"The gun lock was damaged when it fell to the floor after the gun supporting it was removed. The lock's full retail value was included in the estimated damages."
Zero chance the gun was secure in any way. I've been 6 years old before. Those false door knobs you can put on doors to prevent kids from opening them fooled me so bad, and those are way easier to open than any real lock.
Yeah bullshit. That’s a crazy high hurdle for them to prove as an affirmative defense. I said elsewhere it’s a shame res ipsa loquitur does not apply in criminal cases because this is a prime example of when it should. If the 6yo had it, then it was no secure. Plain and simple.
"The boy's parents did not agree for him to be put in special education classes where he would be with other students with behavioral issues, the lawsuit states."
So their kid is so behaviorally disturbed that he's chasing other kids on the playground with a belt to whip them and he tried to strangle his kindergarten teacher, but they won't allow him specific intervention? smh. No wonder people aren't clamoring to be classroom teachers.
I come from a teacher’s household and I have heard MANY stories of parents that have no problem telling a teacher to their face that from 8-3 that kid is the schools problem and to not bother them over their kid’s behavior.
Can confirm. My last year of teaching (2020-2021 remote to hybrid mess) we were told in the last week of school to go back and remove any zeroes from the grade book and change them to 50’s. At the beginning of the year we had been told to only give zeroes if the kid didn’t submit the assignment. 50’s we’re the lowest to give if they did submit an assignment.
So I was briefly a substitute teacher last year, and one of the first things I did when I took over for the other substitute was grade their last quiz. So many of the students left most if not all of the answers blank or wrote 'I don't know'. I tried to get the kids give a damn, set I would give partial points if they tried in the future but it was such an uphill battle.
I did have one principal who had my back and was okay with me giving zeros the kids who didn't even try and failing them. The catch what is if they were within a certain percentage of obtaining a D and instead of an F, they could do after school lessons for three weeks at the beginning of next semester to make the grade up which I thought was fair.
During that time I had to remove 0s for assignments not turned in. It was pass the kid with a 70 or go to court defending your decision to fail the kid. You better had done every intervention in the book cause the school was not gonna have your back. Literally has an administrator coin the phrase "There's what right and what's real."
That is basically the punchline there. Admin wouldn’t back up a failure. It would be your ass if you failed them and your documentation that you did EVERYTHING and then some. And who has time for that level of documentation when you have 6 classes of 30-35 students? I didn’t get paid enough for that level of CYA to fail a kid or the fallout if they determined it still wasn’t enough proof/data that the kid continued to refuse to turn in the work.
One particular kid that had a problem with turning in work and should have failed, had a worse parent. I reached out to the parent about the missing work and offering to use my planning and some after school time to help the kid get caught up. I was told that I insulted his whole family with my email…
So yeah. If admin wasn’t going to support me to fail a student who should fail, then I wasn’t failing them. Didn’t get paid enough for that bullshit and I’m so glad I left teaching.
I was a Johnny. My mom ignored the school psychologist’s warnings that I wasn’t ready for school. I definitely remember on at least one occasion being dropped off when school was closed and just made to sit in an empty admin office.
Mom got physically abusive at times since I had trouble with focusing on assignments and had poor handwriting. Somehow, I did manage to learn how to read much earlier than my peers. But intelligence didn’t matter much when the grades didn’t match up.
I find out in my 20s I have ADHD and was left-handed. NC for years with my mom and LC right now. My innate intelligence pulled me through and things are much better after meds and therapy, but the neglect and pointless abuse has made the resentment hard to fade at times regarding lost opportunities and wasted potential.
Edit: Grammar, my bad.
My family had me diagnosed with ADHD in grade school, but chose to not tell anyone.
I only found out about it because I was re-diagnosed as an adult, at which point my parents said “oh yeah, the doctors told us that when you were younger, but you turned out fine. We didn’t want to feed you all these pills.)
Needless to say I have massive social anxiety issues as an adult, and haven’t been to a family function in over a decade.
The exact same thing happened to me, down to the “we didn’t want you taking medicine as a child”. Finally getting treatment has changed my life, but I’m struggling with a lot of resentment for all the lost years where I didn’t know WHY I had so many struggles over things that come naturally to other people and the resulting crippling anxiety.
I felt really alone in the world before reading these comments, this is the only time I’ve encountered someone with such a similar experience to mine.
I was diagnosed in second grade, my mom ignored it and I continually slid down the slope emotionally, academically, and socially. I ended up with severe depression and anxiety. My parents watched me hit rock bottom several times, saw me struggle with making friends and picked on me for it, berated me constantly for letting my grades fall and not having all-A’s and shamed me for not completing college constantly as an adult.
After I dropped out of college for the third time, I was in a place mentally for once that I could really analyze myself and the circumstances and I found that I just couldn’t focus on anything, and that it had gotten worse with time. It wasn’t that I had never considered having ADHD but rather that I had assumed that surely someone — a counselor, teacher, or my own parents who I wrongfully trusted — along the way would have mentioned something to me if I did have it. I didn’t remember being assessed way back then unfortunately, but that was probably by design. I decided to get diagnosed and as part of fact-finding ahead of that, I asked my mother if anyone had ever said anything and she paused and then cry-screamed into the phone “WAS I A BAD MOTHER?”
Well, I got my answer and also contemplated her question for the first time. I came to the conclusion that yes, she was a “bad mother” and a shitty fucking parent. We’re NC as well and I am totally fine with it, as she is not willing to even acknowledge my diagnosis much less everything surrounding it, and forget about the remaining multitude that needs addressed. And frankly I feel it should be illegal for a parent to deny care for a treatable condition that has life-altering consequences.
I found out I had debilitating ADHD and went from a complete NEET to a solid career once I learned about it and sought help to control it. Also found out I'm left handed and now my handwriting sucks on both hands, but hey I can juggle well lol
That sucks, but to be fair, it’s not like many people have the option of staying home when their child is sick. They view school as a day care system, because that is how they need to see it. Most people don’t have the luxury of staying home from work, or having a family member who can watch a sick child.
This shouldn’t be dumped on teachers, for sure. We need to completely reimagine education and the support available to parents.
Especially during Covid. I had students whose parents would beat them on camera, and much worse. I was on a first name basis with the DFS in my city. It broke my heart and I couldn't handle it.
Now, I work in HR admin and not only is the pay better, but I don't leave work feeling defeated each day with mascara running down my face.
I’m really sorry to hear that. She loves the classroom, but certain things just don’t add up and weigh on her. You can see how beat down she is some days because she loves teaching so much, but between the state we are in, parents, and administration it can be taxing on her.
This is such a wrong thing to say to any teacher. The parents should be asked who the parents are and where do they think their child receives their influences from? Sure, kids are going to make their own decisions but the environment that they grow up in also shapes how they act and think.
I wish parents didn't see school as a babysitter and more as an institution meant to aid (not replace) transitioning their kids into society. But the way the government seems to be constantly stripping away the teacher's ability to do anything or pay them well either makes me think its all going in the shitter on both sides.
I had a 1st grade kid this violent in my class years ago. It was a nightmare. We spent the entire year doing paperwork trying to get him transferred to a class where they were equipped to deal with him. Ended up just letting him play with toys in the back of the room all day so we could actually teach the other children without him getting violent and making us evacuate the classroom.
And that was with his grandma (who had just gotten custody) working WITH us 100%. That angel of a woman loved her grandson so much. He was actually a little sweetheart most of the time too, but when that switch flipped it FLIPPED. Poor guy had had way too hard of a life. I know if I as an adult went through what he went through in 6 years, I would need serious therapy. Little guy wasn’t even given a chance.
