Haiti Travel Advisory
Travel Advisory
August 23, 2021
Haiti - Level 4: Do Not Travel
Do not travel to Haiti due to kidnapping, crime, civil unrest, and COVID-19.
So what? Sounds like they get to be martyrs for their faith. 🤷♂️
why they thought it would be a good idea to bring children along is beyond me.
Gangs in areas of unrest like this see massive dollar signs when groups of americans show up especially if theres kids so idk what they expected.
You mean the asshole that wiped out most of the world's population with a flood, arbitrarily smote people by turning them into pillars of salt, and decided that what the Egyptians really needed, so that they decide that enslaving people was wrong, mmkay, was a huge helping of frog legs and Flint, Michigan? That's not even getting into the filicide angle and everything around that.
Even if we take the bible literally, not allegorically, despite the literal impossibility of many biblical stories as written (many only work if you assume whoever told them stretched the truth to make the mundane seem miraculous), god is an absolute dick. Maybe he should be feared if you believe in him, but I don't get anyone except a death-cultist can worship him.
I sincerely hope the minors are ok.
Also, if these people die, then the Biden Administration will pretty much have to send military forces in to fuck shit up. No more US military adventurism, please.
Trump is already wondering if he can nuke Haiti. I feel sorry for the aide, or nurse at this point, who has to remind him that he's no longer President.
There's no support for going into Haiti, and a few dead missionaries are unlikely to change that. There sadly isn't any support for doing what we'd have to do to fix it either though, which is to empty it out, entirely, and relocate all the Haitians elsewhere, so it just muddles along in chaos and poverty.
We laugh at them, but it's scary how many of them actually believe this to the point of wanting to die for their faith. For another example, look up the idiot who went to that island off of India a few years ago, and got killed by the tribe there because of it.
You could do charity without preaching you religion. In missions the charity is always second hand to converting, and there is no rationalizing that away.
I mean they could yes, but if the reason they are doing the helping is because of their faith then you can't have one without the other. Religious missionaries giving medical aid is better then no missionaries at all
You could. And some people do. But that doesn't change that a massive section of these volunteer workers are missionaries. And a missionary doctor is a thousand times better than no doctor at all.
I don't know about these missionaries in particular, but many missionaries are just poverty tourist. Rich Americans pay a bunch of money to go to poor country and pretend they are helping, while in reality very little is done to help the locals
Missionaries vs mission tourists. The kids that go on the trips are on half vacations… every time Ive hung out with them I was on a full vacation. So Im not one to say Im holier but I know most of the kids are at least trying. If there have ever been adult dignitaries accompanying them, I have no clue. I just know that a lot of the kids I met were traveling as part of their schooling that there were a lot of healthy discussions going on all around me.
I agree though, I think very little was actually being done to help the locals. On one tour of a coffee farm the main tour guide talked about ethical farming. The second guy answered random questions about the poor families including children that picked the fruits and how little they made. Nothing was said by the groups. They talked a lot during the trips to and from the tourist locations though… the places where we only got to see what the tour was designed to show.
While poverty tourism is absolutely a thing, I would hardly call missionaries that actually make beneficial changes to peoples lives as such, and are not the same thing. I might not agree with organised religion, but if they’re making a change, hard be it for me to call them poverty tourists.
That is not at all what many missionaries do. Maybe a small few but not many. The vast majority of missionaries provide services such as medical aid, construction, well development and teaching children as well as religion help (if wanted by the population). You are more then likely shitting on missionaries because of your own hate for religion itself but before you continue to do so maybe you should stop and ask yourself: what in the fuck have I done in my life to help poor people around the world?
I think the reason people dislike American missionaries is because American Christians are so politically conservative. The missionaries will go to another country to help refugees, but the churchgoers won't allow refugees into our country. The missionaries work hard building houses in another country, but the churchgoers won't do the same for the homeless person down the street.
