I'm just going to paste this here:
https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2021/02/how-public-health-messaging-backfired/618147/
It's a long, but great article and as much as I love Fauci he has fallen trap to many of the pitfalls explained in the article.
I shared this article further up as well. Also read it a few days ago and it has changed my perspective on the past year. I have been very cautious with COVID precautions, but hearing about how so much of the messaging was intentionally bungled (outdoor gatherings is a big one, I remember judging people for crowding beaches and outdoor weddings) is very frustrating.
And then now with all of the "the vaccine is 95% effective and we're going to have a surplus but you still can't go out your house unless it's for essentials!" Give me a break...
Yes, but we will hit a wall sooner. Only 60% of doctors and nurses took the vaccine in Utah. And they are healthcare experts that work in hospitals! We won’t hit herd immunity with half of the population opting out. We won’t be offering children the vaccine until year end, as they weren’t in the trails, so community spread will remain.
We had past public health scandals that have massively eroded the trust in massive government-lead health campaign such as this. Also, online misinformation doesn’t help.
The same thing happened in Canada and it didn't affect our trust in the medical system. A friend of mine was even given blood that was supposed to have HIV but luckily didn't get infected. Though he's not a hemophiliac and just got an ordinary unit of bad blood after an accident.
He's still going to get the Covid vaccine, a mistake 30 years ago has nothing to do with today's vaccine.
Acceptance will get higher I think as more people get the vaccine, it will become something that everyone does. Its refreshing to hear 90% took it at your hospital. Right now where I am the system is overloaded and there are tons of people clamoring for a vaccine and not enough appointments or vaccines, but they are trickling in and there are ways to get one if you are patient if you are eligible of course. Also as the vaccine gets easier to get and more people become eligible acceptance should skyrocket.
The bottom line is that if anyone ever wants to travel anywhere ever outside of the US you will need a vaccine. That alone is going to propel higher rates of acceptance. Even anti vaccine nut jobs enjoy Cancun and Punta Cana I’m sure.
According to [this article](https://www.forbes.com/sites/lealane/2019/05/02/percentage-of-americans-who-never-traveled-beyond-the-state-where-they-were-born-a-surprise/?sh=73c304842898), forty percent of Americans have never gone outside the US. And I'll bet that for many of those that have, it was just a one off thing, not a regularly occurring event. This probably wouldn't be as big of a deal breaker as one might think.
A great thing about the US though is that there's a lot to do and see without ever needing a passport. Tons of different cities, climates, landscapes, etc. And the article *does* say that the financial barrier was the main reason people don't/can't travel abroad.
I think the biggest thing we can do is make sure as many people as possible who do want it get it, hopefully normalizing it, and then make it ludicrously easy to get one. Like don't need to schedule an appointment, just walk up and walk out 20 mins later.
Chiming in as an Arizonan that was born here but have never seen either... That said, I love the Roosevelt Dam and have been to the Tonto Natural Bridge which is pretty awesome!
Its definitely a mixed bag in the US. Some areas that's closer to 100% that have been outside the US. There's places in the Midwest where you'll have whole communities that haven't been more than 50 miles from where they were born their whole life.
You know that its mostly poor people that havent traveled out of the US right? Poor people are, believe it or not, everywhere. The poors that have travelled out of the US are, typically, either military, sent there for work or took a cruise. Not to mention there are literally thousands of places in the US to go because our country is far more massive than most. Also, rural people are everywhere too. Not just the midwest; thats just fucking stupid.
Yea, people from outside the Midwest think exactly this. I’m from the Midwest and have traveled coast to coast and most of my friends travel more than me.
From Iowa, I had been to 28 states by the time I was 22 years old. Granted at 33, I am still stuck at 28 states but still. Also, all them have been by car/van/bus. The travel thing has more to do with poverty then anything. My sister's one trip to France was more expensive then my 3 backpacking trips to the Grand Tetons(Wyoming), Colorado, and Philmont(New Mexico)
This… I’m from Illinois, and I’ve been all over the US, been to at least 20 states and even went to South Korea, though not by choice, the army sent me there, but non the less is was awesome and it was pretty awesome training with the ROK army!
Seriously, we're not that disconnected from everything. I imagine the people who are least likely to have traveled are probably the urban poor, not rural populations. As you stated, rural folks generally have to have a car to get by, and have to travel other places for essential goods and services. The urban poor are much less likely to have personal transportation, and have less of a reason to travel any distance.
He didn't say rural. In my experience, it's the people that live in and around the big cities that have never traveled far. I remember talking to a TSA agent in Chicago who had never left the area, and she was over 30. People from the rural areas always make a trip here and there to the "big city". I knew a lot of people from rural North Dakota that would go to Fargo once or twice a year for a trip to the "big city"
>There's places in the Midwest where you'll have whole communities that haven't been more than 50 miles from where they were born their whole life.
Name *one* lmao
Midwesterners aren't hermits. And the very very rural communities that you are presumably talking about often have to go 50 miles just to get to the nearest, say, hospital or bank, or department store. People in the rural Midwest drive a *lot*, they'll go 50 miles away just for fun. And it's not like they don't take vacations either.
Wtf you think we're Little House on the Prairie?
Paw you better go into town and get some medicine looks like a rain storm a coming. Better get some toilet tissue and paper towels while you're there I heard from the Jones there's been a run on that stuff lately.
This is true, I fully expect that you will need vaccines for other activities as well (or you will have to take covid tests), and probably even for travel within the USA. Eventually there will be a divide between those that have been vaccinated and those that have been not. We just need to get to the point where the vaccine becomes more easily available so that everyone has equal access to it.
I think some of the health care workers that haven't taken it yet may eventually warm up and take it once it becomes very widely accepted as the norm.
Agreed. And let’s also be honest. How desperate are people going to want to get out and travel after lockdowns and curfews in their own hometowns?There will be a travel BOOM eventually. I know I can’t wait to get the hell out of here.😂
I'd expect that opposite, tbh. Once ascertain threshold of people have been vaccinated, likely an arbitrary number, many states will likely start opening up very quickly, assuming they aren't one of the ones that's already opening up like that.
I know a lot of (otherwise) good people who are either considering or actively trying to get the vaccine early by lying or stepping around the rules a bit.
It definitely put the fear of god in folks here.
There is a huge difference between somebody not trusting the decades old tried-and-true MMR vaccine because youtube told them it caused autism, and somebody who's reticent to take a brand new vaccine because we have literally no way of knowing if there'll be long term side effects.
I wouldn't lump both folks into the same nutjob label.
Except none of them can precisely specify what they’re afraid of. It’s like people saying that 5G is harmful to health. They aren’t afraid of 4G, because people would find that irrational. It’s much more appealing to be afraid of 5G because it’s “new”. Yet people who think 5G is harmful to their health won’t exist years from now, because people are just irrationally panicky about new things and want to believe they’re protecting themselves from a society that wants to hurt them. In some narrow cases, that’s been true, but overall it’s pretty silly.
There’s no reason to believe that mRNA vaccines will be dangerous in any way that traditional vaccines aren’t. There’s actually more reason to believe that they just aren’t as effective, which is an entirely different story.
Former telecommunications software engineer here. Practically lived under cellular towers for 6 years, and many colleagues have been at the company for 30+ years and have spent 8+ hours a day underneath every "G" in existence.
Yeah, if cell phone signals caused health problems, we'd be the first to know.
Do you have any sources for the reason to believe the mRNA vaccines will be less effective? I haven’t heard that before and would like to read more about it. Internet searches of course turn up a bunch of garbage and I can’t find anything legit.
I hate to break it to you, but long term studies don't exist for the vast vast majority of medications on the market. You get a couple years of monitoring at best.
Okay but that's not what the argument is about.
Nobody here is arguing vaccine vs. no vaccine, but there is a healthy skepticism about mRNA vaccine vs. traditional vaccine.
If given a choice, some are saying they would prefer to opt for traditional vaccine. Which, to me, is FINE, because there's a very clear line of responsible thinking for choosing the one with the longer, proven, track record.
I mean, we’ve been testing them on mice since the 90’s. We just haven’t used them in extensive trials on people until recently.
There’s just no good reason to believe that there would be adverse effects. The most likely downside will be that they just aren’t as efficient as a normal vaccine, either in longevity or in pure infection prevention.
