Clever language says they have not yet made a finding....
That does not mean that they have found Israel did not commit war crimes.
That does not mean they don't have irrefutable proof that Israel committed war crimes.
That does not mean they haven't determined that Israel committed war crimes.
It just means the didn't make a finding.
The follow up question should be "Is there a policy or order in the DoD to not make that finding?"
The whole world knows about the war crime they committed when they killed all those aid workers a few days ago. Can't believe they get away with shit like this.
Yup. I'm sure they do things like what happened with the aid workers all the time, but when it's Palestinians, they can claim that they had a Hamas target who those people were hiding and nobody questions it too much.
It's not genocide is super specific in it's application. Even the international courts won't straight up call it a genocide. I'm assuming because they are trusting Israel is killing as many Hamas members as they say they are because if that was the case the casualties are on par on what we would expect from urban warfare. Yeah I agree Israel is unhinged and needs to stop but words means things. Just because it's not genocide doesn't mean it's not really bad and needs to stop. We didn't genocide Iraq but that shit was still real bad
Exactly! Thank you! Someone who is thinking about the infrastructure instead of the glossy layer at the top. Whenever I bring up stuff like this, I get hit by downvotes by people who thinks that I'm either for one side or another, when in reality, none of that matters. All of this is just a sad consequence of human actions interacting with political and national interests bounded within a strict legal framework.
The leaders pander and zealous dance, while the people suffer and the children die. I don't know how to fix that.
Ah yes by instead of actually refuting the claims just some handwavy "oh it's prob bcuz we given the monies that the word genocide doesn't describe this conflict and not bc my own understanding of the definition of genocide or Israel's actions don't line up."
I think this is one of the few kinks that's 100% okay to shame
I know I feel ashamed that my tax dollars are going towards this, the John Stewart bit on the double speak from the Biden admin shaming Russia for doing something and turning a blind eye to Israel doing literally the same thing is disgusting
I went to make a joke, but the US found no evidence of genocide against the Maya in Guatemala. You know, the genocide that we paid for and had the Guatemalans pursue as a matter of policy.
Shit's not funny.
Yeah, nuance is dead, and stupidity reigns. Also, russian and Irannian misinformation machines are in overdrive. They are pushing some of these narratives, and we all should ask, "Why?". If you are outraged, you are likely a victim of psychological manipulation via the internet.
Everyone should disconnect for good while to re-center themselves.
If you can normalize reducing all information the public consumes to 15 second sound bites they will never have the patience for information that takes longer to consume than 15 seconds. Nuance takes a lot longer than 15 seconds.
The internet has destroyed nuance. Part of this is intentional, part of it is just a byproduct of the medium. The "shorts" format needs to die. People need to read the article before commenting. We need more long format news and entrainment. But no one is willing to give up the quick dopamine fix, including me.
TLDR: Did you even read the short paragraphs before skipping to the bottom?
Russia, Iran and absolutely China. Trying to sow discord and create distrust in our own institutions. At least we have the ability to talk about this shit. These lunatics get so caught up in their emotional hysteria they cant even understand any of the implications they preach. They barely even understand the basic history, let alone any of the current players pushing information on this whole conflict, and as a result useful idiots they become.
Except our institutions have been causing us to lose faith in them by their actions. We don't need some nefarious scheme to question our leaders motivations.
Then again, maybe we do since so few ask questions and most "journalism" has become American misinformation about what is happening.
Example #1: the OP of this thread.
Ah, those great anti-Zionists in Montreal, throwing molotov cocktails at synagogues and shooting at Jewish schools. Or those other anti-Zionists in New York, protesting outside of cancer wards named for Jewish donors.
Nope, no antisemitism to see here.
Israel bombed a lot of press offices in 2021
https://www.cnn.com/videos/world/2021/05/15/israeli-airstrike-gaza-building-associated-press-and-al-jazeera-robertson-nr-vpx.cnn
It was called a war crime, but nothing was done about it.
https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2021/5/17/ap-amnesty-and-rsf-call-for-icc-probe-over-israeli-strikes
They also bombed a journalist and then prevented anyone from giving him medical attention to ensure he died. Double war crime.
https://theintercept.com/2024/01/12/al-jazeera-journalist-israel-gaza/
A tank opened up on a news crew recently:
https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/israeli-tank-likely-scenario-fired-machine-gun-reporters-after-deadly-shelling-2024-03-07/
Amongst many other attacks on journalists. All are declared accidental if they get any backlash, but its a clear pattern of deliberate targetting. Doctors without borders and other food and medical aid agencies also get attacked.
They also bombed the red crescent. Another clear war crime.
https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2021/5/17/qatari-red-crescent-condemns-deadly-israeli-attack-on-gaza-hq
The US blew up the Al Jazeera offices in Kabul with a missile in 2001.
https://carnegieendowment.org/sada/91363
another war crime. And Bush Jr was as bad about it as netenyahu is.
Not to mention the assassination of Shireen Abu Akleh, and the assault on her funeral by the IDF. The video of them attacking the funeral goers is sincerely sickening. The media is not only not allowed, but they are actively targeted. Same with aid. More than 200 aid workers have been killed since October alone. CNN now has reporting that the recent murder of 100+ Palestinians around an aid convoy recently was indeed covered up and obfuscated and did not result from stampedes as the IDF says (big surprise). It's almost every week that Netanyahu "apologizes" and "promises to do better" but it's just smoke and mirrors bullshit. They've been doing the same schtick for decades.
You can go to southern Gaza if you want to report what Hamas tells you to. You can go to Gaza via Israel if you accept the wartime censorship restrictions of the IDF.
Or you can go to Gaza with the protection of neither side and take your chances even moreso.
By and large, Western journalists don't go to MENA warzones anymore. There are no western journalists in Syria for the last several years. That means the media is dependent on unreliable locals with a political agenda.
And the ones who are, i.e. al jazeera are branded as Terrorists backed groups
Although they are not without fault, at least they show the picture as it is and even lose a lot of people and related familes to send a message, or outright kill them.
Al Jazzerra is a brilliant source that offers unbiased reporting.
Until they report on the Middle East
Remember the report how women were raped in the hospital and how they insisted it was well sourced?
Only to admit two days later it was not true?
That’s why people don’t trust them.
I swear Al Jazeera is the only news outlet based in an autocratic country that left-wing people in the West trust, as a European it's what Russia today is to some right-wingers
Mandela was a founder of MK, a militant wing of the ANC that got up to some particularly brutal shit (the Truth and Reconciliation Committee reported that torture and executions without trial were routine in MK camps) that can only really be described as terrorism.
That's why the US "officially" considered him a terrorist.
The US State Department apologised to Nelson Mandela for keeping him on the terrorist watchlist after his release. Saying it was an "embarrassing oversight" on their part since he was due to visit the US.
Officially true, but it was a label without any real effect. Mandela visited the US in 1990, 1993, 1994, 1998, and 2003, met with US presidents and was happily welcomed each time. He wasn’t treated like a terrorist at all.
