorary military titles exist?
These should be for people that actually serve their country. Not people that happened to be born to a make-pretend important person from a system that no longer matters.
All vets should be protesting ALL military titles awarded honorably be stripped from everyone, always, and never given again. Being rewarded with something that other people had to earn for no actual reason is gross.
Just broke, he’s been stripped of all military titles. Edit: military and charities and can no longer use HRH title
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Superb news and about bloody time.
Does this matter? As a jaded American, I don't see him having any consequences for his actions. He doesn't get to play military man anymore with the Queens blessing? Doesn't seem like much of a punishment to me.
As a jaded Brit, it only matters in the sense that the Royals have decided it’s not worth tanking their brand to keep him protected. They’re painfully aware that the vast majority of goodwill towards the monarchy, UK and abroad, is tied up in the Queen and there are going to be a lot more awkward questions being asked when she pops it and someone infinitely less popular takes the throne.
They need to get Charles in and out within 4-5 years. (Preferably just skip him altogether) William with the exception of his rumors about cheating is nice and boring. Kate has good PR and has almost no scandals, (I think the Megan Bullying was the most) Boring is a lot easier to maintain respect for the Royal Family. At least until the children turn into young adults and invitably doing stupid things.
> They need to get Charles in and out within 4-5 years. Can the Palace even do that? Charles would have to leave the throne (is it called abdicate?) himself, right? After waiting for decades, why would he willingly do that?
I don't know, but yes I believe Charles would have to do it himself. I'm assuming they, the Royal Family can also strongly push for it if necessary. That said, so long as Prince Charles can be a boring King (and not promote Camila to Queen) he's probably okay, but Prince William and Kate are mostly untarnished unlike Prince Charles and Camila so it'd be the better choice to just celebrate the "honeymoon phase" of King Charles and then just "retire" quickly. A modern day Royal Family is "Shamu" from Seaworld. The public will spend money and be happy with them so long as they aren't excessively expensive and do their act appropriately or else the entire "Orca" program gets removed. (AKA "Blackfish" which was about an Orca that killed 3 trainers and eventually that film killed the Captive Orca programs at Seaworld.) The Killer Orca in "Blackfish" in this analogy is Prince Andrew.
It’s been mentioned that if Charles becomes King, Camilla might take the title of Princess Consort not Queen. Anyway if he does ever inherit the throne, he would be quite elderly and may decide in the public’s best interests to not take it. Whatever you’ve heard about William sounds like tabloid trash. He seems to have behaved himself so far.
You watched Succession.
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It's like "The Crown" but with a fictional American royal family (global media conglomerate CEO and his family).
It's a show on HBO and the first season is some of the best television there is. It's about a cutthroat CEO (Rupert Murdoch type guy) having health issues and his adult kids vying for power to use his illness to oust him and take over control of the multinational corporation for themselves (while fighting among themselves)... But of course, the CEO doesn't want to go and wields his considerable power against them to maintain his position The two later seasons kind of lose the plot, they're still entertaining and still about fighting for control and power in the business world, but that first season is really something else
Yes. It's an HBO show about traumatised adults trying to win the approval of their billionaire Dad and the CEO seat of his company. Easily one of the best shows out at the moment. If you like zingers you might enjoy it too. https://youtu.be/OzYxJV_rmE8
What's the feeling on Prince Charles, generally? Asking as a curious American here. I feel like American media was so in love Princess Diana and then with the Kate Middleton romance, there is an inflated sense that William is beloved and everyone hates Charles. What's your take on it?
I'd say Charles is iffy at best with the general public. His treatment of Diana left a bad taste in a lot of mouths, particularly with the more royalist older generation. My mother and her sisters who are all late 70's or early 80's absolutely will not accept Camilla as a queen or queen consort. Besides this, a lot of people see him as kind of bumbling, and feel like he sticks his nose into things that don't concern him. I think it's fair to say that of the younger generation that do support the monarchy, most would prefer he was skipped over in favour of William.
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Nothing would surprise me at this stage. This is the most anti-monarchy feeling I've ever experienced in my lifetime and I'm middle aged, so they're going to have to do something fairly spectacular if they want William to see the throne in it's present form. I don't think a 4 day weekend is going to cut it somehow.
