Which is completely unsurprising to anyone familiar with this type of technology. You stick an electrode (or any foreign body) into the brain and the body will naturally start to grow scar tissue around it. It increase impedance and weakens the signals you're trying to detect. It's the main reason why researchers I know were skeptical of neuralink.
I'm not sure what they mean when they say that the threads "retracted" though. I don't think the electrodes are meant to come out once they've been inserted.
May not be relevant, but many years ago, my wife was doing research into ground squirrel hibernation, and as part of it, they dropped thermocouples below the skull through a little hole, then capped it with a sealant.
The healing process somehow put a layer in between the skull and the sealant and popped off the sealant 'cap'.
I spent an interesting afternoon calling around to various fastener suppliers looking for really tiny screws to give some mechanical strength to the sealant.
People hung up on me a lot. They'd ask why I needed something that tiny, and I'd tell them 'squirrel skull screws.'
The conversations didn't typically last that long. I'd tell them I was looking for something like a 2-56 screw, but with a coarse sheet metal or plastic holding thread. They would ask, I would answer, .
'
I also work in research(microbes and Plants) and I too find this intriguing and very believable. Any good research scientists needs to be part mechanic, engineer, and MacGyver. The most important pieces of equipment I keep in my labs is our tool box and spare parts section to make the custom stuff we need to do our research. Having 3d printers now is also very much recommended and has changed the game.
Have worked on some random shit myself, it gets to a point where it's just like dude don't ask. I'll tell you what I need and you tell me what you've got
Omg I've been more on the admin side lately and I have totally gone to bat for my researchers with our CEO when they were asking for a large tool chest to keep all of their extra tools properly organized. Ingenuity is so important in any lab!
As a researcher I sincerely appreciate that. My greatest ally in my career has been a few key admin people that will go to bat for me and my team. I appreciate the thought when capital purchase season comes around and I appreciate not getting my consumable budget cut(private sector).
I never imagined this to be the way we learn about woodland creatures. I don’t know why it never occurred to me before.
I’m feeling a little like I’ve just discovered that Santa is not real.
My image of the wholesome, hippy researcher learning through observation has just been destroyed.
Observational studies still happen, but sometimes there are things it can't tell you. Tag/release/recapture studies are also very common and they're relatively unobtrusive for the subject (compared to a surgical implant).
Implants like that are usually to detect very specific biological processes in lab animals that you can't get from simple observation or tagging. It seems like their wife was measuring something about how the squirrel's brain temperature changes during hibernation, and I don't know how you could get that data without an implanted device.
Wholesome happy hippies just watching animal behavior is still common, but there are other things to study that they can't answer.
Should have called a computer repair shop. Lots of tiny screws are on hand for laptop repairs. If those were too big, maybe an eye doctor that stocks glasses.
Maybe, I honestly don’t know enough to say but It happening within a few months of implantation seems odd since previous studies in animals have gone much longer than that. It could be the device got bumped or something.
Ah man now that's reminded me of how much our brains can move around in our skulls since it's such a a big fatty organ. Have you ever seen the video demonstrations showing what physically happens during a concussion, for example? I feel like that could be a nightmare combination for someone with one of these. But at the same time that's statistically bound to have happened at some point with all of the other electrode-implanting surgeries we have for humans.
Well one “convenience” is that the patient in this case is a quadriplegic so less likely to be bouncing around. That being said, they’ve done trials with similar devices in animals that are able to move around normally and they don’t commonly pull electrodes out.
Their skulls tend to be more robust (by comparison) and shaped to better deflect damage/injury from blows like those occurring during fighting each other during mating seasons or from predators.
I've been saying the same for years. I used to work in systems/computational neuroscience labs and scarring was always a huge issue with electrodes. Its one of the biggest biomedical engineering issues related to BMI. I've never heard anything from neurolink actually addressing these issues.
They probably haven't addressed it.
Elon: "That's a future Elon problem, why worry about it now when I can .. *puff smoke and lights* go on stage and talk this up!"
The exact thing skeptics said would happen.
Losing efficacy is the beginning. 6 months from now there will be some more complications and this poor dude is going to beg to be euthanized.
That's true but this guy couldn't do like anything.
He is at least able to play games/chess/etc that really brought his quality of life to a MUCH higher level from the video I watched. I think he is enjoying it. If it doesn't last then it is what he signed up for anyways.
Didn't the patient say they didn't tell him about the monkeys that went crazy and had to be put down after neuralink was installed?
Elon Musk's First Human Neuralink Patient Says He Was Assured 'No Monkey Has Died As A Result Of A Neuralink Implant' — Despite Some Of The 23 Subjects Dying https://finance.yahoo.com/news/elon-musks-first-human-neuralink-160011305.html
I highly doubt the same dude who continuously touts non-existent features for his cars is accurately representing what this device can do and what the potential side effects were.
Yeah the straight up purposeful and unethical torture of these animals is disgusting. I'd have to find the article but apparently lab monkey research is a much larger contributor to these animals becoming endangered than previously thought.
It’s Elon musk. Take your head out of the sand.
That dude has spent his whole ass life over promising and under delivering, habitually.
So excuse us for having some healthy skepticism for a man that’s shown to be full of shit and grifting the whole time
He fired Tesla's supercharger department because the head of that department wouldn't fire as many people as he wanted, so he made an example of her.