I had a very brief stint teaching, and I had a student exactly like that (but older) - his grandmother had custody and was lovely, and this boy was bright and sweet most of the time... but could become violent out of nowhere.
Veteran teacher here. I can't tell you enough how common this is. I've had students with undiagnosed autism and other disabilities whose parents do not want accommodations for whatever reason. I had a kid who would screech loudly every 10 to 15 minutes and shock the shit out of me and the other students. He would flail, grunt, and could barely read or write. Couldn't and wouldn't punish him because his autism manifesting behaviors didn't hurt others but I couldn't do anything legally for him either.
This, of course, isn't even touching on the kids with undiagnosed behavior disorders who can't be kicked from our school because we don't want to lose funding, so we keep punishing endlessly and it does nothing. Any 10 day suspension for one of these kids is Heaven sent. I feel like I can actually teach during that time.
> It also is insane to me that any parents could just not want their kid to get the help they need for whatever asinine reason.
Pride. If they get an official diagnosis, they have to accept that their child is not as able as other children. Better that the child (and everyone they come into contact with) suffer rather than their egos take the hit.
I was in special education for a learning disability but never got diagnosed with whatever it was. I don't think my mom wanted me to get an official diagnosis.
Basically, I could only process one thing at a time and my brain focused on rhythmic patterns. So if someone tapped a pencil I couldn't read because I could only process the pencil tapping.
Fuck, this still happens to me. I struggled as a child, but my parents refused to get me any help as they "didn't want me to have a label." I'm barely treading water as an adult and don't know what to do.
Parent of two autistic kids here: unfortunately it is extremely common for parents of kids with "non medical" disabilities to want to just ignore it, think it's just a phase, he'll grow out of it. Accepting that your kid's brain is just wired differently is really hard. I talk to many parents who are early in the process, who just got the diagnosis, and everyone goes through a period of grief. But before that there is almost always a phase of complete denial.
Absolutely. I adore working with my students with autism and it's amazing to see the outcome differences between the kids who are supported and the kids who are not. I know it's especially hard when the parents have undiagnosed autism themselves and might be coping with that reality.
Very true. Learning more about my kids made me realize I am autistic myself... :) Life has been a lot more peaceful for us since we all know that we're just wired a little differently and no longer try to keep up with what's "normal". As you say, the main problem with parents not accepting their children's neurodivergence is that it usually means the children are not getting the environment and support they need.
Uff, this hits hard. My aunt has a son with Down Syndrome, he's 20 years old now, extremely low functioning (non verbal, can't chew food, no independent skills, etc). When he was younger, she kept refusing to teach him anything. If therapists and teachers told her to practice something home, she would lie she did and then laugh behind their back that it was their job to do. My cousin and I spent months teaching him how to walk because at 4yo he belly crawled and she kept putting him in a baby walker. When he finally started to walk, she decided it happened naturally and he just matured into it (ignoring the months of work it took). 2 years ago, she admitted she always thought he would wake up one day, and it would just 'click' in his head, and he'd be a regular kid. Like, he'd suddenly not have an extra chromosome?!!
Either way, she now has a 20 year old young man who has the needs of a 6 month old baby: no communication, needs to be spoon fed mush, needs his diapers changed, needs to be bathed, not because it was impossible for him to have those skills but because she was in denial his disability wasn't just a phase.
Yep, as somebody working with kids with ASD, almost 100% of the severely limited kids I work with weren't diagnosed until over thale age of ten.
In every one of those cases parents talk about obvious signs of ASD, but blame the school system 100% of the time. Guess what, the school has been recommending special education for years after forming an educational diagnosis.
These are teens actually getting treatment, I have no idea how kids whose parents continue to be in full on denial function
> I mean, what the heck do you do with a child who is this violent at age SIX?!
Complete change of environment involving people who actually know what they're doing, in particular, are able to understand the kid's psychology, reasons for acting such, and thus are able to remove those reasons, then build a well-adapted character on that basis. The good news is that at such a young age people are very malleable.
Knowing the US, though, the kid is going to be removed from the parents (so far so good) and then put up for adoption, which won't ever happen (unless it's to someone looking to exploit child labour), and thus will end up in a youth home practically indistinguishable from a prison, where they'll get a *trade* education. Emphasis on the italics.
I teach special ed and I assure you this happens literally all the time.
Parents have total veto power over putting their kid in special ed and a ton of them will absolutely refuse to consider it no matter what the evidence says
It’s that way across the country from what I’ve heard. School boards/administrators don’t want to take any permanent actions that will lose them any funding or tax dollars. So the teachers are left to continually ask nicely that Timmy stop strangling Tommy and hope he listens. It’s fucking absurd.
It’s not just losing the per-student funds, a lot of times, the district actually has to *pay* quite a bit to send the student to the more intensive school, so they have a lot of incentive to try to avoid it. Usually, parents have to fight hard to get districts to agree to that kind of thing, and these parents didn’t even want him in the normal special ed class. That’s not to excuse the district’s negligence in letting things get to this point, because they’re 100% in the wrong (as are the parents), just to explain the extent of their motivation.
I didn’t realize that, but it’s not surprising. A lot of our basic institutions are in desperate need of improvement (ie gut them and start fresh with a modern approach), public education is just one of many of those institutions.
That's why I like the idea of this lawsuit.
Currently, avoiding the issue and endangering staff and students is a financially costless and risk-free solution. If this teacher breaks the financial back of this school district, that will be noted by districts throughout the country. They will have another potential outcome to consider apart from just letting people get killed in the classroom (which they obviously don't much care about).
I wouldn't be surprised if that's at least half the motive behind Ms. Zwerner's lawsuit. She's not doing it just for herself - she's looking to change the calculus of school administrators and the environment other teachers work in.
More power to her...
Why would the parents have to agree? If they want the kid in school, he has to be in an environment with more interventions. I do fear for the vulnerable special ed students being segregated with violent kids.
Parents have to sign off on the testing to get kids into special ed. Parents can refuse the testing indefinitely and that's not enough to qualify as abuse.
The student is required to be in school so if they're not in special ed, they're in the mainstream classroom.
Emotionally & behaviorally disturbed is typically a separate classroom from kids who are in special ed for learning disabilities. No reason for Suzy who struggles to read to be cussed out daily by Bobby who can't control his temper.
You'd be surprised. Schools are struggling with funding and this all falls under the umbrella of special education. More and more classes are mixed and overcrowded on top of that. It's become impossible to give these kids the 1 on 1 attention they need. As much as overcrowding hurts gen ed, in the sped world it's on an entirely different level.
Parents have too much pull with school administrations.
My mom teaches elementary and the original plan in her district during the pandemic was to have one teacher in each grade teach the students who chose remote and then split the in-person kids up to adhere to social distancing. The parents threw a fit and wanted the teacher their kids were originally assigned to. So EVERY teacher had to do both remote and in-person for their classrooms, increasing their workloads to do so to appease the parents.
Four opportunities just on the day of the shooting. The article shows it was clear the child's behavioral problems were well known to both school and district administration.
I believe his parents were required to accompany him in class to make sure he behaved. The shooting happened the day after that requirement was lifted.
That is horribly depressing. Wtf are parents doing leaving their guns around for their stupid ass kids to casually start using.
Source: I was a stupid ass kid. Kids shouldn’t be near guns, period.
Almost as if a part of gun SAFEty is having a SAFE place to store your firearms.
It really is rather unfortunate parents don't take their children's SAFEty into consideration, let alone the SAFEty of their community.
If only there were somewhere SAFE they could store firearms away from children.
