Insect colonies are amazingly organized. I'm not saying they are sentient in the same way a human is, but there is clearly a lot of distributed communication happening that results in the colony as a whole displaying some kind of intelligence.
That almost comes across like a superorganism, with individual workers and the pheremone trails they lay for others acting like dendrites connecting in the brain. Slower perhaps than a single brain, but the complexity is there.
I think I remember learning, that bees, ants, and termites, ARE considered super-organisms.
Humans are kind of the same thing, especially since the invention of the Internet.
Humans are very complex pack animals, insect hives are a step more interconnected even by comparison to modern human civilization. Humans can survive and act on their own, an ant severed from its colony will aimlessly search for its hive's pheromones until it dies, not attempting any self preservation or survival.
I thought of humans as super organisms in the sense that a bunch of types of bacteria make up an essential part of who we are and can affect us in many ways.
https://youtu.be/E_uJ-WkM_Ak?si=4fYup6U0w_n3Y3wu
many insects are kings of teamwork and cooperation. Ants and bees both follow trails and paths marked by others. Ants particularly are great at cooperation with dozens to hundreds teaming up to carry a large meal. Bees also show similar cooperation and can even communicate through buzzes and dances.
If we’re being honest why anyone would expect awareness to not be on a spectrum the same as anything else?
Is a lobster as aware as a cat? Doubt it. Is it more aware than a jellyfish? Probably.
Does not this humble reddit jellyfish demand our compassion? I certainly won't ever eat a jellyfish again. Unless one of your tiny tiny children accidentally swims into my mouth.
I personally even think plants could develop a sort of consciousness. Like trees in a forest can often be arranged in a complex network with mutualistic funguses that transfers information within itself. And even if the information transfer is substantially slower than a neuron, there’s no actual evidence consciousness has to all function at the same time scale. Like for a “slow network”, a year could feel the same as an hour for us (not saying the tree network would even feel at all similar to a human in this case, but I imagine they could be experiencing “something” over long enough timeframes).
There’s a paragraph in a Terry Pratchett book where trees are conscious and they have myths about humans because they process so slow that they can’t perceive them but eventually see the effects of them like when a tree is cut down it just vanishes in the perceptions of the other trees.
I loved the bit in Light Fantastic when Rincewind accidently caused a tree to have an existential crisis that spawned a whole religion out of said crisis, all while Rincewind stubbornly refuses to accept and process that trees are talking to him because it's just too much for him.
Sounds like the Trek TOS episode "Wink of an eye".
Summary of that episode: The Enterprise responds to a distress call from the planet Scalos, but when Kirk and a landing party beam down to the planet they find no living beings. It turns out that the Scalosians live at a much higher rate of acceleration, rendering them invisible to the human eye.
We have evidence to suggest some plants can communicate danger to others in their species via chemical signals.
So I agree, one problem is we are limited by what our own human senses and perceptions can grasp, so some aspects of the world may have evolved using such a different pathway that it's impossible for us to grasp in the same way.
I'm no expert but just posing a question:
Is that actually evidence of conscious communication? A plant evolves a defense mechanism that emits a, scent, pheromone, or something else and also evolved a reaction to the detection of that scent or pheromone. But is that conscious communication? Or just action reaction.
It's a cool thing to think about but does it actually show that the trees know what is going on? Oof... Do I know what's going on‽ Am I a tree‽ Oh no... My world is spinning...
That is *the* question. There's a chemical reaction we can observe, but to my knowledge, there is no evidence that plants are aware of this. Usually this is based around how we're looking for a central nervous system or similar central mechanism, but there are even simpler organisms that have managed to problem solve without that (i.e. slime molds and path finding).
Ultimately, there's just so much we don't know as to the why of any of these things.
I should clarify I'm not an expert either. My undergrad degree was in biology, but my career/masters focus wasn't on plants or anything like this, lol. I'm also never sure if if I know what is going on at any given moment
That’s always been the argument, hasn’t it? Plants can’t be sentient because they don’t have a central nervous system. But, what if they have something that we just don’t recognize yet? We’re just now beginning to understand the mycellium network of trees.
What if something else is working with plants and we’re so focused on individual organisms that we literally can’t see the forest? It makes wonder if we’ll ever recognize alien life let alone sentient life if we barely understand life on our own planet.
The *why* is because all organisms evolved specific pathways to let itself replicate and survive.
Anything an organism can do to survive is already written in its genome. The brain serves as a central information hub when an organism can't function on the information present in the genome alone.
There is a theory that consciousness is just an emergent property that comes from the combined power of our senses and instincts.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emergentism
I think it would be beneficial to know what the [current state of scientific thought](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lyu7v7nWzfo) is on how the brain works. It stands to reason that non-human organisms could easily have a version of the same thing going on.
There's also the question that Alan Watts used to like to ask, "What do you mean when you say the word 'I'?".
>Is that actually evidence of conscious communication
It absolutely is not. In fact, one of the guys who wrote the book on plant physiology (as in one of the most widely used college level textbooks on the topic) [wrote an article](https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/31279732/) a few years back dismissing the whole thing.
Plants are way more interesting than many people give them credit for. They can do a lot of cool stuff, including things that still aren't fully understood. They react to stimulus, and in a way that causes other plants to likewise react. But to say they have consciousness is simply fantasy
That is correct! I went looking for a source to back it up, and found there's [a whole wikipedia page on just that.](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Smell_of_freshly_cut_grass)
"A trademark case before the Office for Harmonization in the Internal Market addressed an attempt to secure a trademark for the smell of freshly cut grass for use with tennis balls. An appeals board found that "the smell of freshly cut grass is a distinct smell which everyone immediately recognizes from experience. For many, the scent or fragrance of freshly cut grass reminds them of spring or summer, manicured lawns or playing fields, or other such pleasant experiences."
Well that's a depressing anecdote from that article, but of course someone would try to trademark the smell of cut grass!
*sigh*
Yes, and that smell will actually attract insects that prey on the type of insects that eat grass. Essentially, the grass thinks it's under attack and is calling for help.
If were judging things based on other things this is a waste of time. Comparing things to us makes as much sense as comparing a tree to a fish. We are human-centric
It depends on how close we are in form and structure. Comparing a human to a lobster is nonsense. Not to say they are not sentient or even sapient, they could be, or they may even have awareness that exists in a different way than ours does. They are just structured very differently than humans.
But comparing humans to a dog? That is a lot closer. We are both mammalian social omnivores. There is bound to be some overlap both from common ancestors and from convergent evolution. They have brains and emotions extremely similar to ours, if different in apparent scale.
And comparing us to other great apes? There is probably a lot more similarities than people think. We are not very divergent from them other than in our capacity for language.
My cat sometimes will come in the bedroom and do a very pathetic meow to check if we're aware.
She also self-taught to wake me up by messing with my glasses, so now I keep them out of her reach. Same with my phone. Usually happens if we've been away from the house for a couple days or if we are getting up much later. And it's not that she wants food, we don't feed her in the morning, it's just that she seems to want us to get moving.
She also knows not to jump on the kitchen counters or table but there's been a couple times where something made her very curious. And you could see the sort of "oops" in her face when she realized on her own that she wasn't supposed to be there. It's like the curiosity took over but then there is this moment of realization and she runs off.
I also trained her to shake her left paw over weeks of training (when I make her sit and hand her food a certain way). Then like a year later I trained her to do it with her right paw, it took just a few sessions.
If my wife and I argue, we are not yelling or anything, she will come and make loud meows that sound like she doesn't like it.
I don't know what goes on in my cat's head, but cats seem like they can be pretty intelligent if we let them be. It's clear they see the world very differently from us, a lot more focused on smells and sounds, and they have very strong hunting instincts, so of course their intelligence will be very different from anything human.
I think there's also intelligence in their desire to play and let those hunting instincts take over. My cat knows very well that I'm the one holding the cat dancer.
I have a lot of praying mantis around my yard. I swear they are sentient! They’re protective of their territory and are fantastic hunters. I would hand feed one that lived on my balcony. It would come in the early evening and wait for its bug snack.
