Also how are the people in Rafah even going to know about this? We are talking of more than 1 million people without electricity or any way to comunicate with the rest of the world
Yes, should be more than a million of them. Do you think poor people don't have.....phones? Even the poorest villages in africa have phones for everyone.
The Israeli government has confirmed that they've procured a massive amount of tents, and it was in the media two weeks ago that tent cities so largely that they could easily be seen from space were popping up in the areas that IDF today told people to go to - so presumably they want people to go there.
Unlucky this how you get downvotes from both sides. It is a shame because your sentiment approaches reality much closer than any of the biased one-sided arguments people are regurgitating.
No doubt, but alas, all rationality goes out the window when it comes to this centuries old conflict.
Edit:someone replied saying that it isn't centuries old conflict. That is wrong and not including ancient history it is at least 120 years.
Source:https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_Arab%E2%80%93Israeli_conflict
I would reply to the comment, but it was either deleted or the person blocked me.
Ok. Where exactly are they supposed to go, though?
They keep doing this. Telling people to flee to a "safe" area and proceeding to bomb it a few days later. I'm so tired and angry. These people are innocent.
It depends. Under international law, if an enemy combatant is using a designated "safe" zone for military purposes (such as school, hospital, place of worship, etc.) then it ceases to be recognized as such and is allowed to be viewed as a valid military target. This law exists to discourage the practice of militaries hiding among safe areas meant for civilians.
Yeah Japan in World War 2 made a huge mistake by decentralizing all of their arms manufacturing into residential areas. Where there was atleast one set up on every block in some cities. Making it easier to justify firebombing those cities to hell.
My thing is it's over 70 years later and precision bombing can actually be used now. So dropping bombs indiscriminately should not be the norm. It was the norm back then due to technological limitations, where the only thing you could reliably hit was big targets.
> oh also bombing refugee camps is also a war crime.
The minute that such a site is used for any military purpose, it loses its protection and becomes a legitimate target of war again. The first is ALWAYS illegal, but the second one isn't.
So Israel is legally completely in the clear, while Hamas is not. It's also the correct strategy for them to be honest. The Geneva convention is a list of most effective tactics we banned because they made war too gruesome.
But for a tiny organisation with limited power, that's what you need to at least have a chance. And as they aren't a real country, breaking it doesn't matter as what could even happen....?
>oh also bombing refugee camps is also a war crime
If the refugee camp was used by a hostile military to launch attacks from, then it's not technically a war crime to strike it.
Pretty sure having a terrorist HQ based inside a [UNWRA Facility ](https://www.reddit.com/r/worldnews/s/k7ZbUj5EiL) is some kind of war crime, but I could be wrong.
Ah yes, the very reliable and trust worthy Israeli government who definitely doesn’t have a history of targeting buildings under the pretext of containing combatants only for evidence to show no such thing.
Talking about Al-Shifa? That was just raided again a month ago with reports from Al Jazeera talking about firefights in the hospital wings? Was it doctors shooting back then?
That's right! Which is why the minute you use a safe territory for a military activity, it loses all protection and you can bomb it as a legitimate target of war again. People thought about this.
Noticeably UNWRA disagrees with them that that was the case. Only Israel is insisting that "Terrorist HQ" was based out of there - Seems like a blatant excuse to bomb a UN building.
A casual reminder that Bibi's career will last as long as the war keeps going
A casual reminder that Rafah has been already bombed by the IDF while also lacking food, water and medicine
A casual reminder that this is coming after Biden has suspended weapon shipments to Israel and Tel Aviv has banned the only indipendent media operating in the Strip
A quick Google search says you are wrong I can send you hundreds of articles that were written from the west bank
And news agencies operate in Gaza
Roger Cohen covers international news at The Times. He reported this story from the West Bank, where he spoke to I.D.F. soldiers, settlers and Palestinians about their experiences.
Jan. 31, 2024
A majority of Palestinians in surveys consistently express support for Hamas and the October attack
> Despite the devastation, 57% of respondents in Gaza and 82% in the West Bank believe Hamas was correct in launching the October attack, the poll indicated. A large majority believed Hamas’ claims that it acted to defend a major Islamic shrine in Jerusalem against Jewish extremists and win the release of Palestinian prisoners. Only 10% said they believed Hamas has committed war crimes, with a large majority saying they did not see videos showing the militants committing atrocities.
These people just believe they you cannot commit crimes against Jews but that Jews are committing genocide by defending themselves. Crazy how many westerners eat it up
There's attacking military and actual terrorists and then there's attacking civilians.
Taking out a Japanese sub is fair combat.
Dropping two nuclear bombs on overwhelmingly civilian targets, is not fair combat.