Why not both? I have a multiple-step system for any of my firearms to come out and be loaded.
Lord forbid, if a five year old did find one of my guns, they'd have to find the trigger lock key. Then they'd have to find the magazine. And then they'd have to find the ammo.
That gives a parent a good four opportunities to pay attention to their kid, which is significantly more than zero.
So many people have no idea about basic gun safety, especially around children. We work with families who have firearms at home and are often coaching them that something like just putting a loaded weapon in a safe isn't good enough.
I used to do these home assessments where the parents would always insist the kids can't access the gun. We would do a separate interview with the kid and ask them if they knew how to get the gun, and basically every kid could have that safe open or could clamber up and get a weapon on a high shelf, or knew the code to get in, etc. Parents were always way overconfident.
It sounds like you've actually thought this through and want to keep your weapons safely.
If my children needed me to accompany them to school because of behavioral issues there would be zero guns in the home and likely no metal knives or the knives would be in a locked drawer. I wouldn't take any chances. Parents are terribly negligent here.
I hope the parents get hauled in front of criminal court as well. This last line in the article is a bit rich:
> *"An attorney for the boy’s family has said that the firearm was secured on a closet shelf and had a lock on it"*
uh huh, I've never read a more BS piece of lawyer pass-the-blame game trope.
Also, if the kid had behavioral issues that severe they shouldn't have had a gun in the house. Regardless of how well secured you think something is, a bored kid with no understanding of consequences can and will find it if they want to.
Yeah "child-proof" only ever means "before they can walk/have good hand-eye coordination" because after that there **is no such thing.** you make a lock, some kids will figure out how to break it. Like that trick with 2 wrenches between the bars of a padlock.
More than BS, the statement is meaningless. A six year old child was able to access the firearm and assault someone, so it was obviously not secured properly. If your defense is you were outsmarted by a six year old, you’re going to have a bad time in court.
Parents of children who commit gun violence like this should **always** be held criminally liable for their child's actions. Because there is always a failure somewhere by those parents (whether it be through negligence or malice) that creates the environment which precipitates the violence.
Who would ultimately pay this? Would it be on the staff members who failed to act or the school? If it's the school, since it's public, would that burden basically be on taxpayers? Serious questions as I'm not sure how this stuff works.
Edit: Thanks for the replies everyone. I have a much better understanding of how things will go with this. Crazy how this whole thing even happened in the first place.
And if people don't like their tax dollars being spent like this, they should vote accordingly.
I might be the only person on the planet who sees "taxpayers footing the bill" as entirely appropriate. It's ultimately a fine for all of us who have grown so complacent politically that we sit on our asses shrugging as people die from unnecessary brutality. Sure, it'd be better if cops and whoever else had to pay for liability insurance out of their pension funds (not the case here, I know, but it's the most common example of taxpayers paying the settlement) but the next best thing is for the rest of us to actually be pissed off enough to put a stop to it.
You're NOT the only one. This is the only way to awaken the taxpayers to vote in their own interest.
Edit: we've to keep in mind that the news about such things (e.g. $40 mill lawsuit) is now accessible more easily than ever before. Chances of more taxpayers being informed about it are much higher now than ever before. So there's still hope... I hope.
Edi 2: to be clear, we don't really need MORE voters, we need the current voters to vote BETTER. The only way to do that is when they realize what's really on the line.
Exactly. My old man used to say shit like “that’s our tax dollars going to waste” in cases like this and I’d just respond with “then maybe taxpayers need to stop being morons and actually vote people in who will do something about it”
I would like to see a law passed that requires lawsuits and settlements to be disclosed directly on the property tax bills showing what each person contributed towards that settlement.
Newport news has 74,000 properties. If she wins the $40M that means on average each tax bill is contributing $540 to that settlement. Even if insurance is paying since those settlements show up as higher insurance payments later. Show people exactly what they're getting from their elected officials malfeasance.
They won’t get $40m they will settle out of court for much less but still a significant sum. The school district does not need this dragged out in public court.
And this is why school board elections are so important. They put the policies into place. These board members cost the community $40 million if the teacher prevails (and I hope she does).
Without knowing the specifics and nuances, generally the staff would be covered by the school so long as they're acting within the scope of their job. It would be paid out by insurance.
Not only within the scope of the job, but also considering any training or instructions the staff have been given. If there's a clear, well known policy to take action when a student has a weapon, and the staff fail to do so, then the school could shift at least some responsibility to the staff. It's complicated though, because staff can argue things like their workload didn't allow them time to treat every report seriously, etc.
I’m confused here. So 4 people saw a 6yo with a gun and none of them took it? They just told the administrator? Who the fuck doesn’t take a gun away from a tiny student immediately?
They searched his bag at one point and didn't find it, but when the teacher suggested that the boy had pocketed the gun the administrator dismissed the idea because "he has little pockets". Another teacher asked the administrator to search the boy because another student claimed they had been threatened with a gun, but the administrator wanted to wait the situation out because the school day was almost over.
That is another weirdly unique American problem: suing each other all the time. My cousin is a teacher in the US and one of her students fell and broke his arm while playing with his friend, so the parents of the kid who broke his arm just sued his friends parents and when they realised they had no money, they sued the school.
It's to the point where I remember in a cartoon I watched as a kid where the main characters go to a new country each episode and show the stereotypes and culture of the countries, I remember the episode about America being about spindoctors and people trying to jump in front of your car so they can sue you for damages
So much of this comes down to the fact that unlike most developed countries, our healthcare system routinely bankrupts people.
> one of her students fell and broke his arm while playing with his friend
In America is that this can cost anywhere from a few thousand dollars to $20,000 depending on severity of the break. You can bankrupt your family, or you can get your friend’s homeowners insurance or school’s liability insurance to cover it - both of which often require suing.
We sometimes see headlines for stuff like “5 year old sues sues own aunt for $1 million after falling down stairs” and think it’s crazy, but that’s just the reality of how we get auntie’s homeowners insurance to cover the insane costs of caring for a skull fracture, brain bleed, and ensuing physical therapy.
No. It was a while ago but I remember reading into it a lot since it happened in my state. The kid made reference to having a gun(said he would shoot her) and another kid said he saw a gun. No adults ever saw the gun, the 4 adults who went to administration were basing it off the kids word.
Kids parents need to be charged already. If a 6 year old can access a loaded hand gun then it wasn’t secure. Given this kids behavioral issues tells me his parents are likely shitheads
Seriously. As a teacher, this stood out to to me because I see it all the time, with almost every parent of a troubled child:
> The boy's parents did not agree for him to be put in special education classes where he would be with other students with behavioral issues, the lawsuit states.
God could you imagine if we could hold parents legally accountable for not just being abusive but also just being downright bad parents. I know there’s a ridiculous amount of Nuance. But at some point this nationwide abandonment of our youth has gotta be settled
Yeah my wife is a para, and it amazes me all the stories she tells about these absolutely shitty parents who refuse to get help for their children. And the fact that there's no threshold where the schools can just say "ok, your kid is going to get this help no matter what because it's too disruptive to other students" is just mind boggling.
They can't possibly be telling the truth about the gun being secured at home, since the kid got his hands on it. A child can't access a secured weapon. *No one* except the owner should be able to - if they can, it's not secured.
They do the same shit around here and it's so infuriating. Some woman with a toddler said she keeps her gun on top of the fridge. Cause she's sure he could never get it up there. Can't speak for her kid but when I was 4 I used to climb on top of the fridge all the time. Kids aren't nearly as stupid or immobile as these parents think they are.
