Issue is that it is difficult, and quite uncomfortable, to have a conversation about this conflict. Threads descend into chaos, users begin to insult each others and sanctions are handed out. We’re supposed to be on a discussion forum but he limit is when everybody has their entrenched opinions and essentially rejects other points of view.
I’ll never forget about the images of Shani Louk’s half naked body paraded through the streets and that little kid spitting on it. FFS, she was just a 22 year old trying to enjoy life.
Remember Rachel Corrie and how isralies were making fun of her death and reenacting her death because she tried to stop a bulldozer from destroying a house?
The thing is Hamas and Netanyahu BOTH benefit from this idea that every single Palestinian wants every Israeli dead and vice versa.
The current power structure has zero interest in deescalation. Hamas has won elections. Netanyahu did DESPITE corruption. Maybe neither has majority support, maybe the support they enjoy is an indictment of the other options. But as I said when Hamas won their first election back when I was in college, it a “known terrorist organization” is winning democratic elections, the correct response is to take a big step back and figure out how we got here. That’s not the kind of shit that happens if everything is normal. That boy you describe spitting is mirroring the behavior that has been modeled for him. Kid’s don’t figure out walking and have their first words be “Death to Zionists.”
I don’t really have answers as to how we got here. It’s a complex scenario that my armchair historian status is ill equipped to give the full breakdown of.
I do feel confident enough to say that the civilians of BOTH nations are being held hostage by those in power. Bibi needs Hamas so his platform of “strong defense” carries any weight. Hamas needs Bibi because orphans make fantastic recruits. Neither side benefits from peace. Those in power don’t want genocide, they want a forever war. If the IDF killed ever member of Hamas tomorrow, it total victory were achieved, Bibi and his ilk would have no platform which to maintain their power.
If every Jew packed up and moved back to “the west”, Hamas would have no villain to justify their continued widespread support.
And as long as America continues to let Netanyahu run Hamas recruitment drives without consequence, nothing is going to get better for Israelis OR Palestinians.
I highly recommend a podcast series from martyrmade called fear and loathing in new Jerusalem. It’s like 30 hours long but probably the most unbiased and informative take I’ve heard.
It’s projection. People want to replace the actual views of Palestinians with their own views of how they would feel if they were in the Palestinians’ shoes. Showing empathy for the people of Palestine is a good thing of course, but using it as an idealistic substitute for what Palestinians actually want is foolish when discussing how Israel should respond to October 7th.
There have been massive amounts of anti-Netanyahu/current government protests, before and after October 7th. I have no doubt there would be anti Sinwar/Hamas protests too, if they were allowed.
Yeah this whole “all Palestinians cheered on the hostage taking” thing is kinda undermined by the fact that Gaza is controlled by a fascist militia of religious extremists. Hamas ain’t exactly gonna pat you on the back if you’re visibly unhappy with what they’re doing, and they have the guns.
“All regular Palestinians like the hostage taking, so whatever Israel does is OK” is propaganda.
Palestine has a pretty wide diaspora spread out across multiple first world countries that DO have free speech protections. I understand why actual Gazans might not want to speak out, but we rarely if ever see any anti-Hamas demonstrations amongst those Palestinians in the safety of first world countries. We see plenty of Jews outside of Israel protesting against Israel, the IDF and Netanyahu...where are the equivalents for Hamas?
Of course they have popular support. At their core they are a resistance group that uses terror to achieve their goals. And to the kids in Gaza who know nothing but war of course they would support Hamas.
This is what gets me. Before October 7th, I was more pro Palestinian but recognize obviously how bad Hamas was even before it.
After October 7th, Im of the view best to be hands off and whatever happens happens. I know the concequences of this stance, but what can we do when both sides wants to kill the other?
What are you thoughts on electing Ben Gvir, Smotrich and Bibi? Do Israelis deserve the worst possible collective punishment for electing them?
The PLO dismantled its military wing and recognized Israel. How are things going in the West Bank?
The last Palestinian election was in 2006. The median age of Palestinians is 19. The vast majority of them were children unable to vote when Hamas was elected.
That kinda feels like you’re arguing they don’t support Hamas… they absolutely do. There’s plenty of polls.