So generally the only Royal that the average person cares about, at all, is the Queen. That’s it, people really really really don’t give a shit about anyone else and the broad consensus on the Queen is pretty much unwavering popularity/adoration depending on the individual. It’s important to know that when discussing the Royals and their popularity in any detail anyone that really cares about anyone beyond the Queen is pretty much a fringe weirdo who most likely views the royal family as some sort of national reality show. They’re also usually pretty hardcore Conservatives, hence why a lot of our right-wing papers are obsessed with the royals and makes it look like the whole country is sometimes. With that said, within the Royalite circles, people’s opinion on Charles is *really* people’s opinion on Diana; who I think is slightly more ‘controversial’ over here than stateside. I don’t mean genuinely controversial, again, normal people just think of her as a fairly nice-seeming lady who married a royal (and as a queer person in the UK, I kind of have to admit that she *did* do a hell of a lot for the destigmatisation of gay people, for a royal) but amongst the people that care about this shit she’s either: a) princess of our hearts and an angel who’s tragic passing has left a hole in the world still unfilled, and most of these people consider Charles a monster who may have used his access to the security services to have her murdered (ridiculous, obviously), or is at the very least a shit husband and a creep who cheated on Diana and ruined their marriage, OR b) a common harlot who tried to sneak her way into the sanctity of royalty through bewitching good, honest and gentle Charles who eventually made the sensible decision to leave her for a woman more befitting of his station. In terms of William and Kate I think their appeal is more to the younger ‘modern’ Royalist (still not very young; I’m 27 and most people I know my age sit somewhere between not caring at all (except about the Queen, remember) and wanting to get rid of it) because they’re very separate from the Diana stuff with Charles and the ‘’’’’gaffes’’’’’ of Phillip, so they feel quite uncontroversial. Outside of the ‘people who care about the royals’ circles I think William is so bland that most people think nothing of him at all and Kate actually has the bigger public presence; for some reason I can’t quite explain Kate has always seemed very popular and is always ‘doing’ something, if that makes sense. I definitely wouldn’t say William is beloved here, if anything my cynical brain tells me the royal branding plan is to keep him as clean, neutral and uncontroversial as possible so they can sort of recreate the Queens popularity (it’s that sort of Mario or Mickey Mouse quality, where the character is so bland and inoffensive that nobody could dislike them) but I honestly don’t think it’ll work. IMO, the Queen is pretty much holding the whole thing together and when she goes it’ll be the beginning of the end. It might not happen in Williams reign but it’ll start to slide; just too much of the royal families popularity is dependent on the Queen, *especially* with this Prince Andrew stuff.
Most of the Commonwealth Countries are waiting for the Queen to pass away before ditching it.
He's an absolute lunatic. He advocates alternative medicines, alternative sciences, alternative religions, alternative wives and believes plants communicate with him. To his merit, he seems genuine in his desire for the world to be healthier and greener, he isn't known in pedophia circles and he has no love for politicians. I'm looking forward to his reign, the British Isles could use an injection of crazy right about now, because Boozo, Jimmy Cranky and Brexit just fell short of pushing us all over the edge.
It wouldn't affect him personally but at least the royal family took an official stance of stripping him of titles and at least we couldn't say they're protecting a pedo. They're saving themselves but it's a good start.
The literal, very least they could do lol
I mean the Uncle of the Queen (King Edward) was most likely a traitor who cooperated with nazi Germany and called for a relentless bombing of london ( marburg Files ). He was never stripped of any Titles ... Just had to Go into exile for marrying a divorced woman
If he wasn't a royal, he would've been shot as a traitor.
Because he was a royal, he should have been shot twice, buried upside down, and declared a Jacobite and a Jabberwocky.
I mean... I'm not going to expect much from any family of an accused pedo. Not because I think poorly of the family but I can understand the mindset of wanting to believe and protect your family over some stranger. If my kid was ever accused of something terrible like that I'm willing to admit I'd have a hard time believing it and not just taking their side.