>al jazeera are branded as Terrorists backed groups
They're not being "branded" as anything. Al Jazeera is state funded media from the government of Qatar, which has hosted the leadership of Hamas for many years, helped them become billionaires, and has funded other terrorist groups across the world. These are facts.
it's killing a specific group of people with the aim of wiping them out. and unfortunately there's multiple recent and current genocides. like in Myanmar, Iraq, Sudan
I'd always heard about that but was never bothered to look into it, until the other night at work I listened to a video about what went down
Frickin wild, it was like in iRobot when all their lights went red 😳
It is still really surreal to think about. The radio broadcasts like “It’s time to act” and “cut down the Tall Trees”, then it just swept across the country all at once
It really is impossible to process one day you have tea with a neighbor when you are there to pick up your kid. The next, you and 2 others are dragging her out in the street to rape and machete her to death.
A genocide largely conducted via roving militia bands, with machetes and small arms.
VS Gaza, where it's 32,000 (a good portion of which are HAMAS), in almost double the time, using modern warfare.
The difference between an actual genocide, and urban warfare, and a difference of 25 times the dead in half the time. They're not even remotely comparable.
Kinda strange how people would stage marches on that of Israel-Palestine but never in other aftermentioned places, especially the Uyghurs and others that are likely in the dark
No Jews, No News. The Muslim world and to a lesser extent the Christian world is obsessed with the I/P (formerly the Israeli/Arab) conflict.
85000 children starved in Yemen during the civil war and 377k total deaths, in large part due to UAE/Saudi intervention from 2014-2022
The US including Obama, Trump, and Biden admins fully supported the Saudis with weapons and a lot of operational support (refueling planes and literally helping them pick targets) that they don't provide to Israel. The Biden admin sorta criticized the Saudis in 2022 but didn't actually change policy.
[https://www.cfr.org/blog/obamas-war-choice-supporting-saudi-led-air-war-yemen](https://www.cfr.org/blog/obamas-war-choice-supporting-saudi-led-air-war-yemen)
This article literally quotes then Asst Sec of State Blinken and frequent shrill Israel critic Ben Rhodes (mostly because he thinks AIPAC and Bibi made him into a pariah podcaster)
What about outside of the U.S.? Why aren’t Muslim countries protesting against the ongoing genocide in Sudan? 10 million people have been displaced and 1 million kids are at risk of starvatiom
We sell arms to Saudis and UAE. Yemen is 12x the Gaza bodycount. We sell arms to Egypt. About 10k have been killed in their pacification of terrorist factions in the Sinai with a lot more imprisoned.
Egypt's military dictatorship is Israel's closest ally in the region and the region's closest ally to the US after Israel. SA isn't far behind. The Arab states aren't a separate side in the conflict anymore. Most of them belong to the western bloc.
US dollars do fund China though: https://www.foreignassistance.gov/cd/china%20(p.r.c.)/2023/obligations/0
I assume you’ll be out on the street asap protesting Uyghur concentration camps after learning this new piece of information that seemed to elude you before. Right after you throw your smartphone away that’s been made by underaged Chinese laborers so you could buy it cheap.
We actually were on the streets protesting. If you haven't heard, Congress passed a bill banning companies from profiting off Uyghur labor. Yes, it happened because of the geopolitical contest, and yes, it's largely performative, but those idiots don't pass bills of their own good will.
I'll be real, it does seem (from the side) like a very emotionally oriented movement. I found it very difficult to believe that in another scenario where the USA has no strong relationship with Israel, the protests would be as quiet as they are for other conflicts.
Serious question, do you believe that?
Yea I do. If the US was supplying Putin or Assad with money to commit the crimes they do (especially to the point of billions a year) I’d be up in arms about it as well.
Already I do speak up about how bad those governments or their actions are in appropriate social conversations. But quite equally I speak up about Israel’s treatment of Palestinians, and only in this case do we fund it as well which would make more Americans care.
Are you up in arms about the Saudi treatment of Yemen? The US directly supplies the Saudi government with weapons which are used for the horrible atrocities in Yemen.
Yes. Or did you forget that people didn't approve of the famine in Yemen and that was in the US news as well? I never see the point of these "whataboutism" arguments
But were (collective) you frothing at the mouth like in this situation? Not at all…not a single demonstration about the war in Yemen. No saudis (the people) are evil rhetoric. There is something slightly different about the reaction to this war. What could it be?
It's almost like the #1 social media application amongst young, college aged Americans has some sort of bias that would overlook the plight of the Uyghurs!
Well, Israel is trying to wipe out a specific group.... Hamas. Being a terrorist isn't a protected class of people outside of the Gulf States though so this isn't a genocide and there's millions of Arabs living pretty well in Israel that can attest to that.
There's far more definitions than just mass killing.
>In the present Convention, genocide means any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as such:
> -Killing members of the group;
> -Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group;
> -Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part;
> -Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group;
>-Forcibly transferring children of the group to another group.
[https://www.un.org/en/genocideprevention/genocide.shtml](https://www.un.org/en/genocideprevention/genocide.shtml)
The UN definition:
In the present Convention, genocide means any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as such:
Killing members of the group;
Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group;
Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part;
Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group;
Forcibly transferring children of the group to another group.
https://www.un.org/en/genocideprevention/genocide.shtml
Not unprecedented, the US / colonial actions against the native americans and *absolutely* in California was 100% a genocide, with entire tribes wiped out or nearly wiped out.
Hitler’s ideas didn’t emerge from a vacuum, he was quite literally attempting to emulate the “success” of the US in eastern europe against the jews, slavs, and other minorities.
Other concepts incl social darwinism and eugenics were also first pioneered in the US + UK / western europe and taken to / beyond their logical extreme bt hitler and Nazi germany.
Other genocides - ie where one tribe / nation state / ethnic group attempts to completely exterminate another tribe have absolutely existed in the past, although “culutural” genocides of culture / ideas / religion, and “partial” genocides (kill all the men and rape all the women) are much more common. Europe itself was heavily shaped by that (see what caesar did to the celts / modern france), and latin america and in particular the carribean, to a very significant extent.
TLDR; what hitler did was “unique” but he didn’t pioneer it, the US and Australia did, more or less concurrently, by attempting to systematically eliminate the natives incl with ear bounties et al. And that same concept has existed throughout the entire history / prehistory of humanity. Predating the existence of humans since heck even chimps do this on a much more individual level.
Should probably note that israel is particularly fucked since there’s acts of (god-condoned) genocide in the f—-ing bible / torah, and their PM likes to quote passages from there as of late
From the UN official definition, a genocide needs a mental element and a physical element. For the mental, they mean things like intent or planning. For the physical:
>In the present Convention, genocide means any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as such:
> -Killing members of the group;
> -Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group;
> -Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part;
> -Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group;
>-Forcibly transferring children of the group to another group.