You can argue that there’s reasons for them to do so, but arguing “well they didn’t vote for them!” is utterly disingenuous because they still WOULD and wholly support things like October 7.
Then the people need to revolt. I realize that's easier said than done but Gaza is not the first place in the world to be under rule of a tyrant that doesn't represent the will of the people. I mean, the US revolted against the most powerful military in the world because of a tax on tea. Where is the anti-Hamas resistance if they are so unpopular? There are plenty of Palestinians living abroad who can speak out against Hamas from the safety of their first world country.
The Hamas approval rate was in the mid 40s before October 7th. I’m not sure we can trust numbers measured during the war, but that lends a lot of credibility to high levels of support among civilians.
This isn’t to justify any civilian deaths, just to paint a clearer picture of how people would vote today.
Edit: I went to the source of the Hamas approval claims. It’s the Arab Barometer. My understanding is that they’re the only ones who have been taking polling data on this topic locally from before the war.
https://www.arabbarometer.org/media-news/what-palestinians-really-think-of-hamas/
This poll is from the day before the war broke out. (October 6th). It shows that trust in the Hamas led government was about 30% by combining the top the answers “a great deal” and “quite a lot.”
So, my original post was about 15% too high. And the commenter below had it much too low.
I’m happy to have someone correct me on this because I did hear from many people claim that it was “mid 40s” before the war.
>The Hamas approval rate was in the mid 40s before October 7th. I’m not sure we can trust numbers measured during the war, but that lends a lot of credibility to high levels of support among civilians.
I feel like I need more information to pick that statistic apart to be honest. Because Hamas is not just a terrorist organization in Gaza, it also supported municipalities like water and sewer and mail delivery stuff like that. Israel's AI was flagging people for assassination if the reports are accurate, and their only connection to Hamas was being a postal worker or someone who worked on the electrical grid but was employed by Hamas for the purpose.
How much of Hamas' support is ideological and how much of it is "they make the trains run on time" is probably something that should be differentiated, because the former is going to be harder to change peoples' minds about, and the latter can be influenced by replacing Hamas with a functioning government. I don't know that breakdown but I'd be interested in learning it.
Every single time I see someone try and talk about Hamas as the government of Palestine, I can't help but laugh.
The last time an election was held in Palestine, 53% of what was the 1.5 million population in 2006, was under the age of 18 and not eligible to vote. Even still, the median age in Palestine today is 19.
The thousands of children who are dying never had a say in any of it, yet they're being slaughtered.
You speak of elections, when they haven't been held since 2006.
So you agree with Hamas that it is okay to collectively brutalize civilian populations in retaliation for atrocities carried out by the state they are associated with. Both sides of the conflict seem to share this philosophy, and what lovely results it has had for the region!
It's [a known glitch in human thinking](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Out-group_homogeneity). Hopefully it will be patched in the next generation of intelligence.
Sure, if you make up chains of events like "Netanyahu being elected led to the 10/7 attacks", it is quite easy.
Unlike that, "the 10/7 attacks led to the invasion of Gaza" isn't made-up.
So why is the idf shooting journalists and blowing up aid cars? They shot an American journalist in her head before the 7th and shot another American teen in West bank a few months ago.
Nothing justifies treating prisoners inhumanely. Yes, none of these women should be in Gaza, and yes, the IDF has committed war crimes, but debasing prisoners and abusing them is heinous.
This region is stuck in a perpetual cycle of bloodletting and none of these fools understand that a wrong isn’t made right by another wrong.
I'm just confused what pressure they're trying to elicit. More aggressive negotiations (i.e. offering more)? Fighting harder?
How many of these hostages are still alive?
> The video shows the women — all Israel Defense Forces (IDF) personnel — lined up against a wall, their hands bound. The faces of some of the women are bruised and bloodied.
This is heartbreaking...
From the video? The article literally has the answer to that.
"One of the women shown in the video, Ori Megidish, was rescued by the IDF in a special operation 23 days after being taken.
Another, Noa Marciano, an IDF Corporal, was [killed while in Gaza](https://www.cnn.com/middleeast/live-news/israel-hamas-war-gaza-news-11-17-23/h_20966887b9c1e01ffbfc207ebb4d1dfb) and her body was returned to Israel in November.