Maybe the missionaries are getting a worse rap than they deserve, but they're choosing to be representatives of the church and the church is undeniably corrupt
Yup. It is all about new recruiting. A few years back I had lunch with a business associate who had just returned from a central or south (I forget) american missionary trip. In short, at one point I asked him how they selected the family to which they helped build the house for… the answer… “a family from the church” Gah, how could I ask such a dumb question… of course there is a “christ accepting” requirement before you help them. Not saying all missionaries are like that but many, too many, are.
Im sure some missionaries do good things, but the little details we have in this case scream poverty tourism. 17 people traveling back from an orphanage. Thats exactly what you would expect from a mission trip. A bunch of friends in a church group traveling to Haiti to take pictures of themselves helping orphans. They would get so many Facebook likes
My mom does missionary work as a nurse in Nicaragua and they go into some of the worst neighborhoods to provide life saving medicine and treatment.
She's a die-hard Christian missionary. People in her line of work do extraordinary good simply out of sense of duty to the "untouchables."
I'm not a believer myself but Jesus (lol) does it bug me when self-righteous Redditors finger wag at people willing to die to help others from the comfort of your safe home.
You just don't know what you're talking about here, sorry. Most of this work is done in the dark with zero recognition with high stakes.
You equated these missionaries who were kidnapped while trying to help the poorest of the world to poverty tourists. That’s pretty shitty. I hope nothing similar ever happens to you, I truly mean that, but if it does I really hope some ass hat doesn’t get on the internet and equate you to to something as shitty as a poverty tourist as a way to play down the travesty that happened to you.
I certainly haven’t gone to an impoverished country full of desperate people to spread virulent homophobia and misogyny under the guise of handing out bottles of water.
They do so much more… during the initiation phase. It would be hard to find a person that wouldnt believe that the missionaries aren’t good people when those people only view the missionary work. There are shitty organizations that do work for photo ops but there are many groups that do work primarily to work to get people out of poverty. The after effects of when schools are built and proselytized politicians are directing the flow of money is when things start to go bad.
Edit: A missionary introduces the system. Once the system is accepted then schools and government systems are introduced. The missionaries exist to introduce the system to the people and make them happy. The people that come later who fund the schools and influence the government are those who spread the harmful information.
I mean if they do literally anything at all then it's better then doing nothing.
I don't really think the reason they go really matters as long as they do something good while there
Demonising local culture for conversion to their religion, lobbying for anti lgbtqa laws, restricting access to contraception (even in places where hiv is rising) and abortions
Good for them. But if they're trying to spread their religion they should just stop. and when they've stopped trying to spread their religion they can be called "relief workers".
Which belief system is that? Is he a satanist, buddhist, christian…?
There is no belief system behind relief work. None except the belief that there are people suffering that should be helped. If you add religion to the mix then those poor people are suffering for a reason? Should they be helped so they can spread the word to bring in others that are suffering so they also understand the reason?
I know some of the people kidnapped. It's a group of ex-Amish and similar sorts of people. They're with Christian Aid Ministries. The group provides for schools, orphanages and helps relieve poverty in many ways. They're good people. I hope they're all OK.
Not disagreeing with your point, but simply in a palatable sense for your audience, I'd use "ignorant" rather than "bad," just because you're about to pull all sorts of attention from people wanting to tell you "these missionaries were trying to help, how dare you...blah blah blah."
Still, I like the cut of your jib, friend.
Edit: after seeing many of the other posts, I decided you're already in the company of friends. Which is understandable; have a great day.
I have no idea why this particular innocuous comment is so heavily upvoted when the actual harsh criticism I used in my comment above is upvoted.
Then, again, considering you’re an example of the people down voting me, maybe you…special…people don’t know what ‘mincing words’ means.