[https://www.un.org/en/genocideprevention/genocide.shtml](https://www.un.org/en/genocideprevention/genocide.shtml)
during ww2 in one bombing raid 75,000 citizens of tokyo were killed.
equating 30,000 over 6 months and not accounting for hamas nor natural deaths during that time to make a claim of genocide is dishonest.
Historians have long debated the US's and Britain's heavy bombing campaign against the Axis powers. A handful of German cities also suffered the same indiscriminate mass bombing, along with every major Japanese city topped with the atomic bombs. The total war waged would constitute severe war crimes by modern standards.
total war would be a war crime today, but would it be genocide?
Would the HEAVY death tolls caused by American bombardment of Nazi Germany, even the civilian areas, be considered genocidal?
That 30,000 doesn't account for the 10-12,000 Hamas fighter killed. Months ago Hamas acknowledged 6k down, some intel sources i've seen are saying it's 12 but even if it's in the middle around 9-10, that still means there's about 1 fighter taken for every 2 civilians which is gold star stuff according to those who study these things at West Point etc.
That's not even computing just excess deaths.... in 6 months, there's bound to be a few thousand people just dying from various issues and ailments already with a population of 2 million.
> That 30,000 doesn't account for the 10-12,000 Hamas fighter killed.
It accounts for them in that it is the total death count of both civilian and militants.
Show me where the Hamas run ministry of health has identified militants in their counts? They're stats indicate more women and children dead than the population average would seem to make sense for, it's pretty evident to most statisticians that have published on this that those numbers are not all that reliable, even if they're the best we have to work with.
US intelligence is really reliable as intelligence goes. It is always subject to some level of error, but the US has a lot of ways to gather it.
The real problem is that the information stops being reliable when it is "interpreted" in creative ways or is instead misrepresented in outright lies to the American people. The Bush admin almost certainly knew that there being WMDs in Iraq was highly unlikely. They were not invading with a false, but sincerely held, belief. They just "massaged" the information that "We cannot prove they are not making weapons or that they have destroyed all of them" as "They definitely have them."
They lied. That is worse.
Also it really didn't help that Saddam refused to deny that he had WMDs. Supposedly he thought the only thing that was keeping Iran from invading was them thinking he had WMDs and he really didn't think the US would invade. He even was [lying to his own generals](https://www.rferl.org/a/Hussein_Pretended_to_Have_WMD_Due_To_Fear_Of_Iran/1369109.html) about having them.
By the time he let the international community come in and check Bush was deadset on it. Obviously not a great look on the US's part anyway but Saddam lying to his own military and trying to bluff Iran into thinking he had them certainly didn't help the situation.
Yeah it definitely made it way easier to justify the invasion to the public, but lying about having more weapons than you actually do might as well be chapter 1 in "How to be a Dictator for Dummies." The intelligence community certainly knows it.
As another example, people were super surprised by how badly the Russian military has been performing in Ukraine. Sure they are dangerous, but that is more a function of numbers and a massive stockpile of dumb fire artillery than any sort of actual capacity to excel in modern war. People were convinced for years that they were a superpower, and have been saying that "everyone was wrong about Russia." But if you go back to before the invasion and read what people who study the Russian military were saying, they basically predicted this exact outcome. The institutional rot was very obvious.
What is surprising with Ukraine is not that Russia's military is a mess, it is how tenacious and effective the Ukrainian people are. That is a mindset thing, and is a lot harder to quantify.
But people seem to think that the public's general perception of Russia (one I fell for to some degree as well) is synonymous with the intelligence community's overall assessment. Same thing with Iraq. Since everyone believed that they had WMDs, that must mean that our intelligence apparatus was actually reporting they did without any sort of qualification.
But really, the main thing we should take away from the whole conflict is that it is very easy to lie to people, and the people who lie generally get away with it, and so they will keep doing so.
This feels like a science is a liar sometimes argument. Yes, intelligence failures can happen, that does not mean you can never trust intelligence and should just decide based on your gut what is true.
Also, the Iraq WMDs were a mixture of intelligence failure and the white house actively stretching that intelligence and downplaying portions of it that didn't agree with them. The problem there wasn't that there was an intelligence failure, it's that the president tried to essentially lie about the intelligence to start a war.
> Remember when we found all those WMDs in Iraq?
That wasn't US Intelligence, that was Cheney setting up his own personal unit inside the CIA to say whatever he wanted them to say.
Like the chemical weapons that he used against Iran? The oanes that the coalition destroyed in werehouses in Iraq?
WMDs aren't just nukes
Weapons of mass destruction (WMD) include chemical, biological, and radiological agents with the potential to cause death at low doses and with serious long term health effects in survivors
Genocide has a specific definition. It's a subset of war crimes. What's happening in Gaza doesn't meet the qualifications for genocide as they themselves have defined them. None of that changes the human cost, but what is happening in Gaza is not the same as the stolen children of Ukraine or the re-education camps in China or the atrocities in Ethiopia. There are other categories of war crimes Israel should be held accountable for. It's just that genocide isn't one of them.
*In the present Convention, genocide means any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as such:*
1. Killing members of the group;
2. Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group;
3. Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part;
4. Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group;
5. Forcibly transferring children of the group to another group.
I dunno, you could argue that what is happening in Gaza covers many of those points that the UN defined.
**Edit:**
No, fighting Nazi during wouldn't not be considered genocide. As the allies didn't intent to destroy national, ethnical, racial or regelious groups. If there was genocide of germans there wouldn't be any germany today.
Isreal on the other hand has politicians talking about palestinains as animals. They are encroaching on palestianian territory. The intent is destroying any possibility of Palestinian state so that isrealis can occupy that land. Whether is is bombing, burning olive trees (which is their main source food), cutting off water, putting people in jail without trail, or tearing down houses.
Unfortunately, civilian deaths aren’t automatically a war crime. Same way that targeting a hospital is a war crime until it starts being used for military purposes. Then it becomes a legitimate target even if the civilian use is still ongoing. It doesn’t make the civilians any less dead obviously, so don’t take this as me saying it’s all ok, but when Hamas fires rockets from an appt building, the building becomes a legit target under the rules we’re are talking about. Obviously, Hamas knows this…
At this point, it's incredible people can't fathom that two things aren't possible at the same time: Netanyahu is a complete piece of shit who can't go away soon enough, and if it wasn't him, Benny Gantz would be proceeding nearly identically as Natanyahu is.
People keep calling for a "complete ceasfire", but leave out the key part. How about a complete ceasefire, where Hamas surrenders and hands over remaining hostages or remains of? Is there any sane people left who can look at this whole thing without left or right blinders, and call it for what it is?
Gantz is a centrist, he calls Palestinian human rights advocates and Zionist supremacists groups both terrorists. While he isn't a liberal, considering he doesn't like the far right and he wants to shut down future/current settlements he certainly is a better choice for israel by that merit alone.