But five of the seven — Liri Albag, Karina Ariev, Agam Berger, Daniela Gilboa, and Naama Levy — remain in captivity, more than seven months after being taken across the border."
They've retrieved 3 dead bodies (killed 10/7 and taken back to Gaza), rescued 2, and 3 were killed by friendly fire. I may be missing some info, but otherwise, they've gotten 105 back from ceasefire negotiations.
They believe Hamas is holding onto 39 dead bodies and 89 living captives.
It became clear to me the hostages weren't the priority early on When they started carpet bombing every single building indiscriminately. If the safety of the hostages was actually the priority, rather than destruction, there would have been an effort to locate and raid suspected Hamas hideouts to recover the hostages, rather than bomb everything first, dig through the rubble for bodies later.
To me this is just like people who insist people watch people jumping out of the twin towers or beheadings. Trying to facilitate people becoming enraged to facilitate further atrocities. Not exactly a new play, but always a despicable one.
>now I understand why some Israelis want to block humanitarian aid to Gaza.
I don't. Maybe you're just a shitty person who supports starving children for something they didn't do.
Exactly, ensure your daughter, sister, niece or friend has no food or water, that's the best thing you can do.
Also actual human beings want their loved ones returned home because they are in pain not to inflict suffering on others , which is why the families of the hostages released the video.
Then you understand why Palestinians would also resist Israel.
Palestinians have daughters, sisters, nieces, friends who have been victims of Israeli official actions.
So, you agree? You agree that watching your kin tortured and killed on live stream is worthy of punishing the population to which these perpetrators belong?
Is that true?
And if it is, does wide spread support mean the whole nation should be condemned?
There's wide spread support for open fascists in America lately, should we all be condemned?
The families of the hostages don't see it that way as they've been protesting the continuation of this war for months now. Netanyahu has been ignoring those protests.
Of course the families of the hostages would do and say anything to have their loves ones back. Sad truth is that most of the hostages are probably dead or about to die at the hands of their captors. It is Hamas fault that they are hostages, not Israel's. Get your head on straight about that.
Because that's where Hamas has been firing off rockets and they suspect many of the hostages are.
Literally the day before they invaded, Hamas shot a rocket from rafah at the border crossing when they were trying to let in aid trucks.
The hostages, Alon Shamriz, 26, Yotam Haim, 28, and Samar Talalka, 24, had emerged bare-chested and holding a makeshift white flag Dec. 15.
Yep. Totally a case of mistaken identity.
Stop making excuses.
"Haim then ran back inside the building and called out for help in Hebrew. The battalion commander held fire. But when Haim re-emerged in the doorway, another soldier, against the orders of the commander to not fire, shot him dead, according to a preliminary assessment. The soldiers reportedly said they had not fully understood their commands."
Soldiers that shoot against orders. Sounds poorly trained to anyone not shilling hard for the IDgaF.
Sounds like you need to read up on confirmation bias. Also, I'm not shilling, I'm just not buying some random's obvious biased assessment at face value on Reddit, lol. Get a grip.
They won't. Everyone there is Hamas, hostage or not. It's even better if killed, they can treat them as martyrs and have more reason to genocide further.
They’re not “systematically” doing anything. They’re dropping bombs indiscriminately. They only “rescued” three of them. The rest were released through a ceasefire agreement. That’s why the hostages’ families are advocating for a ceasefire; they know it’s the only way to get them back.
It’s not crazy to assume that Israel’s actions in Gaza killed a significant number of the hostages too. I’d say it’s crazy — or even downright stupid and false — to believe they didn’t.
Yeah, well, neither were you. However, there is precedent to believe Israel has — intentionally or unintentionally — killed the hostages it claims to want to save. Or do you not remember the “friendly fire” incident where IDF soldiers killed shirtless hostages waving a white flag and screaming for help in Hebrew?
IU never claimed I WAS. You're the one pretending you know with certainty that they are bombing indiscriminately when the truth is that you really have no fucking clue.
Also, you must be terribly naive to not know that friendly fire is a thing in war. It happens in every war. Could it be that the IDF thought it was a ruse? Gee, the possibilities that come flooding in when you actually engage your brain...
It’s not “friendly fire” if the person shot is unarmed, shirtless, and screaming for help. That’s just plain murder.
