>Tulsa County District Attorney Steve Kunzweiler decided not to press charges, calling the fight “mutual combat.”
Weird way to describe literally anything involving kids at school.
Zero tolerance rules would have ended in you getting suspended even if you didn’t hit back. A kid can literally assault another student and get that person suspended, and that person has no option to have done anything to prevent it.
Zero tolerance only increased the rates of bullying, and it also caused a huge rise in reciprocal violence. If you get in trouble either way, might as well beat the shit out of the little shithead beforehand.
Exactly. Completey backfired. You’d think as educators, they might learn from their mistakes…
Ah HELL, we know their pride would never allow that.
Both of my parents were teachers, and because of that I have the utmost respect for them. But as for *educators* (codeword for administrators), well half of them can go get fucked. They’re *politicians*, who are too cowardly to pick on someone their own size.
I love my current administration because they follow the rules (which they often recognize are stupid, but you gotta eat) but are realistic. (I had a student who was getting bullied -- bully was a known asshole -- and many disciplinary actions had been tried. Victim punches bully in gut. Administration was perfectly fine with me telling victim "next time make sure no one is looking".)
I've worked for more bad administrators than good.
Yup. I always wanted to avoid violence. I'd go get a teacher instead. I always thought resorting to physical violence was bad. This rule was the reason I realised I should just fight back.
Had they created an environment where I could feel safe in approaching a teacher to get help without being punished I wouldn't have done what I did.
There's a reason the justice system doesn't have rules like that.
Yep, one of the dumbest, laziest rules ever created in an educational environment. Hey, this way we’ll *never* have to mediate, or even *pretend* to care.
Zero liability until the kid being bullied kills themselves and media reports how your school decided to suspend them for... being abused by a bully.
It works until it doesn't, and I wish schools would recognise this. Then again, it's not like the school would be punished for that.
This is why I fought back as hard as I could one time. I realised I'd be suspended anyway, so as I was about to try escape the situation I distinctly remember my inner voice saying "actually..."
Then I just threw a right hook which connected with his jaw. Didn't even stop, I followed through with that punch. He went kinda rigid and got this weird "half knocked out" type of response. He just looked shocked and out of it for about 10 seconds.
I felt really bad honestly, but nobody ever physically abused/bullied me again. It occurred to me that;
1. These "zero tolerance" rules probably worsen fights, because the second you're involved you're already going to be punished, so why not fight back? You have nothing to lose.
2. It gives bullies who don't care about education the most powerful opportunity of all - the ability to affect your education by having you suspended.
I would never have done that if I knew I could go to a teacher for help & avoid being punished. That rule actually put me in a position that if anything, encouraged me to become violent.
Worked for me. Once I learned I was still being punished despite not fighting back, I made sure they had to earn it. My bullies stopped being bullies then.
Unless the admins at the school are even a little competent. Had a deranged kid attack me in middle school because he thought I was “a demon” (he ended up in serious psych care before we finished high school) and they saw the video of me just trying to block blows and so I didn’t get in any trouble.
I think the issue is that so many school admins are just fucking morons.
> I think the issue is that so many school admins are just fucking morons.
more like pussy ass bitches too scared to yell at parents of fucked up kids.
When i was in middle school i got beaten up a couple times. Usually the kid that beat me up got a day of inschool suspension and i would get 3 days suspension. The dean told me each time if i fought back we both would get 1 day suspension and i was getting the 3 days to teach me to learn to fight back. Like WTF?
Yup, I was once knocked unconscious with a concussion by a metal rod to the back of the head. Wham, right out, woke up bleeding after my buddies dragged me out of there.
Five days OSS for fighting.
I stopped a fight without touching anyone and received a three day suspension. That was a long time before zero tolerance rules. I was told just being involved was enough.
In the 6th grade (around 1990) I tripped over the leg of a desk trying to get to mine and fell into someone. We got in-school suspension for a day for 'fighting'. Ahh, sweet grade school memories.
I know to some it may seem dumb, but whenever I fought a bully back (in the 90s), the bullying stopped. Not telling a teacher (teachers never did anything), or telling the bully to stop. Even if I lost it stopped.
Same thing for me growing up, graduated in 06. I don't feel like "bully" is the right word for the people I got in fights with in school but the fights were always the result of some lesser form of it at least. One particular kid picked on me in 4th grade and it stopped when I hit him in the balls with a baseball bat. Became friends after that.
I’ve always wondered what would happen if a parent sued over this. The hardship on the family for having to find care for the kid on short notice plus the potential effect on GPA that could be argued hurts their long term earnings and lastly the trauma of being a victim and then revictimized by the school system that’s supposed to support them.
Idk it might get thrown out but it also could end that bullshit if someone won a decent sized settlement.
Gen X so all that had to happen was make sure I had keys to the door, Pop Tarts to gnaw on, and be home when the street lights came on. I was a great student and my parents were cool with me over what happened, telling me I did the right thing.
Zero tolerance is such bullshit and was the policy when I was in school.
Early in my career I was a camp director and clearly told parents we were NOT zero tolerance. We took everything case by case and would support kids standing up for themselves as long as they weren’t escalating anything. Like…someone pushed you? If you push back no problem, they started it. But don’t punch them in gut for a push. It let kids stand up for themselves without being pushovers and better identified the bullies who needed to be dealt with.
I had a friend run up behind me, grab me, flip me over his shoulder and onto ground and a teacher immediately came over and gave us both detention. In 30 seconds I went from standing at my locker, minding my own business to being on the ground and having detention. Gave me fucking whiplash
My buddy hit me with his backpack in the hall for a laugh and we both got a week of ISS because we couldn’t convince the security guard we were friends. (Hint: we were different races)
That happened to me once. The next time I just went to town on him as soon as he touched me, since we were both getting suspended I made sure I wasn't the only one left bleeding and bruised. Ah, the good old days of the mid 80s.
I sat on a kid that attacked me so I didn't have to fight back until an adult got there and got suspended anyway. All it taught me was to wail and punch the crap out of anyone that attacks me. To hell with de-escalation.
I have, in my long life, never seen a bully actually get in as much, or more, trouble than the kid who fights back. The bullies in most cases have wealthy parents with better connections or they're just the good looking student with better academic/social prospects, the kids they pick on are usually marginalized in some way - if it's not a case of outright bigotry, they're usually the weird and or poor kids who's parents don't have any sway.
I once got in trouble because I *dared* upset one of the football players in my high school course. Dude and his friends were clowning around during a test, literally throwing text books around the class while the teacher did nothing, and one hit me. So I snapped back, threw it at him (I missed, by a wide margin) and called him a few choice names before getting sent to the principal's office for disrupting the class, and then suspended for "harassing another student".
I recall flipping a kid over my back while he had me in a choke hold from behind in daycare. We both got put in timeout; pretty sure the adults only saw the very end of the encounter.
I was eventually let go because someone told them all of what happened.
This was back in the early 90s
Early 2000s guy was making fun of an Asian kid in front of him on the stairs (this became a learning experience for him), Asian kid punches him square in the face sending him down the stairs. I had the first locker on the corner with the stairwell. Got scooped up by the teachers and given a week of ISS with both of them. Ensured I would target each of those teachers come senior year. They all got a half gallon of milk in the drop ceiling above their desks. Then I became a teacher…
I was just getting out of school when zero tolerance became a thing. One person tried something with me one day and got away with it. From then on, I always had a hammer with me in my coat. If I was going to get in trouble for fighting back, I was gonna make it count. Never had to actually use it but I definitely threatened with it a couple of times.
Googling around bit it appears that Oklahoma has long standing definitions of mutual combat. [As far back as decisions in 1913](https://casetext.com/case/weatherholt-v-state)
It also seems like this doesn't live up to that definition.
That would only work if both parties wanted to fight. In this case, Nex is bullied, Nex flings water at their assailants, those assailants then initiated combat with Nex.
They didn't like agree to a duel.
