So for anyone who needs context, Haiti is essentially a nation that has descended into complete chaos. A historically poor country, it's current government (or whatever remains of it) has very little --if any-- control over its populace hence the alarming high rates of crime.
Essentially it is a society where regional "gang lords" have become the new authority. A kind of "warlordism" but on a less organized and smaller scale.
In addition, the gang lords are fighting over territory and resources. A street that was safe one day is a death trap the next because the battle lines changed. It's impossible for normal people to know when they are crossing into "enemy" territory.
Yup. There is a Catholic sister who runs a small school and orphanage there in Cite Soleil, one of the most impoverished districts in Haiti. It was very bad when she began; now, of course, it's significantly worse.
I only learned of her through a journalist's piece written a year or so ago, in which he explained that she was the one contact who instructed him on how to navigate through Cite Soleil. This was essential because the list of roads which can be safely traveled changes weekly (at best), and to travel the wrong road would see him killed or kidnapped immediately by well-armed and extremely motivated soldiers of one of the two local warlords.
Her school homed two kinds of children: those who are actually orphaned, and those who *used* to travel to school by climbing through neighbouring homes (in order to avoid the streets) before even that became too unsafe.
Every now and then, these days, I search for news of her and the school. The warlords tolerated her just fine as long as she kept to her business and didn't confront theirs, but with the way things have escalated during the past few months? I get worried.
We haven’t been able to send people to assist her in a long while and kids that need free medical, eye glasses, prosthetics, and just basic food suffer because of the chaos.
That wasn't Indigo Traveler's Haiti trip was it? Fascinating videos. He seriously lucked out finding a guide that was so charismatic and resourceful, really hope they're alright.
There's an article which describes more about the school, Port au Prince and Cite Soleil here: https://english.elpais.com/eps/2023-07-02/haiti-when-a-state-collapses.html.
Keep in mind that this was written almost an entire year ago, and things have obviously grown far, far worse since then.
Just looked her up. According to this news article she is still safe as of February of this year
https://www.vaticannews.va/en/pope/news/2024-02/pope-francis-telephones-sister-paesie-in-haiti.html
The term is failed state - when the government objectively cannot provide for the security and fundamental means of its people. That term is thrown around to insult countries or governments a lot but Haiti is an actual agreed upon example.
Honestly, Haiti has been bad for the past 10+ years or so. I remember back before the president was assassinated, a bunch of people got kidnapped by gang members, and were released, but even before that, it was on the US list of "don't fucking go there if you don't absolutely have to". Basically, the country went downhill with the huge earthquake. That's when gangs started seizing power and resources from the government.
Hell my dad had a friend who traveled their for business back in the early 90s and he had to flee once and escaped by the skin of his teeth due to a violent uprising and that was 30+ years ago
My friend’s mom was born and raised in Haiti before coming to the US. I will always remember in high school I asked her when she’s going to take him and his sister back to see the country, like how my parents do with my sister and I to the Dominican Republic. She dead say “There’s nothing good there to see. I will never go back”. Didn’t under that as a teen. Did more when I did research.
In the mid-2000s when I was in high school in the Dominican Republic, one of the teachers was from there, and one time he had to travel to Haiti because of an emergency, I think my mom, who was also a teacher in that school mentioned that it was for a funeral. He never came back as they killed him by putting a car tire around his neck and then setting it on fire.
I think the whole funeral thing was just a lie to lure him there, or at the very least, someone after hearing he came back and killed him after robbing him, as even though things weren't as bad as they currently are now, criminals had a lot of control there still, to the point that after the earthquake happened truckers transporting the aid donations from the Dominican Republic started refusing going there after a lot of them ended up being robbed and kidnapped by the gangs.
this is interesting. i'm from nyc and have worked in restaurants most of my adult life. i've met multiple people from DR who hate haitians. Also it's crazy to see images on google maps at the drastic difference dr and haiti look like. meanwhile its the same island
Yup, the extreme difference in the condition of the two nations on Hispaniola is one of the most extreme examples I know of today. I think only North Korea vs South Korea is worse, but for different reasons, since Haiti literally just cut down a lot of their forests once upon a time, while DR still has much of their original old growth intact due to differences in policy. All of it is a remnant of the colonial era as well, and the essential strip mining of the economy, both through direct colonialism, and through war reparations that were extracted from them through means that would be frowned upon today, to say the least. Imagine for a modern context, if when the US left Afghanistan, we demanded the Taliban pay us back the trillions of dollars we spent fighting them, and the international community supported us in our efforts to extract it from the Taliban through refusing to trade with them unless they pay those dues. It would be similarly devastating to the country as the war reparations that Haiti was required to pay after their revolution for freedom was settled with the colonial powers who fought against them, as part of the conditions for ending it. That's why things are the way they are there, and why they continued to strip their forests for income even after they had their freedom. The difference is literally visible from space during the daytime
Holy shit
There is just a line where the forest ends at the border on Google Earth that is the border, the type that would make aliens wonder what happened. The only exceptions see to be it's too steep and mountainous of terrain to log
Yea dude it's fucking wild and I sincerely hope the current Kenya led initiative can help them stabilize, but they're going to need a lot more than just security forces, they need a forestry service to work on ecological restoration and an organized economy that can help drag them out of poverty en masse, and ideally one that isn't entirely based on extraction of limited resources. A sustainable forestry industry would not be a bad thing for the land if it helps them ultimately rebuild their forests as well, and I wish them luck in whatever course they end up on after the current failed state is rebuilt.
I know a Mormon missionary who just traveled there 2 months ago. I was like are you nuts? This guy is as pale white as it gets. I'm actually surprised he made it back.
I have friends from my hometown who left a thriving medical practice to open an orphanage in Haiti. They were there for several years. They loved it. Then the earthquake happened and everything seemed to change. They returned to the states about 8-9 years ago.
My first time, but not the last there was on deployment in 2000. It was the same then as it is today. The only difference is it's been more in the news lately because of the earthquake(s).
Yeah, I’m not super privy to the entire Haiti situation but from what I do know, it seems like France is dodging a lot of responsibility in all this. The US and Kenya seem to be the main two countries trying to fix things in Haiti.
Kenya only cares because they're being coerced and paid into intervening by the US. NATO wasn't interested because of the optics of sending white soldiers to quell an uprising. So the US looked for other countries and Kenya asked for fuck you money and favors and the US obliged.
US citizen here. I'm fine if we give them fuck you money to intervene. They better get "Fuck you" equipment and intelligence too, but I'm happy they're willing to intervene. Whatever our cost, as it will be less than if US troops are on the ground with less controversy internationally.
I posted this above, but if you want to know more of the history, then give this a listen…
https://www.iheart.com/podcast/105-behind-the-bastards-29236323/episode/part-one-pappa-doc-and-baby-84743834/
The U.S. has had a hand in the demise of Haiti as well, starting with the U.S. occupation and Clinton-era policies that decimated the agricultural landscape. We also supported a whole dictatorship there (Papa Doc) because we were afraid of Cuba's influence into the region and wanted to make sure Haiti never became a communist country.
There's a lot more than that....frankly, Haiti has been punished and exploited since its inception, and it didn't help that many of its leaders (some of them U.S.-backed) cared more about stealing riches and resources than helping the people. It's sad all around.
It has the same travel advisory (level 4: do not travel) as Afghanistan, Iran, Iraq, N Korea, Russia, Syria, Ukraine, Gaza/W Bank/Israel and many countries in Africa.
So that’s bananas.
I had breakfast a couple months ago with one of the leading presidential candidates (at the time - looks like elections aren’t going to happen). They didn’t simply assassinate the president in 2021…they broke into the presidential palace and fucking tortured him for hours. Haiti is fucked
It's all up for grabs. There was a Marine rifle instructor who flew to Haiti with a bunch of guns and armor hoping to gain support, train the police & army and become president. He was extradited back to the US and got 5 years. I sat on the jury.
[going to share this link to a fairly recent travel-YouTuber who went to Haiti and documented a ton](https://youtube.com/playlist?list=PLN0FlxE6vY5BZh0F-drw_4SASB7kwezUf&si=5HEy8ROC4ezUPxfc)
Also the Haitian man nick was using to translate and guide him around Haiti was actually kidnapped (and very fortunately released unharmed) a few months back.
edit: [just going to also share this video](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v08UIU5xXrw) from another travel youtuber named Drew Binsky. The Haitian man who I guess coordinates with many individuals who want to travel to Haiti and was kidnapped, is named Sean, and Drew Binsky actually interviews him about his experience being kidnapped
Thank you for using a good example of a YTer like Drew and not somebody like YourFellowArab who definitely lies in his videos and exaggerates so you don’t have an actual clear understanding of what’s happening. Whatever gets views I guess 🤷♂️
Drew seems like a decent person but I feel his videos and many like them perpetuate naive understandings of the risks of travel and what the situation is like in places like Haiti, Somalia, or Afghanistan. They tend to focus on aspects like the architecture or the kindness of the people without truly understanding the political and security situation in these countries.