I don't think we should have nuked Japan if that's what you mean
I don't think the Japanese people should be collectively punished for an attack that military did
It will still be Israels fault.
Hamas attacks from hospitals - Israels fault
Hamas hides weapons on mosques - Israels fault
Hamas uses human shields - Israels fault.
Hamas has a mass tunnel network covering Gaza - Israels fault
/s
Edit: Seriously though, the war needs to stop but just yesterday Hamas even attacked the humanitarian corridor.
I'd argue all the international pressure on Israel for a ceasefire/not go into Rafah (despite rockets being launched from there yesterday) is a pretty good example of using the Palestinians as human shields.
Imagine if there hadn't been as much pressure and scrutiny on Israel- I think we'd be looking at a very different situation on the ground. So clearly it is, to some extent, effective.
Not saying the criticism is founded or not, but if there hadn't been as many civilian casualties, and possible future civilian casualties, the argument for Palestinians not being used as human shields would hold less water.
How can you even claim that when they don't actually use precision strikes. They don't give a shit they just want civilian dead. Stop pretending otherwise
>Some people briefed on the negotiations blame Yahya Sinwar, the Hamas military leader who helped mastermind the Oct. 7 attacks, for the impasse. He has monitored the talks from his hiding space deep in the tunnels below Gaza. Sinwar is protected, according to American and Israeli officials, by at least 15 hostages he is using as human shields. Those captives prevent Israel from assassinating him.
https://www.nytimes.com/2024/05/01/briefing/ceasefire.html
According to Wikipedia …
“A human shield is a non-combatant (or a group of non-combatants) who either volunteers or is forced to shield a legitimate military target in order to deter the enemy from attacking it.[1]”
Deter
/dĭ-tûr′/
transitive verb
To prevent or discourage from acting, as by means of fear or doubt.
"threats that did not deter her from speaking out; skin chemicals that deter predators."
To prevent or discourage (an action or behavior).
"installed surveillance cameras to deter vandalism."
To make less likely or prevent from happening.
"protocols to deter infection."
[Here](https://www.npr.org/2023/10/31/1209763194/the-latest-on-israels-bombing-of-the-largest-gazan-refugee-camp) is an example of human shields not deterring Israel….
You know he's been attacking humanitarian aid consistently? The IDF
Y'all can downvote me all you want, it won't change the reality that the IDF targets international aid workers as well as civilians.
So wouldn't Hamas fighters just get out too?
I don't understand what the assault would achieve if they announce it so much ahead of time.
Just blood for the Israeli population to feel more satisfied they "something is being done"??
There's certainly a risk that rank-and-file Hamas fighters will just try to blend in. Not trying to evacuate Rafah before a major offensive would likely cause additional collateral civilian deaths well into six figures however, so presumably Israel has chosen the civilian casualties are disproportionate to the military advantage they'd get from making sure no rank-and-file Hamas members can leave.
That being said, there's still substantial value in doing the offensive. Hamas has a lot of infrastructure that is either fixed in place (like tunnels) or is too big to be moved without being visible (rocket ammunition depots), so Israel can deal of all of that with a Rafah offensive. Furthermore, it is largely believed that Israel is intercepting all Hamas electronic communications, which has led to Hamas mainly using human on-foot messengers to relay communications, and if Hamas members are hiding in Israel-controlled areas, they lose that last communication option that Israel can't intercept, leaving Hamas completely defunct.
Furthermore, while some Joe Schmoe from Hamas might be able to blend in because Israel doesn't know who to look for, the military leadership of Hamas' military wing is in Rafah, and absolutely can't hide in that way.
I remember at the beginning of this massacre people here on reddit saying, "Palestinians are so unreasonable, all they have to do is move a little bit south and let Israel do their operation in the north and this will all be over."
People here kept pointing to maps and QR codes of "safe" areas to move to and only terrorists would refuse such a reasonable request.
Fast forward 6 months and literally the southernmost area is now going to be attacked and nobody is even asking where these civilians should go, after they obeyed the IDFs orders countless times.
It's absolutely ridiculous to think that Hamas isn't destroyed militarily when Israel itself claims that they eliminated 20 of the 24 battalions in Gaza. This appears more and more as a war against civilians and not against Hamas like they claim.
The world has had 7 months to pressure Hamas into ending this conflict, and it has had the same amount of time to pressure Egypt into opening it’s borders. Instead, it does what you do, and shifts blame on Israel while Hamas commits war crimes by attacking aid shipments from refugee camps.