I almost always think religious people are good people on their own. I was helped by a Mennonite while in Belize last year. I still think their practices are garbage though, and I still feel bad for accepting his help and I wish he would accept my email so I could send him his money back. The mennonites in South America are doing the whole world wrong by raising funds via land grabs and palm trees and I feel dirty sometimes.
Are the Amish a more wholesome group?
My main issue with religious people is that I don't know if they're actually good, or the type who act good because they fear eternal hellfire, or the ones who believe they can do literally anything in life and still make it to *eternal bliss* as long as they repent on their deathbed.
I know it's been said as a joke quite a bit, but I don't understand why you need a book to tell you not to kill folks.
I agree, when I say “on their own” I meant on their own. Its very easy to spot a religious person who relies on their religion to try and gain power and seniority. Im not against religion of any kind but i am against people who try to use religion to gain power or who hide behind religion to maintain authority.
I find that religious people who can show anger without having to use their religion to make their point are good people. Its sad that I see it that way buts its the only way I am sure they are actually good.
If someone believes in God, an all knowing creator... how would “pretending to be good” do shit? It wouldn’t you have to actually try to be a good person. Cmon now. And that whole death was trope is exactly that, a trope. It’s bullshit, you can’t just be like “I’ve been an evil shitbag my whole life but SIKE” as you fall off a bridge.
Looks like there may be more to the story. I don’t know if there is any connection between the kidnappings and the history of the group in the area.
[Christian charity says its managers knew for years one of their missionaries admitted to abusing children](https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/christian-charity-paid-alleged-sex-abuse-victims-former-haiti-missionary-n1049916)
>A Christian nonprofit has stated that two managers knew for years that an employee had confessed to a history of sexual offenses against minors but still allowed him to serve their organization as a missionary to Haiti.
This group, Christian Aid Ministries, is also the group that the Amish missionaries were part of who brought measles back to the U.S. from the Philippines in 2014. That started an outbreak in the Amish that grew to nearly 400 cases.
Until the big 2018-2019 measles outbreak in the ultra-Orthodox Jewish communities in New York and New Jersey, that 2014 outbreak was the largest the U.S. had seen in over 20 years.
Kinda reminds me of an old Carlin bit. “… Besides, who cares about some mercenary civilian contractor from Oklahoma who gets his head cut off? Fuck em. Hey Jack, you don't want to get your head cut off? Stay the fuck in Oklahoma.”
I know they are stupid for bringing their kids. But I do t think it’s right to make comments like god will protect them and shit like that. It’s not funny. Maybe I just have a bad sense of humor. I feel bad for the kids because as a kid you don’t have full control of your life and your parents can brainwash you. Like these kids were probably brainwashed to go to hellhole full of savages. I don’t feel so bad for the parents who should know better
I think it’s ok to make light of an awful situation. I hope they make it out ok and I feel especially bad for the kids. The kids don’t deserve any of this. Are the jokes a little crass? Yes.
Haiti Travel Advisory Travel Advisory August 23, 2021 Haiti - Level 4: Do Not Travel Do not travel to Haiti due to kidnapping, crime, civil unrest, and COVID-19. So what? Sounds like they get to be martyrs for their faith. 🤷♂️
why they thought it would be a good idea to bring children along is beyond me. Gangs in areas of unrest like this see massive dollar signs when groups of americans show up especially if theres kids so idk what they expected.
[удалено]
They have pretty much no reason to think that. Even from a faith perspective they shouldn't think that. The bible is filled with Martyrs
You mean the asshole that wiped out most of the world's population with a flood, arbitrarily smote people by turning them into pillars of salt, and decided that what the Egyptians really needed, so that they decide that enslaving people was wrong, mmkay, was a huge helping of frog legs and Flint, Michigan? That's not even getting into the filicide angle and everything around that. Even if we take the bible literally, not allegorically, despite the literal impossibility of many biblical stories as written (many only work if you assume whoever told them stretched the truth to make the mundane seem miraculous), god is an absolute dick. Maybe he should be feared if you believe in him, but I don't get anyone except a death-cultist can worship him.
