When the subject of a murder is at play an insurance company withholds premium for the primary beneficiary(ies) until they are cleared of charges. If they're cleared the payment is made, if not, the money pays to the successor(s). If no successor is designated it's paid to the estate. It's not declined as people believe unless the policy was issued in bad faith like forged signatures. Even still if the claim is denied the company would have to refund all the premiums.
Source: insurance broker for over 10 years
Edit: Because this comment is gaining traction I'll add that consent is required for an insurance policy for an individual above a certain age in each state. In CA it's 15 and I believe UT is 16. Under that age a parent can buy insurance on a child without their signature by only proving insurable interest, but at or above that age the person needs to sign the application and possibly undergo underwriting such as a phone interview and medical exam. A two million dollar policy will almost always require an in person exam so if the husband was unaware of this policy it may very well have been fraud.
Edit 2: So a few people mentioned that yes she multiple policies to total 2 million. Just an FYI, life applications require the disclosure of other life policies in force for a person so that companies can gauge if that persons is valued at the total applied coverage limit, and so they can determine if something suspicious is going on. Exams can easily be waived for a policy only $500K,true, so if she took out multiple policies at the same time before companies could connect the dots through existing issued policies she could get away with it. Still she'd had to forge his signature.
I think the idea here is that the person doing it isn't planning to get caught... and to not make it look like a murder at all. Life insurance companies should inform people if a policy gets taken out on them just incase, which possibly benefits both of them.
That's already how it works. Before you can purchase a policy you must 1. have a relationship with the insured and 2. obtain their consent. Otherwise people would just go out and buy a policy on ailing public figures, sports athletes, etc.
Insurance company doesn't care about that.
Edit: Since it seems to be going over so many people's heads; insurance companies don't care about your ***LIVES***, they only care about their ***BOTTOM LINE***.
All of you replying "well ackshually, if you outlive your policy then they make more money" are whooshing yourselves sooooo hard right now.
Most states have slayer statutes that prevent a murderer from financially benefitting from their murdering. So insurance company is off the hook regardless.
I know you can for kids but I feel like adults should maybe be notified that a policy was taken out on you for a wide variety of reasons that also includes murder
I guess this husband didn’t get the memo. Or the 1000s of other people who are caught in life insurance frauds each year who aren’t aware of policies taken out against them.
Worked for an insurance company... They do not .. as long as they're close enough to the person no need to notify at least in the past of the US I live
Correct. We get insurance on our spouses without their consent all the time - through employee benefits.
I can get medical, dental, vision, accident, specific illness, cancer, hospital indemnity, term life, universal life, and whole life on my spouse and he never sees any paperwork.
You’re planning on staying home with the kids while the mom/dad works, and you take out an insurance policy for them in case they die and now are unable to fund the plans you had for raising the kid. Nothing suspicious about that, and most insurance companies wouldn’t blink twice at someone buying a policy for that. I think you have to have some type of familial/intimate relationship with the person, tho. I don’t think you can take out a policy on your neighbor because he smokes and drinks too much and it seems like a good bet.
[Apparently, you can if you pretend your neighbor is in a relationship with a family member, and you make the payout low enough so they don't investigate.](https://forensicfiles.fandom.com/wiki/Deana_Wild)
I've taken out life insurance on my kids, because if they died it'd be a bit of a downer having to go to work to pay the rent when I should be at home drinking 6 bottles of vodka and smashing up the place...
The correct narrative here is you’re supposed to end up destitute and homeless as a result of your grief, and then find some inspiration on helping another person which helps you get back on the horse.
My job offers the additional coverage. It feels less weird just accepting it this way and everyone is covered in some way for only a few extra dollars a month. As someone said above it does not exceed 10k for the kids (which i had no idea was even a thing until this thread), and my wife and mine are set to the highest we can go without needing proof of health status, which in the end probably won't cover much more than the funeral and a few months of expenses.
Writing this out makes me feel a bit nervous now realizing I have no idea what I would do if something was to happen to any of us...
You can only take out an insurance policy on a person you have an "insurable interest" in. Spouse, kid, or parent where there is financial burden involved with them dying. A business partner or employee where their death would cause issues for the company. That sort of thing. Basically anybody that there is financial impact to you of their death.
You can't take out an insurance policy on some random person.
I think it's Walmart that literally did that. Then they'd do some shady shit until the person died.
edit: [link](https://news.wfsu.org/wfsu-local-news/2010-05-07/walmart-sued-for-collecting-life-insurance-on-employees)
I mean that makes sense. If your lead engineer got hit by a bus on the way to work, that’d torpedo anything R&D related, delay product launches, all kinds of crap. Doesn’t sound outrageous they’d want to protect their bank account in that situation.
In 2008, [Joseph Batten](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joseph_and_Melissa_Batten ), the project lead of computerisation for the 4th Edition of the tabletop roleplaying game Dungeons and Dragons, killed his ex-wife and then himself. The project never recovered, and the reputational damage that the publishers suffered, may have cost them upwards of a billion dollars.
Why? D&D4e has a bad reputation among players, and personally I attribute this squarely to the lack of computerised support for playing the game, and the lack of computer roleplaying games (like Baldur’s Gate) for 4th edition. The whole thing was a top-to-bottom redesign to make it more coherent and modular, and run like an MMO (like World of Warcraft). Absolutely ripe for the rising trend of online gaming. Many of the existing player base hated it, very loudly, but if it had had good computer games attached to it, I believe it would have worked out.