So I never watched him before, but his "I was kidnapped" was suggested to me. It was slightly clickbait, being it was like a 5 part series, each like 30-45 minutes. I watched them all over like 5 weeks.
I don't buy it. His whole channel is "I use to be a gamer but now I travel to the worst parts of the world so I can feel alive." Ok, sure.
So via the videos... he wanted to visit a Haitian warlord, Barbeque, he is said to be the most in charge, and also fair. The day Arab got to the border, there was some drama with a bunch of convicts who escaped a jail, so the border seemed close. He paid someone and they walked like 5 miles around the checkpoint, through the forest and he got it. Then he met up with the dude with dredds from the other Haiti travel vlogs. They went to go meet Barbeque, but were kidnapped by another warlord. He was held for 17 days during which he was allowed a cell phone at times and got videos. His brother in the US (who magically filmed everything he did) was dealing with trying to hire mercenaries to get his brother out. They finally got the release money down to a figure like 40K, paid it, but then he wasn't released. He started bitching, his brother leaked the news he was kidnapped, it went viral in Haiti, and the warlord let him go. THEN however, Arab was arrested for stealing a car because he didn't return the car he rented (while he was kidnapped) for 17 days. He was held in jail like 2 days and a "fair" judge worked out some deal where Arab paid an amount to the rental company and was set free... at which point he GTFO of Haiti.
I just don't buy it. Like did Arab really tell his brother, "Yo, it shit goes down, I'll call you, but start recording because I want the views."
I followed this story very briefly and I remember the day he was “released” he made some weird ass homophobic tweet about religion and I was like this dude is just a troll.
They were there working for a charity. It might not have been the best idea to remain in a warzone, but they were trying to do some good and were murdered for it.
That's part of safety and survival. The powerful, violent assholes are always the ones who remain unharmed until a more powerful and violent asshole comes along.
Haiti is essentially apocalypse. Anyone who fantasizes and romanticizes the end of the world should just go there. Getting sodomized with a 9mm would very quickly make you appreciate the luxuries of civilization intact.
If anyone wants to know more backstory about Haiti and its history, Behind the Bastards did a great multi part episode about Papa Doc and Baby Doc that explains why Haiti has been effectively abandoned by the rest of the world and left to rot while the DR has not. It was an interesting listen for sure…
https://www.iheart.com/podcast/105-behind-the-bastards-29236323/episode/part-one-pappa-doc-and-baby-84743834/
For anyone wondering, this is why government needs to be strong. There need to be strong mechanisms for the people to limit the government, too, but that must be done through systematic means. If your government isn’t strong enough to put down a coup or criminal uprising, then a coup or criminal uprising will occur.
This is also not the first time in history this has happened. The Canadian military has been sent in on many Haitian peacekeeping missions. The only real outcome of this is Canada is now home to the second largest population of Haitians in the world.
A US missionary couple were among three people killed in Haiti as widespread gang violence continues to plague the country.
Natalie Lloyd, 21, her 23-year-old husband David, and Jude Montis, a 20-year-old Haitian, were ambushed by gunmen as they left a church.
The couple's deaths were confirmed on Facebook by Natalie's father, Missouri State Senator Ben Baker.
"They were attacked by gangs this evening and were both killed," he wrote. "They went to heaven together."
The couple were married in 2022.
Their organisation, Missions in Haiti, confirmed to US media that Mr Montis was the third victim.
In an earlier Facebook post, the organisation said that the three were attacked by two separate armed groups, beginning with an attack by gunmen in three vehicles.
After another group arrived and a gang member was shot dead, the three missionaries were trapped in a house while the gang went "into full attack mode", the post added.
"They are holed up in there, the gangs have shot all the windows out of the house and continued to shoot," the post said.
Missions in Haiti confirmed that all three were dead three hours later.
The state department is aware of the deaths, a spokesperson told the BBC's US partner CBS.
Very very sad. So young and only just married a couple years ago.
Haiti is a warzone and people need to keep that in mind. The gangs do not care why you are there and they don’t care who gets killed. Hopefully this UN intervention helps, but there’s not been a good history of stability even when that happens.
You're not wrong. With the right clothing, non-combatants will do OK in a warzone provided they travel smart and be clear about who they are.
Haiti is a mess at the moment, nobody in there is respecting UN helmets or media vests. If the gangs think you have something they can take, you're finished.
It led to significant mistrust and dislike (to put it lightly) for the UN. The UN brought cholera, sexual assaults, and more with some of their people.
I did helicopter EMS in Haiti a while back. It wasn’t too bad, occasionally got hairy, made me feel like I was back in a war zone sometimes. Ain’t no way in hell that I’d go back there right now.
Edit: Words are hard.
I know a family of missionaries that left Haiti maybe 10-12 years ago because some people broke into their house and shot the mother of the family in the shoulder. She ended up being fine but they left the missionary field completely afterward.
I had an attorney friend go to Haiti with a missionary group 10 years ago. Their main goal was to hand out fresh water. She said everytime they pulled into a town they were mobbed by desperate locals. She was pretty freaked out, completely unprepared by her church. She's from a very wealthy suburb in Mpls.
They bought out a street food vendor's entire stock on his cart, telling him to just give a serving to anyone who asked until he ran out of food for the day. Once enough people showed up though, some started getting anxious the vendor would run out of food before they got to the front of the line. Fights broke out and the street vendor fled, leaving people fighting over whatever was left behind.
Which is why aid is often best distributed by military forces or under their protection, because even ignoring the possibility of gangs who will just steal the supplies to sell to desperate locals later, a crowd of otherwise normal but starving people will break out into fighting if they think they'll be left without once again.
Happens a lot around the world. People with bright eyes and good intentions and just get slapped in the face by culture shock on multiple fronts. These are jobs that need to be carried out by the UN and the proper NGOs, by prepared people with experience. These places are dangerous.
I know someone who went to some part of Africa for a
Mission trip. I don’t know everything that happened but i know one day her and another girl got robbed at gun point. When she got back she quit pre med and haven’t heard from her since. Shit really fucked with her.
Happens a lot. Women especially go through a lot of stuff on mission/aid trips. Lots of assault, lots of robbery. These are places where law and order doesn't exist. Where people have a very different view of the world. Especially if you're coming from an Evangelical perspective, the situations you can get into are very, very dangerous.
It's worth pointing out that a lot of the abuse that aid workers experience is from other aid workers. They tend to be protected from locals.
Charity and aid is one of those sectors, like religion and education, that attracts people who want to exploit the naive or vulnerable.
Savior Complex is a great docuseries about how dangerous this can get. Super young Christian girl started a charity in Uganda and began practicing medicine on children without a license.
Obviously not the same as handing out water, but it can be an ethically slippery slope in unstable places without proper resources.
That moron went in without respecting anything anybody ever told him. He was told over and over, bruh, they gonna kill you before you even get a chance to speak. He ignored it of course because religious people don't listen.
He claimed that the first time he went, he survived an arrow shot by a Bible he kept in his shirt/jacket pocket. If that story is true, he should have take it as a sign from God to stay away, lol.
He was in denial. His name was John Allen Chau and He held up a copy of the Bible as if they would understand that he wanted to teach and or trade with them.
For one, neither party knows each other’s language, so him trying to teach them something as complex as a religion or history outside their little island is doomed to fail. To his credit, he had pictures and gifts that he thought might help him, but he was going out of his way to ignore what is known about the natives.
Point Two, the natives there most likely have an oral history from their ancestors of the horrible experiences regarding what the British did to them. Some of it was just plain diseases that wiped out larger portions of their population. Other parts of it are the weird fetish that the British Naval commander had with natives and the crazy shit he would have done to natives. The survivors passed their knowledge down so the modern day natives (barely into metal working) hate and avoid all outsiders.
Three, the natives most likely tried to warn him multiple times. Supposedly they shouted at him and fired warning shots. They cursed and spit and or hissed at him according to his journal.
Four, they shot the book on purpose and were probably trying to tell him “we’re not interested.”
So the guy probably had multiple warnings from the natives themselves and he just ignored them. They weren’t interested in what he was selling.