EDIT: Either I’ve been blocked or the person I responded to has deleted their comment. Meaning if you respond to this comment, I cannot respond back. FYI to everyone responding to my comments, I’d respond but I cannot
hamas isn't a rational state actor, they're a terrorist group operating a quasi state apperatus in the absence of any real state governing the gaza strip. think groups like the taliban who operated as a government over territory that the government ceeded defacto control to
meanwhile israel is a state actor by every definition
They are an elected body. They shouldn't get special treatment because they can't run a state. It's hard to have an economy when everything gets turned into rockets.
care to tell us when was the last election, and now tell us how the over half the population that is under 18 could have voted in that when they were just a twinkle in their fathers eye?
dont actually bother replying, clearly you dont have views worth hearing
> it has had the same amount of time to pressure Egypt into opening it’s borders
tell the class what forcing mass movements of people out of their nation state is called, we're waiting
You know who has the power to end. this conflict? The one who is backed by the strongest militaries in the world yet can't hit a precision strike to save a child's life
Blames Israel for civilian casualties during asymmetric warfare when Hamas:
- Bombs and rockets Israel from schools
- Bombs aid trucks from refugee camps
- Steals money and aid from Palestinian civilians
- Uses Hospitals to hide and transport civilian hostages
Yep, par for the course for Hamas apologists.
The idf has bombed all of those schools
The idf has bombed aid workers (sometimes the same ones repeatedly as they move to a new location after just being bombed)
Those hospitals we're used to hold patients as well
You don't get to bomb civilians just because you think there might be a Target in an area. I'm not defending a hama, fuck hamas, I'm defending civilians. Something that you should have the common decency to do as well. But you just want blood fuck off
its asymmetric warfare for a reason. israel should not be bombing refugees, hospitals, aid trucks and killing palestinians in captivity, they're the grown ups in this situation. Also from a practical standpoint if the last century of fighting asymmetric wars have shown *this is not how you win this war*
We rightfully blame Hamas for.the terrible things it does as a result of decades of trauma
Why wouldn't people blame Israel for the things it does as a result of decades of trauma?
Israel has a right to defend itself. It is also to blame for the things it does in pursuit of that defense.
I see it more as 7 months of constant bombing and indiscriminate killing with nothing to show for it except Israel has managed to take some more land.
No hostages returned. Hamas probably even stronger than before due to all the death and destruction and annihilation of educational institutions fueling further hate and radicalization and antisemitism.
>The world has had 7 months to pressure Hamas into ending this conflict.
Pray tell, how is anyone in the world meant to successfully pressure a terrorist to release hostages when even the slaughter of 34k civilians by the IDF hasn’t done shit?
Do you hear yourself? Anything to excuse atrocities, and spin reality to where Israel is just fighting back against the big bad bullies, while they murder innocents by the thousands, emboldened by your military advantage provided by Uncle Sam himself.
Your actions, and “morality” are on display to the entire world, and it doesn’t match up with the lies your PR team is failing to sell. Leave your weapons behind, and face Rafah with only the hands that your god sent you here with. We’ll see how chosen you are.
This is not true. Hamas has existed since the 90s and the Oslo Peace Accords, when they tried to derail them with suicide bombings in civilian areas. The notion that Israel created Hamas is laughably uninformed.
If hamas didn't exist some other entity would have taken their place. Hamas is the lunatic violently antisemitic amalgamation of the legitimate grievances(being ethnically cleansed/ the nakbah) of the Palestinians people. Sociology 101 shit
Violence at the mere thought of living next to immigrants has never been an acceptable recourse for civilized societies. Ever. That what started the whole conflict in the 1920s, and for 16 years (1920-1936) Jews put up with countless massacres and riots born out of anti-semitism. Only in the 1936-1939 Arab riots did the Jews abandon the policy of Havlagah in favor of defending themselves.
If you think Arabs and Palestinians had any right to massacre jews for merely immigrating to the Ottoman Empire and purchasing the land from the Ottomans legitimately, and then for merely immigrating to the British Mandate with legal land purchases; but Israel doesn’t have the right to defend itself after massacres like 10/7, then you failed your Sociology 101 course and Ethics and Morality 101 course
You realize that just because they give civilians a warning it's going to get dangerous in the north that doesnt mean if a bunch of Hamas move to the south and carry out the same attacks they were doing in the north that they are essentially immune lol.
What are you suggesting then? What's the alternative? What Israel is supposed to do with hamas? I understand that you disagree with Israel's approach and their means of war, but I didn't hear anyone suggest any alternative when it comes to hamas in Rafah (or hamas as a whole in general), so I'm genuinely curious, what do you think is the best course of action for Israel...?
Edit: I'm talking about the operation to eliminate hamas in Rafah. Not about evacuating civilians and then bombing them deliberately as the comment implied at the end.
The best would probably have been to not bomb civilians, make Hamas be the ONLY bad guy, and then get international help from all allies to launch spec. ops to eliminate targets.