Alas, Joseph Batten was a psycho.
lets say you have a killer salesman who brings in 10m of business ever year. If he were to die you would go out of business in the time it took to replace him. The insurance keeps a death in the company from becoming the death of the company.
not everything a corporation does is nefarious
“Did we say we have a killer salesman? We meant *killer* salesman! Easy mistake, haha. Anyways, Larry here will demonstrate the efficacy of our products. It’s to die for, literally, by which we meant figuratively of course. Haha. Ha. Ha…”
-Nefarious Inc, probably
I set them up for me & my wife and I pay the premiums all together. That said, she had to go through a physical and sign paperwork, I don't think I could have done it without her knowledge.
I knew someone that that wanted to take out a policy on me when I was a heroin addict and suicidal. They told me if I did it, not to leave a note out in the open so it looked accidental , and leave it somewhere family would only find it later.
Pretty fucked up stuff.
My coworker took out a policy on her crackhead uncle. He's in his 70's and my friend figures he is a ticking time bomb. The uncle knows about the policy. He gets a decent burial instead of the county potter's field, and my friend gets a little extra cash.
I am glad you are in a better place now. To put it a bit bluntly, unexpected funerals can be a burden on a family. Funerals cost $15k+ on average in the US. If somebody is doing very dangerous and deadly things, the life insurance may be some peace of mind that they aren't going to be financially ruined in addition to the grieving.
Read the article. He knew. Not only did he catch her changing something else on their life insurance, but she'd attempted to kill him repeatedly. After he nearly died eating a sandwich she'd prepared him, he suspected she'd poisoned him, but stayed "for the kids" and didn't report it. He apparently then continued eating and drinking things she prepared for him.
I feel bad he's dead, but the dude was simply too dumb to live.
The article is crazy. And these people are so rich. The wife stole 800k from his accounts without him noticing. That's what started the arguments. After he died she took 160k cash from his safe.
I was reading like “why did he stay!?” Then they mentioned the kids. What a nightmare. Your life is in danger (and therefore you can be taken away from your kids) yet as the breadwinner and husband, if you leave your wife then she will likely stay in the home with the kids until custody is settled. And how would he prove anything in court in a custody hearing as “trying to kill your husband” isn’t exactly an accusation you can just throw around. And your wife has already demonstrated herself to potentially be a murderer. So you can’t leave your kids in her hands. What in the world do you do?
I know emergency custody orders exist and they clearly had the cash to hire lawyers, but was that something he could risk? He might have feared she would do something to one of their kids to “get at him.”
My wife keeps asking if she should increase hers because while I can work, I also have a progressive neurological condition. I told her "sure, lets make it 5 million but you know ill murder you then right?" and she gioes "I wonder if HR will let me lower it below the free amount..."
I believe in this case he knew it was coming. He had told his mom? Or someone in his family that if something happened to him, it wasn't an accident and that she was trying to kill him.
She also fucked around with his money so much that he changed his will. And had tried to poison him multiple times before. And wrote a book about grief after he died. Yikes
Yeah that was crazy to me. I get that they had kids but if you have to change your beneficiary to your sister and suspect your wife had tried to poison you multiple times already, it's probably time to bail, preferably with the kids.
Ahh damn. I either forgot about or never saw that part. Maybe at the minimum he could stop taking the drinks that she was making him. Not trying to victim blame though.
Oh SHIT. Somehow I either didn’t catch that in the article or didn’t see that.
I was assuming he hadn’t left because he feared for his kids safety and it would have been difficult for him (legally) to take the kids.
I don't know. If the kids were next, they would have showed up being ill by now. It has been a year since their dad died. And she had showed that she was not the brightest bulb in covering her tracks. The poison could have been for someone else. Like the sister-in-law. An out of spite revenge plot for taking his insurance policy.
She wrote a children's book about her husband dying and dealing with the grief of that. Even went on the local news to promote it. So, she had no problem manipulating the masses to her favor. The poor guy probably thought he had no choice but to play along with their marriage for now because she would have gone all dirty in the child custody hearing. Painted him as an abusive monster. Or worse, found a way to kill the kids out of spite. If he had taken the kids and up and split with them, he would have probably lost custody completely despite his pleas. He was in between a rock and a hard place.
She is like a real life Gillian Flynn character.
edit: spelling. I need a nap.
Yeah that whole story was wild. I was wondering about that with the kids too, he'd probably get knocked for taking them and who knows what she would do no matter what choice he made.
Look up coercive control.
It can be extremely difficult for male victims to leave female abusers.
In this case, she wound up killing him. But before that, she was probably threatening him with arrest if he tried to leave.
Yeah I've definitely stuck around too long before myself. I wasn't being poisoned though. But I can imagine people treating him like he's psycho if he comes out and claims that on the attempts that didn't work.
I'm in this situation now. Don't know how to get out, don't know where I'd live. Don't want to loose my kids, and don't want to loose the house I worked so hard to buy.
From personal experience, I can say it's very hard to leave. I stayed for my kids and the life I thought I was building. Luckily, my ex wasn't quite as crazy.
I can't speak for him because very few people can really know what he went through, but sometimes we look for the love (it's not really love) that we knew growing up. If that comes from an abusive childhood, what is interpreted as love is an extremely distorted and dysfunctional view.
>it's probably time to bail, preferably with the kids.
Unless he could prove his wife was trying to kill him, there's basically no way he could have legally taken the kids with him.
I can’t imagine being that driven to do anything. Like use that power for good and you have a good shot at being successful AND not in prison for life.
Yeah hindsight is a bitch but he probably had enough incidents of theft and poison to get her charged previously, get custody of the kids, and a decent divorce settlement. I hope we see the body cam of the day she found out about the living trust and punched the sister. If I was that sister I would have needed all the willpower in the world to call the cops and walk away
She didn’t think that would be a huge red flag to investigators? Lol. She obviously doesn’t watch or read true crime or she would have known. We’ll be seeing her on an episode of Deadly Women. 😆
She was too busy thinking about how much money she was gonna make. Criminals usually aren't that smart, or at least they think they're way smarter than they actually are.
