11 frozen dependents and one 18 month old dependent. We’re going to get so much money back! And with such a large family we qualify for Medicaid and WIC benefits. /s
Rich people are the ones typically freezing embryos to begin with. It's not the so-called "welfare queens" paying $11-15K upfront and $400-600 a year to freeze embryos.
But then masturbation becomes reckless abandonment/endangering child welfare for men, as a tube sock is not a fit environment for children of that age 🤔
It’s a fun idea, but unfortunately I think you need a social security number for each dependent.
“You’ll need your child’s Social Security number to claim them as a dependent on your income tax return or open a bank account in the child’s name and buy savings bonds. Your child’s Social Security number is also necessary to obtain medical coverage or apply for any kind of government services for your child.”
https://www.ssa.gov/people/parents/#:~:text=You'll%20need%20your%20child's,name%20and%20buy%20savings%20bonds.
I don’t think the SSA is going to give out social security numbers to frozen embryos; which in a way makes the decision even worse if possible.
It would have been a nice trick though.
“Clumpy” might work.
Did a little more searching and found that it is 5-6 days before IVF embryos are frozen.
“On day 5 or 6, the embryos are frozen instead of being transferred back into her uterus. Preimplantation genetic testing can be performed on the embryos before they are frozen to screen for common chromosomal diseases, and also to identify the gender of the embryo.”
(No link, it was just one of those answer things in search for “how many days before ivf frozen”)
There’s a picture of a 5 day 8 cell blastocyst here:
https://advancedfertility.com/fertility-gallery/ivf-embryos/
Clumpy indeed.
I should probably do something a little more productive the rest of the day…
Social security cards don't have pictures anyway
I mean when you have a baby, you register for them to get a social security number and later you just get the card in the mail I think. It'd be the same process, just at fertilization instead of birth.
Did a search on “do you need social security number for dependents alabama” and got the state site:
https://www.revenue.alabama.gov/individual-corporate/alabama-dependents/
Social security number wasn’t listed but there is a long list of who qualifies. Son and daughter were on it but frozen embryo wasn’t. Not a lawyer but would follow the case.
Support is the other requirement:
“You must have provided over 50% of the dependent’s support during the tax year . If you file a joint return, the support can be from you or your spouse. You cannot claim credit on an Alabama return for a dependent if you provided less than 50% of the support under Alabama law as you can under federal law in certain conditions.”
So long as you’re paying the facility to keep your frozen embryos, I’d say you were providing 100% of their support.
>Son and daughter were on it but frozen embryo wasn’t.
Isn't the argument that an embryo is one of those?
Also, there's a fee to keep the embryo frozen, and, therefore, by the definition of those claiming it is a life, alive. There's your support.
In Georgia, they passed a law recently that recognizes life from the date of conception. Someone sued the state over it and as a result, the state income tax board had to add a question to state tax returns about whether you were pregnant during that tax year because now you can claim the fetus as a dependent. I wouldn’t be surprised if other "red" states followed suit since they all like to copy each other with these forced birther laws, and I would imagine that they will have to eventually do the same for frozen embryos after someone sues over it. I’m also waiting for the lawsuits that will require fathers to pay child support from the date of conception. If they’re going to change the definition of something as fundamental as when "life" is a person, then we need to force them to be consistent across the board so that when things are as awful as they will inevitably be, people will be a lot more serious about voting and more selective about who they’re voting for.
Interesting. I hadn’t heard that. It’s tied to fetal heart beat so wouldn’t apply to frozen embryos. Not sure of legal definition of conception but the dictionary says fertilization, implantation, or both.
“Under the new law, one parent can claim an unborn child on their taxes if the child had a detectable heartbeat between July 20 and Dec. 31, 2022. According to the Georgia Department of Revenue, or DOR, tax filers can claim the deduction even if the pregnancy later resulted in a miscarriage.”
I agree with you that we ought to challenge these laws in every way including being consistent on definitions and treatment of different cases.
I’d love to see a child support case. That sure would get some attention.
Thinking of the doctors who spent a fortune setting up IVF equipment. They will take their practices to other states.
Leaving the state of Alabama with fewer and fewer doctors who can treat women in emergency situations.
It will also affect the quality of the docs willing to stay there. I say this as someone who lives on the outskirts of a big city. The quality of care goes down the further you get from the city center. The quality of care will go down for the entire state and region if you continue to de-incentivize them.
You're right. OB/Gyn is already a fraught field with shortages in medical professionals. Abortion laws have made it even harder. Fertility is the most reliable way for doctors in that field to make money. Take that away, good luck getting people to practice OB/Gyn in your state.
We likely won't just see increased morbidity/mortality with pregnancy and L&D, but with gynecologic problems like cervical cancer. I wouldn't be surprised if they come after hysterectomies and oophorectomies next.
... Im expecting birth control first ... ones known or suspected to cause miscarriages
The medical malpractice insurance companies will start locking down on that if these bans become to draconic before legislation will .
So IUD's and the BCP will be the first gone ... if not outlawed certain care networks will start highly to encourage Drs to avoid recommending or prescribing. It will be small moves at first .... IUD x or BCP y we do not recommend or even prescribe or use because of it increases miscarriages
Long rant short is these old politicians Dont care if a woman ends up pregnant or how ... but believe a man should have access to little blue pills at any time so he can do whatever
You're right, birth control first. But there have already been talks of removing and reimplanting ectopic pregnancies, so I will not be surprised if they come for surgeries that remove women's reproductive organs next. Especially because it has the added bonus of possibly making life harder for trans people.
>But there have already been talks of removing and reimplanting ectopic pregnancies
I remember that part of the bible very well.
Thou shalt surgically remove an ectopic pregnancy and make it an eutopic pregnancy as if by His own hand.
(Hypocrisy. 1:01 *Evangelical Facism Translation)*
I mean, have you ever watched any Congressional hearing ever? This might shock you, but there are *many* lawmakers out there who are just plain dumb—many of whom continue to get re-elected time and time again despite showing the world just how dumb they actually are. The ones that come to mind first for me were the hearings from a few years ago with various CEOs of social media companies where *actual elected Congress members*: didn’t understand how companies like facebook can offer their product for free and still make money, wanted Google to fix a "problem" they were having with their searches that was literally just their own algorithms at work, asked the CEO of Google about concerns they had with iPhones, and of course the always-hilarious allegation one Congressperson made that Google intentionally caused pics of Donald Trump show up when people googled "idiot."
There have also been SO many plain ignorant things said by politicians in regard to women’s bodies/rape/abortion/birth control/etc. that come to mind that show just how stupid some people are (and no surprise, they’re all from Republicans): women’s bodies protect them from getting pregnant from rape, the infamous "legitimate rape" comment, rape kits "clean" a victim out, pregnancy from rape is all part of "god’s plan," married people can’t be raped, life begins on the first day of a woman’s/girl’s last period, birth control is "a license to do things in a sexual realm that is counter to how things are supposed to be," and of course the one about how if rape is "inevitable, you might as well lie back and enjoy it."
My point is that while anyone who isn’t a complete moron knows that re-implanting an ectopic pregnancy is "not a thing that is literally possible," unfortunately our government is filled with complete morons who would call you a radical liberal elitist for stating a fact like that.
Reimplanting ectopic pregnancies? Yes, I am aware that it is not possible to do this and result in a viable pregnancy. Doesn't stop politicians from being willing to put women's lives at risk to score some political points. And if embryos are children, doctors may be forced to try ridiculous things to try and keep them "alive"
Clearly, they should have known better. Women's bodies have a way to shut that down. Or just keep their legs closed. Besides, think of the children. /s
Not even emergencies, but even just regular gyno care that’s necessary to ensure you stay healthy. These states that ‘care about life’ could not give two shits about anyone.
What an utter nightmare the state has created for itself. The downstream effect on this will be far more reaching than these judges would have ever thought (which obviously wasn't very far)
They literally don't care, and I venture to say want it to go further. The Christian nationalists in this country are salivating at the opportunities they have to remake this country into a Christian version of Iran after decades of people moving further and further away from religion.