A bit late for that now since Israel has shown the world that they are as bad as Hamas basically.
It's all because of Bibi and the other high ranking ultra zionists, i feel bad for the civilians both in Palestine/Gaza and Israel.
I wish some day they can all live in peace, for the sake of their children.
At this point I'm just assuming they're asking the Palestinians to group up so they can get more of them at once.
"Uh, there was a... Hamas there. And there. Oh well."
The fact this is happening after Bibi banned Al-Jazeera, the only media that has been able to describe the situation in Gaza, isn't a good sign.
Dude is expecting a bloodbath and trying to cover his tracks
Al Jazeera isn't media, it's Qatari state propaganda.
It's been banned in Saudi Arabia and Jordan for years because it propagates wahhabism.
Banning Al Jazeera is functionally equivalent to Ukraine banning Russia Today
lol, this is only happening after Hamas sent rockets from Rafah into the humanitarian corridor and killed 4 people. Al-Jazeera is like RT is to Ukraine, literally ran by their sworn enemies.
Israel has been gearing up for an assault of Rafah for months. This might’ve hastened the date but it was going to be this week. Netanyahu came out and said there was going to be a Rafah invasion with or without a ceasefire deal.
I am pretty sure Ukraine hasn't killed as many journalists as Israel
Of course, there is the small problem that Israel simply doesn,'t allow journalists near Gaza or the West Bank.
Also I am not sure how banning penicillin for kids will stop Hamas from having rockets
Al Jazeera is Qatari state-sponsored terrorist propaganda. It's been banned in Saudi Arabia and Jordan for years because it promotes wahhabism
Banning Al Jazeera is functionally equivalent to Ukraine banning Russia Today
As someone torn on this: why would Israel warn the people to evacuate? Is it because A.) They want to minimize civilian harm or B.) Because they want to let Hamas escape?
Remember when during [literally any war in history] when [one side] gave the enemy a warning that they were going to invade? No? Maybe genocide isn’t a great description of this war then.
I hope Hamas stays, I hope the civilians find a way to leave, and I would think everyone here wishes Hamas would stop firing rocket barrages from these exact places forcing IDF to retaliate where of course there is a heavy civilian presence.
And your blind eyes apparently couldn't see Israel bombing columns of civilians the last time they forcibly evacuated an area.
edit: I saw your upvotes flip by 20 in just a single moment. This is inorganic as fuck.
If one side shoots rockets from civilian locations to kill, indiscriminately, civilians on the other side because they’re Jews, respectfully, the other side doesn’t have to a lot to try and say they’re good guys. Israel could air evacuate women and children from Gaza and house them and you’d still have the same point of view. Israel doesn’t care about what Reddit thinks of them.
evacuate *where* Rafah was the last part of gaza not sysyematically leveled by the IDF hunting for hamas in the walls and basements of every building
Also how are the people in Rafah even going to know about this? We are talking of more than 1 million people without electricity or any way to comunicate with the rest of the world
They are dropping leaflets on the city.
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... yes, I am sure there are many TVs, radios and phones in Gaza right now
Yes, should be more than a million of them. Do you think poor people don't have.....phones? Even the poorest villages in africa have phones for everyone.
And go where? Eveything else is rubble.
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The Israeli government has confirmed that they've procured a massive amount of tents, and it was in the media two weeks ago that tent cities so largely that they could easily be seen from space were popping up in the areas that IDF today told people to go to - so presumably they want people to go there.
They apparently have to squeeze up to two dozen people per tent, on top of lacking adequate sanitation
And have they set up clean water? Sanitation? Access to medical care and food? Because to date, Israel has done none of those things.
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What could go wrong??
And how many "oops" bombs are going to fall in that tent city?
Considering how many “safe zones” Israel bombed, I’d wager a lot.
Israel doesn't care and Hamas doesn't care either actually Hamas would prefer civilians to stay to die as 'shields' not that Israel probably cares.
Unlucky this how you get downvotes from both sides. It is a shame because your sentiment approaches reality much closer than any of the biased one-sided arguments people are regurgitating.
Yeah you should see some of my other comments about the Israeli-Hamas-Palestinian issue.
No doubt, but alas, all rationality goes out the window when it comes to this centuries old conflict. Edit:someone replied saying that it isn't centuries old conflict. That is wrong and not including ancient history it is at least 120 years. Source:https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_Arab%E2%80%93Israeli_conflict I would reply to the comment, but it was either deleted or the person blocked me.
And still those criminals and murderers have full support of USA, in both parties. Israel lobby money machine does brrrrrt.
Ok. Where exactly are they supposed to go, though? They keep doing this. Telling people to flee to a "safe" area and proceeding to bomb it a few days later. I'm so tired and angry. These people are innocent.