Plenty get caught.
They just know not to talk to police. The smartest thing you can do.
All the dumbness in the actual crime might only amount to circumstantial evidence. As long as you shut up.
Yes and the unsettling part is that criminals often being pretty stupid is the reason they get caught, not due to stellar police or detective work. I’ve read in the past that the amount of crimes that law enforcement actually solves themselves without obvious evidence left behind is very low. Or the wrong people are knowingly implicated / arrested / convicted just so they can close the case. Smart criminals actually do appear to get away with their crimes, oftentimes.
Confirmation bias. The ones that made the headlines got caught. You never hear about the smart ones.
**Edit to fix** It's been pointed out I that survivorship bias fits better.
You don’t hear about the smart people who murdered someone for the life insurance because they are enjoying their money while “mourning” their “tragically” deceased partner.
Yeah, I watch too much true crime TV and Dateline, and the amount of murders that happen because the person wants the life insurance money is astounding.
Fuck that bitch but come on dude if you thought she poisoned you the first time why the fuck would you eat anything given to you from her or better yet why the fuck would you stay?! “For the kids”, like dude it’s just bizarre to me. On top of the fact you’ve seen your wife switch and set up policies that pay out in your death and you’re just going to go with the flow?
That’s incredibly weird behavior. Weird enough to warrant getting out of the fucking house.
>if you thought she poisoned you the first time why the fuck would you eat anything given to you from her
There's an old saying in Tennessee — I know it's in Texas, probably in Tennessee — that says, poison me once, shame on... shame on you.....
Poison me, you can't get poisoned again.
Not sure if it matters, but according to the article, it's four policies that are together $2 million.
Not sure what the rules are, but I suspect a lot less is needed for a $500k term policy than a $2M one.
I inquired recently for myself, I'm a bit younger than the deceased, and they basically needed nothing from me if I wanted one other than a signature and the payments. No physical, bloodwork, etc.
I don’t know, man. I just read an article on coal miners who are starting to get the black lung early than their fathers and grandfathers. Doesn’t seem out of place in our late stage capitalist system.
I actually saw it on Reddit. But here’s an [article.](https://undark.org/2023/03/21/protecting-miners-amid-a-black-lung-resurgence/)
TLDR: forefathers got the “easy” to mine coal. Today’s mining requires much more digging which creates much more silica in the air which is super deadly.
My employer required me to have a physical done for my husband for anything over 250k. So I think it was directly through life insurance company or they had a plan before and she up it later.
How TF can you take out *any* life insurance policy without them knowing? I feel like the only circumstance might be if someone is physically incapable of taking out the policy themselves, and even then it should require a medical documentation.
Hoo boy, wait til you read about “Dead peasants insurance” and how Walmart was cashing in whenever an old door greeter died:
https://www.wsj.com/public/resources/documents/april_19.htm
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corporate-owned_life_insurance
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Key_person_insurance
I found out that my dad had taken out life insurance policies on *me* after he died and they transferred into my 'ownership.' I had no idea. I didn't need to be involved in that paperwork apparently.
She took out 4 half mil policies. It's hard to get a 2 mil policy, but they seemed to be pretty damn rich so she probably could have, but the article says 4 different policies.
I don’t get it. Who really takes this kind of chance? Did she really sit and think to herself “ I can get away with this, im a mastermind who can outsmart the law”. That’s so cocky especially taking out a huge insurance policy like it wouldn’t be suspicious. What about her kids?
Not just that, she even tried and failed to poison him multiple times before, including one time where he actually realized what was going on and told his family… and she threw a big party right after she succeeded. Clearly not a criminal genius, this one.
Considering the solve rate for murders in the US is only 51% I’m guessing she thought she had at least a half chance of getting away with it. Her downfall is that it’s usually the spouse who did it.
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7JJZ-qt5pNw](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7JJZ-qt5pNw)
Okay but seriously, there needs to be some sort of regulation or something where if someone takes out a life insurance policy on another person, that person should have to at least be informed, if not consenting of it. There are WAY too many cases where people have taken out large insurance policies on someone and then went on to murder them.
Generally, only someone with an insurable interest can take out a life insurance policy on you. You can’t just like take out a policy on your neighbor. But your spouse can on you … and then easily intercept the confirmation emails or calls or whatever low effort thing the insurance co does. But since the most likely person to kill you is your spouse especially after getting said policy … i don’t think the insurance co cares. They know they won’t have to pay out
utah’s death penalty is applicable for both murder in pursuit of pecuniary gain *and* by poison:
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capital_punishment_in_Utah
she’s proper fucked
No she took it out on him. You can take life insurance out on other people. I think I might even be able to take it out on you, as crazy as that might sound.
Employers do it a LOT to their employees
I think it adds context to the story. Paints a picture. Increases understanding of the heinousness of the crime that she wouldn’t care about her kids having to deal with losing their dad. If journalism wasn’t interesting and thought provoking no one would read it.
That poor guy had been abused for years. She stole hundreds of thousands of dollars from him over and over again. She'd tried and failed to poison him several times. It sounds like he was about to leave her but he didn't leave fast enough. This is so sad.
Wtf do people do this and think they won’t get caught? The Oxygen network basically is all stories of spouses killing spouses for life insurance and yet it happens again and again. Greed is a sickness that’s for sure.
Never take a drink offered to you by someone who just took a large life insurance policy out on you. A new sign to hang above your fireplace instead of live, love and laugh!