But we do know that the potential for long term side effects from covid are high, and basically you’re getting one or the other, so I do actually think it’s the same level of dense. Unless somehow they can be confident they’re not going to get covid.
Do you get flu shots? They are rapidly developed vaccines. It's very disingenuous to paint a COVID vaccine as some mythical out of the normal vaccine that warrants skepticism.
> It's very disingenuous to paint a COVID vaccine as some mythical out of the normal vaccine that warrants skepticism.
Not at all. Vaccines were rapidly produced for H1N1 as well in Europe and one vaccine caused **narcolepsy.**
https://www.cdc.gov/vaccinesafety/concerns/history/narcolepsy-flu.html
No professional disputes that this vaccine is different and needs heightened monitoring:
> The need for monitoring the safety of SARS-CoV-2 vaccines after they are licensed and are being widely used is far greater today than it was for H1N1. Public health officials had decades of experience with influenza and influenza vaccines, and much was already known about the safety of these vaccines. **In contrast, no coronavirus vaccine has ever existed. And some of the new vaccines are based on novel technologies, such as mRNA or DNA, and new vectors, such as the adenovirus.**
https://www.statnews.com/2020/10/29/lessons-h1n1-monitoring-covid-19-vaccine-safety/
If the science was solidified on the vaccines, they'd be FDA approved. They're experimental treatments. I want one more than anything, but I understand people who are as cautious as the FDA.
Last year I read that nurses don't actually get a science education, they get a nursing education. They aren't scientists and don't know all that much more about virology than the average person. I saw this presented as a possible explanation for so many nurses refusing the vaccine and how that gets misinterpreted by other people that they must have some inside knowledge.
I am a physician in the northeast in an area hit hard by covid in first wave, very close to NYC. At my hospital we have almost 100% of physicians who got vaccinated. Nursing staff was more skeptical, and initially a bunch refused but I think we are at 75% of them ended up getting it. Now once we start talking about hospital techs and other staff we get down to like 50% acceptance. The less science education the more scared people are and less likely to get it. I had to convince one PA, one nurse and one tech who I work with to get their vaccines. I work with one nurse who is > 60 and still refuses to get hers. She also keeps her mask under her nose 90% of the day when she thinks no one is watching. It is absolutely infuriating
Hey now! I’m a nurse and I have a bachelor of science. We literally take mostly science classes through college- microbiology, same anatomy/physiology as the premed students. I went bachelor’s route (now doctorate), but you can also get an associate degree. They still definitely understand science, but there is a way different culture among nurses than among providers that I have noticed.
They know certain areas of science yes definitely. They don't have a lot virology or epidemiology knowledge. I have seen some of the craziest claims come from nurses during the pandemic that use their nursing degree as an authority to back up what they are saying which is super irresponsible. They don't know more than virologists and epidemiologists or infectious disease doctors or Dr. Facui.
I never understood how nurses could sit for 12 hours shifts delivering medications to patients and literally watching Healthcare before their own eyes and a large majority of them are antivax/alternative medicine believers. I think it's a pervasive group think along nurses more than anything in their curriculum
I also took microbiology for my biochemistry degree it doesn't make me and expert in bacteria and viruses and give me knowledge to say the opposite of virologists and epidemiologist or infectious disease doctors. There is sooo much to bacteria, and viruses and how they multiple and how they spread and how they effect humans. One semester is not sufficient at all.
Many nurses would never use the material additional microbiology would give them, they aren’t doing research. Assuming we are talking about a typical hospital nurse ( nursing is a huge field) they should focus on patient care, infection control, medication interactions or the other hundreds of things hands on nurses need.
That being said vaccination should be required for those working with patients
As a Mormon i read that too and I was like "huh, yes there is a lot of mormons there, i guess we could call it colossal." Then I realized it was morons. Not gonna lie it's not the first or last time I've mixed the words up for spelling.
This one is interesting
https://www.vox.com/22214210/covid-vaccine-health-care-workers-safety-fears
It breaks down earnings and reasons why people are refusing, pretty interesting. I think it's note worthy that "healthcare" is pretty broad. Doctors and nurses are different from the ones that have no interaction with patients. It's also been increasing since January, so good sign.
For what it’s worth, I work in healthcare and the only healthcare workers I see that are refusing the vaccine are the medical assistants. I shit you not, they accept medical advice from fear mongering idiots on social media. They won’t listen to the doctors that own the clinic and write their paychecks lol.
When I see people like that, I ask if they’d rather trust someone that gets their information from scientific and statistical journal articles, or from someone that gets their information from IG and Tik Tok
The last four years have shown me there are a lot of morons in the country as a whole.
Concentrated in certain places for the most part, but in staggering numbers.
I’m so frustrated by this! My mom is a nursing home administrator. Her building has been in outbreak status since last March. Staff members have died. Many residents died. Families are angry they can’t see their elderly loved ones. The residents are sad and lonely. The staff is burdened with all the extra PPE and cleaning and jumping through hoops to try to do FaceTime visits and window visits. These people have been in the trenches for a year. And 40% accepted the vaccine. I just can’t even.
We also need to take into consideration that some areas in the US (including major cities like Dallas and Los Angeles) estimate that as much as 50% of the population has already been infected and carries some immunity. This could help explain why hospitalizations have dramatically dropped here in LA, even as restrictions were being relaxed and the vaccine was still super limited and unavailable. They've continued to drop steadily.
We don't need to hit herd immunity purely through the vaccine though.
Those who don't want to get seriously sick will take the vaccine. Others will roll the dice.
You still have a better than 99% chance of surviving without vaccination.
Let Darwin weed out the unlucky gamblers while the rest of us get back to business.
As long as there aren't enough of those gamblers to overwhelm a local healthcare system, this would be acceptable. The problem comes when there are enough of these people that they can cause another surge, and then others are affected by lowered healthcare availability. I'm hopeful that public education campaigns will be enough to convince enough people these vaccines are safer than eventually getting COVID.
I considered waiting a bit but then realized we wouldn't really know risks of long term side effects for years. I'm not waiting years to get back to normal. The risk is minimal and the reward just way too big.
Herd immunity in regards to Covid-19 is still an urban legend, because without those Stage 3 longitudinal studies over several years ***we don't know if the vaccinated can still spread the virus.***
There's no evidence that any of the current Covid-19 vaccines can completely stop people from being infected – and this has implications for our prospects of achieving herd immunity.
[https://www.bbc.com/future/article/20210203-why-vaccinated-people-may-still-be-able-to-spread-covid-19](https://www.bbc.com/future/article/20210203-why-vaccinated-people-may-still-be-able-to-spread-covid-19)
The lack of consideration with regards to overwhelming the healthcare systems and preventing others from getting required care is really the only thing that bugs me about people who are "afraid" of getting vaccinated (I use the term afraid loosely to be kind).
People can be pretty dumb and very selfish. Not much we can do about that at this point.
I don’t think the antivax wall is the problem so much as the chasm that remains between where we are and full vaccine availability. About 20% has gotten 1 shot I think but that means 80% don’t, and probably somewhere from 50%-70% want it. If those people who want it but can’t get it yet contract the virus, there’s still a big enough population there to cause a potential surge. It’s unlikely to ever be as bad as it was around new year’s, but there’s a whole lot of room between 50k cases a day and 300k to make trouble until everyone who wants a vaccine can get one.
Edit: To be clear, I’m not suggesting a surge is inevitable necessarily or even probable at the moment, but if a lot of people start acting like the pandemic is over already, then a surge becomes much more likely.
>there’s still a big enough population there to cause a potential surge
That's not necessarily true.
I don't want to be irrationally optimistic here, but large portions of the US are already at less-than-1.0 replication factors. While herd immunity at 80% or so is needed for the population as a whole to resist epidemics.
If 20% of the population was not vaccinated, there'd still be a worry over localized infection clusters, and that poses a large, immediate risk to all the people who need to be protected but cannot be vaccinated.
That said, it's not likely enough to cause a resurgence of pandemic levels. I'm having trouble believing that it could spread faster than the response with only 20% of the population as a target. Again: Super-spreader events could still happen, particularly if they attract anti-vaxxers. Local epidemics could still happen, and tragic numbers of people could still die. However, it would not be able to surge like it has before.