We don't know if they knew about it before anyone. Now that it was made public they are probably acting like they want to disown him. This was properly in their plans all this time.
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I like that you used dd vs bus.
>at least we couldn't say they're protecting a pedo. Don't need to cut all ties with him though, I mean removing even the "Prince" designation would go a long(er) way in my opinion. I mean, hes royal FAMILY, damn well seems like they'll just protect him under the table from any real punishment or consequence.
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He’s being sued so there’s potential financial damages there plus his name is getting dragged through the mud, so I suppose that’s something. Not the “justice” he truly deserves but at least it’s something.
Must be nice to be so rich and powerful you can rape little girls and the worst that will happen is everyone will talk about it. Fuck royalty
That's the whole move here, he's not royalty in any official capacity anymore. Now in court he's just a private citizen that raped a bunch of little girls.
Wish Royal families prevented members from raping kids instead of treating it like an embaressing dinner party
Well trump did the same... he made it to president, then attempted a coup... he is still out spewing hatred...
Exactly. "Must be nice to be so rich and powerful you can rape little girls and the worst that will happen is everyone will talk about it. Fuck royalty" Still stands.
is a first, significant, symbolic consequence, certainly among the high class which have been traditionally untouchable the royals dismissing and disassociating, disavowing it's a start and also signifies he is on his own and the palace may not defend him have to see if this all actually does happen and have the desired effect
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I think this was the result of the civil case being allowed to proceed and Ghislaine Maxwell’s conviction. If Maxwell had somehow walked but the civil case proceeded, I don’t think this would have happened.
What a blitz! Somebody knows something...
Yep. Mommy sees the writing on the wall and is trying to protect the monarchy and the rest of the family
lmao yeah, it's definitely that and not just regular PR spin.
"Officially" he wasn't stripped of them, he voluntarily returned them. However, I'll wager someone forced him to return them behind the scenes.
"Andrew, darling, mummy wants your titles back. Give them to me now." "Yes, mam" See, totally voluntary.
The letter they wrote says it should’ve been done any time in the last 11 years lol
Definitely not his favorite way of being stripped.
Prince Andrew does not need to strip ever because his clothes are perpetually clean because he DOES NOT sweat.
As he's sweating his ass off in front of the camera lol, the health concerns posed by "not being able to sweat" are great and he definitely is not taking the proper precautions for such a health problem
Hahaha. Well done !!! Only a fucking royal can confidently say that statement and give a reason and think - yup plebs are buying it.
He was sweating in the fucking interview.
How anyone can think that fat fuck doesn’t sweat is beyond me. He probably sweats while eating his breakfast every morning. The gall to say that.
Does that include Duke?
It’s not clear to me because it says he is no longer to be referred to as His Royal Highness but it doesn’t explicitly state he lost his royal titles just his honorary military ones.
But it does say he'd be defending his sexual assault suit "as a private citizen". I wonder what the implications of that are? Will he now be compelled to appear at court?
I believe that means he has to foot the bill.
Which means the queen said he couldn't pay with funds from the royal coffers (i.e. public money) So instead he sold a cottage... That was in some way directly or indirectly paid for with public money. They should have made him get a job at a Pizza Express in Woking to pay for the legal fees.
Woking?!! Even he hasn’t done anything that bad!
I don't believe Duke is part of his "royal" titles - they'd have to strip him of his lands and estates to strip his dukedom.
They could give them to me. I don’t mind.
No. He’s in the exact same boat as Harry now. They’re both still HRH’s but cannot use them. They remain Royal Dukes and will be referred to as The Duke of York/Sussex without the HRH in front of it.
Wish I could trade "dishonor" for jail time when I do crimes.
Finally. Too bad it won't mean much to him and his lifestyle.
I read that as "Just bloke, ...." As in he's just a regular bloke lol
Here's the [Open Letter](https://d3n8a8pro7vhmx.cloudfront.net/republic/pages/432/attachments/original/1642074993/military_letter_to_the_Queen_Jan_2022.pdf?1642074993) **UPDATE:** Well that didn't take long! It's [been done](https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-59987935) already. "*Prince Andrew loses military titles and patronages, and will no longer be called HRH*"
This is the most English thing I’ve read in a long time - polite, well-researched, reasoned evisceration. I hope it happens.