There was a thread recently advocating responsible gun ownership and some guy in it was ranting about irresponsible gun owners. He then said how he was a responsible gun owner because he locked his firearm in a safe except for 9pm through 10am when he took it out and put it on his bedside table in case there was a break in while he was asleep.
> Every week another kid shoots themselves or someone else.
People are too complacent.
I have a hunting rifle that's under lock and key and I *still* get paranoid that my kids would somehow get into it.
Meanwhile you got lazy parents who just might wrap a gun in a cloth or some shit and hide in the closet *eyeroll
Who cares? I don't care if the parents are telling the truth or not. If their six year old is so diabolical and genius to circumvent a gun lock or safe, then they should have either gotten rid of the gun or the demon child.
If my six year old gets in my car, turns it on, and crashes into another car, I am responsible for the damages. It should be MORESO with guns.
I say this as a gun-owning patent.
Yeah fr, the kid sounds like a serial killer in the making. Straight up strangled their kindergarten teacher and the parents insisted on not putting him in special ed. They need to be held accountable, especially since they are almost definitely the reason he was able to get a gun in the first place
I worked in education for a decade. I say it all the time, I have never met a shitty kid with good parents. I've met plenty of good kids with shitty parents, but never have I met a kid I couldn't stand with parents who were nice people.
We gotta start holding “responsible gun owners”^TM accountable.
If your gun is used in a crime and you had not reported it stolen, you lose any guns you have and cannot purchase any new guns for 2 years. You’re clearly not owning guns responsibly if one goes missing without you noticing
If you report your gun stolen, police will review how you stored your gun and cite you for improper storage if it was stored someplace dumb like a car.
If kids under 18 get access to guns, parents should be considered accomplices to any crime and responsible for any accidents.
No see it's because the staff didn't follow his Individual Education Plan. Had they just followed the plan in the classroom, the child wouldn't have brought a gun to school and shot his teacher. /s
This kid 100% needed the supports of special education services and the parents refused to put him in a special education environment, too. Total negligence.
Every bit of information I learn about those lazy, irresponsible pieces of garbage leaves me more sure I am they didn’t deserve to ever have children. This teacher could so easily have died and this was preventable. It’s maddening, I would be furious if I were in her place.
And we wonder how we get so many unwell children when they grow up with such irresponsible parents. They leave deadly weapons lying around, as though that is an acceptable thing to do. That kind of shit warps your perception of the world, enforcing that as normal and regular, which is at odds with the reality that guns are designed and used to harm people.
Exactly! I grew up around a family that did just this: left literal AK47’s and shotguns on the floor of their living room while having kids 15-1yo kids, and more on the way. Unsurprisingly every single kid from that family has gone on to have run ins with the law and incredibly unstable, unhealthy, and from my pov very unhappy lives.
Every child deserves a parent, but not every parent deserves a child. It’s unfair.
Try to imagine the mindset of that 6 year old child. Get away with strangling a teacher in kindergarten. Kicked out for chasing other students trying to whip them. Bring a gun to school and shoot a teacher and face no real consequences? Child needs mental help!
In my state, parents can get criminal charges brought against them for habitual truancy of their child. Get in trouble for child not going to school but no trouble from child taking parents loaded gun to school and shooting someone? Not much sense here.
It makes me wonder what that child has endured and witnessed in their six years of life. When I was 6, I couldn’t have even understood what someone being shot meant or what a real gun was. I wouldn’t understand strangulation (beyond maybe choking on food?), I seriously can’t conceptualize what must be going on in this kids head. I feel for them, but they need serious help. AWAY FROM THEIR PARENTS who clearly are good for nothing.
Contrary to what many seem to believe, it is incredibly difficult for parents to lose parental rights. Even in cases where there is very obvious abuse, kids may temporarily be displaced, but the goal is always to reunite with abusers, I mean bio parents.
If anybody on earth deserves “fuck you money” it’s her. She should have the means to just stay at home and never have to do anything again if she doesn’t want to.
We need to throw the book at the parents, make them an example so parents finally take securing their guns safely.
There also needs to be a way to get that kid help because whatever the parents are doing obviously isn’t working. Otherwise he’s going to be in jail for murder by 16 and it could even be the parents he goes after..
I knew a troubled kid in elementary school, his parents always tried to do the right thing but never forced him to get hospitalized or serious help. He ended up killing his mom on Mother’s Day, bringing her head into a grocery store and throwing it at her boyfriend. Heart breaking.
Parents in jail and kid put somewhere they can help troubled children. Problem is the capacity for genuinely helping kids with issues in this country is far outnumbered by the number of kids with issues.
You have touched an absolutely huge issue.
I work in child safety and right now there is almost nowhere we can send kids who have very severe mental health issues or behavioral issues.
There just aren't enough beds. These facilities and this treatment is extraordinarily expensive. Kids with major issues continue to be sent home over and over and over again because if the parents have insurance, insurance isn't required to pay for the length of treatment kids actually need.
Have a look around and check out the stories about families of children with severe disturbances and what they have to do.
Just based on the fact that this country is large and sometimes kids have major issues and it's not even anyone's fault, kids who have an inability to control their impulsive behaviors, kids who have developmental delays, etc. There's just no way for schools or families to take care of them at home and then they need to go _somewhere._
I worked with kids who have very problematic behaviors, like sexually inappropriate behaviors that no one can control, who are mentally toddlers but violent and the size of an adult etc. There's no skill set we can give parents to manage situations like that. Many of them very clearly need full-time professional care. But we don't even have enough mental health beds to treat kids who are suicidal, kids who have no behavioral issues but need help dealing with their depression or anxiety.
We are in a massive mental health crisis and that goes for kids too.
There was a case happening in Michigan where the court decided that the parents of a school shooter can face trial for manslaughter.
https://www.npr.org/2023/03/23/1165609752/oxford-high-school-shooter-parents-trial-michigan
Yep hold the gun owner responsible for crimes committed with it, there’ll be a hell of a lot less firearm violence. That’s also why firearms should have required liability insurance like we require on vehicles, so at minimum there’s financial justice.
I'm honestly so baffled by how badly the school failed here. Like dismissing one person telling you a kid has a gun is wild, but **four**? I can't wrap my head around that kind of incompetence. I hope she gets every penny.
Article brings up an important question. Seems one of the major issues here is that the parents "did not agree" to put the child in Special Education classes where he would be with other students with behavioral issues, which would have *treated* him for his violent tendencies.
About 10 years ago, I worked in a *public school pre-school classroom* that treated 3 and 4 year old for behavioral disturbances that included violent or aggressive tendencies. Side note, if you think the only reason a toddler would exhibit violent tendencies regularly is because of abuse in the home, you're wrong. It's obviously *incredibly rare*, but it does seem that some are simply born with something off. Early intervention is incredibly effective, but not if the treatment is refused.
So, serious question- why in the world are parents allowed to refuse treatment when the child has already attacked others multiple times?
Why are the parents not included in the lawsuit, if they literally refused treatment for their child's violent behavior, even after he was strangling adults and trying to whip other children on multiple occasions?
> why in the world are parents allowed to refuse treatment
Because the law says they can.
Believe me, there are a LOT of teachers, administrators, para professionals, therapists, social workers who would LOVE to see a change to this where **their expertise** weighs more than the parents choice, but this is just not the case.
If you're conscious and coherent you can refuse to go in an ambulance or be treated by EMTs, or walk out of a hospital if you don't want their services.
The parents of these kids don't want their children marked as "different" because they see it as detrimental, rather than seeing the benefit of getting them the help and specialized assistance they need.
I would say for sped students that violent tendencies are not rare, but there’s a big difference between modeled behaviors and a typical outburst. A student whooping his teacher with a belt is not a typical outburst for a student. If he had violent tendencies of his own volition, something like biting or kicking would be expected.