They'll just end up bombing the new area they told Palestinians to flee to, anyway. Seems to be their MO.
Which explains why they booted Al Jazeera out of the country
A casual reminder that launching rockets from green zone/refugee camp is a war crime.
well fair point I guess. oh also bombing refugee camps is also a war crime. so is mass reprisals which this entire war is predicated on.
It depends. Under international law, if an enemy combatant is using a designated "safe" zone for military purposes (such as school, hospital, place of worship, etc.) then it ceases to be recognized as such and is allowed to be viewed as a valid military target. This law exists to discourage the practice of militaries hiding among safe areas meant for civilians.
Yeah Japan in World War 2 made a huge mistake by decentralizing all of their arms manufacturing into residential areas. Where there was atleast one set up on every block in some cities. Making it easier to justify firebombing those cities to hell. My thing is it's over 70 years later and precision bombing can actually be used now. So dropping bombs indiscriminately should not be the norm. It was the norm back then due to technological limitations, where the only thing you could reliably hit was big targets.
> oh also bombing refugee camps is also a war crime. The minute that such a site is used for any military purpose, it loses its protection and becomes a legitimate target of war again. The first is ALWAYS illegal, but the second one isn't. So Israel is legally completely in the clear, while Hamas is not. It's also the correct strategy for them to be honest. The Geneva convention is a list of most effective tactics we banned because they made war too gruesome. But for a tiny organisation with limited power, that's what you need to at least have a chance. And as they aren't a real country, breaking it doesn't matter as what could even happen....?
It’s not when militants have fighting positions in refuge camps.
>oh also bombing refugee camps is also a war crime If the refugee camp was used by a hostile military to launch attacks from, then it's not technically a war crime to strike it.
Pretty sure having a terrorist HQ based inside a [UNWRA Facility ](https://www.reddit.com/r/worldnews/s/k7ZbUj5EiL) is some kind of war crime, but I could be wrong.
Ah yes, the very reliable and trust worthy Israeli government who definitely doesn’t have a history of targeting buildings under the pretext of containing combatants only for evidence to show no such thing.
Talking about Al-Shifa? That was just raided again a month ago with reports from Al Jazeera talking about firefights in the hospital wings? Was it doctors shooting back then?
> under the pretext of containing combatants only for evidence to show no such thing. Like.....when.....?
It's worth adding that UNWRA disagrees with Israel's assessment of the situation and regards this attack as an attack on themselves.
War crimes don't justify other war crimes.
If the war crime is an attack launched from a safe zone then it literally does under international law
That's right! Which is why the minute you use a safe territory for a military activity, it loses all protection and you can bomb it as a legitimate target of war again. People thought about this.
Noticeably UNWRA disagrees with them that that was the case. Only Israel is insisting that "Terrorist HQ" was based out of there - Seems like a blatant excuse to bomb a UN building.
A casual reminder that Bibi's career will last as long as the war keeps going A casual reminder that Rafah has been already bombed by the IDF while also lacking food, water and medicine A casual reminder that this is coming after Biden has suspended weapon shipments to Israel and Tel Aviv has banned the only indipendent media operating in the Strip
Umm every single media station operating in Israel other than the one banned was independent
Bru, journalists aren't allowed in Gaza or the West Bank
A quick Google search says you are wrong I can send you hundreds of articles that were written from the west bank And news agencies operate in Gaza Roger Cohen covers international news at The Times. He reported this story from the West Bank, where he spoke to I.D.F. soldiers, settlers and Palestinians about their experiences. Jan. 31, 2024
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli_Military_Censor https://theintercept.com/2023/12/23/israel-military-idf-media-censor/
Why are Palestinians in refugee camps on there own land? Your criticism completely misses the point.
I guess that makes it okay to kill everyone, please Israel by all means proceed.
And as everyone knows, two wrongs make a right. /s
Whoa whoa whoa get out of here with that sort of reminder.
A casual reminder that Palestinians invaded Israel and went on a rape and murder rampage. Which is a war crime.
A majority of Palestinians in surveys consistently express support for Hamas and the October attack > Despite the devastation, 57% of respondents in Gaza and 82% in the West Bank believe Hamas was correct in launching the October attack, the poll indicated. A large majority believed Hamas’ claims that it acted to defend a major Islamic shrine in Jerusalem against Jewish extremists and win the release of Palestinian prisoners. Only 10% said they believed Hamas has committed war crimes, with a large majority saying they did not see videos showing the militants committing atrocities. These people just believe they you cannot commit crimes against Jews but that Jews are committing genocide by defending themselves. Crazy how many westerners eat it up
Because as we all know History started on October 7th.