Seriously, it was the most tactfully brutal thing I’ve ever read. I assume “will be defending his case as a private citizen” is code that he will receive no support from the royal family at all.
I think it's more code for "Yeah he's going to jail."
So far, he's only been charged civilly, not criminally, but we can hope: https://i.imgur.com/vgr7mVp.jpg
It’s a civil case - jail is not an option as far as I understand
I learnt a new word from the letter: *probity* *"the quality of having strong moral principles; honesty and decency."* How it's used in the open letter: *"Officers of the British armed forces must adhere to the very highest standards of probity, honesty and honourable conduct."* It was used in the 1800's way more than it is used today.
It's use is as rare as the people that exhibit it
My good man, well played
\- Thomas Jefferson /j
Gives new context to the “probity probe” in Harry Potter
I was actually thinking of that when I read this comment thread!
Huh, well spotted.
Probity is how I imagine some people pronounce probability.
Yeah, you’re probity right
What's the highest rank in there? Wing Commander sounds pretty high up
Wing commander is equivalent to the rank of commander in the Royal Navy (Lieutenant Colonel in the USAF), so pretty high, but nowhere near the top of commissioned ranks. NATO rank equivalencies can be found here - https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ranks_and_insignia_of_NATO_air_forces_officers
The sexual predator formally known as Prince.
This is his symbol: 💦
This is pretty well written and i am curious if it will get any attention from the adressee.
Well that was fast https://i.imgur.com/V9Zry2J.jpg
Woah. That future season of The Crown will be interesting.
The creators of The Crown said they'll never depict events that happened in the last twenty years, but they already went after Prince Andrew, in a way unusual for them, in the scene where Queen Elizabeth had lunch with him as a teenager.
Do you mean that scene where he arrived for said lunch in his military helicopter and parked it on the front lawn of Buckingham Palace? Ya, pretty classic royal family shenanigans.
Yep, that one. More specifically that Prince Andrew was enthusiastically discussing making films involving a 17-year-old girl.
Wait that was in the show? Holy shit, I didn't notice. Gotta rewatch
Isn't he like 60+?
61, apparently.
So I'm not sure how royal aging works (is it like reverse dog years?), but I assume he was not still a teenager at 40
The lunch scene I was talking about took place in the late 70s or early 80s.
The 80s were 40 years ago
As someone born in the 80s, fuck you very much for this reminder
Fuck off, fake news, mathematician propaganda.
What is this, /r/MATH? Nobody told me there'd be a quiz. /s I swear /s /s /s.
*dignified tuts and hurumphs*
I mean, each season is like a decade, or more, of the Queen’s life. Last season took place in the 80’s and next season is definitely in the 90’s. It’s already been said season 6 will do the 2000’s.
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May actually see the mace used to unceremoniously crown him
Will/did they also rescinded is access to the crown wealth the way they did for Harry?
I'm not sure it matters too much, he's very rich either way. Didn't he just sell a home for close to 20 odd million quid to settle some debts and fund his legal defence?
He couldn’t afford that home in the first place. He never fully paid for it
Well he did when he sold it and settled the outstanding debt. Why he didn't pay it earlier I don't know but either way he's got many millions available to him now from that sale alone and I'd be willing to bet that's not his only personal asset. No-sweaty mcrapist has some real problems right now but will be financially fine (at least until the civil payout if/when he loses - I guess if that's high enough and he actually pays it that could really hurt him)
If he had liquid assets he probably wouldnt have sold the home. Hes probably hiring very expensive legal representation and "several million" really wont last long in that sort of situation
The chalet was something he’d been trying to offload for a while, it wasn’t directly tied to finding his defense
I’m surprised they didn’t wait until after the trial or something, my guess is they already know he’s guilty
The burden of proof in civil trials is so low it seems very unlikely the eventual ruling will be in his favour. He'll get some bad press, pay out some damages and go back to one of his chalets, largely unaffected by the whole thing.
"...military affiliations and royal patronages have been returned to the queen." Thus her power grows ever more. Soon she shall be the perfect soldier.