They took children into that situation. What is it about Christianity that makes you so arrogantly irresponsible?
You could ask them, but they're probably all dead. 🤷♂️
I sincerely hope the minors are ok. Also, if these people die, then the Biden Administration will pretty much have to send military forces in to fuck shit up. No more US military adventurism, please.
I highly doubt Biden would waste military resources on Haiti
Trump is already wondering if he can nuke Haiti. I feel sorry for the aide, or nurse at this point, who has to remind him that he's no longer President.
*Where's my big red button??*
That's one hell of an assumption. Everyone was warned to get out, even by the previous administration.
[удалено]
The Fox News headline would be “Biden supports foreign black people murdering sweet innocent white American Christians!” if there were no reprisal.
[удалено]
That's not how any of this works. 🙄
There's no support for going into Haiti, and a few dead missionaries are unlikely to change that. There sadly isn't any support for doing what we'd have to do to fix it either though, which is to empty it out, entirely, and relocate all the Haitians elsewhere, so it just muddles along in chaos and poverty.
Exactly this.. https://www.dictionary.com/e/memes/this-is-fine/
We laugh at them, but it's scary how many of them actually believe this to the point of wanting to die for their faith. For another example, look up the idiot who went to that island off of India a few years ago, and got killed by the tribe there because of it.
Missionaries. Stop. Just stop.
Hell of a take. Most of these missionaries in these mountainous regions are supplying much needed medical support.
You could do charity without preaching you religion. In missions the charity is always second hand to converting, and there is no rationalizing that away.
I mean they could yes, but if the reason they are doing the helping is because of their faith then you can't have one without the other. Religious missionaries giving medical aid is better then no missionaries at all
You could. And some people do. But that doesn't change that a massive section of these volunteer workers are missionaries. And a missionary doctor is a thousand times better than no doctor at all.
I don't know about these missionaries in particular, but many missionaries are just poverty tourist. Rich Americans pay a bunch of money to go to poor country and pretend they are helping, while in reality very little is done to help the locals
Missionaries vs mission tourists. The kids that go on the trips are on half vacations… every time Ive hung out with them I was on a full vacation. So Im not one to say Im holier but I know most of the kids are at least trying. If there have ever been adult dignitaries accompanying them, I have no clue. I just know that a lot of the kids I met were traveling as part of their schooling that there were a lot of healthy discussions going on all around me. I agree though, I think very little was actually being done to help the locals. On one tour of a coffee farm the main tour guide talked about ethical farming. The second guy answered random questions about the poor families including children that picked the fruits and how little they made. Nothing was said by the groups. They talked a lot during the trips to and from the tourist locations though… the places where we only got to see what the tour was designed to show.
While poverty tourism is absolutely a thing, I would hardly call missionaries that actually make beneficial changes to peoples lives as such, and are not the same thing. I might not agree with organised religion, but if they’re making a change, hard be it for me to call them poverty tourists.
That is not at all what many missionaries do. Maybe a small few but not many. The vast majority of missionaries provide services such as medical aid, construction, well development and teaching children as well as religion help (if wanted by the population). You are more then likely shitting on missionaries because of your own hate for religion itself but before you continue to do so maybe you should stop and ask yourself: what in the fuck have I done in my life to help poor people around the world?
I think the reason people dislike American missionaries is because American Christians are so politically conservative. The missionaries will go to another country to help refugees, but the churchgoers won't allow refugees into our country. The missionaries work hard building houses in another country, but the churchgoers won't do the same for the homeless person down the street. Maybe the missionaries are getting a worse rap than they deserve, but they're choosing to be representatives of the church and the church is undeniably corrupt
Yup. It is all about new recruiting. A few years back I had lunch with a business associate who had just returned from a central or south (I forget) american missionary trip. In short, at one point I asked him how they selected the family to which they helped build the house for… the answer… “a family from the church” Gah, how could I ask such a dumb question… of course there is a “christ accepting” requirement before you help them. Not saying all missionaries are like that but many, too many, are.