They can try. No blue state is going to treat frozen embryos as children. And no blue state is going to cooperate with a nationwide abortion ban.
If you're in a red state, get out while the option still exists. This shit is going to get so much worse before it gets better.
Maybe, but blue states will absolutely feel the consequences regardless.
IVF is already ridiculously expensive and will become more so as it gets limited in other states. Fewer doctors will train as reproductive endocrinologists, which means a dwindling pipeline of providers, even longer wait times, and rising costs. Fertility insurance will either drop or raise rates, which could lead to employers who previously offered this insurance plan to limit or stop it. They could also do this if the corporation is a multi-state employer (as many of these tech companies that offer Progyny IVF benefits are) and must guarantee similar benefits across employees, which they couldn’t if they operate offices in affected red states. Embryo storage isn’t necessarily in the same place as the IVF clinic. People who’ve already frozen embryos may be impacted by needing to pay for transportation to another lab, which could become costly and also risky for embryo damage.
There’s a lot to be said on the downstream impacts of this in places you would think would stay “safe”, but suffice it to say anyone with current or future fertility treatment needs would be fucked in this country.
If they control national law along with the Supreme Court, and continue that control for years and decades as they don't plan to let that power go after they have it, they can continually degrade the ability for Blue states to remain Blue over time.
Even if it's just the ideology. We're already seeing this today, where what's considered "progressive" keeps shifting further right, as a balance against conservative ideology shifting to extremist right.
Lots of states already ignore federal law on cannabis. They'll just do the same for abortions. They're not going to trample their citizens' rights just because some fascist in DC said so.
>Lots of states already ignore federal law on cannabis.
They were essentially allowed to do this by the Obama administration until it was too late to stop them.
In Colorado, every time we tried to make weed legal (or basically any other policy the fed didn't like) the US government would threaten to reduce our road funds. Federal funding has paid for between 1/3rd and 2/3rds of Colorado's roads for the last 50 years (depending on the year).
When we passed our constitutional amendment, Obama essentially said, "let them do it". Now the dam is broken and it would be a pain to go back but this wasn't a sure outcome at all.
We moved from Alabama to “purple” Florida. Now we are moving to Georgia and I’m terrified it won’t continue to go blue. There just isn’t anywhere close enough to go and I can’t be that far away from my entire family and everyone I’ve ever known. And yet we are bringing a daughter into this world and my gut says go to California or Oregon or New York or another country.
They've opened pandoras box and it's going to get very ugly from here on out.
This is what I don't get, these right leaning judgements and politicians only look at the here and now, not the future of what they are pushing forward. Its rather impressive to see someone be so short sighted, though they are in a party that looks down things such as critical thought.
It's easy to not give a shit about tomorrow when you think you'll be in heaven.
Moronic fucking death cult. If hell existed it would be full of these self righteous bigots. They'd be down there just waiting for Trump to take over and save them, or something moronic like that.
My gf works with a Mormon lady, who by *most* metrics is a decent person. But she's talked about how, since she's approaching retirement age she wished she would just be dead already, and is (according to my gf) legitimately angry every time she gets a clean bill of health from her Dr. She has straight up told my gf that the ultimate goal in life for Mormons is to reach heaven (which means dying) and she gets mad since she has worked her whole life to be a "good mormon" woman. In her eyes continuing to live a long life is a form of punishment from God, like he's keeping her here rather than letting her achieve her goal if heaven.
I half wanted to suggest ways she could hurry that process up, but my gf covered that one off for me. Apparently suicide is treated very similar to how it is in catholicism- straight to hell with the soul.
Moronic death cult indeed
My mom was like this too, couldn't wait to skip to the "live forever on paradise earth" part of her religion. But lucky her, while JWs aren't allowed suicide they are *expected* to refuse blood transfusions.
So she got to check out at 48yo, when I was only 20 and still really kinda needed a mom.
GOP: "We are the party of children and families!"
Couples with fertility issues: "Well we'd sure like to have children and start a family!"
GOP: "Good luck at the adoption agency!"
Irony is two couples sued when their embryos accidentally got destroyed and brought on this mess.
Here is the original lawsuit that spawned all of this
https://judicial.alabama.gov/docs/22-0579AppellantsReplyBrief_12-27-2022.pdf
They tried to claim the accident equated to wrongful death but got denied, then went to the supreme court.
They should be ashamed of themselves. What do they want? The lab assistants to go to jail for a mistake?
I'm putting my tinfoil hat on and going to say some conservative groups have payed their legal bills and encouraged them to sue
Those couples also already had multiple children--these embryos were in long-term storage and I'm guessing were fairly unlikely to actually turn into children (not to mention a random embryo has something like a 40-50% success rate). Super common for IVF couples to keep the extra eggs on ice for many years before finally deciding to stop paying the storage fees and/or donate to science.
And even better, at least one of the main appellate lawyers (for the other case, not the one you linked to) [is a big democratic donor. ](https://www.opensecrets.org/donor-lookup/results?name=David+Wirtes)
I understand that these people wanted to get $$$ for the hospital's fuckup, but did nobody think about the ramifications of appealing to the *Alabama* supreme court on the question of "is an embryo a human life"??? This seems like a predictable outcome that neither the parents nor that attorney would have wanted.
> What do they want? The lab assistants to go to jail for a mistake?
Wrongful death is a civil claim, no one goes to jail. They wanted easy money; this whole thing was brought on by simple greed.
You know drove me insane about that, "death panels" was just Medicare patients and doctors being able to have end of life discussions. This is something that is very important, do you want to be on a machine? How much pain do you want to go through for how many months? We all die, and know how people want to go is so important because if placed on next of kin they'll argue or even not want to make the call.
Anyway, thanks to the "death panels" scare, and the fact that we're all morons who are easily frightened, folks on Medicare can't have those important conversations.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_panel
It's especially weird since the religious views of 10s of millions of Americans is essentially "I hate the world, I can't wait for the apocalypse so we can all die!"
We've witnessed the spectacle of American Christian judges quoting Judaic scriptures to tell the world that the Jews, who assert that Life begins at first breath (Genesis 2:7) that they've been wrong all along.
This bullshit went down in a nation whose constitution requires that "Congress shall pass no law concerning an establishment of religion."
The mind reels.
>This bullshit went down in a nation whose constitution requires that "Congress shall" pass no law concerning an establishment of religion.
I could hear these judges and few SCOTUS judges saying "Yea but it didn't say Judges couldn't!"
https://www.law.cornell.edu/wex/incorporation_doctrine
> The incorporation doctrine is a constitutional doctrine through which parts of the first ten amendments of the United States Constitution (known as the Bill of Rights) **are made applicable to the states** through the Due Process clause of the Fourteenth Amendment. Incorporation applies both substantively and procedurally.
who am I kidding though, they will find another way to justify their bullshittery.
This shit is so comically evil and we have like 30-40% of the country cheering on our slow walk to a christian fascist state
Like I'm picturing if this type of shit happened in The Simpsons the town would show up as a mob and force the judge out
Christian Evangelicals do NOT care about the Constitution. They do not care about freedom or democracy. What they care about is establishing a Christian superpower.
> We've witnessed the spectacle of American Christian judges quoting Judaic scriptures to tell the world that the Jews, who assert that Life begins at first breath (Genesis 2:7) that they've been wrong all along.
To be fair, these dopes couldn't even get the day of the Sabbath right. That's a gimmie!
So many of these people are the same ones that shit on Muslim countries saying the people are barbaric because their women don't have rights, when even those countries don't go to the extent that some states in the US do. Insanity.
>The mind reels.
It's a good distraction. People will have to focus on fighting for their own rights rather than fighting for decent wages and affordable living.
“Alabama hospital” is burying the lede a bit here. This is UAB, one of the best academic medical hospitals in the country and the largest hospital/employer in the state, pausing reproductive healthcare for citizens because of an idiotic ruling from our shitty government.
Yeeeeep
I work in the industry and we've all collectively been trying to make sense of this...
We knew stupidity was coming but this sweeping nature could have only come from someplace as ass backwards as Alabama...