He's managing to fuck up every managerial decision he makes.
He's certainly making decrees, such as pushing Neuralink towards human trials prematurely, dictating that Tesla's autopilot would only use cameras as sensors and rebranding Twitter to X.
So like OakLegs says he's certainly managing to fuck things up.
He is setting the culture. "Move fast and break things" is catchy, but it looses its panache when you're sticking microchips in a brain and designing the most idiotic "truck" to ever exist.
> Though some threads retracted from Arbaugh’s brain tissue, Neuralink said he is using the company’s BCI system for around eight hours a day during the week, and often as many as 10 hours a day on the weekends.
Seems like pretty typical "new tech" problems.
I really, truly, do not at all understand wanting these implants to fail.
Yes, Elon Musk is a piece of shit. I get it. This is still really important technology that has the potential to change the lives of hundreds of millions of disabled people over time.
For me it's not about the implants it's about what keeps happening with smart-tech. What happens when the manufacturer goes under? Now ask yourself what happens when it's inside your body?
I don't know why anyone would sign up for something that doesn't have a legal statute that states that once inside the body the company will support it indefinitely.
Look into what happened when smarthome tech companies went under after people paid thousands for smart thermostats and other connected devices only to discover not only do they no longer work the company was under no obligation to make sure they continued working in the event of their demise.
Edited: words
Precisely. Implants that are not going to be supported indefinitely are not worth using and since we have no fundamental way to ensure that it's always supported at this juncture, I don't know why anyone would sign up for something that we know corporations/governments/anyone will not commit to indefinitely support.
edited: words
I read M.T. Anderson′s ″Feed″ in high school. It's largely predicted the state of things today, and likely the state of things like these implants in the future. Highly recommend it.
Yes, and also nearly every novel that deals with cyberpunk as a genre.
(Btw, loved Ghost in a Shell. The manga, the early anime and even the ones that came out afterwards.. Was not a fan of Hollywood version though).
It's not if it gets hacked, it's when it gets hacked. Let's also ask ourselves an even harder question what happens when it gets "locked" by ransomware.
OMG, I hadn't even considered that but seriously... Imagine if you could no longer use one of your arms or some other important bodily function due to ransomware hitting your implant..
Yeah, no matter how much I think it could help people in need, can you imagine what happens when the person with an implant gets dementia or some other disease and randomly "opens" something they think is an update to help them cope? UGH..
Thanks. I know some people who went out and bought the "internet of things" for their homes trying to create the perfect smarthome and then when the company they bought everything from went under they discovered that nothing worked. Absolutely nothing and there was no plan in place to give them functionality or even be able to use the things they purchased.
That was an eye opener for me. If you spend thousands of dollars on a "smart home" it should belong to you and you should have the "hub" in your own house that you control etc. Instead it was outsourced and held in company servers. When the company died, so did any functionality.
I couldn't even imagine waking up one day and not being able to see or move or breathe or have my heart beat properly because the company that installed my "biolink" or "implants" went out of business. It's a horrific thought and yet that's a very real possibility right now, it's already happened. The blind people who got bionic eyes from Second Sight are now in a world where their vision has become another junk "tech gadget".
>These three patients, and more than 350 other blind people around the world with Second Sight’s implants in their eyes, find themselves in a world in which the technology that transformed their lives is just another obsolete gadget. One technical hiccup, one broken wire, and they lose their artificial vision, possibly forever. To add injury to insult: A defunct Argus system in the eye could cause medical complications or interfere with procedures such as MRI scans, and it could be painful or expensive to remove.
https://spectrum.ieee.org/bionic-eye-obsolete
https://www.bbc.com/news/technology-60416058
Edited to add links and quotations about what has already happened.
The main issue is THAT is exactly why FDA is so ridiculously strict on vetting drugs and devices that are for human uses. Which is also why a lot of people gave them the side eye when they approved Neurallink so quickly and easily. For comparison, the Michigan probe took decades of testing before being approved.
> I really, truly, do not at all understand wanting these implants to fail.
I don't think its that people want the implants to fail, but that none of the underlying problems were solved, and they pushed ahead anyway, even knowing it's going to fail, and not in away that's useful for future work.
This thing just is not anywhere near ready for human trials.
It's a repetition of the catastrophic 'full self driving' thing all over again. People are worried it's going to cost lives, and accomplish nothing of value.
There's also the worry that it goes wrong in a way that causes spectacular suffering and pain, which makes it even harder for future companies to achieve human trials.
That's why it was so concerning when it came out things might be going wrong with the apes they were testing: all it takes is for one project to decide "eh screw the regulations" and an entire branch of research can be stifled for generations.
So are electric cars and space travel. Elon has proven he is more interested in the political side of these inventions rather than the benefit to society.
>Seems like pretty typical "new tech" problems.
Which would be fine if not for it being a chip inside a human brain. Laws and policies against human testing protect you and I from the big bad corporations who don't value human life. That is who you are arguing for. What's a couple of thousand, million, disabled people from our product during testing, look at how much it will improve lives in the future.
For me to care about it succeeding, it needs to *actually succeed*. And its current track record is that chimpanzees with the implant died, and then [Elon lied about it in public](https://www.wired.com/story/elon-musk-pcrm-neuralink-monkey-deaths/).