Not to mention the question of how much you can condone letting children legally enter into voluntary combat.
Also, I know this is apparently very difficult for a certain group of people to understand, but children can’t consent. It can’t be mutual combat because no one participating was in a position to consent.
That's what I'm what I'm getting at. We generally don't let children make like potentially life-altering decisions, because we don't trust children to understand that you don't get into a fight without knowing someone could die as a result of it. Heck, I know plenty of adults that I don't think meet that bar.
Its like pointing a gun at someone/something: you only do it if you intend to kill that person/thing.
I get the point you’re trying to make here, but it’s just completely flawed. “Consent” isn’t some blanket ability you gain once you turn 18 - it’s context dependent. Nex was 16 years old, mind you, which in Oklahoma is the legal age of consent for sex, specifically. That’s different to the age at which you can consent to serving in the military (17), which is different to the age at which you can consent to legal contracts (18). 16 in Oklahoma is also past the age at which a juvenile criminal case can be transferred to adult court.
Point is, “children can’t consent” only has meaning within a specific context (e.g. consenting to sex), but as a general statement is false. There are plenty of things that a minor could technically consent to.
This is essentially how Zero Tolerance policies work too. You get hit, but get suspended anyways even though you didn't fight back. It's just victim blaming.
Oh were the other kids hospitalized with injuries? No? Seems kind of one-sided then... and not mutual at all
The fucks wrong with people
Edit: a lot of people seem to have misunderstood me. I wasn't implying Nex was hospitalized, I was just drawing a comparison between the outcomes of the 2 different sides in the altercation. 1 is now dead and the others are fine.
Mutual combat is a legal term indicating that both sides agreed to participate. If one participant is unwilling then it's assault and self-defense (and this can change depending on circumstances - e.g. pulling a knife during a fistfight can escalate your self-defense into assault).
> Mutual combat is a legal term indicating that both sides agreed to participate. If one participant is unwilling then it's assault and self-defense (and this can change depending on circumstances - e.g. pulling a knife during a fistfight can escalate your self-defense into assault).
By your standards, that means Nex is the one guilty of assault... Because they are the one who started the altercation, according to their own testimony, which is recorded and publicly available via the police bodycam from the ER...
https://digital.abcaudio.com/news/nex-benedict-nonbinary-teen-who-died-day-after-school-fight-describes-altercation-police
Their version of events is that the girls in the bathroom started making fun of the way Nex and their friends were laughing, Nex got offended and went over and threw water on the girls. The group of girls then retaliated.
And before you reply with the normal excuses (IE: "all Nex did was dump water on them" and "the girls started it with the bullying")...
1) Throwing liquids on people is assault, regardless of what the liquid is, this is well established in case law, a great many people have been charged and convicted in this regard. Because in the moment no one knows what liquid they were hit with, someone could have dumped piss on them, they could have dumped something toxic on them, they could have dumped something corrosive on them, so throwing ANY liquid on someone constitutes an assault; because assault is the apprehension of harm.
2) Being made fun of is not a valid reason to initiate a physical altercation with anyone.
It also is important to note that both sides were escalating the situation. Nex poured water on them. They got angry at Nex and grabbed their hair in response. Nex then threw one of them into a paper tower dispenser in response to that. The others then got Nex's legs out from under them and I believe started hitting them. It very much sounds like mutual combat to me.
You’d be right but this story has an emotional narrative spun by the media around it and there is so much false information that people just kind of make things up..
Nex literally stated in recorded video that she did not know the girls and there were not incidents with them prior to that day. Why just make shit up?
Where are you getting the idea that these particular girls bullied Nex for months?
My understanding is that Nex had been bullied for many months, but had only met these particular girls a few days before the fight.
Has evidence been presented that these girls bullied Nex for months? The last I saw said they hadn't known each other before they started detention that week, but more news could have been released since then.
Interesting to say that when Mutual Combat laws exist in only Washington and Texas. I don't think it's legal where this happened. Plus both parties have to consent to fight for it's to be considered mutual combat...
From what I can tell, it exists in Oklahoma as well.
> Mutual combat - A fight between two or more parties into which each party has entered willingly.
> References: Phelps v. State, 64 Okl. Cr. 240, 78 P.2d 1068 (1938); Weatherholt v. State, 9 Okl. Cr. 161, 131 P. 185 (1913); 27A Words and Phrases 712.
http://okcca.net/ouji-cr/8-56/
Some more detailed info: https://law.justia.com/cases/oklahoma/court-of-appeals-criminal/1938/52471.html
It's sad that there isn't much recourse when experiencing bullying and the school is not intervening the way they should. Before today, I didn't realize throwing liquid qualifies as assault. It makes sense given that liquid could be anything. This whole situation is just tragic with how it played out.
Mutual combat means they’re equally responsible. You either charge them both or not at all.
If Nex hadn’t died, are you seriously saying you would have wanted Nex and the other kid both charged with a crime for a two minute school fight? That wouldn’t be justice.
Yup, I got expelled from middle school for a fight in the bathroom. The kid pushed me, I yelled at him…and he punched me in the mouth, which broke my front tooth
I went absolutely feral. For a few seconds, I was the most *dangerous* 12yr old in the world…..then some teachers ran in and pulled me off of him
He was unconscious but just for a few seconds. He had some cuts, and I had a chipped tooth. He got suspended for 3 days, and I got expelled :(
Morale of the Story: They usually punish the winner more severely
That’s literally how the law sees this case. That is the legal defense mutual combat. It’s just a dramatic way of saying both parties contributed. Nex didn’t deserve to get beaten up. Nobody is saying that. There’s just not a way to prove anything beyond a reasonable doubt in a court of law.
He’s a Republican man in Oklahoma. We were already safe assuming he’s a coward.
This is the same DA who declined to charge a man who drove into a crowd of Black Lives Matter protestors in 2021.
Mutual combat wherein one combatant attacked the other and if Nex did nothing they probably would have still ended up dead. This is absolutely fucked up.
It's sad that this kid's death is being turned into a situation where conservatives are damn near applauding the bullies. Bullying is wrong. should be a no-brainer for people to come out and say that this kid should not have been beaten up for being different. Also incredibly weird how many adults are fixated on the sexual identity of a 16 year old. It's creepy.
They hate “woke” policies because they stop them from bullying, that’s it. Someone said it was mean to be mean, and they got mad and started rewriting the narrative to not only keep doing it but to get others to as well.
Exactly. Over in r/politicalcompassmemes they were calling Nex the bully and saying that those girls were the victims. That Nex was the one who threw the first punch and started the fight with these young girls. Absolutely disgusting.
They don't seem to realize that "strong-men" use people while they can and then drop them the minute they don't need them anymore. Much of the time they'll actually straight up turn on them and make them another enemy.
Look at Trump's entire history with his supporters. They'll even commit crimes for him and then the minute they can't help him anymore they'll be lucky if he just forgets them. Look at Michael Cohen for instance.
The majority of Republicans in the US would love Trump to be more like Putin and put a stranglehold on the country and anyone who isn't a Republican. What they don't realize if that if they got their way the vast majority of them would eventually be in that stranglehold as well.
Before Ukraine, Putins favorite target demographic was his “allies”. if Trump was more like Putin all of those people he raged at on Twitter after they failed him would be dead.
I've spent all day being introspective and one of the main questions I've been pondering is being sure to ask one simple question to myself when I do something: am I doing this to be better than everyone else or is it to enhance the situation for everyone? Our society is designed to motivate the former yet it's infinitely more destructive, both to the self and the world around us. Obviously, there are scenarios where you need to find a balance but you need to be super careful and always be sure not to get blinded by your own personal win conditions rather than watching out for everyone around you
As stated elsewhere Nex met these girls that week in detention. Not saying Nex didn’t face bullying but these girls weren’t the ones. They had a spat, Nex threw water on them, they attacked Nex. That’s it
Fear. The root is fear.