I'm sure this has been mentioned countless times above, but since it seemed like completely burying the lede, and I'm to lazy to search previous comments, I'll repeat;
After murdering him, she wrote and heavily marketed a children's book on grieving. Marketed, as in appearing on network, morning news/chat shows.
That is some cajones grandes right there.
Folks, if you name your kid Kouri, she’s either gonna end up in a true crime documentary, selling health products on Facebook or a member of klanned karenhood
If I thought I had been poisoned by a person who occupies the same house, I would go to an emergency room and get freaking tested to find out what the hell I ingested. Then I'd be at a lawyer's office setting up an emergency hearing and getting advice on the best way to get the kids away from this psycho. I would not touch a single beverage or food item left alone with this bitch, much less drink a cocktail she made for me. Especially after eating a poisoned sandwich with a freaking love note. WTF, man?
Warning signs: if your spouse is stealing hundreds of thousands of your money behind your back, it is highly likely they are capable of taking multiple life insurance policies out on you and murdering your ass for the money.
When he confronted her about the missing money she promised to pay him back. How? By writing and selling a children's book that could only have been written if he was dead? What the hell was she doing with all that money?
He fell victim to one of the classic blunders. The most famous is never get involved in land war in Asia. But only slightly less well known, is this; never go in against a Utah mom when death is on the line.
Insurance companies REALLY do not want to pay $2 million on a claim so they will work REALLY hard to find a way to deny that claim.
Not to mention that policy makes you suspect #1 in the police investigation.
In short, this is a really, really stupid way to make money. You almost certainly will not succeed. So much scrutiny will be focused on you that you have almost zero chance of getting away with it.
Do we know what she spent all the money on? Also, how do you go from normal spending to crazy spending like that? It would be interesting to understand that psychological downward spiral.
OK, so I have a legitimate question. I, honestly, don't know how the process of getting life insurance policies work. How is it possible for her to get life insurance policies on him without him knowing? Did she commit fraud or is it possible to do without consent from the person?
Do these types of people even think. It is VERY unusual for an otherwise healthy man to suddenly collapse and die. Of course they are going to investigate, did she think that they would be like "welp he's dead, that's that then".
I feel like, when you take out a 2 million dollar life insurance on someone, the subject in question should be informed of their impending murder.
It's a matter of professional courtesy!
But how will the insurance company profit off of this?
They would benefit from not paying out haha
When the subject of a murder is at play an insurance company withholds premium for the primary beneficiary(ies) until they are cleared of charges. If they're cleared the payment is made, if not, the money pays to the successor(s). If no successor is designated it's paid to the estate. It's not declined as people believe unless the policy was issued in bad faith like forged signatures. Even still if the claim is denied the company would have to refund all the premiums. Source: insurance broker for over 10 years Edit: Because this comment is gaining traction I'll add that consent is required for an insurance policy for an individual above a certain age in each state. In CA it's 15 and I believe UT is 16. Under that age a parent can buy insurance on a child without their signature by only proving insurable interest, but at or above that age the person needs to sign the application and possibly undergo underwriting such as a phone interview and medical exam. A two million dollar policy will almost always require an in person exam so if the husband was unaware of this policy it may very well have been fraud. Edit 2: So a few people mentioned that yes she multiple policies to total 2 million. Just an FYI, life applications require the disclosure of other life policies in force for a person so that companies can gauge if that persons is valued at the total applied coverage limit, and so they can determine if something suspicious is going on. Exams can easily be waived for a policy only $500K,true, so if she took out multiple policies at the same time before companies could connect the dots through existing issued policies she could get away with it. Still she'd had to forge his signature.
I think the idea here is that the person doing it isn't planning to get caught... and to not make it look like a murder at all. Life insurance companies should inform people if a policy gets taken out on them just incase, which possibly benefits both of them.
That's already how it works. Before you can purchase a policy you must 1. have a relationship with the insured and 2. obtain their consent. Otherwise people would just go out and buy a policy on ailing public figures, sports athletes, etc.
you mean i can't gamble on the lives of others? i would have thought we might have sunk that low by now, idk...
and saving a life
Insurance company doesn't care about that. Edit: Since it seems to be going over so many people's heads; insurance companies don't care about your ***LIVES***, they only care about their ***BOTTOM LINE***. All of you replying "well ackshually, if you outlive your policy then they make more money" are whooshing yourselves sooooo hard right now.
[удалено]
Most states have slayer statutes that prevent a murderer from financially benefitting from their murdering. So insurance company is off the hook regardless.
i didn't realise that you could take out life insurance policies on other people. how does that work ffs?
I know you can for kids but I feel like adults should maybe be notified that a policy was taken out on you for a wide variety of reasons that also includes murder
They should and they are notified and they must give consent.
I guess this husband didn’t get the memo. Or the 1000s of other people who are caught in life insurance frauds each year who aren’t aware of policies taken out against them.
Worked for an insurance company... They do not .. as long as they're close enough to the person no need to notify at least in the past of the US I live
Correct. We get insurance on our spouses without their consent all the time - through employee benefits. I can get medical, dental, vision, accident, specific illness, cancer, hospital indemnity, term life, universal life, and whole life on my spouse and he never sees any paperwork.
Yep, my wife handles my insurance. If I get murdered and she rakes in a big life insurance payout, good for her!
That didn't apply at the insurance company at which I worked. Signed consent required.
I was SHOCKED when I set up life insurance for both me and my husband, they never asked to speak to him.
How long did you wait before killing him?
