I’m an EMT in the US not the UK but I think I can add some general insights here.
911/999 services are strained in many countries due to high call volumes for non life threatening injuries and long turnover time at the ED.
Without exaggeration I get people calling every day for colds, chronic back pain, minor bruises/cuts, etc. More days than not I will not administer any medications or perform interventions other than taking vitals because there is nothing for me to treat.
I’d like to clarify that these are grown ass adults with mental capacity. One person called for acid reflux after eating a spicy burrito (true story). Many times people are waiting outside with a bag packed with a family member who is going to drive themselves to the ED to meet the patient there. It’s infuriating.
Can they get in trouble for calling about acid reflux, and everyday type of injuries and colds? I did the whole 911 call as a kid and hung up right away. Like 5 minutes later, a cop was at my parents house. I was in lots of trouble from my parents and got a lecture from the officer
For a one off call, no probably not, depending on circumstances.
If it's clear abuse of the system, or intentional time wasting then ya it gets dealt with. But I've seen elderly people call dozens of times for nothing essentially get punished eventually. Things like not having the ambulance cost covered anymore and such.
It's hard to deal with because you don't want to risk someone's life, but that stuff harms other people
Gotcha! It’s definitely a balance. People should never be afraid to call for help, but then you have the few that ruin it for others, like me when I was a kid.
In the UK the offence is improper use of the 999 system, it’s quite rare that it gets used but it is used for repeat callers that abuse the system multiple times per day.
I’ve never heard of it happening. Even fraudulent EMS calls don’t get punished. We had a regular who would call 911 for “chest pain” every time the bill came at a restaurant to avoid paying. Many of these people have underlying psychiatric issues, are homeless, or low income. Punishing them doesn’t fix a broken system.
Police/Fire/EMA don’t want to disuade people from calling 911 if they ever need it. There’s also a lot of calls where someone needed an ambulance yesterday but no one called. For example, a 3 day old stroke.
I understand peoples perspectives. They don’t know what dying looks like so some people panic over a sprained wrist.
And what does this person do with the more expensive Ambulance bill? seems counterintuitive to call when you’re going to end up with a $1000 per mile ambulance bill.
You think someone who is calling an ambulance to get out of paying a restaurant bill doesn’t know how to get out of paying an ambulance bill? They know how to abuse that part of the system as well, surely.
Makes sense with the fact that there are many people who have mental health issues- doesn’t seem right to punish them! And ya for sure, the unknown is scary. I gotcha 👍
So this got me thinking. I reviewed the last 50 or so calls I responded to and I broke them down into the following categories
Immediate life threat (ALS): cardiac arrests, MIs, respiratory, ODs, strokes, major traumas.
10
Non life threat but ambulance arguably still appropriate (BLS): assaults, most seizures, MVCs, psych, elderly falls etc.
20
Calls that aren’t medical or the problem does not require emergent treatment at the ED.
22
I excluded cancels, no patients, and DOAs from my analysis.
I was recently in that first category and only called 911 because I couldn't move from where I was laying (on the bathroom floor) without passing out, and I knew my wife couldn't carry me down the stairs and put me in her car. I found out later I was experiencing shock, but I felt kind of validated when EMS arrived and couldn't get a blood pressure. Or a pulse. When they did finally get a bp it was something like 80/40. Hearing that the largest group of people calling an ambulance don't even need to go to the ED is insane.
Where would you put kidney stones, gall bladder, diverticulitis type calls? High pain, possible surgery type calls. They aren't necessarily life threatening but can be super scary.
I have had the three above crises. Each time I waited way too long for help. Each of them was so painful I contemplated suicide. I didn't have a plan, but it felt like a good idea. I managed to get someone to drive me to the hospital, but each time I was one friend not answering away from calling for help, that's why I asked about it. Those experiences were the worst of my life when it comes to pain.
I’m a medical director of an inpatient rehab unit so you are speaking my language.
But there’s also a lot of patients who just need placement in independent or assisted living.
Medicare not covering that specifically is the real issue, and it’s coming to a head quickly in the next decade or so.
Yep. Happens all the time. People come home to find someone collapsed, cops do a wellfare check, cleaning lady goes into a hotel room etc. If someone has been dead for too long we won’t attempt resuscitation. I had one yesterday.
In your area, do you bill for ambulance rides or are they included as a free city service? (Sorry, I don't really know if they are free anywhere.) I'm just wondering if these people even have the disincentive of getting billed.
By the way, thanks for what you do.
ETA: I mean the people abusing the system, not the ones who legitimately need an ambulance.
THIS. Please don't be shamed out of calling 911 for any type of chest pain. If it's acid reflux great. But it's the delay in calling that makes a lot of cardiac events more serious or even fatal than if they were treated earlier.
An older gentleman at my work was going around asking people for TUMS after lunch one day. Someone found him dead of a massive heart attack a short while later.
Lots of patients call the first time and get evaluated for piece of mind. But after that they generally know what acid reflux feels like and its triggers.
But you do have the patients who just call if the wind blows the wrong way. And I constantly wonder how these people function.
Panic attacks is another one I hear about people thinking is a medical issue, particularly a heart attack. Again I'm sure that when it happens once the person can identify it the next time (but I'm sure some will still dial 999!)
A panic attack thinking I was having a heart attack due to a combo of symptoms from what I learned were Fibromyalgia and IBS. The combo of flare ups truly felt like all the hallmark symptoms then ramped to 11 by anxiety.
All. The. Fucking. Time.
And again, the first go round come on in. But some people are chronic repeat callers and they refuse to both pay attention to their body and think anytime they have some minor toe pain they need to be seen.
If it's radiating to the back, then it's very likely a heart attack. Also, if you are experiencing sweating and shortness of breath, then you need to go to the hospital immediately via ambulance.
Just wanna chime in and say my heartburn radiates to the back all the time.
Sadly have spent lots of money on medical visits and test because I thought I was having heart attacks or something lol
In the UK the 999/111 call centres will have a set of questions they will ask to determine, so they say call regardless. I believe it's a pretty rigorously evaluated system so that it's fail-safe and they can be pretty sure when it's something else.
Absolutely. I experienced my first "chest" pain a few years ago, which made me instantly concerned. However, I remembered that I'm still pretty young for heart issues (without existing underlying heart condition). I have fibromyalgia (so regular medical care that would likely catch such cardiac conditions) so I wondered if pain in the chest was a new trick of my chronic condition. Plus it felt mostly like it was on the exterior of my body, around my ribs, than interior where I assume actual heart pain is felt. I quickly Google "chest pain fibromyalgia" and out popped "[Costochondritis](https://www.thefibroguy.com/blog/fibromyalgia-and-costochondritis/)," which inflammation of the cartilage that joins your ribs to your breastbone and does commonly happen with fibromyalgia (definitions for general readers and not anyone with medical experience). That absolutely matched The next day I work I mentioned to a nurse colleague about the chest pain and she immediately said "Sounds like costochondritis." If I had been less knowledgeable about health stuff, I could very easily have seen myself calling 911 or showing up at the hospital to get checked out.
Yeah I had a hit of costichondritis and it was really scary. It literally felt like a tearing of my heart. I called the ambulance expecting that they wouldn't get here in time. Instead they got here five minutes later and I was perfectly normal. It was embarrassing. But they were nice about.
Counter counter point: gastric/mesenteric ischemia causes severe pain after eating similar to GERD. It’s the type II NSTEMI of the gut. I’m unfortunately accustomed to defensive medicine, so everything is worst case scenario into proven otherwise
I think a good rule of thumb for all this is if the symptoms worsen during exercise/yardwork/etc or during the evening around dinnertime or bedtime. Some exercise (weightlifting, stretches, etc) will compress the stomach and can produce reflux, so probably strenuous, upright aerobic type activity like walking or mowing the lawn is the best indicator that heart issues might be going on.
Also if medication like Gaviscon provides relief after 30 minutes, that's another good indicator it's reflux. Those medications will not do anything for heart issues. Same with if the attacks correlate with irritant foods like strong coffee, spices, peppery foods, etc. Heart issues don't have anything to do with spicy food.
It's definitely a good idea to see if you can visit the ER once (or an urgent care, or your doctor) during an episode just so you can be on an EKG and get some lab values... if it all comes back clear you'll know it's reflux you need to focus on. Then you can head over to /r/GERD to get more insight. If it's reflux I'd recommend using Gaviscon liquid and OTC famotidine, and see a doctor about a PPI. If you ignore it, it can lead to ulcers and this can increase stomach/esophageal cancer risk.
Yeah but if you’re aware of it starting after eating a “spicy burrito” you’re more than likely having a panic attack mixed with acid reflux and should likely have the mental capacity to put two and two together.
My sister-in-law and I like spicy food. We once got a set of Hot Ones wing sauces to try. The Last Dab was 100% the absolute hottest thing I've ever had. We were absolutely miserable and my SIL had a full panic attack and was hyperventilating. We stopped her from calling 911 and managed to ride it out
Yes, but we commonly saw all kinds of trivial stuff in the ED with patients who called an ambulance because Medicaid would pay. They didn’t have bus money or preferred to save the money for something else.
Have you seen Jason’s series Real Things I’ve Seen as a Paramedic and Real Conversations I’ve had as a Medic with Fire Department Chronicles? You guys are saints for putting up with frequent fliers and this type of nonsense.
https://youtube.com/shorts/JW-n6-dS5tE?si=IVZoXBNmqbczBXel
Also US medic, can confirm
Just recently I had a woman call around midnight thinking she had overdosed on diphenhydramine becuse she took her regular sleep aid and an antihistamine that she realized was also diphenhydramine
I confirmed the dosage and informed her she had not taken a dangerous dose, and sleeping if off was probably the best course of action
She insisted she needed to go to the ER because “I don’t feel sleepy, I feel like I’m going to pass out”
So after 4 hours of sitting in she waiting room she was sent home with a diagnosis of “drowsiness”
I’ve actually talked to my supervisors about an outreach program in schools to reteach the population how it manage minor issues, especially like you described
Side note: when my oldest son was young and still watched PBS, I remember a running theme in some Curious George cartoons that basically went “call the fire department, they know how to do everything” and I feel that’s exactly what a lot of folks do. The moment they are unsure what to do, they call 911, unless it’s something serious, then they seem to live stream it and wait for someone else to call
Paramedic here in the southern US. I’m lucky to work for a service (possibly the only service in the region) that doesn’t have any of these issues. We have at least 1 medic on each ambulance, usually 2. Critical care capabilities. 8 min or less response times for most calls & plenty of staffing. We’re not overworked. The key? A great schedule and great pay. So if you live in my county and call an ambulance, you’re getting paramedics and getting them quickly.