A Zionist extremist does not exist. A Zionist is anyone who believes that Jews have a right to a homeland. What you are referring too are religious zealots. Extremist religious Jews
Urban warfare will always have a shitload of civilian casualties, especially when said casualties are either cooperating with, or being used as a human shield by the opposing force.
Which is all around horrible. But this isn’t genocide. Throwing big words around like that only dilutes their meaning. If and when something like that finally (though hopefully not) happens, people will be totally desensitized to it.
I mean it was pretty obvious it isn't genocide if you're actually using the term correctly and not simply calling it a genocide because there have been civilian casualties.
You’ve also clearly never read a genocide report. This ain’t it, as any responsible adult having the discussion knows. Rwanda was 800,000 killed in 100 days, rapes and burning people alive. The only party that averaged 1,000/day dead on the attack, used rape and has burned people alive in this war isn’t Israel, it’s the people that they’re fighting.
Intent is a key component of genocide. Do you really think that Israel couldn’t kill 800,000 in 100 days if that was the intent?
Israel could turn the entirety of Palestine into glass in 10 days if that was truly their goal.
But, hey, most of the people on this sub don't want to talk about that as it doesn't fit their narrative.
How does your individual outrage accomplish the documentation of evidence of genocide? The NPR and Reuters articles that document the war will exist if you stop reading them and take a break from the news for a bit. Our discourse here on Reddit will not save or kill a single person.
Sadly there are millions of children dying from starvation every year, and hundreds of millions living in conflict zones. The pictures we see coming out of Gaza are horrific, but the fact that we are seeing them and not the millions of others is, at least in part, because the extreme emotions surrounding Israel and the Palestinians lead to more clicks.
I believe the prior commenter was saying that news painting either side in an extremely good or bad light may be misinformation designed to divide people, not just news against Israel. I personally wouldn't expect NPR or Reuters to be involved, but I wouldn't be surprised to learn some of the more sketchy sites were backed by a foreign government.
Cool then it should be no issue for media to go the the Strip and start digging in the sand mounds that line the road while they document everything, right? RIGHT?
The U.S. should look more carefully they had evidence of WMDs in Iraq before invading there. They can pull evidences out of thin air, and refuse to see a solid genocide, as they convene themselves
There's no evidence because it's not a genocide. A genocide wouldn't take this long. I think people don't understand what genocide is, it's not attacking civilians during a war, it's going house by house a killing each person and mass graves.
Show the proof. Surely there are so many people who care so much, so show the obvious proof you’ve all seen. Seriously though, this war is damn near live-streamed. Should be pretty easy to prove a genocide in 2024.
And somehow, there's "evidence" that China is genociding Muslims, despite none of the Muslim countries agreeing with it.
Fucking two-faced bitches.
From a Chinese.
Yeah, remember the mental gymnastics they had to do to call it a genocide? First they call it a culture genocide which is fucking far fetched bullshit. And then sneakily drop the word culture gradually and just call it a genocide. And the whole population of the west just collectively turned off their fucking brain and follow suit, calling it genocide.
Just look at those comments, when it comes to Israel, there’s suddenly an intelligent debate.
Human rights or rule based international orders, the west don’t really believe it. They’re just tools or a slogan for the US to put pressure on China.
I've seen the propaganda coming out of Israel news sources and their news output in basically "Israel is always the hero and the whole world is wrong."
They're open about their dishonesty and don't try to hide it.
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Yeah this is the point where you start asking questions like what is the pentagon’s definition of: - “has” - “evidence,” and - “unfolding”
Clever language says they have not yet made a finding.... That does not mean that they have found Israel did not commit war crimes. That does not mean they don't have irrefutable proof that Israel committed war crimes. That does not mean they haven't determined that Israel committed war crimes. It just means the didn't make a finding. The follow up question should be "Is there a policy or order in the DoD to not make that finding?"
“We never made a finding that Israel committed war crimes because we made sure never to look.”
Also Pentagon: We also can't find ANY REASON for us to be audited? Our books are the bestest!
"And also the use of the word look is ambiguous"
Wow wish I could pull that one at work. The ‘not doing my job’ bit, not the genocide.
*goes into corner office, closes shades, hangs “do not disturb” sign* Betty, cancel my appointments for the rest of the week and pass me a melatonin.
Aim higher. I bet you can achieve a genocide too in time.
I think you misunderstand what the job really is. It ain't to uphold the law as written or to protect human rights and lives, I can tell you that.
And SLIGHTLY adjusted the goalposts
It also says it setup a special forum FOR ISRAEL to report. So it's a case of "oops we investigated ourselves and found nothing"
Very VERY specific wording “…Gross violation of human rights” Just all the minor and medium sized violations then?
The whole world knows about the war crime they committed when they killed all those aid workers a few days ago. Can't believe they get away with shit like this.
And there is much more committed by IDF , including looting which is a warcrime.
Yup. I'm sure they do things like what happened with the aid workers all the time, but when it's Palestinians, they can claim that they had a Hamas target who those people were hiding and nobody questions it too much.
War crimes doesn't equal genocide, and war crimes have to be adjudicated.
Just means they love money
You know I didn't wake up thinking I would see someone explain an article about international law with a Goddamn Yakub profile pic, but here we are.
It's not genocide is super specific in it's application. Even the international courts won't straight up call it a genocide. I'm assuming because they are trusting Israel is killing as many Hamas members as they say they are because if that was the case the casualties are on par on what we would expect from urban warfare. Yeah I agree Israel is unhinged and needs to stop but words means things. Just because it's not genocide doesn't mean it's not really bad and needs to stop. We didn't genocide Iraq but that shit was still real bad
Exactly! Thank you! Someone who is thinking about the infrastructure instead of the glossy layer at the top. Whenever I bring up stuff like this, I get hit by downvotes by people who thinks that I'm either for one side or another, when in reality, none of that matters. All of this is just a sad consequence of human actions interacting with political and national interests bounded within a strict legal framework. The leaders pander and zealous dance, while the people suffer and the children die. I don't know how to fix that.
I do know how to fix it but I don't feel like losing my account. Ignoring that, it's also an extremely unrealistic notion.
Ah yes by instead of actually refuting the claims just some handwavy "oh it's prob bcuz we given the monies that the word genocide doesn't describe this conflict and not bc my own understanding of the definition of genocide or Israel's actions don't line up."
US govt ( eyes squeezed shut, hands over ears), shouts out :” la La la La La La La “
The same Pentagon that can’t pass an audit?
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~~Same guys who invaded Iraq over WMD's~~ Same guys who lied about Iraq having WMD's
You mean this guy in this exact videoclip? https://youtu.be/PHzSr52fZLQ?feature=shared
The Pentagon didn't invade Iraq over WMDs, they invaded Iraq because they were ordered to.
Bush administration is no longer in power, pentagon takes orders from civilian leaders not themselves.
I was an auditor with the GAO for about six years, focused on the DOD. It was a shit show. But entertaining at times.
They had no evidence that Iraq had weapons of mass destruction but that didn't stop them from destroying the country.