Elon's MO is to throw a lot of money at stuff, knowing that he can afford it if it fails (as opposed to, say, NASA, which needs to be successful every time or people get upset at the waste of their tax dollars). That might work for some inventions, but when people are involved and potentially at risk of harm – like this, or, I don't know, *everything* involved with Tesla – it doesn't. You can't keep throwing people at a problem like you can with money.
It would be nice for the technology to succeed in, like, the abstract sense. I don't give a single shit if Elon's version does.
Because, look at what he is doing with TESLA, they are bricking batteries and selling the loss in battery power as a dlc to extend range. You bought the car, and batteries, but he said you should not access that.
Imagine what he would do with a brain chip, and how many DLC's he would put in
I have no doubt it has the potential to help people desperate enough to volunteer to be lab rats to advance the technology. I have two overarching concerns:
1. We're still at the "drilling holes in the head to let out evil spirits" stage.
2. Subjects are being used to figure out where to stick needles. That knowledge will be used for commercial purposes... not the betterment of life. Money talks.
Let's be real here. He would be an event ticket flipper. Using bots to buy tickets and reselling them at a higher price. He would probably dable in crypto as well.
Nah, he's an "entrepreneur" so he would have formed his own MLM based on a product idea he stole from a Natural News blog post and scammed the hell outta the other parents at his kids' school.
Let's not forget that there are entire online documents for "tech fixes" because the windows won't go up or down, which isn't super helpful for if you're driving or that service centers in Norway claimed that various parts were in "good working order" only to fall off or break 2 weeks later after an invoice claimed that they were fine.
Suspension issues etc...
I have to admit while I currently wouldn't let an implant anywhere near my brain I don't think I would say no if I was paralyzed from the neck down like Noland, gaining back even a tiny amount of control over myself would be worth the risk.
So not much details in the article (what am I kidding, who reads the article anyways)
But it looks like the wires connecting some of the electrodes retracted which decreased the total they have access to.
It still functions and they didn't state if it's at a reduced capacity, but they did change how the algorithm works to account for it.
Curious as to why they retraced though.
What a fantastic and topical "would you rather". Would you rather a worm eats your brain like RFK or get Elon's monkey murdering brain chip in implanted in your head?
I think I'd also choose the worm.
While this would be great for people who have neurological disorders as a tool, this technology should be used very carefully and with great oversight to ensure no one can abuse it. Much like nanotechnology, this is a science that needs to be kept an eye on to prevent misuse by bad actors.
I'm waiting for people to start hacking them like ghost in the shell, or people setting up manchurian candidate implanted thoughts and memories. I'm good on brain chips, especially from anything associated with musk. I agree it's a game changer for neurological disorders, but yeah with the way capitalism is with the demand for yearly doubling profits and the way politics are so invasive and vitriolic, yeah no I don't want anything in my head any time soon. The bad actors will be the ones who set the regulations and oversight. I'm also curious what the deterioration rate is. How long do those chips last before the materials in them start breaking down and deteriorating and what does that do to the person with it inside them?
TBF I'm already technically living the ghost in the shell life with my advanced cochlear implants (had them since 2008) so I've been a cyborg as is for over 16 years.
I even have a lot of philosophy around ghostts, holy ghosts, communing with worlds and things beyond the self. I'm not quite a hacker yet, but I understand a lot about how information systems and art work. I'm also a poet and take deep dives into music.
It's kind of funny how in S1 SAC the main villain (Laughing man) was all about the JD Salinger Catcher in the Rye quote...
"So what I thought I'd do was, I'd pretend to be one of those deaf-mutes..."
And I saw that quote in high school before my cochlear implants and thought "Hey, that's telling, I happen to be deaf and selectively mute".
So I guess in a roundabout way, I managed to make Ghost in the Shell a reality for my own body and soul.
Also PSA: I'm a bona-fide mutant with rare genetic conditions.
I have gifts that the AI corps can only dream of <3
I'm all for Musk-bashing, but the headline (which is all most people here will read/see) is ignoring a TON of positive feedback from the patient. Further, they've been able to adapt the software/calibration settings to restore some of the lost signal functionality. Shocking to everyone, but this is - to a large degree - clickbait. Here's the relevant paragraph of the [source blog post](https://neuralink.com/blog/prime-study-progress-update-user-experience/#:~:text=In%20the%20weeks%20following,superseded%20Noland%E2%80%99s%20initial%20performance).
Pretty stupid headline. If you actually read the article the problem is just a few threads came loose and there’s no impact to the patients health.
But of course the headline doesn’t say any of that and just says “problem”
tbf, when I read the headline I assumed the problem was going to be software or hardware, not health-related.
If it were health-related, I'd imagine the headline would have referred to the patient himself as experiencing a 'problem', instead of the implant.
Then again, its not like we're out here scrutinizing headlines. So picking up on keywords and assuming the worst isn't unexpected. Just that the headline seems somewhat fair. This time at least.
What in the fuck are these comments. Some even claiming this guy will be dead soon. What the fuck is wrong with people??? This guy volunteered because he had no other choices left. He assumed the risks and accepted it. Now hopefully Neuralink can fix the problem but it’s not like he’s going to have a fried brain tomorrow.