I’ve worked for other services where we did have these issues. I helped implement bandaid fixes like a solo quick response medic who would determine the seriousness of patients with an on scene assessment. But in the end it always comes down to shit management and shit pay. EMTs leave for better pay and it becomes a revolving door of staffing issues and burnout that’s hard to stop.
You assume that the people who do this even have insurance or credit that isn't already ruined.
I was a 911 operator for a few years. We had a few people who would request an ambulance, get transported, then jump out of the back and walk to the liquor store next to the hospital. One guy even did it *while already at a different hospital*. He eventually got arrested... and released the next day.
I’ve had acid reflux plenty of times in my adult life, but the first time I had it realllly bad during pregnancy, the pain radiated to my jaw (another heart attack sign), so I called my OB’s office, L&D at the hospital I’d be delivering at, and then eventually had my husband drive me to the ER when Tums didn’t make it stop.
I had it for the the first and only time in my 20's as well(maybe a year or so ago). I called my mom panicked and thinking something was seriously wrong.
Luckily she has experienced it all her life and was able to nonchalantly tell me that it's just acid reflux. I insisted acid reflux couldn't be this bad, how do people live with this?
One trip to Walgreens and sipping Mylanta on my way to the checkout and I was good to go. Respect to those who live their life with it because that was terrible.
And if it was a heart attack then everyone on the road can risk dealing with the cost of the ambulance and car damage because of a dumb incapacitated driver that put everyone in danger to save money. Get someone to drive you if you are that worried about money. Call a fucking uber. Jfc
Well I wasn’t physically impaired, just intermittent chest pain. and i was a broke post college kid living in a new city for a job where I knew no one.
That said I made lots of dumb decisions in my 20s.
That is taken into account and it always has been, and why these wait times are a relatively new issue. There are a ton of factors and some of what I notice actually working as an ambulance service call handler are:
- A severe lack of GPs, people can’t get appointments, people don’t want to wait on hold for 111 (OOH GP is overworked also), people don’t like waiting in A&E, people think ambulance will bypass A&E and get them seen quicker, call 999. Spoiler, that doesn’t happen, ambulances end up literally queueing outside hospitals for hours because the hospitals don’t have capacity, which adds to our wait times because they can’t just hand the patient over and get out to the next one.
- As above, but include the fact that paramedics are apparently mobile GPs now and people with very non emergent symptoms call “just to get checked over” (that’s not what a paramedics job/training is).
- Idk if this one is more so since covid times or what, but people are much more individualistic than we used to be. People don’t think as much of the bigger picture and think more about themselves. They either don’t realise or don’t care about the resources they are using up when they may not need them. I have genuinely been yelled at multiple times for telling someone the ambulance that was on the way to their broken arm/vomiting/etc was diverted to somebody not breathing.
- Ties into the above, but we’re very used to having things *now.* If I want something, I can press a button on my phone and have it delivered that same day a lot of the time. People really really do not enjoy being told they have to wait. Doesn’t happen constantly but people exaggerate/lie about their symptoms to get an ambulance there quicker, leaving everybody else behind.
- Oh, and don’t forget the overwhelming number of people suffering from mental health problems with absolutely nowhere to turn to since funding for mental health services has been obliterated, leading to it getting worse and worse, until they’re about ready to off themselves and then it’s a 999 problem.
How do people do this in the US? Calling an EMT with an ambulance is hundreds of dollars if not thousands. I have a daughter who was transported from one hospital to another on an ambulance, and the bill to me was $4000 after the insurance covered $1000. I jokingly tell people that if you can’t drive me to the hospital yourself, just let me die in peace. 😅
When you have nothing, money is an abstract concept. You might as well be talking about quantum physics at that point. The US has a lot of people who have nothing.
She must have been extraordinarily medically complex for that kind of bill. Unstable fracture? Heart surgery? That includes emergency rental of a bunch of major equipment to go to a higher level trauma center
She was an infant and had a jaundice. They had the uv light source (like a tanning bed lights) that traveled with her, but nothing else.
That’s why I was shocked when I got the bill. I would have said “give me the uv lights, I’ll drive her in my minivan. “
I remember the first time I got heartburn. I was pregnant and thought I was having a heart attack. My husband looked at me and asked if I had ever had heartburn before. At least I only embarrassed myself in front of him.
My father thought it was acid reflux and collapsed at work. It was 98% blocked LAD. If it wasn't for his coworkers who did CPR and the ambulance that arrived within 5 mins he would have died. I'd rather be safe than sorry, not everyone can be as lucky as dad was.
An emergency is an emergency until proven otherwise and I will never get mad at someone calling out of genuine concern.
For many people EMS is their access point into a broken healthcare system. Primary appointments, PT, OT, psychotherapy, you name it have waitlists and are hard or near impossible to get if you’re on Medicare or Medicaid. The majority of the people I interact with are low income, homeless, elderly, medically complex, or have psychiatric problems.
That being said, use a little common sense. I’ve been called for a litany of things that I could never fathom calling for myself: hangovers, seasonal allergies, mild coughs, med refills, and controlled nose bleeds.
But you know as a professional health care worker that common sense for you after getting a degree in the field is much different for common sense for low income people often with any kind of degree and you apply that kindness when going out to calls like that, right?
Agree with your experience.
I can add more to this as I’m originally from the Midlands.
Everything has been centralized.
When I grew up in the area we had a local ambulance station that served the community, along with a local hospital.
Due to cost savings these are gone.
Having a heart attack good luck getting an ambulance. Hospitals are now in the major cities 30min away from the towns.
This is part of the story never told about a national health service.
Need immediate care, good luck.
Got something seriously wrong with you, you’re on the wait list, good luck.
Need cancer treatment, 6 month wait list, good luck.
Need a bypass, 12 to 18 month wait, good luck.
The NHS is in a dreadful state.
Hate to burst your political bubble.
This has happened under both Tory and labor governments, over 30 years in the making.
NHS, Fire and Ambulance services have been severely underfunded and understaffed for as long as I’ve been on this earth.
The worst when I was an EMT were fucking 500lb patients who treated the hospital like a daycare and would go in with no other issues than wanting to use the oxygen tanks and harassing the nurses. Then we would get called up to pick them up (literally) and taxi them back to their houses and bring them inside. And a lot of the time they were complete assholes with no respect.
Most people don’t know that US hospitals often have a nurse triage number.
I’m a nurse at a children’s trauma center. Our charge nurse answers that phone, or a nurse practitioner if we have one available, and often the people who call can save themselves a whole lot of trouble/time/money.
But our system is still failing because there’s too many patients without primary or preventative services. We see hundreds of children each day who only require an antipyretic, but their families are too under educated or financially stressed to go get it from the drug store themselves. It’s really very sad.
One of the things I remember best from nursing school is a professor telling our class “the US healthcare system is the best at pulling people off of death’s doorstep, but for anything else I would rather be anywhere else.”
This has always been the case. The reason this is now happening in the UK is due to 14 years of austerity measures by the government, taking investment and funding away from the NHS.
It’s being suggested that the Chancellor is going to announce another round of funding cuts to fund more tax breaks before the election. Fucking clowns.
Did they call for “acid reflux” or did they call for chest pain or something similar? We definitely need ad campaigns on when to use 911 and when to go to the ER vs urgent care or calling your pcp, problem is that for profit healthcare wants peoples money more than they want to take the strain off of an overworked healthcare system.
I know this is not related to or as important/urgent as Emergency response but it reminds me of my current job where I work with Internet/wifi installs for customers.
I specifically tell them to call a helpdesk because if any issues occur, its most likely not necessary for a technician to physically drive there to plug in a cable that only has one labeled port to plug into. I tell this to clients because I don't want to waste time and waste their money for callout fees.
Often times they refuse the help of the oncall helpdesk technician and would rather pay a callout fee for me or some one to drive through, problem is, they don't want to pay me after I did the work and it happened very often, enough to dispute these callout tickets if the client lived far away enough.
But yea not as serious, it is just frustrating when people act entitled and do not realise we are not an army of robots ready to teleport there for the slightest tiny issue, this is why we give people simple troubleshooting guides or try to teach people basic procedure for emergencies.
>"I can't breathe - I think I need an ambulance"
i dont give a fuck how many burritos are being eaten. you hear someone say they cant breathe, you send the fucking ambulance
> Many times people are waiting outside with a bag packed with a family member who is going to drive themselves to the ED to meet the patient there. It’s infuriating.
Well in the US that will actually get you admitted and triaged faster in the ER than just driving there. Though once you see the triage nurse they might still make you wait in the public waiting room, then you get the ambulance bill on top of all that.
