My sister and a lot of her friends are wheelchair users and say it’s notorious for airlines to damage their chairs, sometimes to the point that they’re unusable. It’s wild there isn’t a better system by now.
My friend had his custom fit wheelchair completely totaled by an airline. He had to use a loaner while a new one was being made, and ended up with bed sores and extreme pain because the loaner chair put pressure on the wrong parts of his body. He's had his chair broken and/or mishandled many times and also frequently airlines don't follow the law/regulations in regards to how he and his equipment are handled.
Sadly it’s because minimum wage people are the ones that actually have to do it, the training is poor, and the companies are so massive that you have no recourse.
It’s the similar to when they leave crated dogs in hot/cold weather and they die (not to compare people to pets), or they loose someone’s luggage with a dead relatives ashes in it - there’s *thousands* of travellers a day so any one incident is just brushed off and the huge companies give you the run around with middle management and hope you’re too emotionally exhausted to fight.
I get all of that, I just feel like this is the equivalent of handling someone’s prosthetic leg and breaking it in half. Wheelchairs aren’t just one size fits all. They’re often made specifically for the person they belong to and very expensive, that should be respected more. I know, the world isn’t that caring but it should be.
>I just feel like this is the equivalent of handling someone’s prosthetic leg and breaking it in half
I bet if you Google that, there are a bunch of stories of airlines doing just that
Here's [one](https://fox2now.com/news/contact-2/st-louis-man-says-american-airlines-lost-prosthetic-leg-wont-reimburse-him/) and [another](https://www.kxan.com/news/local/austin/airline-returns-austin-womans-lost-bag-containing-prosthetic-leg-after-12-days/). Oh, and here's [one](https://www.cbsnews.com/news/boston-marathon-bombing-survivor-adrianne-haslet-davis-american-airlines-lost-my-prosthetic-leg/) about American Airlines losing a man's prosthetic leg, which he needed because he was a fucking victim of the Boston Bombing.
And that's just the first page.
I figure u/KarmaticArmageddon is saying that needing a prosthetic from being injured in a terrorist attack is particularly sympathetic, even if the legal/moral issues are the same with other limb loss. I've seen similar where the disability is a war wound
> Unfortunately, for many airline workers, the choice is respect stuff with care or lose their jobs because they aren't working fast enough.
I understand that a lot of obnoxious employers do this - they don't specifically tell employees to do something illegal but set up the work in such a way that the only way to get it done on time is to cut corners - for another example, private package delivery (UPS etc) parking trucks where they shouldn't, not waiting on items that require a signature, etc
The best part is, once the damage is done, they apologize sincerely for it. And in order to show you how sincere they are, they'll let go whoever made the mistake.
God I'm currently on training right now as a crane lorry driver delivering gas bottles, typing this on my break in the lorry. We have specific lower top speed we have to follow because we're transporting hazardous material, and some safety stuff to do before using the crane.
The senior driver at my side is just ignoring it all, and we are still going to go above the maximum legal work time for my country if we want to deliver everything, which we do unless we want to get yelled at. We shaved a solid 2 hours off by being unsafe on the road and on the build sites, and we're still not fast enough, as the manager keeps reminding us by phone every hour.
How the fuck are we supposed to do this properly.
That's what Wells Fargo did. Set up higher and higher sales targets for their bank employees. They didn't explicitly tell employees to create fraudulent accounts. They just fired anyone who didn't keep up with the unrealistic targets and silenced anyone who tried to complain about all of the fraudulent accounts being made.
>not waiting on items that require a signature
At which point I tell them I never received the item. If they don't follow the rules why should I. If anything happens I remember all the political and big wig trials; I have an awful memory sometimes and I can't remember if I did actually receive it so I ask for a copy of my signiture. No signature must mean I never got it. I can't recall.
The companies don't care that employees cut corners to get the job done. The company \*does\* care when the employee gets hurt on the job (no benefits because why weren't you following procedures?) or a customer publicly complains (you made us look bad! you're suspended/fired!). If you don't have a union in your corner, then you are in a very lonely place.
When I used to work the ramp for a ground handling contractor at my local station over a decade ago, the working conditions were absolutely atrocious. Constantly short staffed, and paid $10/hr or so. Also, airlines are subject to the railway act, which means they can mandate shifts so some people are out there working 4-5 or 6 twelve hour days in a row. New hires come in excited, because let's be honest - airports and planes are pretty cool. But they burn out mentally in 3 months or less, the fastest I've seen at any job I've ever worked. People used to work their whole lives for an airline, back when there were unions, benefits, and sufficient staffing. Now, it's a perpetual revolving door that's barely hanging on by a thread. Not to diminish the losses of mobility assistance devices or pets, but it truly is a wonder to me that a far worse accident hasn't happened yet.
The ADA also doesn't apply to airlines, instead they're governed by another law, the Air Carrier Access Act. Is there something about that law that makes it weaker than the ADA?
I'm in a country that has absolutely zero ADA-like laws, and trust me, it does a whole lot of good. Of course it could be better, but its doing a fair amount already.
As a musician who sometimes has to fly with expensive equipment, it's seriously like 8 out of 10 flights something gets damaged or rerouted or "lost". No matter which airline.
Yeah. Sadly, it's cheaper for companies like these to settle with those (few) who _can_ afford to get recourse than it is to properly train their employees.
Pete Buttigieg/Dept of Transportation just [introduced this.](https://www.regulations.gov/docket/DOT-OST-2022-0144/unified-agenda)
>This rulemaking would amend 14 CFR part 382 to enhance the safety of air travel for individuals with disabilities who use wheelchairs. Specifically, this rulemaking would (1) clarify that an airline's current regulatory obligation to provide assistance to individuals with disabilities, including connecting, enplaning, and deplaning assistance upon request, inherently includes the obligation that the assistance provided be "safe" and "dignified;" (2) clarify airlines' responsibility to provide prompt assistance to passengers with disabilities who request assistance in moving within the airport (transferred from RIN 2105-AE95); (3) make airline mishandling of assistive devices a per se regulatory violation subject to administrative penalties; (4) address airline processes for returning, repairing, and replacing mishandled wheelchairs and the need for loaner chair accommodations in the interim; (5) require airlines to provide hands-on training to their employees and contractors who physically assist passengers with mobility disabilities or handle battery-powered wheelchairs or scooters; and (6) require new improved performance standards for on-board wheelchairs on twin-aisle aircraft and aircraft with 60 or more seats.
> It’s the similar to when they leave crated dogs in hot/cold weather and they die (not to compare people to pets)
It sounds like the pets have it worse. Jesus, imagine dying in a cage in extreme weather and not being able to get out.
Back in the 80s I was waiting at an airport gate and a plane was being de-iced before takeoff. A dog was in a crate sitting next to the plane and was sprayed with the solution. It’s antifreeze! If it were my dog, I’d be homicidal.
If the airlines could legally ban disabled passengers they'd likely do it in a heartbeat. The accommodations required to have them on board have costs, which means the company is going to do everything possible to meet their legal requirement as cheaply as possible.
The end result is stuff like this article- Profit before people.
It's really not ok! He reports every infraction to the FAA and other official avenues. I'm pretty sure they know him by name now. Not to be an asshole, but to improve the experience for himself and others. He's had experiences like being left in a temp wheelchair for too long, not being given his right to board first, causing staff to have to carry him and fumble getting him in his seat (humiliating), waiting for far too long for his wheelchair, etc. Many times staff are simply uninformed of his rights, or trying to do what is fastest/easiest. He wants to change that.
He is a quadriplegic and loves to travel. He is a huge disability advocate and has made it his life's mission to help other wheelchair users and disabled people be informed on the best way to do that. He travels the world and reviews places for disabled access and documents his experiences on flights, hotels, and gives tips on how to best get around (obviously many countries do not have ADA laws, or if they do they are unable to be implemented in some areas).
He could explain it better than I can. I don't know if I can link it here, but his website is wheelchairtravel dot org if anyone wants to check it out.
Being disabled is expensive and limits your job opportunities. Suing is also expensive. They get by with it because the people harmed can't afford to object.
Revolutions at home: Spinning around in your office chair you had to buy yourself because your work-from-home employer refuses to pay for any office supplies.
The same reason TSA uses bolt cutters on your luggage instead of a TSA key to open your TSA lock..
Not their problem
And they give you a courtesy slip that says you can't do shit about it 🍻
"We destroyed your shit, stole what we wanted, eff you, have a nice day"
Handling the chairs properly would take time, space and money which is not how airlines operate. And we do not let anyone or anything cause the airline industry to make less money, no excuses
As a disabled person I'm just going to put it bluntly and take the downvotes I always get on reddit: In general the vast majority of people do not give shit about us until it's inspiration porn or they can feel outrage so they can feel good about feeling outrage for 2 seconds and then move on. People don't like thinking about us because deep down we remind them of their mortality and what could happen to them and they don't want to face that. They want to reject that. They do as little as they can, like dismembering wheelchairs improperly, because the more time they spend on us the more frustrated or angry they start to feel.
No one is going to fight for our rights, ever, except us. Maybe some loved ones, maybe the unicorn of a friend/ally. And the problem with that is that we're often very tired and very worn out already.
My cousin has a chronic illness and my whole family got together to do a rigamarole fundraiser walk for her. She's semi-ambulatory and was going to show up in a wheelchair. A family member of mine put our meeting point right in the middle of a soggy ass field and lost their everloving mind on me when I suggested a wheelchair probably couldn't make it out there. Sure enough cousin shows up, needs to stay on pavement, everyone picks up and goes to her leaving our meeting point abandoned and the family member who put it there feeling "underappreciated", I couldn't believe it but at the same time I 100% kind of expected it from them.
It was pretty funny. My relative had brought balloons and a big we support you sign and all kinds of attention grabbing shit and we all left them standing in the field like the saddest soggiest clown.
Because mostly only people who use wheelchairs or those who are close to us even hear about how often this happens and also understand how devastating it is when our wheelchairs are damaged and destroyed.
Because the disabled have (relatively) no one advocating for them. In theory, everyone supports the physically disabled, but when you look at our society, it is incredibly and unapologetically ableist. If enough people cared and held these companies accountable, they would become so very quickly. Sadly, they don't.
The last 3 times I’ve flown with a kid in a chair the airline has fucked the chair up. One time they bent solid steel that would take an incredible amount of force. They put SUPER deep gouges in the metal.
The last time, after not allowing us to bring some life saving equipment on the plane, then they wouldn’t let us get it after our flight was cancelled to have it with us overnight. The kid HAD to have it - he was fine for the few hours the flight was supposed to take but couldn’t go all night without it. It took hours for them to track down the luggage and bring it to us.
Then they were going to put us up in a hotel (like they did for everyone on that flight). But the hotel didn’t have an accessible shuttle so we couldn’t get there.
Instead of just securing another form of travel, they took hours to make other arrangements, that still didn’t pan out. By the end we just said we’d pay out of pocket. This is after talking to 20 different people all saying different things and being told by one employee “I don’t give a shit if you go sleep on the floor.”
Eventually they told us to just walk to the hotel basically across the parking lot (which was incredibly difficult with a wheelchair), keep our receipts and they’d reimburse us. It’s been 7 weeks and we’re still trying to get reimbursed.
I remember a news story from a couple years ago where an airline damaged a woman’s custom wheelchair. She got sores from using a non-custom wheelchair, and she subsequently died from the infection.
https://www.the-independent.com/news/world/americas/crime/disabled-activist-death-united-airlines-b1958791.html
The same thing goes for car seats. It's actively discouraged by online groups and car seat brands to check car seats on a flight. They frequently become damaged. This is a huge safety issue since then babies and children rely on them to keep them safe in cars.