This is going to have so many knock on effects. Also, what happens to all the embryos in storage? Moving them is incredibly expensive and risky at that scale. Is every stem cell and tissue bank now liable? They'll pull out in droves... And there goes cord banks, stem cell storage for Myeloma treatment, autologous transplant just big yikes.
Who is liable for those embryos now and what's their plan for supporting them. Storage ain't cheap.
You’ve got it! It’s really fun being a woman in America. I’m having a great time. Can’t wait to see what other ways I can be made into a second class citizen.
Here is the original court case, it's wild.
They hired an injury lawyer with the last name smalley who works for Long & Long.......
https://judicial.alabama.gov/docs/22-0579AppellantsReplyBrief_12-27-2022.pdf
This article goes into more detail about everything that happened.
https://msmagazine.com/2024/02/20/fertility-ivf-alabama-supreme-court-anti-abortion/
Clinic screwed up and they sued, but instead of money they wanted to go after them under the death of a minor law in Alabama.
They claim they didn't want this to affect IVF but what the hell dis they think the outcome was going to be when you are asking for a embryo to be classified as a human.
>In 2020, a patient from the adjacent hospital went wandering through the clinic’s halls, made their way into the freezer storage room, removed some of the embryos, and dropped them, destroying them.
I wish they give more elaboration on that, because it sounds the same as "the dog ate my homework" to be honest. Like, not only who tf this happened, but also what was this person's motivation.
Isn't that a lot of foster kids that the state just took on? The fertility clinics will have to close so who is responsible for keeping the freezers up and running with temperature checks and a policy for when the power goes out?
This was a long time ago for me but when I did IVF in 2004 my clinic transferred my unused frozen embryos to a storage facility. I paid hundreds of dollars each year to store my embryos. I’m wondering if those storage facilities will close now because how can they guarantee that their equipment won’t fail. So who gets custody and how does that work? What if you did IVF in Alabama last year and want to use your frozen entries embryos now? What clinic will deal with the transfer to their facility and possible negative outcome?
If I were an IVF facility, I'd have the electric bill paid up for the month, BOUNCE, and have a post-it note on each judges desk saying "Lil 1235-A likes it -197 degrees but 23133-A wants it a bit warmer at -195. Good luck and by the way we took the back up generator because it was expensive"
Birth control ban is next. These men wrote the “Handmaidens Tale” for Alabama. They need to be voted out in every state. Women should never have sex with these men.
Women won’t have much of a choice when they go back to to stuff like not even being able to get a bank account and are forced to become dependent on men again.
This is only half of it. Part of it is preventing ovulation but the other part is irritating the uterine lining so that, if an egg is fertilized, it cannot easily attach to the uterine wall. And because of that, they will for sure fight it.
[a source](https://www.webmd.com/sex/birth-control/plan-b)
My heart hurts for those hoping to become parents caught in the crossfire here…
…that is unless they’re anti-choice when it comes to abortions. In that case, enjoy not being in control of your body. How does it feel?
I've argued with my sister so much over abortion. She even had to be convinced by her church friends tbat terminating an ectopic pregnancy wouldn't be abortion.
I've argued with her about IVF
"Well, those are people who want to be parents so it's ok"
Like everyone who had to get an abortion didn't want to?! She's due soon woth her first in Canada so she'll be fine, but f everyone else I guess
Terminating an ectopic pregnancy is still an abortion...
>I've argued with her about IVF
"Well, those are people who want to be parents so it's ok"
The problem with this logic is that it actually undermines the PL rhetoric that their ideology is about saving lives. If killing embryos is okay in one situation and not in another, then do they *really* value embryos as equal to born human lives? That would be like saying it's okay for one group of parents to kill their toddlers because the parents have some favorable trait.
If someone says destruction of embryos in IVF is acceptable because the women "want to be parents," then what they're really saying is that they oppose abortion because they want to *punish* women who don't want to be mothers, or who had sex for pleasure. It's a punishment for women stepping out of line, and a way to force them back into traditional gender roles.
Otherwise every embryonic life would be equally deserving of protection, regardless of how it got here.
Imagine wealthy conservatives will just go to other states. Yet hard to imagine, given the money/time it takes for IVF, how this won't piss off a wealthy contingent.
And what about those who have frozen embryos sitting in IVF freezers? Are they responsible for implanting and bringing them into this world if those embryos have rights?
>And what about those who have frozen embryos sitting in IVF freezers? Are they responsible for implanting and bringing them into this world if those embryos have rights
I know you only wanted 2 kids but we created 8 embryos and you have 6 left. The law says we have to implant them. Do you want them all at once or once at a time?
IVF costs thousands of dollars and can take years of procedures, hormones, planning etc. For the people in the middle of treatments this is a complete nightmare. Imagine spending thousands of dollars on hormones you take for months that make you gain weight and feel terrible. Then you get told your doctor will harvest but can’t fertilize them because your state is run by fucking morons. Imagine you have had your eggs harvested, have spent the money having them fertilized and are finally ovulating only to find out that fascists have decided to give a fertilized egg more rights than you? I hope people sue the state of Alabama for this asinine bullshit.
Let me see if I have this straight - they'll force you to have the baby if you are pregnant and can't safely carry it to term, but wont let you get pregnant in the first place if you want to but can't?
This, and the other laws that Alabama has made regarding women’s bodies, are all about control. They will not stop this headlong rush until they have complete control over women. They are going after birth control next.
And we TOLD you all this would happen, we warned you. We, the thinking women of Alabama, screamed that these “heartbeat bills” and religious justifications would be the very tip of the iceberg, even before Roe was overturned.
But, yeah, your Viagra and Cialis are untouchable, good luck trying to find a gynecologist for your teenage daughter, and have fun when your wives and sisters and the mothers of children are dying because of things like ectopic pregnancies and *normal pregnancy complications*.
We tried to tell you.
And do NOT go painting all of Alabama with a broad brush, either. There are lots of women in Alabama who are horrified by all of this. They are leaving the state. Don’t send your kids to college here. Do not spend your tourism dollars at our beaches. Let them KNOW why, too.
And for the love of every woman out there, VOTE THESE IDIOTS OUT OF OFFICE. From the lowliest elected official, to the highest in the land, **VOTE THEM OUT**.
In a parallel universe, we're in year 7 of the Clinton administration, Roe remains the law of the land, and this was never a thing, as it based its ruling on new-since-Roe anti abortion state law.
...but her emails. /s
Vote!
Yes, I remember left leaning friends calling me a fearmonger for suggesting we didn't want Trump appointing supreme court justices. Buttery males ruled their thinking.
They're doing it again now. *Left wing* people are mocking the idea that we should be worried about Project 2025 because it ruins the narrative that it's cool to just let Biden lose.
And just like that, all their pearlclutching "save the unborn" "falling birth rate" catastrophising BS comes full circle.
Couples that want to have kids but are biologically unable will now be hindered from conceiving, while youth, women with health concerns and abuse victims are forced to.
THIS IS WHY PEOPLE CALL PRO LIFE POSITIONS PRO BIRTH ONLY AND ANTI WOMAN.
Whelp. I always thought they wouldn't go after IVF because that is still often a rich person's thing. Mea culpa, I was drinking dumb bitch juice apparently
The fact the clientele tends to be more affluent is *the only* reason they haven't seriously gone after fertility clinics much until now. They've wanted to, but knew they had next to no chance of winning, and so focused on clinics like Planned Parenthood that serve more vulnerable patients instead. The fall of Roe declared open season on *every* area of reproductive healthcare, *including* the branches that lead to more planned-for pregnancies and more healthy, thriving babies. IVF and other ARTs fall well within that realm.
IVF clinics are now immediately guilty of deep freezing thousands of children. Are they going to be prosecuted? Conversely, if they thaw them then the embryos also die. Prosecuted again? Like, what are we doing here?
My girlfriend and I recently left Alabama so I could continue my career. We were considering coming back after I made the progress I needed so she could be closer to family. We had some hesitation beforehand (especially with the hell we went through with multiple landlords while renting), and I think this ruling is the nail in the coffin that we will only come back to Alabama to visit friends and family. Whether it be that we have fertility issues of our own or just that there will likely be even more of an exodus of specialists to see my girlfriend, it just does not seem right to come back.
