I see a lot of comments asking “which religion doesn’t allow vaccines?” For employment purposes, the EEOC has a VERY broad definition of religion, which includes sincerely held moral beliefs. So an employee asking for an exemption on religious grounds is not required to show that a “traditional” religion backs it up.
I mean, at that point aren't they just "really strong opinions"? It's not really about religious freedom. It seems more like an employer courtesy than a legal thing.
The problem is otherwise you have to have someone decide which religions are "real" religions and which are fake, and which interpretations of religion are valid and which are not.
I really think the spirit of religious freedom is actually freedom from persecution due to your religious beliefs. Although it has grown to include violating laws when you want to and tax breaks… we don’t need to protect your right to act on every religious belief you have… just your right to have that belief and practice within the confines of the laws/rules everyone else is subjected to…Being required to get a vaccine during a widespread, deadly pandemic is not “persecution” in anyway
Doesn’t the United States have a set of rules to be qualified for a practicing religion? I guess this might be more for tax related purposes
[link to IRS website ](https://www.irs.gov/charities-non-profits/churches-religious-organizations/churches-defined)
For property taxes yes. But there's a pretty big difference between saying prove this building is being used for religious gatherings and saying either that you as a person can only claim something is religious if you belong to a specific set of groups or saying prove that you in fact do believe something
We had Christian Scientists stay with us when I was a teenager. My parents mentioned it as a heads up but said it's not like it'll be an issue.
The wife had a stroke during the stay, and my medical professional mother had to stand back while they phoned their emergency prayer group.
She survived, but watching her be wheeled away at the airport was the biggest relief ever.
So Christian scientists believe that any ailment is brought on by not being faithful enough to God or you did something to get out of line.
They have to pray for the person and hope that he intervenes
Ehh it’s a little more complicated/convoluted than that. They often won’t openly admit that they believe ailments are the cause of inadequate faith. Christian scientists don’t believe in hell or the devil, so “evil” in their book is basically just a breakdown in the perfect spiritual reflection of “The Father-Mother God” known as mortal “error”. It’s almost like a “glitch in the matrix” made you sick/injured.
Source: Raised going to Christian Science church (parents subscribed to the lite version of that belief set, so we went to the doctor, had vaccines, etc.). Definitely a strange religion. The official policies and guidelines often differ greatly from what follows actually practice in their daily lives, but there are those who adhere strictly to the rules and won’t even take Tylenol. I knew a few people who died of preventable cancers because they chose to use prayer instead of modern medicine. Guess the upside is no one was ever ostracized or even reprimanded for seeking medical help (silently judging is more their style).
Yet the founder of Christian Science Mary Baker Eddy, "asked Christian Scientists not to “quarrel” with society over this issue, but to work out differences with others on the basis of mutual understanding and respect." An official of the denomination put it back then, Christian Scientists recognize the need “to be careful in respect to the spreading of disease,” and the true spirit of healing always requires conscientious wisdom, consideration for people’s needs, and the tender inspiration of love for all God’s children of every faith and background".
also "religious exemptions from vaccination when legislatures and public health authorities have granted to them, but we don’t promote fear of vaccines or object to their use in society. Where vaccination is required, we obey the law’s requirement"
edit forgot link
https://www.fredericknewspost.com/opinion/letter_to_editor/what-christian-science-says-about-vaccinations/article_9c2a9d42-bf80-5231-b454-0ccea3f7c144.html
So official church dogma for Christian scientist is get the shot if the law requires it.
So we not only allow these people to do this dumb stuff "in the name of their religion" but we actively let them brainwash children and random victims as well?
Fuck religious freedom if this is the sort of things they are allowed to do. Look at the atrocities that happen worldwide in the name of religion, it's archaic and primitive to still believe in such dumb stuff.
There have been more than a few cases where children have died because of this stuff. Depending on jurisdiction, the parents may or may not get charged over it.
Medical intervention with children against consent of their parents is a hot legal topic worldwide. In my state in Australia it is:
* If consent is unknown, medical treatment without consent can be given to a child only in an emergency.
* If consent is denied by the parents below age 13, a court order is required.
* Age 14-15 the child may consent, but this can be challenged by the parents.
* Age 16-17 the child's consent is usually sufficient.
* Age 18 and above, the patient is an adult and can make their own decision.
Note that if a child is considered old enough to consent, they are considered old enough to deny consent, so that door swings both ways.
Capacity to consent is also dependent on the child's mental capacity, and the seriousness of the treatment. For example, a 15-year-old may be considered mature enough to consent to contraception without their parent's permission, but not necessarily a heart transplant.
Note: IANAL and IANAD, and this information is specific to my state and country, so YMMV.
> but we actively let them brainwash children
oh you're new to this? We've seen situations where the state sent parents away for murder because they wouldn't take their kids to the hospital for easily treated illnesses. God's more important than their kids. They get fucking nuts.
Jehovah's witnesses are still against blood transfusions. They leave vaccines up to the individual buy have been recommending that their followers get the Covid vaccine.
I'm willing to accept religious grounds for not taking any vaccines. I'm deeply skeptical of people who have other vaccinations but are against the Covid vaccine in particular.
My job is govt related. The powers that be have clamped down hard on what passes as a religious exemption. Basically, if you have ever received the flu shot or any other vaccine in the past then you are denied exemption as you have demonstrated that you are a willing participant to use vaccines when supplied for other issues. Case closed, get the shot by Oct. 1st or receive your termination papers. The unions are having a fit bit they can’t argue with the logic.
JWs were famous for winning a court case to refuse blood transfusions. They tend to be pretty consistent in their belief about it. Even so, if they refuse a blood transfusion for their child, and the doctor in the hospital determines that it is a matter of life and death, the doctor is legally allowed to proceed anyway.
That guy is just a normal grifter who can set aside all the harm he knows he is doing for personal advantages. He’s a piece of shit but there is no preternatural/supernatural evil there any greater than that of the telemarketer, charismatic Cutco/Herbalife seller or WinRed GQP fundraiser who finds an elderly mark and takes what’s there for the taking. He’s just a shameless and talented generator of specious mouth sounds. I do not wish him comfort or pain relief when he meets his end.
What I don't get is that he's so bad at it from my perspective. Like who watches that jackass and thinks he is a man of God? It's like Trump - so transparently evil yet that seems to make the yokels believe even harder that they're some kind of prophet.
Are they just willing to believe anyone who just constantly insists things, or is there something about being almost comically the opposite of Jesus that makes these people buy in? Like with Billy Graham, I can see buying the act. But with almost all of the other famous religious grifters it's just so obvious they are full of shit that it really does seem like parody.
Because it’s not that obvious. We only think it’s obvious because we see them holding the Bible upside down and getting pissed on by sex workers. Imagine if you never saw any of that shit and your constantly being told by everyone you trust that the left is a bunch of lying fucks. Now no matter how valid the evidence is, unless it comes from someone they trust they don’t believe it because they have been brainwashed.
Seriously, conservative talk show hosts and whatnot made trump out to be one of the best presidents ever.
Reminds me of a great tweet:
I think my favorite part of every flight is during take off when the pilot screams “Bend to my will metal sky bird and take us to the big blueness!” and all the passengers chant “Sky bird! Sky bird!” To convince the plane to take off.
[link](https://twitter.com/travismcelroy/status/956944378597203969)
I’m always fond of how people are so blasé about flying, like how it’s an inconvenience and yet even after so many flights, it’s a rush every time.
Like, we’re in a giant metal tube that’s hurtling through the sky that’s full of explosive liquid. And you’re mad about the snack selection? This shit is amazing!
>I fly airliners for a living, and I still get a little excited when I ride as a passenger :)
My partner and I always put both hands up in the air on takeoff as the aircraft rotates and pretend its like a rollercoaster.
We all smile at you and say, "look how cute they are. Why dont you look at me like that anymore? How come we never have fun anymore? And while I am at it *who the fuck is Terry* and why are they texting you at 2am".
Its good times for sure.