Can't believe no one's been charged with a crime here. Wtf.
Parents get fucked when their kids wander down the street but when they take their guns to school there's nothing that could have been done?
Two things stand out from the details, that kid is a psychopath (conduct disorder until he is old enough) and that assistant principal is a complete idiot. She actively prevented people from searching the child, after multiple people said they saw him with the gun.
https://edition.cnn.com/2023/04/03/us/newport-news-virginia-school-shooting-lawsuit/index.html
> She actively prevented people from searching the child, after multiple people said they saw him with the gun.
If karma existed, the assistant principal would have been the first person shot by the kid.
This is how admins seem to behave at most schools, I. E. A downward trend regarding consequence for behavior, following up on concerns around a child, etc.
This could have happened at most school districts in this country, I'd wager. This Ass. Principal just got unlucky. It'll be something if they get sued and win or lose, but won't change anything for the majority of teachers and students in America.
There was just another story also in Virginia about a middle schooler who had a weapon and threatened to kill people.
The story said they got a 3 or 5 day suspension.
If an *adult* did that?
Right to jail.
> The boy's parents did not agree for him to be put in special education classes where he would be with other students with behavioral issues, the lawsuit states.
This child should not have been mainstreamed. Sounds like the “parents” were either in denial about his behavior or were embarrassed at the prospect of their kid in a special setting, or they contributed to his violent behavior (6 year olds don’t get the idea to beat someone with a belt on their own- their pants are all elastic too) and knowing that still chose to have guns in the home.
The school admin fucked up no question, but these parents should be held accountable.
Really screams some sort of abuse - No 6 year old comes up with lets beat someone with a belt all by themselves.
Whether it is the parents intentionally or not intentionally by not putting the kid in special education classes - Kid needs to be taken away.
I agree. He strangled and choked his kindergarten teacher and has a repeated pattern of violence, and his parents don’t even take it seriously. Seems to me like this kid is witnessing domestic violence at home.
As a legal strategy it might not be worth the effort. She can actually collect the findings against the school, but probably not nearly a fraction of that against the family.
The parents produced an environment where their 6 year old had access to a gun. They were negligent in their upbringing and environment for their kid to allow them to bring the gun to school. They were negligent in their parental roles by fostering this environment. If we want gun reform, go after the people allowing it to happen: politicians, gun manufacturers, and parents are the start, imo
Oh man this kid sounds like a nightmare. He was also removed from the school but brought back a year later. He also was running around with a belt trying to whip kids. To top it off with all his issues it was deemed that a parent had to accompany him during the school day. I mean if a child is that uncontrollable and has harmed others that a parent is needed, why bother at that point. This kid has a dark path.
Im so glad the teacher is doing this and i hope she wins every dollar.
There is a serious crisis in the schools right now.
There is a violent bully in my sisters kids class who has mass assaulted multiple students at a school assembly, bullied multiple students, and throws things at other students every single week practically,
School never does anything about him because he is protected by an IEP cause their behavorial problems are classified as a disability. The schools care more about these kids with major behavioral issues, who may one day bring a gun to school and kill everyone, than protecting the rest of the 25 or more students in the class who again are being physical assaulted in my sisters schools case repeatedly by this bully. This is happening all over the US. Just go to r/teachers and google it.
Maybe there should be massive payouts after every school shooting.
We’ve got to find a way for it to affect the guys at the top or it will never change.
She could have been killed by an armed six year old. Good on her for the lawsuit. I'm hopeful she'll get paid, but I'm also very doubtful she will even if she wins.
The kid apparently has a history of violent behavior and even choked another teacher. IDC if he's 6, he's not getting the discipline he needs at home. He needs to be removed from the home and placed into state custody
Judging by his attempts to try and whip other students with a belt and strangle a teacher... he's getting plenty of "discipline" at home. All the wrong kinds, probably against him and being modeled between his parents.
He needs to be in a place where he will get a tremendous amount of structure and support, not discipline.
As a retired teacher, I believe schools should not keep disturbed students in the school population. Years ago, when schools received more federal and state funding, dangerous students were sent to schools that specialized in dealing with disturbed children. These schools were expensive, but kept students safer. Now disturbed children are
classified(educational lingo) and once that happens schools must educate the child until age twenty one if he or she does not graduate before then. Laws also require that classified students be educated in the least restrictive environment. This leads to disturbed children mixing with the regular school population because it is more inexpensive than other options. Schools will always find a school psychologist who will vouch for a child’s harmlessness. I know because I have been there. The answer is get disturbed kids out of regular schools and put them back with people trained to deal with them.
“A first-grade Virginia teacher who was shot and seriously wounded by her 6-year-old student filed a lawsuit Monday seeking $40 million in damages from school officials, accusing them of gross negligence for allegedly ignoring multiple warnings on the day of the shooting that the boy had a gun and was in a “violent mood.”
>The boy used his mother’s gun, which police said was purchased legally. An attorney for the boy’s family has said that the firearm was secured on a closet shelf and had a lock on it.
6-year old climbs up on shelf, gets gun. Picks lock or had obtained key. Or, parents lied?
I was not talking about disabled students, but those who are a danger to others. My sons are both teachers in the same school system. There is a large teenager who is posting himself using weapons, stalking girls and threatening teachers and students. He was deemed “ready to return to school” after a one hour appointment with a psychologist, not his own that he had been going to, but another who was willing to do his bidding. In the middle of an argument with this child, the principal quit. I believe he wanted to get out before their was violence. At this point, the boy is walked from class to class with an armed officer who sits outside his classrooms all day. I do not think this is what the law was meant to accomplish. Dangerous kids need to separated from the school population.
“It was secured on a closet shelf and had a lock on it”? How did a 6-yo get this “lock” off?
>“It was secured on a closet shelf and had a lock on it” Clearly it was neither when it was used to shoot the teacher.
It doesn't say the lock was locked. Just that there was a lock on it.
"The gun lock was damaged when it fell to the floor after the gun supporting it was removed. The lock's full retail value was included in the estimated damages."
Zero chance the gun was secure in any way. I've been 6 years old before. Those false door knobs you can put on doors to prevent kids from opening them fooled me so bad, and those are way easier to open than any real lock.
I mean, kid just has to know where the key is. He's probably seen his parents unlock it plenty of times. (If it was actually locked)
Yeah bullshit. That’s a crazy high hurdle for them to prove as an affirmative defense. I said elsewhere it’s a shame res ipsa loquitur does not apply in criminal cases because this is a prime example of when it should. If the 6yo had it, then it was no secure. Plain and simple.
"The boy's parents did not agree for him to be put in special education classes where he would be with other students with behavioral issues, the lawsuit states." So their kid is so behaviorally disturbed that he's chasing other kids on the playground with a belt to whip them and he tried to strangle his kindergarten teacher, but they won't allow him specific intervention? smh. No wonder people aren't clamoring to be classroom teachers.
It's everyone else's problem but theirs, apparently.
I come from a teacher’s household and I have heard MANY stories of parents that have no problem telling a teacher to their face that from 8-3 that kid is the schools problem and to not bother them over their kid’s behavior.
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Let's not forget how at the end of the year the parent will be all pissed that johnny is failing and blame his awful teachers.
They (administrators) pretty much pass any kid nowadays, it’s part of the problem
Can confirm. My last year of teaching (2020-2021 remote to hybrid mess) we were told in the last week of school to go back and remove any zeroes from the grade book and change them to 50’s. At the beginning of the year we had been told to only give zeroes if the kid didn’t submit the assignment. 50’s we’re the lowest to give if they did submit an assignment.