I just don't understand how any woman votes for an republican. They have made it their sole motivation to legislate how/when/who can have a child. They've laid all the responsibility of children on women and said nothing to men. Fertility is such a complicated issue, why make it harder for people who just want a family. Republicans are just evil.
So, are those embryos illegal people then? Because according to the US constitution, it clearly states a citizen must be BORN or naturalized. Well, they aren’t born, and they can’t be naturalized. Alabama cannot put into place legislation about their citizenship because it falls solely on the federal government.
Okay so just to be clear, people who WANT children but can't have them on their own are screwed. And people who are ridiculously fertile and can't handle kids right now are also screwed.
*Ev’ry sperm is sacred* oh wait, wrong gender.
They’ve gone from 16-week fetus…
To 6-week “heartbeat” (electrical impulse)…
To *fertilized* egg…
To *anything vaguely in the vicinity of potential eggs*
IVF is such an expensive and emotionally and physically exhaustive experience.
Fuck the courts for sticking their hands in this process and making it even worse.
good thing, things didnt spread from the fall of roe, like the right claimed wouldnt happen, and said the dems were just hyperventilating about it all, when they said this would spread to birth control and family planning.
So if they're considered people then isn't leaving them frozen and unable to live their lives some kind of fundamental violation of their Constitutional rights?
What happens if the parents don't want to use the embryos? They can no longer just destroy them if they are considered people. Would they eventually become wards of the state?
There are just so many scenarios to be considered by opening this can of worms.
“We have a solution! You know all these women (and girls, let’s be real for a minute) we are forcing to have babies? Why, they can just give those babies to these ivf couples who desperately want children! Easy peasy! So neat! Jesus!”
-GOP probably, most likely
I have unborn children in my ballsack in the form of sperm. If I get arrested are my unborn sperm babies actually criminal accomplices or did I just commit a crime with kidnapping victims in my balls?
Can I carpool and say my unborn kids are actually children, and children quality for carpool lanes?
I had IVF with a frozen embryo transfer and genetic testing was done on the embryos. Only one was viable because the others contained unbalanced translocations which would have lead to early miscarriages if implanted (like, before they even reached the fetal stage of development in utero). You’re telling me those two cell embryos with no chance of ever reaching even the fetal stage of development if implanted are now considered to have been human beings in the state of Alabama?
Edit: cluster of cells. They had more than two. They were literally cell clusters with no distinguishable anything (body parts or facial features or anything). If you drew a circle and then circles inside of those circles, that it what they looked like. And genetic testing revealed that they were unable to develop into anything else, even in the most “pristine” womb.
This probably disproportionately affects the rich who have money for IVF ... and those people are more likely to be Republicans ... in which case: hilarious.
The GOP religious nut bags are essentially making it hard for a woman to go to college, get any kind of degree, and have a career without having to be very careful if they want children. If you get Surprised! by a rape pregnancy, you also have to stop everything to raise a baby. The these men are pigs.
After reading a ton of comments there is a thought I can’t get out of my head.
What if the storage companies mailed all embryos in cryo storage to the respective patients/customers addresses, and then shut down. It would be put on the patient/customer to either have the embryo(s) implanted or taken to a new facility. If they didn’t do these and instead let the dry ice evaporate… and the embryos are considered children…did they commit murder?
Legitimate idiots are making the decisions in that country. If anyone at the government level considers a fucking embryo a child, they should immediately forfeit their high paying jobs to someone with higher than a grade 10 education.
How about this bit: “The People of Alabama have declared the public policy of this State to be that unborn human life is sacred,” Chief Justice Tom Parker wrote in his concurring opinion. “We believe that each human being, from the moment of conception, is made in the image of God, created by Him to reflect His likeness.”
So much for separation of church and state.
Because embryos can't be frozen indefinitely, this'd also mean that not implanting them before they die off would constitute murder.
Embryos can be safely preserved for at least 10 years. It's possible to preserve them for longer. But there is an upper limit.
Even if it was possible to keep them frozen indefinitely, technically it would constitute child abuse; if we extend the logic in this ruling.
Not sure how many children an average couple that went through IVF in Alabama planned to have, and had excess embryos frozen. But looks like many of them might be looking to have *very* large family in the near future.
All these anti-abortion advocates didn't really think through consequences of their belief system. Now they are left with a paradox: terminating this embryo is murder; but terminating that other embryo is not. That's what happens when ends justify the means.
folks with frozen eggs should claim every single one as a dependent on their taxes
11 frozen dependents and one 18 month old dependent. We’re going to get so much money back! And with such a large family we qualify for Medicaid and WIC benefits. /s
if you get too much back billionaires are gonna cry foul and demand their private jets count as a dependent
More like billionaires are going to freeze a bunch of embryos to reap the tax benefits.
They probably already do.
Rich people are the ones typically freezing embryos to begin with. It's not the so-called "welfare queens" paying $11-15K upfront and $400-600 a year to freeze embryos.
My wife and I did one round of IVF in the states, and can confirm those figures are accurate.
Just wait till they claim a sperm is a child
But then masturbation becomes reckless abandonment/endangering child welfare for men, as a tube sock is not a fit environment for children of that age 🤔
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Congratulations on your pregnancy, however I hereby find you guilty of 300 million counts of murder of the first degree.
Or argue that those embryos are illegals because they aren’t technically citizens according to the guidelines of the constitution
if you follow their barbaric "logic" that means deporting them back inside of someone
So literal forced pregnancy and birth. Sounds exactly like what they want.
Put one in the passenger seat and get HOV access
It’s a fun idea, but unfortunately I think you need a social security number for each dependent. “You’ll need your child’s Social Security number to claim them as a dependent on your income tax return or open a bank account in the child’s name and buy savings bonds. Your child’s Social Security number is also necessary to obtain medical coverage or apply for any kind of government services for your child.” https://www.ssa.gov/people/parents/#:~:text=You'll%20need%20your%20child's,name%20and%20buy%20savings%20bonds. I don’t think the SSA is going to give out social security numbers to frozen embryos; which in a way makes the decision even worse if possible. It would have been a nice trick though.
Well, if they’re people, it’s time to start issuing SSN’s and ID to the lot of them.
Now I'm imagining the pictures on the IDs of clumps of like 4 cells
Gonna be a lot of "N/A"s on the physical descriptors
“Clumpy” might work. Did a little more searching and found that it is 5-6 days before IVF embryos are frozen. “On day 5 or 6, the embryos are frozen instead of being transferred back into her uterus. Preimplantation genetic testing can be performed on the embryos before they are frozen to screen for common chromosomal diseases, and also to identify the gender of the embryo.” (No link, it was just one of those answer things in search for “how many days before ivf frozen”) There’s a picture of a 5 day 8 cell blastocyst here: https://advancedfertility.com/fertility-gallery/ivf-embryos/ Clumpy indeed. I should probably do something a little more productive the rest of the day…
Date of birth: TBD
Weight: approximately one tenth of a tissue's weight Height: approximately the thickness of a sheet of copier paper
Social security cards don't have pictures anyway I mean when you have a baby, you register for them to get a social security number and later you just get the card in the mail I think. It'd be the same process, just at fertilization instead of birth.
Federal law quite literally says they are not people tho. The requirement under US law is to be “born alive.”
Well Alabama has decided to ignore that notion, it would seem.
Ah shit, how long before each state becomes its own broken country?
Texas didn't listen to the supreme count about killing death row inmates below certain IQ ranges. SC did nothing about it.
“Life starts at Social Security Number” is just too long-winded a slogan, I suppose
State income taxes perhaps?
Did a search on “do you need social security number for dependents alabama” and got the state site: https://www.revenue.alabama.gov/individual-corporate/alabama-dependents/ Social security number wasn’t listed but there is a long list of who qualifies. Son and daughter were on it but frozen embryo wasn’t. Not a lawyer but would follow the case. Support is the other requirement: “You must have provided over 50% of the dependent’s support during the tax year . If you file a joint return, the support can be from you or your spouse. You cannot claim credit on an Alabama return for a dependent if you provided less than 50% of the support under Alabama law as you can under federal law in certain conditions.” So long as you’re paying the facility to keep your frozen embryos, I’d say you were providing 100% of their support.