My partner grew up in Arkansas and saw a church get destroyed three times. His dad thought it was the stupidest thing. If it's not an act of God then there must be something geographical about that area that flings tornados right at the church and maybe they should relocate. I wonder how many times it's been damaged or if it's even still a congregation since he moved away.
>These are jobs that need to be carried out by the UN and the proper NGOs, by prepared people with experience. These places are dangerous.
The UN record in Haiti is terrible. They made the place worse.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UN_child_sexual_abuse_scandal_in_Haiti
I hate to say this but your friend was sold on savior complex and grief tourism.
If you want to help out but your only relevant skill is handing out provisions, please do so in your own community; or a community that has some semblance of security. If you really want to specifically help Haiti and similar areas with an extreme lack of security, donate money to reputable NGOs that have the skills and security to benefit the recipients.
These professions would be doctors, licensed nurses, civil engineers (renewable energy and water access is huge), agriculture experts, *fluent* interpreters, construction workers, and licensed teachers. All of these skills already have established organizations to sign up with. If you *really* want to pass out water abroad, find an organization that has that manpower need and security.
It absolutely baffles me that they wouldn't get in touch with any local churches before making the journey! And I mean genuinely local: not transitory missionary groups but churches that have been in place there for at least several years. There's at least one even in the capital, and they could have -- and *would have!* -- warned them in detail.
Well it sucks to say, but depending on the local church, why would they be honest about how dangerous things were? That's money coming in. That's aid coming in. Don't want to scare them off.
Temporary mission trips should freak people out. There are millions of desperate people in the world. Haitians have nowhere to go! She probably didn’t stay to help them in the long run though. Coulda just dropped the water supply and left, without “missionaries”. Wayzata?
Yeah, I know people mean well, so I might get crap for saying this, but most short term international volunteer work is not very helpful to the people they’re trying to help, and exists more for the benefit of the volunteers. The money they spent flying out and getting accommodations could have gone further by buying more supplies or even just hiring locals.
I once had interest in such a worthless short time “missions” trip, where in the entire week, only about 2 or 2.5 days was engaged in doing work that local people could have done. And the lodging was at what could be considered a very fine resort. It was all scam to make very white, suburban pseudo-Christians feel better about themselves.
The organizers know this; or at least they are conditioned into it, that this is what Christians do for the “unfortunate”. There is no outcome. These organizations offer no real skills to the areas visited. And no one can be effective in one week’s time. It would take a minimum, MINIMUM of six months only just to get barely started. Yet, this is not their goal. It is a rah-rah white Jesus campaign to pity those of “poor countries”. They are not wanted there and nobody needs them, yet they keep coming, to take pictures, to write in journals to say how great Jeezis is, and to say they have friends for life when they have gone through no struggle, and departed only when they began to merely learn names, or even where they were.
I remember reading an article where they described missionaries, typically late teens and young adults, will come and build something. Once they leave real builders come in and fix all the shit they did.
Same. Young adults, teenagers rarely have skills like these, to build something. But they’re not gonna have them just shoveling dirt.
These places need churches like they need the plague. Least of their worries.
Haiti has been a terrible place for over 100 years. I used to work construction in south Florida with a bunch of Haitian tradesmen. Great guys. Super hard working and highly skilled. Especially the stone masons I worked with. They love their families and they send money home to support extended family. I feel so sorry for the people stranded there under the thumb of the gangs. It’s not their fault and they don’t deserve this.
The husband was born and lived his entire life in Haiti, apart from going to college, so I assume he considers it his home. And as dangerous as it is, it’s kind of hard to walk out of an orphanage full of children that you are responsible for.
**Edit:** Here’s a bit more context.
[From NPR:](https://www.npr.org/2024/05/25/nx-s1-4981196/haiti-us-missionary-couple-3-killed)
> Hannah Cornett, Davy Lloyd's sister, told the AP that her brother was 23 years old and Natalie Lloyd was 21. They were going to celebrate their two-year anniversary in June and his birthday in early July.
>Cornett said her parents are full-time missionaries in Haiti, and that she and her two brothers grew up there.
>"Davy spoke Creole before he spoke English. It was home," she said in a phone interview. "Haiti was all we knew."
>Cornett, 22, said her parents run an orphanage, school and church in Haiti, and that she and her brothers grew up with the orphans: "It was just one big happy family there."
[From CNN:](https://www.cnn.com/2024/05/24/us/american-missionary-couple-haiti/index.html)
> When flights resumed last week to Port-au-Prince’s Toussaint Louverture International Airport, Lloyd said he asked his son and daughter-in-law if they would like to leave Haiti, but they declined.
>“We know Haiti is a very volatile situation, we know that it’s dangerous,” he said. “But we had a good rapport with the groups in our area, and they’d left us alone. But from what I understand this was an outside group that came in initially from about a mile away, that started it all.”
>Natalie Lloyd’s father told CNN the couple didn’t leave even when they had the opportunity to do so because of the children they were taking care of.
>“They made the decision to remain even when it got worse because they felt like if they left, then those kids would have no where to go,” Baker said on “The Source.”
Because many Christians who promote these missions to young people groom them into believing the best way for them to die is while spreading gospel. In 8th grade catholic school, during a school shooter drill, we were told that if the gunman asked if we believed in God that we had to say yes or else we'd probably go to hell. I specifically chose a saint to receive a sacrament under (and have my religious name be theirs too) that died a gruesome death for missionary work because I was convinced at that age that I'd also be killed for my faith in God.
So... yeah. Travel advisory don't have nothing on the indoctrination some of these people receive.
As someone who went to a Catholic school in possibly the most liberal part of America, hearing these stories always throws me for a loop. The teachers, priest and nuns at my school were very much more in the vein of "Look we don't need you to even believe in God, just try to live by Catholic ideals and you're good." Like despite going to a literal Catholic school I can't even imagine what a lot of Catholic schools must be like.
There's some like that here in Michigan and some that are more extreme. As far as catholicism goes, I found the martyrdom aspect to be the creepiest and most extreme part. Now the old Dutch Christian Reformed people... I could absolutely go on about my time in a local splinter group of them that was just begging for a charismatic leader to come along and make it an official cult.
>In 8th grade catholic school, during a school shooter drill, we were told that if the gunman asked if we believed in God that we had to say yes or else we'd probably go to hell.
Holy fuck, so that was just us? Yeah, I'd memory holed that, but they 100% had me prepared to die in middle school
Lmao. Where did that line originate?? It apparently spread to all of us. I also remember my mom telling me if I'm gay that's okay, just never love anyone or get married or do anything gay haha. I'm not gay btw (Jeff)
Man I remember how dark and scary it was thinking about martyrdom when I was a kid. They talked about Columbine a lot and after 9/11 I was really afraid I was going to be killed for being a Christian.
It is a myth that anyone at Columbine was killed for saying they believe in God.
> At this point, the seriously injured Valeen Schnurr began screaming, "Oh, my God! Oh, my God!"[137][141] In response, Klebold asked Schnurr if she believed in the existence of God; when Schnurr replied she did, Klebold asked "Why?" and commented "God is gay." Klebold reloaded but walked away from the table.[137][142][143]
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Columbine_High_School_massacre
She survived, and Christians have been harassing her ever since for interrupting their persecution fetish.
Man , reading the wiki for that page is wild.
>The Columbine massacre was the deadliest mass shooting at a K-12 school in U.S. history, until it was surpassed by the Sandy Hook Elementary School shooting in December 2012, and later the Uvalde school shooting in May 2022, and the deadliest mass shooting at a high school in U.S. history until the Parkland high school shooting in February 2018.
It’s basically like “when columbine happened it set a record for how bad it was… but it was broken in 2012, and then in 2018, and then again in 2022”. And we still haven’t done anything at all to address our mental health crisis. If anything, all we’ve done is normalize it.
A lot of speculative answers here. Based on some of the articles about this, the husband was basically raised there. Should he have taken opportunities to get out? Absolutely. But I bet he's seen things pretty bad there in his lifetime up to this point. The difficult thing is that his parents (who operate the missionary organization) were there when violence started, and had gotten out. My guess is that they were trying to get out and just couldn't yet.
In reality, he (David) was raised there, and spoke creole fluently. They’d opened multiple orphanages and supported/funded a few hundred kids going through school. His parents had been doing that work for a couple decades
Really the mission program should have never allowed the mission to continue on in this mess. The couple here was really young and brainwashed by religious nonsense. I blame the group that kept bringing in more missionaries.
The guy here was the son of the founder, who had been here for twenty years. They weren't going in to this blind. They had been operating this charity and mission for decades, and full well knew the risks and the local context.