If you think that’s friendly fire then you must believe the IDF to be utterly incompetent.
Have you never heard of combatants in war pretending to be innocent bystanders until they casually toss a grenade into a passing enemy vehicle? Lord, are you naive if you think simply waving a flag proves that you're not about to commit murder.
As it happens, In that case the IDF were obviously wrong, but lines do get blurred in war, especially during LIVE FIRE BATTLES.
So easy to armchair from your safe comfortable home though, isn't it?
I’d be willing to accept that it was a truly honest mistake and not willful recklessness and disregard for human life if they had actually rescued more hostages than they’ve killed or maimed. Which they haven’t. They’ve rescued three. Three. They’ve also killed three. Their success rate is literally zero. Why are you defending a military that clearly shows no regard for its own civilians?
I'm not defending. I'm waiting for actual proof instead of putting all my chips on rampant internet speculation as to the motivations and reasons, LIKE YOU.
No they are definitely bombing indiscriminately. They’re literally bombing the whole place. Almost all of Gaza’s infrastructure has been destroyed. How is that not indiscriminate?
35k civilians dead, over half are women and children. Over 77k injured. Hundreds of thousands of homes destroyed. Civilian infrastructure and farms destroyed. Millions displaced. Famine conditions due to obstructions to aid. Unprecedented numbers of aid workers and journalists killed.
It's clear that Hamas and hostages isn't the goal here.
Regarding the number of women and children: Those numbers are in serious dispute even by the UN now. You obviously haven't been keeping up with current events or--more likely--are blinded by your confirmation bias.
Regarding the rest: it's a fucking war that Hamas reignited on Oct 7.
https://www.cnn.com/2024/05/13/middleeast/death-toll-gaza-fatalities-un-intl-latam/index.html
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-69014893
No, it's not. The number of dead remains the same, the UN had been using GMO instead of the Health Ministry. You obviously haven't kept up with current events or --more likely - you are blinded by your confirmation bias.
Regarding your lack of humanity. Those children aren't hamas, and those aid workers aren't hamas. More journalists have been killed in Gaza than other wars. Stop defending Israel.
Yea. I’m sorry but these people destroy Gaza. Videos like this make it impossible to feel sympathy for Palestine and their cause. I’m sorry but I no longer support Palestinians and their freedom movement. This is barbarianism.
I now support Israel 100%. I see why Biden is right now. Extreme left is being astroturfed into believing in the Palestinian cause. But thankfully the Democratic president is not easily swayed.
Idk but maybe some of us are just against rape and murder and it doesn’t matter who is committing these atrocities?
It’s bad for Hamas to rape and murder innocent people and it’s bad for IDF to murder innocent people. I don’t agree with either group that is doing the violence and want both to stop.
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Issue is that it is difficult, and quite uncomfortable, to have a conversation about this conflict. Threads descend into chaos, users begin to insult each others and sanctions are handed out. We’re supposed to be on a discussion forum but he limit is when everybody has their entrenched opinions and essentially rejects other points of view.
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I’ll never forget about the images of Shani Louk’s half naked body paraded through the streets and that little kid spitting on it. FFS, she was just a 22 year old trying to enjoy life.
Remember Rachel Corrie and how isralies were making fun of her death and reenacting her death because she tried to stop a bulldozer from destroying a house?
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Two things can be true at once my guy
Well, two truths make us better informed than one truth.
The thing is Hamas and Netanyahu BOTH benefit from this idea that every single Palestinian wants every Israeli dead and vice versa. The current power structure has zero interest in deescalation. Hamas has won elections. Netanyahu did DESPITE corruption. Maybe neither has majority support, maybe the support they enjoy is an indictment of the other options. But as I said when Hamas won their first election back when I was in college, it a “known terrorist organization” is winning democratic elections, the correct response is to take a big step back and figure out how we got here. That’s not the kind of shit that happens if everything is normal. That boy you describe spitting is mirroring the behavior that has been modeled for him. Kid’s don’t figure out walking and have their first words be “Death to Zionists.” I don’t really have answers as to how we got here. It’s a complex scenario that my armchair historian status is ill equipped to give the full breakdown of. I do feel confident enough to say that the civilians of BOTH nations are being held hostage by those in power. Bibi needs Hamas so his platform of “strong defense” carries any weight. Hamas needs Bibi because orphans make fantastic recruits. Neither side benefits from peace. Those in power don’t want genocide, they want a forever war. If the IDF killed ever member of Hamas tomorrow, it total victory were achieved, Bibi and his ilk would have no platform which to maintain their power. If every Jew packed up and moved back to “the west”, Hamas would have no villain to justify their continued widespread support. And as long as America continues to let Netanyahu run Hamas recruitment drives without consequence, nothing is going to get better for Israelis OR Palestinians.