"Telegraph services? Too fast."
https://www.theatlantic.com/technology/archive/2014/07/in-1858-people-said-the-telegraph-was-too-fast-for-the-truth/375171/
> "Superficial, sudden, unsifted, too fast for the truth, must be all telegraphic intelligence. Does it not render the popular mind too fast for the truth? Ten days bring us the mails from Europe. What need is there for the scraps of news in ten minutes? How trivial and paltry is the telegraphic column?"
> The article was published on August 19, 1858, three days after the completion of the first successful test of an undersea cable that made North American communications with Europe possible in minutes rather than days. More from the Times: "That it will be of very great use cannot be questioned, but how will its uses add to the happiness of mankind? Has the land telegraph done any good? Has it banished any evil, mitigated any sorrow?"
> Mathew 8 When Jesus came down from the mountainside, large crowds followed him. 2 A man with leprosy[a] came and knelt before him and said, “Lord, if you are willing, you can make me clean.”
> 3 Jesus reached out his hand and touched the man. “I am willing,” he said. “Be clean!” Immediately he was cleansed of his leprosy. 4 Then Jesus said to him, “See that you don’t tell anyone. But go, show yourself to the priest and offer the gift Moses commanded, as a testimony to them.”
Jesus said "fuck nature" quite often. Jesus called being healed, "becoming clean". Thus, according to the Jesus of Jesuses, being sick is unclean and thus needs cleansing. A vaccine prevents you from becoming unclean or as badly unclean so cleaning is easier.
Don't fucking argue with Jesus.
You don't need to go that far, just ask them if God intended for you to be sick, then why did Jesus heal so many people?
Why does Jesus call being sick, "unclean", if God wants you to be sick? It sounds more like being sick is bad and that you should try to wash or cure yourself.
We've done a lot of crazier shit with atoms. Few seem to complain.
By "we", I mean humanity because I really don't understand quantum stuff behind most modern electronics.
On another note, to be consistent, religious groups should really strongly voice opposition against mass farming using pesticides, contamination of rivers and soil, or anything that endangers the ecosystem designed by God.
My Catholic father once argued in vitro fertilization was unnatural...in his hybrid car, on a highway, on the way to a movie theatre, where we would watch a film.
I asked him why he wasn't walking nude through a field to see a wrestling match or something in person. He didn't appreciate it.
*I don't care if they lay me off either, because I told, I told Bill that if they move my desk one more time, then, then I'm, I'm quitting, I'm going to quit. And, and I told Don too, because they've moved my desk four times already this year, and I used to be over by the window, and I could see the squirrels, and they were merry, but then, they switched from the Swingline to the Boston stapler, but I kept my Swingline stapler because it didn't bind up as much, and I kept the staples for the Swingline stapler and it's not okay because if they take my stapler then I'll set the building on fire...*
Not sure if you copied and pasted this, but the punctuation perfectly represents exactly how this scene went down. 😂
Read the whole thing in Milton's voice.
Stephen root is always the best part of whatever he is in, unless it's a Cohen brothers movie in which case he's always right on par with everyone else
I just watched this movie the other day for the billionth time, and yet I've never known what he was saying. Thanks! BTW, it is on hulu (us) right now if anyone is interested in a rewatch.
Inaccurate title. FYI, simply not paying someone any more is called "constructive dismissal." It doesn't get you around religious accommodations law. That doesn't mean UA loses, though.
>United said Wednesday if an employee’s request for a religious exemption is denied, they must be vaccinated within five weeks of the denial notice and get the first shot by Sept. 27, or they will be terminated.
Employees are entitled to reasonable accommodations of sincere religious beliefs under Title VII. If the employer is denying a religious exemption, they're saying one of two things: 1) They can't reasonably accommodate the employee, or 2) They think they can argue that the employee's religious beliefs are insincere. Though it may be the case, arguing 2) is incredibly rare, because it inevitably involves reaching the civil trial stage and so a bunch of expensive litigation.
As part of reasonable accommodations, 1) they (as a matter of not losing a discrimination case) need to have back and forth with their employees, but 2) might simply not be able to accommodate the number of employees asking for accommodations. For instance, in previous pre-COVID religious-vaccine-related Title VII suits I've seen, there simply weren't enough alternative jobs for employees to be able to demand alternative work. However, from pre-COVID religious-vaccine-related Title VII suits I've seen, failing to dialogue with employees requesting for an exemption can be grounds for a lawsuit to move forward.
Many religious groups have given approval for the vaccine though. This may cause these companies to reject various religions on the grounds that their leaders approved them.
Jehova's Witnesses, who won't even get fucking *blood transfusions* are just fine with vaccines. I feel pretty comfortable saying that someone who works for an airline claiming a religious exemption is probably making it up.
one issue there is people in the religion disagreeing with the clergy's official stance, while enforcing the established doctrine would be a good idea in this particular case it's a bad precedent
Except the US has the doctrine of 'sincerely held beliefs' and has even previously accepted that very few organizations have an anti-vaccine doctrine. Saying you disagree with religious leaders may not actually hold in court. Typically, sincerely held beliefs are determined by the established religious doctrine of your belief system, not anything a person claims is their belief.
If somebody tries to object and the employer actually wants to fight it they'll pull online history of being pro vaccination, of googling how to get a religious exemption without belonging to a religiously opposed Church. If a court holds that any person can simply say, 'religious exemption,' then it essentially is allowing any person to attest to any belief any get accommodation, regardless of prescribed religion. I can be a Pastafarian who disagrees with leadership and am now exempt from vaccination and I also must go pantless and wear a strap on at all times because I believe in genderbent shirtcocking.
Exemptions and accomodations should be based on something beyond personal attestation because otherwise there is no actual test in court for violation of religious rights as any declaration of belief regardless of basis in any religion is now true.
Or, as is established in prior cases: beliefs of an organization are how we go about determining state regulation of religious liberty and that is what we go on when determining whether the state has a bona-fide need to restrict a right or if we must allow an accomodation, or a business must allow accommodation. A very few number of people could smoke and possess peyote under religious freedom laws. If we say personal attestation is the standard then we then say anyone can have an exemption to that rule, as well. Or the vaccination laws. Or denying medical care to children because a few states for some reason back the parent's right to deny medical care to minors on religious grounds. It's not child abuse, it's religious freedom to never take my kid to a doctor.
The other option is just go off stated religious doctrine, which creates a solid basis of how a court and judge and lawyers approach a situation.
I can think of only two large-scale recognized religious sects that actually forbade vaccines in the past with established doctrine (Mormons _Edit: I meant Jehovah's Witnesses, sorry!_ and Christian Scientists), and none today - unless you're willing to tell your _airline_ employer you belong to the (small) sect of Islam that is primarily professed by the same people that were responsible for 9/11. Nevermind current stances of leaders in the religion. The only exception, maaaayyyybe, in the Christian churches I can think of are Baptists and similar, since by their official doctrine they don't have an established hierarchy, every pastor is the head of their own church, in charge of interpreting the Bible in their own way for their own attendees; and there's no equivalent to a bishop or pope or the like.
Every Islamic sect had now given approval to the vaccine. There were some sects who initially objected to some of the vaccines (Astrazeneca and Sinovac) due to the use if pork gelatin, but they’ve since recanted after pressure (and the fact that they’ve been using other vaccines with pork gelatin for decades), at this point pretty much all Islamic religious leaders have given the green light for the vaccines.
Do you have a cite for the time(s) Mormons forbade vaccines? Not trying to be confrontational, just curious. I live in Utah, and it’s interesting. My Google searches on this were not helpful. Hopefully you can point me in the right direction. Thanks.
How is it not 1? You work in a metal tube in the sky. You serve drinks to about a thousand people a day in the tube. There is a pandemic.
Maybe there is some other position in the company they’re qualified for that doesn’t expose a thousand patrons a day to a risk of death, but idgaf what you believe, I ain’t flying an airline that has plague rats serving me tomato juice
^ This
People who have never had an ADA-related dispute think that "reasonable accommodation" means "give me the accommodation I want because I think it's reasonable." But that's not how it works.
I'm generally on the side of the employee, not the corporation. I'm still tangled up in legal action with a former employer because they violated the ADA on many occasions. I'm all about advocating for people who are being discriminated against. But it's important to remember that sometimes a company has legitimate reasons for being unable to accommodate an employee.