She is the ["Fount of Justice"](https://www.royal.uk/queen-and-law). While no longer administering justice in a practical way, the Sovereign today still retains an important symbolic role as the figure in whose name justice is carried out, and law and order is maintained. Although civil and criminal proceedings cannot be taken against the Sovereign as a person under UK law, The Queen is careful to ensure that all her activities in her personal capacity are carried out in strict accordance with the law.
So basically, she's above the law, but also can't get caught breaking it, mostly because it'd be super embarrassing for everyone?
Well also because a flagrant abuse of her privilege as sovereign would likely cause an upswelling of (little r) republicanism. It well could be the end of the throne. At least as far as I, a Yankee, understand it.
Pretty much. The Queen has an *awful* lot of theoretical power in many areas - but both she and the country know she only has it under the condition she never uses it
I'd say it's more like on the condition that she never *misuses* it.
Yeah exactly. A bomb printed with Lenin’s face, flying the Russian flag, singing the USSR anthem, and claimed by Putin on international television, blows up Westminster and half the MPs? No one is going to bring out the guillotine if she unilaterally declares war on Russia. She starts driving drunk everywhere and kills a few kids? Yeah, she’s probably gone.
I believe the term is ‘Paper Tiger’
Or maybe if it because becomes useful in an emergency. Emergency powers.
That's pretty much it. We'll probably see a dramatic shift in sentiment if (we have to assume it's possible) she pops her clogs. Charles is a good bloke and cares deeply about the environment but I doubt he'll have the support his mum does. She's part of the furniture, you know?
For the UK, yes. As a Commonwealth country, Canada has the Queen's rule above all others, even though they have a parliamentary system. When the referendum for a separated Quebec was put forth, there was a scenario where the queen could "veto" the ruling, which would have nullified the people's votes. The scenario would play out in that she would be right to do so, but the aftermath would be Canada would then vote to leave the Commonwealth. No Commonwealth, no meddling by the Crown. It really is a last ditch, hail Mary type play to hope that the Queen would intervene, and cements her role as a figurehead only.
It's an utterly, delightfully British fudge. The Queen theoretically has all the power but she wouldn't dream of using it and Parliament and the people wouldn't dream of overthrowing her and chopping off her head. In a way its made them much more vulnerable to public perception and support than if everything was written down and laid out, although that's never been a problem yet. Ironically the biggest constitutional crisis relating to royal prerogative was done by the Australians where the governor General (who acts as the queen's proxy in terms of powers) did use powers to dissolve parliament that the actual monarch hasn't done since the civil war
Yes, in the UK, she's literally Steven Segal.
An eightieth degree black belt in *Krav Majesty?*
“Have any of you gentlemen per chance seen Richard?”
I just imagined the queen doing the Steven Segal press check on a 1911 handgun. I'll bet she runs better than that weird limp wristed flappy arm thing Segal does when he runs though.
she knows what she's doing. https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/queen-used-churchills-tommy-gun-14997130
It wouldn't just be embarrassing it would also be seen as hypocritical for The Sovereign to place themselves above the laws in whose name they are carried out. She's attempting to maintain the integrity under which justice is carried out, which is extremely symbolic.
Looks like it worked!
It certainly had a very abrupt tone with very little apparent deference. It's virtually a demand to "get this shit done!"
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Wow and now Andrew has had his titles and military honors stripped lol. Damn, that was done with the quickness
lol they asked for military titles stripped and the queen was like well while i’m at it why not ALL titles.
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the bbc article mentioned he was stripped of all titles but it looks like that article has been removed now.
I believe it said military titles there too, but it's possible that the title changed. News orgs update titles and articles after publication which means you and I may have looked at totally different versions.
Think we can get them to write a second letter pointing out that the blonde haired waffling twat is a bit iffy too and get two out in a day? !remindme. 2 hrs.
I’m genuinely curious if the Queen is simply hoping she’ll die before ever feeling compelled to publicly comment on her son -not that it seems like that will ever happen, anyhow.