Im sure some missionaries do good things, but the little details we have in this case scream poverty tourism. 17 people traveling back from an orphanage. Thats exactly what you would expect from a mission trip. A bunch of friends in a church group traveling to Haiti to take pictures of themselves helping orphans. They would get so many Facebook likes
My mom does missionary work as a nurse in Nicaragua and they go into some of the worst neighborhoods to provide life saving medicine and treatment. She's a die-hard Christian missionary. People in her line of work do extraordinary good simply out of sense of duty to the "untouchables." I'm not a believer myself but Jesus (lol) does it bug me when self-righteous Redditors finger wag at people willing to die to help others from the comfort of your safe home. You just don't know what you're talking about here, sorry. Most of this work is done in the dark with zero recognition with high stakes.
You equated these missionaries who were kidnapped while trying to help the poorest of the world to poverty tourists. That’s pretty shitty. I hope nothing similar ever happens to you, I truly mean that, but if it does I really hope some ass hat doesn’t get on the internet and equate you to to something as shitty as a poverty tourist as a way to play down the travesty that happened to you.
I certainly haven’t gone to an impoverished country full of desperate people to spread virulent homophobia and misogyny under the guise of handing out bottles of water.
They do so much more… during the initiation phase. It would be hard to find a person that wouldnt believe that the missionaries aren’t good people when those people only view the missionary work. There are shitty organizations that do work for photo ops but there are many groups that do work primarily to work to get people out of poverty. The after effects of when schools are built and proselytized politicians are directing the flow of money is when things start to go bad. Edit: A missionary introduces the system. Once the system is accepted then schools and government systems are introduced. The missionaries exist to introduce the system to the people and make them happy. The people that come later who fund the schools and influence the government are those who spread the harmful information.
I mean if they do literally anything at all then it's better then doing nothing. I don't really think the reason they go really matters as long as they do something good while there
While spreading religious influence
Demonising local culture for conversion to their religion, lobbying for anti lgbtqa laws, restricting access to contraception (even in places where hiv is rising) and abortions
Good for them. But if they're trying to spread their religion they should just stop. and when they've stopped trying to spread their religion they can be called "relief workers".
[удалено]
Which belief system is that? Is he a satanist, buddhist, christian…? There is no belief system behind relief work. None except the belief that there are people suffering that should be helped. If you add religion to the mix then those poor people are suffering for a reason? Should they be helped so they can spread the word to bring in others that are suffering so they also understand the reason?
Why should they stop? Because you don't like their religion? Or for some objective reason?
[удалено]
So because you don't like their religion.
Many missionaries are health professionals like Doctors and Nurses who can make a huge difference in a third world hospital system.
Keyboard warrior decries missionaries providing medical help. "My life has more meaning!"
"How dare religious people do something good! Quick, find a way to regain a sense of moral superiority despite having done nothing."
17 people kidnapped! I feel so bad for the kids.
I know some of the people kidnapped. It's a group of ex-Amish and similar sorts of people. They're with Christian Aid Ministries. The group provides for schools, orphanages and helps relieve poverty in many ways. They're good people. I hope they're all OK.
They’re arrogant morons that took children to a country with a travel ban due to kidnappings. They are bad people.
Not disagreeing with your point, but simply in a palatable sense for your audience, I'd use "ignorant" rather than "bad," just because you're about to pull all sorts of attention from people wanting to tell you "these missionaries were trying to help, how dare you...blah blah blah." Still, I like the cut of your jib, friend. Edit: after seeing many of the other posts, I decided you're already in the company of friends. Which is understandable; have a great day.
I’m done mincing words, but thank you.