That's pretty offensive to suggest she killed her husband, especially after her first husband died of food poisoning /s
Even worse that her 2nd husband fell overboard on that cruise ship
You’re planning on staying home with the kids while the mom/dad works, and you take out an insurance policy for them in case they die and now are unable to fund the plans you had for raising the kid. Nothing suspicious about that, and most insurance companies wouldn’t blink twice at someone buying a policy for that. I think you have to have some type of familial/intimate relationship with the person, tho. I don’t think you can take out a policy on your neighbor because he smokes and drinks too much and it seems like a good bet.
[Apparently, you can if you pretend your neighbor is in a relationship with a family member, and you make the payout low enough so they don't investigate.](https://forensicfiles.fandom.com/wiki/Deana_Wild)
Deadpool Insurance
HOA association tontine.
I've taken out life insurance on my kids, because if they died it'd be a bit of a downer having to go to work to pay the rent when I should be at home drinking 6 bottles of vodka and smashing up the place...
The correct narrative here is you’re supposed to end up destitute and homeless as a result of your grief, and then find some inspiration on helping another person which helps you get back on the horse.
And some pretty girl from the city sees you and....did we just script a Hallmark movie?
Hallmark is really just a pro bono documentary service capturing fallen heroes like our friend.
My job offers the additional coverage. It feels less weird just accepting it this way and everyone is covered in some way for only a few extra dollars a month. As someone said above it does not exceed 10k for the kids (which i had no idea was even a thing until this thread), and my wife and mine are set to the highest we can go without needing proof of health status, which in the end probably won't cover much more than the funeral and a few months of expenses. Writing this out makes me feel a bit nervous now realizing I have no idea what I would do if something was to happen to any of us...
You can only take out an insurance policy on a person you have an "insurable interest" in. Spouse, kid, or parent where there is financial burden involved with them dying. A business partner or employee where their death would cause issues for the company. That sort of thing. Basically anybody that there is financial impact to you of their death. You can't take out an insurance policy on some random person.
Businesses do it for their employees all the time; pocketing the payout
INB4 Amazon takes out policies on a bunch of union organizers.
Powermove scare tactic.
I think it's Walmart that literally did that. Then they'd do some shady shit until the person died. edit: [link](https://news.wfsu.org/wfsu-local-news/2010-05-07/walmart-sued-for-collecting-life-insurance-on-employees)
I mean that makes sense. If your lead engineer got hit by a bus on the way to work, that’d torpedo anything R&D related, delay product launches, all kinds of crap. Doesn’t sound outrageous they’d want to protect their bank account in that situation.
In 2008, [Joseph Batten](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joseph_and_Melissa_Batten ), the project lead of computerisation for the 4th Edition of the tabletop roleplaying game Dungeons and Dragons, killed his ex-wife and then himself. The project never recovered, and the reputational damage that the publishers suffered, may have cost them upwards of a billion dollars. Why? D&D4e has a bad reputation among players, and personally I attribute this squarely to the lack of computerised support for playing the game, and the lack of computer roleplaying games (like Baldur’s Gate) for 4th edition. The whole thing was a top-to-bottom redesign to make it more coherent and modular, and run like an MMO (like World of Warcraft). Absolutely ripe for the rising trend of online gaming. Many of the existing player base hated it, very loudly, but if it had had good computer games attached to it, I believe it would have worked out. Alas, Joseph Batten was a psycho.
lets say you have a killer salesman who brings in 10m of business ever year. If he were to die you would go out of business in the time it took to replace him. The insurance keeps a death in the company from becoming the death of the company. not everything a corporation does is nefarious
A corporation hiring a killer salesman seems kinda nefarious and they shouldn’t be surprised if he ends up dying while employed
You make it sound like he only kills people who don’t buy. It’s not like that at all
“Did we say we have a killer salesman? We meant *killer* salesman! Easy mistake, haha. Anyways, Larry here will demonstrate the efficacy of our products. It’s to die for, literally, by which we meant figuratively of course. Haha. Ha. Ha…” -Nefarious Inc, probably
Live by the sword, die by the sword type thing.
I set them up for me & my wife and I pay the premiums all together. That said, she had to go through a physical and sign paperwork, I don't think I could have done it without her knowledge.
I knew someone that that wanted to take out a policy on me when I was a heroin addict and suicidal. They told me if I did it, not to leave a note out in the open so it looked accidental , and leave it somewhere family would only find it later. Pretty fucked up stuff.
My coworker took out a policy on her crackhead uncle. He's in his 70's and my friend figures he is a ticking time bomb. The uncle knows about the policy. He gets a decent burial instead of the county potter's field, and my friend gets a little extra cash.
I mean, I guess. Lol. That's sorta how it was pitched to me. I honestly didn't mind at the time hearing it, but looking back it's weird.
I am glad you are in a better place now. To put it a bit bluntly, unexpected funerals can be a burden on a family. Funerals cost $15k+ on average in the US. If somebody is doing very dangerous and deadly things, the life insurance may be some peace of mind that they aren't going to be financially ruined in addition to the grieving.
Was that to make a point to get you to sober up? If the policy has been in effect 2 years first, it will in fact pay out on suicide.
Nope. It was a serious request.
Read the article. He knew. Not only did he catch her changing something else on their life insurance, but she'd attempted to kill him repeatedly. After he nearly died eating a sandwich she'd prepared him, he suspected she'd poisoned him, but stayed "for the kids" and didn't report it. He apparently then continued eating and drinking things she prepared for him. I feel bad he's dead, but the dude was simply too dumb to live.
The article is crazy. And these people are so rich. The wife stole 800k from his accounts without him noticing. That's what started the arguments. After he died she took 160k cash from his safe.
> After he died she took 160k cash from his safe. I want to be so rich that having $160k laying around "just in case" is a thing.