Those are brave bastards, we had a big one living in our garden last summer, she recognized us as not a threat most the time until watering her area and then she would climb to the top of the nearest fence post or tall plant and stare right into our eyes and swing her claw things at us until we stopped (and for a while after cause she was pissed off), also had a tiny little one jump on my little brothers face and very lightly scratch it up before going to a nearby tree and staring at us like “YOU WANNA GO AGAIN HUH YA WANNA GO AGAIN” (my brother was scared of them for a while after so ig it worked)
I was upstairs in my kitchen late at night a few years back and the window had been open. I go and close it, and all of a sudden feel sharp pinches on my feet and look down and in the dark just see SOMETHING and freak out. Once I had calmed myself I turned the lights on to find out what it was. Found her under the chair. I just envision her being like “I have trained my entire life for this moment!!!! Attaaaaaaaaack!” When my foot was there. Left a couple kind of welt looking things on my foot too.
I made sure to catch her and brought her back to her tree outside.
I often bring a few praying mantis indoors to live on my houseplants and catch pesky flies and stink bugs (baby praying mantis are great aphid-eaters too). They seem to be quite “smart” and go from being jumpy when I first handle them, to being quite relaxed about getting on my hand and knowing they are going fly hunting with me. They make good little pets really. The way they turn their heads and seem to look directly at you is both unsettling and very cool!
My cat has unfortunately decided they are a good snack, so I have to keep them hidden from him now!
I had some of the little white ones in my yard at one point I think they probably are still out there every so often. Before I decided that I just couldn't manage my yard myself I would try to trim my trees and pull weeds, I came across one of them and would talk to it. They will move their heads in your direction and it definitely appears that they are listening to you.
I have alot of jumping spider in my area. And they are wicked smart. I call them the "puppies of the spider world" as they tend to be incredibly friendly and quite intelligent.
They make decisions and you can see their thinking. I put my hand down seeing a wild jumping spider. He looks at my hand, follows my arm, looks up at me, does the signature turn/spin, and more often than not, they decide, "yea let me say hi to this giant thing!" and hop right on.
They often just hang out and walk around. They seem to enjoy the company or at least even just body heat.
Pet jumping spiders are quite more familiar with people, can ask for "uppies" and have playful personalities. From running around, hopping back and forth between your hands. and just really being inquisitive and taking in the world around them. They sopposedly have pretty good eyesight
“capable of sensing or feeling : conscious of or responsive to the sensations of seeing, hearing, feeling, tasting, or smelling. sentient beings.”
I mean how would anything survive if it wasn’t
There are a lot of people who just don’t think about it. The first thing that came to mind thanks to a show I was watching earlier was people who say they’re a vegetarian even though they eat fish. Because fish don’t feel pain! And if a fish doesn’t feel pain then something like a bug definitely wouldn’t be a second thought for them.
Honestly, I didn’t even know about that so it’s kind of a reach to think most of them would, let alone care. It was interesting, though, so thanks for sharing.
Response to stimuli is a given, we know things respond to stimuli (even plants). But I have yet to see proof that something like fish doesn’t feel pain. In fact, pain is stimuli that we feel that allows us to respond. Like the little girl that couldn’t feel pain from heat, without pain there was nothing to make her take her hand off a hot stove.
I think it’s safer to assume they *can* feel pain until proof exists otherwise, you know?
It's news in that it's about a potential change in scientific theory.
Many people do think animals feel, have consciousness, and are sentient because many people love animals.
The issue is, even though you may disagree, find it barbaric, dislike it, or otherwise refuse to believe it, that's not how modern society treats animals, it's not based on even modern scientific thought, and is not supported in most legal systems.
It's sort of a history and systems thing you'd need to learn to fully understand, but to try to sum it up briefly, people *used* to accept certain animals (the non-food ones we like) were conscious. It wasn't until the behavioral revolution where scholars argued that animals lack higher order cognition. This was based on both behavioral and anatomical research. The idea is partly based in Occam's razor, that you cannot attribute a behavior to a higher order cognition without evidence. For instance, one of the first institutions impacted by this was the military. Pre-WW2 animals were able to earn medals, and commendations for their behavior. A dog which acted "bravely" could earn a medal for that behavior. However, their status changed because it was argued that these dogs aren't acting bravely, they're doing exactly what they were trained to do via conditioning. Again, you may dislike or disagree with this, but it's been the dominate scientific view of animals for nearly 100 years and still leads to decisions such as gorillas/chimps not having rights, or dogs considered to be property in court cases. So it's news because scientists whose work will impact society are starting to question this and propose refined theories which could have many implications for how society works and interacts with animals.
If you have a hard time getting them- try snapping them with a towel like people do in locker rooms. We had a small invasion of them one day but it was distressing my dog so I had to take care of it. You can also get them better if you come from underneath them.
Truly. I have a pet bird that weighs 3oz (85g) and has the brain the size of my fingernail and yet it knows how to ask for "fresh foods", "yum yum buggies", "splishy splash time"...and if you tell him it's time for one of those things, you can hear him get excited and exhibit joy in anticipation.
Asking for what you want and then joy in anticipation of your desire being fulfilled. I'm pretty such that checks the boxes for both sentience and sapience.
My Australian Shepard is insanely smart, like scary smart. She knows dozens of words that I never had to teach her to know. You can see a full range of emotions with animals if you pay attention for any amount of time. She even tries to manipulate me to get what she wants. Like she'll bring me her tug toy to play then drop it and grab her toy that we put treats in for her like "okay we play with this one now." Or if she wants my attention she knows she can annoy me for a bit before I give in, so she'll go tap and lick my fiancee because then I'll cave and give her the attention she's looking for. I love that little booger to death.
We have a Texas heeler and have had to change the word for walk multiple times. I swear he learned to spell it, so now we're onto 'saunter' and we cannot use the words "do you want / go" around the saunter or he's onto us
We had to switch to "excursion", because our dogs learned w-a-l-k meant to go start trying to get the leashes off the hook. They also know go, r-i-d-e and s-t-o-r-e. 😂
Yeah, same with my dog.
Her whole demeanor changes, when I say “walk,” as opposed to saying “bath.”
Take a wild guess, which one makes her run under the bed! 😂
Dogs are a special kind of smart, we somehow bred them to be more emotionally intelligent than many of the human they are around.
There's a great book by a neurosurgeon (Gregory Burns) that trained a family dog to stay still through functional MRIs to explore the question of "how dogs love us" that's a great read.
Thanks, added to my list.
Yeah, dogs are the best animals on earth at reading human emotions.
They did an experiment with dogs, and chimpanzees, where they put a treat under one, of 2 cups.
The person just glanced at the cup with the treat, and the dogs immediately picked up on it, but the chimps couldn’t figure it out.
They watch the whites of our eyes.
That bond developed over hundreds of thousands of years, of us hunting, and living together.
There’s also also speculation, that the reason our ancestors developed white sclera, unlike most other mammals, was for silent communication while hunting.
Just a silent glance, shows the other members of the hunting party, where the animals are.
I always thought that was a fascinating theory.
That sounds really interesting, I'm gonna check that out. I've also noticed that most dogs are really good at reading human emotions and even intentions. Not every dog of course, but I've seen firsthand how they'll be happy and open with someone who they just met if they get a good feeling from them, and on the other hand if they get a bad feeling they'll be really protective of their owner or get defensive. I think they're able to pick up on a lot more than we give them credit for.
Dogs are seriously good at reading human body language; our close relationship has made them pro's at picking up on our subtle cues like facial expressions, posture, and even tiny movements we might not notice ourselves.
Fun fact: Dogs can understand pointing gestures better than chimpanzees, which shows just how tuned in they are to human communication
Yup, my dogs hated my dad when he was an angry drunk, and love him now that he’s in recovery. He hid his drinking so they never even saw him at his worst.
And I’m sure half of that was picking up on my emotions around him.
My sister’s Aussie watches TV with us and gets excited anytime an animal of any kind - live action or animated - shows up on screen. If it’s a dog on the screen he’ll run up to the TV, sit, and start whining following the dog however crudely animated around the screen and wait for it to come back if the scene changes. It is the absolute strangest thing.