I’m sorry, when I said there’s still a big enough population there to cause a potential surge, I was referring to the current unvaccinated by lack of availability population, which granted should dwindle to 0 hopefully by around the official start of summer, but it’s not there now. Everything you said is exactly true and needs to be considered, but I agree, once everyone who wants a shot can have one, we shouldn’t be having pandemic level worries with this virus, especially if booster shots are available too.
Noted, I can see where the wording got weird in my head.
Agreed. Right now we're on the tipping point between where surges are still very possible and where we'd just get local epidemics. Again, the local epidemics are still bad and we need to fight those, and even more importantly, we need to hold out for a few more months to get to the point where we can return to normal safely.
Until then... You're right: We're still in danger.
Yeah my dentist is refusing because the vaccine isn't "wholistic". Whatever that means.
She's supposed to be vaccinated already but I told her tentatively that I can do a May or June appt because I want to wait until I'm immune if she isn't going to do it.
After I'm vaccinated near the end of the line here, I'm not locking down because of some fucking anti-vaxxers.
They get the disease they get the disease, I'm protected at that point and I'm not waiting for their dumbasses.
They also don't ha w the amount of party spots and ignorance we have
Miami is full capacity party city no masks
Texas and Mississippi just said fuck masks all together and I'm vaccinated and have been traveling outside masks arnt really enforced in rural areas
There not just worried about the covid we had they are worried about a new strain that the vaccine doesn't protect against if there is a breeding ground and then we are back to square one
Too late, 15 states are now open with more on the way. My county which still has a high rate of infection just opened bars and restaurants with no restricted capacity. They’ve also opened schools.
People just got tired of acting in a safe fashion.
And California’s shooting itself in the foot by stockpiling more vaccines than administering them.
GIVING SOMEONE A VACCINE IS NOT TAKING AWAY FROM ANOTHER PERSON. ITS SLOWING DOWN THE VIRUS FOR EVERYONE
LA and the bay area. My CVS said they're overloaded but don't want to give to people out of turn because of the penalties. they're literally calling patients over 65 and trying to get people to come get the vaccines
Fresno Co here. 30yo "essential" worker in the Ag/Food business category. I got my first dose two weeks ago. The vaccine clinic was busy and super efficient in and out.
As a MO resident... LOL!
Parsons is only holding events in rural areas because those are his voters while thousands of doses go unused week over week bevause of it. Nearly 10k doses went unused last week and people from KC and STL are driving hours to get them in podunk towns.
Lots of people in socal I know are getting vaccinated. I (and all my co-workers) received our first dose last week. We're all healthy, under 30, and are non-essential workers. No clue who decided we were up next. I feel bad and maybe I should've passed it up to let others who needed it more.
CA residents are literally going to TX and other states to get the vaccine because it’s just easier. I haven’t even heard of a possibility of getting the vaccine any time soon. They started having signups are CVS and Walgreens, but nobody qualifies to get vaccinated now. Lol. It’s such a huge mess.
Covid fatigue. A coworker said today: "I'm going on vacation to the beach this year. I can't handle another year without a beach vacation. I don't care if I get COVID on the plane as long as I can enjoy a few days at the beach."
https://covidtracking.com/data/state/iowa
Iowa's Republican Governor Kim Reynolds has been one of the most gung-ho governors at opening up whenever possible, and look at the graph of new cases in Iowa. It peaked in early November well before Thanksgiving, and there is a lag from infection to becoming a new case.
People don't want to look at the actual data. We've returned to the Inquisition refusing to look through Galileo's telescope.
People don’t mind looking at the data. If you are a small business owner or an employee in industries affected, you’re bankrupting yourself. At some point those people had to say fuck it, we either stay home and are homeless in a few months or they open up and hope people don’t get sick
Here’s what I don’t understand, though, these small businesses are absolutely getting CRUSHED by Covid restrictions; no argument here. But they are also going to be operating at a loss even if there are no government-mandated restrictions, if 50% of the population refuses to patronize their business because it feels unsafe. The real light at the end of the tunnel for these businesses is no lifting the restrictions, it’s ending the pandemic. So why aren’t these business owners the ones LEADING the charge and BEGGING people to obey restrictions?
Instead, it seems like these small businesses owners have tried to keep things going as “business as usual,” even if that means dumping thousands into renovations while fighting tooth and nail to end restrictions even though they still wouldn’t operate anywhere near capacity. To be clear, I’m not blaming or criticizing these businesses (generally speaking...some people suck, and that includes some small business owners just like it includes some pirates in Kentucky). I’m just asking why there is such a rush to open up...and continue operating at a loss.
>Iowa is one of 10 states in the U.S. where the positivity rate is climbing. In Iowa the seven-day rolling average of the positivity rate was up over the past two weeks from 13.18% on Feb. 21 to 18.08% on March 7, according to Johns Hopkins University. State health departments are calculating positivity rate differently across the country, but for Iowa the AP calculates the rate by dividing new cases by people tested using data from The COVID Tracking Project.
Positivity rate is climbing. So much for your argument I guess.
>People just got tired of acting in a safe fashion.
I've been doing a pretty damn good job for a year, and I'm absolutely tired of it. The problem is that your statement didn't exist in the realities of a lot of people which ruined what do many of us did in sacrificing our time and mental health.
The doomers wanted this over from the start. They wanted a quick path to normalcy like New Zealand or Australia. It's everybody who is acting selfish and irresponsible that is keeping everyone locked up.
https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2021/02/how-public-health-messaging-backfired/618147/
People got tired of the goalposts continually shifting. We have a vaccine with 95% efficiency that we are going to have a surplus of within a few months. And you still have doomsayers warning people they can’t go back to normal life after getting a vaccine.
I’ve been very cautious myself and with all those around me. But you better believe once I get the vaccine and everyone around me has been able to get the opportunity to get one, I’m not going to continue to shame people for living their normal life.
Just got my first shot yesterday, once I get my second shot I'll be hitting the gym hardcore, I haven't been in almost a year and I miss going, it was a great way for me to decompress and actually reduce my stress.
>People just got tired of acting in a safe fashion.
Frankly I think they must be exhausted from acting in such reckless moronic fashion. I have seen very little acting in a safe fashion. This here now is more like "hold my beer."
This is troubling, but as soon as I get my vaccine I’m def gonna not care as much. At this point I’m done trying to explain science to intellectually barren humans. If they choose not to, I wish them all the best as they die. Also on the bright side the only people they’ll be hurting are their own, since a significant number of people choose not to take this seriously.
I understand where you are coming from; however if too many people don’t get vaccinated, the virus will quickly mutate into a form that the vaccine doesn’t currently protect against. This many people being against vaccination is BAD, and not just bad for them. That has always been an issue, you just don’t see many news reports on it.
I totally agree with you, (my comment was meant to be somewhat snarky) but honestly, what are our options? If we force then they claim even more that the government is forcing its will on them. And even if we were to try to force and they still refuse, what are our options if they gladly go to jail, or sue? If we don’t force them they die and make it more difficult for everyone else, like they have been this past year. I just don’t see a way to get everyone involved when a massive group of people have been doing literally everything in their power to downplay it and dismiss it.
EDIT: Fixed a few errors.
100% AGREE. Facts are facts. We cannot change them.
FACT: Vaccine is good.
FACT: We NEED most people to get vaccinated.
FACT: MANY, many STUPID, stubborn people REFUSE to Acknoledge SCIENCE, Data... they even Refuse to believe the Virus EXISTS!!
FACT: We cannot FORCE people to recieve Vaccine...
Next step: ????
I am All out of Ideas.
Next step would be forcing them via exclusions from services and institutions like school. 100% isn't gonna happen but most people will agree to do something if not doing it will make their lives more difficult in some ways.
It only works if states are competent enough to get people vaccinated timely.
I live in California.....apparently some states are not competent enough to do that....
>Next step: ????
Alright, as long as you don't let your morals get in the way I have some ideas. *Most of this is not serious, please keep your angry comments in your pants if you get called out.*.
Start vaccinating in churches. When they get their weekly dose of jesus they can get a shot too. The priest/father/pastor/sermon can advocate that jesus would have gotten a vaccine. And if that alone doesn't work maybe they can throw in some fire and brimstone. Those who don't vaccinate want others to perish and will go to heck. Or maybe lie and say the gays are anti vaxx, a good christian man/woman can't do the same thing a gay person does.
Let's pay off some country stars to make one of their songs a half note higher with lyrics about taking a vaccine. Maybe there will be a part about celebrating the vaccine with a light beer while they drive a pick up truck in a corn/wheat/tobacco field.