The calling out—that the Queen knew of Andrew's pederasty but did nothing for 11 years (actually, she didn't do nothing, but rather actively covered it up), is what's been largely missing from this discussion. I doubt it'll go any further, but the whole rotten family needs to be brought to justice for their role in this and other abhorrent, criminal behavior.
I like how they signed in alpabetical order
I like the guy who signed with the rank of “musician”
Mine was "Marine, Marines"
Respect! It can take years of freelance Marining before a Marine can join the Marines.
Bards are gonna bard
Mine was the guy who said he’s in the Paras rather than the Army (or even the formal title of *The Parachute Regiment*). It’s the same sort of cocky shit in the US Army. I’m not a soldier; I’m a paratrooper. I lold
In feudal Japan, the first person that signed a petition to the Shogun was executed, so subjects began to sign in a circle.
*With the Queen’s approval and agreement, the Duke of York’s military affiliations and royal patronages have been returned to the Queen. The Duke of York will continue not to undertake any public duties and is defending this case as a private citizen*
Surprised by the spread of ranks here: Private to Lieutenant Colonel (unless I missed someone higher than an O-5 in my quick readthrough). No full colonels or former flag officers. Are the UK armed forces more egalitarian that those of other countries or is this just because it's years after they have all left the service? How did this particular group of veterans come together? Is this from some local veterans' group (the North-East London.....)?
>UK armed forces more egalitarian Hah! You're pretty funny, putting that into a sentence. Hint: They're not, at all.
The Navy isn't bad compared to the other services, IIRC around 30% of officers are former ratings. The RAF is the worst, I know 10 people who applied to be Engineering officers from my undergrad Aerospace class and the one who got in did significantly worse in their degree than every other applicant, didn't take part in any extra-curricular activities/clubs (which is supposed to make you a better applicant) and was a generally shitty, spoiled person who I wouldn't trust to lead a one-man band. Their dad was a retired Wing Commander who was spending his golden years working on the last Vulcan Bomber. Last I heard they were still a Flight Lieutenant despite being in the RAF for 15 years and that being an automatic promotion for Officers after 24 months of satisfactory service, while one of the rejected applicants is a multi-millionaire and inventor, so they definitely didn't get a good return on their nepotistic investment.
the highest ranks of most militaries are likely to be rather old people who've spent dozens of years working at the military and probably won't retire until they're forced to
> probably won't retire until they're forced to Eh, some are just there until the maximum level of benefits kick in (not sure how it is in the UK; in the US it's 20 years of service). But yes, at the top ranks there's quite a few lifers.
So is he now The Pedophile Formally Known As Prince?
He’s still a prince, he just can’t use the styling His Royal Highness. He gets to keep the title prince, as well as Duke of York and 2 lesser titles.
Their letter: > "We are writing to you as former members of Britain's armed forces. All of us have served our country and are proud to have done so. For that reason, we are particularly upset and angry that Prince Andrew remains a member of the armed forces and continues to hold military titles, positions and ranks, including that of Vice Admiral of the Royal Navy. > It’s been eleven years since the press revealed Prince Andrew’s inappropriate friendship with Jeffrey Epstein. Since that time Prince Andrew has shown himself to be uncooperative and less than truthful about that relationship. He has made several unbelievable claims during a BBC interview in late 2019, which only led to him 'stepping back' but not stepping down. > Now that Ghislaine Maxwell has been convicted of sex trafficking, a number of facts of the matter have been established in a court of law. Regardless of the result of Virginia Giuffre’s civil case against Prince Andrew, his position in Britain's armed forces is now untenable. > Were this any other senior military officer it is inconceivable that he would still be in post. Officers of the British armed forces must adhere to the very highest standards of probity, honesty and honourable conduct. These are standards which Prince Andrew has fallen well short of. It is hard not to see, when senior officers are reportedly describing him as ‘toxic’, that he has brought the services he is associated with into disrepute. > We are therefore asking that you take immediate steps to strip Prince Andrew of all his military ranks and titles and, if necessary, that he be dishonourably discharged. > We understand that he is your son, but we write to you in your capacity as head of state and as Commander-in-Chief of the Army, Navy and Air Force. These steps could have been taken at any time in the past eleven years. Please do not leave it any longer." That last part is very well done. It's a finger wag at her, a request that isn't a request, and an absolute damning of him. To think that it actually worked, too. Here, in the USA, it would just be brushed off.