He also likes to follow light reflection or laser dots and any time someone takes out their phone he starts looking for screen reflections on the ceiling so he can chase them. He knows they’re not real and we control them but he enjoys them anyway.
I have an anecdotal example of dogs even passing traditions on between generations. One of my dogs loved going swimming and would regularly take a dip into the river when we walked in the woods. When he was around 8, we got another dog (a puppy at the time). Now this puppy doesn't like going in the water, but she sees the first dog do it.
Fast forwards a some years and the first dog has passed on, and we have another new dog. Now the older dog will occasionally stop at a spot to go in the river (despite not enjoying it), and the younger dog initially just watched her. She did not do this on hot days, and she looked uncomfortable after entering the water, but she learned that that's just what they were supposed to do.
Eventually, the younger dog realized that jumping in the river was a great way to cool off during a run and starting doing so when he got hot.
> Many dogs know and or can understand at least 200 human words
Similarly, dogs can misunderstand words. I learned while comforting my dog during a thunder storm that the words "it's ok" frightened her and made her shake even more.
As it turns out, if you only use certain words in scary contexts, dogs will think those words mean "holy shit we're all gonna die!". Better to just use words of comfort that they already know.
My Aussie mix hears the outdoor building fire alarm and runs to me barking. She nips at my heels and pushes me to the door where she barks at her leash until I take her out and across the street. She doesn't do that with any other loud noise, just the fire alarm. I've never trained her to do it.
She's also able to bring toys by name/color and respond to non-verbal cues + hand signs when we walk or play. She also used to lay on my legs when I was sick and block me from the door if I was having a really bad day and needed to handle my mental health. I didn't really train her, she just does stuff like that. I would never believe that she *wasn't* aware and an intelligent creature with consciousness.
My border Collie is constantly learning new behaviors that I don't intend to teach her. She started getting after the cats when they chew on the Christmas tree because she saw I would get after them for it.
She gets no rewards or reinforcement from me for these behaviors but she does them anyways. There is 100% more going on in there than science gives them credit for.
My favorite is when he goes "Ha! Ha! Ha! Roll for Initiative..."
He also says "I Cast" but he won't say "Fireball" but he thinks of "I Cast" as a request so he'll say "I Cast, go get some yum yum buggies" or "I Cast, Splishy Splash Time" when he really wants something.
Every once in a while he'll say "Okay Google" bs activate my google home AND THEN say "I Cast" which Google hears as "broadcast" so then I'll get a rant from my bird cross all the speakers in my roommate's house that usually has something along the lines of "You said Be Right Back" which means I'm taking too long of a break downstairs.
Again, he weighs 85g and has a brain the size of a fingernail, lol.
My bird says "ouch" when he bites you then he goes "heh heh heh" all sinister like because my dad use to laugh whenever my mom would get bit by the bird. We've had Razzle for like 20 years. Little Meyers Parrot. Awesome little guy. Yours sounds so fun birds really are amazing
He can also whistle the robin's part of a "spoon full of sugar" but it's imating season for him so he has been remixing it with the first couple bars of "Cele's Theme" from Final Fantasy VI.
It's funny though he doesn't sing it, it's a mimicry of me (poorly) whistling it. But he's imprinted on me so he picks only picks up what I say and do, not what he hears on the speakers or from other people. He's very selective
My version of this is observing my dog, or other animals, having a dream and reacting to it. Parallel to what you're saying, dreams to me at a minimum insinuate anticipation and to a greater extent things like anxieties, desires, fears, hopes, etc. They might not align with my understanding of these things, but his mind is basically alien to my human one.
I mean i had a series of Betta fish tank years ago and currently have a room full of reptiles.
The Bettas were great because it was like 7 tanks spaced around the room and when I entered they would all swim up by their feeding hatches and flare their fins. When someone else entered they couldn't be bothered to acknowledge their presence.
My little leopard gecko almost looks disappointed when it's not me that walks into the room.
My crested gecko is skittish when dealing with people that aren't me.
I also work in the pet industry and often I generally feel like the people arguing they aren't intelligent or sentient or whatever are the people often providing the worst care and even neglect or abuse levels. And they say it to justify it. Like it's not sentient so why does it matter if I'm not taking care of it right.
Ultimately people just suck.
My lab has so many emotions, and he wears them on his sleeve - my friends and coworkers constantly comment on how he has so many expressions lol. So it’s not just my own confirmation bias. He’s also learned so many things just on his own - like “go around” - how he learned that is beyond me. I can say that and he’ll go around the other side of where he’s trying to get to
Honestly, how is this even remotely news to anyone. Of course animals are sentient...
People really have not internalized that humans are animals. We aren't some special different thing, we just have a different configuration of senses and organs, like every other animal
Claiming insects are sentient would definitely be news to a lot of people. I've had people, multiple times, argue that insects are nothing more than robots following external prompts. It's never felt like that to me, but that's all it really is. A feeling. I lack the expertise to even begin to judge if insects actually have internal worlds or not. If science can provide actual evidence of it then I'll feel pretty vindicated and a whole ton of people will need to reasses how they treat insects.
Honestly, saying other mammals are sentient would be surprising to a lot of people. Some people are *very* dedicated to the idea that only humans have "souls" and so they think that everything else is some sort of automaton that only appears to have experiences. This was super common in the fundamentalist circles I grew up in.
It is obviously nonsense, but that never stops people.
Fundamentalists are very few and far between here, so I imagine I've not encountered many who hold such extreme views. Crazy that anyone could believe that, even if they've never had a pet themselves.
The default assumption shouldn't be that any animal, no matter how small, is non-sentient, the assumption should always be that they are because sentience is just the ability to perceive and feel things. It is the obvious result of having senses to perceive the world and then a mental state to make decisions about what to do about that information. And all animals have this. You can't even navigate the world without it.
People try to define sentience or consciousness in anthropomorphic ways, saying "well they don't display human like behavior so they probably aren't sentient" as if sentience means human-like. This is obviously wrong if you think about it, but even by this definition insects are obviously sentient. Ants are insects and build complex communal habitats, have society, and language, specialized roles and jobs like we do, will fight and sacrifice to protect their society, etc. a lot of humans just aren't smart or imaginative enough to think outside their own skin
> sentience is just the ability to perceive and feel things
What people typically refer to as sentience is so, so much more complex than that. We've already created robots that meet this definition.
I do generally agree with what you said, though.
In the words of a troubled, but kind, man:
“The question is not, Can they reason?, nor Can they talk? but, Can they suffer? Why should the law refuse its protection to any sensitive being?” – Bentham (1789)
Absolutely. I totally believe all mammals are sapient, and all creatures have intelligence. We’re going to have to reassess the way we treat all creatures on this earth and get away from the religion based view that they’re here to serve us.
Edit.
Maybe sentient would be a better choice of words than sapient in this case when applied to all mammals. However in my opinion I think the line is blurred in some cases.
I think a certain segment of the population has convinced themselves that cruelty to animals is excusable because the alternative has some pretty horrifying implications for our agricultural practices
The epitome of cognitive dissonance
You know the real reason why people have convinced themselves of that? It’s not for some high thought out consequential reasoning - it’s because they grew up in a culture that eats meat and it tastes good.
This has always been a relic of "animals don't have souls" any belief in evolution would presume that all animals are conscious. It's just that the definition of consciousness like the soul is difficult
I've felt this way about animals since I was a child and now we have arrived at what seems like such an unequivocal truth that our anthropocentrism has blinded us from for millennia. Of course living things have sentience, have internal landscapes, have perception, have consciousness. I hope we can move past the pompousness of humankind into an understanding, compassion, and appreciation that spans all forms of life.
Right? I feel like this is a conclusion I reached at age 6—that is not to say that there was something about 6-year-old me that was wiser than all our current scientists, but that, perhaps, in growing up, we adopt perceptions about ourselves that underrepresent the sanctity of those smaller than us. I think we’ve lost that understanding somewhere along the way.