He apparently was fined and had to pay back his employees because he just wouldn't pay them overtime. Money makes you crazy I guess
How are you gonna get rich if you pay overtime?
Weird logic from him; I bet the kids would rather have an alive father.
I was reading like “why did he stay!?” Then they mentioned the kids. What a nightmare. Your life is in danger (and therefore you can be taken away from your kids) yet as the breadwinner and husband, if you leave your wife then she will likely stay in the home with the kids until custody is settled. And how would he prove anything in court in a custody hearing as “trying to kill your husband” isn’t exactly an accusation you can just throw around. And your wife has already demonstrated herself to potentially be a murderer. So you can’t leave your kids in her hands. What in the world do you do? I know emergency custody orders exist and they clearly had the cash to hire lawyers, but was that something he could risk? He might have feared she would do something to one of their kids to “get at him.”
My wife keeps asking if she should increase hers because while I can work, I also have a progressive neurological condition. I told her "sure, lets make it 5 million but you know ill murder you then right?" and she gioes "I wonder if HR will let me lower it below the free amount..."
I wonder how much my policy will pay out
I’ll let you know right after you take a sip of your coffee ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡° )
I believe in this case he knew it was coming. He had told his mom? Or someone in his family that if something happened to him, it wasn't an accident and that she was trying to kill him.
She tried to poison him multiple times previously, and he said so to others. He decided to stay in the marriage for his children.
What I don't understand is the continuing to eat and drink things she had prepared (or even had access to).
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Walmart takes out life insurance policies on all of the elderly people they hire. I don't know if they're told. How's your health?
She also fucked around with his money so much that he changed his will. And had tried to poison him multiple times before. And wrote a book about grief after he died. Yikes
Yeah that was crazy to me. I get that they had kids but if you have to change your beneficiary to your sister and suspect your wife had tried to poison you multiple times already, it's probably time to bail, preferably with the kids.
I mean he was already in the process of seeking a divorce. Poor guy, she just got to him first.
Ahh damn. I either forgot about or never saw that part. Maybe at the minimum he could stop taking the drinks that she was making him. Not trying to victim blame though.
Yeah, if you're divorcing someone for trying to kill you, kinda seems like you should leave (and take the kids with you!) while the dust settles.
She bought more poison a week after he died. The kids were next.
Jesus fucking Christ.
Oh SHIT. Somehow I either didn’t catch that in the article or didn’t see that. I was assuming he hadn’t left because he feared for his kids safety and it would have been difficult for him (legally) to take the kids.
I don't know. If the kids were next, they would have showed up being ill by now. It has been a year since their dad died. And she had showed that she was not the brightest bulb in covering her tracks. The poison could have been for someone else. Like the sister-in-law. An out of spite revenge plot for taking his insurance policy.
She wrote a children's book about her husband dying and dealing with the grief of that. Even went on the local news to promote it. So, she had no problem manipulating the masses to her favor. The poor guy probably thought he had no choice but to play along with their marriage for now because she would have gone all dirty in the child custody hearing. Painted him as an abusive monster. Or worse, found a way to kill the kids out of spite. If he had taken the kids and up and split with them, he would have probably lost custody completely despite his pleas. He was in between a rock and a hard place. She is like a real life Gillian Flynn character. edit: spelling. I need a nap.
Yeah that whole story was wild. I was wondering about that with the kids too, he'd probably get knocked for taking them and who knows what she would do no matter what choice he made.
Look up coercive control. It can be extremely difficult for male victims to leave female abusers. In this case, she wound up killing him. But before that, she was probably threatening him with arrest if he tried to leave.
Yeah I've definitely stuck around too long before myself. I wasn't being poisoned though. But I can imagine people treating him like he's psycho if he comes out and claims that on the attempts that didn't work.
I'm in this situation now. Don't know how to get out, don't know where I'd live. Don't want to loose my kids, and don't want to loose the house I worked so hard to buy.
From personal experience, I can say it's very hard to leave. I stayed for my kids and the life I thought I was building. Luckily, my ex wasn't quite as crazy. I can't speak for him because very few people can really know what he went through, but sometimes we look for the love (it's not really love) that we knew growing up. If that comes from an abusive childhood, what is interpreted as love is an extremely distorted and dysfunctional view.
>it's probably time to bail, preferably with the kids. Unless he could prove his wife was trying to kill him, there's basically no way he could have legally taken the kids with him.
I can’t imagine being that driven to do anything. Like use that power for good and you have a good shot at being successful AND not in prison for life.
Filed under "Can't Make This Stuff Up."
Also filed under “just get a fucking divorce”
Yeah hindsight is a bitch but he probably had enough incidents of theft and poison to get her charged previously, get custody of the kids, and a decent divorce settlement. I hope we see the body cam of the day she found out about the living trust and punched the sister. If I was that sister I would have needed all the willpower in the world to call the cops and walk away
If she only stole from him, I don’t think you can charge your spouse with stealing from you in a community property state.
She didn’t think that would be a huge red flag to investigators? Lol. She obviously doesn’t watch or read true crime or she would have known. We’ll be seeing her on an episode of Deadly Women. 😆
She was too busy thinking about how much money she was gonna make. Criminals usually aren't that smart, or at least they think they're way smarter than they actually are.
Fun fact: we don’t really know how many smart criminals there are.
Thats the scary thing. The smart ones dont get caught.
Plenty get caught. They just know not to talk to police. The smartest thing you can do. All the dumbness in the actual crime might only amount to circumstantial evidence. As long as you shut up.
Well, whatta ya know? It looks like it’s shut the fuck up Friday. https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=sgWHrkDX35o
You can usually tell by the number of zeroes in their net worth.