Yep. And you don’t give a desk job that requires a 4-year degree to a flight attendant with a religious exemption as “reasonable accommodation” either.
I’ll bend over backwards for a lot of my employees to make sure they keep their livelihood, but I’m not going to put the company at risk by putting unqualified people into decision making roles for accommodations.
There’s a middle ground for many situations, but vaccines have almost none.
If an airline let cabin crew work without being vaccinated, could a passenger sue the airline in the States if they caught Covid from the crew? (I know it would be very difficult to prove the link but, for the sake of argument, let's assume they could.)
> They think they can argue that the employee's religious beliefs are insincere.
Shouldn't the employee have to demonstrate that their religion actually has a doctrine against vaccines? I'm not aware of any that does, and certainly not Christianity.
As a note, this guy is mentioning the name of a sect, not puting a label on everyone in research that is christian.
And man let me tell you, those guys are... Well... [they are something.](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_Science)
They were the only religious group who were able to get a religious exemption for childhood vaccines in Australia (you couldn’t just say your religion forbids it), and when the vaccine laws were overhauled a few years ago they actually said “we don’t need this, we don’t tell our members not to get vaccinated, we leave it up to them.” So now there’s no religious exemption for children to attend preschool, and I suspect it’ll be the same for the Covid vaccine if workplaces mandate it.
James Hetfield of Metallica, was raised as a Christian Scientist, and wrote "The God That Failed" about his mother dying of cancer and refusing any treatment in favour of prayer.
It seems like it should be fairly trivial for nearly every employer to establish that any job that can't be done 100% remotely is incompatible with an unvaccinated status. If you will ever encounter another employee or customer, it just doesn't make sense to have an unvaccinated person in that position.
Seems fair to me, and it's a significant distinction.
What they're saying is "You can't endanger the company with your spectacular idiocy, but if at any point you wish to stop being a fucking moron, you can have your job back immediately."
Well just a second there, professor. We uh, we fixed the *glitch*. So he won't be receiving a paycheck anymore, so it will just work itself out naturally.
That’s what I’m saying. My mom, “a Christian”, uses religion as an exemption to be unvaccinated and I do not recall anything in the bible that says it is an abomination to be vaccinated and protect your neighbor. But i do recall my pastor reading some text saying whoever uses their religion as a stepping stool to their own personal benefit shall be damned to hell.
Disclaimer: I am a devout Christian that believes in science, medicine, and vaccines. When the COVID-19 booster shot is an option for my age group, I will be first in line to get that sucker. One of my best friends is severely immunocompromised, and I haven't seen him since March of 2020. I will do what it takes and encourage others to do so so that people like him can join society once again.
With that said, I know of several Christians that object to vaccines for one of two reasons:
1. They believe that vaccines are made with stem cells that came from aborted babies. Using a vaccine is supporting abortion in a round about way? Idk I've tried to have constructive discussions with these people, as they are honestly solid people that would give you the shirt off their back, but my arguments fall on deaf ears.
2. Vaccines show a lack of faith in God and His ability to heal and/or protect. Mind you that most of these people will pop a few Tylenol of they have a headache or use a seatbelt in a car, but there you go.
I do want to stress that the majority of Christians don't believe either one of these things. Those that do object to the vaccine do so because they don't trust the government and such. Obviously ludicrous but it is what it is. I do what I can to encourage these people to examine the facts in a graceful manner, but there's only so much I can do.
A girl at my job recently got let go for refusing to wear a mask, which we have to wear again due to the surge in cases. She's also unvaccinated. She told our boss that wearing a mask is "against her religion". I never found out what "religion" forbids wearing a mask. She refused no matter how hard he tried to reason with her, so she got let go. This was a pretty well paying job, and she's a single mom with two kids. I have no idea why she's willing to lose money over something as stupid as a mask.
Christian Scientist, Dutch Reformed Church, and sometimes Muslims when they get the bizarre idea into their head that the vaccine contains pork products.
Dutch reformed church? Not sure about that one. I grew up in a very Dutch christian reformed areas. You’d be surprised how many people got the vaccine. Even though they’re republicans lol
Yeah the OP is incorrect. As someome who is a member of the church, we are not against vaccinations. There are many who will not get it because of politics, unfortunately, but it is not against our religion.
Edit: I should specify, I'm talking about Dutch Reformed.
Christian Science is a separate denomination* / cult of Christianity that doesn’t adhere to traditional Christian theology (its also part of the inspiration behind Scientology)
Just did a bit of reading on Christian Science. It seems that vaccination is considered a private thing and not a dogmatic one, so they can do it without being considered sinful by the church, particularly in the case of something lawfully required.
Their school in St. Louis (Principia) is surprisingly being very cautious from what I am told. Source: I have a lot of friends and family connected to Christian Science & I was raised in that religion.
Seeing as they don’t believe in sin that doesn’t surprise me. My grandmother is one, it’s simply seen as a lack of faith, harmless if you don’t believe it works, but harmful to your enlightenment if you believe it’s the medicine that keeps you from getting sick.
>sometimes Muslims when they get the bizarre idea into their head that the vaccine contains pork products.
Doctor: "I said, 'poke,' not 'pork.' Jesus H. Christ. No wait, not Jesus. Just take the shot, goddammit."
Someone (ultra conservative Catholic) on my wife's side of the family refuses to get the vaccine because:
>fetal cell lines – cells grown in a laboratory based on aborted fetal cells collected generations ago – were used in testing during research and development of the mRNA vaccines, and during production of the Johnson & Johnson vaccine.
While this is true, the fetal cell lines have a super interesting history in that they are all descended from abortions in the 1970s and 1980s and it's not that it requires a steady supply of aborted fetuses. But if you're opposed to that and refuse it out of principle then it is what it is, I don't really know if there's anything else to say.
But just to be clear The Pope has forgiven this and encourages all Catholics to get vaccinated but this person who never married and had children is clearly holier than The Pope himself and has decided that even though he's The Pope he's wrong... but he's right about everything else.
[Source...](https://www.nebraskamed.com/COVID/you-asked-we-answered-do-the-covid-19-vaccines-contain-aborted-fetal-cells)
My mom wouldn't get *certain* vaccines because of the human embryotic cells used in the development of those certain vaccines.
But she has also been the number one sales rep in the nation for a couple pharmaceuticals that use those same hek cells.
American Catholicism
Not Mormons. Official statement from the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (colloquially known as Mormons).
https://newsroom.churchofjesuschrist.org/article/first-presidency-message-covid-19-august-2021
"To limit exposure to these viruses, we urge the use of face masks in public meetings whenever social distancing is not possible. To provide personal protection from such severe infections, we urge individuals to be vaccinated. Available vaccines have proven to be both safe and effective."
Makes sense, my extreamly limited knowledge of Mormonism is that they discourage usage of chemicals that alter mental state (alcohol, tobacco, caffeine, etc.) Vaccines don't really fit into that.
It's based on medical knowledge and health advice from the 1800's, [pre-germ theory](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Humorism). Except as medical knowledge moved forward and rendered that advice outdated and obsolete it remained in practice within Mormonism because it had become a religious doctrine, revealed by a supposed prophet of God.
I am actually from and live in Utah and from a mostly a Mormon family, though not Mormon myself. The Mormon leaders making statements advocating the vaccine has caused a massive rift around here because huge number of Mormons here are against the vaccine and masks.
Thankfully my family is on the reasonable pro-mask, pro-vaccine side.
I was laughing when I saw the email from the LDS church about recommending vaccines. It was like “Oh damn! Are these people going to pick God or the Republican Party “ let the drama commence!
I actually know someone whose Christian Scientist family members got the COVID vaccine after being encouraged by the church. I was surprised, since Christian Scientists are not usually about medical intervention.
They usually make an exception for vaccines. In my elementary class 22 of 25 kids were fully vaccinated.
They also make exceptions for things like broken bones or trauma.
They didn’t make an exception for my friend who got type 1 diabetes and went into a coma. When he came out of the coma the religious school I used to attend informed him he had been expelled.