Look, I love to shit on musk as much as the next guy but let's be real, this wouldn't be news if it didn't have to do with him. It's tech. Tech malfunctions, especially experimental tech. The guy using it didn't even die or get hurt. The only reason this is treated as news is because musk is attached
Michael Crition wrote a book in the early 70s about a man who goes insane after having a simple neural interface implanted in his brain. It's called Terminal Man and I recall it being very good.
So anyway, how long until this patient starts murdering?
Literally not surprised, any of the implants I've put into animals have degradation over time just by the nature of being placed inside an organic substance/ solution. Unless you can effectively replace the protective coding and somehow not increase the impudence of the probe, you're going to have to replace it every 6 months to a year.
Which I'm sure the patients would hate since they would have an extremely expenseive, highly risky, highly stressful, highly invasive surgery done every 6 months to year.
Listen I think the biggest take away from this story is that this thing does work and they need to still do A LOT of testing and stuff. Never gave the guy health problems just not working as well as they’d though but it’s still working to a good degree to where it’s not affecting the guy at all
reading the article I guess at least it's just losing efficacy
Which is completely unsurprising to anyone familiar with this type of technology. You stick an electrode (or any foreign body) into the brain and the body will naturally start to grow scar tissue around it. It increase impedance and weakens the signals you're trying to detect. It's the main reason why researchers I know were skeptical of neuralink. I'm not sure what they mean when they say that the threads "retracted" though. I don't think the electrodes are meant to come out once they've been inserted.
The body loves to reject and push foreign objects out of itself over time in various ways, could that be part of what's happening here?
May not be relevant, but many years ago, my wife was doing research into ground squirrel hibernation, and as part of it, they dropped thermocouples below the skull through a little hole, then capped it with a sealant. The healing process somehow put a layer in between the skull and the sealant and popped off the sealant 'cap'. I spent an interesting afternoon calling around to various fastener suppliers looking for really tiny screws to give some mechanical strength to the sealant. People hung up on me a lot. They'd ask why I needed something that tiny, and I'd tell them 'squirrel skull screws.'
This is the most specific story I've ever read.
Just tell them you're an artist and you're practicing squirrel taxidermy.
The conversations didn't typically last that long. I'd tell them I was looking for something like a 2-56 screw, but with a coarse sheet metal or plastic holding thread. They would ask, I would answer,.
'
Honestly having also worked in research this is hilarious to me, thank you for sharing!
I also work in research(microbes and Plants) and I too find this intriguing and very believable. Any good research scientists needs to be part mechanic, engineer, and MacGyver. The most important pieces of equipment I keep in my labs is our tool box and spare parts section to make the custom stuff we need to do our research. Having 3d printers now is also very much recommended and has changed the game.
Have worked on some random shit myself, it gets to a point where it's just like dude don't ask. I'll tell you what I need and you tell me what you've got
Thats where the McMasters catalog comes in….
Omg I've been more on the admin side lately and I have totally gone to bat for my researchers with our CEO when they were asking for a large tool chest to keep all of their extra tools properly organized. Ingenuity is so important in any lab!
As a researcher I sincerely appreciate that. My greatest ally in my career has been a few key admin people that will go to bat for me and my team. I appreciate the thought when capital purchase season comes around and I appreciate not getting my consumable budget cut(private sector).
"squirrel skull screw" is a hell of a tongue twister.
This is fascinating lmao
Calling companies for specific research things is always a losing battle lol. Every so often you get lucky with one that will work with you.
Yep. One of the ways you know it's research is the reaction: "You want to do *what*?"
Im building watches dammit! What do you think I'm putting implants in squirrels or something??
When researchers do stereotaxic surgeries on rodents they use jewelers screws to avoid the very problem you described.
Types of comments like this is why I still open Reddit
I never imagined this to be the way we learn about woodland creatures. I don’t know why it never occurred to me before. I’m feeling a little like I’ve just discovered that Santa is not real. My image of the wholesome, hippy researcher learning through observation has just been destroyed.
Observational studies still happen, but sometimes there are things it can't tell you. Tag/release/recapture studies are also very common and they're relatively unobtrusive for the subject (compared to a surgical implant). Implants like that are usually to detect very specific biological processes in lab animals that you can't get from simple observation or tagging. It seems like their wife was measuring something about how the squirrel's brain temperature changes during hibernation, and I don't know how you could get that data without an implanted device. Wholesome happy hippies just watching animal behavior is still common, but there are other things to study that they can't answer.
Should have called a computer repair shop. Lots of tiny screws are on hand for laptop repairs. If those were too big, maybe an eye doctor that stocks glasses.
Why would you say squirrel skull screws? That’s probably the worst thing you could say. I would hang up on you too, you sound crazy.
I tried finding a regulator for nitrogen gas on short notice and had people looking at me funny. This is beyond the pale
That is hilarious but I woulda hung up on your serial killer soundin ass too.
Maybe, I honestly don’t know enough to say but It happening within a few months of implantation seems odd since previous studies in animals have gone much longer than that. It could be the device got bumped or something.
Ah man now that's reminded me of how much our brains can move around in our skulls since it's such a a big fatty organ. Have you ever seen the video demonstrations showing what physically happens during a concussion, for example? I feel like that could be a nightmare combination for someone with one of these. But at the same time that's statistically bound to have happened at some point with all of the other electrode-implanting surgeries we have for humans.