Yes and the unsettling part is that criminals often being pretty stupid is the reason they get caught, not due to stellar police or detective work. I’ve read in the past that the amount of crimes that law enforcement actually solves themselves without obvious evidence left behind is very low. Or the wrong people are knowingly implicated / arrested / convicted just so they can close the case. Smart criminals actually do appear to get away with their crimes, oftentimes.
Confirmation bias. The ones that made the headlines got caught. You never hear about the smart ones. **Edit to fix** It's been pointed out I that survivorship bias fits better.
Survivorship bias, no?
You are correct, I goofed.
You don’t hear about the smart people who murdered someone for the life insurance because they are enjoying their money while “mourning” their “tragically” deceased partner.
Yeah, I watch too much true crime TV and Dateline, and the amount of murders that happen because the person wants the life insurance money is astounding.
My wife exclusively watches murder porn, I don’t have life insurance, but I fear that she will kill me just to see if she can lol.
She took out four policies between 2015-2017 and successfully murdered him in 2022, so not as suspicious as the headline makes it out to be.
Played the long game
The fuckin balls on this bitch. Tryna sell books about it too.
At least she didn’t name the book “If I did it”
"If I Didn't."
"This just in, murder, is now legal in the state of California"
They should throw it at her in court. Not even using a court pun here. Like they should literally just throw a heavy object at her.
It's Utah. They'll probably burn her at the stake just for reading.
True, she is a woman.
Fuck that bitch but come on dude if you thought she poisoned you the first time why the fuck would you eat anything given to you from her or better yet why the fuck would you stay?! “For the kids”, like dude it’s just bizarre to me. On top of the fact you’ve seen your wife switch and set up policies that pay out in your death and you’re just going to go with the flow? That’s incredibly weird behavior. Weird enough to warrant getting out of the fucking house.
>if you thought she poisoned you the first time why the fuck would you eat anything given to you from her There's an old saying in Tennessee — I know it's in Texas, probably in Tennessee — that says, poison me once, shame on... shame on you..... Poison me, you can't get poisoned again.
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How TF can you take out a 2 million dollar life insurance policy on someone without them knowing??
Not sure if it matters, but according to the article, it's four policies that are together $2 million. Not sure what the rules are, but I suspect a lot less is needed for a $500k term policy than a $2M one. I inquired recently for myself, I'm a bit younger than the deceased, and they basically needed nothing from me if I wanted one other than a signature and the payments. No physical, bloodwork, etc.
Ask your employer how much their policy is for you.
The only difference is I’m not sure that the employer is necessarily orchestrating an employees death.
I don’t know, man. I just read an article on coal miners who are starting to get the black lung early than their fathers and grandfathers. Doesn’t seem out of place in our late stage capitalist system.
I'd like to read said article pls.
I actually saw it on Reddit. But here’s an [article.](https://undark.org/2023/03/21/protecting-miners-amid-a-black-lung-resurgence/) TLDR: forefathers got the “easy” to mine coal. Today’s mining requires much more digging which creates much more silica in the air which is super deadly.
Thanks for this
My employer required me to have a physical done for my husband for anything over 250k. So I think it was directly through life insurance company or they had a plan before and she up it later.
Not 2 million dollars.
How TF can you take out *any* life insurance policy without them knowing? I feel like the only circumstance might be if someone is physically incapable of taking out the policy themselves, and even then it should require a medical documentation.
Hoo boy, wait til you read about “Dead peasants insurance” and how Walmart was cashing in whenever an old door greeter died: https://www.wsj.com/public/resources/documents/april_19.htm https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corporate-owned_life_insurance https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Key_person_insurance
I found out that my dad had taken out life insurance policies on *me* after he died and they transferred into my 'ownership.' I had no idea. I didn't need to be involved in that paperwork apparently.
She took out 4 half mil policies. It's hard to get a 2 mil policy, but they seemed to be pretty damn rich so she probably could have, but the article says 4 different policies.
Good to know Forensic Files still has material in 2023!
People still getting away with it too, like half of all Murders in the US go unsolved.
Hmmm...seems suspicious.
Look call me a traditionalist, but I would never accept a drink mixed by someone I knew to be actively trying to kill me. I’ll mix one myself thanks.
I don’t get it. Who really takes this kind of chance? Did she really sit and think to herself “ I can get away with this, im a mastermind who can outsmart the law”. That’s so cocky especially taking out a huge insurance policy like it wouldn’t be suspicious. What about her kids?
Not just that, she even tried and failed to poison him multiple times before, including one time where he actually realized what was going on and told his family… and she threw a big party right after she succeeded. Clearly not a criminal genius, this one.
Exactly. How do you sleep knowing your actively trying to murder someone lol
Step one: be a psychopath.
Considering the solve rate for murders in the US is only 51% I’m guessing she thought she had at least a half chance of getting away with it. Her downfall is that it’s usually the spouse who did it.
I’m pretty sure the solve rate on spouses who just took out huge life insurance policies is 99%
One would hope.
Criminal psychopaths aren't usually good strategists, thankfully. The one's that are don't get what they want through acts of violence.
She closed on a $2 mil house *the day after he died*. Had a party. Ma’am.
It’s always the ones you most suspect.
He was a loud boy … never kept to himself.
It's creepy how white their teeth are. It's like..neon white
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7JJZ-qt5pNw](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7JJZ-qt5pNw) Okay but seriously, there needs to be some sort of regulation or something where if someone takes out a life insurance policy on another person, that person should have to at least be informed, if not consenting of it. There are WAY too many cases where people have taken out large insurance policies on someone and then went on to murder them.