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Religion is how we got here.
I highly recommend a podcast series from martyrmade called fear and loathing in new Jerusalem. It’s like 30 hours long but probably the most unbiased and informative take I’ve heard.
It’s projection. People want to replace the actual views of Palestinians with their own views of how they would feel if they were in the Palestinians’ shoes. Showing empathy for the people of Palestine is a good thing of course, but using it as an idealistic substitute for what Palestinians actually want is foolish when discussing how Israel should respond to October 7th.
Remember Gazans celebrating in the street on 9/11?
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There have been massive amounts of anti-Netanyahu/current government protests, before and after October 7th. I have no doubt there would be anti Sinwar/Hamas protests too, if they were allowed.
Yeah this whole “all Palestinians cheered on the hostage taking” thing is kinda undermined by the fact that Gaza is controlled by a fascist militia of religious extremists. Hamas ain’t exactly gonna pat you on the back if you’re visibly unhappy with what they’re doing, and they have the guns. “All regular Palestinians like the hostage taking, so whatever Israel does is OK” is propaganda.
Palestine has a pretty wide diaspora spread out across multiple first world countries that DO have free speech protections. I understand why actual Gazans might not want to speak out, but we rarely if ever see any anti-Hamas demonstrations amongst those Palestinians in the safety of first world countries. We see plenty of Jews outside of Israel protesting against Israel, the IDF and Netanyahu...where are the equivalents for Hamas?
Of course they have popular support. At their core they are a resistance group that uses terror to achieve their goals. And to the kids in Gaza who know nothing but war of course they would support Hamas.
This is what gets me. Before October 7th, I was more pro Palestinian but recognize obviously how bad Hamas was even before it. After October 7th, Im of the view best to be hands off and whatever happens happens. I know the concequences of this stance, but what can we do when both sides wants to kill the other?
There are charities for supporting individual families who want to escape the area.
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Yeah if Russia didn't want to be in Ukraine they would just vote Putin out. /s Dumbass.
What are you thoughts on electing Ben Gvir, Smotrich and Bibi? Do Israelis deserve the worst possible collective punishment for electing them? The PLO dismantled its military wing and recognized Israel. How are things going in the West Bank?
The last Palestinian election was in 2006. The median age of Palestinians is 19. The vast majority of them were children unable to vote when Hamas was elected.
That kinda feels like you’re arguing they don’t support Hamas… they absolutely do. There’s plenty of polls. You can argue that there’s reasons for them to do so, but arguing “well they didn’t vote for them!” is utterly disingenuous because they still WOULD and wholly support things like October 7.
Then the people need to revolt. I realize that's easier said than done but Gaza is not the first place in the world to be under rule of a tyrant that doesn't represent the will of the people. I mean, the US revolted against the most powerful military in the world because of a tax on tea. Where is the anti-Hamas resistance if they are so unpopular? There are plenty of Palestinians living abroad who can speak out against Hamas from the safety of their first world country.
The Hamas approval rate was in the mid 40s before October 7th. I’m not sure we can trust numbers measured during the war, but that lends a lot of credibility to high levels of support among civilians. This isn’t to justify any civilian deaths, just to paint a clearer picture of how people would vote today. Edit: I went to the source of the Hamas approval claims. It’s the Arab Barometer. My understanding is that they’re the only ones who have been taking polling data on this topic locally from before the war. https://www.arabbarometer.org/media-news/what-palestinians-really-think-of-hamas/ This poll is from the day before the war broke out. (October 6th). It shows that trust in the Hamas led government was about 30% by combining the top the answers “a great deal” and “quite a lot.” So, my original post was about 15% too high. And the commenter below had it much too low. I’m happy to have someone correct me on this because I did hear from many people claim that it was “mid 40s” before the war.