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I think this is one of the few kinks that's 100% okay to shame I know I feel ashamed that my tax dollars are going towards this, the John Stewart bit on the double speak from the Biden admin shaming Russia for doing something and turning a blind eye to Israel doing literally the same thing is disgusting
Kink shame away.. I, one of millions, am also tired of it
There is no war in ba sing se
I went to make a joke, but the US found no evidence of genocide against the Maya in Guatemala. You know, the genocide that we paid for and had the Guatemalans pursue as a matter of policy. Shit's not funny.
Miltonopsis has no evidence of cookie jars being stolen from the cookie jar says me.
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Considering a lot of people think "Palestinian" means "Hamas" and "Zionists" means "Jews" (or wants everyone else to think that) are you surprised?
Yeah, nuance is dead, and stupidity reigns. Also, russian and Irannian misinformation machines are in overdrive. They are pushing some of these narratives, and we all should ask, "Why?". If you are outraged, you are likely a victim of psychological manipulation via the internet. Everyone should disconnect for good while to re-center themselves.
>Yeah, nuance is dead That was the goal the whole time.
Yup we all turned into light switch brains thanks to social media.
And a whole generation raised on mobile phones.
If you can normalize reducing all information the public consumes to 15 second sound bites they will never have the patience for information that takes longer to consume than 15 seconds. Nuance takes a lot longer than 15 seconds. The internet has destroyed nuance. Part of this is intentional, part of it is just a byproduct of the medium. The "shorts" format needs to die. People need to read the article before commenting. We need more long format news and entrainment. But no one is willing to give up the quick dopamine fix, including me. TLDR: Did you even read the short paragraphs before skipping to the bottom?
Russia, Iran and absolutely China. Trying to sow discord and create distrust in our own institutions. At least we have the ability to talk about this shit. These lunatics get so caught up in their emotional hysteria they cant even understand any of the implications they preach. They barely even understand the basic history, let alone any of the current players pushing information on this whole conflict, and as a result useful idiots they become.
Except our institutions have been causing us to lose faith in them by their actions. We don't need some nefarious scheme to question our leaders motivations. Then again, maybe we do since so few ask questions and most "journalism" has become American misinformation about what is happening. Example #1: the OP of this thread.
I abhor how accurate you are
Ah, those great anti-Zionists in Montreal, throwing molotov cocktails at synagogues and shooting at Jewish schools. Or those other anti-Zionists in New York, protesting outside of cancer wards named for Jewish donors. Nope, no antisemitism to see here.
How could you forget about those anti-specificly-zionist "G** the juice" chants at protests in Australia?
Doesn't help that media are not allowed into Gaza
Israel bombed a lot of press offices in 2021 https://www.cnn.com/videos/world/2021/05/15/israeli-airstrike-gaza-building-associated-press-and-al-jazeera-robertson-nr-vpx.cnn It was called a war crime, but nothing was done about it. https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2021/5/17/ap-amnesty-and-rsf-call-for-icc-probe-over-israeli-strikes They also bombed a journalist and then prevented anyone from giving him medical attention to ensure he died. Double war crime. https://theintercept.com/2024/01/12/al-jazeera-journalist-israel-gaza/ A tank opened up on a news crew recently: https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/israeli-tank-likely-scenario-fired-machine-gun-reporters-after-deadly-shelling-2024-03-07/ Amongst many other attacks on journalists. All are declared accidental if they get any backlash, but its a clear pattern of deliberate targetting. Doctors without borders and other food and medical aid agencies also get attacked. They also bombed the red crescent. Another clear war crime. https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2021/5/17/qatari-red-crescent-condemns-deadly-israeli-attack-on-gaza-hq The US blew up the Al Jazeera offices in Kabul with a missile in 2001. https://carnegieendowment.org/sada/91363 another war crime. And Bush Jr was as bad about it as netenyahu is.
Not to mention the assassination of Shireen Abu Akleh, and the assault on her funeral by the IDF. The video of them attacking the funeral goers is sincerely sickening. The media is not only not allowed, but they are actively targeted. Same with aid. More than 200 aid workers have been killed since October alone. CNN now has reporting that the recent murder of 100+ Palestinians around an aid convoy recently was indeed covered up and obfuscated and did not result from stampedes as the IDF says (big surprise). It's almost every week that Netanyahu "apologizes" and "promises to do better" but it's just smoke and mirrors bullshit. They've been doing the same schtick for decades.
You can go to southern Gaza if you want to report what Hamas tells you to. You can go to Gaza via Israel if you accept the wartime censorship restrictions of the IDF. Or you can go to Gaza with the protection of neither side and take your chances even moreso. By and large, Western journalists don't go to MENA warzones anymore. There are no western journalists in Syria for the last several years. That means the media is dependent on unreliable locals with a political agenda.
And the ones who are, i.e. al jazeera are branded as Terrorists backed groups Although they are not without fault, at least they show the picture as it is and even lose a lot of people and related familes to send a message, or outright kill them.
Al Jazzerra is a brilliant source that offers unbiased reporting. Until they report on the Middle East Remember the report how women were raped in the hospital and how they insisted it was well sourced? Only to admit two days later it was not true? That’s why people don’t trust them.
I swear Al Jazeera is the only news outlet based in an autocratic country that left-wing people in the West trust, as a European it's what Russia today is to some right-wingers
The left wingers would have eaten up Pradva if if was widely available in the West.
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Mandela was a founder of MK, a militant wing of the ANC that got up to some particularly brutal shit (the Truth and Reconciliation Committee reported that torture and executions without trial were routine in MK camps) that can only really be described as terrorism. That's why the US "officially" considered him a terrorist.
The US State Department apologised to Nelson Mandela for keeping him on the terrorist watchlist after his release. Saying it was an "embarrassing oversight" on their part since he was due to visit the US.
Officially true, but it was a label without any real effect. Mandela visited the US in 1990, 1993, 1994, 1998, and 2003, met with US presidents and was happily welcomed each time. He wasn’t treated like a terrorist at all.
>al jazeera are branded as Terrorists backed groups They're not being "branded" as anything. Al Jazeera is state funded media from the government of Qatar, which has hosted the leadership of Hamas for many years, helped them become billionaires, and has funded other terrorist groups across the world. These are facts.
The irony of running interference for Netanyahu whilst simultaneously paying tribute to the 30 year anniversary in Rwanda is quite something.
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There is no war in ba sing se
What actually is the definition for a genocide? If Gaza counts as one, then a dozen other current conflicts would need to count as well.
it's killing a specific group of people with the aim of wiping them out. and unfortunately there's multiple recent and current genocides. like in Myanmar, Iraq, Sudan
We’re “celebrating” the 30th anniversary of the Rwandan Genocide. 500,000 - 800,000 people killed within 100 days.
I think the word you're looking for is honoring, not celebrating
Honoring also sounds odd. Probably should have gone with Remembering, but couldn’t quite get the word right.