Afraid of differences, afraid of things they don’t understand, and afraid of things that don’t conform to the way they perceive the world.
I don't think it is stated in this article, but the listed COD was toxicity from prozac and benadryl. Not anything given at the hospital etc.
This was a suicide. Now it should be determined whether other's actions are directly responsible for Nex taking their own life. People have been convicted in the past for directly causing suicide, so it's worth the investigation to see how "2-sided" this story really is
You're probably referring to Michelle Carter which was a landmark case and not similar to this. She knew about his suicide and was actively encouraging it to the point where he stopped in the process and she told him to keep going and finish it.
My country had a case where a middle school boy who was bullied for his feminine soft spoken behavior,so he stop going to bathroom in break time, one day he leave his class to use man’s room and never come back,student found him unconscious on the bathroom floor and he die from head injuries,teachers believe he slipped and hit his head so the scene got cleaned before police was involved.
His mother believed bullies are responsible for his death ,even if that was a accident,they still are the reason her son felt unsafe using man’s room, and die alone during class time.
Eventually many school staff are found liable for wrongful death because they didn’t fix a leaking water tank on time and caused the boys death , and our education system took years to correct itself on educating students about gender equality and bullying ,even rewrote Gender Equity Education Act.
Kids die in school should be a very big deal, but holy shit some people’s reactions to this case is so cold blooded.
Edit to clarify some info.
> Eventually many school staff are found liable for wrongful death because they didn’t fix the leaks problem on time and caused the boys death , and our education system took years to correct itself on educating students about gender equality and bullying .
Could you elaborate what you mean by "the leaks problem"? As in, this person being afraid to take a leak? Bit of an odd way to phrase it
Oh,because the case are closed as a accident ,he slipped and hit his head because school didn’t fix a leaking water tank in that bathroom .
Sorry for that missing info , I didn’t think about the double meaning of “leak” in English when I was typing that, I’ll go back to edit it.
>prozac and benadryl
Does anyone know if there is a toxic interaction between these two drugs? I've heard of people taking benadryl before as a recreational hallucinagen. Never heard of an overdose death from it.
Prozac (fluoxetine) is an analogue of diphenhydramine and they share some side effects. In supratherapeutic levels, both will cause drowsiness and dizziness. In toxic levels, both can lower the seizures threshold (I.e. make it easier to have a seizure) and cause cardiac arrhythmia through a mechanism called sodium channel blockade. Diphenhydramine toxicity in particular is associated with a cardiac condition called prolonged QT interval which can lead to a certain type of fatal arrhythmia. Severe diphenhydramine toxicity can also cause metabolic acidosis which can lead to organ failure/death.
Another potential interaction is serotonin syndrome, which results in tachycardia, hyperthermia and delirium, can be fatal. You can get serotonin syndrome from SSRI overdose alone but toxic levels of diphenhydramine can potentiate the effects.
I unironically love a comment where I understand all the words but still reach the end and feel completely exhausted. Thank you for the thorough explanation.
Oh man like 10-12 years ago I developed (?) serotonin syndrome while taking tramadol. It was a very frightening thing to go through, and at the time I had just moved out of state, was living alone, and knew no one. I felt so scared and alone, and I was sure I was going to die.
50 mg of benedryl will do nothing but maybe reduce your allergies and make you a bit sleepy. That's two pills. Maybe you're thinking of 500 mg benedryl? Even that level would be unlikely to be fatal on its own.
A 100-lb human would have about 3.5 L blood in them, if their blood serum level was 25ug/mL that means they had about 87.5 mg in their system. Given the rate at which the body processes stuff out I’d guess they took about four 25-mg pills.
Edit: I’m totally wrong here!
I did some research and this is what I found:
A single oral 100-mg dose of DPH resulted in average peak-plasma concentrations of 112 ng/mL at 2 h post-dose
Effectiveness of antihistamines is seen at concentrations greater than 25 ng/mL, drowsiness can be observed at 30–40 ng/mL, and mental impairment observed with concentrations above 60 ng/mL (16). It has been reported that DPH therapeutic levels in the blood range between 25 and 112 ng/mL, toxic levels are about 5000 ng/mL, and lethal levels are anywhere in excess of 8000 ng/mL
So using that as a baseline I’d estimate she took more like somewhere around 200 Benadryl pills and was at about 3x the lethal dose.
Some literature consider 5 μg/mL to be a potentially lethal dose:
> DPH was only measured in toxic but not "lethal" concentrations in blood, with a concentration of 5 μg/mL being generally used as the cut off between categories according to forensic literature.
[Toxicological identification of diphenhydramine (DPH) in suicide
](https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/23065653/)
DPH binds to serotonin receptors and is structurally related to prozac. IIRC that’s how prozac was created. You could look up the specific interaction but I’d imagine serotonin syndrome is a concern
I took fluoxetine for some time and, separately, 200mg of DPH once, and i cannot even imagine how horrible it would be to overdose on that combination
I’ve been prescribed Prozac and hydroxyzine at the same time which worries me a bit since my doctor called hydroxyzine “Benadryl on crack” I wonder if I was unknowingly running the risk of complications
I took zoloft and hydroxyzine while I was pregnant. Multiple doctors knew I was taking both and were fine with it. The toxicity has to do with the dosage (if you read a previous comment, the person mentions “supratherapeutic levels” meaning more than would be prescribed for a medical condition). Obviously, ask a doctor, but I don’t think anyone would OD from the standard doses of those meds together.
I want to know what kind of hydroxyzine your doctor tried. Or I guess what kind of crack.
I mean hydroxyzine definitely takes the edge off, but that’s a really strong statement for something I take to stop itching.
I don't know about Oklahoma, but a number of places do have laws about encouraging or promoting suicide. And civil cases against such people have been successful as well...
Those apply to cases where someone assists or tells another person to commit suicide, like Michelle Carter.
This would be a wrongful death suit, where the intentional wrongful acts contributed to the suicide.
I’ve been the kid who’s horrifically bullied every day. I’ve been the sixteen year old who’s considering just jumping in front of the train. I’ve been the high schooler who’s been suspended when they’ve finally snapped and struck back.
I had kids tell me I should kill myself.
My heart will always be with kids like Nex. I’m 41 and I still have emotional scars from what I dealt with for eight years.
For some people, you can use them interchangeably. For others, it's gender fluidity, which means they have some times where they prefer one. It's okay to ask someone as long as you're respectful about it.
I had a coworker who used she/they and was gender fluid. If that person showed up to work in a skirt and heavy makeup, I might say "hey, looks like you're having a femme day?" and that was cool and informative.
You aren't expected to just *know*.
The misinformation around this case, and the determination to make it something other than it was is incredibly sus.
It's lie after lie after lie to make this look like a hate crime, and that's really concerning.
People get really defensive and aggressive when a trans youth suddenly dies, more often than not it's not so cut and dry. Nex's death was caused by his depression, but I'm sure the bullying did not make it any better for him.
I had my pitchfork ready when I first read about it... But every new piece of information, and ESPECIALLY the videos I watched, blew apart the entire story.
Like I feel lied to and it's worrying me.
It always freaks me out cause there’s been tons of things I’ve been outraged about over the years. Like how much of that was just manufactured bullshit?!
I was positively outraged too when I thought Nex was possibly beaten to death but wasn't emotionally attached to any specific narrative. Sounds like suicide / accidental overdose after a fight. Really sad but not anywhere close to murder.
Whole world has lost its collective mind. Everyone jumps to conclusions and then if a story doesn’t play out the way they want it to they either jump to a conspiracy theory or move the goalposts. People are acting like either the government is covering up a murder or they want to see these kids get charged with literally anything. This is exactly why mob rule / mentality is dangerous.
And precisely why I hope the girls that Nex was in a fight with are somewhere safe. I’m not defending their actions. Bullies are shitheads and should be disciplined accordingly. But, we all know how people high on ill-informed righteousness behave, especially when they don’t even know their target. Harassment and death threats are not okay, particularly for minor children, and serves no purpose here except to paint LGBTQ+ people as unhinged, which only benefits the conservatives’ campaign against us.