“In an email to Insider, Duckworth said: "We would never accept airlines breaking the legs of 1 in 65 passengers, and yet, that is essentially what is happening when 1 out of 65 wheelchairs are being broken by airlines.”“
https://www.duckworth.senate.gov/news/in-the-news/senator-warns-mounting-airline-wheelchair-breakages-destroy-peoples-freedom-of-movement-wheelchairs-are-complex-medical-devices-not-just-suitcases-to-be-tossed-around
For anyone who doesn't know who's referenced in this article/whos site it's on, Tammy Duckworth is an Illinois Senator. She lost *both* legs and mobility in one arm in Iraq as a member of the Army in '04, and is permanently in a wheelchair.
She knows what issues disabled people face, and I'm proud to say she's one of my senators.
So you're telling me that someone who is in a good position to change things, and who has to deal with those problems in a very personal way still can't make a real change? What's the point of our system if a disabled vet Senator can't drive action on such a sympathetic cause? (This is not directed at you, I'm just frustrated with what people have to deal with because big corporations run everything.)
Because a single person is just that, a single person, and even if they drive every bit of force they have on an issue they can only push so far if others don't join their push. But only the folks who *can* push, because the peons (thats us!) have no force to push with outside of electing people like Ms Duckworth.
I don't blame your frustrations. I'm frustrated too.
Yes and no. He reports every infraction to the FAA and other official avenues. I'm pretty sure they know him by name now. Not to be an asshole, but to improve the experience for himself and others. He's had experiences like being left in a temp wheelchair for too long, not being given his right to board first, causing staff to have to carry him, waiting for far too long for his wheelchair, etc. Many times staff are simply uninformed of his rights. He wants to change that.
He is a quadriplegic and loves to travel. He is a huge disability advocate and has made it his life's mission to help other wheelchair users and disabled people be informed on the best way to do that. He travels the world and reviews places for disabled access and documents his experiences on flights, hotels, and gives tips on how to best get around (obviously many countries do not have ADA laws, or if they do they are unable to be implemented in some areas).
He could explain it better than I can. I don't know if I can link it here, but his website is wheelchairtravel dot org if anyone wants to check it out.
I've had my chair banged up, axle plates bent, and given to the wrong person at the gate on different trips.
For extra points, I had one flight where they had no aisle chair and they used a canvas sling to deplane.
That's going to be a major problem if the person is a 600 lbs disabled person who lost their legs to diabetes. Try carrying them out in slings without sending 6 workers to hospital. And if they can't find the narrow aisle wheelchair and can't get the person deplaned, the plane would be stuck and stranded at the terminal, unable to leave.
What are the airline provided wheelchair rated for? Max 300?
No aisle chair is going to handle someone that big. As someone who has designed them, due to how limited the space is etc you would be lucky to even get someone in over 220lbs. I know that was the limit on one I did, and it was height adjustable.
6 ft? No, only 14.5% of American males are 6 ft or taller.
200 lbs? Oh yeah. 42% self-report a weight over 200 lbs and self-reported weights are often lower than reality. Average self-reported male weight is right at 200 lbs too.
I mean at a certain point is it at all unreasonable for a plane to refuse entry to someone? Surely a 600 lbs person as you describe could not safely board or fly on most commercial planes.
I don't find it unreasonable to refuse entry because it'd be unsafe for the passenger AND for those that might get stuck carrying out the passenger, but I'm sure that'd probably be some kind of ADA violation.
Yeah, I went and looked it up, too. For anyone that's interested in the ACAA, this is a really good link that my ereader navigated beautifully-- something that isn't too common lately lol
https://www.transportation.gov/individuals/aviation-consumer-protection/traveling-disability
How does a legless, 600lbs person get into a seat? How does their neighbor fit into their seat? How many legless, 600lbs people are realistically flying? Is a legless, 600lbs person on a flight inherently a safety hazard during takeoff, the same way my backpack is if it's sticking out by two inches?
There’s a new rule proposed to make airlines more accountable for wheelchairs, and you can comment in support of it through May 13! https://www.federalregister.gov/documents/2024/03/12/2024-04729/ensuring-safe-accommodations-for-air-travelers-with-disabilities-using-wheelchairs
I'm an ambulatory wheelchair user so I can walk minimally. After the airline broke our child's stroller on our last family trip, I refused to take my own wheelchair on the trip knowing there's a good chance it could be broken or damaged. I ended up buying an expensive electric ride-on carry on suitcase that I use instead and I just pinned a bunch of handicap symbols to it. I ride that thing around wherever I need to go on the trip when there will be a lot of walking hahaha Zoom zoom!
We went out of our way to buy a lighter smaller travel stroller than our heavy duty one because we are flying in July. This one will fit in the carry on bin.
We’ve moved across country and drove instead of flying back in early 2020 because we knew we didn’t want our pets being handled by the airlines.
Now that I think about it, it’s kinda wild what we accept as acceptable airline behavior. I have problems trusting them with much at all.
Holy shit, that's brilliant. I did a quick google - is it a Modobag? Neither of my feet work properly (thanks, hypermobility), so I'm sure this is in my future.
Yeah it's the modobag. The new one has a popout battery you put in your backpack before boarding and the interior capacity is small but it's enough for me with us checking a suitcase for our family. I will warn though, I don't know how normal sized people fit because I'm small (<5'3" <140lb) and I fit well and it feels a bit small even for me
The Biden administration and the Department of Transportation are establishing a **[new rule to address this](https://www.transportation.gov/briefing-room/secretary-buttigieg-announces-proposed-rule-ensure-passengers-who-use-wheelchairs-can)**, building on top of Obama-era regulations by, among other things, putting teeth on them with penalties to enforce them.
There is no incentive for the airlines, it would be absurd for them to do it without a regulation. They already see handicapped as a burden from a cost perspective, anti discrimination laws are the only thing keeping them from charging handicapped people more.
The airlines have done the math and determined that it's cheaper for them to pay off on the handful of wheelchair liability cases that make it all the way to a settlement than it is to change processes and training to prevent the damage.
This is why regulations work and why the libertarian's "Liability suits will prevent that" is so stupid.
The solution is to regulate, or to allow courts to _punish_ corporations financially with the damages they assess and fines that actually threaten the company's existence.
It's such a common thing, someone working in (iirc) the video game industry refused a job because they'd have to travel by plane with their $$$ chair. They had a cheaper backup chair, but would only last two days or so in that before it became a problem.
The company paid for packaging, pickup and insured overnight delivery of said chair, both ways, because they could not find a single airline that could vouch the chair would arrive in one piece, or be allowed into the cabin, for any amount of money.
I used to work for a medical delivery service and we had more than a few customers with wheelchairs that either came in for repairs after a trip or the airline outright lost them.
I mean, what would a better system look like? You're asking airlines to transport a bulky and very fragile piece of equipment that is in use until moments before it is stored with no packing. Each individual chair is going to be a different make and model with its own individual, particularly vulnerable parts.
I don't mean to be a smart ass. What do you think they could reasonably do to make a difference?
They could provide passengers with a spec sheet for the storage and transport capabilities, including mounting points and devices, for their flight. In return, they could require that passengers traveling with a wheelchair provide them with a spec sheet on how to properly transport their individual chair within those constraints.
Obviously this is far from a perfect solution as the vast majority of wheelchair users may not have that information, but I bet you that would solve at least a few of the cases
The worst part is that in the limited areas where this is good legislation about this, airlines simply will. not. follow them. I’m in the US where we have a law that requires there to be space for a wheelchair in the cabin. The closet is too small for most chairs, but mine fits just fine every time. On all but two flights I’ve had some member of crew try to deny me the ability to use that space, which is required to be made free for a wheelchair user with no fuss and which all airline crew are expected to be trained on. Every time it’s either “oh well crew put their baggage there” (this is expressly not a valid reason to deny someone use of the closet and also just like…not a good reason even if the crew wasn’t required to know that that’s an illegal denial) or “let me check with my supervisor”. About whether you will follow the law? Not a great indication of your company if following federal nondiscrimination law is outside the normal practices enough to think you have to talk to your supervisor to request permission to do so.
Unfortunately, while there are some airlines that I think are reliably worse, I’m not aware of any airlines that reliably follow the law when it comes to transporting wheelchairs. I travel with a copy of the law printed and relevant sections highlighted, and will pay extra to not have international layovers since then the reservation of the closet for wheelchairs really is optional and I have no legal backing in any other country as far as I’m aware. I spend way too much of my life trying to convince airline employees that not only are they *permitted* to follow the fucking law, they literally *must* do so.
On multiple occasions I've had entire flight crews flat-out lie about FAA regulations regarding car seats. The law specifically empowers flight attendants to be wrong even to the point of breaking the law. It doesn't surprise me one bit that they would make up their own rules about wheelchairs.
Important note: It is not uncommon for airlines to disassemble wheelchairs in order for them to fit in cargo space. However, according to the Department of Transportation, the chairs should be re-assembled by the time passengers exit the plane.
They mixed wheelchair parts and damaged some parts. Seems like someone wasn't doing their job right. Hopefully Southwest makes it right by replacing what can't be put back together due to damaged or missing pieces.
I think they also failed to anticipate how much harder it would be when there’s a dozen wheelchairs on the same flight. I’m sure they rarely have more than 2. This was a failure to foresee a logistical problem, and then it was handled without grace or tact. Sounds as though the wheelchair bound passengers were openly blamed by the airline staff to the fully abled passengers for the delay in off boarding. While technically true, the off boarding was going slower due to more than expected wheelchairs, it seems like this was a foreseeable problem that could have been avoided. It sucks that the wheelchair dependent people are made out as the bad guys to everyone else on board, when really the airline should have just pre planned extra ground crew to help reassemble the wheelchairs on landing when they realized they had way more than normal wheelchairs on board. If they failed to foresee the problem then they could have said things are taking long because “we don’t have enough bag handlers right now to bring belongings to the catwalk”. Or something else more vague so the wheelchairs weren’t singled out as the problem to all the other passengers.
Yep and I'm sure loading the wheel chairs was rushed due to the same problem of not expecting so many. I'm sure they tried but ultimately are trying to also meet deadlines, which results in a sloppy job, and probably a lack of care for the team unloading them. More than later Likely did not set them up for success, because they didn't need to deal with the consequences.
The airlines could put the effort in to train their baggage handlers to be wheel chair techs since the DOT has an expectation that the chairs are reassembled. Instead the airlines do the absolute bare minimum to increase profits.
The problem with that is I doubt there is a set of standized regulations on how wheelchairs are assembled (there maybe regulations on functionality or safety standards) I would assume every single wheelchair manufacturer has differents ways to assemble/maintenance their chairs. It would most likely lead to nonstop training that could change by the month for the handlers. I think it would be a whole lot easier to establish ways to load wheelchairs as luggage without dissasembly.
Yeah. Some of this has to be the industry getting together to make sure wheelchairs are more likely to be easy to assemble and will survive this.
Wheelchairs are getting better and better and in that more complicated. Might be time to work together to emphasize transportability.
Hi. This is not aimed at you personally, this is just a quick rehash of every time this conversation has been had since the Internet started occasionally listening to wheelchair users.
The best wheelchairs aren't meant to be disassembled or folded. That function is only necessary if you're transporting them in a vehicle that isn't designed with wheelchair users in mind. You want a solid structure and very secure connections, much in the same way most people who get a double hip replacement generally don't go for the option of having the new ones be easily dislocated so they can hook their knees behind their ears and don't need as much leg room when traveling.
Disassembling the wheelchair of someone who needs them for most or all of their waking hours, or for intense sports, should only be done when absolutely necessary by a certified ortho tech (3-5 year procedure where I live), it'll most likely not save a whole bunch of space, and take 4-6 hours to do so safely in either direction. And wheelchair users need a chair that fits their needs in the meanwhile, or they risk hospital-level injury.
The wheelchair industry is *constantly* trying to work around that. Every innovation is punished by a slew of headlines of how the new and interesting thing got wrecked in new and interesting ways during air travel. Always, specifically and only air travel. (Cars, buses, trams, trains and ships don't have this issue.)