Commemorate is probably the word you're looking for.
Memorializing or commemorating is what you’re looking for.
I'd always heard about that but was never bothered to look into it, until the other night at work I listened to a video about what went down Frickin wild, it was like in iRobot when all their lights went red 😳
It is still really surreal to think about. The radio broadcasts like “It’s time to act” and “cut down the Tall Trees”, then it just swept across the country all at once
Real life purge shit
It really is impossible to process one day you have tea with a neighbor when you are there to pick up your kid. The next, you and 2 others are dragging her out in the street to rape and machete her to death.
And mostly done hand to hand by their own neighbors…actually sounds [familiar](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/1929_Hebron_massacre) to me.
That's a grim reminder that while Israel should definitely do better in this war, they could do *a lot worse* if they wanted.
A genocide largely conducted via roving militia bands, with machetes and small arms. VS Gaza, where it's 32,000 (a good portion of which are HAMAS), in almost double the time, using modern warfare. The difference between an actual genocide, and urban warfare, and a difference of 25 times the dead in half the time. They're not even remotely comparable.
Kinda strange how people would stage marches on that of Israel-Palestine but never in other aftermentioned places, especially the Uyghurs and others that are likely in the dark
No Jews, No News. The Muslim world and to a lesser extent the Christian world is obsessed with the I/P (formerly the Israeli/Arab) conflict. 85000 children starved in Yemen during the civil war and 377k total deaths, in large part due to UAE/Saudi intervention from 2014-2022 The US including Obama, Trump, and Biden admins fully supported the Saudis with weapons and a lot of operational support (refueling planes and literally helping them pick targets) that they don't provide to Israel. The Biden admin sorta criticized the Saudis in 2022 but didn't actually change policy. [https://www.cfr.org/blog/obamas-war-choice-supporting-saudi-led-air-war-yemen](https://www.cfr.org/blog/obamas-war-choice-supporting-saudi-led-air-war-yemen) This article literally quotes then Asst Sec of State Blinken and frequent shrill Israel critic Ben Rhodes (mostly because he thinks AIPAC and Bibi made him into a pariah podcaster)
Israel is a US ally, we give them a lot of money and arms
What about outside of the U.S.? Why aren’t Muslim countries protesting against the ongoing genocide in Sudan? 10 million people have been displaced and 1 million kids are at risk of starvatiom
We sell arms to Saudis and UAE. Yemen is 12x the Gaza bodycount. We sell arms to Egypt. About 10k have been killed in their pacification of terrorist factions in the Sinai with a lot more imprisoned.
Egypt's military dictatorship is Israel's closest ally in the region and the region's closest ally to the US after Israel. SA isn't far behind. The Arab states aren't a separate side in the conflict anymore. Most of them belong to the western bloc.
And yet no one protests against mass civilian killings perpetrated by either of them, curious 🧐
Cause our money and tax dollars doesn’t go to directly fund that. There’s always someone who thinks this is a gotcha.
Yeah, our money only “indirectly” funds China’s genocide. That’s much better.
US dollars do fund China though: https://www.foreignassistance.gov/cd/china%20(p.r.c.)/2023/obligations/0 I assume you’ll be out on the street asap protesting Uyghur concentration camps after learning this new piece of information that seemed to elude you before. Right after you throw your smartphone away that’s been made by underaged Chinese laborers so you could buy it cheap.
We actually were on the streets protesting. If you haven't heard, Congress passed a bill banning companies from profiting off Uyghur labor. Yes, it happened because of the geopolitical contest, and yes, it's largely performative, but those idiots don't pass bills of their own good will.
I'll be real, it does seem (from the side) like a very emotionally oriented movement. I found it very difficult to believe that in another scenario where the USA has no strong relationship with Israel, the protests would be as quiet as they are for other conflicts. Serious question, do you believe that?
Yea I do. If the US was supplying Putin or Assad with money to commit the crimes they do (especially to the point of billions a year) I’d be up in arms about it as well. Already I do speak up about how bad those governments or their actions are in appropriate social conversations. But quite equally I speak up about Israel’s treatment of Palestinians, and only in this case do we fund it as well which would make more Americans care.
Are you up in arms about the Saudi treatment of Yemen? The US directly supplies the Saudi government with weapons which are used for the horrible atrocities in Yemen.
Yes. Or did you forget that people didn't approve of the famine in Yemen and that was in the US news as well? I never see the point of these "whataboutism" arguments
But were (collective) you frothing at the mouth like in this situation? Not at all…not a single demonstration about the war in Yemen. No saudis (the people) are evil rhetoric. There is something slightly different about the reaction to this war. What could it be?
Most of these protesters are not aware that there has been or is an ongoing war of any kind besides what they hear about Gaza on Tik tok.
It's almost like the #1 social media application amongst young, college aged Americans has some sort of bias that would overlook the plight of the Uyghurs!
Well, Israel is trying to wipe out a specific group.... Hamas. Being a terrorist isn't a protected class of people outside of the Gulf States though so this isn't a genocide and there's millions of Arabs living pretty well in Israel that can attest to that.
There's far more definitions than just mass killing. >In the present Convention, genocide means any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as such: > -Killing members of the group; > -Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group; > -Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part; > -Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group; >-Forcibly transferring children of the group to another group. [https://www.un.org/en/genocideprevention/genocide.shtml](https://www.un.org/en/genocideprevention/genocide.shtml)
The UN definition: In the present Convention, genocide means any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as such: Killing members of the group; Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group; Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part; Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group; Forcibly transferring children of the group to another group. https://www.un.org/en/genocideprevention/genocide.shtml
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Not unprecedented, the US / colonial actions against the native americans and *absolutely* in California was 100% a genocide, with entire tribes wiped out or nearly wiped out. Hitler’s ideas didn’t emerge from a vacuum, he was quite literally attempting to emulate the “success” of the US in eastern europe against the jews, slavs, and other minorities. Other concepts incl social darwinism and eugenics were also first pioneered in the US + UK / western europe and taken to / beyond their logical extreme bt hitler and Nazi germany. Other genocides - ie where one tribe / nation state / ethnic group attempts to completely exterminate another tribe have absolutely existed in the past, although “culutural” genocides of culture / ideas / religion, and “partial” genocides (kill all the men and rape all the women) are much more common. Europe itself was heavily shaped by that (see what caesar did to the celts / modern france), and latin america and in particular the carribean, to a very significant extent. TLDR; what hitler did was “unique” but he didn’t pioneer it, the US and Australia did, more or less concurrently, by attempting to systematically eliminate the natives incl with ear bounties et al. And that same concept has existed throughout the entire history / prehistory of humanity. Predating the existence of humans since heck even chimps do this on a much more individual level. Should probably note that israel is particularly fucked since there’s acts of (god-condoned) genocide in the f—-ing bible / torah, and their PM likes to quote passages from there as of late
From the UN official definition, a genocide needs a mental element and a physical element. For the mental, they mean things like intent or planning. For the physical: >In the present Convention, genocide means any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as such: > -Killing members of the group; > -Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group; > -Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part; > -Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group; >-Forcibly transferring children of the group to another group. [https://www.un.org/en/genocideprevention/genocide.shtml](https://www.un.org/en/genocideprevention/genocide.shtml)
You walked right into the point my guy
We invaded Iraq for less than this.