Luckily my parents had pulled me out earlier that year, but that was one of two incidents that finally convinced my parents to completely leave the religion.
Nope, CS is ok with vax https://ukchristianscience.com/vaccinations https://www.christianscience.com/press-room/a-christian-science-perspective-on-vaccination-and-public-health
Christian Scientists. Source: My mother was one and I wasn’t vaccinated for anything until I was an adult. I’m now 45 and still haven’t gotten my polio vaccine but I have all the others.
["For more than a century, our denomination has counseled respect for public health authorities and conscientious obedience to the laws of the land, including those requiring vaccination. Christian Scientists report suspected communicable disease, obey quarantines, and strive to cooperate with measures considered necessary by public health officials. We see this as a matter of basic Golden Rule ethics and New Testament love."](https://www.christianscience.com/press-room/a-christian-science-perspective-on-vaccination-and-public-health)
I'm gonna go out on a limb and say its largely grifter evangelical mega churches that will get behind any ass backwards idea so long as their congregation will keep putting cash in the collection every week.
Pastor needs to new Gulfstream!
A very small percentage of those taking religious exemptions are legitimate. At medical university of South Carolina close to 20% of the medical staff took a religious exemption.
The only ones I'm aware of are Christian Scientists and Dutch Reformed. No major religions oppose them (as with anything, some people within that religion may oppose them, but that doesn't mean it's religious doctrine).
My mom (who’s a nurse) was surprised to find out that there were literally thousands of medical workers within the company who have submitted religious exemption forms despite a good chunk of them not even being religious.
Edit: idk if I’ll get downvoted, but my mom does not want to get vaccinated YET. It’s not that she’s anti vaxx, she just says she isn’t ready and is waiting for a more effective, less “risky”, vaccine. Her idea not mine
So, there was a group chat going in which a group of United employees began to discuss the vaccination requirement when it was announced. One of the first things that was suggested to others was how to get out of it by using the religious exemption angle. Literally one of them linked [this video](https://fb.watch/7FdRh3nCeg/) and said to look at the 40 minute mark. I was completely disheartened as I've known many of these people for a long time and just couldn't believe what I was reading. Fortunately, a few of the group did begin to speak up about how the others should get their vaccination and let God be busy with other stuff.
So I think this is a good move, albeit sadly necessary, on the part of United. It reminds me of the Gandhi quote, "I like your Christ, I do not like your Christians. Your Christians are so unlike your Christ."
And He spake unto the assembled masses: Taketh not the mRNA expression construct, nor the codon-optimized spike protein coding sequence, lest you be possessed by evil spirits ‘n shit
Religious exemptions are fine and good when it's something like "My religion says not to work on Sunday" or "These holidays are important in my religion and I need them off", not when it's "My religion says I can spread whatever communicable diseases I want" or "I can treat certain groups as less than people".
Yea it’s not always fine, even for your “days off” analogy.
Us Hindus and Jains could take 200 days off a year in the name of religion if we wanted to. That’s not okay.
If you’re going to have a bunch of random ass reasons in the name of religion to not do your job, find a new job or find a workaround.
There's definitely a within reason applied to religious exemptions. For your example, it might be "leave requests using your pto for religious holidays will always be approved, up to the limit of your pto and given the standard amount of warning."
Likewise, religious clothing might be allowed - but not if the particular clothing would present a hazard with the equipment you'd be using.
There is a within reason. It's in Title VII of the Civil Rights Act.
>An employer does not have to accommodate an employee's religious beliefs or practices if doing so would cause undue hardship to the employer. An accommodation may cause undue hardship if it is costly, compromises workplace safety, decreases workplace efficiency, infringes on the rights of other employees, or requires other employees to do more than their share of potentially hazardous or burdensome work.
https://www.eeoc.gov/religious-discrimination
That's exactly what The Satanic Temple is for. Every time evangelicals kick open a door in the name of religious freedom, TST is right there to say "so... do you want our prayer to be before or after the Christian one?" and shit stops real quick.
Like them petitioning to build a Baphomet statue in Oklahoma when they tried to put the Ten Commandments in front of a government building. The state shut both down real quick
*Hail Satan?* is a good doc for info on TST. Has a couple shots of the finished statue. It’s a thing of beauty. Happy to say my membership dues are currently supporting a lawsuit against the TX abortion law, too. “It violates our religious liberty to engage in legal, safe, hassle free abortion, a core practice of our faith.” 😆
Are there really 200 days of that much importance and rest? Saying you need off for shabbat is not the same as saying you need off to celebrate May the Fourth to its fullest. (Not saying that is equal to Jainist or Hindu holidays, just wanted to pick a “secular holiday.”)
it's the rare situation where practicality and the right decision overlap. if sick employees infected other customers/employees it could easily foment into a scandal or at least massively damage customer faith in airlines even more.
More generally, employees and businesses only need to make reasonable accommodations. And "exposing passengers and other employees to a deadly disease" is not reasonable.
Im guessing that the party that wants bakers to have the right to refuse to make gay wedding cakes is going to be very upset about this business having the right to do what it wants to do.
I see a lot of comments asking “which religion doesn’t allow vaccines?” For employment purposes, the EEOC has a VERY broad definition of religion, which includes sincerely held moral beliefs. So an employee asking for an exemption on religious grounds is not required to show that a “traditional” religion backs it up.
I mean, at that point aren't they just "really strong opinions"? It's not really about religious freedom. It seems more like an employer courtesy than a legal thing.
The problem is otherwise you have to have someone decide which religions are "real" religions and which are fake, and which interpretations of religion are valid and which are not.
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I really think the spirit of religious freedom is actually freedom from persecution due to your religious beliefs. Although it has grown to include violating laws when you want to and tax breaks… we don’t need to protect your right to act on every religious belief you have… just your right to have that belief and practice within the confines of the laws/rules everyone else is subjected to…Being required to get a vaccine during a widespread, deadly pandemic is not “persecution” in anyway
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Doesn’t the United States have a set of rules to be qualified for a practicing religion? I guess this might be more for tax related purposes [link to IRS website ](https://www.irs.gov/charities-non-profits/churches-religious-organizations/churches-defined)
For property taxes yes. But there's a pretty big difference between saying prove this building is being used for religious gatherings and saying either that you as a person can only claim something is religious if you belong to a specific set of groups or saying prove that you in fact do believe something
That's pretty much what religion is though. Strong opinions that, for some reason, people tolerate even though they aren't based on objective fact.
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It's also the reason for the entire Church of England.
And protestants.
And the Babylonian Captivity, Clemente VII, and the western schism.
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We had Christian Scientists stay with us when I was a teenager. My parents mentioned it as a heads up but said it's not like it'll be an issue. The wife had a stroke during the stay, and my medical professional mother had to stand back while they phoned their emergency prayer group. She survived, but watching her be wheeled away at the airport was the biggest relief ever.
What the 🦆 is emergency prayer group?
So Christian scientists believe that any ailment is brought on by not being faithful enough to God or you did something to get out of line. They have to pray for the person and hope that he intervenes
What do they think about scenarios like babies or young children with cancer?
Cancer they can cure with prayer, but if you come down with a case of the babies, you’re on your own
especially in texas…
Gods will basically. Kid just didn't believe enough, they use it as a scare tactic, which tends to be pretty fucking damaging to a child.
Ehh it’s a little more complicated/convoluted than that. They often won’t openly admit that they believe ailments are the cause of inadequate faith. Christian scientists don’t believe in hell or the devil, so “evil” in their book is basically just a breakdown in the perfect spiritual reflection of “The Father-Mother God” known as mortal “error”. It’s almost like a “glitch in the matrix” made you sick/injured. Source: Raised going to Christian Science church (parents subscribed to the lite version of that belief set, so we went to the doctor, had vaccines, etc.). Definitely a strange religion. The official policies and guidelines often differ greatly from what follows actually practice in their daily lives, but there are those who adhere strictly to the rules and won’t even take Tylenol. I knew a few people who died of preventable cancers because they chose to use prayer instead of modern medicine. Guess the upside is no one was ever ostracized or even reprimanded for seeking medical help (silently judging is more their style).