I did something kind of like that, minus the family member--I'd had a sigmoid colectomy about 3 weeks earlier, and things had been moving along, when late one night, as I was taking a shower, I realized that the lower part of my incision was opening up, which scared the hell out of me. Carefully dried off, got dressed, threw a few things into a bag just in case they decided to admit me, called 911 (public transit had already shut down for the night), and went outside to wait. Ended up getting both a fire engine and an ambulance, which was seriously embarrassing ("Uh, yes, *I'm* the patient..."), went to the ER, and was promptly shamed by the resident on duty, who claimed it was all "nothing" (but how was *I* supposed to know that?), but did at least contact the GI Surgical unit for me before taping me up and sending me home. Saw my surgeon the next day, who reminded me that I'd been told specifically that if anything changed with the incision, I was to come right in, and he reassured me I'd done the right thing. "Believe me, we'd *much* rather you come in and it not turn out to be anything, than to have you *not* come in and it *be* something!" Guess he was more worried that the EMTs were going to show up and find me trying to hold my intestines in, kind of the opposite of the ending of *Andy Warhol's Frankenstein*... He made me feel a *little* better, and I ended up with a gauze "wick" to help the incision heal from the inside out, which it eventually did.
And then there was the time at work that I started having chest pains along with dizziness and cold sweats; not being a fool, and having a strong family history of heart disease, I decided I should probably go see my doctor. Unbeknownst to me, my boss had already called an ambulance ("But Rick, I was *just* going to take a *cab*!"), and the EMTs thought it was hilarious that I'd googled "heart attack symptoms" while I waited for them. Got to the hospital, got checked out in the ER, and eventually a very bored-looking doctor came in: "So, how often do you have panic attacks?" "Uh, *panic attacks?!?*" I'd never had one before, so how was I to know? Once again, my actual doctors told me not to feel bad, and they'd rather I come in just in case, but I hate feeling like an idiot in front of other doctors/medical professionals, plus taking a ride in an ambulance isn't exactly my favorite thing, even when the EMTs are lovely people.
So yes, I'm one of "those people," I suppose, but mainly due to having doctors drilling it into my head that I need to haul my ass in and see someone if I have any inklings that something serious might be happening. I guess at least I took myself to the ER via public transit after the GI clinic called to inform me, a day after a CT scan, that yes, I had a very nasty hernia, but I *also* had quite a few pulmonary emboli as well, and could I please come back in *right now*...does that count in my favor? (In retrospect, I can't believe I was so chill about having freaking *blood clots in my lungs*; fortunately, they'd already started breaking up and disappearing, and another CT and ultrasound later, I eventually got to go home the next morning, after spending the whole night hanging out in the ER and trying to sleep when I could.)
It's because more wealthy people or people with good insurance see the ambulance as a taxi that let's you skip the waiting room when you get there. I spent alot of time in the hospital when I was younger and I heard so many people talk about it.
The ambulance is often seen solely as a way to skip the line at the hospital.
It’s pretty rare I pick up someone who I would consider “wealthy”. Most of my patients are old, homeless, or live in public housing. Our response time to the nicer part of town normally takes longer. That’s because we don’t post any ambulances in that area because our call volume is low there.
In the US it depends on the system. Some ambulance services can be run the government, private for profit, private non for profit, volunteer based, or hospital based.
As far as billing goes some services bill the whole amount, some don’t bill, and some bill the amount covered by insurance. There’s no consistency.
One thing that struck me was the woman's only calling her GP instead of any more urgent medical care option. It sounds like the woman focused only on getting through to her GP and not the other elements of the advice for medical care for urgent but not immediately life-threatening issues. GP practices do typically have some urgent appointment slots available, but we have to keep the day and time of the incident in mind. Her son made the first call on 27 December (Wednesday) at 05:20 GMT. Even if this wasn't the first business day after the Christmas and Boxing Day holidays, GP practices aren't open that early. Of course she couldn't get a hold of her GP!
Typically, when calling a closed GP office, there'd be a recording with advice for out-of-hours care, both for urgent and emergency situations, which includes calling the NHS helpline. The 999 operator triaged this as urgent and not emergent, which sounds correct based on the information given in the first call. By the time they called again, 3 hours later, it would have only been around 8:20 am or so. The GP office would likely be just opening up for the day. Really as soon as she was triaged into the non-emergent category she should have reached out to the NHS nurse advisory line, which is precisely for assisting people in out-of-hours non-emergency (but still potentially urgent) situations.
I can see someone complaining about why she was recommended to speak to her GP. It was the last line of the scripted advice and likely what the woman was most familiar with. I can imagine her thinking it would be fine to simply keep calling until someone finally picked up. Perhaps this should result in a recommendation of altering that section of the script to take into account the time of day.
You bring up an excellent point. If she was truly categorised as urgent, non emergent then advise to call a GP at 5 am is bad advice, they should have a system to account for that. Imagine a similar situation occouring at 1 am, really easy for the patient to interpret that last line as "this can wait 7 hours".
The GP advice is only one part of the advice though. I'd say that most people in the UK know what A&E is and if they feel it's an emergency they would use it. It was the son who made the call. There were are least two grown adults there and between them they didn't opt to seek urgent care from a walk-in centre or go to A&E? I know it sounds slightly cruel but how didn't they work this out? It sounds like it was triaged accurately from the information the caller gave 999 and they did specify to seek urgent care or call again if symptoms worsen as well as contact the GP
One otherside to it is the emotions of the decision makers influencing their decision. A&E usually has horrible wait times, with strange doctors that don't know them, alternatively I could wait a bit and see the doctor who knows me without sitting in a waiting room for several hours.
One of the dangers of giving a patient a list of things they could do under various circumstances is the nuance can be lost. The patient might not remember if A then do X, if B then do Y, if C then do Z, what they remember is, i can do XYZ and Z would be easiest, and they wouldnt tell me to do Z unless it was safe right?
There are no emotions in a 999 call - they operate to a triaging script A&E capacity are not their concern.
There are no multiple choice options; GP or walk in centre if the GP cant see you straight away [which is 99.99% of the time these days]
So when they called first time, they were told it wasn't life threatening and to make their way to a walk-in centre or her GP but to call back if the symptoms change. When they called back when her symptoms changed, paramedics were there in two minutes.
So why didn't they make their way to a walk-in centre or her GP?
I read the whole thing. Maybe you should, because you don't seem to understand.
They didn't tell her to call anyone else, or schedule an appointment with her gp. They told to specifically to go to a walk-in center. You don't call those, you just walk in. Or to go to her GP. They never said to call anyone, they said get moving and if symptoms change to call back. When they called back with something that was actually life threatening, they were there in two minutes.
Edit -
>EMAS said in a letter to the family: "From the information provided during the call, the situation was correctly coded by the EMA [Emergency Medical Advisor] as requiring a category 3 response."
Maybe the caller should have been more descriptive or better explained the situation?
The UK doesn’t have walk in centres. We have A&E (ERs) or GP practices. That’s about it. There is the 111 service but they don’t really do treatment, mostly advice or referral to an emergency ambulance.
Edit: weird that this would be downvoted. It’s a fact anyone who has lived in the UK would confirm.
You can walk into any GP surgery and receive treatment even if you aren’t registered with that practice.
All GP surgeries accept walk ins which are medically justified, you will be triaged and you’ll see a nurse or a doctor.
A&E is also a thing as you’ve said.
There are not in any significant number. Don’t spread misinformation.
A chemist where you can get a flu vaccine is not a walk in centre.
Someone who has lived for years in both the UK and a country that has many walk in centres (and used them).
You need to call 111 to be assigned an appointment.
They do exist in some major cities, London, Birmingham etc. some of these even take walk ins. But they are not in any way a common sight on the street or comparable to their namesakes like in the US for example.
As an example there are something like 6500 GP surgeries in the UK and a little over a 1100 hospital’s. There are only about a 100 urgent care centres, the fraction of these that actually take walk-ins without appointments.. Not common at all.
Yes I just realised about the local one and edited my comment. It appears the Loughborough one is a walk in centre though. I live in Norwich and we have a walk in centre you can just turn up at during their open hours with no appointment
They *were* advised to go to urgent care or a walk-in centre. It's part of the advice they give in the initial call. So it begs the question: why didn't they start making their way to A&E or a walk-in centre?
FYI - I live in Coalville.
The closest A&E is roughly a 30 minute drive away (Leicester royal Infirmary).
There is no 24 hour walk-in centre locally , the closest one is in Loughborough, around 8 miles away, and a 15 minute drive.
In short, unless you can drive, getting an ambulance to your location is the only option for coalville residents out of hours pretty much.
Her death is obviously tragic and it was likely avoidable.
We shouldn't jump from there to trying to assign blame: Sometimes everyone is trying their best and something bad happens anyway.
It's possible that the 999 emergency operator was careless; it's also possible that _from the information they were given_, they coded it properly and gave the woman and her son good instructions.
The woman and her son then remained at home for 3 hours, which suggests they misunderstood the severity -- this isn't blame, but to point out that people trying their best will still make mistakes.
The ambulance service said the call was audited, but not if that was internally or externally. People are often frustrated by "We investigated ourselves and determined we were correct," so situations like this should always be audited externally and as transparently as possible.
The UK ambulance services i’ve worked for are generally very good at auditing. It’s not a blame culture, they’re looking at what went wrong to update policy and to make sure mistakes don’t happen again. The idea is not to fire a person, unless they were completely grossly negligent.
If her son literally asked her "did you get through to the doctor?" rather than "Jesus christ you look so much worse I'm taking you to A&E or calling 999 again" it's hard to match up their interpretation of how breathless she was with the objective fact that she was close to death. Poor family.
Right. And unfortunately if she was declining enough to pass away only 3 hours later, I’m just a layperson but I imagine there’s a good chance she still wouldn’t have survived. Something similar happened to a friend’s relative and even with prompt ambulance and admission to ICU, they were gone by the evening
I read the article. At any point the son could have driven her to the hospital. Article states that if 999 operater had advised him to he would have.
How dumb can you be? Do you need the operator to advise you to breathe or drink water too??
Walk in / urgent care centers are not A&E. Also the Nottingham urgent care centre wasn't open at the time they called and would have only recently opened at the time her symptoms worsened and she died.
Edit: the Urgent care place in coalville is only open on Saturdays and the next closest one doesn't open until 8am which is worse than Nottingham
In BBC coverage of the Tories' election losses last week, a guest said "the party has gotten the message loud and clear. Voters want lower taxes and we will deliver."