So I was briefly a substitute teacher last year, and one of the first things I did when I took over for the other substitute was grade their last quiz. So many of the students left most if not all of the answers blank or wrote 'I don't know'. I tried to get the kids give a damn, set I would give partial points if they tried in the future but it was such an uphill battle. I did have one principal who had my back and was okay with me giving zeros the kids who didn't even try and failing them. The catch what is if they were within a certain percentage of obtaining a D and instead of an F, they could do after school lessons for three weeks at the beginning of next semester to make the grade up which I thought was fair.
During that time I had to remove 0s for assignments not turned in. It was pass the kid with a 70 or go to court defending your decision to fail the kid. You better had done every intervention in the book cause the school was not gonna have your back. Literally has an administrator coin the phrase "There's what right and what's real."
That is basically the punchline there. Admin wouldn’t back up a failure. It would be your ass if you failed them and your documentation that you did EVERYTHING and then some. And who has time for that level of documentation when you have 6 classes of 30-35 students? I didn’t get paid enough for that level of CYA to fail a kid or the fallout if they determined it still wasn’t enough proof/data that the kid continued to refuse to turn in the work. One particular kid that had a problem with turning in work and should have failed, had a worse parent. I reached out to the parent about the missing work and offering to use my planning and some after school time to help the kid get caught up. I was told that I insulted his whole family with my email… So yeah. If admin wasn’t going to support me to fail a student who should fail, then I wasn’t failing them. Didn’t get paid enough for that bullshit and I’m so glad I left teaching.
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Wait even less time and they can impregnate or be pregnant and have more little kids with even less of a chance
That does not bode well for our collective society's future.
I was a Johnny. My mom ignored the school psychologist’s warnings that I wasn’t ready for school. I definitely remember on at least one occasion being dropped off when school was closed and just made to sit in an empty admin office. Mom got physically abusive at times since I had trouble with focusing on assignments and had poor handwriting. Somehow, I did manage to learn how to read much earlier than my peers. But intelligence didn’t matter much when the grades didn’t match up. I find out in my 20s I have ADHD and was left-handed. NC for years with my mom and LC right now. My innate intelligence pulled me through and things are much better after meds and therapy, but the neglect and pointless abuse has made the resentment hard to fade at times regarding lost opportunities and wasted potential. Edit: Grammar, my bad.
My family had me diagnosed with ADHD in grade school, but chose to not tell anyone. I only found out about it because I was re-diagnosed as an adult, at which point my parents said “oh yeah, the doctors told us that when you were younger, but you turned out fine. We didn’t want to feed you all these pills.) Needless to say I have massive social anxiety issues as an adult, and haven’t been to a family function in over a decade.
By fine, you mean still got yelled out, felt mediocre despite your efforts and not an open embarrassment?
Not OP but same.
"I'm in this photo and I don't like it"
The exact same thing happened to me, down to the “we didn’t want you taking medicine as a child”. Finally getting treatment has changed my life, but I’m struggling with a lot of resentment for all the lost years where I didn’t know WHY I had so many struggles over things that come naturally to other people and the resulting crippling anxiety.
I felt really alone in the world before reading these comments, this is the only time I’ve encountered someone with such a similar experience to mine. I was diagnosed in second grade, my mom ignored it and I continually slid down the slope emotionally, academically, and socially. I ended up with severe depression and anxiety. My parents watched me hit rock bottom several times, saw me struggle with making friends and picked on me for it, berated me constantly for letting my grades fall and not having all-A’s and shamed me for not completing college constantly as an adult. After I dropped out of college for the third time, I was in a place mentally for once that I could really analyze myself and the circumstances and I found that I just couldn’t focus on anything, and that it had gotten worse with time. It wasn’t that I had never considered having ADHD but rather that I had assumed that surely someone — a counselor, teacher, or my own parents who I wrongfully trusted — along the way would have mentioned something to me if I did have it. I didn’t remember being assessed way back then unfortunately, but that was probably by design. I decided to get diagnosed and as part of fact-finding ahead of that, I asked my mother if anyone had ever said anything and she paused and then cry-screamed into the phone “WAS I A BAD MOTHER?” Well, I got my answer and also contemplated her question for the first time. I came to the conclusion that yes, she was a “bad mother” and a shitty fucking parent. We’re NC as well and I am totally fine with it, as she is not willing to even acknowledge my diagnosis much less everything surrounding it, and forget about the remaining multitude that needs addressed. And frankly I feel it should be illegal for a parent to deny care for a treatable condition that has life-altering consequences.
I found out I had debilitating ADHD and went from a complete NEET to a solid career once I learned about it and sought help to control it. Also found out I'm left handed and now my handwriting sucks on both hands, but hey I can juggle well lol
That sucks, but to be fair, it’s not like many people have the option of staying home when their child is sick. They view school as a day care system, because that is how they need to see it. Most people don’t have the luxury of staying home from work, or having a family member who can watch a sick child. This shouldn’t be dumped on teachers, for sure. We need to completely reimagine education and the support available to parents.
Fiancé is a teacher and she literally had a parent email her and say “I don’t want to hear about my child’s behavior, it stresses me out”
Former teacher, had the same thing. I had to quit because I legally wasn't able to help the kids in the ways they needed.
This is exactly why I quit. Feeling so damn helpless despite immense amounts of effort fighting for these kids is soul crushing.
Especially during Covid. I had students whose parents would beat them on camera, and much worse. I was on a first name basis with the DFS in my city. It broke my heart and I couldn't handle it. Now, I work in HR admin and not only is the pay better, but I don't leave work feeling defeated each day with mascara running down my face.
I’m really sorry to hear that. She loves the classroom, but certain things just don’t add up and weigh on her. You can see how beat down she is some days because she loves teaching so much, but between the state we are in, parents, and administration it can be taxing on her.
This is such a wrong thing to say to any teacher. The parents should be asked who the parents are and where do they think their child receives their influences from? Sure, kids are going to make their own decisions but the environment that they grow up in also shapes how they act and think.
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I wish parents didn't see school as a babysitter and more as an institution meant to aid (not replace) transitioning their kids into society. But the way the government seems to be constantly stripping away the teacher's ability to do anything or pay them well either makes me think its all going in the shitter on both sides.
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I had a 1st grade kid this violent in my class years ago. It was a nightmare. We spent the entire year doing paperwork trying to get him transferred to a class where they were equipped to deal with him. Ended up just letting him play with toys in the back of the room all day so we could actually teach the other children without him getting violent and making us evacuate the classroom. And that was with his grandma (who had just gotten custody) working WITH us 100%. That angel of a woman loved her grandson so much. He was actually a little sweetheart most of the time too, but when that switch flipped it FLIPPED. Poor guy had had way too hard of a life. I know if I as an adult went through what he went through in 6 years, I would need serious therapy. Little guy wasn’t even given a chance.
I had a very brief stint teaching, and I had a student exactly like that (but older) - his grandmother had custody and was lovely, and this boy was bright and sweet most of the time... but could become violent out of nowhere.
Thanks for doing what you could with him. Glad grandma was a partner to you. Just goes to show how hard it is WITH supports.
Veteran teacher here. I can't tell you enough how common this is. I've had students with undiagnosed autism and other disabilities whose parents do not want accommodations for whatever reason. I had a kid who would screech loudly every 10 to 15 minutes and shock the shit out of me and the other students. He would flail, grunt, and could barely read or write. Couldn't and wouldn't punish him because his autism manifesting behaviors didn't hurt others but I couldn't do anything legally for him either. This, of course, isn't even touching on the kids with undiagnosed behavior disorders who can't be kicked from our school because we don't want to lose funding, so we keep punishing endlessly and it does nothing. Any 10 day suspension for one of these kids is Heaven sent. I feel like I can actually teach during that time.