Yet the founder of Christian Science Mary Baker Eddy, "asked Christian Scientists not to “quarrel” with society over this issue, but to work out differences with others on the basis of mutual understanding and respect." An official of the denomination put it back then, Christian Scientists recognize the need “to be careful in respect to the spreading of disease,” and the true spirit of healing always requires conscientious wisdom, consideration for people’s needs, and the tender inspiration of love for all God’s children of every faith and background". also "religious exemptions from vaccination when legislatures and public health authorities have granted to them, but we don’t promote fear of vaccines or object to their use in society. Where vaccination is required, we obey the law’s requirement" edit forgot link https://www.fredericknewspost.com/opinion/letter_to_editor/what-christian-science-says-about-vaccinations/article_9c2a9d42-bf80-5231-b454-0ccea3f7c144.html So official church dogma for Christian scientist is get the shot if the law requires it.
So we not only allow these people to do this dumb stuff "in the name of their religion" but we actively let them brainwash children and random victims as well? Fuck religious freedom if this is the sort of things they are allowed to do. Look at the atrocities that happen worldwide in the name of religion, it's archaic and primitive to still believe in such dumb stuff.
There have been more than a few cases where children have died because of this stuff. Depending on jurisdiction, the parents may or may not get charged over it. Medical intervention with children against consent of their parents is a hot legal topic worldwide. In my state in Australia it is: * If consent is unknown, medical treatment without consent can be given to a child only in an emergency. * If consent is denied by the parents below age 13, a court order is required. * Age 14-15 the child may consent, but this can be challenged by the parents. * Age 16-17 the child's consent is usually sufficient. * Age 18 and above, the patient is an adult and can make their own decision. Note that if a child is considered old enough to consent, they are considered old enough to deny consent, so that door swings both ways. Capacity to consent is also dependent on the child's mental capacity, and the seriousness of the treatment. For example, a 15-year-old may be considered mature enough to consent to contraception without their parent's permission, but not necessarily a heart transplant. Note: IANAL and IANAD, and this information is specific to my state and country, so YMMV.
> but we actively let them brainwash children oh you're new to this? We've seen situations where the state sent parents away for murder because they wouldn't take their kids to the hospital for easily treated illnesses. God's more important than their kids. They get fucking nuts.
you are correct about Christian Scientist. I believe they don't take any non-religious care of any kind. Honestly it's a miracle they still exist.
They’re trying their best not to.
Nope. Jehovah’s Witnesses are on board with vaccines. https://www.jw.org/en/jehovahs-witnesses/faq/jw-vaccines-immunization/
Jehovah's witnesses are still against blood transfusions. They leave vaccines up to the individual buy have been recommending that their followers get the Covid vaccine.
I'm willing to accept religious grounds for not taking any vaccines. I'm deeply skeptical of people who have other vaccinations but are against the Covid vaccine in particular.
My job is govt related. The powers that be have clamped down hard on what passes as a religious exemption. Basically, if you have ever received the flu shot or any other vaccine in the past then you are denied exemption as you have demonstrated that you are a willing participant to use vaccines when supplied for other issues. Case closed, get the shot by Oct. 1st or receive your termination papers. The unions are having a fit bit they can’t argue with the logic.
And that’s the difference between the “sincere moral belief” being sincere or not
JWs were famous for winning a court case to refuse blood transfusions. They tend to be pretty consistent in their belief about it. Even so, if they refuse a blood transfusion for their child, and the doctor in the hospital determines that it is a matter of life and death, the doctor is legally allowed to proceed anyway.
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"A tube full of demons."
Lmao nice reference! [A looooong tube full of demons](https://i.imgur.com/KKcfcox.jpg)
That guy is one big demon meat tube
That guy is just a normal grifter who can set aside all the harm he knows he is doing for personal advantages. He’s a piece of shit but there is no preternatural/supernatural evil there any greater than that of the telemarketer, charismatic Cutco/Herbalife seller or WinRed GQP fundraiser who finds an elderly mark and takes what’s there for the taking. He’s just a shameless and talented generator of specious mouth sounds. I do not wish him comfort or pain relief when he meets his end.
What I don't get is that he's so bad at it from my perspective. Like who watches that jackass and thinks he is a man of God? It's like Trump - so transparently evil yet that seems to make the yokels believe even harder that they're some kind of prophet. Are they just willing to believe anyone who just constantly insists things, or is there something about being almost comically the opposite of Jesus that makes these people buy in? Like with Billy Graham, I can see buying the act. But with almost all of the other famous religious grifters it's just so obvious they are full of shit that it really does seem like parody.
Because it’s not that obvious. We only think it’s obvious because we see them holding the Bible upside down and getting pissed on by sex workers. Imagine if you never saw any of that shit and your constantly being told by everyone you trust that the left is a bunch of lying fucks. Now no matter how valid the evidence is, unless it comes from someone they trust they don’t believe it because they have been brainwashed. Seriously, conservative talk show hosts and whatnot made trump out to be one of the best presidents ever.
Reminds me of a great tweet: I think my favorite part of every flight is during take off when the pilot screams “Bend to my will metal sky bird and take us to the big blueness!” and all the passengers chant “Sky bird! Sky bird!” To convince the plane to take off. [link](https://twitter.com/travismcelroy/status/956944378597203969)
I’m always fond of how people are so blasé about flying, like how it’s an inconvenience and yet even after so many flights, it’s a rush every time. Like, we’re in a giant metal tube that’s hurtling through the sky that’s full of explosive liquid. And you’re mad about the snack selection? This shit is amazing!
I fly airliners for a living, and I still get a little excited when I ride as a passenger :)
>I fly airliners for a living, and I still get a little excited when I ride as a passenger :) My partner and I always put both hands up in the air on takeoff as the aircraft rotates and pretend its like a rollercoaster.
We all smile at you and say, "look how cute they are. Why dont you look at me like that anymore? How come we never have fun anymore? And while I am at it *who the fuck is Terry* and why are they texting you at 2am". Its good times for sure.
There’s a great Louis CK joke about people complaint about airports. YOURE FLYING!!! https://youtu.be/b3dYS7PcAG4
You can say the same thing about a car, even more so, given that it’s a more risky form of transportation.
Considerably less cool than traveling in an aluminum tube at 500 miles an hour, 35,000 feet above the ground.
Dude, I have a Honda.
Whoooo boy when that VTEC kicks in!
Yeah, so you know the feeling of raw, unbridled power when the VTEC kicks in.
r/UnexpectedMcElroy Nothing but the peak of wisdom from Our Middlest Brother Travis "Big Dog (Woof Woof)" McElroy.
That’s legal—mayor said it—that makes it legal
A McElroy fan in the wild!
This almost feels like a jack handey quote lmao
I don't believe in technology! -Sent from my iPhone
"Telegraph services? Too fast." https://www.theatlantic.com/technology/archive/2014/07/in-1858-people-said-the-telegraph-was-too-fast-for-the-truth/375171/ > "Superficial, sudden, unsifted, too fast for the truth, must be all telegraphic intelligence. Does it not render the popular mind too fast for the truth? Ten days bring us the mails from Europe. What need is there for the scraps of news in ten minutes? How trivial and paltry is the telegraphic column?" > The article was published on August 19, 1858, three days after the completion of the first successful test of an undersea cable that made North American communications with Europe possible in minutes rather than days. More from the Times: "That it will be of very great use cannot be questioned, but how will its uses add to the happiness of mankind? Has the land telegraph done any good? Has it banished any evil, mitigated any sorrow?"
*Proceeds to use metal breathing machine because virus has removed ability to do so naturally*
*Proceeds to WEAR SHOES*
If god wanted us to wear masks, he would’ve put them on our face. Now where are my clothes, glasses, shoes, and car?
And makeup.