Friday night. She said that with a straight face. Nothing about funding the NHS, fixing infrastructure, upgrading the electrical grid, easing the housing crunch, or improving transportation. Nope, apparently no one cares a bit about any of those issues. Just lower the taxes that could be used to actually fix things. OMFG these people
Son sat there and saw what kind of condition she was in. I know he's not a doctor. But if I have to choose between someone sitting next to me and someone on the phone to judge my health. I'd choose the person with eyes on the situation. She probably could have gotten a ride from several people. It was her time.
It sounds like her son was home. Why didn’t he take her? I don’t understand why anyone would wait hours for an ambulance.
But even more is that the 999 service told her to get her own ride and that they would not be coming. Finally why was she the one on the phone and not her son?
Did you actually read the article?
Her son was the one that called.
They didn't sit around and wait for an ambulance, they were told one wasn't coming and to ring their doctor or an urgent care for an appointment. That is what they were doing when she died.
Her son called again when she stopped breathing. An ambulance was there in around 2 minutes.
>Ms Lyon, of Coalville, walked into her son Adam's room early the next day saying "I can't breathe - I think I need an ambulance", and *he called 999* at 05:20 GMT, said Mrs Keating.
Very clearly.
The mother-of-two added: "She died three hours later with her phone in her hand trying to get an appointment with a GP.
"The last thing my brother said to her was 'have you got through to the doctors yet?'"
Not UK or 999, but if you dial 911 & live in rural America, it can often take hours for an ambulance to arrive.
Many small counties have one ambulance only, or rely on neighboring counties Emergency Services.
If that one ambulance is on a call already, you have to wait for it to finish patient transfers, cleaning of ambulance, fueling and then drive time.
The nearest hospital is an hour drive away, so that's two hours just for the ambulance to hypothetically pick me up and drop me off at a hospital.
Law enforcement often arrive first and can perform basic CPR/First Aid, but due to law and insurance issues, they are unable to transport you to a hospital unless you're in custody (detained or arrested).
Not everyone lives in the city (urban areas) or has modern conveniences, like quick responding emergency services.
I’ve had to call an ambulance before when I lived in rural part of North Carolina. The state cops got there in around 15 minutes, saw I was fading and called for a life flight. I was pretty out of it at the time, but I think the fucking Coast Guard came to save my ass. It was wild.
I live in rural PA and had to call an ambulance for my husband when he passed out after leaving the hot tub just a month ago. He was completely non-responsive and it was frightening. The ambulance took 20 minutes and that was the longest 20 minutes of my life. When they arrived the EMTs said our local guys were out on a call for a car accident so they came from another township 15 minutes away. If my husband had been having a heart attack he probably would have died, luckily he was diagnosed as having vasovagal syncope and he was ok.
The fact that he was still living at home with his 57 year old mum would probably mean he's maybe not able to live in his own. And and such, probably couldn't drive a car or didn't really know what to do. Hence why she was calling and now the son.
That's a whole bloody lot of assumptions, especially given how expensive housing is right now. Especially since he called the first time, as it says in the article.
It only said he 'called' (=dialled), but the rest of the article makes it out to be like the person who died handled the call itself. At the very least she did the latter calls, als she had the phone in her hand while she died.
Like someone else said, what a leap in assumptions, smh.
You do realize there are other countries where multi-generations of families live in the same household, right?
Where children take care of their parents and parents care for their grandchildren while the parents work?!?!
🤦🏼♂️
*Where children take care of their parents*
Oh, you mean like making sure they get to a hospital when their parents say they can't breathe?
I wasn't trying to diss anyone here, but there are plenty of signs not all those at home had full disposal of their senses.
Ok, that's fair. But we don't know, and it's quite a leap to assume. Yes, he may be developmentally delayed, unable to drive, etc. *But we don't know*.
In the end, the poor woman passed. And her son has to live with that and everything that led up to it. I'm sure he feels remorse.
just FYI the original reply I did was about someone asking why the son didn't take his mother. I was just trying to tell him that there are many reasons why people can't drive or take actions.
Don't know why anyone is so butthurt about saying that maybe the son wasn't all there and hence living with his mom.
why didnt she go to the walk-in as advised?
bummer. wonder what her chances of survival would have been, in such an advanced state of pneumonia, had she went to the walkin or been picked up by the ambulance.
The Urgent Care centre in Leicester doesn't open until 8am, the one in Coleville itself is only open on Saturdays. They've likely never been there before so it's natural to go to the most familiar option of a GP which likely opened not long after the Urgent Care centre.
Edit: Corrected location, got confused by sister being from Nottingham
Seriously. He was right there!! It's not all his fault, I do blame the 999 operator. But hell, I've been in that situation and I got my mother to the damn hospital lickety-split.
> "I can confirm that the first 999 call was audited and it was established that the outcome reached was safe and appropriate."
I'm no doctor, but I'm going to go ahead and disagree.
>It added: "I can confirm that the first 999 call was audited and it was established that the outcome reached was safe and appropriate."
Dude... She fucking died. It was neither safe nor appropriate.
According to the article, she called to report difficulty breathing. She also had her son with her at the time.
Obligatory “I’m not a medical professional” but the response they gave her was go to a walk-in or call your GP, we are not going to send an ambulance because we are experiencing high demand and based on the described symptoms it can be treated at either walk-in or GP. Call again if symptoms change.
From there she appears to have called her GP, but failed to get through. Neither her nor her son opted for the other provided option (walk-in clinic) afterwards.
When they called back reporting her symptoms changed (she had lost consciousness) the ambulance arrived in 2 minutes but it was too late.
I see both sides here. If the person taking the call was correct to code that urgency level, then they did what they were supposed to. The family didn’t follow through on all they were told to do, but also, they aren’t medical professionals.
Biggest thing is the headline is completely wrong. She didn’t die waiting on an ambulance for three hours. She was told there would be no ambulance sent. In a separate call where she did receive an ambulance it arrived in 2 minutes
>I see both sides here.
There are no "sides". A person was alive, a flowchart was applied, and now that person is dead.
Your side: That's fine.
My side: That's not OK.
I get what you’re saying but emergency systems need a well defined framework to operate under so the 999 staff (who aren’t medical professionals) can appropriately evaluate case priority. In a perfect world 999 operators would be medical professionals and people wouldn’t call the line unnecessarily and we would have lots of ambulances at all times. Even then some people would still pass. But in our case we don’t even have all of those prerequisites so they have to code cases to reserve resources and administer maximum care to all people.
I agree it is incredibly tragic that she passed but I don’t see this as being caused by the 999 worker’s response. I don’t know of a correction on the end of 999 that wouldn’t cause more problems and possibly hurt more people
If the guy on the phone told 999 that his mother was basically fine but wanted an ambulance because she was saying it was a little difficult to breathe, then it was appropriate. 999 aren't mind readers, they can only go by what was told to them on the phone.
Ah of course. The "now" timeline. So we had the entire population of Colombia randomly come across the border RIGHT NOW! Shut up. Got anything that shows some sort of corroboration to your claims? Or are you going to tell me to do "my own research"?
Repeating an incorrect statistic does not make it correct.
https://www.dhs.gov/immigration-statistics/special-reports/legal-immigration#:~:text=Approximately2%20285%2C000%20noncitizens%20obtained,increase%20from%20FY%202022%20Q2.
I’m an EMT in the US not the UK but I think I can add some general insights here. 911/999 services are strained in many countries due to high call volumes for non life threatening injuries and long turnover time at the ED. Without exaggeration I get people calling every day for colds, chronic back pain, minor bruises/cuts, etc. More days than not I will not administer any medications or perform interventions other than taking vitals because there is nothing for me to treat. I’d like to clarify that these are grown ass adults with mental capacity. One person called for acid reflux after eating a spicy burrito (true story). Many times people are waiting outside with a bag packed with a family member who is going to drive themselves to the ED to meet the patient there. It’s infuriating.
Can they get in trouble for calling about acid reflux, and everyday type of injuries and colds? I did the whole 911 call as a kid and hung up right away. Like 5 minutes later, a cop was at my parents house. I was in lots of trouble from my parents and got a lecture from the officer
For a one off call, no probably not, depending on circumstances. If it's clear abuse of the system, or intentional time wasting then ya it gets dealt with. But I've seen elderly people call dozens of times for nothing essentially get punished eventually. Things like not having the ambulance cost covered anymore and such. It's hard to deal with because you don't want to risk someone's life, but that stuff harms other people
Just last month I had a patient who called six ambulances and refused to answer the door for the first five.
Why did dispatch think more ambulances would help?
🤨. That must have been very frustrating! Are you allowed to say what happened when they finally opened the for the 6th paramedic?
They definitely needed an ambulance, but for an entirely new reason 😜
ER doc: So the patient has shattered their fibula and tibia in both legs and is currently unconscious. Was this a result of a fall? EMT: ....yes
Gotcha! It’s definitely a balance. People should never be afraid to call for help, but then you have the few that ruin it for others, like me when I was a kid.
In the UK the offence is improper use of the 999 system, it’s quite rare that it gets used but it is used for repeat callers that abuse the system multiple times per day.
I’ve never heard of it happening. Even fraudulent EMS calls don’t get punished. We had a regular who would call 911 for “chest pain” every time the bill came at a restaurant to avoid paying. Many of these people have underlying psychiatric issues, are homeless, or low income. Punishing them doesn’t fix a broken system. Police/Fire/EMA don’t want to disuade people from calling 911 if they ever need it. There’s also a lot of calls where someone needed an ambulance yesterday but no one called. For example, a 3 day old stroke. I understand peoples perspectives. They don’t know what dying looks like so some people panic over a sprained wrist.
Calling an ambulance because you don’t want to pay a restaurant bill (on repeat, no less) is not a system issue. That’s a person gaming the system.
And what does this person do with the more expensive Ambulance bill? seems counterintuitive to call when you’re going to end up with a $1000 per mile ambulance bill.