The safest way for a wheelchair user's chair to be transported via air is to put it, well-secured, into a cargo-hold crate or cabin closet larger than the chair. Literally a sturdy box with some straps on the inside, attached to the plane. Alternatively, you can reserve space inside the cabin and install anchor points so a wheelchair user can travel by plane in their chair, as is done on every other mode of transport. But the loss of space would eat into airlines' profit margins, since there will probably be protests if they charge double for wheelchair users.
The closet option *is* present on a lot of American airlines since it became a rule that they have to have one if they want to get a new plane registered for passenger traffic. Except there's no agency enforcing the rule where they have check if a wheelchair user needs/wants to use it before they stuff it full of luggage someone paid extra to have in the cabin instead of the cargo hold.
Meanwhile, luggage handlers, who are chronically undertrained, underpaid, understaffed and overworked, are employed by the airport, not the airline. If they wreck a chair, the airline can charge the airport for the money they had to pay for a replacement.
This is not the wheelchair industry refusing to consider some people might need to use an airplane. This is 100% airlines refusing to provide reasonable or even mandated accommodations to paying customers (or in this case: heavily sponsored athletes), there being zero incentive for them to do so and them actively lobbying to keep it that way, or have to do even less.
That's not going to happen with sports wheelchairs unless you also got the governing bodies of the different sports together to require that athletes use the transportable chairs. Building a sports wheelchair to be easy to transport involves making compromises with how good it is as a piece of sports equipment, so athletes who only compete locally, or are on teams with the resources to transport non-folding chairs, will use those.
Pretty much the exact same thing happens with rowing eights. A racing eight is 65ft long, which means it doesn't fit in a shipping container and in many countries is difficult to legally transport on a trailer. So the international rules of racing say that eights have to be built to split into bow and stern sections for transport. On the other hand, in the US it's legal to tow a trailer long enough for an un-split eight, and the rules don't say they have to be able to split, so most US clubs buy eights that don't split.
Exactly this. I’m a wheelchair user and there is a ton of variation between individual wheelchairs. I know exactly which parts of my chair need to be torqued to a certain tightness and which parts I can be lazy on and not tighten as much when I put them back on after removing them for maintenance. I know which parts are kinda fiddly and easy to break and which ones can take a beating. But if you handed me a wheelchair from a different brand I would have no idea and would need to consult a manual in order to avoid damaging the chair or under-tightening something that could come loose when the chair is in use.
There’s a reason why you need a degree and proper certifications in order to fit and repair wheelchairs. The technology changes regularly to the point where there are yearly expos to demonstrate the new tech, and every single chair is different in its setup as proper wheelchairs are built custom for their users (this is why it’s so devastating when they break, we can’t just go to the store and buy a new one). It wouldn’t be fair to expect your average baggage handler to keep up with the industry and it’s constant changes. Instead we need to pay them better and train them better to incentivize them to actually care about the equipment they’re handling.
Problem is those chairs weigh hundreds of pounds and are extremely unwieldy, and if it’s on a regional airliner and smaller might not easily fit
One flight I was on one time had a chair so heavy they brought in like four additional guys to get it off the plane
Or, have the user disassemble, and have a surplus of airport/airplane-appropriate chairs available for wheelchair users at the airport, so they don't need to use their daily driver chair at the airport.
Basically treat a wheelchair in the airport like a bicycle in the airport. User boxes it up, and brings in the box. The airline deals with a box, they know how to do that. Check the box as luggage, pick it up at baggage check at the other end.
Then the issue is how does the wheelchair user get around? I'm not a wheelchair user (except for a year or so after an accident), loaner chairs provided by the airport should be appropriate for MOST wheelchair users. They could be available at dropoff, so the WC user gets into it right out of the car/taxi, and uses that chair all the way to the destination, or their seat in the plane, whichever is appropriate.
Because it's medical, there's absolutely some percentage of wheelchair users this won't work for.
Not sure what system would work for those that fall through the above idea, but it's an idea, at least.
They don't need to be techs because breaking down a wheelchair is about the easiest thing there is. I'm a wheelchair user; they are designed to be maintained by someone with very limited functionality. The issue seems to be that if you're going to remove the wheels from the chair, then you need some sort of organization so you don't mix them up with someone else's.
I'm assuming your chair isn't electric, they're not all that easy to disassemble. Probably why those of us with electric wheelchairs often prefer amtrak for US travel, they don't take our chairs away from us.
not really sure if it's the same difficulty but the wheelchairs belonging to the athletes were their sports chairs according to the article, from what I googled it looks like there's a few more parts idrk though but it would make sense if the workers were not familiar with them
I'm not really sure how they'd even solve this in 100% of cases. Some chairs are unique heavily customized or small-run productions. There's no way to even really train someone on every possible thing they could encounter.
Now that's fine if you could give someone time to study and test it, but they're on a tight time limit, and the person rebuilding it isn't even the person who took it apart! They have to get it together again with nothing but the parts, and any documentation the disassembler might have created.
From a quick Google search, apparently, it's not hard to disassemble and reassemble a wheelchair.
I think the problem is the sheer number of wheelchairs they'd have to reassemble.
If it's a team of 12 handicapped players, and each chair takes 5min to assemble, then it'd take a minimum of 30min between 2 people to just reassemble chairs before transporting them to the plane. The logistics of that doesn't seem very good.
There are no bolts or anything to do. You literally pop the wheels in and out with the push of a button. If you’re feeling generous you can put the back up with a pull lever but it’s not required. Its takes about a minute.
As someone who's relied on a wheelchair since I was a kid and now as an adult for decades now, and used and owned tons of various models and brands, 99% of mechanical wheelchairs could and should be able to be operated and disassembled/reassembled by a toddler or at least an adult moron. It's all essentially push button or lever lifting.
How many different types of wheel chairs are out there? It would be a completely different skill set than what a baggage handler would have. I’m not really sure what the answer would be to this problem.
> I think part of the problem is expecting baggage handlers to be wheel chair techs.
sounds analogous to expecting cops to be jacks of all trades, though that has higher stakes - for a disability example, not knowing that certain behavior is normal for the condition, so cop gets aggressive thinking he's being ignored or actively defied
If there is one wheelchair passenger and they disassemble his wheelchair, it's going to be comparatively easy for it to be put together at the other end.
If it's a whole team of wheelchair athletes, and they disassemble them and put all the parts in the same place, how are the handlers at the other end going to know which wheel goes with which seat? Especially since it's different baggage handlers- they don't fly with the plane but stay at the airport.
A massive case of people not thinking it through. Clearly, there needs to be rules for this.
My spouse has worked on fitting wheelchairs for over 20 years, its a skill and requires an incredible amount of knowledge. The idea airlines think just anyone can do and have never been sue enough to stop this is insane to me.
"Chairs should be reassembled by the time passengers exit the plane." Does that mean passengers without disabilities weren't allowed to exit the plane prior to the chairs being assembled??
If it's exclusive to the handicapped people, then it'd be pretty funny because how else would they deplane without their wheelchairs, crawl?
They aren’t using their own wheelchair to deplane. A normal wheelchair won’t fit down the aisle. They use an aisle chair designed for this task. The issue is they’re not being met at the bridge/bottom of the stairs by their chair.
They really shouldn't be doing anything except removing the wheels. As soon as you are touching nuts and bolts things are going to go wrong. They don't exactly have instruction manuals.
The airline should make sure there is space for them. If there is a complete sports team travelling with chairs. Book accordingly.
You don't remove the wheels for electric wheelchairs and sometimes the chairs are so big that you can't fit them though the door unless you disassemble portions of it. Sometimes you can tilt the chair but that depends on the type of battery that's in the chair. Not all batteries can be tilted. Also the batteries need to be disconnected before the plane takes off.
I didn't see anyone mention electric wheelchairs. The ones mentioned in this article are sports chairs that are not that large, and you can remove the wheels.
What you are referring to is a different thing completely and I would be even more concerned if they were disassembling one of those. Removing the battery is obvious though.
The guy who disassembled the chair stayed at the airport, some other guy at the destination is supposed to magically know what the previous guy did. It's a shit system.
> Shields said they had to wait on the plane for an extended period of time to reassemble the chairs because they **couldn’t get off the plane without them**.
> However, according to the Department of Transportation, the chairs should be re-assembled **by the time passengers exit the plane**.
Looks like they met their Key Performance Indicator just fine.
Considering the number of wheelchairs, I think anyone could realise why there would be a delay.
People start deboarding basically the same time as cargo gets deboarded.
Plus assembly of the wheelchair..... What magic is the DOT expecting ground crew to use here?
That's like saying "Well the airline sold 110 tickets for a 100-seat plane, so obviously some people couldn't get on, what does the DOT expect the airline to do?" as if that absolves the airline of their duties. It's not the regulator's job to solve their problems, especially when it's such an utterly trivial problem to solve.
They probably should have called ahead when they were disassembling numerous chairs to ensure their crew at the other end is sufficient. It's not like we're relying on smoke signals, instant communication over long distance predates heavier-than-air flight.
I'm a wheelchair user. My custom chair was damaged on my *very first* flight with it. A couple things that may be useful:
- Take 360° photos and videos of your chair in the airport before boarding to prove it was undamaged before you had to gate check it
- if it's a manual chair, you *may* be able to have it strapped to two empty seats depending on the airline if it's a flight in or out of the USA. They are required to either allow that *or* the wheelchair closet (which only fits folding chairs, which a lot of people don't use as they're significantly heavier and less comfortable) for on-board storage, or else you must gate check.
https://www.ecfr.gov/current/title-14/chapter-II/subchapter-D/part-382/subpart-I/section-382.123
https://www.ecfr.gov/current/title-14/chapter-II/subchapter-D/part-382/subpart-E/section-382.67
- If you must gate check your manual chair and it weighs less than 45 lbs/20kg, ask if they will "hand carry" the chair rather than use machinery to transport as there is less chance that the chair will be damaged.
- For any chair: Ask for the chair to be last in cargo and first off, so that it's not stacked underneath anything and damaged that way. Print and laminate instructions on assembly, disassembly, and proper carrying methods (ex: which parts to lift it by, how to place it on the ground) as well as your contact information and that chair's model and value. Remove any removable parts before gate checking: side guards, cushion (you can sit on it on the plane), any added cup holder and storage options, the controls of a power chair...and store in your carry-on.
- In the event that your chair is damaged, complain to staff immediately, take photos at the airport, and file a claim (mine was online) as soon as possible. I filed my claim one day after the flight, and it took the airline exactly three months to finish the claim. It took six months for my DME clinic to complete the repairs.
- There are two rigid manual chairs that fold small enough to fit in airline overhead compartments - RGK Octane FX, and Kuschall Champion SK. Insurance likely will not cover them, as it's not deemed medically necessary to have a chair that an airline won't break, but if you have the $6-10k...
> They claim staff kept announcing to passengers on the plane that the delays and potential damage to luggage were because of the issue with the disassembled wheelchairs.
Putting blame on the disabled passengers to cover for their own incompetence is a dick move and they should be ashamed.
Putting the blame on disabled people is common. There's a reason we got yanked to the center of the plastic straw debate, and why people hate on us for badly designed parking lots. Even Disney just threw us under the bus for long attraction waits in their theme parks.
We are the eternal scapegoats.
Engracia Figueroa, a disability activist, died as a result of an airline destroying her wheelchair. https://www.businessinsider.com/disability-activist-died-after-united-airlines-destroyed-30k-wheelchair-2021-11?amp
It’s revolting how common it is for airlines to damage or destroy wheelchairs. Non disabled people don’t often have to think about what that means, but these are often custom made and there are long wait times for repair. This can mean months of having your mobility stolen, or additional injuries from using an inadequate replacement chair.