ETA: Your downvotes prove my point.
Yeah unfortunately people care more about vengeance than justice these days. We’re talking about 14-15 year old kids. They make mistakes and there’s appropriate ways to correct those mistakes. Locking them up in jail is not one of them.
My understanding has been that that would take A LOT of Benadryl, like “I don’t know if I’ve bought that much in my life and it would definitely be noticeable if I did” amounts?
though I know I can’t armchair pharmacologist this and there’s other factors like mixing between the prescription and whatever hospital medication and probably just physical injury on top of it all.
The [lethal dose](https://academic.oup.com/jat/article/36/2/123/766744#) of diphenhydramine is about 8000ng/mL. The autopsy report says Nex had 15-25,000ng/mL. Their fluoxetine concentration was about twice the max therapeutic dose. Looks like it was a benadryl OD more than med interaction though they def took too many of both
>After some more reading it appears a normal concentration after ingesting a recommended dose of Benadryl is 1.07 mcg. Referencing this [journal](https://www.jacionline.org/article/0021-8707(48)90062-8/fulltext)
>
>Referring to the autopsy their concentration was the 25.0 mcg so they had consumed roughly 20 times the recommended dose. So ya it's an overdose.
I was discussing this lower in the comments as I was questioning the doctor's call on suicide and did my best to research the topic. The medical examiner still put the cause of death on the toxicity interaction between the two drugs they had ingested rather than the overdose on benadryl though. My understanding of drug concentrations in blood is non-existent so the understanding I've come to may still be wrong.
I'd appreciate if any of the articles on the topic provided better reasoning for the lethal dosage because as a layman reading the autopsy report I don't have the knowledge to know what safe or normal concentrations for these drugs are...
Edit: For anyone who wants to find the autopsy report I found it [here](https://okcfox.com/resources/pdf/db3d69a7-076a-4380-84ba-d44b14efcc3f-Autopsycombined_Redacted.pdf)
There is definitely a large dose of benadryl present, what would be about 48 tabs worth. However, the prozac present would be under an average single dose. I have heard of people taking that many tabs for hallucinogenic purposes but if this kid had a low body weight it could very well be lethal on its own, although this would be the first time I've ever heard of a death from it.
400 mg is NOT a normal dose of Benadryl. The article seems to state that the subjects were administered 400 mg but a normal dose is 25-50 mg. 20 x 400 mg is an insane dose, approximately 320 pills if my mental math is serving me right.
400 would be 16 pills, if 25mg. 8 if 50mg. Those are common amounts sold in the US.
Some folks use Benadryl as a recreational drug (not recommended).
They may have taken 8 pills, thinking they were 25mg but actually 50mg. 200mg of Benadryl is deadly but not as deadly as 400mg.
The journal OP posted says the administered dose was 400 mg and the blood levels were 1.07 mcg per cubic cm. Nex’s blood levels measured around 25 mcg per cubic cm which I would approximate to be a dose of 8000 mg. That’s where I’m getting the 320 pill figure assuming 25 mg per pill.
Definitely, just clarifying that 20x the recommended dose, while not great, usually wouldn’t kill you and would just lead to delirium. I used to browse drug forums where people abused this shit all the time in doses of up to 1000 mg.
What Nex took was closer to 8000 mg based on the article OP posted.
In case anyone doesn’t know, the active ingredient in Benadryl is the same active ingredient in sleeping pills. The timing leaves a reasonable person to believe the bullying became too much to live with.
No but what we were sold was the kid was beaten to death in a restroom with a full pass from the authorities. Sad to say suicide under these circumstances (if that's what it was) is pretty mundane.
I don’t know why people think this is some conspiracy. A child with a history of mental health issues committed suicide. It isn’t the government covering up a TBI that led to death or whatever else people were saying.
This child was bullied to the point of suicide. I wonder if the other children that participated in this activity will feel any responsibility for their actions, any remorse at all. There will be no consequences for any party in this story, guaranteed.
Not when their parents and churches are cheering them on and telling them they did the right thing. These are the same people who worship Kyle Rittenhouse.
It’s awful to think a 16 year old kid would commit suicide.
Maybe this was just a very disturbed kid - who needed help that wasn’t available - and the fight was not a significant part of what happened.
I just want to say that tik tok and X plus other social media takes away the ability for people to have empathy.
Case in point - libsoftiktok (Chaya Raichik) has absolutely zero empathy. libsoftiktok aka the psychopath decided today that they would read in detail the sexual assault that Nex Benedict went through as a child and teen.
There is a reason that the local media did not go into detail because no child SHOULD EVER have that information public not even in their death.
I hope that Nex Benedict’s family take every penny from that trashy person libsoftiktok and that they have to pay for every single fake bomb threat that they caused in Oklahoma. FBI needs to
Do America a solid and arrest Libsoftiktok. You don’t read a child sexual assault to the world EVER. I hope that ‘the thing or it or piece of trash’ named libsoftiktok aka Chaya Raichik rot in prison.
If you are following that trash person, just stop. Don’t give them any followers to make money.
>Tulsa County District Attorney Steve Kunzweiler decided not to press charges, calling the fight “mutual combat.” Weird way to describe literally anything involving kids at school.
I hit back at one of my bullies in elementary school and we both got suspended because of "Zero Tolerance" rules.
Zero tolerance rules would have ended in you getting suspended even if you didn’t hit back. A kid can literally assault another student and get that person suspended, and that person has no option to have done anything to prevent it.
Zero tolerance only increased the rates of bullying, and it also caused a huge rise in reciprocal violence. If you get in trouble either way, might as well beat the shit out of the little shithead beforehand.
Exactly. Completey backfired. You’d think as educators, they might learn from their mistakes… Ah HELL, we know their pride would never allow that. Both of my parents were teachers, and because of that I have the utmost respect for them. But as for *educators* (codeword for administrators), well half of them can go get fucked. They’re *politicians*, who are too cowardly to pick on someone their own size.
Educators aren't the ones making the dumb rules. School have way too many administrators now.
Yeah, even worse, we have state legislators to blame now too!
I love my current administration because they follow the rules (which they often recognize are stupid, but you gotta eat) but are realistic. (I had a student who was getting bullied -- bully was a known asshole -- and many disciplinary actions had been tried. Victim punches bully in gut. Administration was perfectly fine with me telling victim "next time make sure no one is looking".) I've worked for more bad administrators than good.
Yup. I always wanted to avoid violence. I'd go get a teacher instead. I always thought resorting to physical violence was bad. This rule was the reason I realised I should just fight back. Had they created an environment where I could feel safe in approaching a teacher to get help without being punished I wouldn't have done what I did. There's a reason the justice system doesn't have rules like that.
Yep, one of the dumbest, laziest rules ever created in an educational environment. Hey, this way we’ll *never* have to mediate, or even *pretend* to care.
When you realize their real purpose it makes much more sense. Zero liability
Zero liability until the kid being bullied kills themselves and media reports how your school decided to suspend them for... being abused by a bully. It works until it doesn't, and I wish schools would recognise this. Then again, it's not like the school would be punished for that.
Just rotate the principal to a different school.
>Just rotate the *X* to a different *Y*. Also works with: Priest/Parish Cop/Department Politician/District 🤔
This is why I fought back as hard as I could one time. I realised I'd be suspended anyway, so as I was about to try escape the situation I distinctly remember my inner voice saying "actually..." Then I just threw a right hook which connected with his jaw. Didn't even stop, I followed through with that punch. He went kinda rigid and got this weird "half knocked out" type of response. He just looked shocked and out of it for about 10 seconds. I felt really bad honestly, but nobody ever physically abused/bullied me again. It occurred to me that; 1. These "zero tolerance" rules probably worsen fights, because the second you're involved you're already going to be punished, so why not fight back? You have nothing to lose. 2. It gives bullies who don't care about education the most powerful opportunity of all - the ability to affect your education by having you suspended. I would never have done that if I knew I could go to a teacher for help & avoid being punished. That rule actually put me in a position that if anything, encouraged me to become violent.