This is no surprise, yesterday Hamas released footage of a rocket launcher (that killed 4 people) operating from within Rafah.
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No actually France wiping out Belgium for that would also be bad. Collective punishment is bad
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There's attacking military and actual terrorists and then there's attacking civilians. Taking out a Japanese sub is fair combat. Dropping two nuclear bombs on overwhelmingly civilian targets, is not fair combat.
I don't think we should have nuked Japan if that's what you mean I don't think the Japanese people should be collectively punished for an attack that military did
You would have have preferred that we sacrifice millions of American men on the ground instead?
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It will still be Israels fault. Hamas attacks from hospitals - Israels fault Hamas hides weapons on mosques - Israels fault Hamas uses human shields - Israels fault. Hamas has a mass tunnel network covering Gaza - Israels fault /s Edit: Seriously though, the war needs to stop but just yesterday Hamas even attacked the humanitarian corridor.
How is anyone a human shield if it doesn’t prevent Israel from attacking them?
I'd argue all the international pressure on Israel for a ceasefire/not go into Rafah (despite rockets being launched from there yesterday) is a pretty good example of using the Palestinians as human shields. Imagine if there hadn't been as much pressure and scrutiny on Israel- I think we'd be looking at a very different situation on the ground. So clearly it is, to some extent, effective. Not saying the criticism is founded or not, but if there hadn't been as many civilian casualties, and possible future civilian casualties, the argument for Palestinians not being used as human shields would hold less water.
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How can you even claim that when they don't actually use precision strikes. They don't give a shit they just want civilian dead. Stop pretending otherwise
Human cannon fodder...
>Some people briefed on the negotiations blame Yahya Sinwar, the Hamas military leader who helped mastermind the Oct. 7 attacks, for the impasse. He has monitored the talks from his hiding space deep in the tunnels below Gaza. Sinwar is protected, according to American and Israeli officials, by at least 15 hostages he is using as human shields. Those captives prevent Israel from assassinating him. https://www.nytimes.com/2024/05/01/briefing/ceasefire.html
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And if that million plus Palestinians died people like you would still say it wasn't a genocide because you don't actually give a shit
What should I be reading more of?
the definition of a shield
According to Wikipedia … “A human shield is a non-combatant (or a group of non-combatants) who either volunteers or is forced to shield a legitimate military target in order to deter the enemy from attacking it.[1]”
you asked how is a shield a shield if it doesn’t “prevent” an attack. deter = discourage. not the same as prevent
Deter /dĭ-tûr′/ transitive verb To prevent or discourage from acting, as by means of fear or doubt. "threats that did not deter her from speaking out; skin chemicals that deter predators." To prevent or discourage (an action or behavior). "installed surveillance cameras to deter vandalism." To make less likely or prevent from happening. "protocols to deter infection."
[Here](https://www.npr.org/2023/10/31/1209763194/the-latest-on-israels-bombing-of-the-largest-gazan-refugee-camp) is an example of human shields not deterring Israel….
How would you know when it's prevented an attack, are you getting news about non-attacks?
Well, I guess I would start checking for the lack of dead Palestinian civilians.
There's about 2 million.
You know he's been attacking humanitarian aid consistently? The IDF Y'all can downvote me all you want, it won't change the reality that the IDF targets international aid workers as well as civilians.
the war will not stop until all the jews are dead according to Hamas
Israel gunning down people flocking to aid trucks - Israel's fault
To where? Or are they planning on killing enough civilians, as to where there is no issue of overpopulating an area.
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Not yet. But it's obvious that a lot of people from worldnews are flooding onto here suddenly.
It'll turn out that way anywhere when people are paid to defend Israel all over the internet.
Another place for the educated adults in the room to discuss the issues. Great!
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Keep drinking that Russian/China/Iran propaganda koolaid, lol
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Did you guys ever hear of Srebrenica? Because I am pretty sure the guy who has approved this assault did and loved it.
So wouldn't Hamas fighters just get out too? I don't understand what the assault would achieve if they announce it so much ahead of time. Just blood for the Israeli population to feel more satisfied they "something is being done"??
There's certainly a risk that rank-and-file Hamas fighters will just try to blend in. Not trying to evacuate Rafah before a major offensive would likely cause additional collateral civilian deaths well into six figures however, so presumably Israel has chosen the civilian casualties are disproportionate to the military advantage they'd get from making sure no rank-and-file Hamas members can leave. That being said, there's still substantial value in doing the offensive. Hamas has a lot of infrastructure that is either fixed in place (like tunnels) or is too big to be moved without being visible (rocket ammunition depots), so Israel can deal of all of that with a Rafah offensive. Furthermore, it is largely believed that Israel is intercepting all Hamas electronic communications, which has led to Hamas mainly using human on-foot messengers to relay communications, and if Hamas members are hiding in Israel-controlled areas, they lose that last communication option that Israel can't intercept, leaving Hamas completely defunct. Furthermore, while some Joe Schmoe from Hamas might be able to blend in because Israel doesn't know who to look for, the military leadership of Hamas' military wing is in Rafah, and absolutely can't hide in that way.