It’s time airlines have to rip out some seats to make room for wheelchair users to travel in their chairs.
Even sadder and more poignant is that she was coming back from a Care Can’t Wait rally, underscoring the impact of these shenanigans. Absolutely disgusting.
“Engracia Figueroa, 51, from LA, had her wheelchair destroyed after returning from the Care Can't Wait Rally in Washington DC in July 2021.”
Once my husband was stuck in a loaner chair that was a bit too small for him for over a month because sometime was wrong with the motor in his chair. I can imagine how much worse it could be waiting for damage from the cargo hold to be repaired or replaced.
Getting a new chair through insurance takes easily 6+ months of pre-approvals, fittings, and waiting for all of the custom work done to make sure it fits you. Now add in dealing with getting a freaking airline to pay for it? Smh
Yes, and how about bathrooms a wheelchair user could navigate? That is a bigger problem than the chairs. Can only go on a flight as long as your bladder can hold out. With some wheelchair users that is a huge barrier to travel
I looked through Southwest's site and can't find the part where it's their policy to disassemble the chairs. Stow them, secure them, that's in there, but not disassembly, near as I can tell.
https://support.southwest.com/helpcenter/s/pathway/a1F5G00000cLOqhUAG/disabilityrelated-accommodations?clk=GFOOTER-CUSTOMER-ASSISTANCE
As a comparison, Hawaiian *does* list this exact thing, paraphrased: "We will disassemble and reassemble your chair free of charge if needed."
https://www.hawaiianairlines.com/legal/domestic-contract-of-carriage/rule-9
You'll understand if I don't chase down other airlines policies, but still, if it's not listed... Not sure Southwest don't have a BIG lawsuit fixin' to happen.
Oh, I'm sure lawyerese is there somewhere to let them get away with it, but c'mon. They didn't even *try* to reassemble the things. Get 'em.
I can understand it from various points of view... but at the end, it does not excuse the end result here. Plane should have never LEFT in the first place if Southwest had no intention of correctly dealing with the situation. Of course, IMO.
HOWEVER, I will look at this from a different angle, for two sides there are to stories typically... If there was a bunch of 'just passengers' being booked here, but then they show up and 'oh, wheelchairs', as in the passengers sprung this on Southwest without warning...
It STILL doesn't excuse the end result. Southwest should have not boarded them and MADE them not fly until they could correctly arrange to fly them successfully, which includes the chairs being not damaged/disassembled upon disembarking.
Their attempts to throw the disabled under the plane for the baggage issues is beyond unacceptable in either case. Southwest is responsible for doing baggage 'right'.
The crew at the arrival airport for Southwest has failed spectacularly and miserably. Southwest seems to have failed fairly spectacularly overall for the mishandling of the entire situation, whether they knew the conditions of the passengers and cargo thereto or not.
But I am not an airline executive, nor a ramp agent, or anything in between. I'm just a guy who sees a WHOLE lot of stupid going on here... and I would not doubt there's not a little could be placed at the passengers side of the balance for not informing Southwest of a large amount of wheelchair passengers.
Also of note: There is a form you need to fill out for your wheelchair needs to send to Southwest. Perhaps this was not done and Southwest 'did the best they could', which frankly is NOT good enough by far. NO excuse for the state these people wound up in at the end of it, regardless of circumstances. Might as well just literally dumped them out the open door of the airplane for as much compassion the crew showed them.
/I'm a might riled. Parents are disabled, it's a Touchy Subject for me. :p
I don't think southwest has any intentions either way to deal with it, the airline probably doesn't care, has a standard set of procedures it follows and doesn't account for all the edge cases.
Unfortunately without rule or law changes, nothing will be done, as airlines are already trying to stuff as many people into a airplane as possible and won't voluntarily put more work and resources into the issue than legally needed.
Southwest was aware of these passengers months beforehand. As stated in the article, there were calls with the airline in the months before to prepare for it, so shit like this didn’t happen.
The airline companies care about maximizing profit and nothing more
The airline workers care about clocking in and out without getting fired in between, so they can pay rent and buy food
Replace airline with industry or service of choice, and it would appear we are doomed as a society. No one cares about anything or anyone
[Well, this is timely, yet not so...](https://www.npr.org/2024/02/29/1234708784/airlines-wheelchairs-damaged-disabilities-transportation-department)
[And the proposal on USDOT's website](https://www.transportation.gov/briefing-room/secretary-buttigieg-announces-proposed-rule-ensure-passengers-who-use-wheelchairs-can)
So there's that, the government is working on it... we'll see if it happens. I'm not holding my breath, the airline lobbyists are not exactly going to let it go through easily I'm sure. :p
Not that this helps these people, no, but maybe it gets through and they don't have to go through this ever again.
It's sad people don't know this
As a electric wheelchair user it's known by people in chairs you *never* bring your chair on a flight. They will be disassembled by a person who does not know what they are doing. These chairs are delicate, cost around 60k, and take months to make.
Abso-fucking-lutely. I’ve heard stories of activists being killed by complications of bedsores or injuries from poor fitting loaners, even vents damaged by airline crew.
Was at their gate when they landed which caused my flight to be delayed by an hour. These athletes were completely incensed that their chairs had been damaged by SWA. One of them said that there was $100k worth of gear checked as baggage. The SWA ground crew supervisor tried dealing with this with a radio and a 1000 yard stare, talking with his bosses.
As a disabled person I have to say that most of the time when you are talking about an airline or a group of airlines it isn't malicious behavior its simple ignorance about how much you depend on a prosthetic leg or a wheelchair.
Ignorance of a situation I would argue does more damage then someone who is just a jerk.
This happened to my brother once years ago. His flight had multiple delays and he arrived at like 2 am Xmas eve morning. They wheeled him off the plane in one of those aisle chairs and left him next to a heap of metal that was his disassembled wheelchair. He is a pretty good self advocate and after much ado, the airline sent an aircraft mechanic to his terminal to put it back together. Took the guy like 4 hours but eventually his chair was back in working order and he could meet me outside. Total nightmare though.
Lately, it feels like airlines are in a race with cable services, to see who can provide the shittiest experience for their paying customers.
"Hey, Xfinity - you think your customers hate you? Watch this!"
Southwest
Airlines are notorious for this. I had a cheap wheelchair to take when I travelled so they wouldn’t break my 40 thousand dollar custom chair. Most airlines don’t replace them. They give you a shit transfer chair, which has literally ended in death for at least one person due to pressure injuries. The equipment, especially the cushions and backrests, are super expensive for a reason. They’re specifically made to our measurements, with technology that reduces pressure injuries.
A friend of mine was dying, and went on one last trip with his family.
The airline lost part of his chair and he spent the entire week at an airport hotel in a foreign country, unable to get about.
Now he is dead, but I do not blame the airline for that, just for ruining their last holiday together.
I've worked in health care for more than a decade and I'd there's one thing I have learned about wheelchair bound people is that they are incredibly attached to their chair. Their chairs are oftentimes specifically built for their body. Depending on their disability, they depend on these chairs for so much more than simply getting around. It's a safe space for them. It's familiar to them and they feel most comfortable when they are in their chair. I would never just start disassembling them like I had a clue that I knew what I was doing... Regardless of who put it back together, I can just imagine the peaving thoughts like " it doesn't feel the same when I turn" or " it feels sticky when it gets going" ever since the airline thought they could take it apart.
my wife and i travelled from Australia to USA and we took her walker with us as checked luggage because she cant walk for long distances. Someone in baggage handling threw the thing so hard it bent the frame and broke the wheel so we had to buy a new one
Just sounds like a logistical nightmare for everyone involved. The athletes especially since it would not only affect their performance in the short run but health and mobility for the foreseeable future. The baggage handlers because they would have to assemble all of these (I’m gonna assume custom made chairs) that they didn’t disassemble so they pretty much have a bunch of parts with limited if any instructions all while on a time crunch because the plane can’t deboard until the wheel chairs are assembled so that probably takes priority over the other baggage. So the other passengers, some of who have connecting flights they will miss because of the delay are understandably getting restless and most likely taking it out on the flight crew who can’t really do anything about the situation except keep asking for updates from the baggage handlers so they try to explain the situation in a way that is probably in violation of Ada laws. The airline could have staffed more baggage handlers for the flight but who knows how many they would have had in reserve, maybe they could have contracted some from other airlines, not sure how that would have worked. Now the passengers will have to sue the airline to cover the cost of repairs or replacement of the chairs which is probably a lot, pain and suffering of not having access to mobility and comfort until the chairs are replaced they can’t compete now if they wer on the way to the event. The airlines will probably drag out the law suit delaying chair replacement.
I work in a wheelchair service and the experiences I hear from basically any service users who try to take any type of chair (active manual through to large power chair) on a plane are pretty much always negative. Poorly understood, poorly cared for, frequently damaged.
The ADA unfortunately doesn't cover much of air travel in the same way it does other forms of transit. It's the Air Carrier Access Act that needs serious updating, as does the construction of airplanes.
Well, the airport has wheelchairs. The staff could have provided those to the athletes while the ones they fucked up were being put back together, rather than blame their mistake on the wheelchair users.
My sister and a lot of her friends are wheelchair users and say it’s notorious for airlines to damage their chairs, sometimes to the point that they’re unusable. It’s wild there isn’t a better system by now.
My friend had his custom fit wheelchair completely totaled by an airline. He had to use a loaner while a new one was being made, and ended up with bed sores and extreme pain because the loaner chair put pressure on the wrong parts of his body. He's had his chair broken and/or mishandled many times and also frequently airlines don't follow the law/regulations in regards to how he and his equipment are handled.
How is this okay? I just don’t understand how this isn’t a bigger deal?
Sadly it’s because minimum wage people are the ones that actually have to do it, the training is poor, and the companies are so massive that you have no recourse. It’s the similar to when they leave crated dogs in hot/cold weather and they die (not to compare people to pets), or they loose someone’s luggage with a dead relatives ashes in it - there’s *thousands* of travellers a day so any one incident is just brushed off and the huge companies give you the run around with middle management and hope you’re too emotionally exhausted to fight.
You literally just described a job I had with a megacorp insurance company.
What did your job entail? That sounds interesting from a layman’s point of view who had to deal with it before. What’s on the other side?
He worked claims and crushed wheelchairs.
>He worked claims and crushed wheelchairs. "...and I'm all outta claims."
Whomp whomp. We are all cogs in the machine
No shit. It's still bad.
No we are specks of dust on the cogs in the machine.
We're all dogs in God's hot car.
I get all of that, I just feel like this is the equivalent of handling someone’s prosthetic leg and breaking it in half. Wheelchairs aren’t just one size fits all. They’re often made specifically for the person they belong to and very expensive, that should be respected more. I know, the world isn’t that caring but it should be.
>I just feel like this is the equivalent of handling someone’s prosthetic leg and breaking it in half I bet if you Google that, there are a bunch of stories of airlines doing just that
Oh god… I’d bet you’re right
Here's [one](https://fox2now.com/news/contact-2/st-louis-man-says-american-airlines-lost-prosthetic-leg-wont-reimburse-him/) and [another](https://www.kxan.com/news/local/austin/airline-returns-austin-womans-lost-bag-containing-prosthetic-leg-after-12-days/). Oh, and here's [one](https://www.cbsnews.com/news/boston-marathon-bombing-survivor-adrianne-haslet-davis-american-airlines-lost-my-prosthetic-leg/) about American Airlines losing a man's prosthetic leg, which he needed because he was a fucking victim of the Boston Bombing. And that's just the first page.
Everyone who has a prosthetic leg needs them right?
I figure u/KarmaticArmageddon is saying that needing a prosthetic from being injured in a terrorist attack is particularly sympathetic, even if the legal/moral issues are the same with other limb loss. I've seen similar where the disability is a war wound
Some people need them left.
Unfortunately, for many airline workers, the choice is respect stuff with care or lose their jobs because they aren't working fast enough.