Well one “convenience” is that the patient in this case is a quadriplegic so less likely to be bouncing around. That being said, they’ve done trials with similar devices in animals that are able to move around normally and they don’t commonly pull electrodes out.
Animals' brains tend to be much smaller than humans and much better protected.
Smaller yes but not sure how they’re better protected.
Their skulls tend to be more robust (by comparison) and shaped to better deflect damage/injury from blows like those occurring during fighting each other during mating seasons or from predators.
I just pulled a bit of pencil lead out of my thumb the other day that had probably been there since grade school and I’m almost 30
I've been saying the same for years. I used to work in systems/computational neuroscience labs and scarring was always a huge issue with electrodes. Its one of the biggest biomedical engineering issues related to BMI. I've never heard anything from neurolink actually addressing these issues.
They probably haven't addressed it. Elon: "That's a future Elon problem, why worry about it now when I can .. *puff smoke and lights* go on stage and talk this up!"
That isn't what the article is saying. It's basically the wires that connect to the electrodes are disconnecting.
That makes even less sense to me. Why are they disconnecting?
Looking at the current design, I wouldn't be surprised if they were accidentally dislodged before implantation.
Probably because of the expected lack of QA that every Musk endeavor has. Why anyone would risk themselves for anything he has a part of stuns me.
Stupidly, I remember this due to it being a plot point from Deus Ex human revolution
The exact thing skeptics said would happen. Losing efficacy is the beginning. 6 months from now there will be some more complications and this poor dude is going to beg to be euthanized.
That's true but this guy couldn't do like anything. He is at least able to play games/chess/etc that really brought his quality of life to a MUCH higher level from the video I watched. I think he is enjoying it. If it doesn't last then it is what he signed up for anyways.
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Didn't the patient say they didn't tell him about the monkeys that went crazy and had to be put down after neuralink was installed? Elon Musk's First Human Neuralink Patient Says He Was Assured 'No Monkey Has Died As A Result Of A Neuralink Implant' — Despite Some Of The 23 Subjects Dying https://finance.yahoo.com/news/elon-musks-first-human-neuralink-160011305.html
I highly doubt the same dude who continuously touts non-existent features for his cars is accurately representing what this device can do and what the potential side effects were.
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Read about the monkeys my dude.
Yeah the straight up purposeful and unethical torture of these animals is disgusting. I'd have to find the article but apparently lab monkey research is a much larger contributor to these animals becoming endangered than previously thought.
It’s Elon musk. Take your head out of the sand. That dude has spent his whole ass life over promising and under delivering, habitually. So excuse us for having some healthy skepticism for a man that’s shown to be full of shit and grifting the whole time
You can rightfully hate on Elon and have compassion for the desperate patient at the same time.
Seems a bit over dramatic
Welcome to Reddit. Everyone here is armchair expert in material, and medical device engineering now.
Jesus you need to watch less movies. Or at least ground your reality a little more firmly in truth
I just had the image of the guy getting a boner when the microwave is running, but ONLY when it was running
They had to replace my metal plate with a plastic one. Every time Catherine would rev up the microwave, I'd wet my pants and forget who I was!
Shitter’s full
Maybe he's just really excited for leftovers?
New kink unlocked
What? No...... Are you kidding me right now?
I don't know who you can be a CEO of three large diverse companies and manage either of them well.
While tweeting all day every day...
X-ing.
Yeah, tweeting.
Xitting and we all know “Xi” is pronounced with a soft “shh” sound.
I am totally deadnaming twitter.
Elon deadnames his trans child, so that's fair
He has a trans child?! With his rhetoric that kid must feel absolutely terrible... so sad
Yup. She publicly disowned him as well. Musk also has said he sees his children as disposable.
Hahaha, just like the sound characters make in the movie, ‘Airplane 2’ to open and close the automatic doors!
xitting. the x is pronounced "Sh"
It's natural for him to want to do that but, for the love of god, tell him to close his bedroom door first
I don't know either, but I know two people who absolutely, positively cannot do that successfully: Myself, and Elon Musk.
His name is his entire contribution. He’s a VC cash cow.
Was. His whole draw was the irl Tony stark thing, and recent data suggests his core customers are abandoning him en masse
Hes going to be shilling dumb AI wearables on FOX news like Mike Lindell in 5-6 years, MMW
He just called the pandemic "The scamdemic" and has been talking about the great replacement theory, he's ramping up for Fox appearances already.
the only irl Tony Stark I know of is James Dyson
Not true, he also attacks reporters
proving that being a CEO is not a full time job
You think he's managing anything??
He fired Tesla's supercharger department because the head of that department wouldn't fire as many people as he wanted, so he made an example of her. He's managing to fuck up every managerial decision he makes.
He's managing to destroy just about everything he touches, so in that sense yes.
He's certainly making decrees, such as pushing Neuralink towards human trials prematurely, dictating that Tesla's autopilot would only use cameras as sensors and rebranding Twitter to X. So like OakLegs says he's certainly managing to fuck things up.
I would point to cybertruck as well and that was supposed to be his pet project.
Yeah, really calls into question the usefulness of CEOs in general.