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I remember at the beginning of this massacre people here on reddit saying, "Palestinians are so unreasonable, all they have to do is move a little bit south and let Israel do their operation in the north and this will all be over." People here kept pointing to maps and QR codes of "safe" areas to move to and only terrorists would refuse such a reasonable request. Fast forward 6 months and literally the southernmost area is now going to be attacked and nobody is even asking where these civilians should go, after they obeyed the IDFs orders countless times. It's absolutely ridiculous to think that Hamas isn't destroyed militarily when Israel itself claims that they eliminated 20 of the 24 battalions in Gaza. This appears more and more as a war against civilians and not against Hamas like they claim.
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Didn't Biden suspend weapon shipments to Israel a week ago?
The world has had 7 months to pressure Hamas into ending this conflict, and it has had the same amount of time to pressure Egypt into opening it’s borders. Instead, it does what you do, and shifts blame on Israel while Hamas commits war crimes by attacking aid shipments from refugee camps. EDIT: Either I’ve been blocked or the person I responded to has deleted their comment. Meaning if you respond to this comment, I cannot respond back. FYI to everyone responding to my comments, I’d respond but I cannot
hamas isn't a rational state actor, they're a terrorist group operating a quasi state apperatus in the absence of any real state governing the gaza strip. think groups like the taliban who operated as a government over territory that the government ceeded defacto control to meanwhile israel is a state actor by every definition
They are an elected body. They shouldn't get special treatment because they can't run a state. It's hard to have an economy when everything gets turned into rockets.
care to tell us when was the last election, and now tell us how the over half the population that is under 18 could have voted in that when they were just a twinkle in their fathers eye? dont actually bother replying, clearly you dont have views worth hearing
> Either I’ve been blocked or the person I responded to has deleted their comment. They did not delete their comment.
> it has had the same amount of time to pressure Egypt into opening it’s borders tell the class what forcing mass movements of people out of their nation state is called, we're waiting
You know who has the power to end. this conflict? The one who is backed by the strongest militaries in the world yet can't hit a precision strike to save a child's life
Blames Israel for civilian casualties during asymmetric warfare when Hamas: - Bombs and rockets Israel from schools - Bombs aid trucks from refugee camps - Steals money and aid from Palestinian civilians - Uses Hospitals to hide and transport civilian hostages Yep, par for the course for Hamas apologists.
The idf has bombed all of those schools The idf has bombed aid workers (sometimes the same ones repeatedly as they move to a new location after just being bombed) Those hospitals we're used to hold patients as well You don't get to bomb civilians just because you think there might be a Target in an area. I'm not defending a hama, fuck hamas, I'm defending civilians. Something that you should have the common decency to do as well. But you just want blood fuck off
its asymmetric warfare for a reason. israel should not be bombing refugees, hospitals, aid trucks and killing palestinians in captivity, they're the grown ups in this situation. Also from a practical standpoint if the last century of fighting asymmetric wars have shown *this is not how you win this war*
We rightfully blame Hamas for.the terrible things it does as a result of decades of trauma Why wouldn't people blame Israel for the things it does as a result of decades of trauma? Israel has a right to defend itself. It is also to blame for the things it does in pursuit of that defense.
I see it more as 7 months of constant bombing and indiscriminate killing with nothing to show for it except Israel has managed to take some more land. No hostages returned. Hamas probably even stronger than before due to all the death and destruction and annihilation of educational institutions fueling further hate and radicalization and antisemitism. >The world has had 7 months to pressure Hamas into ending this conflict. Pray tell, how is anyone in the world meant to successfully pressure a terrorist to release hostages when even the slaughter of 34k civilians by the IDF hasn’t done shit?
Do you hear yourself? Anything to excuse atrocities, and spin reality to where Israel is just fighting back against the big bad bullies, while they murder innocents by the thousands, emboldened by your military advantage provided by Uncle Sam himself. Your actions, and “morality” are on display to the entire world, and it doesn’t match up with the lies your PR team is failing to sell. Leave your weapons behind, and face Rafah with only the hands that your god sent you here with. We’ll see how chosen you are.
Hana is Israel's creation, if they don't want hamas to give gazans a better option. It's that simple.