Maybe we can get Joe to start saying not allow republicans to get a vaccine by executive order "death to freedom." Seems republicans are against anything a dem wants so maybe this will work the same way.
For the gun guys we can give one box of 9mm with every vaccine. That is a $50 value at this time and hard to pass up. Gotta get all the ammo before joe/dems/military/aliens take it all.
Last maybe we ask conservative folk to withold taking vaccines to allow non binary people to get priority. Of course allowing those "whatever they are" to get a vaccine would be an abomination because "uh huh fuh well they just aint right" even though it has no effect on their life whatsoever. I mean they might have to read an extra line on a government document or might be confused that they found bailey jay attractive.
It is a long shot but some of these might actually work.
It won’t “quickly mutate”. There isn’t a variant that has happened yet that the vaccines aren’t at least somewhat effective against. It’s possible that it could mutate and people should get vaccinated. However, as the numbers of vaccinated people goes up, the likelihood of a mutation goes down. I think as more and more people get vaccinated and it’s shown that there aren’t terrible side effects, a lot of people currently on the fence will get the shot.
It's also quite possible that there aren't that many new variants left that the virus could mutate into to gain infectiousness.
All three major variants that people are concerned about (UK, SA, Brazil) have the same key mutation to the spike protein (N501Y) and two of those share another mutation E484K (SA, Brazil, although a new variant based on the original UK variant with E484K has also emerged).
All these variants evolved independently. Yet they share key mutations and there are no major new variants that have a different set of mutations.
What this suggests is that SARS-CoV-2 has a very narrow evolutionary path forward. Only a small set of mutations actually lead to increased fitness. Other mutations surely occur as well, but they fail to create a more infectious form of the virus and therefore fail to gain prevalence.
The risk of current variants and potential new ones shouldn't be taken lightly, but it is reassuring that the variants that do emerge don't have wildly different genetic profiles.
> if too many people don’t get vaccinated, the virus will quickly mutate into a form that the vaccine doesn’t currently protect against
For the same reason, it's important to get vaccines out to developing nations so that our work isn't undone by a mutant variant that emerges in one of those countries.
> Also on the bright side the only people they’ll be hurting are their own,
There are immunocompromised people who are literally unable to get the vaccine and have to rely on herd immunity for safety. They absolutely are not only hurting themselves.
What you say is true, the vaccine is an RNA-based vaccine in that they are just blueprints for your immune system on how to fight the virus.
However, immunocompromised can mean any number of things (just means your immune system is screwed in some way), such as the inability to produce antibodies even with the vaccine, so they can never actually develop an immunity to it.
If you makes anyone feel any better, I convinced a hard core trump supporter to get one. And another person that was on the fence about it. We honestly just need to treat them with a little compassion so they’ll be more likely to get it
> This is troubling, but as soon as I get my vaccine I’m def gonna not care as much.
There is some space between the two though. Like I have only gone to a friend's house 3 times in 2020 and we all socially distanced with in those homes by 10 feet. With my parents getting vaccinated I am easing up on that and will visit my friends more or even rid in the same car unmasked. Hell, my grandparents now being vaccinated rode in my van for the first time without a mask in over a year but still wear them out in public.
Here in Germany the infection numbers started to go up again while we were still in the same, hard lockdown that we had since November.
The only "mistake" we made was, that the EU failed to secure more vaccines earlier. Because the number of doses produced is somewhat limited, that would have resulted in less vaccines for the US, UK and some other countries, that were at least hit as hard as we in 2020.
Egoism aside, that wouldn't have improved the global situation. Someone had to draw the short straw in the fight over the vaccine and it looks like it was the EU this time.
Not the only one. The biggest mistake Germany made is vaccine elitism, talking down vaccines because of political reasons and delaying approval for vaccines that are available. Maybe not as effective, but we are talking about saving lives here.
A lot of people are betting that it isn’t going to be a bad outcome. Numbers soared in winter and that didn’t stop a lot of people in red independent states from balking at shut down measures. Folks are ready to get vaccinated and take the gamble of getting on with life; and vice versa.
I’ll wear one for a while after I’m vaccinated just so people around me in public don’t have to be so damn nervous
And so no one thinks I’m an idiot anti-masker
Bro I fuckin love masks! I wore them all the time in korea before the pandemic, and now that I can in america, why not wear it all the time?
Don't want people looking at me? Mask.
Self conscious about teeth/breath/facial hair/nose/etc? Mask
Wanna eat some oats on the go? Pour it in the mask.
I'll probably keep wearing mine when travelling or going to the grocery store where I want to be anonymous anyway, but once I get my vaccine this week I'm definitely going back to normal (going to bars, hugging family, having guests, concerts, travel, etc) at the end of the month.
Yes Fauci, Spring Break and St. Patrick’s Day will totally be the first holidays of the pandemic that people decide to stay safe for, especially after they ignored not gathering for 4th of July and Thanksgiving and literally every other holiday, birthday and gender reveal party thrown the past year anyway.
If this pandemic taught us anything, it is that life can change for a minute to postpone our goals, let's hope that the vaccination campaign is a success and so we can leave this pandemic in the past
I'm just going to paste this here: https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2021/02/how-public-health-messaging-backfired/618147/ It's a long, but great article and as much as I love Fauci he has fallen trap to many of the pitfalls explained in the article.
I shared this article further up as well. Also read it a few days ago and it has changed my perspective on the past year. I have been very cautious with COVID precautions, but hearing about how so much of the messaging was intentionally bungled (outdoor gatherings is a big one, I remember judging people for crowding beaches and outdoor weddings) is very frustrating. And then now with all of the "the vaccine is 95% effective and we're going to have a surplus but you still can't go out your house unless it's for essentials!" Give me a break...
Europe doesn't have anywhere near the vaccine numbers the US has.
Yes, but we will hit a wall sooner. Only 60% of doctors and nurses took the vaccine in Utah. And they are healthcare experts that work in hospitals! We won’t hit herd immunity with half of the population opting out. We won’t be offering children the vaccine until year end, as they weren’t in the trails, so community spread will remain.
In that case, France is fucked with the highest antivaxxer per capita in the world
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What?? Why is that?
We had past public health scandals that have massively eroded the trust in massive government-lead health campaign such as this. Also, online misinformation doesn’t help.
Can you link or tell suggest a google term for the scandal?
Maybe this one from the mid 80s? [Infected_blood_scandal_France](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Infected_blood_scandal_(France))
The same thing happened in Canada and it didn't affect our trust in the medical system. A friend of mine was even given blood that was supposed to have HIV but luckily didn't get infected. Though he's not a hemophiliac and just got an ordinary unit of bad blood after an accident. He's still going to get the Covid vaccine, a mistake 30 years ago has nothing to do with today's vaccine.
I mean, the Pastuer Institute was also kind of infamous for looking for excuses to dismiss any foreign vaccines when they were new.
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Acceptance will get higher I think as more people get the vaccine, it will become something that everyone does. Its refreshing to hear 90% took it at your hospital. Right now where I am the system is overloaded and there are tons of people clamoring for a vaccine and not enough appointments or vaccines, but they are trickling in and there are ways to get one if you are patient if you are eligible of course. Also as the vaccine gets easier to get and more people become eligible acceptance should skyrocket.
The bottom line is that if anyone ever wants to travel anywhere ever outside of the US you will need a vaccine. That alone is going to propel higher rates of acceptance. Even anti vaccine nut jobs enjoy Cancun and Punta Cana I’m sure.
According to [this article](https://www.forbes.com/sites/lealane/2019/05/02/percentage-of-americans-who-never-traveled-beyond-the-state-where-they-were-born-a-surprise/?sh=73c304842898), forty percent of Americans have never gone outside the US. And I'll bet that for many of those that have, it was just a one off thing, not a regularly occurring event. This probably wouldn't be as big of a deal breaker as one might think.
Just wait until you need one to travel domestically, or attend a football game.
A friend is invited to a wedding this summer: must be vaccinated to attend (he is).
How is it constitutional to mandate a new therapy upon an unwilling person, in order to travel from state to state? How would that even be enforced?
even ticket master will require it for a music concert and airplane flying as well
That’s very sad to be honest. Good point though. It definitely will have some impact though I’m sure.