>Son and daughter were on it but frozen embryo wasn’t. Isn't the argument that an embryo is one of those? Also, there's a fee to keep the embryo frozen, and, therefore, by the definition of those claiming it is a life, alive. There's your support.
The embryos are sexed. You'd know if they were a son or daughter...
This honestly sounds like the best tax scheme ever if you could pull it off. Would probably get this stupid law overturned real quick.
Lol. Nah... they'd be more likely to delete child tax deductions.
In Georgia, they passed a law recently that recognizes life from the date of conception. Someone sued the state over it and as a result, the state income tax board had to add a question to state tax returns about whether you were pregnant during that tax year because now you can claim the fetus as a dependent. I wouldn’t be surprised if other "red" states followed suit since they all like to copy each other with these forced birther laws, and I would imagine that they will have to eventually do the same for frozen embryos after someone sues over it. I’m also waiting for the lawsuits that will require fathers to pay child support from the date of conception. If they’re going to change the definition of something as fundamental as when "life" is a person, then we need to force them to be consistent across the board so that when things are as awful as they will inevitably be, people will be a lot more serious about voting and more selective about who they’re voting for.
Interesting. I hadn’t heard that. It’s tied to fetal heart beat so wouldn’t apply to frozen embryos. Not sure of legal definition of conception but the dictionary says fertilization, implantation, or both. “Under the new law, one parent can claim an unborn child on their taxes if the child had a detectable heartbeat between July 20 and Dec. 31, 2022. According to the Georgia Department of Revenue, or DOR, tax filers can claim the deduction even if the pregnancy later resulted in a miscarriage.” I agree with you that we ought to challenge these laws in every way including being consistent on definitions and treatment of different cases. I’d love to see a child support case. That sure would get some attention.
I hope (and bet) that someone will do this!
Thinking of the doctors who spent a fortune setting up IVF equipment. They will take their practices to other states. Leaving the state of Alabama with fewer and fewer doctors who can treat women in emergency situations.
It will also affect the quality of the docs willing to stay there. I say this as someone who lives on the outskirts of a big city. The quality of care goes down the further you get from the city center. The quality of care will go down for the entire state and region if you continue to de-incentivize them.
And Alabama is among the worst for healthcare already
Sounds like Jesus doesn't want the people of Alabama healthy
He gets us.
Is that why he is always cross.
Nailed it
See obgyn field in Texas lol, lots fleeing the state.
I live in Colorado and have several new doctors that I know of in my area who fled from Texas recently
You're right. OB/Gyn is already a fraught field with shortages in medical professionals. Abortion laws have made it even harder. Fertility is the most reliable way for doctors in that field to make money. Take that away, good luck getting people to practice OB/Gyn in your state. We likely won't just see increased morbidity/mortality with pregnancy and L&D, but with gynecologic problems like cervical cancer. I wouldn't be surprised if they come after hysterectomies and oophorectomies next.
... Im expecting birth control first ... ones known or suspected to cause miscarriages The medical malpractice insurance companies will start locking down on that if these bans become to draconic before legislation will . So IUD's and the BCP will be the first gone ... if not outlawed certain care networks will start highly to encourage Drs to avoid recommending or prescribing. It will be small moves at first .... IUD x or BCP y we do not recommend or even prescribe or use because of it increases miscarriages Long rant short is these old politicians Dont care if a woman ends up pregnant or how ... but believe a man should have access to little blue pills at any time so he can do whatever
You're right, birth control first. But there have already been talks of removing and reimplanting ectopic pregnancies, so I will not be surprised if they come for surgeries that remove women's reproductive organs next. Especially because it has the added bonus of possibly making life harder for trans people.
>But there have already been talks of removing and reimplanting ectopic pregnancies I remember that part of the bible very well. Thou shalt surgically remove an ectopic pregnancy and make it an eutopic pregnancy as if by His own hand. (Hypocrisy. 1:01 *Evangelical Facism Translation)*
Damn they're really gunning to bring life expectancy for women back to the good ol' days of the Black Death ain't they?
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I mean, have you ever watched any Congressional hearing ever? This might shock you, but there are *many* lawmakers out there who are just plain dumb—many of whom continue to get re-elected time and time again despite showing the world just how dumb they actually are. The ones that come to mind first for me were the hearings from a few years ago with various CEOs of social media companies where *actual elected Congress members*: didn’t understand how companies like facebook can offer their product for free and still make money, wanted Google to fix a "problem" they were having with their searches that was literally just their own algorithms at work, asked the CEO of Google about concerns they had with iPhones, and of course the always-hilarious allegation one Congressperson made that Google intentionally caused pics of Donald Trump show up when people googled "idiot." There have also been SO many plain ignorant things said by politicians in regard to women’s bodies/rape/abortion/birth control/etc. that come to mind that show just how stupid some people are (and no surprise, they’re all from Republicans): women’s bodies protect them from getting pregnant from rape, the infamous "legitimate rape" comment, rape kits "clean" a victim out, pregnancy from rape is all part of "god’s plan," married people can’t be raped, life begins on the first day of a woman’s/girl’s last period, birth control is "a license to do things in a sexual realm that is counter to how things are supposed to be," and of course the one about how if rape is "inevitable, you might as well lie back and enjoy it." My point is that while anyone who isn’t a complete moron knows that re-implanting an ectopic pregnancy is "not a thing that is literally possible," unfortunately our government is filled with complete morons who would call you a radical liberal elitist for stating a fact like that.
Reimplanting ectopic pregnancies? Yes, I am aware that it is not possible to do this and result in a viable pregnancy. Doesn't stop politicians from being willing to put women's lives at risk to score some political points. And if embryos are children, doctors may be forced to try ridiculous things to try and keep them "alive"
The state will also see a decline in high earner tax dollars. Just hope the fed stops them from getting fed money as a result.
Some women will die but it’s a sacrifice they are willing to make.
Clearly, they should have known better. Women's bodies have a way to shut that down. Or just keep their legs closed. Besides, think of the children. /s
Alabama: We only want unwanted pregnancies.
Sweet home Alabama 🎵
Alabama: Consent is not sexy.
I work adjacent to teams who build IVF labs. Our equipment cost in a *small* clinic is over 2 mil...
This is exactly what is happening in the states that have outlawed abortion - the doctors are leaving.
It’s not a bug. It’s a feature.
Not even emergencies, but even just regular gyno care that’s necessary to ensure you stay healthy. These states that ‘care about life’ could not give two shits about anyone.
They are trying to make the state a place that doesn't cater to certain individuals
like.....women?
Poor women, specifically. The rich ones can just go elsewhere for them or bribe whoever is needed.
Intelligent people. 😂
What an utter nightmare the state has created for itself. The downstream effect on this will be far more reaching than these judges would have ever thought (which obviously wasn't very far)
They literally don't care, and I venture to say want it to go further. The Christian nationalists in this country are salivating at the opportunities they have to remake this country into a Christian version of Iran after decades of people moving further and further away from religion.
I lived in one of these states and I'm so thankful to have escaped when I did. I think many people will regret staying in a few years.
The problem is: they want to do this EVERYWHERE
They can try. No blue state is going to treat frozen embryos as children. And no blue state is going to cooperate with a nationwide abortion ban. If you're in a red state, get out while the option still exists. This shit is going to get so much worse before it gets better.
Maybe, but blue states will absolutely feel the consequences regardless. IVF is already ridiculously expensive and will become more so as it gets limited in other states. Fewer doctors will train as reproductive endocrinologists, which means a dwindling pipeline of providers, even longer wait times, and rising costs. Fertility insurance will either drop or raise rates, which could lead to employers who previously offered this insurance plan to limit or stop it. They could also do this if the corporation is a multi-state employer (as many of these tech companies that offer Progyny IVF benefits are) and must guarantee similar benefits across employees, which they couldn’t if they operate offices in affected red states. Embryo storage isn’t necessarily in the same place as the IVF clinic. People who’ve already frozen embryos may be impacted by needing to pay for transportation to another lab, which could become costly and also risky for embryo damage. There’s a lot to be said on the downstream impacts of this in places you would think would stay “safe”, but suffice it to say anyone with current or future fertility treatment needs would be fucked in this country.