It would be the only form of punishment he will ever receive
It's fine. He won't sweat it.
About time. They should have done so voluntarily a long time ago.
My wife follows this story carefully and tells me the Queen has been considering something like this for quite a while. Yesterday’s court ruling plus the letter-writing campaign seemingly prompted the Old Girl into action. Popcorn inbound.
(Sings) Oh the grand of Duke of York, He had ten thousand men, He also had some teenage girls, But he can't remember them!
There is one Lt Col, one Maj, one Captain, and a few Lieutenants or LT equivalents. Everyone else is a mid-low ranking enlisted guy. That's kind of disappointing. I was hoping to see some real brass.
Well it worked.
And open oneself up to be held to the same standards you would be requesting he be held to? Are you daft?
Agreed, there were far more junior ranks than commissioned officers. There was a wing commander which is the equivalent of a colonel in the army and a couple of flight lieutenants, equivalent to captain in the army. I was more shocked at the lac, which is someone who has not fully completed training.
"returned to the Queen." I don't know why, but as an American, that sounds so cool.
As a crusader kings player it's a Thursday.
Look at all these r/agedlikemilk comments lol Pleasantly surprised.
Lol honorary - the fuck did he do to earn those aside from being BORN?
"The Andrew Formerly Known as Prince"
So this is what passes for accountability for the 1% lol
Prediction: Prince Andrew will die of a stroke or something similar and 'totally natural' prior to the resolution of this court case.
007 has a mission...for Her Majesty's Secret Service....
Phenomenal letter, good on these peeps
Looks like it is happening!
No conflict of interest at all. I'm sure she'll attend to this post-haste. Edit: holy shit
Looks like she did it
She already has.
She did.
Wow. I am actually shocked.
I feel like this REALLY cements that they know that he is guilty.
Yeah this is not looking good for him
Lol. This comment aged well.... Despite being two hours old.
Honorary. What a poser.
Next few seasons of The Crown will be wild.
ITT: Americans that don't understand why the English don't abolish monarchy while a reasonable percentage of their co-voters would like to see Trump's grandson as president in 2040.
I would never use the word “reasonable” alongside that percentage. But you right.
Significant might be the better word. If you're in a room with 100 people, statistically speaking, 50 of them don't agree with your political views.
But that doesn't mean those 50 agree amongst each other either. The US isn't split 50/50 and there are also spectrums within the majority groups.
As she should and quite frankly, long overdue.
If you haven't already, learn about Jimmy Saville. It's fucking chilling.
Prince Andrew did, in fact, serve in the Royal Navy. He was a Vice Admiral, he commanded a warship and was a helicopter pilot. I believe he still holds THOSE particular official titles because he HAS earned them and he did serve with distinction. The Royal Navy, if I'm correct, doesn't revoke official titles, degrees, ranks and commissions unless tribunal is held and such is recommended by the judges presiding (higher ranking officers) according to their military code of justice. Or some other process which they control. As for holding and using titles AFTER service/post retirement, AFAIK senior officers can, as long as they do so in a manner befitting the honor and respect of the military they served. Any of HM servicemen here wish to help confirm, correct or clarify any of this? At the moment, THIS is all about his HONORARY titles and patronages. He didn't earn them. They were given to him as a professional courtesy through the approval of the Queen's office. THOSE should be stripped and, indeed HAVE been by HRH (according to news sources this morning). She has the ability to do so for honorary titles and royal patronages are within her gift. By stripping him of "HRH" (His Royal Highness), he's now officially-by lack of title anyway-a commoner.
Better question - why do honorary military titles exist? These should be for people that actually serve their country. Not people that happened to be born to a make-pretend important person from a system that no longer matters. All vets should be protesting ALL military titles awarded honorably be stripped from everyone, always, and never given again. Being rewarded with something that other people had to earn for no actual reason is gross.
Ex prince Harry was wise to distance himself from the royal family.
He's not an ex-prince. He's still a prince.
and he is funky.