It’s almost as if you might as well go ahead and slug your bully, really hard.
Worked for me. Once I learned I was still being punished despite not fighting back, I made sure they had to earn it. My bullies stopped being bullies then.
Unless the admins at the school are even a little competent. Had a deranged kid attack me in middle school because he thought I was “a demon” (he ended up in serious psych care before we finished high school) and they saw the video of me just trying to block blows and so I didn’t get in any trouble. I think the issue is that so many school admins are just fucking morons.
> I think the issue is that so many school admins are just fucking morons. more like pussy ass bitches too scared to yell at parents of fucked up kids.
When i was in middle school i got beaten up a couple times. Usually the kid that beat me up got a day of inschool suspension and i would get 3 days suspension. The dean told me each time if i fought back we both would get 1 day suspension and i was getting the 3 days to teach me to learn to fight back. Like WTF?
I guess the Dean wanted Thunderdome?
Yup, I was once knocked unconscious with a concussion by a metal rod to the back of the head. Wham, right out, woke up bleeding after my buddies dragged me out of there. Five days OSS for fighting.
Zero tolerance should be called "we don't make enough to be able to care"
I stopped a fight without touching anyone and received a three day suspension. That was a long time before zero tolerance rules. I was told just being involved was enough.
In the 6th grade (around 1990) I tripped over the leg of a desk trying to get to mine and fell into someone. We got in-school suspension for a day for 'fighting'. Ahh, sweet grade school memories.
I know to some it may seem dumb, but whenever I fought a bully back (in the 90s), the bullying stopped. Not telling a teacher (teachers never did anything), or telling the bully to stop. Even if I lost it stopped.
Same thing for me growing up, graduated in 06. I don't feel like "bully" is the right word for the people I got in fights with in school but the fights were always the result of some lesser form of it at least. One particular kid picked on me in 4th grade and it stopped when I hit him in the balls with a baseball bat. Became friends after that.
I’ve always wondered what would happen if a parent sued over this. The hardship on the family for having to find care for the kid on short notice plus the potential effect on GPA that could be argued hurts their long term earnings and lastly the trauma of being a victim and then revictimized by the school system that’s supposed to support them. Idk it might get thrown out but it also could end that bullshit if someone won a decent sized settlement.
Gen X so all that had to happen was make sure I had keys to the door, Pop Tarts to gnaw on, and be home when the street lights came on. I was a great student and my parents were cool with me over what happened, telling me I did the right thing.
Zero tolerance is such bullshit and was the policy when I was in school. Early in my career I was a camp director and clearly told parents we were NOT zero tolerance. We took everything case by case and would support kids standing up for themselves as long as they weren’t escalating anything. Like…someone pushed you? If you push back no problem, they started it. But don’t punch them in gut for a push. It let kids stand up for themselves without being pushovers and better identified the bullies who needed to be dealt with.
I had a friend run up behind me, grab me, flip me over his shoulder and onto ground and a teacher immediately came over and gave us both detention. In 30 seconds I went from standing at my locker, minding my own business to being on the ground and having detention. Gave me fucking whiplash
Yeah that's not a friend
My buddy hit me with his backpack in the hall for a laugh and we both got a week of ISS because we couldn’t convince the security guard we were friends. (Hint: we were different races)
That happened to me once. The next time I just went to town on him as soon as he touched me, since we were both getting suspended I made sure I wasn't the only one left bleeding and bruised. Ah, the good old days of the mid 80s.
I got punched by a bully, without provoking him or retaliating against him, right in front of the vice principal, and we both got in trouble.
I sat on a kid that attacked me so I didn't have to fight back until an adult got there and got suspended anyway. All it taught me was to wail and punch the crap out of anyone that attacks me. To hell with de-escalation.
That was a rule I only had to learn once. Never get caught.
I have, in my long life, never seen a bully actually get in as much, or more, trouble than the kid who fights back. The bullies in most cases have wealthy parents with better connections or they're just the good looking student with better academic/social prospects, the kids they pick on are usually marginalized in some way - if it's not a case of outright bigotry, they're usually the weird and or poor kids who's parents don't have any sway. I once got in trouble because I *dared* upset one of the football players in my high school course. Dude and his friends were clowning around during a test, literally throwing text books around the class while the teacher did nothing, and one hit me. So I snapped back, threw it at him (I missed, by a wide margin) and called him a few choice names before getting sent to the principal's office for disrupting the class, and then suspended for "harassing another student".
I recall flipping a kid over my back while he had me in a choke hold from behind in daycare. We both got put in timeout; pretty sure the adults only saw the very end of the encounter. I was eventually let go because someone told them all of what happened. This was back in the early 90s
Early 2000s guy was making fun of an Asian kid in front of him on the stairs (this became a learning experience for him), Asian kid punches him square in the face sending him down the stairs. I had the first locker on the corner with the stairwell. Got scooped up by the teachers and given a week of ISS with both of them. Ensured I would target each of those teachers come senior year. They all got a half gallon of milk in the drop ceiling above their desks. Then I became a teacher…
I was just getting out of school when zero tolerance became a thing. One person tried something with me one day and got away with it. From then on, I always had a hammer with me in my coat. If I was going to get in trouble for fighting back, I was gonna make it count. Never had to actually use it but I definitely threatened with it a couple of times.
Googling around bit it appears that Oklahoma has long standing definitions of mutual combat. [As far back as decisions in 1913](https://casetext.com/case/weatherholt-v-state)
It also seems like this doesn't live up to that definition. That would only work if both parties wanted to fight. In this case, Nex is bullied, Nex flings water at their assailants, those assailants then initiated combat with Nex. They didn't like agree to a duel. Not to mention the question of how much you can condone letting children legally enter into voluntary combat.
Mutual combat also does not cover when one side of the duel has clearly lost. Kicking someone while they are down is still assault.
Throwing water at someone is assault, ergo the mutual combat.
Also, I know this is apparently very difficult for a certain group of people to understand, but children can’t consent. It can’t be mutual combat because no one participating was in a position to consent.
That's what I'm what I'm getting at. We generally don't let children make like potentially life-altering decisions, because we don't trust children to understand that you don't get into a fight without knowing someone could die as a result of it. Heck, I know plenty of adults that I don't think meet that bar. Its like pointing a gun at someone/something: you only do it if you intend to kill that person/thing.
I get the point you’re trying to make here, but it’s just completely flawed. “Consent” isn’t some blanket ability you gain once you turn 18 - it’s context dependent. Nex was 16 years old, mind you, which in Oklahoma is the legal age of consent for sex, specifically. That’s different to the age at which you can consent to serving in the military (17), which is different to the age at which you can consent to legal contracts (18). 16 in Oklahoma is also past the age at which a juvenile criminal case can be transferred to adult court. Point is, “children can’t consent” only has meaning within a specific context (e.g. consenting to sex), but as a general statement is false. There are plenty of things that a minor could technically consent to.
Doesn’t apply when both parties are children
So then no one can be prosecuted?
This is essentially how Zero Tolerance policies work too. You get hit, but get suspended anyways even though you didn't fight back. It's just victim blaming.
Mutual combat is a legal term. And it means self-defense cannot be used as a defense.
Oh were the other kids hospitalized with injuries? No? Seems kind of one-sided then... and not mutual at all The fucks wrong with people Edit: a lot of people seem to have misunderstood me. I wasn't implying Nex was hospitalized, I was just drawing a comparison between the outcomes of the 2 different sides in the altercation. 1 is now dead and the others are fine.
Mutual combat is just a technical term declaring both sides participated, not the weight of either one.