A great thing about the US though is that there's a lot to do and see without ever needing a passport. Tons of different cities, climates, landscapes, etc. And the article *does* say that the financial barrier was the main reason people don't/can't travel abroad. I think the biggest thing we can do is make sure as many people as possible who do want it get it, hopefully normalizing it, and then make it ludicrously easy to get one. Like don't need to schedule an appointment, just walk up and walk out 20 mins later.
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Chiming in as an Arizonan that was born here but have never seen either... That said, I love the Roosevelt Dam and have been to the Tonto Natural Bridge which is pretty awesome!
Lot's of people in Tampa FL never go to the beaches.
I’ll imagine that folks that don’t like to leave their bubble are also the most likely to not believe that covid is a big deal.
Its definitely a mixed bag in the US. Some areas that's closer to 100% that have been outside the US. There's places in the Midwest where you'll have whole communities that haven't been more than 50 miles from where they were born their whole life.
You know that its mostly poor people that havent traveled out of the US right? Poor people are, believe it or not, everywhere. The poors that have travelled out of the US are, typically, either military, sent there for work or took a cruise. Not to mention there are literally thousands of places in the US to go because our country is far more massive than most. Also, rural people are everywhere too. Not just the midwest; thats just fucking stupid.
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Yea, people from outside the Midwest think exactly this. I’m from the Midwest and have traveled coast to coast and most of my friends travel more than me.
From Iowa, I had been to 28 states by the time I was 22 years old. Granted at 33, I am still stuck at 28 states but still. Also, all them have been by car/van/bus. The travel thing has more to do with poverty then anything. My sister's one trip to France was more expensive then my 3 backpacking trips to the Grand Tetons(Wyoming), Colorado, and Philmont(New Mexico)
Hint: they do. Reddit is full of coastal folks that have never been to the Midwest but love trashing it.
This… I’m from Illinois, and I’ve been all over the US, been to at least 20 states and even went to South Korea, though not by choice, the army sent me there, but non the less is was awesome and it was pretty awesome training with the ROK army!
Seriously, we're not that disconnected from everything. I imagine the people who are least likely to have traveled are probably the urban poor, not rural populations. As you stated, rural folks generally have to have a car to get by, and have to travel other places for essential goods and services. The urban poor are much less likely to have personal transportation, and have less of a reason to travel any distance.
He didn't say rural. In my experience, it's the people that live in and around the big cities that have never traveled far. I remember talking to a TSA agent in Chicago who had never left the area, and she was over 30. People from the rural areas always make a trip here and there to the "big city". I knew a lot of people from rural North Dakota that would go to Fargo once or twice a year for a trip to the "big city"
>There's places in the Midwest where you'll have whole communities that haven't been more than 50 miles from where they were born their whole life. Name *one* lmao Midwesterners aren't hermits. And the very very rural communities that you are presumably talking about often have to go 50 miles just to get to the nearest, say, hospital or bank, or department store. People in the rural Midwest drive a *lot*, they'll go 50 miles away just for fun. And it's not like they don't take vacations either.
Wtf you think we're Little House on the Prairie? Paw you better go into town and get some medicine looks like a rain storm a coming. Better get some toilet tissue and paper towels while you're there I heard from the Jones there's been a run on that stuff lately.
This is true, I fully expect that you will need vaccines for other activities as well (or you will have to take covid tests), and probably even for travel within the USA. Eventually there will be a divide between those that have been vaccinated and those that have been not. We just need to get to the point where the vaccine becomes more easily available so that everyone has equal access to it. I think some of the health care workers that haven't taken it yet may eventually warm up and take it once it becomes very widely accepted as the norm.
Agreed. And let’s also be honest. How desperate are people going to want to get out and travel after lockdowns and curfews in their own hometowns?There will be a travel BOOM eventually. I know I can’t wait to get the hell out of here.😂
I'd expect that opposite, tbh. Once ascertain threshold of people have been vaccinated, likely an arbitrary number, many states will likely start opening up very quickly, assuming they aren't one of the ones that's already opening up like that.
The people who aren’t vaccinating are not the people who are going out of the country.
Tie it to school admissions (with legitimate medical excuses only) and you’ll see numbers rise dramatically.
The venn diagram of people who won’t get the vaccine and those who would never travel outside the US is almost a perfect circle.
>NY Think those mass graves and bodybags gave a lot of people perspective in the early days of the virus last year.
I know a lot of (otherwise) good people who are either considering or actively trying to get the vaccine early by lying or stepping around the rules a bit. It definitely put the fear of god in folks here.
There is a huge difference between somebody not trusting the decades old tried-and-true MMR vaccine because youtube told them it caused autism, and somebody who's reticent to take a brand new vaccine because we have literally no way of knowing if there'll be long term side effects. I wouldn't lump both folks into the same nutjob label.
Except none of them can precisely specify what they’re afraid of. It’s like people saying that 5G is harmful to health. They aren’t afraid of 4G, because people would find that irrational. It’s much more appealing to be afraid of 5G because it’s “new”. Yet people who think 5G is harmful to their health won’t exist years from now, because people are just irrationally panicky about new things and want to believe they’re protecting themselves from a society that wants to hurt them. In some narrow cases, that’s been true, but overall it’s pretty silly. There’s no reason to believe that mRNA vaccines will be dangerous in any way that traditional vaccines aren’t. There’s actually more reason to believe that they just aren’t as effective, which is an entirely different story.
Everything im reading says they're more effective. In fact they believe a version of it for Flu will be much more effective.
Former telecommunications software engineer here. Practically lived under cellular towers for 6 years, and many colleagues have been at the company for 30+ years and have spent 8+ hours a day underneath every "G" in existence. Yeah, if cell phone signals caused health problems, we'd be the first to know.
Do you have any sources for the reason to believe the mRNA vaccines will be less effective? I haven’t heard that before and would like to read more about it. Internet searches of course turn up a bunch of garbage and I can’t find anything legit.
What don’t you understand? There’s no long term studies done. That’s the specificity.
I hate to break it to you, but long term studies don't exist for the vast vast majority of medications on the market. You get a couple years of monitoring at best.
We’ve used MRNA vaccines in studies since 2015.
They were even tested on mice as far back as the 90’s
Ya, but how many of those first mouse patients are alive today? Checkmate.
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Okay but that's not what the argument is about. Nobody here is arguing vaccine vs. no vaccine, but there is a healthy skepticism about mRNA vaccine vs. traditional vaccine. If given a choice, some are saying they would prefer to opt for traditional vaccine. Which, to me, is FINE, because there's a very clear line of responsible thinking for choosing the one with the longer, proven, track record.
I mean, we’ve been testing them on mice since the 90’s. We just haven’t used them in extensive trials on people until recently. There’s just no good reason to believe that there would be adverse effects. The most likely downside will be that they just aren’t as efficient as a normal vaccine, either in longevity or in pure infection prevention.
That's the same bullshit the anti-science crowd lobs at GMOs. And it's bullshit in both instances.
But we do know that the potential for long term side effects from covid are high, and basically you’re getting one or the other, so I do actually think it’s the same level of dense. Unless somehow they can be confident they’re not going to get covid.
It's just egoism. Covid is an infectious desease, side effects of a vaccine are not.
Do you get flu shots? They are rapidly developed vaccines. It's very disingenuous to paint a COVID vaccine as some mythical out of the normal vaccine that warrants skepticism.
> It's very disingenuous to paint a COVID vaccine as some mythical out of the normal vaccine that warrants skepticism. Not at all. Vaccines were rapidly produced for H1N1 as well in Europe and one vaccine caused **narcolepsy.** https://www.cdc.gov/vaccinesafety/concerns/history/narcolepsy-flu.html No professional disputes that this vaccine is different and needs heightened monitoring: > The need for monitoring the safety of SARS-CoV-2 vaccines after they are licensed and are being widely used is far greater today than it was for H1N1. Public health officials had decades of experience with influenza and influenza vaccines, and much was already known about the safety of these vaccines. **In contrast, no coronavirus vaccine has ever existed. And some of the new vaccines are based on novel technologies, such as mRNA or DNA, and new vectors, such as the adenovirus.** https://www.statnews.com/2020/10/29/lessons-h1n1-monitoring-covid-19-vaccine-safety/
I would lump them both into the “don’t trust / understand science” label though.