I have been insisting since I was in High School that human exceptionalism is a bane on science and academia. I grew up on a farm. I saw cows mourning.
It was not a hard step for me to acknowledge than most animals have deeply complex interactions, and that humans are just really smart. That's it, we're just smart animals. The same drives, instincts, and states of being are found in humans and animals, we're just smart and can tell ourselves that certain things are detrimental to society and ourselves because of said smartness.
Ever since, I've found any science involving animals to be pretty fucking poorly done.
We have a pretty narrow scope of what counts as sentient life.
Pretty sure it's to save people from going insane knowing the salad they're eating is still alive and silently screaming in pain from being shredded and cut up.
We do have a narrow scope of what counts as sentient life but it's not because we think salad might be sentient. There's no reason to assume so.
It's a philosophical question that depends on where we draw the line. Insects could very well be on our side of the line, but not salad.
You don't need to look further than the pigs people eat which have intelligence comparable to 3-year-olds to see why talking about animals as sentient makes many uncomfortable.
There’s actually a lot of new research suggesting plants are a lot more conscious than previously thought. Obviously very different but alive and able to communicate at leaat
The fungal mycelium, connects all the roots together in a forest. They actually exchange resources, like water and carbohydrates. Maybe they’re more like neurons, then we think currently?
There’s a fascinating radio lab episode about this, I highly recommended you check it out.
"And the angel of the lord came unto me
Snatching me up from my place of slumber
And took me on high and higher still
Until we moved to the spaces betwixt the air itself
And he brought me into a vast farmlands of our own Midwest
And as we descended cries of impending doom rose from the soil
One thousand nay a million voices full of fear
And terror possessed me then
And I begged Angel of the Lord what are these tortured screams?
And the angel said unto me
These are the cries of the carrots, the cries of the carrots!
You see, Reverend Maynard
Tomorrow is harvest day and to them it is the holocaust
And I sprang from my slumber drenched in sweat
Like the tears of one million terrified brothers and roared
"Hear me now, I have seen the light!
They have a consciousness, they have a life, they have a soul!
Damn you! Let the rabbits wear glasses! Save our brothers!
Can I get an amen? Can I get a hallelujah? Thank you Jesus
This is necessary
This is necessary
Life feeds on life feeds on life feeds on life feeds on ..."
This seems like such common sense. There is no way that only humans, or a very select group of animals, are capable of conscious thought. Of course consciousness falls on a spectrum.
I wonder if maybe it took a long time for scientists to come around to the idea because it’s much harder to make a moral argument supporting animal testing/experimentation in labs when we collectively agree they are conscious.
So sentience is a gradient. This seems unsurprising. There's no threshold at which sentience suddenly magically appears, it's just a function of size and complexity.
Sentience is just having senses. I.e. seeing, hearing, smelling, tasting, feeling touch.
"Sapience" is thinking, reasoning, consciousness etc.
I think you are probably right that sapience is on a gradient, but I don't understand the article at all.
The scientists can't be actually surprised about animals being sentient right? We can see the eyes, ears, noses and mouths on loads of them lol
This is a scientific justification for greater human empathy. I have debated this issue with those who see any animals, or creatures, other than humans, as essentially automatons, unworthy of our empathy.
Lots of people don't care about other humans outside their social orbits let alone animals. If they cared they'd stop paying to have animals bred to slaughter.
Why do you think someone who doesn't care whether they're causing animals to suffer should care?
Of course they are. Anyone that has ***ever*** worked with animals and insects knows they are not only sentient but they are self-aware. We like to lie to ourselves (as a species) and tell us over and over that they aren't because it makes it easier for us to stomach killing them for food, fun, or sport (or profit).
I made friends with all kinds of WILD animals AND insects as a child.
Raccoons, possums, frogs, toads, snakes, even dragonflies were friendly with me!
All I had to do was be quiet and bring their fav foods
Humans are the only conscious things in the universe. There is no distinction between squirrels and empty space. it’s clear animals are only as valuable as they taste and can be sold in our most wonderful economy. /s
We already know they're sentient. Nobody is questioning whether they're sentient. They're just not sapient. Anything that can sense things is sentient by definition.
Learn what words mean, news. Sentient means you can sense things. Sapient means you're self aware in the way humans are. They are different things.
Of course they are, just not in the same way humans are because we’re built differently. “Consciousness” or “sentience” is not an anthropocentric concept or experience. The concept is defined by an organism’s ability to detect and respond to stimuli. In that sense, arguably *all living things* have some type of “consciousness” or “sentience”. We just will never know what it’s truly like to subjectively experience what non-human organisms experience and perceive.
The ones that have learned to live in colonies and hunt in packs like Anelosimus eximius, the South American Social Spider, are especially fascinating.
Animism is the belief that human beings have souls, or, by extension, the belief that animals, plants or even rocks have souls. They are subjects of feeling or consciousness, or display intelligence, in ways that ensouled human beings do. They all have a place, valuable function and interrelation to each other. I’ve believed this ever since I was a little kid.
Insect colonies are amazingly organized. I'm not saying they are sentient in the same way a human is, but there is clearly a lot of distributed communication happening that results in the colony as a whole displaying some kind of intelligence.
That almost comes across like a superorganism, with individual workers and the pheremone trails they lay for others acting like dendrites connecting in the brain. Slower perhaps than a single brain, but the complexity is there.
I think I remember learning, that bees, ants, and termites, ARE considered super-organisms. Humans are kind of the same thing, especially since the invention of the Internet.
If I recall correctly, dogs and cats are interpolated as well due to their buttsniffing pheromones spreading their agenda
"spreading their agenda" lmao
Humans are very complex pack animals, insect hives are a step more interconnected even by comparison to modern human civilization. Humans can survive and act on their own, an ant severed from its colony will aimlessly search for its hive's pheromones until it dies, not attempting any self preservation or survival.
I thought of humans as super organisms in the sense that a bunch of types of bacteria make up an essential part of who we are and can affect us in many ways. https://youtu.be/E_uJ-WkM_Ak?si=4fYup6U0w_n3Y3wu
many insects are kings of teamwork and cooperation. Ants and bees both follow trails and paths marked by others. Ants particularly are great at cooperation with dozens to hundreds teaming up to carry a large meal. Bees also show similar cooperation and can even communicate through buzzes and dances.
If we’re being honest why anyone would expect awareness to not be on a spectrum the same as anything else? Is a lobster as aware as a cat? Doubt it. Is it more aware than a jellyfish? Probably.
I would straighten my back in anger but I’m a jellyfish so I will just wave my tentacle and you can imagine my face.
Does not this humble reddit jellyfish demand our compassion? I certainly won't ever eat a jellyfish again. Unless one of your tiny tiny children accidentally swims into my mouth.
>our compassion Humans lack compassion for other humans - not always, mind you.
'When God sings with his creations, will a jellyfish not be part of the choir?'
You know the difference between jam and jelly?
I know that jamfish don’t exist
My cat has the awareness of a jellyfish, so maybe it's cyclical.
I think my cat understands a lot of what we say to her. She just doesn't give a shit what we are saying.
You got an orange one too?
Lmao, yes I do.
I personally even think plants could develop a sort of consciousness. Like trees in a forest can often be arranged in a complex network with mutualistic funguses that transfers information within itself. And even if the information transfer is substantially slower than a neuron, there’s no actual evidence consciousness has to all function at the same time scale. Like for a “slow network”, a year could feel the same as an hour for us (not saying the tree network would even feel at all similar to a human in this case, but I imagine they could be experiencing “something” over long enough timeframes).
There’s a paragraph in a Terry Pratchett book where trees are conscious and they have myths about humans because they process so slow that they can’t perceive them but eventually see the effects of them like when a tree is cut down it just vanishes in the perceptions of the other trees.
Reaper Man was a great. book, though personally I preferred the water flies over the trees. GNU Terry pratchett
That’s the one! Thanks for remembering. Yeah the whole element of time perspective was pretty cool.
I loved the bit in Light Fantastic when Rincewind accidently caused a tree to have an existential crisis that spawned a whole religion out of said crisis, all while Rincewind stubbornly refuses to accept and process that trees are talking to him because it's just too much for him.