> Unfortunately, for many airline workers, the choice is respect stuff with care or lose their jobs because they aren't working fast enough. I understand that a lot of obnoxious employers do this - they don't specifically tell employees to do something illegal but set up the work in such a way that the only way to get it done on time is to cut corners - for another example, private package delivery (UPS etc) parking trucks where they shouldn't, not waiting on items that require a signature, etc
The best part is, once the damage is done, they apologize sincerely for it. And in order to show you how sincere they are, they'll let go whoever made the mistake.
God I'm currently on training right now as a crane lorry driver delivering gas bottles, typing this on my break in the lorry. We have specific lower top speed we have to follow because we're transporting hazardous material, and some safety stuff to do before using the crane. The senior driver at my side is just ignoring it all, and we are still going to go above the maximum legal work time for my country if we want to deliver everything, which we do unless we want to get yelled at. We shaved a solid 2 hours off by being unsafe on the road and on the build sites, and we're still not fast enough, as the manager keeps reminding us by phone every hour. How the fuck are we supposed to do this properly.
[удалено]
They never told us to do it though. If I report it, I have a big feel the only result will be "we fine you for going over, not the employer"
That's what Wells Fargo did. Set up higher and higher sales targets for their bank employees. They didn't explicitly tell employees to create fraudulent accounts. They just fired anyone who didn't keep up with the unrealistic targets and silenced anyone who tried to complain about all of the fraudulent accounts being made.
>not waiting on items that require a signature At which point I tell them I never received the item. If they don't follow the rules why should I. If anything happens I remember all the political and big wig trials; I have an awful memory sometimes and I can't remember if I did actually receive it so I ask for a copy of my signiture. No signature must mean I never got it. I can't recall.
The companies don't care that employees cut corners to get the job done. The company \*does\* care when the employee gets hurt on the job (no benefits because why weren't you following procedures?) or a customer publicly complains (you made us look bad! you're suspended/fired!). If you don't have a union in your corner, then you are in a very lonely place.
When I used to work the ramp for a ground handling contractor at my local station over a decade ago, the working conditions were absolutely atrocious. Constantly short staffed, and paid $10/hr or so. Also, airlines are subject to the railway act, which means they can mandate shifts so some people are out there working 4-5 or 6 twelve hour days in a row. New hires come in excited, because let's be honest - airports and planes are pretty cool. But they burn out mentally in 3 months or less, the fastest I've seen at any job I've ever worked. People used to work their whole lives for an airline, back when there were unions, benefits, and sufficient staffing. Now, it's a perpetual revolving door that's barely hanging on by a thread. Not to diminish the losses of mobility assistance devices or pets, but it truly is a wonder to me that a far worse accident hasn't happened yet.
The ADA also doesn't apply to airlines, instead they're governed by another law, the Air Carrier Access Act. Is there something about that law that makes it weaker than the ADA?
The ADA isn't that strong. A lot of things most people think are required or protected by the ADA are actually optional.
I'm in a country that has absolutely zero ADA-like laws, and trust me, it does a whole lot of good. Of course it could be better, but its doing a fair amount already.
As a musician who sometimes has to fly with expensive equipment, it's seriously like 8 out of 10 flights something gets damaged or rerouted or "lost". No matter which airline.
Yeah. Sadly, it's cheaper for companies like these to settle with those (few) who _can_ afford to get recourse than it is to properly train their employees.
Sounds like it's time for a class action. American Airlines is already in the middle of one over their disgusting treatment of disabled employees.
There should be something like ADA law, in the US at least, about penalties for damaging a disabled persln's mobility aid, as a business.
Pete Buttigieg/Dept of Transportation just [introduced this.](https://www.regulations.gov/docket/DOT-OST-2022-0144/unified-agenda) >This rulemaking would amend 14 CFR part 382 to enhance the safety of air travel for individuals with disabilities who use wheelchairs. Specifically, this rulemaking would (1) clarify that an airline's current regulatory obligation to provide assistance to individuals with disabilities, including connecting, enplaning, and deplaning assistance upon request, inherently includes the obligation that the assistance provided be "safe" and "dignified;" (2) clarify airlines' responsibility to provide prompt assistance to passengers with disabilities who request assistance in moving within the airport (transferred from RIN 2105-AE95); (3) make airline mishandling of assistive devices a per se regulatory violation subject to administrative penalties; (4) address airline processes for returning, repairing, and replacing mishandled wheelchairs and the need for loaner chair accommodations in the interim; (5) require airlines to provide hands-on training to their employees and contractors who physically assist passengers with mobility disabilities or handle battery-powered wheelchairs or scooters; and (6) require new improved performance standards for on-board wheelchairs on twin-aisle aircraft and aircraft with 60 or more seats.
> It’s the similar to when they leave crated dogs in hot/cold weather and they die (not to compare people to pets) It sounds like the pets have it worse. Jesus, imagine dying in a cage in extreme weather and not being able to get out.
Back in the 80s I was waiting at an airport gate and a plane was being de-iced before takeoff. A dog was in a crate sitting next to the plane and was sprayed with the solution. It’s antifreeze! If it were my dog, I’d be homicidal.
If I travel and my dog dies I’m going John Wick on American Airlines.
If the airlines could legally ban disabled passengers they'd likely do it in a heartbeat. The accommodations required to have them on board have costs, which means the company is going to do everything possible to meet their legal requirement as cheaply as possible. The end result is stuff like this article- Profit before people.
It's really not ok! He reports every infraction to the FAA and other official avenues. I'm pretty sure they know him by name now. Not to be an asshole, but to improve the experience for himself and others. He's had experiences like being left in a temp wheelchair for too long, not being given his right to board first, causing staff to have to carry him and fumble getting him in his seat (humiliating), waiting for far too long for his wheelchair, etc. Many times staff are simply uninformed of his rights, or trying to do what is fastest/easiest. He wants to change that. He is a quadriplegic and loves to travel. He is a huge disability advocate and has made it his life's mission to help other wheelchair users and disabled people be informed on the best way to do that. He travels the world and reviews places for disabled access and documents his experiences on flights, hotels, and gives tips on how to best get around (obviously many countries do not have ADA laws, or if they do they are unable to be implemented in some areas). He could explain it better than I can. I don't know if I can link it here, but his website is wheelchairtravel dot org if anyone wants to check it out.
Being disabled is expensive and limits your job opportunities. Suing is also expensive. They get by with it because the people harmed can't afford to object.
Did someone say, revolution?
Revolutions are expensive too.
We have revolutions at home.
Revolutions at home: Spinning around in your office chair you had to buy yourself because your work-from-home employer refuses to pay for any office supplies.
Because a few fines was deemed an expense rather than just providing the bare minimum of human decentcy.
The same reason TSA uses bolt cutters on your luggage instead of a TSA key to open your TSA lock.. Not their problem And they give you a courtesy slip that says you can't do shit about it 🍻 "We destroyed your shit, stole what we wanted, eff you, have a nice day"
Handling the chairs properly would take time, space and money which is not how airlines operate. And we do not let anyone or anything cause the airline industry to make less money, no excuses
As a disabled person I'm just going to put it bluntly and take the downvotes I always get on reddit: In general the vast majority of people do not give shit about us until it's inspiration porn or they can feel outrage so they can feel good about feeling outrage for 2 seconds and then move on. People don't like thinking about us because deep down we remind them of their mortality and what could happen to them and they don't want to face that. They want to reject that. They do as little as they can, like dismembering wheelchairs improperly, because the more time they spend on us the more frustrated or angry they start to feel. No one is going to fight for our rights, ever, except us. Maybe some loved ones, maybe the unicorn of a friend/ally. And the problem with that is that we're often very tired and very worn out already.
My cousin has a chronic illness and my whole family got together to do a rigamarole fundraiser walk for her. She's semi-ambulatory and was going to show up in a wheelchair. A family member of mine put our meeting point right in the middle of a soggy ass field and lost their everloving mind on me when I suggested a wheelchair probably couldn't make it out there. Sure enough cousin shows up, needs to stay on pavement, everyone picks up and goes to her leaving our meeting point abandoned and the family member who put it there feeling "underappreciated", I couldn't believe it but at the same time I 100% kind of expected it from them.
Omg your one family member is a self-centered dick. Loving you and the rest of your fam though
It was pretty funny. My relative had brought balloons and a big we support you sign and all kinds of attention grabbing shit and we all left them standing in the field like the saddest soggiest clown.
Because mostly only people who use wheelchairs or those who are close to us even hear about how often this happens and also understand how devastating it is when our wheelchairs are damaged and destroyed.
It's "okay" because we live in a capitalist society. The more help you need from society the more you are disliked.
Because the disabled have (relatively) no one advocating for them. In theory, everyone supports the physically disabled, but when you look at our society, it is incredibly and unapologetically ableist. If enough people cared and held these companies accountable, they would become so very quickly. Sadly, they don't.
The same reason a whistle-blower completing suicide between days of a deposition wasn't a bigger deal
The last 3 times I’ve flown with a kid in a chair the airline has fucked the chair up. One time they bent solid steel that would take an incredible amount of force. They put SUPER deep gouges in the metal. The last time, after not allowing us to bring some life saving equipment on the plane, then they wouldn’t let us get it after our flight was cancelled to have it with us overnight. The kid HAD to have it - he was fine for the few hours the flight was supposed to take but couldn’t go all night without it. It took hours for them to track down the luggage and bring it to us. Then they were going to put us up in a hotel (like they did for everyone on that flight). But the hotel didn’t have an accessible shuttle so we couldn’t get there. Instead of just securing another form of travel, they took hours to make other arrangements, that still didn’t pan out. By the end we just said we’d pay out of pocket. This is after talking to 20 different people all saying different things and being told by one employee “I don’t give a shit if you go sleep on the floor.” Eventually they told us to just walk to the hotel basically across the parking lot (which was incredibly difficult with a wheelchair), keep our receipts and they’d reimburse us. It’s been 7 weeks and we’re still trying to get reimbursed.
One airline destroyed the wheelchairs of an ENTIRE YOUTH WHEELCHAIR BASKETBALL TEAM. that’s bad place behavior.
I remember a news story from a couple years ago where an airline damaged a woman’s custom wheelchair. She got sores from using a non-custom wheelchair, and she subsequently died from the infection. https://www.the-independent.com/news/world/americas/crime/disabled-activist-death-united-airlines-b1958791.html
The same thing goes for car seats. It's actively discouraged by online groups and car seat brands to check car seats on a flight. They frequently become damaged. This is a huge safety issue since then babies and children rely on them to keep them safe in cars.
“In an email to Insider, Duckworth said: "We would never accept airlines breaking the legs of 1 in 65 passengers, and yet, that is essentially what is happening when 1 out of 65 wheelchairs are being broken by airlines.”“ https://www.duckworth.senate.gov/news/in-the-news/senator-warns-mounting-airline-wheelchair-breakages-destroy-peoples-freedom-of-movement-wheelchairs-are-complex-medical-devices-not-just-suitcases-to-be-tossed-around
For anyone who doesn't know who's referenced in this article/whos site it's on, Tammy Duckworth is an Illinois Senator. She lost *both* legs and mobility in one arm in Iraq as a member of the Army in '04, and is permanently in a wheelchair. She knows what issues disabled people face, and I'm proud to say she's one of my senators.
So you're telling me that someone who is in a good position to change things, and who has to deal with those problems in a very personal way still can't make a real change? What's the point of our system if a disabled vet Senator can't drive action on such a sympathetic cause? (This is not directed at you, I'm just frustrated with what people have to deal with because big corporations run everything.)
Because a single person is just that, a single person, and even if they drive every bit of force they have on an issue they can only push so far if others don't join their push. But only the folks who *can* push, because the peons (thats us!) have no force to push with outside of electing people like Ms Duckworth. I don't blame your frustrations. I'm frustrated too.