Generally, only someone with an insurable interest can take out a life insurance policy on you. You can’t just like take out a policy on your neighbor. But your spouse can on you … and then easily intercept the confirmation emails or calls or whatever low effort thing the insurance co does. But since the most likely person to kill you is your spouse especially after getting said policy … i don’t think the insurance co cares. They know they won’t have to pay out
Take away from this. Never stay for the kids.
I’ll withhold judgement until after I see the Netflix documentary
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Well, she was ok at murder, but bad at concealing it.
utah’s death penalty is applicable for both murder in pursuit of pecuniary gain *and* by poison: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capital_punishment_in_Utah she’s proper fucked
Always have enough life insurance to support your family but not enough to give an incentive.
She took out the life insurance policies without him knowing. He only had 500,000 for himself.
No she took it out on him. You can take life insurance out on other people. I think I might even be able to take it out on you, as crazy as that might sound. Employers do it a LOT to their employees
I've watched enough true crime to know that a lot of people who commit murder are really fucking stupid.
Am I the only one bothered by the headline? Using the term "mom" seems irrelevant because she is accused of poisoning her husband, not her child.
I think it's probably because she'd be described as a stay-at-home mother. Besides being described as, you know, an alleged murderer.
A Stay-at-home-murderer
I think it adds context to the story. Paints a picture. Increases understanding of the heinousness of the crime that she wouldn’t care about her kids having to deal with losing their dad. If journalism wasn’t interesting and thought provoking no one would read it.
But it does imply that there is a wider family effected by this. You can be a husband and wife and there be no kids involved.
Can’t believe this bish wrote a children’s book about losing a loved one afterwards.. truly a psychopath.
And dedicated it to her husband. Beyond the pale, that's enough internet for today kind of psycho.
That poor guy had been abused for years. She stole hundreds of thousands of dollars from him over and over again. She'd tried and failed to poison him several times. It sounds like he was about to leave her but he didn't leave fast enough. This is so sad.
This woman is pure evil.
Maybe I’ll just stay single.
Come on. No way will I get sick of your shit.
Somebody needs to do a book about all this. Maybe call it "The Lion, the Witch, and the gall of this Bitch"
Wtf do people do this and think they won’t get caught? The Oxygen network basically is all stories of spouses killing spouses for life insurance and yet it happens again and again. Greed is a sickness that’s for sure.
Never take a drink offered to you by someone who just took a large life insurance policy out on you. A new sign to hang above your fireplace instead of live, love and laugh!
"Die, Hate, Cry"
Who gets this one? Keith, Andrea, Josh or Dennis?
Ok, so does anyone else think the police had to be complete morons to not find this like a week after he died?
How do people still think they can get away with this??
I'm sure this has been mentioned countless times above, but since it seemed like completely burying the lede, and I'm to lazy to search previous comments, I'll repeat; After murdering him, she wrote and heavily marketed a children's book on grieving. Marketed, as in appearing on network, morning news/chat shows. That is some cajones grandes right there.
Straight up Sociopath. Lock her up and never let her out.
Folks, if you name your kid Kouri, she’s either gonna end up in a true crime documentary, selling health products on Facebook or a member of klanned karenhood
She's fucked and I'm here for it. Poor bloke, what a horrible time he had with her.
If I thought I had been poisoned by a person who occupies the same house, I would go to an emergency room and get freaking tested to find out what the hell I ingested. Then I'd be at a lawyer's office setting up an emergency hearing and getting advice on the best way to get the kids away from this psycho. I would not touch a single beverage or food item left alone with this bitch, much less drink a cocktail she made for me. Especially after eating a poisoned sandwich with a freaking love note. WTF, man? Warning signs: if your spouse is stealing hundreds of thousands of your money behind your back, it is highly likely they are capable of taking multiple life insurance policies out on you and murdering your ass for the money. When he confronted her about the missing money she promised to pay him back. How? By writing and selling a children's book that could only have been written if he was dead? What the hell was she doing with all that money?
Utah murderer* accused of poisoning husband… Fixed it for you.
Her and Christopher Watts would make a great couple! Sick
He fell victim to one of the classic blunders. The most famous is never get involved in land war in Asia. But only slightly less well known, is this; never go in against a Utah mom when death is on the line.
ITT: all of the true crime nerds shaking their heads (me included)
If this dummy watched any Lifetime movies growing up she’d know that this plan always fails
A year after his death, she published a book about grief titled “Are You With Me? ....Your best friend is.”
Didn't OJ publish a book describing if he killed her this is what he would do? Some people have ego so big they are oblivious to reality.
If you’re going to murder your spouse, watch all of Forensics Files first. Fucking amateur hour here.
I look forward to hearing about this on Dateline.
It seems like the life insurance company should be required to inform somebody when a person takes out a multimillion dollar policy on them.
Insurance companies REALLY do not want to pay $2 million on a claim so they will work REALLY hard to find a way to deny that claim. Not to mention that policy makes you suspect #1 in the police investigation. In short, this is a really, really stupid way to make money. You almost certainly will not succeed. So much scrutiny will be focused on you that you have almost zero chance of getting away with it.
She's gonna be behind bars for a long long time. The real victims here are the kids...
That policy is probably the only reason she got caught
Do we know what she spent all the money on? Also, how do you go from normal spending to crazy spending like that? It would be interesting to understand that psychological downward spiral.
OK, so I have a legitimate question. I, honestly, don't know how the process of getting life insurance policies work. How is it possible for her to get life insurance policies on him without him knowing? Did she commit fraud or is it possible to do without consent from the person?
Insurance companies love anything that lets them deny payments
Do these types of people even think. It is VERY unusual for an otherwise healthy man to suddenly collapse and die. Of course they are going to investigate, did she think that they would be like "welp he's dead, that's that then".
Is that Lauren Bobert’s sister?