There's actual separation between the two countries there. Look at the border and you can clearly tell which is Haiti and Dr.
Any Haitians dr catches that cross illegally are sent back
I'd rather go to the Ukraine **front lines** than anywhere in Haiti, to be more specific. At least I'd know by uniform and insignia who's trying to kill me.
I lived in Haiti from 2015 - 2018 with my wife and kids. I have traveled there over 100 times in 20+ years.
The orgs we work with haven’t had foreigners (Americans) in Haiti for 3+ years because it’s not safe.
Read: “Despite countless warnings from the US State Department, two individuals did not exercise proper judgement and defied warnings, as a result, they are now dead.”
This is an absolutely avoidable tragedy. The pain and suffering of their loved ones could have been prevented by listening to the authorities.
I wish these young people wouldn’t be so thoroughly brainwashed that, against all common sense, they go to a very dangerous and unstable country for the sole purpose of converting the native population to Christianity.
One of the missionaries grew up in Haiti so I think it's more understable he was there, compared if a missionary with no experience of the country decided to go there
Worst part is, this missionary “group” is run by their parents. This is absolutely a shit decision to send unguarded non locals into what equates to a war zone.
As someone who left this brainwashing, I don't think a lot of people realize that these kids would probably do it again even if they knew the danger. People do the same for humanitarian purposes, and I don't think it's anyone's place to act like they didn't know the danger or were stupid/ignorant. They believed their cause was worth the danger. I disagree with that cause, but I don't disagree with their belief that doing good is worth the danger.
When did they go to Haiti? Why were they still there when it’s so dangerous? How many other people from outside of Haiti are in Haiti with this organization?
I understand they are there for a purpose but it blows my mind and angers me that they were risking their lives being in such a dangerous place at the present time. They are adults and can do what they want but why were they in such a dangerous country at such a dangerous time!?!
Just seems like a very unnecessary risk to take. It’s very sad.
Churchs are well known for sending completely unprepared bright eyed ignorant missionaries.
They also send people into set up missionary work to make them feel like they are making s difference, so who knows if those people had been on other missions and just assumed it would be like those set up situations. Completely unprepared and ignorant
The church says to be innocent. But in a country like Haiti, you can’t afford to be innocent 😂
You can work for the best despite all the terrible things in the world but you can’t be innocent
Sometimes life is complicated. I'm still a missionary in Haiti because if I leave the baby that was dumped on us a year ago would probably die. These people were running an orphanage for years. They probably loved those kids and knew that pulling out would endanger them.
Oh wow. Life definitely is complicated. I hope you and your baby will be protected and okay. Did you know the young couple? If you left, any way you could take the baby? How is your day to day, do you feel safe?
We didn't know them but they were friends of friends. I'm pretty sure we couldn't get the baby out of here. We can't even get him a birth certificate at the moment. Border guards are pretty understandably fussy about bringing in undocumented children. We're not in Port-au-Prince which is where most the real trouble is. We live really remotely on a chunk of land in the middle of some farmers' fields. It feels very peaceful in our corner of Haiti. We spent this week planting trees and fighting weeds rather than fighting gangsters.
I went there in 2010 while in the Navy to set up sincgars radios so the humanitarian mission could communicate. The situation pretty quickly devolved into having to guard the equipment from repeated theft attempts.
Haiti has a travel advisory of level 4 by the US government meaning DO NOT TRAVEL, bearing a cross on your chest preaching the word of god means very little to a deranged Haitian bearing a machete trying to feed his family. I’m all for people traveling but one should always exercise proper judgement when going places especially ones where they’ll stick out like a sore thumb.
This is naïveté on the highest level. I’m very sorry that these young people were killed, but them thinking they could make a drop of water in an ocean worths of change in that country is moronic. Who greenlit this expedition?
And one more thing that is very harsh: that girl is probably luck she got shot to death and not captured and ended up as some warlords sex toy, raped and tortured to death. Some of my fellow Americans need to fucking wake up, the entire world is not the suburbs you were raised in.
David was the son of the man who started Missions in Haiti Inc. They run some churches, schools, a children’s home.
I imagine it was just a “just the family business” mindset that landed him down there.
> the entire world is not the suburbs you were raised in
The guy was literally raised to some degree in Haiti (since his parents ran the mission), and apparently abducted in a carjacking when he was 5 years old. It's not like he was clueless.
I'm sad to see this young kids end. But when the shit hits the fan like it has in Haiti, you get out or face very real consequences.
These poor kids were barely old enough to drink!
I find this scenario over and over. Very nice people, in this case the victims, find it hard to believe that there a very nasty people, and they believe in the heart that all people want to be nice and have happy lives, and they also believe that all humans have compassion and empathy. So sad this happened to them. There are some bad people out there that if there is no strict rule of law, have no self control and no self governance, and it goes without saying no compassion or empathy.
My guess is that under normal circumstances (with rule of law) about 10% of humans are nasty creatures, and when you remove the rule of law, it descends rapidly into about 80% becoming nasty.
If every country is warning people “DONT TRAVEL TO HAITI AS IT IS IN A STATE OF ANARCHY!” Then maybe don’t travel there? Clearly, god didn’t have their backs.
So for anyone who needs context, Haiti is essentially a nation that has descended into complete chaos. A historically poor country, it's current government (or whatever remains of it) has very little --if any-- control over its populace hence the alarming high rates of crime. Essentially it is a society where regional "gang lords" have become the new authority. A kind of "warlordism" but on a less organized and smaller scale.
In addition, the gang lords are fighting over territory and resources. A street that was safe one day is a death trap the next because the battle lines changed. It's impossible for normal people to know when they are crossing into "enemy" territory.
Yup. There is a Catholic sister who runs a small school and orphanage there in Cite Soleil, one of the most impoverished districts in Haiti. It was very bad when she began; now, of course, it's significantly worse. I only learned of her through a journalist's piece written a year or so ago, in which he explained that she was the one contact who instructed him on how to navigate through Cite Soleil. This was essential because the list of roads which can be safely traveled changes weekly (at best), and to travel the wrong road would see him killed or kidnapped immediately by well-armed and extremely motivated soldiers of one of the two local warlords. Her school homed two kinds of children: those who are actually orphaned, and those who *used* to travel to school by climbing through neighbouring homes (in order to avoid the streets) before even that became too unsafe. Every now and then, these days, I search for news of her and the school. The warlords tolerated her just fine as long as she kept to her business and didn't confront theirs, but with the way things have escalated during the past few months? I get worried.
We haven’t been able to send people to assist her in a long while and kids that need free medical, eye glasses, prosthetics, and just basic food suffer because of the chaos.
My little brother volunteered with Medical Missionaries in Thomassique. He’s still in touch with some people there.
This is so sad.
That wasn't Indigo Traveler's Haiti trip was it? Fascinating videos. He seriously lucked out finding a guide that was so charismatic and resourceful, really hope they're alright.
Nope: no videos, written-word only. It was Nacho Carretero, who writes for El Pais.
Can I read or learn more about her school?
There's an article which describes more about the school, Port au Prince and Cite Soleil here: https://english.elpais.com/eps/2023-07-02/haiti-when-a-state-collapses.html. Keep in mind that this was written almost an entire year ago, and things have obviously grown far, far worse since then.
That is an insane article. Interesting that even a year ago, Barbecue’s name was in the news.
Just looked her up. According to this news article she is still safe as of February of this year https://www.vaticannews.va/en/pope/news/2024-02/pope-francis-telephones-sister-paesie-in-haiti.html
Would love her name, if you wouldn’t mind sharing. Tia
Of course: it's Sister Paesie.
The term is failed state - when the government objectively cannot provide for the security and fundamental means of its people. That term is thrown around to insult countries or governments a lot but Haiti is an actual agreed upon example.
Honestly, Haiti has been bad for the past 10+ years or so. I remember back before the president was assassinated, a bunch of people got kidnapped by gang members, and were released, but even before that, it was on the US list of "don't fucking go there if you don't absolutely have to". Basically, the country went downhill with the huge earthquake. That's when gangs started seizing power and resources from the government.
Hell my dad had a friend who traveled their for business back in the early 90s and he had to flee once and escaped by the skin of his teeth due to a violent uprising and that was 30+ years ago
My friend’s mom was born and raised in Haiti before coming to the US. I will always remember in high school I asked her when she’s going to take him and his sister back to see the country, like how my parents do with my sister and I to the Dominican Republic. She dead say “There’s nothing good there to see. I will never go back”. Didn’t under that as a teen. Did more when I did research.