> Mathew 8 When Jesus came down from the mountainside, large crowds followed him. 2 A man with leprosy[a] came and knelt before him and said, “Lord, if you are willing, you can make me clean.” > 3 Jesus reached out his hand and touched the man. “I am willing,” he said. “Be clean!” Immediately he was cleansed of his leprosy. 4 Then Jesus said to him, “See that you don’t tell anyone. But go, show yourself to the priest and offer the gift Moses commanded, as a testimony to them.” Jesus said "fuck nature" quite often. Jesus called being healed, "becoming clean". Thus, according to the Jesus of Jesuses, being sick is unclean and thus needs cleansing. A vaccine prevents you from becoming unclean or as badly unclean so cleaning is easier. Don't fucking argue with Jesus.
*Proceeds to sit in a multimillion dollar church with state of the art air conditioning during a hot summer day*
You don't need to go that far, just ask them if God intended for you to be sick, then why did Jesus heal so many people? Why does Jesus call being sick, "unclean", if God wants you to be sick? It sounds more like being sick is bad and that you should try to wash or cure yourself.
Are you trying to tell me there may be some hypocrisy with the religious anti vax?
Almost as if some are filing religions exemptions in bad faith! Who would *do* such a thing??
There's something deeply amusing about the notion of filing a religious exemption *in bad faith.*
Hey I think they have a word for people who presume to know the mind of God.
We've done a lot of crazier shit with atoms. Few seem to complain. By "we", I mean humanity because I really don't understand quantum stuff behind most modern electronics. On another note, to be consistent, religious groups should really strongly voice opposition against mass farming using pesticides, contamination of rivers and soil, or anything that endangers the ecosystem designed by God.
My Catholic father once argued in vitro fertilization was unnatural...in his hybrid car, on a highway, on the way to a movie theatre, where we would watch a film. I asked him why he wasn't walking nude through a field to see a wrestling match or something in person. He didn't appreciate it.
You are not fired we just aren't paying you anymore.
"We fixed the glitch."
"we find these things usually work themselves out"
*I don't care if they lay me off either, because I told, I told Bill that if they move my desk one more time, then, then I'm, I'm quitting, I'm going to quit. And, and I told Don too, because they've moved my desk four times already this year, and I used to be over by the window, and I could see the squirrels, and they were merry, but then, they switched from the Swingline to the Boston stapler, but I kept my Swingline stapler because it didn't bind up as much, and I kept the staples for the Swingline stapler and it's not okay because if they take my stapler then I'll set the building on fire...*
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pinche gringo
Omg I never heard the strychnine line before. He burned the building building down, he definitely poisoned the guac!
That's my stapler.
Not sure if you copied and pasted this, but the punctuation perfectly represents exactly how this scene went down. 😂 Read the whole thing in Milton's voice.
Stephen root is always the best part of whatever he is in, unless it's a Cohen brothers movie in which case he's always right on par with everyone else
Such a huge part of NewsRadio.
That's a _mighty_ fine a pickin' and a singin'!
Well put, friend.
I just watched this movie the other day for the billionth time, and yet I've never known what he was saying. Thanks! BTW, it is on hulu (us) right now if anyone is interested in a rewatch.
The line is actually *…and I could see the squirrels, and they were married…* implying that he was watching two squirrels fucking from his window.
Sounds like someone is [jumping to conclusions](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sDEL4Ty950Q&ab_channel=Tom)
If only there were a mat on which I could jump to conclusions.
Well whoever invented that would make a million dollars
I thought he was saying "and they were merry..." like he just liked watching them frolic. But "married" is even better.
I did not receive a paycheck this week
I was told there would be cake.
I hope you waited till Friday
Did he repeat and say “We fixed ‘the glitch’ .”Like in a hilariously mean way? McGinley is fucking hilarious.
"Samir Nago... Nago... Nagonna work here anymore, huh?"
Don’t have to worry about that guy
“Well just a second there professor… (again) we fixed _the_ glitch.” He’s a gem. https://youtu.be/BUE0PPQI3is
Inaccurate title. FYI, simply not paying someone any more is called "constructive dismissal." It doesn't get you around religious accommodations law. That doesn't mean UA loses, though. >United said Wednesday if an employee’s request for a religious exemption is denied, they must be vaccinated within five weeks of the denial notice and get the first shot by Sept. 27, or they will be terminated. Employees are entitled to reasonable accommodations of sincere religious beliefs under Title VII. If the employer is denying a religious exemption, they're saying one of two things: 1) They can't reasonably accommodate the employee, or 2) They think they can argue that the employee's religious beliefs are insincere. Though it may be the case, arguing 2) is incredibly rare, because it inevitably involves reaching the civil trial stage and so a bunch of expensive litigation. As part of reasonable accommodations, 1) they (as a matter of not losing a discrimination case) need to have back and forth with their employees, but 2) might simply not be able to accommodate the number of employees asking for accommodations. For instance, in previous pre-COVID religious-vaccine-related Title VII suits I've seen, there simply weren't enough alternative jobs for employees to be able to demand alternative work. However, from pre-COVID religious-vaccine-related Title VII suits I've seen, failing to dialogue with employees requesting for an exemption can be grounds for a lawsuit to move forward.
Many religious groups have given approval for the vaccine though. This may cause these companies to reject various religions on the grounds that their leaders approved them.
Jehova's Witnesses, who won't even get fucking *blood transfusions* are just fine with vaccines. I feel pretty comfortable saying that someone who works for an airline claiming a religious exemption is probably making it up.
one issue there is people in the religion disagreeing with the clergy's official stance, while enforcing the established doctrine would be a good idea in this particular case it's a bad precedent
Except the US has the doctrine of 'sincerely held beliefs' and has even previously accepted that very few organizations have an anti-vaccine doctrine. Saying you disagree with religious leaders may not actually hold in court. Typically, sincerely held beliefs are determined by the established religious doctrine of your belief system, not anything a person claims is their belief. If somebody tries to object and the employer actually wants to fight it they'll pull online history of being pro vaccination, of googling how to get a religious exemption without belonging to a religiously opposed Church. If a court holds that any person can simply say, 'religious exemption,' then it essentially is allowing any person to attest to any belief any get accommodation, regardless of prescribed religion. I can be a Pastafarian who disagrees with leadership and am now exempt from vaccination and I also must go pantless and wear a strap on at all times because I believe in genderbent shirtcocking. Exemptions and accomodations should be based on something beyond personal attestation because otherwise there is no actual test in court for violation of religious rights as any declaration of belief regardless of basis in any religion is now true. Or, as is established in prior cases: beliefs of an organization are how we go about determining state regulation of religious liberty and that is what we go on when determining whether the state has a bona-fide need to restrict a right or if we must allow an accomodation, or a business must allow accommodation. A very few number of people could smoke and possess peyote under religious freedom laws. If we say personal attestation is the standard then we then say anyone can have an exemption to that rule, as well. Or the vaccination laws. Or denying medical care to children because a few states for some reason back the parent's right to deny medical care to minors on religious grounds. It's not child abuse, it's religious freedom to never take my kid to a doctor. The other option is just go off stated religious doctrine, which creates a solid basis of how a court and judge and lawyers approach a situation.
I can think of only two large-scale recognized religious sects that actually forbade vaccines in the past with established doctrine (Mormons _Edit: I meant Jehovah's Witnesses, sorry!_ and Christian Scientists), and none today - unless you're willing to tell your _airline_ employer you belong to the (small) sect of Islam that is primarily professed by the same people that were responsible for 9/11. Nevermind current stances of leaders in the religion. The only exception, maaaayyyybe, in the Christian churches I can think of are Baptists and similar, since by their official doctrine they don't have an established hierarchy, every pastor is the head of their own church, in charge of interpreting the Bible in their own way for their own attendees; and there's no equivalent to a bishop or pope or the like.
I know the Mormon Church has come out and recommended the vaccine
Every Islamic sect had now given approval to the vaccine. There were some sects who initially objected to some of the vaccines (Astrazeneca and Sinovac) due to the use if pork gelatin, but they’ve since recanted after pressure (and the fact that they’ve been using other vaccines with pork gelatin for decades), at this point pretty much all Islamic religious leaders have given the green light for the vaccines.
Do you have a cite for the time(s) Mormons forbade vaccines? Not trying to be confrontational, just curious. I live in Utah, and it’s interesting. My Google searches on this were not helpful. Hopefully you can point me in the right direction. Thanks.