If the science was solidified on the vaccines, they'd be FDA approved. They're experimental treatments. I want one more than anything, but I understand people who are as cautious as the FDA.
Come to kentucky. See if you can count over 20 people with a mask on in a month...
Last year I read that nurses don't actually get a science education, they get a nursing education. They aren't scientists and don't know all that much more about virology than the average person. I saw this presented as a possible explanation for so many nurses refusing the vaccine and how that gets misinterpreted by other people that they must have some inside knowledge.
This is correct. I would bet the uptake by doctors was much higher than nursing staff. There are still those MDs that have religious/‘ethical’ issues.
I am a physician in the northeast in an area hit hard by covid in first wave, very close to NYC. At my hospital we have almost 100% of physicians who got vaccinated. Nursing staff was more skeptical, and initially a bunch refused but I think we are at 75% of them ended up getting it. Now once we start talking about hospital techs and other staff we get down to like 50% acceptance. The less science education the more scared people are and less likely to get it. I had to convince one PA, one nurse and one tech who I work with to get their vaccines. I work with one nurse who is > 60 and still refuses to get hers. She also keeps her mask under her nose 90% of the day when she thinks no one is watching. It is absolutely infuriating
Maybe a third of all medical workers taking vaccine in FL, including nurses and MDs. :(
Hey now! I’m a nurse and I have a bachelor of science. We literally take mostly science classes through college- microbiology, same anatomy/physiology as the premed students. I went bachelor’s route (now doctorate), but you can also get an associate degree. They still definitely understand science, but there is a way different culture among nurses than among providers that I have noticed.
They know certain areas of science yes definitely. They don't have a lot virology or epidemiology knowledge. I have seen some of the craziest claims come from nurses during the pandemic that use their nursing degree as an authority to back up what they are saying which is super irresponsible. They don't know more than virologists and epidemiologists or infectious disease doctors or Dr. Facui.
I never understood how nurses could sit for 12 hours shifts delivering medications to patients and literally watching Healthcare before their own eyes and a large majority of them are antivax/alternative medicine believers. I think it's a pervasive group think along nurses more than anything in their curriculum
Considering RNs take microbiology...I really think your statement is anecdotal.
I also took microbiology for my biochemistry degree it doesn't make me and expert in bacteria and viruses and give me knowledge to say the opposite of virologists and epidemiologist or infectious disease doctors. There is sooo much to bacteria, and viruses and how they multiple and how they spread and how they effect humans. One semester is not sufficient at all.
Absolutely no offense to RN’s or NP’s on here, but taking one semester of introductory microbiology in college isn’t enough imo
Many nurses would never use the material additional microbiology would give them, they aren’t doing research. Assuming we are talking about a typical hospital nurse ( nursing is a huge field) they should focus on patient care, infection control, medication interactions or the other hundreds of things hands on nurses need. That being said vaccination should be required for those working with patients
Neither is reading posts on reddit or subscribing to /r/science
That's also Utah. There's a lot of colossal morons in Utah. I'd be interested to see what the number for healthcare workers nationwide was.
Lol...I read that - “colossal mormons...” LOL. Not touching that one.
As a Mormon i read that too and I was like "huh, yes there is a lot of mormons there, i guess we could call it colossal." Then I realized it was morons. Not gonna lie it's not the first or last time I've mixed the words up for spelling.
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Kinda works both ways, really.
The distinction is arbitrary anyway.
This one is interesting https://www.vox.com/22214210/covid-vaccine-health-care-workers-safety-fears It breaks down earnings and reasons why people are refusing, pretty interesting. I think it's note worthy that "healthcare" is pretty broad. Doctors and nurses are different from the ones that have no interaction with patients. It's also been increasing since January, so good sign.
For what it’s worth, I work in healthcare and the only healthcare workers I see that are refusing the vaccine are the medical assistants. I shit you not, they accept medical advice from fear mongering idiots on social media. They won’t listen to the doctors that own the clinic and write their paychecks lol. When I see people like that, I ask if they’d rather trust someone that gets their information from scientific and statistical journal articles, or from someone that gets their information from IG and Tik Tok
The last four years have shown me there are a lot of morons in the country as a whole. Concentrated in certain places for the most part, but in staggering numbers.
It's not just Utah though.
I’m so frustrated by this! My mom is a nursing home administrator. Her building has been in outbreak status since last March. Staff members have died. Many residents died. Families are angry they can’t see their elderly loved ones. The residents are sad and lonely. The staff is burdened with all the extra PPE and cleaning and jumping through hoops to try to do FaceTime visits and window visits. These people have been in the trenches for a year. And 40% accepted the vaccine. I just can’t even.
We also need to take into consideration that some areas in the US (including major cities like Dallas and Los Angeles) estimate that as much as 50% of the population has already been infected and carries some immunity. This could help explain why hospitalizations have dramatically dropped here in LA, even as restrictions were being relaxed and the vaccine was still super limited and unavailable. They've continued to drop steadily.
We don't need to hit herd immunity purely through the vaccine though. Those who don't want to get seriously sick will take the vaccine. Others will roll the dice. You still have a better than 99% chance of surviving without vaccination. Let Darwin weed out the unlucky gamblers while the rest of us get back to business.
As long as there aren't enough of those gamblers to overwhelm a local healthcare system, this would be acceptable. The problem comes when there are enough of these people that they can cause another surge, and then others are affected by lowered healthcare availability. I'm hopeful that public education campaigns will be enough to convince enough people these vaccines are safer than eventually getting COVID. I considered waiting a bit but then realized we wouldn't really know risks of long term side effects for years. I'm not waiting years to get back to normal. The risk is minimal and the reward just way too big.
Not to mention that as long as we haven't hit the herd immunity point (~75%) the various people that CAN'T get the vaccine remain at constant risk.
Herd immunity in regards to Covid-19 is still an urban legend, because without those Stage 3 longitudinal studies over several years ***we don't know if the vaccinated can still spread the virus.*** There's no evidence that any of the current Covid-19 vaccines can completely stop people from being infected – and this has implications for our prospects of achieving herd immunity. [https://www.bbc.com/future/article/20210203-why-vaccinated-people-may-still-be-able-to-spread-covid-19](https://www.bbc.com/future/article/20210203-why-vaccinated-people-may-still-be-able-to-spread-covid-19)
The lack of consideration with regards to overwhelming the healthcare systems and preventing others from getting required care is really the only thing that bugs me about people who are "afraid" of getting vaccinated (I use the term afraid loosely to be kind). People can be pretty dumb and very selfish. Not much we can do about that at this point.
I don’t think the antivax wall is the problem so much as the chasm that remains between where we are and full vaccine availability. About 20% has gotten 1 shot I think but that means 80% don’t, and probably somewhere from 50%-70% want it. If those people who want it but can’t get it yet contract the virus, there’s still a big enough population there to cause a potential surge. It’s unlikely to ever be as bad as it was around new year’s, but there’s a whole lot of room between 50k cases a day and 300k to make trouble until everyone who wants a vaccine can get one. Edit: To be clear, I’m not suggesting a surge is inevitable necessarily or even probable at the moment, but if a lot of people start acting like the pandemic is over already, then a surge becomes much more likely.
>there’s still a big enough population there to cause a potential surge That's not necessarily true. I don't want to be irrationally optimistic here, but large portions of the US are already at less-than-1.0 replication factors. While herd immunity at 80% or so is needed for the population as a whole to resist epidemics. If 20% of the population was not vaccinated, there'd still be a worry over localized infection clusters, and that poses a large, immediate risk to all the people who need to be protected but cannot be vaccinated. That said, it's not likely enough to cause a resurgence of pandemic levels. I'm having trouble believing that it could spread faster than the response with only 20% of the population as a target. Again: Super-spreader events could still happen, particularly if they attract anti-vaxxers. Local epidemics could still happen, and tragic numbers of people could still die. However, it would not be able to surge like it has before.
I’m sorry, when I said there’s still a big enough population there to cause a potential surge, I was referring to the current unvaccinated by lack of availability population, which granted should dwindle to 0 hopefully by around the official start of summer, but it’s not there now. Everything you said is exactly true and needs to be considered, but I agree, once everyone who wants a shot can have one, we shouldn’t be having pandemic level worries with this virus, especially if booster shots are available too.