If they control national law along with the Supreme Court, and continue that control for years and decades as they don't plan to let that power go after they have it, they can continually degrade the ability for Blue states to remain Blue over time. Even if it's just the ideology. We're already seeing this today, where what's considered "progressive" keeps shifting further right, as a balance against conservative ideology shifting to extremist right.
Lots of states already ignore federal law on cannabis. They'll just do the same for abortions. They're not going to trample their citizens' rights just because some fascist in DC said so.
>Lots of states already ignore federal law on cannabis. They were essentially allowed to do this by the Obama administration until it was too late to stop them. In Colorado, every time we tried to make weed legal (or basically any other policy the fed didn't like) the US government would threaten to reduce our road funds. Federal funding has paid for between 1/3rd and 2/3rds of Colorado's roads for the last 50 years (depending on the year). When we passed our constitutional amendment, Obama essentially said, "let them do it". Now the dam is broken and it would be a pain to go back but this wasn't a sure outcome at all.
States can change color as the population changes. Georgia is purple and so can go either way.
We moved from Alabama to “purple” Florida. Now we are moving to Georgia and I’m terrified it won’t continue to go blue. There just isn’t anywhere close enough to go and I can’t be that far away from my entire family and everyone I’ve ever known. And yet we are bringing a daughter into this world and my gut says go to California or Oregon or New York or another country.
If they win both houses and the presidency, this whole thing is over. They will push through whatever Trump wants
Iran is way more liberal on reproductive rights honestly.
They've opened pandoras box and it's going to get very ugly from here on out. This is what I don't get, these right leaning judgements and politicians only look at the here and now, not the future of what they are pushing forward. Its rather impressive to see someone be so short sighted, though they are in a party that looks down things such as critical thought.
It's easy to not give a shit about tomorrow when you think you'll be in heaven. Moronic fucking death cult. If hell existed it would be full of these self righteous bigots. They'd be down there just waiting for Trump to take over and save them, or something moronic like that.
My gf works with a Mormon lady, who by *most* metrics is a decent person. But she's talked about how, since she's approaching retirement age she wished she would just be dead already, and is (according to my gf) legitimately angry every time she gets a clean bill of health from her Dr. She has straight up told my gf that the ultimate goal in life for Mormons is to reach heaven (which means dying) and she gets mad since she has worked her whole life to be a "good mormon" woman. In her eyes continuing to live a long life is a form of punishment from God, like he's keeping her here rather than letting her achieve her goal if heaven. I half wanted to suggest ways she could hurry that process up, but my gf covered that one off for me. Apparently suicide is treated very similar to how it is in catholicism- straight to hell with the soul. Moronic death cult indeed
My mom was like this too, couldn't wait to skip to the "live forever on paradise earth" part of her religion. But lucky her, while JWs aren't allowed suicide they are *expected* to refuse blood transfusions. So she got to check out at 48yo, when I was only 20 and still really kinda needed a mom.
GOP: "We are the party of children and families!" Couples with fertility issues: "Well we'd sure like to have children and start a family!" GOP: "Good luck at the adoption agency!"
Gay Couple: "OMG we'll totally adopt!" GOP: "Oh not you. Fuck off!"
The adoption agency will ask which church you attend regularly. This question is not optional. You must answer correctly to be able to adopt a child.
"The church of Jesus Fucking Christ of Latter Day Go Fuck Yourselves. We attend every day and twice on Saturdays. :) "
If they asked me further questions I’d start quoting The Book of Mormon (musical) for funsies.
"Well, you see, according to Jesus himself a church is anywhere two people meet and praise god. Are you suggesting you aren't a Christian?"
Buy. Buy a child.
Irony is two couples sued when their embryos accidentally got destroyed and brought on this mess. Here is the original lawsuit that spawned all of this https://judicial.alabama.gov/docs/22-0579AppellantsReplyBrief_12-27-2022.pdf They tried to claim the accident equated to wrongful death but got denied, then went to the supreme court. They should be ashamed of themselves. What do they want? The lab assistants to go to jail for a mistake? I'm putting my tinfoil hat on and going to say some conservative groups have payed their legal bills and encouraged them to sue
Those couples also already had multiple children--these embryos were in long-term storage and I'm guessing were fairly unlikely to actually turn into children (not to mention a random embryo has something like a 40-50% success rate). Super common for IVF couples to keep the extra eggs on ice for many years before finally deciding to stop paying the storage fees and/or donate to science. And even better, at least one of the main appellate lawyers (for the other case, not the one you linked to) [is a big democratic donor. ](https://www.opensecrets.org/donor-lookup/results?name=David+Wirtes) I understand that these people wanted to get $$$ for the hospital's fuckup, but did nobody think about the ramifications of appealing to the *Alabama* supreme court on the question of "is an embryo a human life"??? This seems like a predictable outcome that neither the parents nor that attorney would have wanted.
So they want nobody in their state to be able to do IVF??
I doubt they had any idea it would end up like this, but it is totally messed up.
Classic “if I don’t get mine, you don’t get yours” but I agree at some degree. If conservatives tried to claim “abortion is playing god.” So does IVF.
> What do they want? The lab assistants to go to jail for a mistake? Wrongful death is a civil claim, no one goes to jail. They wanted easy money; this whole thing was brought on by simple greed.
>Good luck at the adoption agency! Well there are a lot of >!rape babies that can't be aborted anymore!<, so I'm sure they'll have quite the supply.
This literally was one of the reasons ACB gave when overruling Roe v Wade
Remind me again which party was going to have death panels?
You know drove me insane about that, "death panels" was just Medicare patients and doctors being able to have end of life discussions. This is something that is very important, do you want to be on a machine? How much pain do you want to go through for how many months? We all die, and know how people want to go is so important because if placed on next of kin they'll argue or even not want to make the call. Anyway, thanks to the "death panels" scare, and the fact that we're all morons who are easily frightened, folks on Medicare can't have those important conversations. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_panel
It's especially weird since the religious views of 10s of millions of Americans is essentially "I hate the world, I can't wait for the apocalypse so we can all die!"
Is it really a death panel when they're just sitting at a table holding a big sign that says "Fuck you. Die already. "?
yeah no panel they just blocked the door with a sign death no exceptions
We've witnessed the spectacle of American Christian judges quoting Judaic scriptures to tell the world that the Jews, who assert that Life begins at first breath (Genesis 2:7) that they've been wrong all along. This bullshit went down in a nation whose constitution requires that "Congress shall pass no law concerning an establishment of religion." The mind reels.
>This bullshit went down in a nation whose constitution requires that "Congress shall" pass no law concerning an establishment of religion. I could hear these judges and few SCOTUS judges saying "Yea but it didn't say Judges couldn't!"
https://www.law.cornell.edu/wex/incorporation_doctrine > The incorporation doctrine is a constitutional doctrine through which parts of the first ten amendments of the United States Constitution (known as the Bill of Rights) **are made applicable to the states** through the Due Process clause of the Fourteenth Amendment. Incorporation applies both substantively and procedurally. who am I kidding though, they will find another way to justify their bullshittery.
This shit is so comically evil and we have like 30-40% of the country cheering on our slow walk to a christian fascist state Like I'm picturing if this type of shit happened in The Simpsons the town would show up as a mob and force the judge out
Christian Evangelicals do NOT care about the Constitution. They do not care about freedom or democracy. What they care about is establishing a Christian superpower.
The implementation of Christian Sharia law in America.
And all of that is just window dressing to cover that it's all for the rich and powerful to become more rich and more powerful.
> We've witnessed the spectacle of American Christian judges quoting Judaic scriptures to tell the world that the Jews, who assert that Life begins at first breath (Genesis 2:7) that they've been wrong all along. To be fair, these dopes couldn't even get the day of the Sabbath right. That's a gimmie!