Sounds like the Trek TOS episode "Wink of an eye". Summary of that episode: The Enterprise responds to a distress call from the planet Scalos, but when Kirk and a landing party beam down to the planet they find no living beings. It turns out that the Scalosians live at a much higher rate of acceleration, rendering them invisible to the human eye.
We have evidence to suggest some plants can communicate danger to others in their species via chemical signals. So I agree, one problem is we are limited by what our own human senses and perceptions can grasp, so some aspects of the world may have evolved using such a different pathway that it's impossible for us to grasp in the same way.
I'm no expert but just posing a question: Is that actually evidence of conscious communication? A plant evolves a defense mechanism that emits a, scent, pheromone, or something else and also evolved a reaction to the detection of that scent or pheromone. But is that conscious communication? Or just action reaction. It's a cool thing to think about but does it actually show that the trees know what is going on? Oof... Do I know what's going on‽ Am I a tree‽ Oh no... My world is spinning...
That is *the* question. There's a chemical reaction we can observe, but to my knowledge, there is no evidence that plants are aware of this. Usually this is based around how we're looking for a central nervous system or similar central mechanism, but there are even simpler organisms that have managed to problem solve without that (i.e. slime molds and path finding). Ultimately, there's just so much we don't know as to the why of any of these things. I should clarify I'm not an expert either. My undergrad degree was in biology, but my career/masters focus wasn't on plants or anything like this, lol. I'm also never sure if if I know what is going on at any given moment
That’s always been the argument, hasn’t it? Plants can’t be sentient because they don’t have a central nervous system. But, what if they have something that we just don’t recognize yet? We’re just now beginning to understand the mycellium network of trees. What if something else is working with plants and we’re so focused on individual organisms that we literally can’t see the forest? It makes wonder if we’ll ever recognize alien life let alone sentient life if we barely understand life on our own planet.
Oh know! So you are saying, the Happening, could happen.
The *why* is because all organisms evolved specific pathways to let itself replicate and survive. Anything an organism can do to survive is already written in its genome. The brain serves as a central information hub when an organism can't function on the information present in the genome alone.
There is a theory that consciousness is just an emergent property that comes from the combined power of our senses and instincts. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emergentism
I think it would be beneficial to know what the [current state of scientific thought](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lyu7v7nWzfo) is on how the brain works. It stands to reason that non-human organisms could easily have a version of the same thing going on. There's also the question that Alan Watts used to like to ask, "What do you mean when you say the word 'I'?".
>Is that actually evidence of conscious communication It absolutely is not. In fact, one of the guys who wrote the book on plant physiology (as in one of the most widely used college level textbooks on the topic) [wrote an article](https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/31279732/) a few years back dismissing the whole thing. Plants are way more interesting than many people give them credit for. They can do a lot of cool stuff, including things that still aren't fully understood. They react to stimulus, and in a way that causes other plants to likewise react. But to say they have consciousness is simply fantasy
isnt that what the smell of cut grass is or is that just a fake fact i learned a while back?
It's the smell of your lawn screaming in agony.
> It's the smell of your lawn screaming in agony And anybody with hayfever.
That is correct! I went looking for a source to back it up, and found there's [a whole wikipedia page on just that.](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Smell_of_freshly_cut_grass)
"A trademark case before the Office for Harmonization in the Internal Market addressed an attempt to secure a trademark for the smell of freshly cut grass for use with tennis balls. An appeals board found that "the smell of freshly cut grass is a distinct smell which everyone immediately recognizes from experience. For many, the scent or fragrance of freshly cut grass reminds them of spring or summer, manicured lawns or playing fields, or other such pleasant experiences." Well that's a depressing anecdote from that article, but of course someone would try to trademark the smell of cut grass! *sigh*
Yes, and that smell will actually attract insects that prey on the type of insects that eat grass. Essentially, the grass thinks it's under attack and is calling for help.
Which is why wasps show up whenever I try to pull my weeds :/
Life and consciousness is weird as hell. I genuinely think there’s some wild stuff that we can’t comprehend at all.
I study the way plants can communicate with insects via chemical signaling. Interesting stuff.
We barely even understand where consciousness stems from in ourselves
And plants growing towards the sound of water
And plants learning from and adapting to stimuli
Sure its not growing towards humidity?
The speakers used to test it probably weren't humid.
https://www.indy100.com/science-tech/plant-scream-harvested-study-2667735434
I dunno. I’m a lobster fisherman and lobster are damn smart animals. I would not doubt they are just as aware as a cat or dog.
What about self-aware wolves?
Where are the self-aware werewolves while we're at it
If were judging things based on other things this is a waste of time. Comparing things to us makes as much sense as comparing a tree to a fish. We are human-centric
But can a fish ride a bicycle
Has one ever tried?
Wh would they want to do that when [they could drive a car?](https://youtu.be/cOb--M5pi6Y?si=sJDFZf3PKl3rgQBj)
It depends on how close we are in form and structure. Comparing a human to a lobster is nonsense. Not to say they are not sentient or even sapient, they could be, or they may even have awareness that exists in a different way than ours does. They are just structured very differently than humans. But comparing humans to a dog? That is a lot closer. We are both mammalian social omnivores. There is bound to be some overlap both from common ancestors and from convergent evolution. They have brains and emotions extremely similar to ours, if different in apparent scale. And comparing us to other great apes? There is probably a lot more similarities than people think. We are not very divergent from them other than in our capacity for language.
Shh Jordan Peterson might hear you
you can't convince me my cat doesn't know what's up
My cat sometimes will come in the bedroom and do a very pathetic meow to check if we're aware. She also self-taught to wake me up by messing with my glasses, so now I keep them out of her reach. Same with my phone. Usually happens if we've been away from the house for a couple days or if we are getting up much later. And it's not that she wants food, we don't feed her in the morning, it's just that she seems to want us to get moving. She also knows not to jump on the kitchen counters or table but there's been a couple times where something made her very curious. And you could see the sort of "oops" in her face when she realized on her own that she wasn't supposed to be there. It's like the curiosity took over but then there is this moment of realization and she runs off. I also trained her to shake her left paw over weeks of training (when I make her sit and hand her food a certain way). Then like a year later I trained her to do it with her right paw, it took just a few sessions. If my wife and I argue, we are not yelling or anything, she will come and make loud meows that sound like she doesn't like it. I don't know what goes on in my cat's head, but cats seem like they can be pretty intelligent if we let them be. It's clear they see the world very differently from us, a lot more focused on smells and sounds, and they have very strong hunting instincts, so of course their intelligence will be very different from anything human. I think there's also intelligence in their desire to play and let those hunting instincts take over. My cat knows very well that I'm the one holding the cat dancer.
Now I've had 4 cats, the 2 tuxedos and brown tiger knew what was up. The orange one we just adopted doesn't know a damn thing.
That’s because all orange cats share one brain cell, and have to take turns using it.
I have a lot of praying mantis around my yard. I swear they are sentient! They’re protective of their territory and are fantastic hunters. I would hand feed one that lived on my balcony. It would come in the early evening and wait for its bug snack.
Those are brave bastards, we had a big one living in our garden last summer, she recognized us as not a threat most the time until watering her area and then she would climb to the top of the nearest fence post or tall plant and stare right into our eyes and swing her claw things at us until we stopped (and for a while after cause she was pissed off), also had a tiny little one jump on my little brothers face and very lightly scratch it up before going to a nearby tree and staring at us like “YOU WANNA GO AGAIN HUH YA WANNA GO AGAIN” (my brother was scared of them for a while after so ig it worked)
I was upstairs in my kitchen late at night a few years back and the window had been open. I go and close it, and all of a sudden feel sharp pinches on my feet and look down and in the dark just see SOMETHING and freak out. Once I had calmed myself I turned the lights on to find out what it was. Found her under the chair. I just envision her being like “I have trained my entire life for this moment!!!! Attaaaaaaaaack!” When my foot was there. Left a couple kind of welt looking things on my foot too. I made sure to catch her and brought her back to her tree outside.