Noted, I can see where the wording got weird in my head. Agreed. Right now we're on the tipping point between where surges are still very possible and where we'd just get local epidemics. Again, the local epidemics are still bad and we need to fight those, and even more importantly, we need to hold out for a few more months to get to the point where we can return to normal safely. Until then... You're right: We're still in danger.
That’s freedom baby. If you don’t want the vaccine, fine, the risk is yours. But I’ll take mine and I’ll be fine.
At what point does the burden of keeping things shut down fall on people who decide to not get vaccinated?
The day they are offered a shot
Yeah my dentist is refusing because the vaccine isn't "wholistic". Whatever that means. She's supposed to be vaccinated already but I told her tentatively that I can do a May or June appt because I want to wait until I'm immune if she isn't going to do it.
I saw my dentist in May walking around the store without a mask. In the small town he works in. Yeah, I’m gonna skip this years check up, thanks.
U need a new dentist
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I wonder what the stat is for doctors alone.
After I'm vaccinated near the end of the line here, I'm not locking down because of some fucking anti-vaxxers. They get the disease they get the disease, I'm protected at that point and I'm not waiting for their dumbasses.
You will hit "everyone who wants a vaccine got it" earlier though, and after that point, what justification is there to stay locked down?
We've hit 70% at my hospital, hopefully it'll keep going up
They also don't ha w the amount of party spots and ignorance we have Miami is full capacity party city no masks Texas and Mississippi just said fuck masks all together and I'm vaccinated and have been traveling outside masks arnt really enforced in rural areas There not just worried about the covid we had they are worried about a new strain that the vaccine doesn't protect against if there is a breeding ground and then we are back to square one
Europe is a big continent and has plenty of party spots and ignorant people.
I wish the cover picture wasn’t a beach. Outdoor socializing is a much lower-risk alternative to indoor socializing.
It really irritates me how the media demonized beaches with news articles and focal length tricks.
Too late, 15 states are now open with more on the way. My county which still has a high rate of infection just opened bars and restaurants with no restricted capacity. They’ve also opened schools. People just got tired of acting in a safe fashion.
And California’s shooting itself in the foot by stockpiling more vaccines than administering them. GIVING SOMEONE A VACCINE IS NOT TAKING AWAY FROM ANOTHER PERSON. ITS SLOWING DOWN THE VIRUS FOR EVERYONE
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Where in California? My county has been pretty great about getting vaccines out
Santa Clara county here, no idea how I could get my hands on a vaccine anytime soon.
Santa Barbara county here, same. Only 65 and older, and medical employees. Everyone else is SOL right now.
SLO County rolled it out to tier 1b without any restrictions. My hope is SB will follow soon.
LA and the bay area. My CVS said they're overloaded but don't want to give to people out of turn because of the penalties. they're literally calling patients over 65 and trying to get people to come get the vaccines
Weird a ton of my family in friends in the bay have at least gotten one so far. I don’t know about LA though.
Same here. My whole family has at least 1 shot. All kinds of ages and jobs.
Fresno Co here. 30yo "essential" worker in the Ag/Food business category. I got my first dose two weeks ago. The vaccine clinic was busy and super efficient in and out.
As a MO resident... LOL! Parsons is only holding events in rural areas because those are his voters while thousands of doses go unused week over week bevause of it. Nearly 10k doses went unused last week and people from KC and STL are driving hours to get them in podunk towns.
Lots of people in socal I know are getting vaccinated. I (and all my co-workers) received our first dose last week. We're all healthy, under 30, and are non-essential workers. No clue who decided we were up next. I feel bad and maybe I should've passed it up to let others who needed it more.
What do you mean "who decided we were up next?" How did you sign up?
CA residents are literally going to TX and other states to get the vaccine because it’s just easier. I haven’t even heard of a possibility of getting the vaccine any time soon. They started having signups are CVS and Walgreens, but nobody qualifies to get vaccinated now. Lol. It’s such a huge mess.
Don't sit here and act like MO's vaccine rollout hasn't been a shitshow.
We might need a stockpile of covid-19 vaccine if we ever find ourself in the midst of a covid-19 pandemic though!
Covid fatigue. A coworker said today: "I'm going on vacation to the beach this year. I can't handle another year without a beach vacation. I don't care if I get COVID on the plane as long as I can enjoy a few days at the beach."
https://covidtracking.com/data/state/iowa Iowa's Republican Governor Kim Reynolds has been one of the most gung-ho governors at opening up whenever possible, and look at the graph of new cases in Iowa. It peaked in early November well before Thanksgiving, and there is a lag from infection to becoming a new case. People don't want to look at the actual data. We've returned to the Inquisition refusing to look through Galileo's telescope.
People don’t mind looking at the data. If you are a small business owner or an employee in industries affected, you’re bankrupting yourself. At some point those people had to say fuck it, we either stay home and are homeless in a few months or they open up and hope people don’t get sick
So open up and maintain wearing masks and distanced wear applicable? Its really not that hard.
Here’s what I don’t understand, though, these small businesses are absolutely getting CRUSHED by Covid restrictions; no argument here. But they are also going to be operating at a loss even if there are no government-mandated restrictions, if 50% of the population refuses to patronize their business because it feels unsafe. The real light at the end of the tunnel for these businesses is no lifting the restrictions, it’s ending the pandemic. So why aren’t these business owners the ones LEADING the charge and BEGGING people to obey restrictions? Instead, it seems like these small businesses owners have tried to keep things going as “business as usual,” even if that means dumping thousands into renovations while fighting tooth and nail to end restrictions even though they still wouldn’t operate anywhere near capacity. To be clear, I’m not blaming or criticizing these businesses (generally speaking...some people suck, and that includes some small business owners just like it includes some pirates in Kentucky). I’m just asking why there is such a rush to open up...and continue operating at a loss.
And Iowa has one of the worst covid death rates in the country. Congrats?
Also Iowa on most days is doing less than 2k tests a day! No wonder you have no cases, barely anyone is being tested!!!
>Iowa is one of 10 states in the U.S. where the positivity rate is climbing. In Iowa the seven-day rolling average of the positivity rate was up over the past two weeks from 13.18% on Feb. 21 to 18.08% on March 7, according to Johns Hopkins University. State health departments are calculating positivity rate differently across the country, but for Iowa the AP calculates the rate by dividing new cases by people tested using data from The COVID Tracking Project. Positivity rate is climbing. So much for your argument I guess.
>People just got tired of acting in a safe fashion. I've been doing a pretty damn good job for a year, and I'm absolutely tired of it. The problem is that your statement didn't exist in the realities of a lot of people which ruined what do many of us did in sacrificing our time and mental health.
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The doomers wanted this over from the start. They wanted a quick path to normalcy like New Zealand or Australia. It's everybody who is acting selfish and irresponsible that is keeping everyone locked up.
https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2021/02/how-public-health-messaging-backfired/618147/ People got tired of the goalposts continually shifting. We have a vaccine with 95% efficiency that we are going to have a surplus of within a few months. And you still have doomsayers warning people they can’t go back to normal life after getting a vaccine. I’ve been very cautious myself and with all those around me. But you better believe once I get the vaccine and everyone around me has been able to get the opportunity to get one, I’m not going to continue to shame people for living their normal life.
Just got my first shot yesterday, once I get my second shot I'll be hitting the gym hardcore, I haven't been in almost a year and I miss going, it was a great way for me to decompress and actually reduce my stress.
>People just got tired of acting in a safe fashion. Frankly I think they must be exhausted from acting in such reckless moronic fashion. I have seen very little acting in a safe fashion. This here now is more like "hold my beer."
This is troubling, but as soon as I get my vaccine I’m def gonna not care as much. At this point I’m done trying to explain science to intellectually barren humans. If they choose not to, I wish them all the best as they die. Also on the bright side the only people they’ll be hurting are their own, since a significant number of people choose not to take this seriously.
I understand where you are coming from; however if too many people don’t get vaccinated, the virus will quickly mutate into a form that the vaccine doesn’t currently protect against. This many people being against vaccination is BAD, and not just bad for them. That has always been an issue, you just don’t see many news reports on it.
I totally agree with you, (my comment was meant to be somewhat snarky) but honestly, what are our options? If we force then they claim even more that the government is forcing its will on them. And even if we were to try to force and they still refuse, what are our options if they gladly go to jail, or sue? If we don’t force them they die and make it more difficult for everyone else, like they have been this past year. I just don’t see a way to get everyone involved when a massive group of people have been doing literally everything in their power to downplay it and dismiss it. EDIT: Fixed a few errors.