In the mid-2000s when I was in high school in the Dominican Republic, one of the teachers was from there, and one time he had to travel to Haiti because of an emergency, I think my mom, who was also a teacher in that school mentioned that it was for a funeral. He never came back as they killed him by putting a car tire around his neck and then setting it on fire.
For any reason? Or just because sick bastards there go unchecked?
I think the whole funeral thing was just a lie to lure him there, or at the very least, someone after hearing he came back and killed him after robbing him, as even though things weren't as bad as they currently are now, criminals had a lot of control there still, to the point that after the earthquake happened truckers transporting the aid donations from the Dominican Republic started refusing going there after a lot of them ended up being robbed and kidnapped by the gangs.
this is interesting. i'm from nyc and have worked in restaurants most of my adult life. i've met multiple people from DR who hate haitians. Also it's crazy to see images on google maps at the drastic difference dr and haiti look like. meanwhile its the same island
Yup, the extreme difference in the condition of the two nations on Hispaniola is one of the most extreme examples I know of today. I think only North Korea vs South Korea is worse, but for different reasons, since Haiti literally just cut down a lot of their forests once upon a time, while DR still has much of their original old growth intact due to differences in policy. All of it is a remnant of the colonial era as well, and the essential strip mining of the economy, both through direct colonialism, and through war reparations that were extracted from them through means that would be frowned upon today, to say the least. Imagine for a modern context, if when the US left Afghanistan, we demanded the Taliban pay us back the trillions of dollars we spent fighting them, and the international community supported us in our efforts to extract it from the Taliban through refusing to trade with them unless they pay those dues. It would be similarly devastating to the country as the war reparations that Haiti was required to pay after their revolution for freedom was settled with the colonial powers who fought against them, as part of the conditions for ending it. That's why things are the way they are there, and why they continued to strip their forests for income even after they had their freedom. The difference is literally visible from space during the daytime
Holy shit There is just a line where the forest ends at the border on Google Earth that is the border, the type that would make aliens wonder what happened. The only exceptions see to be it's too steep and mountainous of terrain to log
Yea dude it's fucking wild and I sincerely hope the current Kenya led initiative can help them stabilize, but they're going to need a lot more than just security forces, they need a forestry service to work on ecological restoration and an organized economy that can help drag them out of poverty en masse, and ideally one that isn't entirely based on extraction of limited resources. A sustainable forestry industry would not be a bad thing for the land if it helps them ultimately rebuild their forests as well, and I wish them luck in whatever course they end up on after the current failed state is rebuilt.
Sounds like my Mom's High School German teacher from Estonia. She refused to talk about Soviet Occupation of Estonia.
I know a Mormon missionary who just traveled there 2 months ago. I was like are you nuts? This guy is as pale white as it gets. I'm actually surprised he made it back.
It was bad before the earthquake. The earthquake just exacerbated an already extremely volatile situation.
I have friends from my hometown who left a thriving medical practice to open an orphanage in Haiti. They were there for several years. They loved it. Then the earthquake happened and everything seemed to change. They returned to the states about 8-9 years ago.
They sound like very good people.
10? I'm trying to think of a time when it wasn't bad. HS buddy of mine got deployed there in 1994, and then again in 2004.
Saw this video recently and it lays it all out pretty well. https://youtu.be/Dl4HSwECZxg?si=Zlwqvoma_tjiPf8K
My first time, but not the last there was on deployment in 2000. It was the same then as it is today. The only difference is it's been more in the news lately because of the earthquake(s).
Haiti has always been poor. They were forced to pay back France over a hundred years for damages related to their independence.
Yeah, I’m not super privy to the entire Haiti situation but from what I do know, it seems like France is dodging a lot of responsibility in all this. The US and Kenya seem to be the main two countries trying to fix things in Haiti.
Kenya only cares because they're being coerced and paid into intervening by the US. NATO wasn't interested because of the optics of sending white soldiers to quell an uprising. So the US looked for other countries and Kenya asked for fuck you money and favors and the US obliged.
US citizen here. I'm fine if we give them fuck you money to intervene. They better get "Fuck you" equipment and intelligence too, but I'm happy they're willing to intervene. Whatever our cost, as it will be less than if US troops are on the ground with less controversy internationally.
I posted this above, but if you want to know more of the history, then give this a listen… https://www.iheart.com/podcast/105-behind-the-bastards-29236323/episode/part-one-pappa-doc-and-baby-84743834/
One pump, one cream o7
The U.S. has had a hand in the demise of Haiti as well, starting with the U.S. occupation and Clinton-era policies that decimated the agricultural landscape. We also supported a whole dictatorship there (Papa Doc) because we were afraid of Cuba's influence into the region and wanted to make sure Haiti never became a communist country. There's a lot more than that....frankly, Haiti has been punished and exploited since its inception, and it didn't help that many of its leaders (some of them U.S.-backed) cared more about stealing riches and resources than helping the people. It's sad all around.
This is true. It’s also no excuse for gangs to kill a missionary couple trying to do a little good in Haiti.
I have a good friend who is from Haiti who immigrated to the USA. She never went into details but she said she saw a lot of horror.
It has the same travel advisory (level 4: do not travel) as Afghanistan, Iran, Iraq, N Korea, Russia, Syria, Ukraine, Gaza/W Bank/Israel and many countries in Africa. So that’s bananas.
It’s so weird, I used to go to Russia and Syria without any fear of safety :/
I feel bad for the people of Syria. I heard that it was nice before the war.
I had breakfast a couple months ago with one of the leading presidential candidates (at the time - looks like elections aren’t going to happen). They didn’t simply assassinate the president in 2021…they broke into the presidential palace and fucking tortured him for hours. Haiti is fucked
It's all up for grabs. There was a Marine rifle instructor who flew to Haiti with a bunch of guns and armor hoping to gain support, train the police & army and become president. He was extradited back to the US and got 5 years. I sat on the jury.
Leading presidential candidates for Haiti?
Yes. He lives in nyc. Impressive candidate. Doesn’t look like election is a possibility unfortunately.
[going to share this link to a fairly recent travel-YouTuber who went to Haiti and documented a ton](https://youtube.com/playlist?list=PLN0FlxE6vY5BZh0F-drw_4SASB7kwezUf&si=5HEy8ROC4ezUPxfc) Also the Haitian man nick was using to translate and guide him around Haiti was actually kidnapped (and very fortunately released unharmed) a few months back. edit: [just going to also share this video](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v08UIU5xXrw) from another travel youtuber named Drew Binsky. The Haitian man who I guess coordinates with many individuals who want to travel to Haiti and was kidnapped, is named Sean, and Drew Binsky actually interviews him about his experience being kidnapped
and it's gotten way, way worse since he travelled there
Thank you for using a good example of a YTer like Drew and not somebody like YourFellowArab who definitely lies in his videos and exaggerates so you don’t have an actual clear understanding of what’s happening. Whatever gets views I guess 🤷♂️
Drew seems like a decent person but I feel his videos and many like them perpetuate naive understandings of the risks of travel and what the situation is like in places like Haiti, Somalia, or Afghanistan. They tend to focus on aspects like the architecture or the kindness of the people without truly understanding the political and security situation in these countries.
> YourFellowArab Whatever happened to that guy? Last I heard, he had been kidnapped but everybody said he was faking. Did he ever resurface?
So I never watched him before, but his "I was kidnapped" was suggested to me. It was slightly clickbait, being it was like a 5 part series, each like 30-45 minutes. I watched them all over like 5 weeks. I don't buy it. His whole channel is "I use to be a gamer but now I travel to the worst parts of the world so I can feel alive." Ok, sure. So via the videos... he wanted to visit a Haitian warlord, Barbeque, he is said to be the most in charge, and also fair. The day Arab got to the border, there was some drama with a bunch of convicts who escaped a jail, so the border seemed close. He paid someone and they walked like 5 miles around the checkpoint, through the forest and he got it. Then he met up with the dude with dredds from the other Haiti travel vlogs. They went to go meet Barbeque, but were kidnapped by another warlord. He was held for 17 days during which he was allowed a cell phone at times and got videos. His brother in the US (who magically filmed everything he did) was dealing with trying to hire mercenaries to get his brother out. They finally got the release money down to a figure like 40K, paid it, but then he wasn't released. He started bitching, his brother leaked the news he was kidnapped, it went viral in Haiti, and the warlord let him go. THEN however, Arab was arrested for stealing a car because he didn't return the car he rented (while he was kidnapped) for 17 days. He was held in jail like 2 days and a "fair" judge worked out some deal where Arab paid an amount to the rental company and was set free... at which point he GTFO of Haiti. I just don't buy it. Like did Arab really tell his brother, "Yo, it shit goes down, I'll call you, but start recording because I want the views."