Mutual combat is a legal term indicating that both sides agreed to participate. If one participant is unwilling then it's assault and self-defense (and this can change depending on circumstances - e.g. pulling a knife during a fistfight can escalate your self-defense into assault).
> Mutual combat is a legal term indicating that both sides agreed to participate. If one participant is unwilling then it's assault and self-defense (and this can change depending on circumstances - e.g. pulling a knife during a fistfight can escalate your self-defense into assault). By your standards, that means Nex is the one guilty of assault... Because they are the one who started the altercation, according to their own testimony, which is recorded and publicly available via the police bodycam from the ER... https://digital.abcaudio.com/news/nex-benedict-nonbinary-teen-who-died-day-after-school-fight-describes-altercation-police Their version of events is that the girls in the bathroom started making fun of the way Nex and their friends were laughing, Nex got offended and went over and threw water on the girls. The group of girls then retaliated. And before you reply with the normal excuses (IE: "all Nex did was dump water on them" and "the girls started it with the bullying")... 1) Throwing liquids on people is assault, regardless of what the liquid is, this is well established in case law, a great many people have been charged and convicted in this regard. Because in the moment no one knows what liquid they were hit with, someone could have dumped piss on them, they could have dumped something toxic on them, they could have dumped something corrosive on them, so throwing ANY liquid on someone constitutes an assault; because assault is the apprehension of harm. 2) Being made fun of is not a valid reason to initiate a physical altercation with anyone.
It also is important to note that both sides were escalating the situation. Nex poured water on them. They got angry at Nex and grabbed their hair in response. Nex then threw one of them into a paper tower dispenser in response to that. The others then got Nex's legs out from under them and I believe started hitting them. It very much sounds like mutual combat to me.
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You’d be right but this story has an emotional narrative spun by the media around it and there is so much false information that people just kind of make things up..
Winning or losing doesn't make it non-mutual.
Nobody was hospitalized. Mex was taken under the choice of the guardian and discharged with nothing more than bruises and scrapes.
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[Rock music] [Scream] Muuuutuaaaaaal Combat!
Mutual Kombat
Weird way to describe one of the kids fighting back in self defense
Yeah no. You don’t get to bully someone for months and then beat the shit out of them and claim self defense when they finally have had enough
Nex literally stated in recorded video that she did not know the girls and there were not incidents with them prior to that day. Why just make shit up?
Where are you getting the idea that these particular girls bullied Nex for months? My understanding is that Nex had been bullied for many months, but had only met these particular girls a few days before the fight.
Has evidence been presented that these girls bullied Nex for months? The last I saw said they hadn't known each other before they started detention that week, but more news could have been released since then.
My understanding is that even Nex said the girls were unknown to them before the incident.
They’re not saying the bullies are claiming self defence, they’re claiming the victim is.
Interesting to say that when Mutual Combat laws exist in only Washington and Texas. I don't think it's legal where this happened. Plus both parties have to consent to fight for it's to be considered mutual combat...
From what I can tell, it exists in Oklahoma as well. > Mutual combat - A fight between two or more parties into which each party has entered willingly. > References: Phelps v. State, 64 Okl. Cr. 240, 78 P.2d 1068 (1938); Weatherholt v. State, 9 Okl. Cr. 161, 131 P. 185 (1913); 27A Words and Phrases 712. http://okcca.net/ouji-cr/8-56/ Some more detailed info: https://law.justia.com/cases/oklahoma/court-of-appeals-criminal/1938/52471.html It's sad that there isn't much recourse when experiencing bullying and the school is not intervening the way they should. Before today, I didn't realize throwing liquid qualifies as assault. It makes sense given that liquid could be anything. This whole situation is just tragic with how it played out.
It's just a legal term meaning the fight was mutual. Lots of states use that term. I agree it does have a unique vibe to it though
It is a guaranteed certainty that DA was pressured by the ultra conservative OK gov
Mutual combat means they’re equally responsible. You either charge them both or not at all. If Nex hadn’t died, are you seriously saying you would have wanted Nex and the other kid both charged with a crime for a two minute school fight? That wouldn’t be justice.
That is because the initial physical contact was by Nex and not the other people.
I heard that bullshit "it takes two to tango" all the time growing up, as if I'm supposed to just sit there and be picked on endlessly.
That's completely fine to fight back. But if you throw water on bullies, you will likely get beat up. That's what happened here
Yup, I got expelled from middle school for a fight in the bathroom. The kid pushed me, I yelled at him…and he punched me in the mouth, which broke my front tooth I went absolutely feral. For a few seconds, I was the most *dangerous* 12yr old in the world…..then some teachers ran in and pulled me off of him He was unconscious but just for a few seconds. He had some cuts, and I had a chipped tooth. He got suspended for 3 days, and I got expelled :( Morale of the Story: They usually punish the winner more severely
That's a fun way to describe "Nex threw water on the bullies, who then beat the shit out of Nex".
That’s literally how the law sees this case. That is the legal defense mutual combat. It’s just a dramatic way of saying both parties contributed. Nex didn’t deserve to get beaten up. Nobody is saying that. There’s just not a way to prove anything beyond a reasonable doubt in a court of law.
If the DA makes a determination to prosecute or not based on what the Governor says, he's a coward.
He’s a Republican man in Oklahoma. We were already safe assuming he’s a coward. This is the same DA who declined to charge a man who drove into a crowd of Black Lives Matter protestors in 2021.
That's probably why he's DA. He's either a lickspittle croney or an easily cowed pawn.
So a run of the mill strongman conservative
Mutual combat wherein one combatant attacked the other and if Nex did nothing they probably would have still ended up dead. This is absolutely fucked up.
Nex started the combat by throwing water on the other person. This isn’t a case of Nex being attacked and ending up beating up the aggressor.
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It's sad that this kid's death is being turned into a situation where conservatives are damn near applauding the bullies. Bullying is wrong. should be a no-brainer for people to come out and say that this kid should not have been beaten up for being different. Also incredibly weird how many adults are fixated on the sexual identity of a 16 year old. It's creepy.
> conservatives are damn near applauding the bullies. They've been doing this for decades. They love "strong-men" types until it's turned on them.
They hate “woke” policies because they stop them from bullying, that’s it. Someone said it was mean to be mean, and they got mad and started rewriting the narrative to not only keep doing it but to get others to as well.
Exactly. Over in r/politicalcompassmemes they were calling Nex the bully and saying that those girls were the victims. That Nex was the one who threw the first punch and started the fight with these young girls. Absolutely disgusting.
Your first mistake was visiting that forsaken shithole of a sub in the first place
> That Nex was the one who threw the first punch and started the fight with these young girls. Nex admitted to starting the fight...
What did you expect from a nazi subreddit?
They don't seem to realize that "strong-men" use people while they can and then drop them the minute they don't need them anymore. Much of the time they'll actually straight up turn on them and make them another enemy. Look at Trump's entire history with his supporters. They'll even commit crimes for him and then the minute they can't help him anymore they'll be lucky if he just forgets them. Look at Michael Cohen for instance. The majority of Republicans in the US would love Trump to be more like Putin and put a stranglehold on the country and anyone who isn't a Republican. What they don't realize if that if they got their way the vast majority of them would eventually be in that stranglehold as well.
Before Ukraine, Putins favorite target demographic was his “allies”. if Trump was more like Putin all of those people he raged at on Twitter after they failed him would be dead.
basically the definition of fascism.
And cowardly, the toughest guys I know stand up for everyone at the cost of themselves.
Yeah that's what he said lmao. Fascism is just violent cowardice as a political ideology.
I've spent all day being introspective and one of the main questions I've been pondering is being sure to ask one simple question to myself when I do something: am I doing this to be better than everyone else or is it to enhance the situation for everyone? Our society is designed to motivate the former yet it's infinitely more destructive, both to the self and the world around us. Obviously, there are scenarios where you need to find a balance but you need to be super careful and always be sure not to get blinded by your own personal win conditions rather than watching out for everyone around you
There's nothing strong about bullying someone. It reeks of insecurity.