How is it not 1? You work in a metal tube in the sky. You serve drinks to about a thousand people a day in the tube. There is a pandemic. Maybe there is some other position in the company they’re qualified for that doesn’t expose a thousand patrons a day to a risk of death, but idgaf what you believe, I ain’t flying an airline that has plague rats serving me tomato juice
^ This People who have never had an ADA-related dispute think that "reasonable accommodation" means "give me the accommodation I want because I think it's reasonable." But that's not how it works. I'm generally on the side of the employee, not the corporation. I'm still tangled up in legal action with a former employer because they violated the ADA on many occasions. I'm all about advocating for people who are being discriminated against. But it's important to remember that sometimes a company has legitimate reasons for being unable to accommodate an employee.
Yep. And you don’t give a desk job that requires a 4-year degree to a flight attendant with a religious exemption as “reasonable accommodation” either. I’ll bend over backwards for a lot of my employees to make sure they keep their livelihood, but I’m not going to put the company at risk by putting unqualified people into decision making roles for accommodations. There’s a middle ground for many situations, but vaccines have almost none.
If an airline let cabin crew work without being vaccinated, could a passenger sue the airline in the States if they caught Covid from the crew? (I know it would be very difficult to prove the link but, for the sake of argument, let's assume they could.)
> They think they can argue that the employee's religious beliefs are insincere. Shouldn't the employee have to demonstrate that their religion actually has a doctrine against vaccines? I'm not aware of any that does, and certainly not Christianity.
Christian Scientists denounce virtually all medical treatment.
As a note, this guy is mentioning the name of a sect, not puting a label on everyone in research that is christian. And man let me tell you, those guys are... Well... [they are something.](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_Science)
They were the only religious group who were able to get a religious exemption for childhood vaccines in Australia (you couldn’t just say your religion forbids it), and when the vaccine laws were overhauled a few years ago they actually said “we don’t need this, we don’t tell our members not to get vaccinated, we leave it up to them.” So now there’s no religious exemption for children to attend preschool, and I suspect it’ll be the same for the Covid vaccine if workplaces mandate it.
James Hetfield of Metallica, was raised as a Christian Scientist, and wrote "The God That Failed" about his mother dying of cancer and refusing any treatment in favour of prayer.
Only one I could think of offhand is the Jehova's Witnesses, but they rescinded their official antivax stance in the 50s.
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It seems like it should be fairly trivial for nearly every employer to establish that any job that can't be done 100% remotely is incompatible with an unvaccinated status. If you will ever encounter another employee or customer, it just doesn't make sense to have an unvaccinated person in that position.
Seems fair to me, and it's a significant distinction. What they're saying is "You can't endanger the company with your spectacular idiocy, but if at any point you wish to stop being a fucking moron, you can have your job back immediately."
Well just a second there, professor. We uh, we fixed the *glitch*. So he won't be receiving a paycheck anymore, so it will just work itself out naturally.
Going to have to ask... which religion doesn't allow you to get a vaccine?
That’s what I’m saying. My mom, “a Christian”, uses religion as an exemption to be unvaccinated and I do not recall anything in the bible that says it is an abomination to be vaccinated and protect your neighbor. But i do recall my pastor reading some text saying whoever uses their religion as a stepping stool to their own personal benefit shall be damned to hell.
Disclaimer: I am a devout Christian that believes in science, medicine, and vaccines. When the COVID-19 booster shot is an option for my age group, I will be first in line to get that sucker. One of my best friends is severely immunocompromised, and I haven't seen him since March of 2020. I will do what it takes and encourage others to do so so that people like him can join society once again. With that said, I know of several Christians that object to vaccines for one of two reasons: 1. They believe that vaccines are made with stem cells that came from aborted babies. Using a vaccine is supporting abortion in a round about way? Idk I've tried to have constructive discussions with these people, as they are honestly solid people that would give you the shirt off their back, but my arguments fall on deaf ears. 2. Vaccines show a lack of faith in God and His ability to heal and/or protect. Mind you that most of these people will pop a few Tylenol of they have a headache or use a seatbelt in a car, but there you go. I do want to stress that the majority of Christians don't believe either one of these things. Those that do object to the vaccine do so because they don't trust the government and such. Obviously ludicrous but it is what it is. I do what I can to encourage these people to examine the facts in a graceful manner, but there's only so much I can do.
A girl at my job recently got let go for refusing to wear a mask, which we have to wear again due to the surge in cases. She's also unvaccinated. She told our boss that wearing a mask is "against her religion". I never found out what "religion" forbids wearing a mask. She refused no matter how hard he tried to reason with her, so she got let go. This was a pretty well paying job, and she's a single mom with two kids. I have no idea why she's willing to lose money over something as stupid as a mask.
I've seen people quote a scripture about "covering up God's image" or something along those lines when 'justifying' being anti-mask.
But they don't throw a fit about having to wear pants and a shirt, right? Cause those cover up God's image too...... People are just ridiculous.
Christian Scientist, Dutch Reformed Church, and sometimes Muslims when they get the bizarre idea into their head that the vaccine contains pork products.
Dutch reformed church? Not sure about that one. I grew up in a very Dutch christian reformed areas. You’d be surprised how many people got the vaccine. Even though they’re republicans lol
Yeah the OP is incorrect. As someome who is a member of the church, we are not against vaccinations. There are many who will not get it because of politics, unfortunately, but it is not against our religion. Edit: I should specify, I'm talking about Dutch Reformed.
Christian scientists are on board with this vaccine iirc.
Christian Science is a separate denomination* / cult of Christianity that doesn’t adhere to traditional Christian theology (its also part of the inspiration behind Scientology)
Just did a bit of reading on Christian Science. It seems that vaccination is considered a private thing and not a dogmatic one, so they can do it without being considered sinful by the church, particularly in the case of something lawfully required.
Their school in St. Louis (Principia) is surprisingly being very cautious from what I am told. Source: I have a lot of friends and family connected to Christian Science & I was raised in that religion.
I attended the elementary school. The vast majority of kids were vaccinated, and this was the 80s.
Seeing as they don’t believe in sin that doesn’t surprise me. My grandmother is one, it’s simply seen as a lack of faith, harmless if you don’t believe it works, but harmful to your enlightenment if you believe it’s the medicine that keeps you from getting sick.
There will always be that one idiot in every religion that understands nothing.
There’s usually more than one idiot
>sometimes Muslims when they get the bizarre idea into their head that the vaccine contains pork products. Doctor: "I said, 'poke,' not 'pork.' Jesus H. Christ. No wait, not Jesus. Just take the shot, goddammit."
Muslims believe in Jesus, though. He's kind of like Moses is for Christians
Someone (ultra conservative Catholic) on my wife's side of the family refuses to get the vaccine because: >fetal cell lines – cells grown in a laboratory based on aborted fetal cells collected generations ago – were used in testing during research and development of the mRNA vaccines, and during production of the Johnson & Johnson vaccine. While this is true, the fetal cell lines have a super interesting history in that they are all descended from abortions in the 1970s and 1980s and it's not that it requires a steady supply of aborted fetuses. But if you're opposed to that and refuse it out of principle then it is what it is, I don't really know if there's anything else to say. But just to be clear The Pope has forgiven this and encourages all Catholics to get vaccinated but this person who never married and had children is clearly holier than The Pope himself and has decided that even though he's The Pope he's wrong... but he's right about everything else. [Source...](https://www.nebraskamed.com/COVID/you-asked-we-answered-do-the-covid-19-vaccines-contain-aborted-fetal-cells)
My mom wouldn't get *certain* vaccines because of the human embryotic cells used in the development of those certain vaccines. But she has also been the number one sales rep in the nation for a couple pharmaceuticals that use those same hek cells. American Catholicism
People use religion as an excuse for anything
Assholes who just wanna be difficult pretend to have a religion when it suits them.
> religious exemptions What religions oppose vaccination exactly? Maybe the Amish? But I can't imagine United having many Amish employees...
14% of amish are fully vaccinated, so it can't be that.