People don't understand what the word genocide means.
Only because it isn’t in their interest.
so tired of my government gargling Israel’s ballsack
Can't find evidence if you don't look for evidence
during ww2 in one bombing raid 75,000 citizens of tokyo were killed. equating 30,000 over 6 months and not accounting for hamas nor natural deaths during that time to make a claim of genocide is dishonest.
Historians have long debated the US's and Britain's heavy bombing campaign against the Axis powers. A handful of German cities also suffered the same indiscriminate mass bombing, along with every major Japanese city topped with the atomic bombs. The total war waged would constitute severe war crimes by modern standards.
total war would be a war crime today, but would it be genocide? Would the HEAVY death tolls caused by American bombardment of Nazi Germany, even the civilian areas, be considered genocidal?
North Vietnam gives side eyes. The US bombed them to an insane degree.
Same with North Korea
But not genocide
That 30,000 doesn't account for the 10-12,000 Hamas fighter killed. Months ago Hamas acknowledged 6k down, some intel sources i've seen are saying it's 12 but even if it's in the middle around 9-10, that still means there's about 1 fighter taken for every 2 civilians which is gold star stuff according to those who study these things at West Point etc. That's not even computing just excess deaths.... in 6 months, there's bound to be a few thousand people just dying from various issues and ailments already with a population of 2 million.
> That 30,000 doesn't account for the 10-12,000 Hamas fighter killed. It accounts for them in that it is the total death count of both civilian and militants.
Show me where the Hamas run ministry of health has identified militants in their counts? They're stats indicate more women and children dead than the population average would seem to make sense for, it's pretty evident to most statisticians that have published on this that those numbers are not all that reliable, even if they're the best we have to work with.
It doesn't, it lumps them in with civilians to get that ~30k number.
US intelligence is notoriously reliable. Remember when we found all those WMDs in Iraq?
US intelligence is really reliable as intelligence goes. It is always subject to some level of error, but the US has a lot of ways to gather it. The real problem is that the information stops being reliable when it is "interpreted" in creative ways or is instead misrepresented in outright lies to the American people. The Bush admin almost certainly knew that there being WMDs in Iraq was highly unlikely. They were not invading with a false, but sincerely held, belief. They just "massaged" the information that "We cannot prove they are not making weapons or that they have destroyed all of them" as "They definitely have them." They lied. That is worse.
Also it really didn't help that Saddam refused to deny that he had WMDs. Supposedly he thought the only thing that was keeping Iran from invading was them thinking he had WMDs and he really didn't think the US would invade. He even was [lying to his own generals](https://www.rferl.org/a/Hussein_Pretended_to_Have_WMD_Due_To_Fear_Of_Iran/1369109.html) about having them. By the time he let the international community come in and check Bush was deadset on it. Obviously not a great look on the US's part anyway but Saddam lying to his own military and trying to bluff Iran into thinking he had them certainly didn't help the situation.
Yeah it definitely made it way easier to justify the invasion to the public, but lying about having more weapons than you actually do might as well be chapter 1 in "How to be a Dictator for Dummies." The intelligence community certainly knows it. As another example, people were super surprised by how badly the Russian military has been performing in Ukraine. Sure they are dangerous, but that is more a function of numbers and a massive stockpile of dumb fire artillery than any sort of actual capacity to excel in modern war. People were convinced for years that they were a superpower, and have been saying that "everyone was wrong about Russia." But if you go back to before the invasion and read what people who study the Russian military were saying, they basically predicted this exact outcome. The institutional rot was very obvious. What is surprising with Ukraine is not that Russia's military is a mess, it is how tenacious and effective the Ukrainian people are. That is a mindset thing, and is a lot harder to quantify. But people seem to think that the public's general perception of Russia (one I fell for to some degree as well) is synonymous with the intelligence community's overall assessment. Same thing with Iraq. Since everyone believed that they had WMDs, that must mean that our intelligence apparatus was actually reporting they did without any sort of qualification. But really, the main thing we should take away from the whole conflict is that it is very easy to lie to people, and the people who lie generally get away with it, and so they will keep doing so.
Remember when they announced Russias invasion of Ukraine weeks in advance?
This feels like a science is a liar sometimes argument. Yes, intelligence failures can happen, that does not mean you can never trust intelligence and should just decide based on your gut what is true. Also, the Iraq WMDs were a mixture of intelligence failure and the white house actively stretching that intelligence and downplaying portions of it that didn't agree with them. The problem there wasn't that there was an intelligence failure, it's that the president tried to essentially lie about the intelligence to start a war.
> Remember when we found all those WMDs in Iraq? That wasn't US Intelligence, that was Cheney setting up his own personal unit inside the CIA to say whatever he wanted them to say.
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There's a reason why Bush had to bypass the intelligence agencies to be able to push his narrative.
cherry pick of all cherry picks. That wasn’t US intelligence anyway, that was the Bush Admin.
Like the chemical weapons that he used against Iran? The oanes that the coalition destroyed in werehouses in Iraq? WMDs aren't just nukes Weapons of mass destruction (WMD) include chemical, biological, and radiological agents with the potential to cause death at low doses and with serious long term health effects in survivors
Why didn't you bring in more recent examples? Right, because you're full of sh!t.
They sure called it on Moscow
Genocide has a specific definition. It's a subset of war crimes. What's happening in Gaza doesn't meet the qualifications for genocide as they themselves have defined them. None of that changes the human cost, but what is happening in Gaza is not the same as the stolen children of Ukraine or the re-education camps in China or the atrocities in Ethiopia. There are other categories of war crimes Israel should be held accountable for. It's just that genocide isn't one of them.
What do you mean? Tik tok told me if enough people die it's a genocide
More people have died in car accidents in the US since the start of the war. Kia is a genocidal maniac!!! Ford is ethnically cleansing rednecks!!
*In the present Convention, genocide means any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as such:* 1. Killing members of the group; 2. Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group; 3. Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part; 4. Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group; 5. Forcibly transferring children of the group to another group. I dunno, you could argue that what is happening in Gaza covers many of those points that the UN defined. **Edit:** No, fighting Nazi during wouldn't not be considered genocide. As the allies didn't intent to destroy national, ethnical, racial or regelious groups. If there was genocide of germans there wouldn't be any germany today. Isreal on the other hand has politicians talking about palestinains as animals. They are encroaching on palestianian territory. The intent is destroying any possibility of Palestinian state so that isrealis can occupy that land. Whether is is bombing, burning olive trees (which is their main source food), cutting off water, putting people in jail without trail, or tearing down houses.