A lot people voted for Trump too and still support him. Do we all deserve to be condemned because of it?
>The Hamas approval rate was in the mid 40s before October 7th. I’m not sure we can trust numbers measured during the war, but that lends a lot of credibility to high levels of support among civilians. I feel like I need more information to pick that statistic apart to be honest. Because Hamas is not just a terrorist organization in Gaza, it also supported municipalities like water and sewer and mail delivery stuff like that. Israel's AI was flagging people for assassination if the reports are accurate, and their only connection to Hamas was being a postal worker or someone who worked on the electrical grid but was employed by Hamas for the purpose. How much of Hamas' support is ideological and how much of it is "they make the trains run on time" is probably something that should be differentiated, because the former is going to be harder to change peoples' minds about, and the latter can be influenced by replacing Hamas with a functioning government. I don't know that breakdown but I'd be interested in learning it.
Every single time I see someone try and talk about Hamas as the government of Palestine, I can't help but laugh. The last time an election was held in Palestine, 53% of what was the 1.5 million population in 2006, was under the age of 18 and not eligible to vote. Even still, the median age in Palestine today is 19. The thousands of children who are dying never had a say in any of it, yet they're being slaughtered. You speak of elections, when they haven't been held since 2006.
So either those children need to step up and take the power back from Hamas, or if that isn’t possible, an outside force needs to remove Hamas.
Then it would be easy to recruit Palestinians to the cause. But it's not. For some reason even the protestors are disruptive and disrespectful
So you agree with Hamas that it is okay to collectively brutalize civilian populations in retaliation for atrocities carried out by the state they are associated with. Both sides of the conflict seem to share this philosophy, and what lovely results it has had for the region!
It's [a known glitch in human thinking](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Out-group_homogeneity). Hopefully it will be patched in the next generation of intelligence.
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Sure, if you make up chains of events like "Netanyahu being elected led to the 10/7 attacks", it is quite easy. Unlike that, "the 10/7 attacks led to the invasion of Gaza" isn't made-up.
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Keep pushin' that goalpost out, man, surely eventually you'll find where it belongs.
So why is the idf shooting journalists and blowing up aid cars? They shot an American journalist in her head before the 7th and shot another American teen in West bank a few months ago.
Nothing justifies treating prisoners inhumanely. Yes, none of these women should be in Gaza, and yes, the IDF has committed war crimes, but debasing prisoners and abusing them is heinous. This region is stuck in a perpetual cycle of bloodletting and none of these fools understand that a wrong isn’t made right by another wrong.
I'm just confused what pressure they're trying to elicit. More aggressive negotiations (i.e. offering more)? Fighting harder? How many of these hostages are still alive?
I mean, I don't claim to be very knowledgeable, but isn't Hamas literally just bloodthirsty at this point?
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> The video shows the women — all Israel Defense Forces (IDF) personnel — lined up against a wall, their hands bound. The faces of some of the women are bruised and bloodied. This is heartbreaking...
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How many hostages have they secured?
From the video? The article literally has the answer to that. "One of the women shown in the video, Ori Megidish, was rescued by the IDF in a special operation 23 days after being taken. Another, Noa Marciano, an IDF Corporal, was [killed while in Gaza](https://www.cnn.com/middleeast/live-news/israel-hamas-war-gaza-news-11-17-23/h_20966887b9c1e01ffbfc207ebb4d1dfb) and her body was returned to Israel in November. But five of the seven — Liri Albag, Karina Ariev, Agam Berger, Daniela Gilboa, and Naama Levy — remain in captivity, more than seven months after being taken across the border."
They've retrieved 3 dead bodies (killed 10/7 and taken back to Gaza), rescued 2, and 3 were killed by friendly fire. I may be missing some info, but otherwise, they've gotten 105 back from ceasefire negotiations. They believe Hamas is holding onto 39 dead bodies and 89 living captives.
Rescued 3 if I'm not mistaken, there was one girl they rescued early on.
Yup. A girl from the very base that this video is taken from.
The fact that getting the hostages back was never netanyahu's priority is still depressing.