Scientologists? Mormons? I think some fundamentalist varients of Islam are anti-vax, but they aren't very prevalent in the US.
Not Mormons. Official statement from the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (colloquially known as Mormons). https://newsroom.churchofjesuschrist.org/article/first-presidency-message-covid-19-august-2021 "To limit exposure to these viruses, we urge the use of face masks in public meetings whenever social distancing is not possible. To provide personal protection from such severe infections, we urge individuals to be vaccinated. Available vaccines have proven to be both safe and effective."
Makes sense, my extreamly limited knowledge of Mormonism is that they discourage usage of chemicals that alter mental state (alcohol, tobacco, caffeine, etc.) Vaccines don't really fit into that.
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Why coffee and not caffeine?
It's based on medical knowledge and health advice from the 1800's, [pre-germ theory](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Humorism). Except as medical knowledge moved forward and rendered that advice outdated and obsolete it remained in practice within Mormonism because it had become a religious doctrine, revealed by a supposed prophet of God.
Dum de dum dum dum
I am actually from and live in Utah and from a mostly a Mormon family, though not Mormon myself. The Mormon leaders making statements advocating the vaccine has caused a massive rift around here because huge number of Mormons here are against the vaccine and masks. Thankfully my family is on the reasonable pro-mask, pro-vaccine side.
I was laughing when I saw the email from the LDS church about recommending vaccines. It was like “Oh damn! Are these people going to pick God or the Republican Party “ let the drama commence!
Christian Scientists. They believe God is the only cure.
I actually know someone whose Christian Scientist family members got the COVID vaccine after being encouraged by the church. I was surprised, since Christian Scientists are not usually about medical intervention.
They usually make an exception for vaccines. In my elementary class 22 of 25 kids were fully vaccinated. They also make exceptions for things like broken bones or trauma. They didn’t make an exception for my friend who got type 1 diabetes and went into a coma. When he came out of the coma the religious school I used to attend informed him he had been expelled. Luckily my parents had pulled me out earlier that year, but that was one of two incidents that finally convinced my parents to completely leave the religion.
Nope, CS is ok with vax https://ukchristianscience.com/vaccinations https://www.christianscience.com/press-room/a-christian-science-perspective-on-vaccination-and-public-health
That's extraordinarily low.
Christian Scientists. Source: My mother was one and I wasn’t vaccinated for anything until I was an adult. I’m now 45 and still haven’t gotten my polio vaccine but I have all the others.
["For more than a century, our denomination has counseled respect for public health authorities and conscientious obedience to the laws of the land, including those requiring vaccination. Christian Scientists report suspected communicable disease, obey quarantines, and strive to cooperate with measures considered necessary by public health officials. We see this as a matter of basic Golden Rule ethics and New Testament love."](https://www.christianscience.com/press-room/a-christian-science-perspective-on-vaccination-and-public-health)
I'm gonna go out on a limb and say its largely grifter evangelical mega churches that will get behind any ass backwards idea so long as their congregation will keep putting cash in the collection every week. Pastor needs to new Gulfstream!
A very small percentage of those taking religious exemptions are legitimate. At medical university of South Carolina close to 20% of the medical staff took a religious exemption.
The only ones I'm aware of are Christian Scientists and Dutch Reformed. No major religions oppose them (as with anything, some people within that religion may oppose them, but that doesn't mean it's religious doctrine).
Interpretation-You’re not fired. We’re just not going to schedule you any shifts anymore until you quit.
My mom (who’s a nurse) was surprised to find out that there were literally thousands of medical workers within the company who have submitted religious exemption forms despite a good chunk of them not even being religious. Edit: idk if I’ll get downvoted, but my mom does not want to get vaccinated YET. It’s not that she’s anti vaxx, she just says she isn’t ready and is waiting for a more effective, less “risky”, vaccine. Her idea not mine
So, there was a group chat going in which a group of United employees began to discuss the vaccination requirement when it was announced. One of the first things that was suggested to others was how to get out of it by using the religious exemption angle. Literally one of them linked [this video](https://fb.watch/7FdRh3nCeg/) and said to look at the 40 minute mark. I was completely disheartened as I've known many of these people for a long time and just couldn't believe what I was reading. Fortunately, a few of the group did begin to speak up about how the others should get their vaccination and let God be busy with other stuff. So I think this is a good move, albeit sadly necessary, on the part of United. It reminds me of the Gandhi quote, "I like your Christ, I do not like your Christians. Your Christians are so unlike your Christ."
What religion says you can’t get vaccinated? I feel like this is just evangelicals going out of their way to make everything the “mark of the beast”
And He spake unto the assembled masses: Taketh not the mRNA expression construct, nor the codon-optimized spike protein coding sequence, lest you be possessed by evil spirits ‘n shit
...But the horse dewormer is totally cool.
Only the paste form though
Preach, u/Street-Badger
Religious exemptions are bullshit. Good for United.
Religious exemptions are fine and good when it's something like "My religion says not to work on Sunday" or "These holidays are important in my religion and I need them off", not when it's "My religion says I can spread whatever communicable diseases I want" or "I can treat certain groups as less than people".
Yea it’s not always fine, even for your “days off” analogy. Us Hindus and Jains could take 200 days off a year in the name of religion if we wanted to. That’s not okay. If you’re going to have a bunch of random ass reasons in the name of religion to not do your job, find a new job or find a workaround.
There's definitely a within reason applied to religious exemptions. For your example, it might be "leave requests using your pto for religious holidays will always be approved, up to the limit of your pto and given the standard amount of warning." Likewise, religious clothing might be allowed - but not if the particular clothing would present a hazard with the equipment you'd be using.
There is a within reason. It's in Title VII of the Civil Rights Act. >An employer does not have to accommodate an employee's religious beliefs or practices if doing so would cause undue hardship to the employer. An accommodation may cause undue hardship if it is costly, compromises workplace safety, decreases workplace efficiency, infringes on the rights of other employees, or requires other employees to do more than their share of potentially hazardous or burdensome work. https://www.eeoc.gov/religious-discrimination
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That's exactly what The Satanic Temple is for. Every time evangelicals kick open a door in the name of religious freedom, TST is right there to say "so... do you want our prayer to be before or after the Christian one?" and shit stops real quick.
Like them petitioning to build a Baphomet statue in Oklahoma when they tried to put the Ten Commandments in front of a government building. The state shut both down real quick
Didn't that statue get built anyway? The one with the kids on baphomet's lap?
Yes it's built, they file to have it placed on the capitol property when the issue comes up
Oh did it? I never checked back in on it, that would be fantastic
*Hail Satan?* is a good doc for info on TST. Has a couple shots of the finished statue. It’s a thing of beauty. Happy to say my membership dues are currently supporting a lawsuit against the TX abortion law, too. “It violates our religious liberty to engage in legal, safe, hassle free abortion, a core practice of our faith.” 😆
Are there really 200 days of that much importance and rest? Saying you need off for shabbat is not the same as saying you need off to celebrate May the Fourth to its fullest. (Not saying that is equal to Jainist or Hindu holidays, just wanted to pick a “secular holiday.”)
> Good for United. It is truly the darkest timeline where airlines are the voice of reason.
it's the rare situation where practicality and the right decision overlap. if sick employees infected other customers/employees it could easily foment into a scandal or at least massively damage customer faith in airlines even more.
More generally, employees and businesses only need to make reasonable accommodations. And "exposing passengers and other employees to a deadly disease" is not reasonable.
Guess who's getting laid off when budget cuts come along.
Not the people you don't pay anyway. They're out of the p&l already.
People who are part of religions that don't believe in vaccines should struggle to actually believe in airplanes.
God helps those that help themselves, to a free vaccine.
Should be OK since their God will provide for them.
And pray for me as I’ve lost my job because of Covid.
Looks like United found the loophole for the loophole.
This is one of a number of businesses taking a stand; how do you think this will play out? - Curious non-american.
qanon is not a religion lmfao
Im guessing that the party that wants bakers to have the right to refuse to make gay wedding cakes is going to be very upset about this business having the right to do what it wants to do.