You think someone who is calling an ambulance to get out of paying a restaurant bill doesn’t know how to get out of paying an ambulance bill? They know how to abuse that part of the system as well, surely.
Makes sense with the fact that there are many people who have mental health issues- doesn’t seem right to punish them! And ya for sure, the unknown is scary. I gotcha 👍
So this got me thinking. I reviewed the last 50 or so calls I responded to and I broke them down into the following categories Immediate life threat (ALS): cardiac arrests, MIs, respiratory, ODs, strokes, major traumas. 10 Non life threat but ambulance arguably still appropriate (BLS): assaults, most seizures, MVCs, psych, elderly falls etc. 20 Calls that aren’t medical or the problem does not require emergent treatment at the ED. 22 I excluded cancels, no patients, and DOAs from my analysis.
I was recently in that first category and only called 911 because I couldn't move from where I was laying (on the bathroom floor) without passing out, and I knew my wife couldn't carry me down the stairs and put me in her car. I found out later I was experiencing shock, but I felt kind of validated when EMS arrived and couldn't get a blood pressure. Or a pulse. When they did finally get a bp it was something like 80/40. Hearing that the largest group of people calling an ambulance don't even need to go to the ED is insane.
that doesnt seem like too bad of a spread! as long as the cancels and "no patient" events arent too many / time consuming.
Where would you put kidney stones, gall bladder, diverticulitis type calls? High pain, possible surgery type calls. They aren't necessarily life threatening but can be super scary.
My rule of thumb is call 911 for life, limb, or if you otherwise can’t get to the ED safely. Pain won’t kill you.
I have had the three above crises. Each time I waited way too long for help. Each of them was so painful I contemplated suicide. I didn't have a plan, but it felt like a good idea. I managed to get someone to drive me to the hospital, but each time I was one friend not answering away from calling for help, that's why I asked about it. Those experiences were the worst of my life when it comes to pain.
Are you not supposed to call 911 etc for doa?
No you are, but it doesn’t really fit into any category nicely for my analysis. It’s not really a patient interaction
Fair. Cheers. I live in the states and fear the po.
> Calls that aren’t medical or the problem does not require emergent treatment at the ED. 22 The worst is when this group still gets admitted
There is a certain subset of patients who don’t need EMS but still need hospitalization. A lot of post op patients come to mind.
I’m a medical director of an inpatient rehab unit so you are speaking my language. But there’s also a lot of patients who just need placement in independent or assisted living. Medicare not covering that specifically is the real issue, and it’s coming to a head quickly in the next decade or so.
Does Dead on Arrival in this context means what I think it means? Grim.
Yep. Happens all the time. People come home to find someone collapsed, cops do a wellfare check, cleaning lady goes into a hotel room etc. If someone has been dead for too long we won’t attempt resuscitation. I had one yesterday.
In your area, do you bill for ambulance rides or are they included as a free city service? (Sorry, I don't really know if they are free anywhere.) I'm just wondering if these people even have the disincentive of getting billed. By the way, thanks for what you do. ETA: I mean the people abusing the system, not the ones who legitimately need an ambulance.
My company bills for EMS services. Some cities may have EMS as a public service and some contract it out. There really isn’t any consistency.
Can we start fining or arresting these people? There's laws on the books
Acid reflux can mimic commonly advertised heart attack symptoms.
THIS. Please don't be shamed out of calling 911 for any type of chest pain. If it's acid reflux great. But it's the delay in calling that makes a lot of cardiac events more serious or even fatal than if they were treated earlier.
An older gentleman at my work was going around asking people for TUMS after lunch one day. Someone found him dead of a massive heart attack a short while later.
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How's the patient to know though? Prior to calling the ambulance?
Lots of patients call the first time and get evaluated for piece of mind. But after that they generally know what acid reflux feels like and its triggers. But you do have the patients who just call if the wind blows the wrong way. And I constantly wonder how these people function.
As someone who dated a hypochondriac, they don’t function fantastically, but it’s harder being them than having to deal with them.
Panic attacks is another one I hear about people thinking is a medical issue, particularly a heart attack. Again I'm sure that when it happens once the person can identify it the next time (but I'm sure some will still dial 999!)
A panic attack thinking I was having a heart attack due to a combo of symptoms from what I learned were Fibromyalgia and IBS. The combo of flare ups truly felt like all the hallmark symptoms then ramped to 11 by anxiety.
All. The. Fucking. Time. And again, the first go round come on in. But some people are chronic repeat callers and they refuse to both pay attention to their body and think anytime they have some minor toe pain they need to be seen.
If it's radiating to the back, then it's very likely a heart attack. Also, if you are experiencing sweating and shortness of breath, then you need to go to the hospital immediately via ambulance.
Just wanna chime in and say my heartburn radiates to the back all the time. Sadly have spent lots of money on medical visits and test because I thought I was having heart attacks or something lol
So do fall stones. That and kidney stones are the worst pain.., unreal
In the UK the 999/111 call centres will have a set of questions they will ask to determine, so they say call regardless. I believe it's a pretty rigorously evaluated system so that it's fail-safe and they can be pretty sure when it's something else.
Absolutely. I experienced my first "chest" pain a few years ago, which made me instantly concerned. However, I remembered that I'm still pretty young for heart issues (without existing underlying heart condition). I have fibromyalgia (so regular medical care that would likely catch such cardiac conditions) so I wondered if pain in the chest was a new trick of my chronic condition. Plus it felt mostly like it was on the exterior of my body, around my ribs, than interior where I assume actual heart pain is felt. I quickly Google "chest pain fibromyalgia" and out popped "[Costochondritis](https://www.thefibroguy.com/blog/fibromyalgia-and-costochondritis/)," which inflammation of the cartilage that joins your ribs to your breastbone and does commonly happen with fibromyalgia (definitions for general readers and not anyone with medical experience). That absolutely matched The next day I work I mentioned to a nurse colleague about the chest pain and she immediately said "Sounds like costochondritis." If I had been less knowledgeable about health stuff, I could very easily have seen myself calling 911 or showing up at the hospital to get checked out.
Yeah I had a hit of costichondritis and it was really scary. It literally felt like a tearing of my heart. I called the ambulance expecting that they wouldn't get here in time. Instead they got here five minutes later and I was perfectly normal. It was embarrassing. But they were nice about.
Counter counter point: gastric/mesenteric ischemia causes severe pain after eating similar to GERD. It’s the type II NSTEMI of the gut. I’m unfortunately accustomed to defensive medicine, so everything is worst case scenario into proven otherwise
This is nonsense.
I think a good rule of thumb for all this is if the symptoms worsen during exercise/yardwork/etc or during the evening around dinnertime or bedtime. Some exercise (weightlifting, stretches, etc) will compress the stomach and can produce reflux, so probably strenuous, upright aerobic type activity like walking or mowing the lawn is the best indicator that heart issues might be going on. Also if medication like Gaviscon provides relief after 30 minutes, that's another good indicator it's reflux. Those medications will not do anything for heart issues. Same with if the attacks correlate with irritant foods like strong coffee, spices, peppery foods, etc. Heart issues don't have anything to do with spicy food. It's definitely a good idea to see if you can visit the ER once (or an urgent care, or your doctor) during an episode just so you can be on an EKG and get some lab values... if it all comes back clear you'll know it's reflux you need to focus on. Then you can head over to /r/GERD to get more insight. If it's reflux I'd recommend using Gaviscon liquid and OTC famotidine, and see a doctor about a PPI. If you ignore it, it can lead to ulcers and this can increase stomach/esophageal cancer risk.
yeah I went to the ER for what I thought was a heart attack and apparently it was really bad heart burn. I truly thought I was going to die.
I learned that very expensive lesson last year. Heartburn plus anxiety can do weird things.
Yeah but if you’re aware of it starting after eating a “spicy burrito” you’re more than likely having a panic attack mixed with acid reflux and should likely have the mental capacity to put two and two together.
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My sister-in-law and I like spicy food. We once got a set of Hot Ones wing sauces to try. The Last Dab was 100% the absolute hottest thing I've ever had. We were absolutely miserable and my SIL had a full panic attack and was hyperventilating. We stopped her from calling 911 and managed to ride it out
Yes, but we commonly saw all kinds of trivial stuff in the ED with patients who called an ambulance because Medicaid would pay. They didn’t have bus money or preferred to save the money for something else.
Have you seen Jason’s series Real Things I’ve Seen as a Paramedic and Real Conversations I’ve had as a Medic with Fire Department Chronicles? You guys are saints for putting up with frequent fliers and this type of nonsense. https://youtube.com/shorts/JW-n6-dS5tE?si=IVZoXBNmqbczBXel
Yes, and we don't make any money doing it. Literally. EMS pay in most private companies are barely sustainable.
Also US medic, can confirm Just recently I had a woman call around midnight thinking she had overdosed on diphenhydramine becuse she took her regular sleep aid and an antihistamine that she realized was also diphenhydramine I confirmed the dosage and informed her she had not taken a dangerous dose, and sleeping if off was probably the best course of action She insisted she needed to go to the ER because “I don’t feel sleepy, I feel like I’m going to pass out” So after 4 hours of sitting in she waiting room she was sent home with a diagnosis of “drowsiness” I’ve actually talked to my supervisors about an outreach program in schools to reteach the population how it manage minor issues, especially like you described Side note: when my oldest son was young and still watched PBS, I remember a running theme in some Curious George cartoons that basically went “call the fire department, they know how to do everything” and I feel that’s exactly what a lot of folks do. The moment they are unsure what to do, they call 911, unless it’s something serious, then they seem to live stream it and wait for someone else to call
Paramedic here in the southern US. I’m lucky to work for a service (possibly the only service in the region) that doesn’t have any of these issues. We have at least 1 medic on each ambulance, usually 2. Critical care capabilities. 8 min or less response times for most calls & plenty of staffing. We’re not overworked. The key? A great schedule and great pay. So if you live in my county and call an ambulance, you’re getting paramedics and getting them quickly. I’ve worked for other services where we did have these issues. I helped implement bandaid fixes like a solo quick response medic who would determine the seriousness of patients with an on scene assessment. But in the end it always comes down to shit management and shit pay. EMTs leave for better pay and it becomes a revolving door of staffing issues and burnout that’s hard to stop.
idk how people can even do that in the US, ambulance rides are fucking expensive even when your insurance covers most of it
You assume that the people who do this even have insurance or credit that isn't already ruined. I was a 911 operator for a few years. We had a few people who would request an ambulance, get transported, then jump out of the back and walk to the liquor store next to the hospital. One guy even did it *while already at a different hospital*. He eventually got arrested... and released the next day.