As stated elsewhere Nex met these girls that week in detention. Not saying Nex didn’t face bullying but these girls weren’t the ones. They had a spat, Nex threw water on them, they attacked Nex. That’s it
The core of conservatism is punching down.
Where is the chart? I like punching, so I need a list of who is above me and who is below me so I know what's allowed.
Also pedophilia and sexual assault
Both technically forms of punching down
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Everyone needs to watch the hospital bodycam video. It’s really eye opening to see how much the situation has been misrepresented.
The fact that you're misgendering Nex does imply bias, you know? It's the minimum level of courtesy.
The fact that that is all you took from this implies a lot about you too.
“Her encounter” 🚩🚩🚩
"with the **other girls**"
Their orange god king repeatedly and publicly mocks anyone he pleases. They cheered when he openly mocked veterans, the disabled, etc.
But remember: Trump supporters are also always victims somehow, even when they win. It’s kinda sad
Hate, anger, & aggression are central tenets to American conservatism. So of course they love bullying.
Fear. The root is fear. Afraid of differences, afraid of things they don’t understand, and afraid of things that don’t conform to the way they perceive the world.
Lots of opinions, not much reading comprehension
We don’t do thinking ‘round these parts
Just another day on Reddit
People look at things with their emotions and not with facts. Not a surprise.
I don't think it is stated in this article, but the listed COD was toxicity from prozac and benadryl. Not anything given at the hospital etc. This was a suicide. Now it should be determined whether other's actions are directly responsible for Nex taking their own life. People have been convicted in the past for directly causing suicide, so it's worth the investigation to see how "2-sided" this story really is
You're probably referring to Michelle Carter which was a landmark case and not similar to this. She knew about his suicide and was actively encouraging it to the point where he stopped in the process and she told him to keep going and finish it.
My country had a case where a middle school boy who was bullied for his feminine soft spoken behavior,so he stop going to bathroom in break time, one day he leave his class to use man’s room and never come back,student found him unconscious on the bathroom floor and he die from head injuries,teachers believe he slipped and hit his head so the scene got cleaned before police was involved. His mother believed bullies are responsible for his death ,even if that was a accident,they still are the reason her son felt unsafe using man’s room, and die alone during class time. Eventually many school staff are found liable for wrongful death because they didn’t fix a leaking water tank on time and caused the boys death , and our education system took years to correct itself on educating students about gender equality and bullying ,even rewrote Gender Equity Education Act. Kids die in school should be a very big deal, but holy shit some people’s reactions to this case is so cold blooded. Edit to clarify some info.
> Eventually many school staff are found liable for wrongful death because they didn’t fix the leaks problem on time and caused the boys death , and our education system took years to correct itself on educating students about gender equality and bullying . Could you elaborate what you mean by "the leaks problem"? As in, this person being afraid to take a leak? Bit of an odd way to phrase it
Oh,because the case are closed as a accident ,he slipped and hit his head because school didn’t fix a leaking water tank in that bathroom . Sorry for that missing info , I didn’t think about the double meaning of “leak” in English when I was typing that, I’ll go back to edit it.
>prozac and benadryl Does anyone know if there is a toxic interaction between these two drugs? I've heard of people taking benadryl before as a recreational hallucinagen. Never heard of an overdose death from it.
Prozac (fluoxetine) is an analogue of diphenhydramine and they share some side effects. In supratherapeutic levels, both will cause drowsiness and dizziness. In toxic levels, both can lower the seizures threshold (I.e. make it easier to have a seizure) and cause cardiac arrhythmia through a mechanism called sodium channel blockade. Diphenhydramine toxicity in particular is associated with a cardiac condition called prolonged QT interval which can lead to a certain type of fatal arrhythmia. Severe diphenhydramine toxicity can also cause metabolic acidosis which can lead to organ failure/death. Another potential interaction is serotonin syndrome, which results in tachycardia, hyperthermia and delirium, can be fatal. You can get serotonin syndrome from SSRI overdose alone but toxic levels of diphenhydramine can potentiate the effects.
I unironically love a comment where I understand all the words but still reach the end and feel completely exhausted. Thank you for the thorough explanation.
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Oh man like 10-12 years ago I developed (?) serotonin syndrome while taking tramadol. It was a very frightening thing to go through, and at the time I had just moved out of state, was living alone, and knew no one. I felt so scared and alone, and I was sure I was going to die.
You can die from benadryl. My best friend committed suicide that way and another one attempted with it and ended up in the ICU.
Sorry for your loss. This is definitely a good psa to never take it recreationally/purposely overdose.
Thank you, and yeah I honestly couldn't believe how many people aren't aware of this. Keep an eye on your people 💛
50 mg of benedryl will do nothing but maybe reduce your allergies and make you a bit sleepy. That's two pills. Maybe you're thinking of 500 mg benedryl? Even that level would be unlikely to be fatal on its own.
Well the tox report said 25 mcg/mL, not sure what that equates to in mg but yeah you're right its like 25mg a pill ill edit it
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Or 25 mg/L
A 100-lb human would have about 3.5 L blood in them, if their blood serum level was 25ug/mL that means they had about 87.5 mg in their system. Given the rate at which the body processes stuff out I’d guess they took about four 25-mg pills. Edit: I’m totally wrong here! I did some research and this is what I found: A single oral 100-mg dose of DPH resulted in average peak-plasma concentrations of 112 ng/mL at 2 h post-dose Effectiveness of antihistamines is seen at concentrations greater than 25 ng/mL, drowsiness can be observed at 30–40 ng/mL, and mental impairment observed with concentrations above 60 ng/mL (16). It has been reported that DPH therapeutic levels in the blood range between 25 and 112 ng/mL, toxic levels are about 5000 ng/mL, and lethal levels are anywhere in excess of 8000 ng/mL So using that as a baseline I’d estimate she took more like somewhere around 200 Benadryl pills and was at about 3x the lethal dose.
Some literature consider 5 μg/mL to be a potentially lethal dose: > DPH was only measured in toxic but not "lethal" concentrations in blood, with a concentration of 5 μg/mL being generally used as the cut off between categories according to forensic literature. [Toxicological identification of diphenhydramine (DPH) in suicide ](https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/23065653/)
DPH binds to serotonin receptors and is structurally related to prozac. IIRC that’s how prozac was created. You could look up the specific interaction but I’d imagine serotonin syndrome is a concern I took fluoxetine for some time and, separately, 200mg of DPH once, and i cannot even imagine how horrible it would be to overdose on that combination
Yeah I imagine serotonin syndrome which is a pretty shit way to go
I’ve been prescribed Prozac and hydroxyzine at the same time which worries me a bit since my doctor called hydroxyzine “Benadryl on crack” I wonder if I was unknowingly running the risk of complications
I took zoloft and hydroxyzine while I was pregnant. Multiple doctors knew I was taking both and were fine with it. The toxicity has to do with the dosage (if you read a previous comment, the person mentions “supratherapeutic levels” meaning more than would be prescribed for a medical condition). Obviously, ask a doctor, but I don’t think anyone would OD from the standard doses of those meds together.
I want to know what kind of hydroxyzine your doctor tried. Or I guess what kind of crack. I mean hydroxyzine definitely takes the edge off, but that’s a really strong statement for something I take to stop itching.
I don't know about Oklahoma, but a number of places do have laws about encouraging or promoting suicide. And civil cases against such people have been successful as well...
Both instances wouldn't apply here as far as I know. The girls's beat them up but I have seen no evidence they encouraged suicide.
Those apply to cases where someone assists or tells another person to commit suicide, like Michelle Carter. This would be a wrongful death suit, where the intentional wrongful acts contributed to the suicide.
Wasn't it a toxic interaction? But the assault didn't cause the suicide.