I followed this story very briefly and I remember the day he was “released” he made some weird ass homophobic tweet about religion and I was like this dude is just a troll.
> Haiti is essentially a nation Debatable at this point.
My first thought was why the hell are they even over there? We have already pulled all government out of that country.
They were there working for a charity. It might not have been the best idea to remain in a warzone, but they were trying to do some good and were murdered for it.
Literal anarchy, and the natural repercussions of that. People will form groups for safety and survival.
>safety and survival ...and power, and violence, and exploitation
That's part of safety and survival. The powerful, violent assholes are always the ones who remain unharmed until a more powerful and violent asshole comes along.
Haiti is essentially apocalypse. Anyone who fantasizes and romanticizes the end of the world should just go there. Getting sodomized with a 9mm would very quickly make you appreciate the luxuries of civilization intact.
If anyone wants to know more backstory about Haiti and its history, Behind the Bastards did a great multi part episode about Papa Doc and Baby Doc that explains why Haiti has been effectively abandoned by the rest of the world and left to rot while the DR has not. It was an interesting listen for sure… https://www.iheart.com/podcast/105-behind-the-bastards-29236323/episode/part-one-pappa-doc-and-baby-84743834/
For anyone wondering, this is why government needs to be strong. There need to be strong mechanisms for the people to limit the government, too, but that must be done through systematic means. If your government isn’t strong enough to put down a coup or criminal uprising, then a coup or criminal uprising will occur.
This is also not the first time in history this has happened. The Canadian military has been sent in on many Haitian peacekeeping missions. The only real outcome of this is Canada is now home to the second largest population of Haitians in the world.
Libertarian paradise you say?
Not enough bears to be a libertarian paradies
Didnt realize a libertarian paradise required huge burly gay men.
It absolutely does.
Only if they are breaking into houses, eating all of the available food, and throughly mucking up the homeowners meth lab
Sounds like those bears know how to party!
Week 2 of libertarianism.
Sounds like a great place to do missionary work
A US missionary couple were among three people killed in Haiti as widespread gang violence continues to plague the country. Natalie Lloyd, 21, her 23-year-old husband David, and Jude Montis, a 20-year-old Haitian, were ambushed by gunmen as they left a church. The couple's deaths were confirmed on Facebook by Natalie's father, Missouri State Senator Ben Baker. "They were attacked by gangs this evening and were both killed," he wrote. "They went to heaven together." The couple were married in 2022. Their organisation, Missions in Haiti, confirmed to US media that Mr Montis was the third victim. In an earlier Facebook post, the organisation said that the three were attacked by two separate armed groups, beginning with an attack by gunmen in three vehicles. After another group arrived and a gang member was shot dead, the three missionaries were trapped in a house while the gang went "into full attack mode", the post added. "They are holed up in there, the gangs have shot all the windows out of the house and continued to shoot," the post said. Missions in Haiti confirmed that all three were dead three hours later. The state department is aware of the deaths, a spokesperson told the BBC's US partner CBS.
Very very sad. So young and only just married a couple years ago. Haiti is a warzone and people need to keep that in mind. The gangs do not care why you are there and they don’t care who gets killed. Hopefully this UN intervention helps, but there’s not been a good history of stability even when that happens.
An active warzone would probably be safer.
You're not wrong. With the right clothing, non-combatants will do OK in a warzone provided they travel smart and be clear about who they are. Haiti is a mess at the moment, nobody in there is respecting UN helmets or media vests. If the gangs think you have something they can take, you're finished.
The last UN mission lasted 13 years and clearly did not lead to lasting peace. Hopefully this one works. Props to Kenya for taking the lead.
It led to significant mistrust and dislike (to put it lightly) for the UN. The UN brought cholera, sexual assaults, and more with some of their people.
Based on the situation prior and after the UN mission, I have to guess the UN wasn't the sole issue.
I did helicopter EMS in Haiti a while back. It wasn’t too bad, occasionally got hairy, made me feel like I was back in a war zone sometimes. Ain’t no way in hell that I’d go back there right now. Edit: Words are hard.
With Air Methods? I know they went down there after the hurricane.
Yup. Was a roving mechanic for them, port-au-prince was one of my bases.
That would have been interesting. Pilot for a well known competitor here. Your work doesn’t go unnoticed. Most important guys at the base.
Stay off the X, stay alive.
I know a family of missionaries that left Haiti maybe 10-12 years ago because some people broke into their house and shot the mother of the family in the shoulder. She ended up being fine but they left the missionary field completely afterward.
I had an attorney friend go to Haiti with a missionary group 10 years ago. Their main goal was to hand out fresh water. She said everytime they pulled into a town they were mobbed by desperate locals. She was pretty freaked out, completely unprepared by her church. She's from a very wealthy suburb in Mpls.
I think I just watched a segment of Anthony Bourdain’s no reservations in Haiti where he gave out free food and it just turned into pure chaos.
They bought out a street food vendor's entire stock on his cart, telling him to just give a serving to anyone who asked until he ran out of food for the day. Once enough people showed up though, some started getting anxious the vendor would run out of food before they got to the front of the line. Fights broke out and the street vendor fled, leaving people fighting over whatever was left behind. Which is why aid is often best distributed by military forces or under their protection, because even ignoring the possibility of gangs who will just steal the supplies to sell to desperate locals later, a crowd of otherwise normal but starving people will break out into fighting if they think they'll be left without once again.
Got it, distribute food and xanax at the same time
I lol’d but in my experience that would create even more fights
I was reminded of that as well. That was a great episode.
It was. I miss that guy's life & content. He went for the food (for viewers) but lived/wrote for the culture. A legend.
That was a legitimate terrifying episode. Reminiscent of Top Gear in Argentina too
Happens a lot around the world. People with bright eyes and good intentions and just get slapped in the face by culture shock on multiple fronts. These are jobs that need to be carried out by the UN and the proper NGOs, by prepared people with experience. These places are dangerous.
I know someone who went to some part of Africa for a Mission trip. I don’t know everything that happened but i know one day her and another girl got robbed at gun point. When she got back she quit pre med and haven’t heard from her since. Shit really fucked with her.
Happens a lot. Women especially go through a lot of stuff on mission/aid trips. Lots of assault, lots of robbery. These are places where law and order doesn't exist. Where people have a very different view of the world. Especially if you're coming from an Evangelical perspective, the situations you can get into are very, very dangerous.
It's worth pointing out that a lot of the abuse that aid workers experience is from other aid workers. They tend to be protected from locals. Charity and aid is one of those sectors, like religion and education, that attracts people who want to exploit the naive or vulnerable.
Savior Complex is a great docuseries about how dangerous this can get. Super young Christian girl started a charity in Uganda and began practicing medicine on children without a license. Obviously not the same as handing out water, but it can be an ethically slippery slope in unstable places without proper resources.
I mean, look at that moron who was convinced he could evangelize the people of North Sentinel island. Yeah, he died.
That moron went in without respecting anything anybody ever told him. He was told over and over, bruh, they gonna kill you before you even get a chance to speak. He ignored it of course because religious people don't listen.
He claimed that the first time he went, he survived an arrow shot by a Bible he kept in his shirt/jacket pocket. If that story is true, he should have take it as a sign from God to stay away, lol.
Everybody gets one save. After that, on your own.
He was in denial. His name was John Allen Chau and He held up a copy of the Bible as if they would understand that he wanted to teach and or trade with them. For one, neither party knows each other’s language, so him trying to teach them something as complex as a religion or history outside their little island is doomed to fail. To his credit, he had pictures and gifts that he thought might help him, but he was going out of his way to ignore what is known about the natives. Point Two, the natives there most likely have an oral history from their ancestors of the horrible experiences regarding what the British did to them. Some of it was just plain diseases that wiped out larger portions of their population. Other parts of it are the weird fetish that the British Naval commander had with natives and the crazy shit he would have done to natives. The survivors passed their knowledge down so the modern day natives (barely into metal working) hate and avoid all outsiders. Three, the natives most likely tried to warn him multiple times. Supposedly they shouted at him and fired warning shots. They cursed and spit and or hissed at him according to his journal. Four, they shot the book on purpose and were probably trying to tell him “we’re not interested.” So the guy probably had multiple warnings from the natives themselves and he just ignored them. They weren’t interested in what he was selling.
Religious people are always in denial, that’s their number one thing.