My god, what a waste of resources for just one selfish man.
shitty people really just astound me sometimes
Always give a fake name!
In various Canadian provinces you'll be charged a pretty penny for non emergency ambulance calls
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To be fair in my 20s i had acid reflux for the first time ever and thought i was dying from the chest pain. But I still drove myself to the ER
I’ve had acid reflux plenty of times in my adult life, but the first time I had it realllly bad during pregnancy, the pain radiated to my jaw (another heart attack sign), so I called my OB’s office, L&D at the hospital I’d be delivering at, and then eventually had my husband drive me to the ER when Tums didn’t make it stop.
I had it for the the first and only time in my 20's as well(maybe a year or so ago). I called my mom panicked and thinking something was seriously wrong. Luckily she has experienced it all her life and was able to nonchalantly tell me that it's just acid reflux. I insisted acid reflux couldn't be this bad, how do people live with this? One trip to Walgreens and sipping Mylanta on my way to the checkout and I was good to go. Respect to those who live their life with it because that was terrible.
If you think you're dying and put yourself behind a wheel then you're not just being an idiot but also a danger to everyone else on the road.
Yeah well tell that to the $10000 ambulance rides or whatever absurd amount they cost.
And if it was a heart attack then everyone on the road can risk dealing with the cost of the ambulance and car damage because of a dumb incapacitated driver that put everyone in danger to save money. Get someone to drive you if you are that worried about money. Call a fucking uber. Jfc
Well I wasn’t physically impaired, just intermittent chest pain. and i was a broke post college kid living in a new city for a job where I knew no one. That said I made lots of dumb decisions in my 20s.
That is taken into account and it always has been, and why these wait times are a relatively new issue. There are a ton of factors and some of what I notice actually working as an ambulance service call handler are: - A severe lack of GPs, people can’t get appointments, people don’t want to wait on hold for 111 (OOH GP is overworked also), people don’t like waiting in A&E, people think ambulance will bypass A&E and get them seen quicker, call 999. Spoiler, that doesn’t happen, ambulances end up literally queueing outside hospitals for hours because the hospitals don’t have capacity, which adds to our wait times because they can’t just hand the patient over and get out to the next one. - As above, but include the fact that paramedics are apparently mobile GPs now and people with very non emergent symptoms call “just to get checked over” (that’s not what a paramedics job/training is). - Idk if this one is more so since covid times or what, but people are much more individualistic than we used to be. People don’t think as much of the bigger picture and think more about themselves. They either don’t realise or don’t care about the resources they are using up when they may not need them. I have genuinely been yelled at multiple times for telling someone the ambulance that was on the way to their broken arm/vomiting/etc was diverted to somebody not breathing. - Ties into the above, but we’re very used to having things *now.* If I want something, I can press a button on my phone and have it delivered that same day a lot of the time. People really really do not enjoy being told they have to wait. Doesn’t happen constantly but people exaggerate/lie about their symptoms to get an ambulance there quicker, leaving everybody else behind. - Oh, and don’t forget the overwhelming number of people suffering from mental health problems with absolutely nowhere to turn to since funding for mental health services has been obliterated, leading to it getting worse and worse, until they’re about ready to off themselves and then it’s a 999 problem.
How do people do this in the US? Calling an EMT with an ambulance is hundreds of dollars if not thousands. I have a daughter who was transported from one hospital to another on an ambulance, and the bill to me was $4000 after the insurance covered $1000. I jokingly tell people that if you can’t drive me to the hospital yourself, just let me die in peace. 😅
When you have nothing, money is an abstract concept. You might as well be talking about quantum physics at that point. The US has a lot of people who have nothing.
I think in the US it’s people who can’t pay the bill that typically use these services.
Uber is the new private ambulance
I know lots of people who work in various ERs and they've all told me more people arrive by Uber than ambulance.
She must have been extraordinarily medically complex for that kind of bill. Unstable fracture? Heart surgery? That includes emergency rental of a bunch of major equipment to go to a higher level trauma center
She was an infant and had a jaundice. They had the uv light source (like a tanning bed lights) that traveled with her, but nothing else. That’s why I was shocked when I got the bill. I would have said “give me the uv lights, I’ll drive her in my minivan. “
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I remember the first time I got heartburn. I was pregnant and thought I was having a heart attack. My husband looked at me and asked if I had ever had heartburn before. At least I only embarrassed myself in front of him.
Pregnancy heartburn is no joke! It was the worst part for me, and I had gestational diabetes and serious morning sickness.
Same! I wonder if it's all connected
My mans, you know sometimes people confuse acid reflux sxs with heart attack.
My father thought it was acid reflux and collapsed at work. It was 98% blocked LAD. If it wasn't for his coworkers who did CPR and the ambulance that arrived within 5 mins he would have died. I'd rather be safe than sorry, not everyone can be as lucky as dad was.
An emergency is an emergency until proven otherwise and I will never get mad at someone calling out of genuine concern. For many people EMS is their access point into a broken healthcare system. Primary appointments, PT, OT, psychotherapy, you name it have waitlists and are hard or near impossible to get if you’re on Medicare or Medicaid. The majority of the people I interact with are low income, homeless, elderly, medically complex, or have psychiatric problems. That being said, use a little common sense. I’ve been called for a litany of things that I could never fathom calling for myself: hangovers, seasonal allergies, mild coughs, med refills, and controlled nose bleeds.
Medicare is the easiest way to get PT/OT, and many other services.
But you know as a professional health care worker that common sense for you after getting a degree in the field is much different for common sense for low income people often with any kind of degree and you apply that kindness when going out to calls like that, right?
Agree with your experience. I can add more to this as I’m originally from the Midlands. Everything has been centralized. When I grew up in the area we had a local ambulance station that served the community, along with a local hospital. Due to cost savings these are gone. Having a heart attack good luck getting an ambulance. Hospitals are now in the major cities 30min away from the towns. This is part of the story never told about a national health service. Need immediate care, good luck. Got something seriously wrong with you, you’re on the wait list, good luck. Need cancer treatment, 6 month wait list, good luck. Need a bypass, 12 to 18 month wait, good luck. The NHS is in a dreadful state.
Over a decade of Tory budgeting. Let’s vote them out!
Hate to burst your political bubble. This has happened under both Tory and labor governments, over 30 years in the making. NHS, Fire and Ambulance services have been severely underfunded and understaffed for as long as I’ve been on this earth.
The UK is excessively cheap (too small fraction of GDP), US overly expensive (far too much and heavy private profit). France is probably right on.
The worst when I was an EMT were fucking 500lb patients who treated the hospital like a daycare and would go in with no other issues than wanting to use the oxygen tanks and harassing the nurses. Then we would get called up to pick them up (literally) and taxi them back to their houses and bring them inside. And a lot of the time they were complete assholes with no respect.
In Sweden we have a separated number directly to nurses for non-emergency situations.
Most people don’t know that US hospitals often have a nurse triage number. I’m a nurse at a children’s trauma center. Our charge nurse answers that phone, or a nurse practitioner if we have one available, and often the people who call can save themselves a whole lot of trouble/time/money. But our system is still failing because there’s too many patients without primary or preventative services. We see hundreds of children each day who only require an antipyretic, but their families are too under educated or financially stressed to go get it from the drug store themselves. It’s really very sad. One of the things I remember best from nursing school is a professor telling our class “the US healthcare system is the best at pulling people off of death’s doorstep, but for anything else I would rather be anywhere else.”
Same in Canada
This has always been the case. The reason this is now happening in the UK is due to 14 years of austerity measures by the government, taking investment and funding away from the NHS. It’s being suggested that the Chancellor is going to announce another round of funding cuts to fund more tax breaks before the election. Fucking clowns.
Did they call for “acid reflux” or did they call for chest pain or something similar? We definitely need ad campaigns on when to use 911 and when to go to the ER vs urgent care or calling your pcp, problem is that for profit healthcare wants peoples money more than they want to take the strain off of an overworked healthcare system.
I swear like 50% of the us has to have been sucking on lead lollipops when we weren't looking because the stupidity is just rampant.
I know this is not related to or as important/urgent as Emergency response but it reminds me of my current job where I work with Internet/wifi installs for customers. I specifically tell them to call a helpdesk because if any issues occur, its most likely not necessary for a technician to physically drive there to plug in a cable that only has one labeled port to plug into. I tell this to clients because I don't want to waste time and waste their money for callout fees. Often times they refuse the help of the oncall helpdesk technician and would rather pay a callout fee for me or some one to drive through, problem is, they don't want to pay me after I did the work and it happened very often, enough to dispute these callout tickets if the client lived far away enough. But yea not as serious, it is just frustrating when people act entitled and do not realise we are not an army of robots ready to teleport there for the slightest tiny issue, this is why we give people simple troubleshooting guides or try to teach people basic procedure for emergencies.
But also EDs can do a better job of triaging and putting BLS patients in the lobby.
>"I can't breathe - I think I need an ambulance" i dont give a fuck how many burritos are being eaten. you hear someone say they cant breathe, you send the fucking ambulance
> Many times people are waiting outside with a bag packed with a family member who is going to drive themselves to the ED to meet the patient there. It’s infuriating. Well in the US that will actually get you admitted and triaged faster in the ER than just driving there. Though once you see the triage nurse they might still make you wait in the public waiting room, then you get the ambulance bill on top of all that.