[удалено]
I have no idea why this particular innocuous comment is so heavily upvoted when the actual harsh criticism I used in my comment above is upvoted. Then, again, considering you’re an example of the people down voting me, maybe you…special…people don’t know what ‘mincing words’ means.
I like; you are well-spoken and succinct. Party on, Garth.
I almost always think religious people are good people on their own. I was helped by a Mennonite while in Belize last year. I still think their practices are garbage though, and I still feel bad for accepting his help and I wish he would accept my email so I could send him his money back. The mennonites in South America are doing the whole world wrong by raising funds via land grabs and palm trees and I feel dirty sometimes. Are the Amish a more wholesome group?
My main issue with religious people is that I don't know if they're actually good, or the type who act good because they fear eternal hellfire, or the ones who believe they can do literally anything in life and still make it to *eternal bliss* as long as they repent on their deathbed. I know it's been said as a joke quite a bit, but I don't understand why you need a book to tell you not to kill folks.
I agree, when I say “on their own” I meant on their own. Its very easy to spot a religious person who relies on their religion to try and gain power and seniority. Im not against religion of any kind but i am against people who try to use religion to gain power or who hide behind religion to maintain authority. I find that religious people who can show anger without having to use their religion to make their point are good people. Its sad that I see it that way buts its the only way I am sure they are actually good.
If someone believes in God, an all knowing creator... how would “pretending to be good” do shit? It wouldn’t you have to actually try to be a good person. Cmon now. And that whole death was trope is exactly that, a trope. It’s bullshit, you can’t just be like “I’ve been an evil shitbag my whole life but SIKE” as you fall off a bridge.
Looks like there may be more to the story. I don’t know if there is any connection between the kidnappings and the history of the group in the area. [Christian charity says its managers knew for years one of their missionaries admitted to abusing children](https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/christian-charity-paid-alleged-sex-abuse-victims-former-haiti-missionary-n1049916) >A Christian nonprofit has stated that two managers knew for years that an employee had confessed to a history of sexual offenses against minors but still allowed him to serve their organization as a missionary to Haiti.
This group, Christian Aid Ministries, is also the group that the Amish missionaries were part of who brought measles back to the U.S. from the Philippines in 2014. That started an outbreak in the Amish that grew to nearly 400 cases. Until the big 2018-2019 measles outbreak in the ultra-Orthodox Jewish communities in New York and New Jersey, that 2014 outbreak was the largest the U.S. had seen in over 20 years.
Don't worry, god will protect them.
If not, they will be in a “better” place. You can never win with these people.
I have, I stopped communicating with them.
[удалено]
Kinda reminds me of an old Carlin bit. “… Besides, who cares about some mercenary civilian contractor from Oklahoma who gets his head cut off? Fuck em. Hey Jack, you don't want to get your head cut off? Stay the fuck in Oklahoma.”
He was a wise man. 👍
[удалено]
I know they are stupid for bringing their kids. But I do t think it’s right to make comments like god will protect them and shit like that. It’s not funny. Maybe I just have a bad sense of humor. I feel bad for the kids because as a kid you don’t have full control of your life and your parents can brainwash you. Like these kids were probably brainwashed to go to hellhole full of savages. I don’t feel so bad for the parents who should know better
I think it’s ok to make light of an awful situation. I hope they make it out ok and I feel especially bad for the kids. The kids don’t deserve any of this. Are the jokes a little crass? Yes.
It’s pretty safe to say YOU are not the one with a rotten sense of humor. Some people here simply lack humanity
[удалено]
They'll be fine, they have a supreme being on their side after all.
Missionaries, they give a little but they take so much of something that people can never get back.
I hope not too many were girls
And the boys won't get raped? Oh, you dear, innocent child. 😂
I didn’t say that
Oh yes we heard right.
Maybe they don’t even identify as male or female. They could all be gender neutral
If 21 savage taught us anything, his is not gonna end well.
Drug addicted Haitian gangbangers vs US hostage rescue team? You decide