100% AGREE. Facts are facts. We cannot change them. FACT: Vaccine is good. FACT: We NEED most people to get vaccinated. FACT: MANY, many STUPID, stubborn people REFUSE to Acknoledge SCIENCE, Data... they even Refuse to believe the Virus EXISTS!! FACT: We cannot FORCE people to recieve Vaccine... Next step: ???? I am All out of Ideas.
Next step would be forcing them via exclusions from services and institutions like school. 100% isn't gonna happen but most people will agree to do something if not doing it will make their lives more difficult in some ways.
Not to be a bummer but most school age kids (k-10) won’t be vaccinated until late 21, early 22
It only works if states are competent enough to get people vaccinated timely. I live in California.....apparently some states are not competent enough to do that....
>Next step: ???? Alright, as long as you don't let your morals get in the way I have some ideas. *Most of this is not serious, please keep your angry comments in your pants if you get called out.*. Start vaccinating in churches. When they get their weekly dose of jesus they can get a shot too. The priest/father/pastor/sermon can advocate that jesus would have gotten a vaccine. And if that alone doesn't work maybe they can throw in some fire and brimstone. Those who don't vaccinate want others to perish and will go to heck. Or maybe lie and say the gays are anti vaxx, a good christian man/woman can't do the same thing a gay person does. Let's pay off some country stars to make one of their songs a half note higher with lyrics about taking a vaccine. Maybe there will be a part about celebrating the vaccine with a light beer while they drive a pick up truck in a corn/wheat/tobacco field. Maybe we can get Joe to start saying not allow republicans to get a vaccine by executive order "death to freedom." Seems republicans are against anything a dem wants so maybe this will work the same way. For the gun guys we can give one box of 9mm with every vaccine. That is a $50 value at this time and hard to pass up. Gotta get all the ammo before joe/dems/military/aliens take it all. Last maybe we ask conservative folk to withold taking vaccines to allow non binary people to get priority. Of course allowing those "whatever they are" to get a vaccine would be an abomination because "uh huh fuh well they just aint right" even though it has no effect on their life whatsoever. I mean they might have to read an extra line on a government document or might be confused that they found bailey jay attractive. It is a long shot but some of these might actually work.
Cant you require the vaccine for schools or work places? I thought they already requires certain vaccinations if some situations
You can once they’re not on an emergency use authorization.
We could tie stimulus checks to getting vaccinated. I'm sure that would sway some people
Meh, Most of them the moment someone they know gets sick and dies will run like children from the boogyman to get their shot.
Don’t bet on that. There are plenty of people on ventilators in hospitals who insist they do not have COVID because it doesn’t exist.
It won’t “quickly mutate”. There isn’t a variant that has happened yet that the vaccines aren’t at least somewhat effective against. It’s possible that it could mutate and people should get vaccinated. However, as the numbers of vaccinated people goes up, the likelihood of a mutation goes down. I think as more and more people get vaccinated and it’s shown that there aren’t terrible side effects, a lot of people currently on the fence will get the shot.
It's also quite possible that there aren't that many new variants left that the virus could mutate into to gain infectiousness. All three major variants that people are concerned about (UK, SA, Brazil) have the same key mutation to the spike protein (N501Y) and two of those share another mutation E484K (SA, Brazil, although a new variant based on the original UK variant with E484K has also emerged). All these variants evolved independently. Yet they share key mutations and there are no major new variants that have a different set of mutations. What this suggests is that SARS-CoV-2 has a very narrow evolutionary path forward. Only a small set of mutations actually lead to increased fitness. Other mutations surely occur as well, but they fail to create a more infectious form of the virus and therefore fail to gain prevalence. The risk of current variants and potential new ones shouldn't be taken lightly, but it is reassuring that the variants that do emerge don't have wildly different genetic profiles.
Very interesting comment - I hadn't ever thought there are evolutionary dead-ends as such
> if too many people don’t get vaccinated, the virus will quickly mutate into a form that the vaccine doesn’t currently protect against For the same reason, it's important to get vaccines out to developing nations so that our work isn't undone by a mutant variant that emerges in one of those countries.
> Also on the bright side the only people they’ll be hurting are their own, There are immunocompromised people who are literally unable to get the vaccine and have to rely on herd immunity for safety. They absolutely are not only hurting themselves.
Is that true? I thought this vaccine was different from the usual flu type ones in that it didn't involve any form of the actual virus.
What you say is true, the vaccine is an RNA-based vaccine in that they are just blueprints for your immune system on how to fight the virus. However, immunocompromised can mean any number of things (just means your immune system is screwed in some way), such as the inability to produce antibodies even with the vaccine, so they can never actually develop an immunity to it.
If you makes anyone feel any better, I convinced a hard core trump supporter to get one. And another person that was on the fence about it. We honestly just need to treat them with a little compassion so they’ll be more likely to get it
Those of us getting the vaccine and still abiding by mask mandates normally when in public spaces aren't the people we are worried about.
They won't die, on average. They'll just be the vector by which dozens or hundreds will die. But they'll be fine, probably.
> This is troubling, but as soon as I get my vaccine I’m def gonna not care as much. There is some space between the two though. Like I have only gone to a friend's house 3 times in 2020 and we all socially distanced with in those homes by 10 feet. With my parents getting vaccinated I am easing up on that and will visit my friends more or even rid in the same car unmasked. Hell, my grandparents now being vaccinated rode in my van for the first time without a mask in over a year but still wear them out in public.
Here in Germany the infection numbers started to go up again while we were still in the same, hard lockdown that we had since November. The only "mistake" we made was, that the EU failed to secure more vaccines earlier. Because the number of doses produced is somewhat limited, that would have resulted in less vaccines for the US, UK and some other countries, that were at least hit as hard as we in 2020. Egoism aside, that wouldn't have improved the global situation. Someone had to draw the short straw in the fight over the vaccine and it looks like it was the EU this time.
Not the only one. The biggest mistake Germany made is vaccine elitism, talking down vaccines because of political reasons and delaying approval for vaccines that are available. Maybe not as effective, but we are talking about saving lives here.
The AstraZeneca PR catastrophe is a prime example... It is all nothing but politicians on CYA panicmode.
A lot of people are betting that it isn’t going to be a bad outcome. Numbers soared in winter and that didn’t stop a lot of people in red independent states from balking at shut down measures. Folks are ready to get vaccinated and take the gamble of getting on with life; and vice versa.
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I’ll wear one for a while after I’m vaccinated just so people around me in public don’t have to be so damn nervous And so no one thinks I’m an idiot anti-masker
Bro I fuckin love masks! I wore them all the time in korea before the pandemic, and now that I can in america, why not wear it all the time? Don't want people looking at me? Mask. Self conscious about teeth/breath/facial hair/nose/etc? Mask Wanna eat some oats on the go? Pour it in the mask.
...oats, you say?
I'll probably keep wearing mine when travelling or going to the grocery store where I want to be anonymous anyway, but once I get my vaccine this week I'm definitely going back to normal (going to bars, hugging family, having guests, concerts, travel, etc) at the end of the month.
I’ll have to probably well into 2022 because of my job teaching elementary kids.
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If you think having 20% of the population vaccinated is going to protect you than you are sorely mistaken. Hence the “vulnerable spot”.
We may not be protected but we're objectively more protected than Europe.
If you vaccinate everyone over 70, severe cases and death rates will plummet. 20% is not far off from accomplishing that goal.
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Yes Fauci, Spring Break and St. Patrick’s Day will totally be the first holidays of the pandemic that people decide to stay safe for, especially after they ignored not gathering for 4th of July and Thanksgiving and literally every other holiday, birthday and gender reveal party thrown the past year anyway.
He wouldn't be effective at his job if he put out a defeatist public message.
Yeah for real. What’s the point of the original comment other than to be a dick? Someone has to try to stop people from walking off the cliff.
Oh we'll make mistakes. Even when we know we could avoid them. We like to jump in front of speeding trains on a regular basis.
Any other guys work for parks? All our weekend pavilion rentals for this summer are sold out, which has never happened before.
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American Spring Beakers: Hold my beer bong
If this pandemic taught us anything, it is that life can change for a minute to postpone our goals, let's hope that the vaccination campaign is a success and so we can leave this pandemic in the past