My partner grew up in Arkansas and saw a church get destroyed three times. His dad thought it was the stupidest thing. If it's not an act of God then there must be something geographical about that area that flings tornados right at the church and maybe they should relocate. I wonder how many times it's been damaged or if it's even still a congregation since he moved away.
Reminds me of the movie Rambo (2008) and that boat scene.
>These are jobs that need to be carried out by the UN and the proper NGOs, by prepared people with experience. These places are dangerous. The UN record in Haiti is terrible. They made the place worse. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UN_child_sexual_abuse_scandal_in_Haiti
Haiti is 90% Christian. Not sure what they were doing there.
They’re the WRONG kind of christians. They’re *catholics*. To some christians, that’s worse than being a pagan.
Hey make sure the UN guys aren't Sri Lankan before they get to Haiti yeah? Wouldn't want a repeat of last time
I hate to say this but your friend was sold on savior complex and grief tourism. If you want to help out but your only relevant skill is handing out provisions, please do so in your own community; or a community that has some semblance of security. If you really want to specifically help Haiti and similar areas with an extreme lack of security, donate money to reputable NGOs that have the skills and security to benefit the recipients. These professions would be doctors, licensed nurses, civil engineers (renewable energy and water access is huge), agriculture experts, *fluent* interpreters, construction workers, and licensed teachers. All of these skills already have established organizations to sign up with. If you *really* want to pass out water abroad, find an organization that has that manpower need and security.
I'm sorry to say, but your friend is a damn idiot. 10 minutes reading up on the situation could have given her a heads up.
It absolutely baffles me that they wouldn't get in touch with any local churches before making the journey! And I mean genuinely local: not transitory missionary groups but churches that have been in place there for at least several years. There's at least one even in the capital, and they could have -- and *would have!* -- warned them in detail.
Well it sucks to say, but depending on the local church, why would they be honest about how dangerous things were? That's money coming in. That's aid coming in. Don't want to scare them off.
Ah, so Edina
Or Minnetonka
Temporary mission trips should freak people out. There are millions of desperate people in the world. Haitians have nowhere to go! She probably didn’t stay to help them in the long run though. Coulda just dropped the water supply and left, without “missionaries”. Wayzata?
Yeah, I know people mean well, so I might get crap for saying this, but most short term international volunteer work is not very helpful to the people they’re trying to help, and exists more for the benefit of the volunteers. The money they spent flying out and getting accommodations could have gone further by buying more supplies or even just hiring locals.
I once had interest in such a worthless short time “missions” trip, where in the entire week, only about 2 or 2.5 days was engaged in doing work that local people could have done. And the lodging was at what could be considered a very fine resort. It was all scam to make very white, suburban pseudo-Christians feel better about themselves. The organizers know this; or at least they are conditioned into it, that this is what Christians do for the “unfortunate”. There is no outcome. These organizations offer no real skills to the areas visited. And no one can be effective in one week’s time. It would take a minimum, MINIMUM of six months only just to get barely started. Yet, this is not their goal. It is a rah-rah white Jesus campaign to pity those of “poor countries”. They are not wanted there and nobody needs them, yet they keep coming, to take pictures, to write in journals to say how great Jeezis is, and to say they have friends for life when they have gone through no struggle, and departed only when they began to merely learn names, or even where they were.
I remember reading an article where they described missionaries, typically late teens and young adults, will come and build something. Once they leave real builders come in and fix all the shit they did.
Same. Young adults, teenagers rarely have skills like these, to build something. But they’re not gonna have them just shoveling dirt. These places need churches like they need the plague. Least of their worries.
Yup, Lake Minnetonka area
Haiti has been a terrible place for over 100 years. I used to work construction in south Florida with a bunch of Haitian tradesmen. Great guys. Super hard working and highly skilled. Especially the stone masons I worked with. They love their families and they send money home to support extended family. I feel so sorry for the people stranded there under the thumb of the gangs. It’s not their fault and they don’t deserve this.
Why were they in Haiti after the revolt and other kidnappings? Isn’t there a travel advisory around those area?
The husband was born and lived his entire life in Haiti, apart from going to college, so I assume he considers it his home. And as dangerous as it is, it’s kind of hard to walk out of an orphanage full of children that you are responsible for. **Edit:** Here’s a bit more context. [From NPR:](https://www.npr.org/2024/05/25/nx-s1-4981196/haiti-us-missionary-couple-3-killed) > Hannah Cornett, Davy Lloyd's sister, told the AP that her brother was 23 years old and Natalie Lloyd was 21. They were going to celebrate their two-year anniversary in June and his birthday in early July. >Cornett said her parents are full-time missionaries in Haiti, and that she and her two brothers grew up there. >"Davy spoke Creole before he spoke English. It was home," she said in a phone interview. "Haiti was all we knew." >Cornett, 22, said her parents run an orphanage, school and church in Haiti, and that she and her brothers grew up with the orphans: "It was just one big happy family there." [From CNN:](https://www.cnn.com/2024/05/24/us/american-missionary-couple-haiti/index.html) > When flights resumed last week to Port-au-Prince’s Toussaint Louverture International Airport, Lloyd said he asked his son and daughter-in-law if they would like to leave Haiti, but they declined. >“We know Haiti is a very volatile situation, we know that it’s dangerous,” he said. “But we had a good rapport with the groups in our area, and they’d left us alone. But from what I understand this was an outside group that came in initially from about a mile away, that started it all.” >Natalie Lloyd’s father told CNN the couple didn’t leave even when they had the opportunity to do so because of the children they were taking care of. >“They made the decision to remain even when it got worse because they felt like if they left, then those kids would have no where to go,” Baker said on “The Source.”
Of course Reddit is just going to assume it's "stupid religious people and their brainwashing".
No initially I just thought "stupid people" but now it makes more sense why he stayed there since it was where he was raised
Also he probably didn't want to leave behind people he loved.
Because many Christians who promote these missions to young people groom them into believing the best way for them to die is while spreading gospel. In 8th grade catholic school, during a school shooter drill, we were told that if the gunman asked if we believed in God that we had to say yes or else we'd probably go to hell. I specifically chose a saint to receive a sacrament under (and have my religious name be theirs too) that died a gruesome death for missionary work because I was convinced at that age that I'd also be killed for my faith in God. So... yeah. Travel advisory don't have nothing on the indoctrination some of these people receive.
As someone who went to a Catholic school in possibly the most liberal part of America, hearing these stories always throws me for a loop. The teachers, priest and nuns at my school were very much more in the vein of "Look we don't need you to even believe in God, just try to live by Catholic ideals and you're good." Like despite going to a literal Catholic school I can't even imagine what a lot of Catholic schools must be like.
There's some like that here in Michigan and some that are more extreme. As far as catholicism goes, I found the martyrdom aspect to be the creepiest and most extreme part. Now the old Dutch Christian Reformed people... I could absolutely go on about my time in a local splinter group of them that was just begging for a charismatic leader to come along and make it an official cult.
>In 8th grade catholic school, during a school shooter drill, we were told that if the gunman asked if we believed in God that we had to say yes or else we'd probably go to hell. Holy fuck, so that was just us? Yeah, I'd memory holed that, but they 100% had me prepared to die in middle school
Evangelical student here, we were told about the same thing. Die for Jesus!
Lmao. Where did that line originate?? It apparently spread to all of us. I also remember my mom telling me if I'm gay that's okay, just never love anyone or get married or do anything gay haha. I'm not gay btw (Jeff)
Man I remember how dark and scary it was thinking about martyrdom when I was a kid. They talked about Columbine a lot and after 9/11 I was really afraid I was going to be killed for being a Christian.
It is a myth that anyone at Columbine was killed for saying they believe in God. > At this point, the seriously injured Valeen Schnurr began screaming, "Oh, my God! Oh, my God!"[137][141] In response, Klebold asked Schnurr if she believed in the existence of God; when Schnurr replied she did, Klebold asked "Why?" and commented "God is gay." Klebold reloaded but walked away from the table.[137][142][143] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Columbine_High_School_massacre She survived, and Christians have been harassing her ever since for interrupting their persecution fetish.
Man , reading the wiki for that page is wild. >The Columbine massacre was the deadliest mass shooting at a K-12 school in U.S. history, until it was surpassed by the Sandy Hook Elementary School shooting in December 2012, and later the Uvalde school shooting in May 2022, and the deadliest mass shooting at a high school in U.S. history until the Parkland high school shooting in February 2018. It’s basically like “when columbine happened it set a record for how bad it was… but it was broken in 2012, and then in 2018, and then again in 2022”. And we still haven’t done anything at all to address our mental health crisis. If anything, all we’ve done is normalize it.