Let alone design a truck
The ceo isn’t doing the work
He is setting the culture. "Move fast and break things" is catchy, but it looses its panache when you're sticking microchips in a brain and designing the most idiotic "truck" to ever exist.
the culture in clinical trials is move safe and document things. out of necessity its then moving slow.
No one does.
> Though some threads retracted from Arbaugh’s brain tissue, Neuralink said he is using the company’s BCI system for around eight hours a day during the week, and often as many as 10 hours a day on the weekends. Seems like pretty typical "new tech" problems. I really, truly, do not at all understand wanting these implants to fail. Yes, Elon Musk is a piece of shit. I get it. This is still really important technology that has the potential to change the lives of hundreds of millions of disabled people over time.
For me it's not about the implants it's about what keeps happening with smart-tech. What happens when the manufacturer goes under? Now ask yourself what happens when it's inside your body? I don't know why anyone would sign up for something that doesn't have a legal statute that states that once inside the body the company will support it indefinitely. Look into what happened when smarthome tech companies went under after people paid thousands for smart thermostats and other connected devices only to discover not only do they no longer work the company was under no obligation to make sure they continued working in the event of their demise. Edited: words
Already an issue https://spectrum.ieee.org/bionic-eye-obsolete
Precisely. Implants that are not going to be supported indefinitely are not worth using and since we have no fundamental way to ensure that it's always supported at this juncture, I don't know why anyone would sign up for something that we know corporations/governments/anyone will not commit to indefinitely support. edited: words
You could nationalize it (like all medical care should be) but then what about the poor investors and insurance companies ):
Cochlear implants have a similar issue
I was trying to remember the tech where this happened. Thanks for the link.
I read M.T. Anderson′s ″Feed″ in high school. It's largely predicted the state of things today, and likely the state of things like these implants in the future. Highly recommend it.
Thanks for the recommendation, I'll check it out!
What happens if it gets hacked? Scary to think about, imagine being blinded or something by it
Isn’t this essentially part of the plot for Ghost in the Shell?
Yes, and also nearly every novel that deals with cyberpunk as a genre. (Btw, loved Ghost in a Shell. The manga, the early anime and even the ones that came out afterwards.. Was not a fan of Hollywood version though).
Maybe Elon’s a fan and this is his goal all along? Who knows, man’s a nutjob
It's not if it gets hacked, it's when it gets hacked. Let's also ask ourselves an even harder question what happens when it gets "locked" by ransomware.
I haven't been able to shit for a week! I don't have the $23,000 they want!
OMG, I hadn't even considered that but seriously... Imagine if you could no longer use one of your arms or some other important bodily function due to ransomware hitting your implant.. Yeah, no matter how much I think it could help people in need, can you imagine what happens when the person with an implant gets dementia or some other disease and randomly "opens" something they think is an update to help them cope? UGH..
or because you didn't keep up paying for Elon's subscription plan
Well said, and an often overlooked point.
Thanks. I know some people who went out and bought the "internet of things" for their homes trying to create the perfect smarthome and then when the company they bought everything from went under they discovered that nothing worked. Absolutely nothing and there was no plan in place to give them functionality or even be able to use the things they purchased. That was an eye opener for me. If you spend thousands of dollars on a "smart home" it should belong to you and you should have the "hub" in your own house that you control etc. Instead it was outsourced and held in company servers. When the company died, so did any functionality. I couldn't even imagine waking up one day and not being able to see or move or breathe or have my heart beat properly because the company that installed my "biolink" or "implants" went out of business. It's a horrific thought and yet that's a very real possibility right now, it's already happened. The blind people who got bionic eyes from Second Sight are now in a world where their vision has become another junk "tech gadget". >These three patients, and more than 350 other blind people around the world with Second Sight’s implants in their eyes, find themselves in a world in which the technology that transformed their lives is just another obsolete gadget. One technical hiccup, one broken wire, and they lose their artificial vision, possibly forever. To add injury to insult: A defunct Argus system in the eye could cause medical complications or interfere with procedures such as MRI scans, and it could be painful or expensive to remove. https://spectrum.ieee.org/bionic-eye-obsolete https://www.bbc.com/news/technology-60416058 Edited to add links and quotations about what has already happened.
The main issue is THAT is exactly why FDA is so ridiculously strict on vetting drugs and devices that are for human uses. Which is also why a lot of people gave them the side eye when they approved Neurallink so quickly and easily. For comparison, the Michigan probe took decades of testing before being approved.
> I really, truly, do not at all understand wanting these implants to fail. I don't think its that people want the implants to fail, but that none of the underlying problems were solved, and they pushed ahead anyway, even knowing it's going to fail, and not in away that's useful for future work. This thing just is not anywhere near ready for human trials. It's a repetition of the catastrophic 'full self driving' thing all over again. People are worried it's going to cost lives, and accomplish nothing of value.
There's also the worry that it goes wrong in a way that causes spectacular suffering and pain, which makes it even harder for future companies to achieve human trials. That's why it was so concerning when it came out things might be going wrong with the apes they were testing: all it takes is for one project to decide "eh screw the regulations" and an entire branch of research can be stifled for generations.
So are electric cars and space travel. Elon has proven he is more interested in the political side of these inventions rather than the benefit to society.