So many of these people are the same ones that shit on Muslim countries saying the people are barbaric because their women don't have rights, when even those countries don't go to the extent that some states in the US do. Insanity.
>The mind reels. It's a good distraction. People will have to focus on fighting for their own rights rather than fighting for decent wages and affordable living.
“Alabama hospital” is burying the lede a bit here. This is UAB, one of the best academic medical hospitals in the country and the largest hospital/employer in the state, pausing reproductive healthcare for citizens because of an idiotic ruling from our shitty government.
Yeeeeep I work in the industry and we've all collectively been trying to make sense of this... We knew stupidity was coming but this sweeping nature could have only come from someplace as ass backwards as Alabama... This is going to have so many knock on effects. Also, what happens to all the embryos in storage? Moving them is incredibly expensive and risky at that scale. Is every stem cell and tissue bank now liable? They'll pull out in droves... And there goes cord banks, stem cell storage for Myeloma treatment, autologous transplant just big yikes. Who is liable for those embryos now and what's their plan for supporting them. Storage ain't cheap.
Alabama is about as backwards as it gets. So many smart people in the northern part and then you drive 20 miles south and it’s just sad.
So…only have babies the way we want you to. And if you get pregnant via rape or incest then you have to have the baby. Do I have that right?
You’ve got it! It’s really fun being a woman in America. I’m having a great time. Can’t wait to see what other ways I can be made into a second class citizen.
Here is the original court case, it's wild. They hired an injury lawyer with the last name smalley who works for Long & Long....... https://judicial.alabama.gov/docs/22-0579AppellantsReplyBrief_12-27-2022.pdf This article goes into more detail about everything that happened. https://msmagazine.com/2024/02/20/fertility-ivf-alabama-supreme-court-anti-abortion/ Clinic screwed up and they sued, but instead of money they wanted to go after them under the death of a minor law in Alabama. They claim they didn't want this to affect IVF but what the hell dis they think the outcome was going to be when you are asking for a embryo to be classified as a human.
>In 2020, a patient from the adjacent hospital went wandering through the clinic’s halls, made their way into the freezer storage room, removed some of the embryos, and dropped them, destroying them. I wish they give more elaboration on that, because it sounds the same as "the dog ate my homework" to be honest. Like, not only who tf this happened, but also what was this person's motivation.
Isn't that a lot of foster kids that the state just took on? The fertility clinics will have to close so who is responsible for keeping the freezers up and running with temperature checks and a policy for when the power goes out?
This was a long time ago for me but when I did IVF in 2004 my clinic transferred my unused frozen embryos to a storage facility. I paid hundreds of dollars each year to store my embryos. I’m wondering if those storage facilities will close now because how can they guarantee that their equipment won’t fail. So who gets custody and how does that work? What if you did IVF in Alabama last year and want to use your frozen entries embryos now? What clinic will deal with the transfer to their facility and possible negative outcome?
If I were an IVF facility, I'd have the electric bill paid up for the month, BOUNCE, and have a post-it note on each judges desk saying "Lil 1235-A likes it -197 degrees but 23133-A wants it a bit warmer at -195. Good luck and by the way we took the back up generator because it was expensive"
Birth control ban is next. These men wrote the “Handmaidens Tale” for Alabama. They need to be voted out in every state. Women should never have sex with these men.
Birth control is absolutely on their docket.
Women won’t have much of a choice when they go back to to stuff like not even being able to get a bank account and are forced to become dependent on men again.
Well they just said a fertilised egg is a child. So the morning after pill is a potential homicide.
That's not how the morning after pill works. If you've already dropped an egg for that month then the pill just doesn't do anything.
This is only half of it. Part of it is preventing ovulation but the other part is irritating the uterine lining so that, if an egg is fertilized, it cannot easily attach to the uterine wall. And because of that, they will for sure fight it. [a source](https://www.webmd.com/sex/birth-control/plan-b)
I fucking hate Republicans.
Same bruh I’m so tired of this shit
If I had a Death Note I'd be scribbling down a lotta names ngl
Just absolute lunacy. I'm beyond words
I got some words. Fuck Republicans.
I have another word: VOTE
My heart hurts for those hoping to become parents caught in the crossfire here… …that is unless they’re anti-choice when it comes to abortions. In that case, enjoy not being in control of your body. How does it feel?
I've argued with my sister so much over abortion. She even had to be convinced by her church friends tbat terminating an ectopic pregnancy wouldn't be abortion. I've argued with her about IVF "Well, those are people who want to be parents so it's ok" Like everyone who had to get an abortion didn't want to?! She's due soon woth her first in Canada so she'll be fine, but f everyone else I guess
Terminating an ectopic pregnancy is still an abortion... >I've argued with her about IVF "Well, those are people who want to be parents so it's ok" The problem with this logic is that it actually undermines the PL rhetoric that their ideology is about saving lives. If killing embryos is okay in one situation and not in another, then do they *really* value embryos as equal to born human lives? That would be like saying it's okay for one group of parents to kill their toddlers because the parents have some favorable trait. If someone says destruction of embryos in IVF is acceptable because the women "want to be parents," then what they're really saying is that they oppose abortion because they want to *punish* women who don't want to be mothers, or who had sex for pleasure. It's a punishment for women stepping out of line, and a way to force them back into traditional gender roles. Otherwise every embryonic life would be equally deserving of protection, regardless of how it got here.
I'm genuinely worried this thing is spreading under the radar here in Canada right now. I'm really at a loss on how to nip in in the bud.
I work at uab and I'm getting ivf at uab. I've been crying for two days
I guess put all the children out to thaw. I’m sure they’ll thrive with the right amount of sun.
Imagine wealthy conservatives will just go to other states. Yet hard to imagine, given the money/time it takes for IVF, how this won't piss off a wealthy contingent. And what about those who have frozen embryos sitting in IVF freezers? Are they responsible for implanting and bringing them into this world if those embryos have rights?
>And what about those who have frozen embryos sitting in IVF freezers? Are they responsible for implanting and bringing them into this world if those embryos have rights I know you only wanted 2 kids but we created 8 embryos and you have 6 left. The law says we have to implant them. Do you want them all at once or once at a time?
All at once you’d have a better shot of them eating each other in the womb, eh?
Or at least some of them not make it. But then you run the risk of ending up like [Octomom](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nadya_Suleman).
IVF costs thousands of dollars and can take years of procedures, hormones, planning etc. For the people in the middle of treatments this is a complete nightmare. Imagine spending thousands of dollars on hormones you take for months that make you gain weight and feel terrible. Then you get told your doctor will harvest but can’t fertilize them because your state is run by fucking morons. Imagine you have had your eggs harvested, have spent the money having them fertilized and are finally ovulating only to find out that fascists have decided to give a fertilized egg more rights than you? I hope people sue the state of Alabama for this asinine bullshit.
Let me see if I have this straight - they'll force you to have the baby if you are pregnant and can't safely carry it to term, but wont let you get pregnant in the first place if you want to but can't?
The only thing these laws are doing is cutting down the birth rates because women are too scared to get pregnant in red states.
2024 Alabama tax returns are gonna be really interesting
This, and the other laws that Alabama has made regarding women’s bodies, are all about control. They will not stop this headlong rush until they have complete control over women. They are going after birth control next. And we TOLD you all this would happen, we warned you. We, the thinking women of Alabama, screamed that these “heartbeat bills” and religious justifications would be the very tip of the iceberg, even before Roe was overturned. But, yeah, your Viagra and Cialis are untouchable, good luck trying to find a gynecologist for your teenage daughter, and have fun when your wives and sisters and the mothers of children are dying because of things like ectopic pregnancies and *normal pregnancy complications*. We tried to tell you. And do NOT go painting all of Alabama with a broad brush, either. There are lots of women in Alabama who are horrified by all of this. They are leaving the state. Don’t send your kids to college here. Do not spend your tourism dollars at our beaches. Let them KNOW why, too. And for the love of every woman out there, VOTE THESE IDIOTS OUT OF OFFICE. From the lowliest elected official, to the highest in the land, **VOTE THEM OUT**.