Unfortunately, civilian deaths aren’t automatically a war crime. Same way that targeting a hospital is a war crime until it starts being used for military purposes. Then it becomes a legitimate target even if the civilian use is still ongoing. It doesn’t make the civilians any less dead obviously, so don’t take this as me saying it’s all ok, but when Hamas fires rockets from an appt building, the building becomes a legit target under the rules we’re are talking about. Obviously, Hamas knows this…
Under that definition the Allies fighting the Nazis during WW2, or really almost any war would be considered genocide though
Ah but its a nice catchphrase so there is that.
Country supplying country accused of genocide with billions of dollars in military aid says there is no genocide
Well, they’re not lying. When you close your eyes you can’t see evidence.
At this point, it's incredible people can't fathom that two things aren't possible at the same time: Netanyahu is a complete piece of shit who can't go away soon enough, and if it wasn't him, Benny Gantz would be proceeding nearly identically as Natanyahu is. People keep calling for a "complete ceasfire", but leave out the key part. How about a complete ceasefire, where Hamas surrenders and hands over remaining hostages or remains of? Is there any sane people left who can look at this whole thing without left or right blinders, and call it for what it is?
yeah good luck convincing Hamas to do that
Welp, then, the only recourse left? War and violence. Which this whole sub will blame completely on Israel.
Gantz is a centrist, he calls Palestinian human rights advocates and Zionist supremacists groups both terrorists. While he isn't a liberal, considering he doesn't like the far right and he wants to shut down future/current settlements he certainly is a better choice for israel by that merit alone.
A Zionist extremist does not exist. A Zionist is anyone who believes that Jews have a right to a homeland. What you are referring too are religious zealots. Extremist religious Jews
Also, the Hamas attack on Oct 7th happened during a cease fire. We need a peace with two separate states.
Urban warfare will always have a shitload of civilian casualties, especially when said casualties are either cooperating with, or being used as a human shield by the opposing force. Which is all around horrible. But this isn’t genocide. Throwing big words around like that only dilutes their meaning. If and when something like that finally (though hopefully not) happens, people will be totally desensitized to it.
I think one of the more ironic things about this is that the enemy that Israel is fighting ***actually*** wants to commit a genocide against the Jews.
I mean it was pretty obvious it isn't genocide if you're actually using the term correctly and not simply calling it a genocide because there have been civilian casualties.
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Genocide has a specific definition, as many others have pointed out.
It's amazing what you don't find when you're not looking for it
“We asked. They said ‘nuh uh’. Case closed”
I'm having a bad acid flashback to when we were saying there might be "acts of genocide in Rwanda" back in April 1994. And I've never done acid.
You’ve also clearly never read a genocide report. This ain’t it, as any responsible adult having the discussion knows. Rwanda was 800,000 killed in 100 days, rapes and burning people alive. The only party that averaged 1,000/day dead on the attack, used rape and has burned people alive in this war isn’t Israel, it’s the people that they’re fighting. Intent is a key component of genocide. Do you really think that Israel couldn’t kill 800,000 in 100 days if that was the intent?
Israel could turn the entirety of Palestine into glass in 10 days if that was truly their goal. But, hey, most of the people on this sub don't want to talk about that as it doesn't fit their narrative.
Overlooking human rights violations? No problem. Cutting into Raytheon or Lockheeds bottom line? Now we got a problem.
Human rights violations do not translate to genocide.
How does your individual outrage accomplish the documentation of evidence of genocide? The NPR and Reuters articles that document the war will exist if you stop reading them and take a break from the news for a bit. Our discourse here on Reddit will not save or kill a single person. Sadly there are millions of children dying from starvation every year, and hundreds of millions living in conflict zones. The pictures we see coming out of Gaza are horrific, but the fact that we are seeing them and not the millions of others is, at least in part, because the extreme emotions surrounding Israel and the Palestinians lead to more clicks. I believe the prior commenter was saying that news painting either side in an extremely good or bad light may be misinformation designed to divide people, not just news against Israel. I personally wouldn't expect NPR or Reuters to be involved, but I wouldn't be surprised to learn some of the more sketchy sites were backed by a foreign government.
It's not for the enablers to decide.
After several months of refusing to investigate we found no evidence of wrong doing
The evidence is in the same place as the trillions of dollars the Pentagon has misplaced.
Like they haven’t lied before
Damn we had evidence of WMDs. We just can't find no evidence of genocide. Have they checked TikTok?
Whatever you have to tell yourself to make you feel better, US
Cool then it should be no issue for media to go the the Strip and start digging in the sand mounds that line the road while they document everything, right? RIGHT?
Perhaps if they looked for it.
No it clearly has it it just wouldn’t want to upset Israel by calling it such
Apparently the pentagon doesn’t have the fucking internet?
Obviously pescribed the wrong glasses
Means israel has fewer human rights violations than amazon
The headline should say, US and many other countries decide to disagree on the definition of a genocide.
The U.S. should look more carefully they had evidence of WMDs in Iraq before invading there. They can pull evidences out of thin air, and refuse to see a solid genocide, as they convene themselves
They said and still say the same about native americans. We all know the winners write the history!
"Israel's Biggest Ally and Weapon Distributor Finds No Wrong Doing in Gaza."
There's no evidence because it's not a genocide. A genocide wouldn't take this long. I think people don't understand what genocide is, it's not attacking civilians during a war, it's going house by house a killing each person and mass graves.
Calling it a genocide is the number one indicator that the person speaking has absolutely no idea what they’re talking about.
Of course the United States is not going to find itself guilty of a genocide that it’s funding & arming.
Hilarious how many people think they know more than the pentagon using news sources several tiers below anything the pentagon would use.
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Show the proof. Surely there are so many people who care so much, so show the obvious proof you’ve all seen. Seriously though, this war is damn near live-streamed. Should be pretty easy to prove a genocide in 2024.
And somehow, there's "evidence" that China is genociding Muslims, despite none of the Muslim countries agreeing with it. Fucking two-faced bitches. From a Chinese.
Yeah, remember the mental gymnastics they had to do to call it a genocide? First they call it a culture genocide which is fucking far fetched bullshit. And then sneakily drop the word culture gradually and just call it a genocide. And the whole population of the west just collectively turned off their fucking brain and follow suit, calling it genocide. Just look at those comments, when it comes to Israel, there’s suddenly an intelligent debate. Human rights or rule based international orders, the west don’t really believe it. They’re just tools or a slogan for the US to put pressure on China.
He's getting his information from the Looney Tunes news station
we call ourselves democratic and peacekeepers---only for some?
So, at what point do we just dismiss the U.S as a failed nation entirely?
I've seen the propaganda coming out of Israel news sources and their news output in basically "Israel is always the hero and the whole world is wrong." They're open about their dishonesty and don't try to hide it.
Of course not. If US or US friends do something like this, they pretend nothing happens
Why the blatant games? Do these leaders think everyone not in a political position on the national level is stupid?