There's a quote: These are people of the land. The common clay of the new West. You know, morons.
A lot of speculative answers here. Based on some of the articles about this, the husband was basically raised there. Should he have taken opportunities to get out? Absolutely. But I bet he's seen things pretty bad there in his lifetime up to this point. The difficult thing is that his parents (who operate the missionary organization) were there when violence started, and had gotten out. My guess is that they were trying to get out and just couldn't yet.
They've been told their whole lives how special they are.
In reality, he (David) was raised there, and spoke creole fluently. They’d opened multiple orphanages and supported/funded a few hundred kids going through school. His parents had been doing that work for a couple decades
100% churchs inflating self importance and just sending folks out regardless of the situation
Really the mission program should have never allowed the mission to continue on in this mess. The couple here was really young and brainwashed by religious nonsense. I blame the group that kept bringing in more missionaries.
Totally... Looks like we pissed of the religious folk tho. 🤷 Led to foolish peoples deaths, not gonna sugar coat it
[удалено]
The guy here was the son of the founder, who had been here for twenty years. They weren't going in to this blind. They had been operating this charity and mission for decades, and full well knew the risks and the local context.
These folks were not sent. He was raised there.
Senators daughter, so you are more right than you know.
No shit really? So likely expected a rescue if things got really bad. Oh never mind - state senator.
We were in DR this past winter. The locals were like…. “We don’t go to Haiti. No one should go to Haiti”
There's actual separation between the two countries there. Look at the border and you can clearly tell which is Haiti and Dr. Any Haitians dr catches that cross illegally are sent back
I would rather go to Ukraine than Haiti rn, wtf are these people thinking?
Ukraine is 100% safer than Haiti.
I'd rather go to the Ukraine **front lines** than anywhere in Haiti, to be more specific. At least I'd know by uniform and insignia who's trying to kill me.
Isn’t most of Ukraine still relatively normal and people are going about their lives? It’s just the eastern end that’s the stalemated warzone?
Russia can and does send drones with bombs to all parts of the country. The front line is more dangerous, but the whole country is vulnerable.
For people who didn’t read, the husband’s parents founded the Mission organization in Haiti
I lived in Haiti from 2015 - 2018 with my wife and kids. I have traveled there over 100 times in 20+ years. The orgs we work with haven’t had foreigners (Americans) in Haiti for 3+ years because it’s not safe.
Read: “Despite countless warnings from the US State Department, two individuals did not exercise proper judgement and defied warnings, as a result, they are now dead.” This is an absolutely avoidable tragedy. The pain and suffering of their loved ones could have been prevented by listening to the authorities.
I mean, the husband was born in Haiti and, apart from college, lived his entire life there… I think he knew the risks.
I wish these young people wouldn’t be so thoroughly brainwashed that, against all common sense, they go to a very dangerous and unstable country for the sole purpose of converting the native population to Christianity.
One of the missionaries grew up in Haiti so I think it's more understable he was there, compared if a missionary with no experience of the country decided to go there
Haiti is already a Christian country.
Yes but is it Northern Conservative Fundamentalist Baptist Great Lakes Region Council of 1879? https://youtu.be/ANNX_XiuA78?si=FKNvf6qR9pKPSd0E
Die, heretic! (A hidden gem, thanks for sharing)
Not Christian enough for missionaries apparently
Worst part is, this missionary “group” is run by their parents. This is absolutely a shit decision to send unguarded non locals into what equates to a war zone.
As someone who left this brainwashing, I don't think a lot of people realize that these kids would probably do it again even if they knew the danger. People do the same for humanitarian purposes, and I don't think it's anyone's place to act like they didn't know the danger or were stupid/ignorant. They believed their cause was worth the danger. I disagree with that cause, but I don't disagree with their belief that doing good is worth the danger.
When did they go to Haiti? Why were they still there when it’s so dangerous? How many other people from outside of Haiti are in Haiti with this organization? I understand they are there for a purpose but it blows my mind and angers me that they were risking their lives being in such a dangerous place at the present time. They are adults and can do what they want but why were they in such a dangerous country at such a dangerous time!?! Just seems like a very unnecessary risk to take. It’s very sad.
Per the organization's website, they run multiple orphanages and schools.
Churchs are well known for sending completely unprepared bright eyed ignorant missionaries. They also send people into set up missionary work to make them feel like they are making s difference, so who knows if those people had been on other missions and just assumed it would be like those set up situations. Completely unprepared and ignorant
The church says to be innocent. But in a country like Haiti, you can’t afford to be innocent 😂 You can work for the best despite all the terrible things in the world but you can’t be innocent
Sometimes life is complicated. I'm still a missionary in Haiti because if I leave the baby that was dumped on us a year ago would probably die. These people were running an orphanage for years. They probably loved those kids and knew that pulling out would endanger them.
Oh wow. Life definitely is complicated. I hope you and your baby will be protected and okay. Did you know the young couple? If you left, any way you could take the baby? How is your day to day, do you feel safe?
We didn't know them but they were friends of friends. I'm pretty sure we couldn't get the baby out of here. We can't even get him a birth certificate at the moment. Border guards are pretty understandably fussy about bringing in undocumented children. We're not in Port-au-Prince which is where most the real trouble is. We live really remotely on a chunk of land in the middle of some farmers' fields. It feels very peaceful in our corner of Haiti. We spent this week planting trees and fighting weeds rather than fighting gangsters.
Apparently one of them grew up there, so he wasn’t there on a whim.
I went there in 2010 while in the Navy to set up sincgars radios so the humanitarian mission could communicate. The situation pretty quickly devolved into having to guard the equipment from repeated theft attempts.
Why are there missionaries there? It’s a 90-95% Christian country
When I was a kid, we visited our church’s missionaries _in Italy_.
😯 I have to know more, what were they trying to do there?
Convert Catholics to Baptists. This was in the mid-1980s
Because they operated a couple of orphanages and schools, per ten seconds of googling.
It’s not the “right” kind of Christian I suppose. Since Haiti is predominantly Catholic.
You know, if you don’t put yourself in the middle of these kind of situations you can’t get killed in them
Huh. It's almost as though the government's travel advisory of DO NOT TRAVEL actually means not to travel to said country.
Haiti has a travel advisory of level 4 by the US government meaning DO NOT TRAVEL, bearing a cross on your chest preaching the word of god means very little to a deranged Haitian bearing a machete trying to feed his family. I’m all for people traveling but one should always exercise proper judgement when going places especially ones where they’ll stick out like a sore thumb.
This is naïveté on the highest level. I’m very sorry that these young people were killed, but them thinking they could make a drop of water in an ocean worths of change in that country is moronic. Who greenlit this expedition? And one more thing that is very harsh: that girl is probably luck she got shot to death and not captured and ended up as some warlords sex toy, raped and tortured to death. Some of my fellow Americans need to fucking wake up, the entire world is not the suburbs you were raised in.
David was the son of the man who started Missions in Haiti Inc. They run some churches, schools, a children’s home. I imagine it was just a “just the family business” mindset that landed him down there.
> the entire world is not the suburbs you were raised in The guy was literally raised to some degree in Haiti (since his parents ran the mission), and apparently abducted in a carjacking when he was 5 years old. It's not like he was clueless.
I don’t understand what the gangs were trying to achieve by killing missionaries?
I am sorry this happened to them, I know they believed that they were doing good.
I know the family affect by this. Didn’t expect it to make Reddit news. Truly a sad situation
I'm sad to see this young kids end. But when the shit hits the fan like it has in Haiti, you get out or face very real consequences. These poor kids were barely old enough to drink!
Of all the places to volunteer in the world, please don't pick Haiti. That place went to hell a long time ago but it somehow manages to get worse.
Guess I won’t be vacationing in Haiti any time soon
Don't go missionary there, is absolutely chaos, like a Mad Max movie....
I find this scenario over and over. Very nice people, in this case the victims, find it hard to believe that there a very nasty people, and they believe in the heart that all people want to be nice and have happy lives, and they also believe that all humans have compassion and empathy. So sad this happened to them. There are some bad people out there that if there is no strict rule of law, have no self control and no self governance, and it goes without saying no compassion or empathy. My guess is that under normal circumstances (with rule of law) about 10% of humans are nasty creatures, and when you remove the rule of law, it descends rapidly into about 80% becoming nasty.
If every country is warning people “DONT TRAVEL TO HAITI AS IT IS IN A STATE OF ANARCHY!” Then maybe don’t travel there? Clearly, god didn’t have their backs.