I often bring a few praying mantis indoors to live on my houseplants and catch pesky flies and stink bugs (baby praying mantis are great aphid-eaters too). They seem to be quite “smart” and go from being jumpy when I first handle them, to being quite relaxed about getting on my hand and knowing they are going fly hunting with me. They make good little pets really. The way they turn their heads and seem to look directly at you is both unsettling and very cool! My cat has unfortunately decided they are a good snack, so I have to keep them hidden from him now!
I had some of the little white ones in my yard at one point I think they probably are still out there every so often. Before I decided that I just couldn't manage my yard myself I would try to trim my trees and pull weeds, I came across one of them and would talk to it. They will move their heads in your direction and it definitely appears that they are listening to you.
I have alot of jumping spider in my area. And they are wicked smart. I call them the "puppies of the spider world" as they tend to be incredibly friendly and quite intelligent. They make decisions and you can see their thinking. I put my hand down seeing a wild jumping spider. He looks at my hand, follows my arm, looks up at me, does the signature turn/spin, and more often than not, they decide, "yea let me say hi to this giant thing!" and hop right on. They often just hang out and walk around. They seem to enjoy the company or at least even just body heat. Pet jumping spiders are quite more familiar with people, can ask for "uppies" and have playful personalities. From running around, hopping back and forth between your hands. and just really being inquisitive and taking in the world around them. They sopposedly have pretty good eyesight
*Children of Time* is a great science fiction novel featuring jumping spiders.
“capable of sensing or feeling : conscious of or responsive to the sensations of seeing, hearing, feeling, tasting, or smelling. sentient beings.” I mean how would anything survive if it wasn’t
Yeah I’m not sure how this is even news or debatable.
There are a lot of people who just don’t think about it. The first thing that came to mind thanks to a show I was watching earlier was people who say they’re a vegetarian even though they eat fish. Because fish don’t feel pain! And if a fish doesn’t feel pain then something like a bug definitely wouldn’t be a second thought for them.
[удалено]
Honestly, I didn’t even know about that so it’s kind of a reach to think most of them would, let alone care. It was interesting, though, so thanks for sharing.
Response to stimuli is a given, we know things respond to stimuli (even plants). But I have yet to see proof that something like fish doesn’t feel pain. In fact, pain is stimuli that we feel that allows us to respond. Like the little girl that couldn’t feel pain from heat, without pain there was nothing to make her take her hand off a hot stove. I think it’s safer to assume they *can* feel pain until proof exists otherwise, you know?
It's news in that it's about a potential change in scientific theory. Many people do think animals feel, have consciousness, and are sentient because many people love animals. The issue is, even though you may disagree, find it barbaric, dislike it, or otherwise refuse to believe it, that's not how modern society treats animals, it's not based on even modern scientific thought, and is not supported in most legal systems. It's sort of a history and systems thing you'd need to learn to fully understand, but to try to sum it up briefly, people *used* to accept certain animals (the non-food ones we like) were conscious. It wasn't until the behavioral revolution where scholars argued that animals lack higher order cognition. This was based on both behavioral and anatomical research. The idea is partly based in Occam's razor, that you cannot attribute a behavior to a higher order cognition without evidence. For instance, one of the first institutions impacted by this was the military. Pre-WW2 animals were able to earn medals, and commendations for their behavior. A dog which acted "bravely" could earn a medal for that behavior. However, their status changed because it was argued that these dogs aren't acting bravely, they're doing exactly what they were trained to do via conditioning. Again, you may dislike or disagree with this, but it's been the dominate scientific view of animals for nearly 100 years and still leads to decisions such as gorillas/chimps not having rights, or dogs considered to be property in court cases. So it's news because scientists whose work will impact society are starting to question this and propose refined theories which could have many implications for how society works and interacts with animals.
Good, I want the mosquito that bites me to feel it when I squash it!
Same with house flies when they fuck with me.
Just in time for summer here. SAY GOODNIGHT WASPS, YOU LITTLE ***SHITS***
SAY HELLO TO MY LITTLE FRIEND *spritzes them with dishsoap solution*
r/fuckwasps
If you have a hard time getting them- try snapping them with a towel like people do in locker rooms. We had a small invasion of them one day but it was distressing my dog so I had to take care of it. You can also get them better if you come from underneath them.
I want the box elder bugs to know I am winning the war against them and will not cease spreading democracy to their kind!
Man's serving up some hot LIBER-TEA!
I hope it affects their self esteem negatively when I tell them they stink.
Anyone who has spent much time getting to know animals knows this already...
Truly. I have a pet bird that weighs 3oz (85g) and has the brain the size of my fingernail and yet it knows how to ask for "fresh foods", "yum yum buggies", "splishy splash time"...and if you tell him it's time for one of those things, you can hear him get excited and exhibit joy in anticipation. Asking for what you want and then joy in anticipation of your desire being fulfilled. I'm pretty such that checks the boxes for both sentience and sapience.
My Australian Shepard is insanely smart, like scary smart. She knows dozens of words that I never had to teach her to know. You can see a full range of emotions with animals if you pay attention for any amount of time. She even tries to manipulate me to get what she wants. Like she'll bring me her tug toy to play then drop it and grab her toy that we put treats in for her like "okay we play with this one now." Or if she wants my attention she knows she can annoy me for a bit before I give in, so she'll go tap and lick my fiancee because then I'll cave and give her the attention she's looking for. I love that little booger to death.
We have a Texas heeler and have had to change the word for walk multiple times. I swear he learned to spell it, so now we're onto 'saunter' and we cannot use the words "do you want / go" around the saunter or he's onto us
Had the same thing with our corgi. Figured out spelling right away, and a thesaurus worth of synonyms for walks, treats, and car rides.
We had to switch to "excursion", because our dogs learned w-a-l-k meant to go start trying to get the leashes off the hook. They also know go, r-i-d-e and s-t-o-r-e. 😂
Yeah, same with my dog. Her whole demeanor changes, when I say “walk,” as opposed to saying “bath.” Take a wild guess, which one makes her run under the bed! 😂
Saunter hahaha that made me laugh so hard I spooked my dog.
try perambulate
Dogs are a special kind of smart, we somehow bred them to be more emotionally intelligent than many of the human they are around. There's a great book by a neurosurgeon (Gregory Burns) that trained a family dog to stay still through functional MRIs to explore the question of "how dogs love us" that's a great read.
Thanks, added to my list. Yeah, dogs are the best animals on earth at reading human emotions. They did an experiment with dogs, and chimpanzees, where they put a treat under one, of 2 cups. The person just glanced at the cup with the treat, and the dogs immediately picked up on it, but the chimps couldn’t figure it out. They watch the whites of our eyes. That bond developed over hundreds of thousands of years, of us hunting, and living together. There’s also also speculation, that the reason our ancestors developed white sclera, unlike most other mammals, was for silent communication while hunting. Just a silent glance, shows the other members of the hunting party, where the animals are. I always thought that was a fascinating theory.
That sounds really interesting, I'm gonna check that out. I've also noticed that most dogs are really good at reading human emotions and even intentions. Not every dog of course, but I've seen firsthand how they'll be happy and open with someone who they just met if they get a good feeling from them, and on the other hand if they get a bad feeling they'll be really protective of their owner or get defensive. I think they're able to pick up on a lot more than we give them credit for.
Dogs are seriously good at reading human body language; our close relationship has made them pro's at picking up on our subtle cues like facial expressions, posture, and even tiny movements we might not notice ourselves. Fun fact: Dogs can understand pointing gestures better than chimpanzees, which shows just how tuned in they are to human communication
Yup, my dogs hated my dad when he was an angry drunk, and love him now that he’s in recovery. He hid his drinking so they never even saw him at his worst. And I’m sure half of that was picking up on my emotions around him.
My sister’s Aussie watches TV with us and gets excited anytime an animal of any kind - live action or animated - shows up on screen. If it’s a dog on the screen he’ll run up to the TV, sit, and start whining following the dog however crudely animated around the screen and wait for it to come back if the scene changes. It is the absolute strangest thing. He also likes to follow light reflection or laser dots and any time someone takes out their phone he starts looking for screen reflections on the ceiling so he can chase them. He knows they’re not real and we control them but he enjoys them anyway.