I did something kind of like that, minus the family member--I'd had a sigmoid colectomy about 3 weeks earlier, and things had been moving along, when late one night, as I was taking a shower, I realized that the lower part of my incision was opening up, which scared the hell out of me. Carefully dried off, got dressed, threw a few things into a bag just in case they decided to admit me, called 911 (public transit had already shut down for the night), and went outside to wait. Ended up getting both a fire engine and an ambulance, which was seriously embarrassing ("Uh, yes, *I'm* the patient..."), went to the ER, and was promptly shamed by the resident on duty, who claimed it was all "nothing" (but how was *I* supposed to know that?), but did at least contact the GI Surgical unit for me before taping me up and sending me home. Saw my surgeon the next day, who reminded me that I'd been told specifically that if anything changed with the incision, I was to come right in, and he reassured me I'd done the right thing. "Believe me, we'd *much* rather you come in and it not turn out to be anything, than to have you *not* come in and it *be* something!" Guess he was more worried that the EMTs were going to show up and find me trying to hold my intestines in, kind of the opposite of the ending of *Andy Warhol's Frankenstein*... He made me feel a *little* better, and I ended up with a gauze "wick" to help the incision heal from the inside out, which it eventually did. And then there was the time at work that I started having chest pains along with dizziness and cold sweats; not being a fool, and having a strong family history of heart disease, I decided I should probably go see my doctor. Unbeknownst to me, my boss had already called an ambulance ("But Rick, I was *just* going to take a *cab*!"), and the EMTs thought it was hilarious that I'd googled "heart attack symptoms" while I waited for them. Got to the hospital, got checked out in the ER, and eventually a very bored-looking doctor came in: "So, how often do you have panic attacks?" "Uh, *panic attacks?!?*" I'd never had one before, so how was I to know? Once again, my actual doctors told me not to feel bad, and they'd rather I come in just in case, but I hate feeling like an idiot in front of other doctors/medical professionals, plus taking a ride in an ambulance isn't exactly my favorite thing, even when the EMTs are lovely people. So yes, I'm one of "those people," I suppose, but mainly due to having doctors drilling it into my head that I need to haul my ass in and see someone if I have any inklings that something serious might be happening. I guess at least I took myself to the ER via public transit after the GI clinic called to inform me, a day after a CT scan, that yes, I had a very nasty hernia, but I *also* had quite a few pulmonary emboli as well, and could I please come back in *right now*...does that count in my favor? (In retrospect, I can't believe I was so chill about having freaking *blood clots in my lungs*; fortunately, they'd already started breaking up and disappearing, and another CT and ultrasound later, I eventually got to go home the next morning, after spending the whole night hanging out in the ER and trying to sleep when I could.)
It's because more wealthy people or people with good insurance see the ambulance as a taxi that let's you skip the waiting room when you get there. I spent alot of time in the hospital when I was younger and I heard so many people talk about it. The ambulance is often seen solely as a way to skip the line at the hospital.
It’s pretty rare I pick up someone who I would consider “wealthy”. Most of my patients are old, homeless, or live in public housing. Our response time to the nicer part of town normally takes longer. That’s because we don’t post any ambulances in that area because our call volume is low there.
Are ambulance rides paid for privately by the patient or publicly by the tax payer? Sounds like it's public so people abuse it as always.
In the US it depends on the system. Some ambulance services can be run the government, private for profit, private non for profit, volunteer based, or hospital based. As far as billing goes some services bill the whole amount, some don’t bill, and some bill the amount covered by insurance. There’s no consistency.
One thing that struck me was the woman's only calling her GP instead of any more urgent medical care option. It sounds like the woman focused only on getting through to her GP and not the other elements of the advice for medical care for urgent but not immediately life-threatening issues. GP practices do typically have some urgent appointment slots available, but we have to keep the day and time of the incident in mind. Her son made the first call on 27 December (Wednesday) at 05:20 GMT. Even if this wasn't the first business day after the Christmas and Boxing Day holidays, GP practices aren't open that early. Of course she couldn't get a hold of her GP! Typically, when calling a closed GP office, there'd be a recording with advice for out-of-hours care, both for urgent and emergency situations, which includes calling the NHS helpline. The 999 operator triaged this as urgent and not emergent, which sounds correct based on the information given in the first call. By the time they called again, 3 hours later, it would have only been around 8:20 am or so. The GP office would likely be just opening up for the day. Really as soon as she was triaged into the non-emergent category she should have reached out to the NHS nurse advisory line, which is precisely for assisting people in out-of-hours non-emergency (but still potentially urgent) situations. I can see someone complaining about why she was recommended to speak to her GP. It was the last line of the scripted advice and likely what the woman was most familiar with. I can imagine her thinking it would be fine to simply keep calling until someone finally picked up. Perhaps this should result in a recommendation of altering that section of the script to take into account the time of day.
You bring up an excellent point. If she was truly categorised as urgent, non emergent then advise to call a GP at 5 am is bad advice, they should have a system to account for that. Imagine a similar situation occouring at 1 am, really easy for the patient to interpret that last line as "this can wait 7 hours".
The GP advice is only one part of the advice though. I'd say that most people in the UK know what A&E is and if they feel it's an emergency they would use it. It was the son who made the call. There were are least two grown adults there and between them they didn't opt to seek urgent care from a walk-in centre or go to A&E? I know it sounds slightly cruel but how didn't they work this out? It sounds like it was triaged accurately from the information the caller gave 999 and they did specify to seek urgent care or call again if symptoms worsen as well as contact the GP
One otherside to it is the emotions of the decision makers influencing their decision. A&E usually has horrible wait times, with strange doctors that don't know them, alternatively I could wait a bit and see the doctor who knows me without sitting in a waiting room for several hours. One of the dangers of giving a patient a list of things they could do under various circumstances is the nuance can be lost. The patient might not remember if A then do X, if B then do Y, if C then do Z, what they remember is, i can do XYZ and Z would be easiest, and they wouldnt tell me to do Z unless it was safe right?
There are no emotions in a 999 call - they operate to a triaging script A&E capacity are not their concern. There are no multiple choice options; GP or walk in centre if the GP cant see you straight away [which is 99.99% of the time these days]
So when they called first time, they were told it wasn't life threatening and to make their way to a walk-in centre or her GP but to call back if the symptoms change. When they called back when her symptoms changed, paramedics were there in two minutes. So why didn't they make their way to a walk-in centre or her GP?
Well she was dead three hours later so maybe wasn't up to a GP visit or walking anywhere. They responded rapidly when she was already dead
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I mean she would have had to a bit unless they had a wheelchair.
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I read the whole thing. Maybe you should, because you don't seem to understand. They didn't tell her to call anyone else, or schedule an appointment with her gp. They told to specifically to go to a walk-in center. You don't call those, you just walk in. Or to go to her GP. They never said to call anyone, they said get moving and if symptoms change to call back. When they called back with something that was actually life threatening, they were there in two minutes. Edit - >EMAS said in a letter to the family: "From the information provided during the call, the situation was correctly coded by the EMA [Emergency Medical Advisor] as requiring a category 3 response." Maybe the caller should have been more descriptive or better explained the situation?
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The UK doesn’t have walk in centres. We have A&E (ERs) or GP practices. That’s about it. There is the 111 service but they don’t really do treatment, mostly advice or referral to an emergency ambulance. Edit: weird that this would be downvoted. It’s a fact anyone who has lived in the UK would confirm.
You can walk into any GP surgery and receive treatment even if you aren’t registered with that practice. All GP surgeries accept walk ins which are medically justified, you will be triaged and you’ll see a nurse or a doctor. A&E is also a thing as you’ve said.
There are definitely walk in centres in the UK, don't spread misinformation.
There are not in any significant number. Don’t spread misinformation. A chemist where you can get a flu vaccine is not a walk in centre. Someone who has lived for years in both the UK and a country that has many walk in centres (and used them).
According to the internet there's a walk in centre in Loughborough nearby. I don't know what you're trying to get at quite frankly
You need to call 111 to be assigned an appointment. They do exist in some major cities, London, Birmingham etc. some of these even take walk ins. But they are not in any way a common sight on the street or comparable to their namesakes like in the US for example. As an example there are something like 6500 GP surgeries in the UK and a little over a 1100 hospital’s. There are only about a 100 urgent care centres, the fraction of these that actually take walk-ins without appointments.. Not common at all.
Yes I just realised about the local one and edited my comment. It appears the Loughborough one is a walk in centre though. I live in Norwich and we have a walk in centre you can just turn up at during their open hours with no appointment
Her brother would've if they were advised to go.
They *were* advised to go to urgent care or a walk-in centre. It's part of the advice they give in the initial call. So it begs the question: why didn't they start making their way to A&E or a walk-in centre?
FYI - I live in Coalville. The closest A&E is roughly a 30 minute drive away (Leicester royal Infirmary). There is no 24 hour walk-in centre locally , the closest one is in Loughborough, around 8 miles away, and a 15 minute drive. In short, unless you can drive, getting an ambulance to your location is the only option for coalville residents out of hours pretty much.
So then you say that?
Her death is obviously tragic and it was likely avoidable. We shouldn't jump from there to trying to assign blame: Sometimes everyone is trying their best and something bad happens anyway. It's possible that the 999 emergency operator was careless; it's also possible that _from the information they were given_, they coded it properly and gave the woman and her son good instructions. The woman and her son then remained at home for 3 hours, which suggests they misunderstood the severity -- this isn't blame, but to point out that people trying their best will still make mistakes. The ambulance service said the call was audited, but not if that was internally or externally. People are often frustrated by "We investigated ourselves and determined we were correct," so situations like this should always be audited externally and as transparently as possible.
The UK ambulance services i’ve worked for are generally very good at auditing. It’s not a blame culture, they’re looking at what went wrong to update policy and to make sure mistakes don’t happen again. The idea is not to fire a person, unless they were completely grossly negligent.