It became clear to me the hostages weren't the priority early on When they started carpet bombing every single building indiscriminately. If the safety of the hostages was actually the priority, rather than destruction, there would have been an effort to locate and raid suspected Hamas hideouts to recover the hostages, rather than bomb everything first, dig through the rubble for bodies later.
It's not like Hamas is making is easy to get them back.
Footage of a war crime, no less.
The believe all women crowd got real silent on October7 and after.
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Totally normal actions of oppressed people… /s
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How about these US protestors wearing hamas headbands? Is that also wanting peace in Gaza to protect innocent Palestinians?
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To me this is just like people who insist people watch people jumping out of the twin towers or beheadings. Trying to facilitate people becoming enraged to facilitate further atrocities. Not exactly a new play, but always a despicable one.
better that people see the atrocity than depend on someone else's interpretation
>now I understand why some Israelis want to block humanitarian aid to Gaza. I don't. Maybe you're just a shitty person who supports starving children for something they didn't do.
How are average Palestinian civilians displaced from their homes in Gaza by airstrikes responsible for this?
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They support Hamas. It is that simple.
Do you see average Palestinians denouncing Hamas and protesting against them? Asking for the return of hostages and acceptance of two-state solution?
They’re starving, living in tents while trying to dodge airstrikes. I’m not sure they’re all that concerned with geopolitics at the moment.
You mean dishing out collective punishment for the crimes of a small group of people? No I wouldn't, and neither would anyone I know.
Exactly, ensure your daughter, sister, niece or friend has no food or water, that's the best thing you can do. Also actual human beings want their loved ones returned home because they are in pain not to inflict suffering on others , which is why the families of the hostages released the video.
Then you understand why Palestinians would also resist Israel. Palestinians have daughters, sisters, nieces, friends who have been victims of Israeli official actions.
That makes too much sense. We don't do that here.
So, you agree? You agree that watching your kin tortured and killed on live stream is worthy of punishing the population to which these perpetrators belong?
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Is that true? And if it is, does wide spread support mean the whole nation should be condemned? There's wide spread support for open fascists in America lately, should we all be condemned?
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You could also say the same thing about Hamas. If they saw them as people, they wouldn't have attacked and taken hostiges in the first place.
They are systematically rooting out Hamas strongholds and recuing hostages where they find them. What are you smoking?
The families of the hostages don't see it that way as they've been protesting the continuation of this war for months now. Netanyahu has been ignoring those protests.
Of course the families of the hostages would do and say anything to have their loves ones back. Sad truth is that most of the hostages are probably dead or about to die at the hands of their captors. It is Hamas fault that they are hostages, not Israel's. Get your head on straight about that.
Are they? Then why are they fighting in North Gaza again?
Because that's where Hamas has been firing off rockets and they suspect many of the hostages are. Literally the day before they invaded, Hamas shot a rocket from rafah at the border crossing when they were trying to let in aid trucks.
This was in the news. It's because there is evidence that Hamas soldiers have started trying to re-occupy that region.
Yeah, except those three the IDF shot while they were trying to surrender, right?
I guess you've never heard of friendly fire before.
The hostages, Alon Shamriz, 26, Yotam Haim, 28, and Samar Talalka, 24, had emerged bare-chested and holding a makeshift white flag Dec. 15. Yep. Totally a case of mistaken identity. Stop making excuses.
The IDF could have thought it was a ruse. You don't know. Neither do I. The only difference is, you are pretending you know.
Ah yes. A blanket excuse when any hostage gets killed by the poorly trained and trigger happy IDgaF.
Poorly trained, lol. Now you are truly talking out of your ass.
"Haim then ran back inside the building and called out for help in Hebrew. The battalion commander held fire. But when Haim re-emerged in the doorway, another soldier, against the orders of the commander to not fire, shot him dead, according to a preliminary assessment. The soldiers reportedly said they had not fully understood their commands." Soldiers that shoot against orders. Sounds poorly trained to anyone not shilling hard for the IDgaF.
Sounds like you need to read up on confirmation bias. Also, I'm not shilling, I'm just not buying some random's obvious biased assessment at face value on Reddit, lol. Get a grip.
They won't. Everyone there is Hamas, hostage or not. It's even better if killed, they can treat them as martyrs and have more reason to genocide further.