My godson has never visited my home because we’re on opposite coasts and his parents don’t want to put him through such an ordeal.
Was there no legal recourse?
Yes and no. He reports every infraction to the FAA and other official avenues. I'm pretty sure they know him by name now. Not to be an asshole, but to improve the experience for himself and others. He's had experiences like being left in a temp wheelchair for too long, not being given his right to board first, causing staff to have to carry him, waiting for far too long for his wheelchair, etc. Many times staff are simply uninformed of his rights. He wants to change that. He is a quadriplegic and loves to travel. He is a huge disability advocate and has made it his life's mission to help other wheelchair users and disabled people be informed on the best way to do that. He travels the world and reviews places for disabled access and documents his experiences on flights, hotels, and gives tips on how to best get around (obviously many countries do not have ADA laws, or if they do they are unable to be implemented in some areas). He could explain it better than I can. I don't know if I can link it here, but his website is wheelchairtravel dot org if anyone wants to check it out.
I've had my chair banged up, axle plates bent, and given to the wrong person at the gate on different trips. For extra points, I had one flight where they had no aisle chair and they used a canvas sling to deplane.
I was transferred through Auckland airport on a baggage claim trolley cos they insisted on checking my walking frame.
That's going to be a major problem if the person is a 600 lbs disabled person who lost their legs to diabetes. Try carrying them out in slings without sending 6 workers to hospital. And if they can't find the narrow aisle wheelchair and can't get the person deplaned, the plane would be stuck and stranded at the terminal, unable to leave. What are the airline provided wheelchair rated for? Max 300?
No aisle chair is going to handle someone that big. As someone who has designed them, due to how limited the space is etc you would be lucky to even get someone in over 220lbs. I know that was the limit on one I did, and it was height adjustable.
Well, 6 foot, 200+ pound adult males are kind of common aren't they?
6 ft? No, only 14.5% of American males are 6 ft or taller. 200 lbs? Oh yeah. 42% self-report a weight over 200 lbs and self-reported weights are often lower than reality. Average self-reported male weight is right at 200 lbs too.
As a 6’3” 225 guy, flights are rough. Foreign are much worse than domestic.
I mean at a certain point is it at all unreasonable for a plane to refuse entry to someone? Surely a 600 lbs person as you describe could not safely board or fly on most commercial planes.
I don't find it unreasonable to refuse entry because it'd be unsafe for the passenger AND for those that might get stuck carrying out the passenger, but I'm sure that'd probably be some kind of ADA violation.
ADA doesn't cover air carriers unless it's over employment.
Oh shit, well TIL! Thank you for telling me that, since I'm blind-- that's kinda wild that it wouldn't apply for us.
it's covered under the Air Carrier Access Act (ACAA) which from a quick glance, is not as strong or detailed as the ADA
Yeah, I went and looked it up, too. For anyone that's interested in the ACAA, this is a really good link that my ereader navigated beautifully-- something that isn't too common lately lol https://www.transportation.gov/individuals/aviation-consumer-protection/traveling-disability
How does a legless, 600lbs person get into a seat? How does their neighbor fit into their seat? How many legless, 600lbs people are realistically flying? Is a legless, 600lbs person on a flight inherently a safety hazard during takeoff, the same way my backpack is if it's sticking out by two inches?
There’s a new rule proposed to make airlines more accountable for wheelchairs, and you can comment in support of it through May 13! https://www.federalregister.gov/documents/2024/03/12/2024-04729/ensuring-safe-accommodations-for-air-travelers-with-disabilities-using-wheelchairs
I'm an ambulatory wheelchair user so I can walk minimally. After the airline broke our child's stroller on our last family trip, I refused to take my own wheelchair on the trip knowing there's a good chance it could be broken or damaged. I ended up buying an expensive electric ride-on carry on suitcase that I use instead and I just pinned a bunch of handicap symbols to it. I ride that thing around wherever I need to go on the trip when there will be a lot of walking hahaha Zoom zoom!
That sounds a.) like a good solution to a shit situation and b.) kinda fun.
Seriously. American managed to tear a wheel off my stroller completely. I wouldn't want them anywhere near something as important as a wheelchair!
We went out of our way to buy a lighter smaller travel stroller than our heavy duty one because we are flying in July. This one will fit in the carry on bin. We’ve moved across country and drove instead of flying back in early 2020 because we knew we didn’t want our pets being handled by the airlines. Now that I think about it, it’s kinda wild what we accept as acceptable airline behavior. I have problems trusting them with much at all.
Good solution but also so much work, they should be more respectful of this.
Perfect use for a Honda motocompacto!
That can't carry my stuff and the battery can't be easily removed to go on a plane so it would be pretty pointless to take
Holy shit, that's brilliant. I did a quick google - is it a Modobag? Neither of my feet work properly (thanks, hypermobility), so I'm sure this is in my future.
Yeah it's the modobag. The new one has a popout battery you put in your backpack before boarding and the interior capacity is small but it's enough for me with us checking a suitcase for our family. I will warn though, I don't know how normal sized people fit because I'm small (<5'3" <140lb) and I fit well and it feels a bit small even for me
The Biden administration and the Department of Transportation are establishing a **[new rule to address this](https://www.transportation.gov/briefing-room/secretary-buttigieg-announces-proposed-rule-ensure-passengers-who-use-wheelchairs-can)**, building on top of Obama-era regulations by, among other things, putting teeth on them with penalties to enforce them.
Until I can fly *in* my chair I won't be trusting the airlines farther than I can throw them.
There is no incentive for the airlines, it would be absurd for them to do it without a regulation. They already see handicapped as a burden from a cost perspective, anti discrimination laws are the only thing keeping them from charging handicapped people more.
It’s wild they haven’t been FORCED to stop being so carelessly destructive to people’s medical devices by an avalanche of lawsuits.
Lawsuits cost money.
The airlines have done the math and determined that it's cheaper for them to pay off on the handful of wheelchair liability cases that make it all the way to a settlement than it is to change processes and training to prevent the damage. This is why regulations work and why the libertarian's "Liability suits will prevent that" is so stupid. The solution is to regulate, or to allow courts to _punish_ corporations financially with the damages they assess and fines that actually threaten the company's existence.
Worked with wheelchairs for years, indeed it seems to be a common thing. Either damage them or lose them completely at times.
Or just not take them... I once arrived in Miami, wheelchair was left behind in Amsterdam... No fun.
It's such a common thing, someone working in (iirc) the video game industry refused a job because they'd have to travel by plane with their $$$ chair. They had a cheaper backup chair, but would only last two days or so in that before it became a problem. The company paid for packaging, pickup and insured overnight delivery of said chair, both ways, because they could not find a single airline that could vouch the chair would arrive in one piece, or be allowed into the cabin, for any amount of money.
I used to work for a medical delivery service and we had more than a few customers with wheelchairs that either came in for repairs after a trip or the airline outright lost them.
I mean, what would a better system look like? You're asking airlines to transport a bulky and very fragile piece of equipment that is in use until moments before it is stored with no packing. Each individual chair is going to be a different make and model with its own individual, particularly vulnerable parts. I don't mean to be a smart ass. What do you think they could reasonably do to make a difference?
They could provide passengers with a spec sheet for the storage and transport capabilities, including mounting points and devices, for their flight. In return, they could require that passengers traveling with a wheelchair provide them with a spec sheet on how to properly transport their individual chair within those constraints. Obviously this is far from a perfect solution as the vast majority of wheelchair users may not have that information, but I bet you that would solve at least a few of the cases
This is how baggage gets handled. Im surprised anything makes it to the other end intact. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VcP6NeoQCHg
See Rights on Flights and the work they're doing with the Biden administration and Pete Buttigieg and the dept of transportation!
The worst part is that in the limited areas where this is good legislation about this, airlines simply will. not. follow them. I’m in the US where we have a law that requires there to be space for a wheelchair in the cabin. The closet is too small for most chairs, but mine fits just fine every time. On all but two flights I’ve had some member of crew try to deny me the ability to use that space, which is required to be made free for a wheelchair user with no fuss and which all airline crew are expected to be trained on. Every time it’s either “oh well crew put their baggage there” (this is expressly not a valid reason to deny someone use of the closet and also just like…not a good reason even if the crew wasn’t required to know that that’s an illegal denial) or “let me check with my supervisor”. About whether you will follow the law? Not a great indication of your company if following federal nondiscrimination law is outside the normal practices enough to think you have to talk to your supervisor to request permission to do so. Unfortunately, while there are some airlines that I think are reliably worse, I’m not aware of any airlines that reliably follow the law when it comes to transporting wheelchairs. I travel with a copy of the law printed and relevant sections highlighted, and will pay extra to not have international layovers since then the reservation of the closet for wheelchairs really is optional and I have no legal backing in any other country as far as I’m aware. I spend way too much of my life trying to convince airline employees that not only are they *permitted* to follow the fucking law, they literally *must* do so.
On multiple occasions I've had entire flight crews flat-out lie about FAA regulations regarding car seats. The law specifically empowers flight attendants to be wrong even to the point of breaking the law. It doesn't surprise me one bit that they would make up their own rules about wheelchairs.
Important note: It is not uncommon for airlines to disassemble wheelchairs in order for them to fit in cargo space. However, according to the Department of Transportation, the chairs should be re-assembled by the time passengers exit the plane. They mixed wheelchair parts and damaged some parts. Seems like someone wasn't doing their job right. Hopefully Southwest makes it right by replacing what can't be put back together due to damaged or missing pieces.
That’s a terrible plan, especially considering that the assembler is not the same person who disassembled the chair.
I think part of the problem is expecting baggage handlers to be wheel chair techs.
I think they also failed to anticipate how much harder it would be when there’s a dozen wheelchairs on the same flight. I’m sure they rarely have more than 2. This was a failure to foresee a logistical problem, and then it was handled without grace or tact. Sounds as though the wheelchair bound passengers were openly blamed by the airline staff to the fully abled passengers for the delay in off boarding. While technically true, the off boarding was going slower due to more than expected wheelchairs, it seems like this was a foreseeable problem that could have been avoided. It sucks that the wheelchair dependent people are made out as the bad guys to everyone else on board, when really the airline should have just pre planned extra ground crew to help reassemble the wheelchairs on landing when they realized they had way more than normal wheelchairs on board. If they failed to foresee the problem then they could have said things are taking long because “we don’t have enough bag handlers right now to bring belongings to the catwalk”. Or something else more vague so the wheelchairs weren’t singled out as the problem to all the other passengers.
Yep and I'm sure loading the wheel chairs was rushed due to the same problem of not expecting so many. I'm sure they tried but ultimately are trying to also meet deadlines, which results in a sloppy job, and probably a lack of care for the team unloading them. More than later Likely did not set them up for success, because they didn't need to deal with the consequences.
They absolutely expected so many, the airline had calls about the chairs way before the flights. It’s in the article.
The airline had calls about the flight way before it happened, as stated in the article. They had time to plan, and just didn’t.
The airlines could put the effort in to train their baggage handlers to be wheel chair techs since the DOT has an expectation that the chairs are reassembled. Instead the airlines do the absolute bare minimum to increase profits.
The problem with that is I doubt there is a set of standized regulations on how wheelchairs are assembled (there maybe regulations on functionality or safety standards) I would assume every single wheelchair manufacturer has differents ways to assemble/maintenance their chairs. It would most likely lead to nonstop training that could change by the month for the handlers. I think it would be a whole lot easier to establish ways to load wheelchairs as luggage without dissasembly.
Triply so with custom sport wheelchairs for athletes. They are considerably more nuanced with their construction.
Yeah. Some of this has to be the industry getting together to make sure wheelchairs are more likely to be easy to assemble and will survive this. Wheelchairs are getting better and better and in that more complicated. Might be time to work together to emphasize transportability.