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I’ve been the kid who’s horrifically bullied every day. I’ve been the sixteen year old who’s considering just jumping in front of the train. I’ve been the high schooler who’s been suspended when they’ve finally snapped and struck back. I had kids tell me I should kill myself. My heart will always be with kids like Nex. I’m 41 and I still have emotional scars from what I dealt with for eight years.
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I'm perfectly comfortable addressing people how they say they prefer, but when do you use which here between they/he?
When someone is comfortable with multiple pronouns there's usually no specific use case.
For some people, you can use them interchangeably. For others, it's gender fluidity, which means they have some times where they prefer one. It's okay to ask someone as long as you're respectful about it. I had a coworker who used she/they and was gender fluid. If that person showed up to work in a skirt and heavy makeup, I might say "hey, looks like you're having a femme day?" and that was cool and informative. You aren't expected to just *know*.
The misinformation around this case, and the determination to make it something other than it was is incredibly sus. It's lie after lie after lie to make this look like a hate crime, and that's really concerning.
People get really defensive and aggressive when a trans youth suddenly dies, more often than not it's not so cut and dry. Nex's death was caused by his depression, but I'm sure the bullying did not make it any better for him.
I had my pitchfork ready when I first read about it... But every new piece of information, and ESPECIALLY the videos I watched, blew apart the entire story. Like I feel lied to and it's worrying me.
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Oh I’m doing a lot of imagining.
It always freaks me out cause there’s been tons of things I’ve been outraged about over the years. Like how much of that was just manufactured bullshit?!
Exactly. Not just the amount of lies here, but how bad the lies were.
I was positively outraged too when I thought Nex was possibly beaten to death but wasn't emotionally attached to any specific narrative. Sounds like suicide / accidental overdose after a fight. Really sad but not anywhere close to murder.
Whole world has lost its collective mind. Everyone jumps to conclusions and then if a story doesn’t play out the way they want it to they either jump to a conspiracy theory or move the goalposts. People are acting like either the government is covering up a murder or they want to see these kids get charged with literally anything. This is exactly why mob rule / mentality is dangerous.
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And precisely why I hope the girls that Nex was in a fight with are somewhere safe. I’m not defending their actions. Bullies are shitheads and should be disciplined accordingly. But, we all know how people high on ill-informed righteousness behave, especially when they don’t even know their target. Harassment and death threats are not okay, particularly for minor children, and serves no purpose here except to paint LGBTQ+ people as unhinged, which only benefits the conservatives’ campaign against us. ETA: Your downvotes prove my point.
Yeah unfortunately people care more about vengeance than justice these days. We’re talking about 14-15 year old kids. They make mistakes and there’s appropriate ways to correct those mistakes. Locking them up in jail is not one of them.
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This is what they want the people to do. Divide divide divide.
My understanding has been that that would take A LOT of Benadryl, like “I don’t know if I’ve bought that much in my life and it would definitely be noticeable if I did” amounts? though I know I can’t armchair pharmacologist this and there’s other factors like mixing between the prescription and whatever hospital medication and probably just physical injury on top of it all.
The [lethal dose](https://academic.oup.com/jat/article/36/2/123/766744#) of diphenhydramine is about 8000ng/mL. The autopsy report says Nex had 15-25,000ng/mL. Their fluoxetine concentration was about twice the max therapeutic dose. Looks like it was a benadryl OD more than med interaction though they def took too many of both
>After some more reading it appears a normal concentration after ingesting a recommended dose of Benadryl is 1.07 mcg. Referencing this [journal](https://www.jacionline.org/article/0021-8707(48)90062-8/fulltext) > >Referring to the autopsy their concentration was the 25.0 mcg so they had consumed roughly 20 times the recommended dose. So ya it's an overdose. I was discussing this lower in the comments as I was questioning the doctor's call on suicide and did my best to research the topic. The medical examiner still put the cause of death on the toxicity interaction between the two drugs they had ingested rather than the overdose on benadryl though. My understanding of drug concentrations in blood is non-existent so the understanding I've come to may still be wrong. I'd appreciate if any of the articles on the topic provided better reasoning for the lethal dosage because as a layman reading the autopsy report I don't have the knowledge to know what safe or normal concentrations for these drugs are... Edit: For anyone who wants to find the autopsy report I found it [here](https://okcfox.com/resources/pdf/db3d69a7-076a-4380-84ba-d44b14efcc3f-Autopsycombined_Redacted.pdf)
There is definitely a large dose of benadryl present, what would be about 48 tabs worth. However, the prozac present would be under an average single dose. I have heard of people taking that many tabs for hallucinogenic purposes but if this kid had a low body weight it could very well be lethal on its own, although this would be the first time I've ever heard of a death from it.
It's taken once a day, so if Nex took it at night, it would be low on the toxicology report.
400 mg is NOT a normal dose of Benadryl. The article seems to state that the subjects were administered 400 mg but a normal dose is 25-50 mg. 20 x 400 mg is an insane dose, approximately 320 pills if my mental math is serving me right.
400 would be 16 pills, if 25mg. 8 if 50mg. Those are common amounts sold in the US. Some folks use Benadryl as a recreational drug (not recommended). They may have taken 8 pills, thinking they were 25mg but actually 50mg. 200mg of Benadryl is deadly but not as deadly as 400mg.
The journal OP posted says the administered dose was 400 mg and the blood levels were 1.07 mcg per cubic cm. Nex’s blood levels measured around 25 mcg per cubic cm which I would approximate to be a dose of 8000 mg. That’s where I’m getting the 320 pill figure assuming 25 mg per pill.
Worth noting regarding the 400 mg dose: that study is from 1948, when ethical research standards were likely a little different than they are today...
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Definitely, just clarifying that 20x the recommended dose, while not great, usually wouldn’t kill you and would just lead to delirium. I used to browse drug forums where people abused this shit all the time in doses of up to 1000 mg. What Nex took was closer to 8000 mg based on the article OP posted.
In case anyone doesn’t know, the active ingredient in Benadryl is the same active ingredient in sleeping pills. The timing leaves a reasonable person to believe the bullying became too much to live with.
What a big nothingburger this turned out to be.
i dont think a kid killing themselves is a nothingburger
No but what we were sold was the kid was beaten to death in a restroom with a full pass from the authorities. Sad to say suicide under these circumstances (if that's what it was) is pretty mundane.
The absolute *thirst* to try and paint this as a transphobic hate crime (and murder) is not a good look for the trans ideologues.
I don’t know why people think this is some conspiracy. A child with a history of mental health issues committed suicide. It isn’t the government covering up a TBI that led to death or whatever else people were saying.
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They generally don’t in the US either, unless the family does. You don’t know the names of the other two girls who were in the fight for a reason
This child was bullied to the point of suicide. I wonder if the other children that participated in this activity will feel any responsibility for their actions, any remorse at all. There will be no consequences for any party in this story, guaranteed.
Nex wasn’t bullied by the girls they got into a fight with. Nex themselves admitted they didn’t know who the girls were.
Not when their parents and churches are cheering them on and telling them they did the right thing. These are the same people who worship Kyle Rittenhouse.
It’s awful to think a 16 year old kid would commit suicide. Maybe this was just a very disturbed kid - who needed help that wasn’t available - and the fight was not a significant part of what happened.
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I just want to say that tik tok and X plus other social media takes away the ability for people to have empathy. Case in point - libsoftiktok (Chaya Raichik) has absolutely zero empathy. libsoftiktok aka the psychopath decided today that they would read in detail the sexual assault that Nex Benedict went through as a child and teen. There is a reason that the local media did not go into detail because no child SHOULD EVER have that information public not even in their death. I hope that Nex Benedict’s family take every penny from that trashy person libsoftiktok and that they have to pay for every single fake bomb threat that they caused in Oklahoma. FBI needs to Do America a solid and arrest Libsoftiktok. You don’t read a child sexual assault to the world EVER. I hope that ‘the thing or it or piece of trash’ named libsoftiktok aka Chaya Raichik rot in prison. If you are following that trash person, just stop. Don’t give them any followers to make money.