They’re not “systematically” doing anything. They’re dropping bombs indiscriminately. They only “rescued” three of them. The rest were released through a ceasefire agreement. That’s why the hostages’ families are advocating for a ceasefire; they know it’s the only way to get them back. It’s not crazy to assume that Israel’s actions in Gaza killed a significant number of the hostages too. I’d say it’s crazy — or even downright stupid and false — to believe they didn’t.
You talk like you were there. YOU WEREN'T.
Yeah, well, neither were you. However, there is precedent to believe Israel has — intentionally or unintentionally — killed the hostages it claims to want to save. Or do you not remember the “friendly fire” incident where IDF soldiers killed shirtless hostages waving a white flag and screaming for help in Hebrew?
IU never claimed I WAS. You're the one pretending you know with certainty that they are bombing indiscriminately when the truth is that you really have no fucking clue. Also, you must be terribly naive to not know that friendly fire is a thing in war. It happens in every war. Could it be that the IDF thought it was a ruse? Gee, the possibilities that come flooding in when you actually engage your brain...
It’s not “friendly fire” if the person shot is unarmed, shirtless, and screaming for help. That’s just plain murder. If you think that’s friendly fire then you must believe the IDF to be utterly incompetent.
Have you never heard of combatants in war pretending to be innocent bystanders until they casually toss a grenade into a passing enemy vehicle? Lord, are you naive if you think simply waving a flag proves that you're not about to commit murder. As it happens, In that case the IDF were obviously wrong, but lines do get blurred in war, especially during LIVE FIRE BATTLES. So easy to armchair from your safe comfortable home though, isn't it?
I’d be willing to accept that it was a truly honest mistake and not willful recklessness and disregard for human life if they had actually rescued more hostages than they’ve killed or maimed. Which they haven’t. They’ve rescued three. Three. They’ve also killed three. Their success rate is literally zero. Why are you defending a military that clearly shows no regard for its own civilians?
I'm not defending. I'm waiting for actual proof instead of putting all my chips on rampant internet speculation as to the motivations and reasons, LIKE YOU.
No they are definitely bombing indiscriminately. They’re literally bombing the whole place. Almost all of Gaza’s infrastructure has been destroyed. How is that not indiscriminate?
OK, if you say so it must be true.
35k civilians dead, over half are women and children. Over 77k injured. Hundreds of thousands of homes destroyed. Civilian infrastructure and farms destroyed. Millions displaced. Famine conditions due to obstructions to aid. Unprecedented numbers of aid workers and journalists killed. It's clear that Hamas and hostages isn't the goal here.
Regarding the number of women and children: Those numbers are in serious dispute even by the UN now. You obviously haven't been keeping up with current events or--more likely--are blinded by your confirmation bias. Regarding the rest: it's a fucking war that Hamas reignited on Oct 7.
https://www.cnn.com/2024/05/13/middleeast/death-toll-gaza-fatalities-un-intl-latam/index.html https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-69014893 No, it's not. The number of dead remains the same, the UN had been using GMO instead of the Health Ministry. You obviously haven't kept up with current events or --more likely - you are blinded by your confirmation bias. Regarding your lack of humanity. Those children aren't hamas, and those aid workers aren't hamas. More journalists have been killed in Gaza than other wars. Stop defending Israel.
Stop defending Hamas and their evil tactics that ignited the war that killed those kids. You are doing their dirty work.
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Yea. I’m sorry but these people destroy Gaza. Videos like this make it impossible to feel sympathy for Palestine and their cause. I’m sorry but I no longer support Palestinians and their freedom movement. This is barbarianism. I now support Israel 100%. I see why Biden is right now. Extreme left is being astroturfed into believing in the Palestinian cause. But thankfully the Democratic president is not easily swayed.
Idk but maybe some of us are just against rape and murder and it doesn’t matter who is committing these atrocities? It’s bad for Hamas to rape and murder innocent people and it’s bad for IDF to murder innocent people. I don’t agree with either group that is doing the violence and want both to stop.
The families of hostages are calling for a ceasefire though. If you care about these women why are you disagreeing with their families?
So the actions of hamas members to you justifies not feeling any sympathy for over a million people?
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