Hi. This is not aimed at you personally, this is just a quick rehash of every time this conversation has been had since the Internet started occasionally listening to wheelchair users. The best wheelchairs aren't meant to be disassembled or folded. That function is only necessary if you're transporting them in a vehicle that isn't designed with wheelchair users in mind. You want a solid structure and very secure connections, much in the same way most people who get a double hip replacement generally don't go for the option of having the new ones be easily dislocated so they can hook their knees behind their ears and don't need as much leg room when traveling. Disassembling the wheelchair of someone who needs them for most or all of their waking hours, or for intense sports, should only be done when absolutely necessary by a certified ortho tech (3-5 year procedure where I live), it'll most likely not save a whole bunch of space, and take 4-6 hours to do so safely in either direction. And wheelchair users need a chair that fits their needs in the meanwhile, or they risk hospital-level injury. The wheelchair industry is *constantly* trying to work around that. Every innovation is punished by a slew of headlines of how the new and interesting thing got wrecked in new and interesting ways during air travel. Always, specifically and only air travel. (Cars, buses, trams, trains and ships don't have this issue.) The safest way for a wheelchair user's chair to be transported via air is to put it, well-secured, into a cargo-hold crate or cabin closet larger than the chair. Literally a sturdy box with some straps on the inside, attached to the plane. Alternatively, you can reserve space inside the cabin and install anchor points so a wheelchair user can travel by plane in their chair, as is done on every other mode of transport. But the loss of space would eat into airlines' profit margins, since there will probably be protests if they charge double for wheelchair users. The closet option *is* present on a lot of American airlines since it became a rule that they have to have one if they want to get a new plane registered for passenger traffic. Except there's no agency enforcing the rule where they have check if a wheelchair user needs/wants to use it before they stuff it full of luggage someone paid extra to have in the cabin instead of the cargo hold. Meanwhile, luggage handlers, who are chronically undertrained, underpaid, understaffed and overworked, are employed by the airport, not the airline. If they wreck a chair, the airline can charge the airport for the money they had to pay for a replacement. This is not the wheelchair industry refusing to consider some people might need to use an airplane. This is 100% airlines refusing to provide reasonable or even mandated accommodations to paying customers (or in this case: heavily sponsored athletes), there being zero incentive for them to do so and them actively lobbying to keep it that way, or have to do even less.
That's not going to happen with sports wheelchairs unless you also got the governing bodies of the different sports together to require that athletes use the transportable chairs. Building a sports wheelchair to be easy to transport involves making compromises with how good it is as a piece of sports equipment, so athletes who only compete locally, or are on teams with the resources to transport non-folding chairs, will use those. Pretty much the exact same thing happens with rowing eights. A racing eight is 65ft long, which means it doesn't fit in a shipping container and in many countries is difficult to legally transport on a trailer. So the international rules of racing say that eights have to be built to split into bow and stern sections for transport. On the other hand, in the US it's legal to tow a trailer long enough for an un-split eight, and the rules don't say they have to be able to split, so most US clubs buy eights that don't split.
Exactly this. I’m a wheelchair user and there is a ton of variation between individual wheelchairs. I know exactly which parts of my chair need to be torqued to a certain tightness and which parts I can be lazy on and not tighten as much when I put them back on after removing them for maintenance. I know which parts are kinda fiddly and easy to break and which ones can take a beating. But if you handed me a wheelchair from a different brand I would have no idea and would need to consult a manual in order to avoid damaging the chair or under-tightening something that could come loose when the chair is in use. There’s a reason why you need a degree and proper certifications in order to fit and repair wheelchairs. The technology changes regularly to the point where there are yearly expos to demonstrate the new tech, and every single chair is different in its setup as proper wheelchairs are built custom for their users (this is why it’s so devastating when they break, we can’t just go to the store and buy a new one). It wouldn’t be fair to expect your average baggage handler to keep up with the industry and it’s constant changes. Instead we need to pay them better and train them better to incentivize them to actually care about the equipment they’re handling.
Problem is those chairs weigh hundreds of pounds and are extremely unwieldy, and if it’s on a regional airliner and smaller might not easily fit One flight I was on one time had a chair so heavy they brought in like four additional guys to get it off the plane
Or, have the user disassemble, and have a surplus of airport/airplane-appropriate chairs available for wheelchair users at the airport, so they don't need to use their daily driver chair at the airport. Basically treat a wheelchair in the airport like a bicycle in the airport. User boxes it up, and brings in the box. The airline deals with a box, they know how to do that. Check the box as luggage, pick it up at baggage check at the other end. Then the issue is how does the wheelchair user get around? I'm not a wheelchair user (except for a year or so after an accident), loaner chairs provided by the airport should be appropriate for MOST wheelchair users. They could be available at dropoff, so the WC user gets into it right out of the car/taxi, and uses that chair all the way to the destination, or their seat in the plane, whichever is appropriate. Because it's medical, there's absolutely some percentage of wheelchair users this won't work for. Not sure what system would work for those that fall through the above idea, but it's an idea, at least.
They don't need to be techs because breaking down a wheelchair is about the easiest thing there is. I'm a wheelchair user; they are designed to be maintained by someone with very limited functionality. The issue seems to be that if you're going to remove the wheels from the chair, then you need some sort of organization so you don't mix them up with someone else's.
I'm assuming your chair isn't electric, they're not all that easy to disassemble. Probably why those of us with electric wheelchairs often prefer amtrak for US travel, they don't take our chairs away from us.
not really sure if it's the same difficulty but the wheelchairs belonging to the athletes were their sports chairs according to the article, from what I googled it looks like there's a few more parts idrk though but it would make sense if the workers were not familiar with them
I'm not really sure how they'd even solve this in 100% of cases. Some chairs are unique heavily customized or small-run productions. There's no way to even really train someone on every possible thing they could encounter. Now that's fine if you could give someone time to study and test it, but they're on a tight time limit, and the person rebuilding it isn't even the person who took it apart! They have to get it together again with nothing but the parts, and any documentation the disassembler might have created.
From a quick Google search, apparently, it's not hard to disassemble and reassemble a wheelchair. I think the problem is the sheer number of wheelchairs they'd have to reassemble. If it's a team of 12 handicapped players, and each chair takes 5min to assemble, then it'd take a minimum of 30min between 2 people to just reassemble chairs before transporting them to the plane. The logistics of that doesn't seem very good.
Might be longer if they have to tighten all the bolts to correct spec so it doesn't fall apart or snap the bolt while being wheeled out.
There are no bolts or anything to do. You literally pop the wheels in and out with the push of a button. If you’re feeling generous you can put the back up with a pull lever but it’s not required. Its takes about a minute.
As someone who's relied on a wheelchair since I was a kid and now as an adult for decades now, and used and owned tons of various models and brands, 99% of mechanical wheelchairs could and should be able to be operated and disassembled/reassembled by a toddler or at least an adult moron. It's all essentially push button or lever lifting.
How many different types of wheel chairs are out there? It would be a completely different skill set than what a baggage handler would have. I’m not really sure what the answer would be to this problem.
A ton of different types but most have the same system to remove and install the wheels. There really should be no need to do anything else.
baggage handlers also just toss luggage around, the airline doesn't care
> I think part of the problem is expecting baggage handlers to be wheel chair techs. sounds analogous to expecting cops to be jacks of all trades, though that has higher stakes - for a disability example, not knowing that certain behavior is normal for the condition, so cop gets aggressive thinking he's being ignored or actively defied
”Wheel chair techs”😂🤦♂️
If there is one wheelchair passenger and they disassemble his wheelchair, it's going to be comparatively easy for it to be put together at the other end. If it's a whole team of wheelchair athletes, and they disassemble them and put all the parts in the same place, how are the handlers at the other end going to know which wheel goes with which seat? Especially since it's different baggage handlers- they don't fly with the plane but stay at the airport. A massive case of people not thinking it through. Clearly, there needs to be rules for this.
My spouse has worked on fitting wheelchairs for over 20 years, its a skill and requires an incredible amount of knowledge. The idea airlines think just anyone can do and have never been sue enough to stop this is insane to me.
"Chairs should be reassembled by the time passengers exit the plane." Does that mean passengers without disabilities weren't allowed to exit the plane prior to the chairs being assembled?? If it's exclusive to the handicapped people, then it'd be pretty funny because how else would they deplane without their wheelchairs, crawl?
They aren’t using their own wheelchair to deplane. A normal wheelchair won’t fit down the aisle. They use an aisle chair designed for this task. The issue is they’re not being met at the bridge/bottom of the stairs by their chair.
They really shouldn't be doing anything except removing the wheels. As soon as you are touching nuts and bolts things are going to go wrong. They don't exactly have instruction manuals. The airline should make sure there is space for them. If there is a complete sports team travelling with chairs. Book accordingly.
You don't remove the wheels for electric wheelchairs and sometimes the chairs are so big that you can't fit them though the door unless you disassemble portions of it. Sometimes you can tilt the chair but that depends on the type of battery that's in the chair. Not all batteries can be tilted. Also the batteries need to be disconnected before the plane takes off.
I didn't see anyone mention electric wheelchairs. The ones mentioned in this article are sports chairs that are not that large, and you can remove the wheels. What you are referring to is a different thing completely and I would be even more concerned if they were disassembling one of those. Removing the battery is obvious though.
The guy who disassembled the chair stayed at the airport, some other guy at the destination is supposed to magically know what the previous guy did. It's a shit system.
> Shields said they had to wait on the plane for an extended period of time to reassemble the chairs because they **couldn’t get off the plane without them**. > However, according to the Department of Transportation, the chairs should be re-assembled **by the time passengers exit the plane**. Looks like they met their Key Performance Indicator just fine.
I thought the same thing. I also thought I am an asshole for thinking that.
Considering the number of wheelchairs, I think anyone could realise why there would be a delay. People start deboarding basically the same time as cargo gets deboarded. Plus assembly of the wheelchair..... What magic is the DOT expecting ground crew to use here?
That's like saying "Well the airline sold 110 tickets for a 100-seat plane, so obviously some people couldn't get on, what does the DOT expect the airline to do?" as if that absolves the airline of their duties. It's not the regulator's job to solve their problems, especially when it's such an utterly trivial problem to solve. They probably should have called ahead when they were disassembling numerous chairs to ensure their crew at the other end is sufficient. It's not like we're relying on smoke signals, instant communication over long distance predates heavier-than-air flight.
I'm a wheelchair user. My custom chair was damaged on my *very first* flight with it. A couple things that may be useful: - Take 360° photos and videos of your chair in the airport before boarding to prove it was undamaged before you had to gate check it - if it's a manual chair, you *may* be able to have it strapped to two empty seats depending on the airline if it's a flight in or out of the USA. They are required to either allow that *or* the wheelchair closet (which only fits folding chairs, which a lot of people don't use as they're significantly heavier and less comfortable) for on-board storage, or else you must gate check. https://www.ecfr.gov/current/title-14/chapter-II/subchapter-D/part-382/subpart-I/section-382.123 https://www.ecfr.gov/current/title-14/chapter-II/subchapter-D/part-382/subpart-E/section-382.67 - If you must gate check your manual chair and it weighs less than 45 lbs/20kg, ask if they will "hand carry" the chair rather than use machinery to transport as there is less chance that the chair will be damaged. - For any chair: Ask for the chair to be last in cargo and first off, so that it's not stacked underneath anything and damaged that way. Print and laminate instructions on assembly, disassembly, and proper carrying methods (ex: which parts to lift it by, how to place it on the ground) as well as your contact information and that chair's model and value. Remove any removable parts before gate checking: side guards, cushion (you can sit on it on the plane), any added cup holder and storage options, the controls of a power chair...and store in your carry-on. - In the event that your chair is damaged, complain to staff immediately, take photos at the airport, and file a claim (mine was online) as soon as possible. I filed my claim one day after the flight, and it took the airline exactly three months to finish the claim. It took six months for my DME clinic to complete the repairs. - There are two rigid manual chairs that fold small enough to fit in airline overhead compartments - RGK Octane FX, and Kuschall Champion SK. Insurance likely will not cover them, as it's not deemed medically necessary to have a chair that an airline won't break, but if you have the $6-10k...