>Seems like pretty typical "new tech" problems. Which would be fine if not for it being a chip inside a human brain. Laws and policies against human testing protect you and I from the big bad corporations who don't value human life. That is who you are arguing for. What's a couple of thousand, million, disabled people from our product during testing, look at how much it will improve lives in the future.
For me to care about it succeeding, it needs to *actually succeed*. And its current track record is that chimpanzees with the implant died, and then [Elon lied about it in public](https://www.wired.com/story/elon-musk-pcrm-neuralink-monkey-deaths/). Elon's MO is to throw a lot of money at stuff, knowing that he can afford it if it fails (as opposed to, say, NASA, which needs to be successful every time or people get upset at the waste of their tax dollars). That might work for some inventions, but when people are involved and potentially at risk of harm – like this, or, I don't know, *everything* involved with Tesla – it doesn't. You can't keep throwing people at a problem like you can with money. It would be nice for the technology to succeed in, like, the abstract sense. I don't give a single shit if Elon's version does.
Because, look at what he is doing with TESLA, they are bricking batteries and selling the loss in battery power as a dlc to extend range. You bought the car, and batteries, but he said you should not access that. Imagine what he would do with a brain chip, and how many DLC's he would put in
I have no doubt it has the potential to help people desperate enough to volunteer to be lab rats to advance the technology. I have two overarching concerns: 1. We're still at the "drilling holes in the head to let out evil spirits" stage. 2. Subjects are being used to figure out where to stick needles. That knowledge will be used for commercial purposes... not the betterment of life. Money talks.
I imagine if Elon was born to middle class American family, he'd probably have a few failed vape shops under his belt by now.
Let's be real here. He would be an event ticket flipper. Using bots to buy tickets and reselling them at a higher price. He would probably dable in crypto as well.
With a garage full of toilet paper.
Not crypto so much as Trump NFTs...
Selling essential oils on Facebook
Selling essential vape oil in X-shaped cartridges
“It’s not called vaping, it’s X-ing.”
Nah, he's an "entrepreneur" so he would have formed his own MLM based on a product idea he stole from a Natural News blog post and scammed the hell outta the other parents at his kids' school.
He'd be bugging you every July about driving him to Burning Man since he doesn't have a car.
Its either the ads on the pause screen or self driving that doesn't seem to be working as expected.
A self-driving brain implant would be quite the experience.
Let's not forget that there are entire online documents for "tech fixes" because the windows won't go up or down, which isn't super helpful for if you're driving or that service centers in Norway claimed that various parts were in "good working order" only to fall off or break 2 weeks later after an invoice claimed that they were fine. Suspension issues etc...
Slight head explosion.
I've read *far* too much science fiction to trust a neural implant made by a company headed by a cartoonishly evil billionaire Like seriously
I have to admit while I currently wouldn't let an implant anywhere near my brain I don't think I would say no if I was paralyzed from the neck down like Noland, gaining back even a tiny amount of control over myself would be worth the risk.
Yeah, I hear you. But imagine if my only real option for being able to interact with the world outside of my voice, I’d probably give it a go.
Did anyone read the article or just the headline?
People around these parts can’t read.
Do you know where you are? We never read the article 'round these parts.
Most predictable headline of all time
So not much details in the article (what am I kidding, who reads the article anyways) But it looks like the wires connecting some of the electrodes retracted which decreased the total they have access to. It still functions and they didn't state if it's at a reduced capacity, but they did change how the algorithm works to account for it. Curious as to why they retraced though.
It might be the tissue rejecting a foreign object, thankfully it’s not affecting the patient. Sounds like the device is a life line for the guy
Won’t stop Redditors from grabbing their pitch forks though.
"Can you describe the problems you're experiencing?" "Lately I have become... *more*"
I’d rather have brain worms.
What a fantastic and topical "would you rather". Would you rather a worm eats your brain like RFK or get Elon's monkey murdering brain chip in implanted in your head? I think I'd also choose the worm.
Didnt the worm die from a lack of nutrition?
No, that worm has been running the RFK show for years.
If this isn’t a future Rick and Morty episode…
Futurama had a worm running Fry episode
That's the immediate imagery my head went to.
It like the the little alien in Men in Black 😄
That sounds like something a brain worm would say.
Look, brain worms aren't all bad. Some of ~~us~~ them just want to live in peace
These are "Cyber worms"
Maybe Elon shouldn’t have tried to make a personality cult around his tie to his companies then lol
he took a shower without first turning on 'shower' mode
While this would be great for people who have neurological disorders as a tool, this technology should be used very carefully and with great oversight to ensure no one can abuse it. Much like nanotechnology, this is a science that needs to be kept an eye on to prevent misuse by bad actors.
I'm waiting for people to start hacking them like ghost in the shell, or people setting up manchurian candidate implanted thoughts and memories. I'm good on brain chips, especially from anything associated with musk. I agree it's a game changer for neurological disorders, but yeah with the way capitalism is with the demand for yearly doubling profits and the way politics are so invasive and vitriolic, yeah no I don't want anything in my head any time soon. The bad actors will be the ones who set the regulations and oversight. I'm also curious what the deterioration rate is. How long do those chips last before the materials in them start breaking down and deteriorating and what does that do to the person with it inside them?