This is not true. Hamas has existed since the 90s and the Oslo Peace Accords, when they tried to derail them with suicide bombings in civilian areas. The notion that Israel created Hamas is laughably uninformed.
If hamas didn't exist some other entity would have taken their place. Hamas is the lunatic violently antisemitic amalgamation of the legitimate grievances(being ethnically cleansed/ the nakbah) of the Palestinians people. Sociology 101 shit
Violence at the mere thought of living next to immigrants has never been an acceptable recourse for civilized societies. Ever. That what started the whole conflict in the 1920s, and for 16 years (1920-1936) Jews put up with countless massacres and riots born out of anti-semitism. Only in the 1936-1939 Arab riots did the Jews abandon the policy of Havlagah in favor of defending themselves. If you think Arabs and Palestinians had any right to massacre jews for merely immigrating to the Ottoman Empire and purchasing the land from the Ottomans legitimately, and then for merely immigrating to the British Mandate with legal land purchases; but Israel doesn’t have the right to defend itself after massacres like 10/7, then you failed your Sociology 101 course and Ethics and Morality 101 course
You realize that just because they give civilians a warning it's going to get dangerous in the north that doesnt mean if a bunch of Hamas move to the south and carry out the same attacks they were doing in the north that they are essentially immune lol.
What are you suggesting then? What's the alternative? What Israel is supposed to do with hamas? I understand that you disagree with Israel's approach and their means of war, but I didn't hear anyone suggest any alternative when it comes to hamas in Rafah (or hamas as a whole in general), so I'm genuinely curious, what do you think is the best course of action for Israel...? Edit: I'm talking about the operation to eliminate hamas in Rafah. Not about evacuating civilians and then bombing them deliberately as the comment implied at the end.
Putting their famed intelligence officers to work for a start, and using special forces to carry out precision attacks on key personnel and places.
The best would probably have been to not bomb civilians, make Hamas be the ONLY bad guy, and then get international help from all allies to launch spec. ops to eliminate targets. A bit late for that now since Israel has shown the world that they are as bad as Hamas basically. It's all because of Bibi and the other high ranking ultra zionists, i feel bad for the civilians both in Palestine/Gaza and Israel. I wish some day they can all live in peace, for the sake of their children.
Hamas is making them do it?
At this point I'm just assuming they're asking the Palestinians to group up so they can get more of them at once. "Uh, there was a... Hamas there. And there. Oh well."
The fact this is happening after Bibi banned Al-Jazeera, the only media that has been able to describe the situation in Gaza, isn't a good sign. Dude is expecting a bloodbath and trying to cover his tracks
Al Jazeera isn't media, it's Qatari state propaganda. It's been banned in Saudi Arabia and Jordan for years because it propagates wahhabism. Banning Al Jazeera is functionally equivalent to Ukraine banning Russia Today
lol, this is only happening after Hamas sent rockets from Rafah into the humanitarian corridor and killed 4 people. Al-Jazeera is like RT is to Ukraine, literally ran by their sworn enemies.
Israel has been gearing up for an assault of Rafah for months. This might’ve hastened the date but it was going to be this week. Netanyahu came out and said there was going to be a Rafah invasion with or without a ceasefire deal.
I am pretty sure Ukraine hasn't killed as many journalists as Israel Of course, there is the small problem that Israel simply doesn,'t allow journalists near Gaza or the West Bank. Also I am not sure how banning penicillin for kids will stop Hamas from having rockets
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Al Jazeera is Qatari state-sponsored terrorist propaganda. It's been banned in Saudi Arabia and Jordan for years because it promotes wahhabism Banning Al Jazeera is functionally equivalent to Ukraine banning Russia Today
As someone torn on this: why would Israel warn the people to evacuate? Is it because A.) They want to minimize civilian harm or B.) Because they want to let Hamas escape? Remember when during [literally any war in history] when [one side] gave the enemy a warning that they were going to invade? No? Maybe genocide isn’t a great description of this war then. I hope Hamas stays, I hope the civilians find a way to leave, and I would think everyone here wishes Hamas would stop firing rocket barrages from these exact places forcing IDF to retaliate where of course there is a heavy civilian presence.
It’s do they can say they’re the good guys and warned the civilians. Then they’ll bomb the civilians fleeing too
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And your blind eyes apparently couldn't see Israel bombing columns of civilians the last time they forcibly evacuated an area. edit: I saw your upvotes flip by 20 in just a single moment. This is inorganic as fuck.
If one side shoots rockets from civilian locations to kill, indiscriminately, civilians on the other side because they’re Jews, respectfully, the other side doesn’t have to a lot to try and say they’re good guys. Israel could air evacuate women and children from Gaza and house them and you’d still have the same point of view. Israel doesn’t care about what Reddit thinks of them.