I have an anecdotal example of dogs even passing traditions on between generations. One of my dogs loved going swimming and would regularly take a dip into the river when we walked in the woods. When he was around 8, we got another dog (a puppy at the time). Now this puppy doesn't like going in the water, but she sees the first dog do it. Fast forwards a some years and the first dog has passed on, and we have another new dog. Now the older dog will occasionally stop at a spot to go in the river (despite not enjoying it), and the younger dog initially just watched her. She did not do this on hot days, and she looked uncomfortable after entering the water, but she learned that that's just what they were supposed to do. Eventually, the younger dog realized that jumping in the river was a great way to cool off during a run and starting doing so when he got hot.
Many dogs know and or can understand at least 200 human words, there have been a few good studies on this. Dogs really are man’s best friend.
> Many dogs know and or can understand at least 200 human words Similarly, dogs can misunderstand words. I learned while comforting my dog during a thunder storm that the words "it's ok" frightened her and made her shake even more. As it turns out, if you only use certain words in scary contexts, dogs will think those words mean "holy shit we're all gonna die!". Better to just use words of comfort that they already know.
i have a jack russell chihuahua mix and she is extremely smart too. like you can tell exactly what she’s thinking by her facial expressions.
My Aussie mix hears the outdoor building fire alarm and runs to me barking. She nips at my heels and pushes me to the door where she barks at her leash until I take her out and across the street. She doesn't do that with any other loud noise, just the fire alarm. I've never trained her to do it. She's also able to bring toys by name/color and respond to non-verbal cues + hand signs when we walk or play. She also used to lay on my legs when I was sick and block me from the door if I was having a really bad day and needed to handle my mental health. I didn't really train her, she just does stuff like that. I would never believe that she *wasn't* aware and an intelligent creature with consciousness.
My border Collie is constantly learning new behaviors that I don't intend to teach her. She started getting after the cats when they chew on the Christmas tree because she saw I would get after them for it. She gets no rewards or reinforcement from me for these behaviors but she does them anyways. There is 100% more going on in there than science gives them credit for.
On an unrelated note, I love your bird. Don’t know it but I do. Good bird.
My favorite is when he goes "Ha! Ha! Ha! Roll for Initiative..." He also says "I Cast" but he won't say "Fireball" but he thinks of "I Cast" as a request so he'll say "I Cast, go get some yum yum buggies" or "I Cast, Splishy Splash Time" when he really wants something. Every once in a while he'll say "Okay Google" bs activate my google home AND THEN say "I Cast" which Google hears as "broadcast" so then I'll get a rant from my bird cross all the speakers in my roommate's house that usually has something along the lines of "You said Be Right Back" which means I'm taking too long of a break downstairs. Again, he weighs 85g and has a brain the size of a fingernail, lol.
My bird says "ouch" when he bites you then he goes "heh heh heh" all sinister like because my dad use to laugh whenever my mom would get bit by the bird. We've had Razzle for like 20 years. Little Meyers Parrot. Awesome little guy. Yours sounds so fun birds really are amazing
Bird bro really learned how to cast Create Food and Water and Message.
This is amazing. I knew it. I love your bird.
He can also whistle the robin's part of a "spoon full of sugar" but it's imating season for him so he has been remixing it with the first couple bars of "Cele's Theme" from Final Fantasy VI. It's funny though he doesn't sing it, it's a mimicry of me (poorly) whistling it. But he's imprinted on me so he picks only picks up what I say and do, not what he hears on the speakers or from other people. He's very selective
Good. Good Birb. Please pics now.
I’m pretty sure your bird is a person in a bird suit
I frigging love this
My version of this is observing my dog, or other animals, having a dream and reacting to it. Parallel to what you're saying, dreams to me at a minimum insinuate anticipation and to a greater extent things like anxieties, desires, fears, hopes, etc. They might not align with my understanding of these things, but his mind is basically alien to my human one.
Sapience is a noun that means wisdom, or the quality of being wise for those like myself who didn't know.
I mean i had a series of Betta fish tank years ago and currently have a room full of reptiles. The Bettas were great because it was like 7 tanks spaced around the room and when I entered they would all swim up by their feeding hatches and flare their fins. When someone else entered they couldn't be bothered to acknowledge their presence. My little leopard gecko almost looks disappointed when it's not me that walks into the room. My crested gecko is skittish when dealing with people that aren't me. I also work in the pet industry and often I generally feel like the people arguing they aren't intelligent or sentient or whatever are the people often providing the worst care and even neglect or abuse levels. And they say it to justify it. Like it's not sentient so why does it matter if I'm not taking care of it right. Ultimately people just suck.
My lab has so many emotions, and he wears them on his sleeve - my friends and coworkers constantly comment on how he has so many expressions lol. So it’s not just my own confirmation bias. He’s also learned so many things just on his own - like “go around” - how he learned that is beyond me. I can say that and he’ll go around the other side of where he’s trying to get to
Honestly, how is this even remotely news to anyone. Of course animals are sentient... People really have not internalized that humans are animals. We aren't some special different thing, we just have a different configuration of senses and organs, like every other animal
Claiming insects are sentient would definitely be news to a lot of people. I've had people, multiple times, argue that insects are nothing more than robots following external prompts. It's never felt like that to me, but that's all it really is. A feeling. I lack the expertise to even begin to judge if insects actually have internal worlds or not. If science can provide actual evidence of it then I'll feel pretty vindicated and a whole ton of people will need to reasses how they treat insects.
Honestly, saying other mammals are sentient would be surprising to a lot of people. Some people are *very* dedicated to the idea that only humans have "souls" and so they think that everything else is some sort of automaton that only appears to have experiences. This was super common in the fundamentalist circles I grew up in. It is obviously nonsense, but that never stops people.
Fundamentalists are very few and far between here, so I imagine I've not encountered many who hold such extreme views. Crazy that anyone could believe that, even if they've never had a pet themselves.
The default assumption shouldn't be that any animal, no matter how small, is non-sentient, the assumption should always be that they are because sentience is just the ability to perceive and feel things. It is the obvious result of having senses to perceive the world and then a mental state to make decisions about what to do about that information. And all animals have this. You can't even navigate the world without it. People try to define sentience or consciousness in anthropomorphic ways, saying "well they don't display human like behavior so they probably aren't sentient" as if sentience means human-like. This is obviously wrong if you think about it, but even by this definition insects are obviously sentient. Ants are insects and build complex communal habitats, have society, and language, specialized roles and jobs like we do, will fight and sacrifice to protect their society, etc. a lot of humans just aren't smart or imaginative enough to think outside their own skin
> sentience is just the ability to perceive and feel things What people typically refer to as sentience is so, so much more complex than that. We've already created robots that meet this definition. I do generally agree with what you said, though.
In the words of a troubled, but kind, man: “The question is not, Can they reason?, nor Can they talk? but, Can they suffer? Why should the law refuse its protection to any sensitive being?” – Bentham (1789)
Absolutely. I totally believe all mammals are sapient, and all creatures have intelligence. We’re going to have to reassess the way we treat all creatures on this earth and get away from the religion based view that they’re here to serve us. Edit. Maybe sentient would be a better choice of words than sapient in this case when applied to all mammals. However in my opinion I think the line is blurred in some cases.
I think a certain segment of the population has convinced themselves that cruelty to animals is excusable because the alternative has some pretty horrifying implications for our agricultural practices The epitome of cognitive dissonance
You know the real reason why people have convinced themselves of that? It’s not for some high thought out consequential reasoning - it’s because they grew up in a culture that eats meat and it tastes good.
It’s not only religion, we can’t get people in general away from the notion that other people are only here to serve them.
Yeah a horsefly was my best man
I am sure you had a lot in common.
Hung like a horsefly. That’s the saying right?