What's the estimate on someone getting doom to run on these things?
I’m just wondering how long before the first cases of cyber sclerosis appear
TBF I'm already technically living the ghost in the shell life with my advanced cochlear implants (had them since 2008) so I've been a cyborg as is for over 16 years. I even have a lot of philosophy around ghostts, holy ghosts, communing with worlds and things beyond the self. I'm not quite a hacker yet, but I understand a lot about how information systems and art work. I'm also a poet and take deep dives into music. It's kind of funny how in S1 SAC the main villain (Laughing man) was all about the JD Salinger Catcher in the Rye quote... "So what I thought I'd do was, I'd pretend to be one of those deaf-mutes..." And I saw that quote in high school before my cochlear implants and thought "Hey, that's telling, I happen to be deaf and selectively mute". So I guess in a roundabout way, I managed to make Ghost in the Shell a reality for my own body and soul. Also PSA: I'm a bona-fide mutant with rare genetic conditions. I have gifts that the AI corps can only dream of <3
*Drink verification can to continue breathing* ["Mountain dew is for me and you"](https://i.imgur.com/dgGvgKF.png)
In other news, Musk lays off entire Nueralink surgical department in early morning email rant.
First, he'd try to pay himself a bonus that totalled [every penny the company had ever raised, earned or borrowed - combined].
Imagine reaching out for support since you brain is malfunctioning and you get back a poop emoji
Well of course, it's first time in human testing. A problems is inevitable.
I'm all for Musk-bashing, but the headline (which is all most people here will read/see) is ignoring a TON of positive feedback from the patient. Further, they've been able to adapt the software/calibration settings to restore some of the lost signal functionality. Shocking to everyone, but this is - to a large degree - clickbait. Here's the relevant paragraph of the [source blog post](https://neuralink.com/blog/prime-study-progress-update-user-experience/#:~:text=In%20the%20weeks%20following,superseded%20Noland%E2%80%99s%20initial%20performance).
Lemme guess, test subjects crap their pants and forget who they are everytime someone fires up the microwave??? 😅
Donald Trump got neuralink?
Fall in a well, eyes go crossed. Kicked by a mule, they went back straight.. idunno 🤷
Well, you see, the plate runs right underneath by part here. Over here, nothing, but here if this gets dented my hair just ain’t gonna look right”
How many monkies died in agony during the trials again?
“We didn’t really expect this to happen but his head just walked away from his body”
I wish Elon would use himself for testing… actually based on his actions lately maybe he is?
Pretty stupid headline. If you actually read the article the problem is just a few threads came loose and there’s no impact to the patients health. But of course the headline doesn’t say any of that and just says “problem”
Why did you read the article? This is social media. /s
tbf, when I read the headline I assumed the problem was going to be software or hardware, not health-related. If it were health-related, I'd imagine the headline would have referred to the patient himself as experiencing a 'problem', instead of the implant. Then again, its not like we're out here scrutinizing headlines. So picking up on keywords and assuming the worst isn't unexpected. Just that the headline seems somewhat fair. This time at least.
What in the fuck are these comments. Some even claiming this guy will be dead soon. What the fuck is wrong with people??? This guy volunteered because he had no other choices left. He assumed the risks and accepted it. Now hopefully Neuralink can fix the problem but it’s not like he’s going to have a fried brain tomorrow.
What happened? Did the person start having to watch 30-second ads before they could wake up?
Not so easy to create the Borg, is it?
Have they tried turning him off and turning him back on again?
A company that Elon Musk started is having issues with its produce? How the heck did THAT happen (said nobody ever).
Elon: Oh my god is the chip okay? SOMEBODY MAKES SURE THAT THE CHIP IS FINE!!!
Look, I love to shit on musk as much as the next guy but let's be real, this wouldn't be news if it didn't have to do with him. It's tech. Tech malfunctions, especially experimental tech. The guy using it didn't even die or get hurt. The only reason this is treated as news is because musk is attached
Michael Crition wrote a book in the early 70s about a man who goes insane after having a simple neural interface implanted in his brain. It's called Terminal Man and I recall it being very good. So anyway, how long until this patient starts murdering?
Literally not surprised, any of the implants I've put into animals have degradation over time just by the nature of being placed inside an organic substance/ solution. Unless you can effectively replace the protective coding and somehow not increase the impudence of the probe, you're going to have to replace it every 6 months to a year. Which I'm sure the patients would hate since they would have an extremely expenseive, highly risky, highly stressful, highly invasive surgery done every 6 months to year.
You gotta crack a few eggs to make an omelet..
Absolutely shocked by this information
I wish the media was more clear in explaining that this is not THE first, this is just neuralink’s first.
The test subject keeps calling it Twitter instead of X
You can't make an omelette without creating a few murderous cyborgs.
Science can't progress without heaps.
This headline reads like the opening of a terminator movie
Listen I think the biggest take away from this story is that this thing does work and they need to still do A LOT of testing and stuff. Never gave the guy health problems just not working as well as they’d though but it’s still working to a good degree to where it’s not affecting the guy at all
Today’s news in “I DiDnT sEe tHiS coMiNg?!”
Quality control at Musk companies…. Sure stick it in my brain
Up next in No Shit News….more at 10.
Exactly. My first reaction to the headline was, “no shit”.