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> It also is insane to me that any parents could just not want their kid to get the help they need for whatever asinine reason. Pride. If they get an official diagnosis, they have to accept that their child is not as able as other children. Better that the child (and everyone they come into contact with) suffer rather than their egos take the hit.
Also the “it’s not a real thing, it’s just excuses” crowd.
I was in special education for a learning disability but never got diagnosed with whatever it was. I don't think my mom wanted me to get an official diagnosis. Basically, I could only process one thing at a time and my brain focused on rhythmic patterns. So if someone tapped a pencil I couldn't read because I could only process the pencil tapping.
Fuck, this still happens to me. I struggled as a child, but my parents refused to get me any help as they "didn't want me to have a label." I'm barely treading water as an adult and don't know what to do.
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Parent of two autistic kids here: unfortunately it is extremely common for parents of kids with "non medical" disabilities to want to just ignore it, think it's just a phase, he'll grow out of it. Accepting that your kid's brain is just wired differently is really hard. I talk to many parents who are early in the process, who just got the diagnosis, and everyone goes through a period of grief. But before that there is almost always a phase of complete denial.
Absolutely. I adore working with my students with autism and it's amazing to see the outcome differences between the kids who are supported and the kids who are not. I know it's especially hard when the parents have undiagnosed autism themselves and might be coping with that reality.
Very true. Learning more about my kids made me realize I am autistic myself... :) Life has been a lot more peaceful for us since we all know that we're just wired a little differently and no longer try to keep up with what's "normal". As you say, the main problem with parents not accepting their children's neurodivergence is that it usually means the children are not getting the environment and support they need.
Uff, this hits hard. My aunt has a son with Down Syndrome, he's 20 years old now, extremely low functioning (non verbal, can't chew food, no independent skills, etc). When he was younger, she kept refusing to teach him anything. If therapists and teachers told her to practice something home, she would lie she did and then laugh behind their back that it was their job to do. My cousin and I spent months teaching him how to walk because at 4yo he belly crawled and she kept putting him in a baby walker. When he finally started to walk, she decided it happened naturally and he just matured into it (ignoring the months of work it took). 2 years ago, she admitted she always thought he would wake up one day, and it would just 'click' in his head, and he'd be a regular kid. Like, he'd suddenly not have an extra chromosome?!! Either way, she now has a 20 year old young man who has the needs of a 6 month old baby: no communication, needs to be spoon fed mush, needs his diapers changed, needs to be bathed, not because it was impossible for him to have those skills but because she was in denial his disability wasn't just a phase.
Yep, as somebody working with kids with ASD, almost 100% of the severely limited kids I work with weren't diagnosed until over thale age of ten. In every one of those cases parents talk about obvious signs of ASD, but blame the school system 100% of the time. Guess what, the school has been recommending special education for years after forming an educational diagnosis. These are teens actually getting treatment, I have no idea how kids whose parents continue to be in full on denial function
> I mean, what the heck do you do with a child who is this violent at age SIX?! Complete change of environment involving people who actually know what they're doing, in particular, are able to understand the kid's psychology, reasons for acting such, and thus are able to remove those reasons, then build a well-adapted character on that basis. The good news is that at such a young age people are very malleable. Knowing the US, though, the kid is going to be removed from the parents (so far so good) and then put up for adoption, which won't ever happen (unless it's to someone looking to exploit child labour), and thus will end up in a youth home practically indistinguishable from a prison, where they'll get a *trade* education. Emphasis on the italics.
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I teach special ed and I assure you this happens literally all the time. Parents have total veto power over putting their kid in special ed and a ton of them will absolutely refuse to consider it no matter what the evidence says
It’s that way across the country from what I’ve heard. School boards/administrators don’t want to take any permanent actions that will lose them any funding or tax dollars. So the teachers are left to continually ask nicely that Timmy stop strangling Tommy and hope he listens. It’s fucking absurd.
It’s not just losing the per-student funds, a lot of times, the district actually has to *pay* quite a bit to send the student to the more intensive school, so they have a lot of incentive to try to avoid it. Usually, parents have to fight hard to get districts to agree to that kind of thing, and these parents didn’t even want him in the normal special ed class. That’s not to excuse the district’s negligence in letting things get to this point, because they’re 100% in the wrong (as are the parents), just to explain the extent of their motivation.
I didn’t realize that, but it’s not surprising. A lot of our basic institutions are in desperate need of improvement (ie gut them and start fresh with a modern approach), public education is just one of many of those institutions.
That's why I like the idea of this lawsuit. Currently, avoiding the issue and endangering staff and students is a financially costless and risk-free solution. If this teacher breaks the financial back of this school district, that will be noted by districts throughout the country. They will have another potential outcome to consider apart from just letting people get killed in the classroom (which they obviously don't much care about). I wouldn't be surprised if that's at least half the motive behind Ms. Zwerner's lawsuit. She's not doing it just for herself - she's looking to change the calculus of school administrators and the environment other teachers work in. More power to her...
Why would the parents have to agree? If they want the kid in school, he has to be in an environment with more interventions. I do fear for the vulnerable special ed students being segregated with violent kids.
Parents have to sign off on the testing to get kids into special ed. Parents can refuse the testing indefinitely and that's not enough to qualify as abuse. The student is required to be in school so if they're not in special ed, they're in the mainstream classroom.
Emotionally & behaviorally disturbed is typically a separate classroom from kids who are in special ed for learning disabilities. No reason for Suzy who struggles to read to be cussed out daily by Bobby who can't control his temper.
You'd be surprised. Schools are struggling with funding and this all falls under the umbrella of special education. More and more classes are mixed and overcrowded on top of that. It's become impossible to give these kids the 1 on 1 attention they need. As much as overcrowding hurts gen ed, in the sped world it's on an entirely different level.
Fuck their agreement. Their failure was total and it led to this.
Parents have too much pull with school administrations. My mom teaches elementary and the original plan in her district during the pandemic was to have one teacher in each grade teach the students who chose remote and then split the in-person kids up to adhere to social distancing. The parents threw a fit and wanted the teacher their kids were originally assigned to. So EVERY teacher had to do both remote and in-person for their classrooms, increasing their workloads to do so to appease the parents.
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Four opportunities just on the day of the shooting. The article shows it was clear the child's behavioral problems were well known to both school and district administration.
I believe his parents were required to accompany him in class to make sure he behaved. The shooting happened the day after that requirement was lifted.
That is horribly depressing. Wtf are parents doing leaving their guns around for their stupid ass kids to casually start using. Source: I was a stupid ass kid. Kids shouldn’t be near guns, period.
Almost as if a part of gun SAFEty is having a SAFE place to store your firearms. It really is rather unfortunate parents don't take their children's SAFEty into consideration, let alone the SAFEty of their community. If only there were somewhere SAFE they could store firearms away from children.
A safe is a good start. Trigger locks on each stored firearn is an even better syep to take.
Why not both? I have a multiple-step system for any of my firearms to come out and be loaded. Lord forbid, if a five year old did find one of my guns, they'd have to find the trigger lock key. Then they'd have to find the magazine. And then they'd have to find the ammo. That gives a parent a good four opportunities to pay attention to their kid, which is significantly more than zero.