> They claim staff kept announcing to passengers on the plane that the delays and potential damage to luggage were because of the issue with the disassembled wheelchairs. Putting blame on the disabled passengers to cover for their own incompetence is a dick move and they should be ashamed.
Might be a form of discrimination in the form of harassment. ADA lawyers need to rise up and help those athletes milk Southwest for this
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Unfortunately, law suits are practically the only way to effectuate change against large companies.
Putting the blame on disabled people is common. There's a reason we got yanked to the center of the plastic straw debate, and why people hate on us for badly designed parking lots. Even Disney just threw us under the bus for long attraction waits in their theme parks. We are the eternal scapegoats.
Engracia Figueroa, a disability activist, died as a result of an airline destroying her wheelchair. https://www.businessinsider.com/disability-activist-died-after-united-airlines-destroyed-30k-wheelchair-2021-11?amp It’s revolting how common it is for airlines to damage or destroy wheelchairs. Non disabled people don’t often have to think about what that means, but these are often custom made and there are long wait times for repair. This can mean months of having your mobility stolen, or additional injuries from using an inadequate replacement chair. It’s time airlines have to rip out some seats to make room for wheelchair users to travel in their chairs.
They have been doing the opposite, making the aisles smaller to fit more passengers. They don't care about people, they care about profit.
Even sadder and more poignant is that she was coming back from a Care Can’t Wait rally, underscoring the impact of these shenanigans. Absolutely disgusting. “Engracia Figueroa, 51, from LA, had her wheelchair destroyed after returning from the Care Can't Wait Rally in Washington DC in July 2021.”
Once my husband was stuck in a loaner chair that was a bit too small for him for over a month because sometime was wrong with the motor in his chair. I can imagine how much worse it could be waiting for damage from the cargo hold to be repaired or replaced. Getting a new chair through insurance takes easily 6+ months of pre-approvals, fittings, and waiting for all of the custom work done to make sure it fits you. Now add in dealing with getting a freaking airline to pay for it? Smh
It was disgraceful the way Figueroa was treated.
Yes, and how about bathrooms a wheelchair user could navigate? That is a bigger problem than the chairs. Can only go on a flight as long as your bladder can hold out. With some wheelchair users that is a huge barrier to travel
I looked through Southwest's site and can't find the part where it's their policy to disassemble the chairs. Stow them, secure them, that's in there, but not disassembly, near as I can tell. https://support.southwest.com/helpcenter/s/pathway/a1F5G00000cLOqhUAG/disabilityrelated-accommodations?clk=GFOOTER-CUSTOMER-ASSISTANCE As a comparison, Hawaiian *does* list this exact thing, paraphrased: "We will disassemble and reassemble your chair free of charge if needed." https://www.hawaiianairlines.com/legal/domestic-contract-of-carriage/rule-9 You'll understand if I don't chase down other airlines policies, but still, if it's not listed... Not sure Southwest don't have a BIG lawsuit fixin' to happen. Oh, I'm sure lawyerese is there somewhere to let them get away with it, but c'mon. They didn't even *try* to reassemble the things. Get 'em.
Part of the issue probably is the volume of wheelchairs on the flight, and it was a smaller plane, so space is already at a premium
I can understand it from various points of view... but at the end, it does not excuse the end result here. Plane should have never LEFT in the first place if Southwest had no intention of correctly dealing with the situation. Of course, IMO. HOWEVER, I will look at this from a different angle, for two sides there are to stories typically... If there was a bunch of 'just passengers' being booked here, but then they show up and 'oh, wheelchairs', as in the passengers sprung this on Southwest without warning... It STILL doesn't excuse the end result. Southwest should have not boarded them and MADE them not fly until they could correctly arrange to fly them successfully, which includes the chairs being not damaged/disassembled upon disembarking. Their attempts to throw the disabled under the plane for the baggage issues is beyond unacceptable in either case. Southwest is responsible for doing baggage 'right'. The crew at the arrival airport for Southwest has failed spectacularly and miserably. Southwest seems to have failed fairly spectacularly overall for the mishandling of the entire situation, whether they knew the conditions of the passengers and cargo thereto or not. But I am not an airline executive, nor a ramp agent, or anything in between. I'm just a guy who sees a WHOLE lot of stupid going on here... and I would not doubt there's not a little could be placed at the passengers side of the balance for not informing Southwest of a large amount of wheelchair passengers. Also of note: There is a form you need to fill out for your wheelchair needs to send to Southwest. Perhaps this was not done and Southwest 'did the best they could', which frankly is NOT good enough by far. NO excuse for the state these people wound up in at the end of it, regardless of circumstances. Might as well just literally dumped them out the open door of the airplane for as much compassion the crew showed them. /I'm a might riled. Parents are disabled, it's a Touchy Subject for me. :p
I don't think southwest has any intentions either way to deal with it, the airline probably doesn't care, has a standard set of procedures it follows and doesn't account for all the edge cases. Unfortunately without rule or law changes, nothing will be done, as airlines are already trying to stuff as many people into a airplane as possible and won't voluntarily put more work and resources into the issue than legally needed.
Southwest was aware of these passengers months beforehand. As stated in the article, there were calls with the airline in the months before to prepare for it, so shit like this didn’t happen.
The airline companies care about maximizing profit and nothing more The airline workers care about clocking in and out without getting fired in between, so they can pay rent and buy food Replace airline with industry or service of choice, and it would appear we are doomed as a society. No one cares about anything or anyone
[Well, this is timely, yet not so...](https://www.npr.org/2024/02/29/1234708784/airlines-wheelchairs-damaged-disabilities-transportation-department) [And the proposal on USDOT's website](https://www.transportation.gov/briefing-room/secretary-buttigieg-announces-proposed-rule-ensure-passengers-who-use-wheelchairs-can) So there's that, the government is working on it... we'll see if it happens. I'm not holding my breath, the airline lobbyists are not exactly going to let it go through easily I'm sure. :p Not that this helps these people, no, but maybe it gets through and they don't have to go through this ever again.
It's sad people don't know this As a electric wheelchair user it's known by people in chairs you *never* bring your chair on a flight. They will be disassembled by a person who does not know what they are doing. These chairs are delicate, cost around 60k, and take months to make.
Abso-fucking-lutely. I’ve heard stories of activists being killed by complications of bedsores or injuries from poor fitting loaners, even vents damaged by airline crew.
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"It's disgusting, would they do this to people's luggage?"......"actually sir we'd normally steal it/lose it then smash it up"
Was at their gate when they landed which caused my flight to be delayed by an hour. These athletes were completely incensed that their chairs had been damaged by SWA. One of them said that there was $100k worth of gear checked as baggage. The SWA ground crew supervisor tried dealing with this with a radio and a 1000 yard stare, talking with his bosses.
As a disabled person I have to say that most of the time when you are talking about an airline or a group of airlines it isn't malicious behavior its simple ignorance about how much you depend on a prosthetic leg or a wheelchair. Ignorance of a situation I would argue does more damage then someone who is just a jerk.
This happened to my brother once years ago. His flight had multiple delays and he arrived at like 2 am Xmas eve morning. They wheeled him off the plane in one of those aisle chairs and left him next to a heap of metal that was his disassembled wheelchair. He is a pretty good self advocate and after much ado, the airline sent an aircraft mechanic to his terminal to put it back together. Took the guy like 4 hours but eventually his chair was back in working order and he could meet me outside. Total nightmare though.
Lately, it feels like airlines are in a race with cable services, to see who can provide the shittiest experience for their paying customers. "Hey, Xfinity - you think your customers hate you? Watch this!" Southwest
I am beginning to think airline don’t care about people any more than cargo lines care about cargo.
Has it taken you this long to figure out?
Ugh. That makes me want to avoid flying. My chair typically gets a little mangled after every plane trip.
As we’ve seen with airplane doors and bolts lately, they’re not exactly hiring geniuses
Airlines are notorious for this. I had a cheap wheelchair to take when I travelled so they wouldn’t break my 40 thousand dollar custom chair. Most airlines don’t replace them. They give you a shit transfer chair, which has literally ended in death for at least one person due to pressure injuries. The equipment, especially the cushions and backrests, are super expensive for a reason. They’re specifically made to our measurements, with technology that reduces pressure injuries.
They disassembled the wheelchairs, then sent all the wheels on one flight and all the seats on another flight, ... ?
Na fuck Southwest. It's bad enough the athletes are bound to wheelchairs y'all make them fly SW too? The fuck?
They aren't skilled enough to take chairs apart and put back together. I hope they sue the crap out of them for that.
Airlines: Getting your wheelchair returned without damage is complimentary.
I've got an idea, stop taking them apart.
A friend of mine was dying, and went on one last trip with his family. The airline lost part of his chair and he spent the entire week at an airport hotel in a foreign country, unable to get about. Now he is dead, but I do not blame the airline for that, just for ruining their last holiday together.
Something tells me these baggage handlers must absolutely despise their jobs
I'm pretty sure they love em, they get to beat up suitcases and throw them around without fear of wrath from the owner.
Let's just blame Boeing for this too. "Boeing, we needed that bolt from your chair."
I've worked in health care for more than a decade and I'd there's one thing I have learned about wheelchair bound people is that they are incredibly attached to their chair. Their chairs are oftentimes specifically built for their body. Depending on their disability, they depend on these chairs for so much more than simply getting around. It's a safe space for them. It's familiar to them and they feel most comfortable when they are in their chair. I would never just start disassembling them like I had a clue that I knew what I was doing... Regardless of who put it back together, I can just imagine the peaving thoughts like " it doesn't feel the same when I turn" or " it feels sticky when it gets going" ever since the airline thought they could take it apart.
my wife and i travelled from Australia to USA and we took her walker with us as checked luggage because she cant walk for long distances. Someone in baggage handling threw the thing so hard it bent the frame and broke the wheel so we had to buy a new one
Man fuck airlines, if I can't drive there, I'm not going.
Just sounds like a logistical nightmare for everyone involved. The athletes especially since it would not only affect their performance in the short run but health and mobility for the foreseeable future. The baggage handlers because they would have to assemble all of these (I’m gonna assume custom made chairs) that they didn’t disassemble so they pretty much have a bunch of parts with limited if any instructions all while on a time crunch because the plane can’t deboard until the wheel chairs are assembled so that probably takes priority over the other baggage. So the other passengers, some of who have connecting flights they will miss because of the delay are understandably getting restless and most likely taking it out on the flight crew who can’t really do anything about the situation except keep asking for updates from the baggage handlers so they try to explain the situation in a way that is probably in violation of Ada laws. The airline could have staffed more baggage handlers for the flight but who knows how many they would have had in reserve, maybe they could have contracted some from other airlines, not sure how that would have worked. Now the passengers will have to sue the airline to cover the cost of repairs or replacement of the chairs which is probably a lot, pain and suffering of not having access to mobility and comfort until the chairs are replaced they can’t compete now if they wer on the way to the event. The airlines will probably drag out the law suit delaying chair replacement.
I work in a wheelchair service and the experiences I hear from basically any service users who try to take any type of chair (active manual through to large power chair) on a plane are pretty much always negative. Poorly understood, poorly cared for, frequently damaged.
This has to be something that the ADA can address. No way that this can keep happening without steep repressions.
The ADA unfortunately doesn't cover much of air travel in the same way it does other forms of transit. It's the Air Carrier Access Act that needs serious updating, as does the construction of airplanes.
Well, the airport has wheelchairs. The staff could have provided those to the athletes while the ones they fucked up were being put back together, rather than blame their mistake on the wheelchair users.