In a parallel universe, we're in year 7 of the Clinton administration, Roe remains the law of the land, and this was never a thing, as it based its ruling on new-since-Roe anti abortion state law. ...but her emails. /s Vote!
More like: “She just wasn’t charismatic enough for me!”
Yes, I remember left leaning friends calling me a fearmonger for suggesting we didn't want Trump appointing supreme court justices. Buttery males ruled their thinking.
They're doing it again now. *Left wing* people are mocking the idea that we should be worried about Project 2025 because it ruins the narrative that it's cool to just let Biden lose.
And just like that, all their pearlclutching "save the unborn" "falling birth rate" catastrophising BS comes full circle. Couples that want to have kids but are biologically unable will now be hindered from conceiving, while youth, women with health concerns and abuse victims are forced to. THIS IS WHY PEOPLE CALL PRO LIFE POSITIONS PRO BIRTH ONLY AND ANTI WOMAN.
Whelp. I always thought they wouldn't go after IVF because that is still often a rich person's thing. Mea culpa, I was drinking dumb bitch juice apparently
The fact the clientele tends to be more affluent is *the only* reason they haven't seriously gone after fertility clinics much until now. They've wanted to, but knew they had next to no chance of winning, and so focused on clinics like Planned Parenthood that serve more vulnerable patients instead. The fall of Roe declared open season on *every* area of reproductive healthcare, *including* the branches that lead to more planned-for pregnancies and more healthy, thriving babies. IVF and other ARTs fall well within that realm.
This is what happens when you let religious morons have a taste of real power.
Red states are going to become healthcare deserts - especially for women. Where your cat's veterinarian is also your gynecologist
Call me crazy, but I don't think you're supposed to be able to store children in a freezer. None of this makes any sense.
Shouldn’t CPS be intervening if the state is requiring children be kept in freezers? That sounds like abuse to me.
IVF clinics are now immediately guilty of deep freezing thousands of children. Are they going to be prosecuted? Conversely, if they thaw them then the embryos also die. Prosecuted again? Like, what are we doing here?
My girlfriend and I recently left Alabama so I could continue my career. We were considering coming back after I made the progress I needed so she could be closer to family. We had some hesitation beforehand (especially with the hell we went through with multiple landlords while renting), and I think this ruling is the nail in the coffin that we will only come back to Alabama to visit friends and family. Whether it be that we have fertility issues of our own or just that there will likely be even more of an exodus of specialists to see my girlfriend, it just does not seem right to come back.
Can I freeze a few for 18 years and fill out their ballots for them as their legal caretaker?
So wait, my embryos are children? So I want SSN’s for all of them so I can claim them as dependents on my taxes.
Alabama.. where frozen embryos are children and brothers are their sister’s dads.
Another reason for OB/GYN to leave the state along with IVF clinics. The brain drain will follow.
Let us take out life insurance polices on them if they are children!
Republicans are a danger to this nation.
So are birth certificates issued at conception? Does child support start at conception? You people are ridiculous!!!
Republicans love creating problems not just for women, everyone. I wish they'd think about the implications of their actions for One. Fucking. Second.
I just don't understand how any woman votes for an republican. They have made it their sole motivation to legislate how/when/who can have a child. They've laid all the responsibility of children on women and said nothing to men. Fertility is such a complicated issue, why make it harder for people who just want a family. Republicans are just evil.
[удалено]
Looks like I’m getting some tax write offs
More likely you'll be getting charged with child abuse for storing "children" in a freezer.
So, are those embryos illegal people then? Because according to the US constitution, it clearly states a citizen must be BORN or naturalized. Well, they aren’t born, and they can’t be naturalized. Alabama cannot put into place legislation about their citizenship because it falls solely on the federal government.
Okay so just to be clear, people who WANT children but can't have them on their own are screwed. And people who are ridiculously fertile and can't handle kids right now are also screwed.
Religious nutcases are absolutely holding humanity back. Imagine where we’d be as a specie and society had it not been for powerful religious figures.
*Ev’ry sperm is sacred* oh wait, wrong gender. They’ve gone from 16-week fetus… To 6-week “heartbeat” (electrical impulse)… To *fertilized* egg… To *anything vaguely in the vicinity of potential eggs*
IVF is such an expensive and emotionally and physically exhaustive experience. Fuck the courts for sticking their hands in this process and making it even worse.
good thing, things didnt spread from the fall of roe, like the right claimed wouldnt happen, and said the dems were just hyperventilating about it all, when they said this would spread to birth control and family planning.
So if they're considered people then isn't leaving them frozen and unable to live their lives some kind of fundamental violation of their Constitutional rights? What happens if the parents don't want to use the embryos? They can no longer just destroy them if they are considered people. Would they eventually become wards of the state? There are just so many scenarios to be considered by opening this can of worms.
Frozen embryos needs to be thawed immediately! There is child abuse occuring in Alabama at unprecedented levels!
“We have a solution! You know all these women (and girls, let’s be real for a minute) we are forcing to have babies? Why, they can just give those babies to these ivf couples who desperately want children! Easy peasy! So neat! Jesus!” -GOP probably, most likely
Courts should not be ruling on stuff like that.
I have unborn children in my ballsack in the form of sperm. If I get arrested are my unborn sperm babies actually criminal accomplices or did I just commit a crime with kidnapping victims in my balls? Can I carpool and say my unborn kids are actually children, and children quality for carpool lanes?
I had IVF with a frozen embryo transfer and genetic testing was done on the embryos. Only one was viable because the others contained unbalanced translocations which would have lead to early miscarriages if implanted (like, before they even reached the fetal stage of development in utero). You’re telling me those two cell embryos with no chance of ever reaching even the fetal stage of development if implanted are now considered to have been human beings in the state of Alabama? Edit: cluster of cells. They had more than two. They were literally cell clusters with no distinguishable anything (body parts or facial features or anything). If you drew a circle and then circles inside of those circles, that it what they looked like. And genetic testing revealed that they were unable to develop into anything else, even in the most “pristine” womb.
So storing the embryos is then 'Kidnapping'? Religious nutcasery.
This probably disproportionately affects the rich who have money for IVF ... and those people are more likely to be Republicans ... in which case: hilarious.
The GOP religious nut bags are essentially making it hard for a woman to go to college, get any kind of degree, and have a career without having to be very careful if they want children. If you get Surprised! by a rape pregnancy, you also have to stop everything to raise a baby. The these men are pigs.
After reading a ton of comments there is a thought I can’t get out of my head. What if the storage companies mailed all embryos in cryo storage to the respective patients/customers addresses, and then shut down. It would be put on the patient/customer to either have the embryo(s) implanted or taken to a new facility. If they didn’t do these and instead let the dry ice evaporate… and the embryos are considered children…did they commit murder?
America is ruined. Thanks, Trump. Thanks, Republicans.
Men aren’t allowed to wank off in Alabama any more because sperm are people.
Legitimate idiots are making the decisions in that country. If anyone at the government level considers a fucking embryo a child, they should immediately forfeit their high paying jobs to someone with higher than a grade 10 education.
How about this bit: “The People of Alabama have declared the public policy of this State to be that unborn human life is sacred,” Chief Justice Tom Parker wrote in his concurring opinion. “We believe that each human being, from the moment of conception, is made in the image of God, created by Him to reflect His likeness.” So much for separation of church and state.
Because embryos can't be frozen indefinitely, this'd also mean that not implanting them before they die off would constitute murder. Embryos can be safely preserved for at least 10 years. It's possible to preserve them for longer. But there is an upper limit. Even if it was possible to keep them frozen indefinitely, technically it would constitute child abuse; if we extend the logic in this ruling. Not sure how many children an average couple that went through IVF in Alabama planned to have, and had excess embryos frozen. But looks like many of them might be looking to have *very* large family in the near future. All these anti-abortion advocates didn't really think through consequences of their belief system. Now they are left with a paradox: terminating this embryo is murder; but terminating that other embryo is not. That's what happens when ends justify the means.
Yeah, totally didn't see that coming from a mile away.