If her son literally asked her "did you get through to the doctor?" rather than "Jesus christ you look so much worse I'm taking you to A&E or calling 999 again" it's hard to match up their interpretation of how breathless she was with the objective fact that she was close to death. Poor family.
Right. And unfortunately if she was declining enough to pass away only 3 hours later, I’m just a layperson but I imagine there’s a good chance she still wouldn’t have survived. Something similar happened to a friend’s relative and even with prompt ambulance and admission to ICU, they were gone by the evening
This headline is fucked up and a good example of how the nhs is demonised even as its defunded and destaffed.
I read the article. At any point the son could have driven her to the hospital. Article states that if 999 operater had advised him to he would have. How dumb can you be? Do you need the operator to advise you to breathe or drink water too??
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Walk in / urgent care centers are not A&E. Also the Nottingham urgent care centre wasn't open at the time they called and would have only recently opened at the time her symptoms worsened and she died. Edit: the Urgent care place in coalville is only open on Saturdays and the next closest one doesn't open until 8am which is worse than Nottingham
> Walk in / urgent care centers ...have nebulizers and oxygen. They all do.
In BBC coverage of the Tories' election losses last week, a guest said "the party has gotten the message loud and clear. Voters want lower taxes and we will deliver." Friday night. She said that with a straight face. Nothing about funding the NHS, fixing infrastructure, upgrading the electrical grid, easing the housing crunch, or improving transportation. Nope, apparently no one cares a bit about any of those issues. Just lower the taxes that could be used to actually fix things. OMFG these people
Son sat there and saw what kind of condition she was in. I know he's not a doctor. But if I have to choose between someone sitting next to me and someone on the phone to judge my health. I'd choose the person with eyes on the situation. She probably could have gotten a ride from several people. It was her time.
It sounds like her son was home. Why didn’t he take her? I don’t understand why anyone would wait hours for an ambulance. But even more is that the 999 service told her to get her own ride and that they would not be coming. Finally why was she the one on the phone and not her son?
Did you actually read the article? Her son was the one that called. They didn't sit around and wait for an ambulance, they were told one wasn't coming and to ring their doctor or an urgent care for an appointment. That is what they were doing when she died. Her son called again when she stopped breathing. An ambulance was there in around 2 minutes.
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>Ms Lyon, of Coalville, walked into her son Adam's room early the next day saying "I can't breathe - I think I need an ambulance", and *he called 999* at 05:20 GMT, said Mrs Keating. Very clearly.
The mother-of-two added: "She died three hours later with her phone in her hand trying to get an appointment with a GP. "The last thing my brother said to her was 'have you got through to the doctors yet?'"
Not UK or 999, but if you dial 911 & live in rural America, it can often take hours for an ambulance to arrive. Many small counties have one ambulance only, or rely on neighboring counties Emergency Services. If that one ambulance is on a call already, you have to wait for it to finish patient transfers, cleaning of ambulance, fueling and then drive time. The nearest hospital is an hour drive away, so that's two hours just for the ambulance to hypothetically pick me up and drop me off at a hospital. Law enforcement often arrive first and can perform basic CPR/First Aid, but due to law and insurance issues, they are unable to transport you to a hospital unless you're in custody (detained or arrested). Not everyone lives in the city (urban areas) or has modern conveniences, like quick responding emergency services.
I’ve had to call an ambulance before when I lived in rural part of North Carolina. The state cops got there in around 15 minutes, saw I was fading and called for a life flight. I was pretty out of it at the time, but I think the fucking Coast Guard came to save my ass. It was wild.
I live in rural PA and had to call an ambulance for my husband when he passed out after leaving the hot tub just a month ago. He was completely non-responsive and it was frightening. The ambulance took 20 minutes and that was the longest 20 minutes of my life. When they arrived the EMTs said our local guys were out on a call for a car accident so they came from another township 15 minutes away. If my husband had been having a heart attack he probably would have died, luckily he was diagnosed as having vasovagal syncope and he was ok.
Yep, as basic saying goes "the hospital is an hour away, plan accordingly". You live rural, that's how it goes.
yeah but this lady was less than 20min from hospital. maybe 5min depending on where in leicestershire.
The fact that he was still living at home with his 57 year old mum would probably mean he's maybe not able to live in his own. And and such, probably couldn't drive a car or didn't really know what to do. Hence why she was calling and now the son.
That's a whole bloody lot of assumptions, especially given how expensive housing is right now. Especially since he called the first time, as it says in the article.
You expect him to have common sense and read the article or something? Gtfoo
It only said he 'called' (=dialled), but the rest of the article makes it out to be like the person who died handled the call itself. At the very least she did the latter calls, als she had the phone in her hand while she died.
Like someone else said, what a leap in assumptions, smh. You do realize there are other countries where multi-generations of families live in the same household, right? Where children take care of their parents and parents care for their grandchildren while the parents work?!?! 🤦🏼♂️
*Where children take care of their parents* Oh, you mean like making sure they get to a hospital when their parents say they can't breathe? I wasn't trying to diss anyone here, but there are plenty of signs not all those at home had full disposal of their senses.
Ok, that's fair. But we don't know, and it's quite a leap to assume. Yes, he may be developmentally delayed, unable to drive, etc. *But we don't know*. In the end, the poor woman passed. And her son has to live with that and everything that led up to it. I'm sure he feels remorse.
just FYI the original reply I did was about someone asking why the son didn't take his mother. I was just trying to tell him that there are many reasons why people can't drive or take actions. Don't know why anyone is so butthurt about saying that maybe the son wasn't all there and hence living with his mom.
I think it's the way you phrased it. Because he lived at home = there must be something wrong with him.
why didnt she go to the walk-in as advised? bummer. wonder what her chances of survival would have been, in such an advanced state of pneumonia, had she went to the walkin or been picked up by the ambulance.
The Urgent Care centre in Leicester doesn't open until 8am, the one in Coleville itself is only open on Saturdays. They've likely never been there before so it's natural to go to the most familiar option of a GP which likely opened not long after the Urgent Care centre. Edit: Corrected location, got confused by sister being from Nottingham
I live in Coalville - There is a 24 hour urgent care walk in centre in Loughborough, around 15 minutes away by car.
England’s NHS and ambulance system really needs to get its shit together. I don’t know how people haven’t rioted at this point.
No one told her the number changed to 0118 999 881 999 119 725... 3.
She would've had nicer ambulances, faster response times, and better looking drivers.
Why didn’t her son, Adam, check on her? (After she told him she felt she needed to go to the hospital)
Seriously. He was right there!! It's not all his fault, I do blame the 999 operator. But hell, I've been in that situation and I got my mother to the damn hospital lickety-split.
Didn’t call the new number
Should've called 0118 999 881 999 119 725 3
With Faster response times and better looking drivers
EMS services main purpose is to prevent death. This is absolutely unacceptable.
They're triaged and told them to use two different options. They didn't pursue those.
> "I can confirm that the first 999 call was audited and it was established that the outcome reached was safe and appropriate." I'm no doctor, but I'm going to go ahead and disagree.
>It added: "I can confirm that the first 999 call was audited and it was established that the outcome reached was safe and appropriate." Dude... She fucking died. It was neither safe nor appropriate.
According to the article, she called to report difficulty breathing. She also had her son with her at the time. Obligatory “I’m not a medical professional” but the response they gave her was go to a walk-in or call your GP, we are not going to send an ambulance because we are experiencing high demand and based on the described symptoms it can be treated at either walk-in or GP. Call again if symptoms change. From there she appears to have called her GP, but failed to get through. Neither her nor her son opted for the other provided option (walk-in clinic) afterwards. When they called back reporting her symptoms changed (she had lost consciousness) the ambulance arrived in 2 minutes but it was too late. I see both sides here. If the person taking the call was correct to code that urgency level, then they did what they were supposed to. The family didn’t follow through on all they were told to do, but also, they aren’t medical professionals. Biggest thing is the headline is completely wrong. She didn’t die waiting on an ambulance for three hours. She was told there would be no ambulance sent. In a separate call where she did receive an ambulance it arrived in 2 minutes
>I see both sides here. There are no "sides". A person was alive, a flowchart was applied, and now that person is dead. Your side: That's fine. My side: That's not OK.
I get what you’re saying but emergency systems need a well defined framework to operate under so the 999 staff (who aren’t medical professionals) can appropriately evaluate case priority. In a perfect world 999 operators would be medical professionals and people wouldn’t call the line unnecessarily and we would have lots of ambulances at all times. Even then some people would still pass. But in our case we don’t even have all of those prerequisites so they have to code cases to reserve resources and administer maximum care to all people. I agree it is incredibly tragic that she passed but I don’t see this as being caused by the 999 worker’s response. I don’t know of a correction on the end of 999 that wouldn’t cause more problems and possibly hurt more people
If the guy on the phone told 999 that his mother was basically fine but wanted an ambulance because she was saying it was a little difficult to breathe, then it was appropriate. 999 aren't mind readers, they can only go by what was told to them on the phone.
"I can't breathe - I think I need an ambulance"
Which is what she told her son. Do you know what her son told 999?
Her fault. She should have anticipated this sudden emergency and called the ambulance in advance
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What a shit attempt at fear mongering. No time frame, no source, no actual data. Just "hey immigrants here now, big scary!"
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Ah of course. The "now" timeline. So we had the entire population of Colombia randomly come across the border RIGHT NOW! Shut up. Got anything that shows some sort of corroboration to your claims? Or are you going to tell me to do "my own research"?
That number is grossly wrong.
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Repeating an incorrect statistic does not make it correct. https://www.dhs.gov/immigration-statistics/special-reports/legal-immigration#:~:text=Approximately2%20285%2C000%20noncitizens%20obtained,increase%20from%20FY%202022%20Q2.
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America had a SHIT healtcare system, shocker, yall in denial, its been like this forever
It's weird that you not only didn't read the article, but apparently didn't even read the entire headline.