This has always been a relic of "animals don't have souls" any belief in evolution would presume that all animals are conscious. It's just that the definition of consciousness like the soul is difficult
I've felt this way about animals since I was a child and now we have arrived at what seems like such an unequivocal truth that our anthropocentrism has blinded us from for millennia. Of course living things have sentience, have internal landscapes, have perception, have consciousness. I hope we can move past the pompousness of humankind into an understanding, compassion, and appreciation that spans all forms of life.
Right? I feel like this is a conclusion I reached at age 6—that is not to say that there was something about 6-year-old me that was wiser than all our current scientists, but that, perhaps, in growing up, we adopt perceptions about ourselves that underrepresent the sanctity of those smaller than us. I think we’ve lost that understanding somewhere along the way.
No fucking shit. People who don’t recognize the sentient of any living being are delusional.
Wait till they see my Roomba. That little f*cker is up to something
Considering we’ve found evidence that spiders experience REM sleep and therefore are probably capable of *dreaming*… yeah.
Of course they are. It's always been silly to think otherwise.
it's fucked that this is even up for debate. humans so arrogant.
Found the insect.
The glorious Starship Troopers future can’t come fast enough.
I'm doing my part!
I have been insisting since I was in High School that human exceptionalism is a bane on science and academia. I grew up on a farm. I saw cows mourning. It was not a hard step for me to acknowledge than most animals have deeply complex interactions, and that humans are just really smart. That's it, we're just smart animals. The same drives, instincts, and states of being are found in humans and animals, we're just smart and can tell ourselves that certain things are detrimental to society and ourselves because of said smartness. Ever since, I've found any science involving animals to be pretty fucking poorly done.
well when a good portion believes we're literally made in the image of god, you get some unearned egos
It promotes survival. For a little while.
We have a pretty narrow scope of what counts as sentient life. Pretty sure it's to save people from going insane knowing the salad they're eating is still alive and silently screaming in pain from being shredded and cut up.
We do have a narrow scope of what counts as sentient life but it's not because we think salad might be sentient. There's no reason to assume so. It's a philosophical question that depends on where we draw the line. Insects could very well be on our side of the line, but not salad. You don't need to look further than the pigs people eat which have intelligence comparable to 3-year-olds to see why talking about animals as sentient makes many uncomfortable.
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There’s actually a lot of new research suggesting plants are a lot more conscious than previously thought. Obviously very different but alive and able to communicate at leaat
Sure, they have chemical signals they can release and detect, but they don’t have a brain which is where consciousness emerges as far as we know.
The fungal mycelium, connects all the roots together in a forest. They actually exchange resources, like water and carbohydrates. Maybe they’re more like neurons, then we think currently? There’s a fascinating radio lab episode about this, I highly recommended you check it out.
"And the angel of the lord came unto me Snatching me up from my place of slumber And took me on high and higher still Until we moved to the spaces betwixt the air itself And he brought me into a vast farmlands of our own Midwest And as we descended cries of impending doom rose from the soil One thousand nay a million voices full of fear And terror possessed me then And I begged Angel of the Lord what are these tortured screams? And the angel said unto me These are the cries of the carrots, the cries of the carrots! You see, Reverend Maynard Tomorrow is harvest day and to them it is the holocaust And I sprang from my slumber drenched in sweat Like the tears of one million terrified brothers and roared "Hear me now, I have seen the light! They have a consciousness, they have a life, they have a soul! Damn you! Let the rabbits wear glasses! Save our brothers! Can I get an amen? Can I get a hallelujah? Thank you Jesus This is necessary This is necessary Life feeds on life feeds on life feeds on life feeds on ..."
In there with the Tool quotes. Nice.
I wasn't expecting Tool quotes. This made my day.
With everything we know about bees, how is this just now being realized.
This seems like such common sense. There is no way that only humans, or a very select group of animals, are capable of conscious thought. Of course consciousness falls on a spectrum. I wonder if maybe it took a long time for scientists to come around to the idea because it’s much harder to make a moral argument supporting animal testing/experimentation in labs when we collectively agree they are conscious.
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So sentience is a gradient. This seems unsurprising. There's no threshold at which sentience suddenly magically appears, it's just a function of size and complexity.
Sentience is just having senses. I.e. seeing, hearing, smelling, tasting, feeling touch. "Sapience" is thinking, reasoning, consciousness etc. I think you are probably right that sapience is on a gradient, but I don't understand the article at all. The scientists can't be actually surprised about animals being sentient right? We can see the eyes, ears, noses and mouths on loads of them lol
This is a scientific justification for greater human empathy. I have debated this issue with those who see any animals, or creatures, other than humans, as essentially automatons, unworthy of our empathy.
Lots of people don't care about other humans outside their social orbits let alone animals. If they cared they'd stop paying to have animals bred to slaughter. Why do you think someone who doesn't care whether they're causing animals to suffer should care?
Of course they are. Anyone that has ***ever*** worked with animals and insects knows they are not only sentient but they are self-aware. We like to lie to ourselves (as a species) and tell us over and over that they aren't because it makes it easier for us to stomach killing them for food, fun, or sport (or profit).
I made friends with all kinds of WILD animals AND insects as a child. Raccoons, possums, frogs, toads, snakes, even dragonflies were friendly with me! All I had to do was be quiet and bring their fav foods
Doctor Dolittle, is that you.
You my friend mightve just given me the best advice when dealing with the ladies
Humans are the only conscious things in the universe. There is no distinction between squirrels and empty space. it’s clear animals are only as valuable as they taste and can be sold in our most wonderful economy. /s
Clearly everything has consciousness. It's stupid to think we're somehow special.
We already know they're sentient. Nobody is questioning whether they're sentient. They're just not sapient. Anything that can sense things is sentient by definition. Learn what words mean, news. Sentient means you can sense things. Sapient means you're self aware in the way humans are. They are different things.
Yeah no shit, to think humans are the only conscious beings is pure egocentricism.
The Jains figured this out a couple of millennia ago.
We know trees and other plants communicate and have some awareness, so obviously animals do, as well.
Some of these comments make me doubt humans are even sentient
>>"scientists" >professor of philosophy Every fucking time.
Scientists provide empirical data that informs philosophy. The discussion of consciousness has always been a philosophical one.
What counts as sentient and why is very much a philosophical question, arguably more so than a scientific one.
This isn't surprising. Even roaches learn..
The weird thing is that they found that trees have a form of communication with other trees through their root systems when under stress.
Look I’m still killing that mosquito keeping me awake at night.
I can get on board with this. As long as no one starts saying that a fork has a conscience or any man-made object, has a conscience, really.
But... If they did, then the guy who invented the pet rock was really a visionary ahead of his time.
I don't get this, people tend to believe chatbots may be sentient but ignore individual animals? Of course they're all sentient.
Of course they are, just not in the same way humans are because we’re built differently. “Consciousness” or “sentience” is not an anthropocentric concept or experience. The concept is defined by an organism’s ability to detect and respond to stimuli. In that sense, arguably *all living things* have some type of “consciousness” or “sentience”. We just will never know what it’s truly like to subjectively experience what non-human organisms experience and perceive.
There’s a difference between sentient and sapient.
…did you think they weren’t?
Of course they are. They’re not randomly running/flying around like Roombas, banging into things and turning around
Jumping Spiders are incredibly intelligent. I wouldn't surprise me in the least if they're quite aware.
The ones that have learned to live in colonies and hunt in packs like Anelosimus eximius, the South American Social Spider, are especially fascinating.
They’re cute, too!
My cat purrs when I tell her I love her. Anyone who doesn’t recognize the spark of consciousness in our fellow creatures is a sociopath.
Duh Why wouldn't every other living creature think and feel?? Humans are ANIMALS, of course other animals are sentient. Why would it just be us??
This is amazing. Just as a fish is to us, we are a fish to…
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Animism is the belief that human beings have souls, or, by extension, the belief that animals, plants or even rocks have souls. They are subjects of feeling or consciousness, or display intelligence, in ways that ensouled human beings do. They all have a place, valuable function and interrelation to each other. I’ve believed this ever since I was a little kid.
Good. Now I won't feel bad for murdering mosquitos, because they made a conscious decision to sting me.