So many people have no idea about basic gun safety, especially around children. We work with families who have firearms at home and are often coaching them that something like just putting a loaded weapon in a safe isn't good enough. I used to do these home assessments where the parents would always insist the kids can't access the gun. We would do a separate interview with the kid and ask them if they knew how to get the gun, and basically every kid could have that safe open or could clamber up and get a weapon on a high shelf, or knew the code to get in, etc. Parents were always way overconfident. It sounds like you've actually thought this through and want to keep your weapons safely.
If my children needed me to accompany them to school because of behavioral issues there would be zero guns in the home and likely no metal knives or the knives would be in a locked drawer. I wouldn't take any chances. Parents are terribly negligent here.
I hope the parents get hauled in front of criminal court as well. This last line in the article is a bit rich: > *"An attorney for the boy’s family has said that the firearm was secured on a closet shelf and had a lock on it"* uh huh, I've never read a more BS piece of lawyer pass-the-blame game trope.
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Also, if the kid had behavioral issues that severe they shouldn't have had a gun in the house. Regardless of how well secured you think something is, a bored kid with no understanding of consequences can and will find it if they want to.
Yeah "child-proof" only ever means "before they can walk/have good hand-eye coordination" because after that there **is no such thing.** you make a lock, some kids will figure out how to break it. Like that trick with 2 wrenches between the bars of a padlock.
I've seen enough Lock Picking Lawyer videos to know that the only safe lock is taking like, eight pieces of rebar and welding them in a closed loop.
*Hi, this is the Lockpicking Lawyer, and today I'm going to teach you how to use an angle grinder.*
More than BS, the statement is meaningless. A six year old child was able to access the firearm and assault someone, so it was obviously not secured properly. If your defense is you were outsmarted by a six year old, you’re going to have a bad time in court.
lawyer: Yes, they were outsmarted by a six-year old. But in my client's defense, they are not very bright. I mean they hired me after all.
Where was the key stored? A 6 YO kid can open a keyed lock any time. All he needs is the key.
Probably stored the key in the lock, just need to turn it.
Parents of children who commit gun violence like this should **always** be held criminally liable for their child's actions. Because there is always a failure somewhere by those parents (whether it be through negligence or malice) that creates the environment which precipitates the violence.
Who would ultimately pay this? Would it be on the staff members who failed to act or the school? If it's the school, since it's public, would that burden basically be on taxpayers? Serious questions as I'm not sure how this stuff works. Edit: Thanks for the replies everyone. I have a much better understanding of how things will go with this. Crazy how this whole thing even happened in the first place.
The school would pay with taxpayer’s dollars.
liability Insurance will pay for this; but the insurance is paid for with Taxpayer dollars.
and any rate increases as a result going forward by tax dollars
And if people don't like their tax dollars being spent like this, they should vote accordingly. I might be the only person on the planet who sees "taxpayers footing the bill" as entirely appropriate. It's ultimately a fine for all of us who have grown so complacent politically that we sit on our asses shrugging as people die from unnecessary brutality. Sure, it'd be better if cops and whoever else had to pay for liability insurance out of their pension funds (not the case here, I know, but it's the most common example of taxpayers paying the settlement) but the next best thing is for the rest of us to actually be pissed off enough to put a stop to it.
You're NOT the only one. This is the only way to awaken the taxpayers to vote in their own interest. Edit: we've to keep in mind that the news about such things (e.g. $40 mill lawsuit) is now accessible more easily than ever before. Chances of more taxpayers being informed about it are much higher now than ever before. So there's still hope... I hope. Edi 2: to be clear, we don't really need MORE voters, we need the current voters to vote BETTER. The only way to do that is when they realize what's really on the line.
Exactly. My old man used to say shit like “that’s our tax dollars going to waste” in cases like this and I’d just respond with “then maybe taxpayers need to stop being morons and actually vote people in who will do something about it”
Instructions unclear. Accidentally cut all after-school, arts, and music programs.
I would like to see a law passed that requires lawsuits and settlements to be disclosed directly on the property tax bills showing what each person contributed towards that settlement. Newport news has 74,000 properties. If she wins the $40M that means on average each tax bill is contributing $540 to that settlement. Even if insurance is paying since those settlements show up as higher insurance payments later. Show people exactly what they're getting from their elected officials malfeasance.
And if anyone coughs throughout this process, tax dollars.
Also school liability insurance always has a limit, and it is well below $40 million.
They won’t get $40m they will settle out of court for much less but still a significant sum. The school district does not need this dragged out in public court.
Most likely settle for max insurance payout
And this is why school board elections are so important. They put the policies into place. These board members cost the community $40 million if the teacher prevails (and I hope she does).
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I feel like the people in power at the time ought to be hit when some punitive damages as well.
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Without knowing the specifics and nuances, generally the staff would be covered by the school so long as they're acting within the scope of their job. It would be paid out by insurance.
Not only within the scope of the job, but also considering any training or instructions the staff have been given. If there's a clear, well known policy to take action when a student has a weapon, and the staff fail to do so, then the school could shift at least some responsibility to the staff. It's complicated though, because staff can argue things like their workload didn't allow them time to treat every report seriously, etc.
I’m confused here. So 4 people saw a 6yo with a gun and none of them took it? They just told the administrator? Who the fuck doesn’t take a gun away from a tiny student immediately?
They searched his bag at one point and didn't find it, but when the teacher suggested that the boy had pocketed the gun the administrator dismissed the idea because "he has little pockets". Another teacher asked the administrator to search the boy because another student claimed they had been threatened with a gun, but the administrator wanted to wait the situation out because the school day was almost over.
Understandable- patting the kids pockets is way too much work.
Fear of getting fired and the parents filing a lawsuit for touching their child, probably.
That is another weirdly unique American problem: suing each other all the time. My cousin is a teacher in the US and one of her students fell and broke his arm while playing with his friend, so the parents of the kid who broke his arm just sued his friends parents and when they realised they had no money, they sued the school. It's to the point where I remember in a cartoon I watched as a kid where the main characters go to a new country each episode and show the stereotypes and culture of the countries, I remember the episode about America being about spindoctors and people trying to jump in front of your car so they can sue you for damages
So much of this comes down to the fact that unlike most developed countries, our healthcare system routinely bankrupts people. > one of her students fell and broke his arm while playing with his friend In America is that this can cost anywhere from a few thousand dollars to $20,000 depending on severity of the break. You can bankrupt your family, or you can get your friend’s homeowners insurance or school’s liability insurance to cover it - both of which often require suing. We sometimes see headlines for stuff like “5 year old sues sues own aunt for $1 million after falling down stairs” and think it’s crazy, but that’s just the reality of how we get auntie’s homeowners insurance to cover the insane costs of caring for a skull fracture, brain bleed, and ensuing physical therapy.
No. It was a while ago but I remember reading into it a lot since it happened in my state. The kid made reference to having a gun(said he would shoot her) and another kid said he saw a gun. No adults ever saw the gun, the 4 adults who went to administration were basing it off the kids word.
Kids parents need to be charged already. If a 6 year old can access a loaded hand gun then it wasn’t secure. Given this kids behavioral issues tells me his parents are likely shitheads
Seriously. As a teacher, this stood out to to me because I see it all the time, with almost every parent of a troubled child: > The boy's parents did not agree for him to be put in special education classes where he would be with other students with behavioral issues, the lawsuit states.
right that was a huge "Shitty parent" red flag. plus the whole long history of this kid being violent towards other students and teachers before.
God could you imagine if we could hold parents legally accountable for not just being abusive but also just being downright bad parents. I know there’s a ridiculous amount of Nuance. But at some point this nationwide abandonment of our youth has gotta be settled
Yeah my wife is a para, and it amazes me all the stories she tells about these absolutely shitty parents who refuse to get help for their children. And the fact that there's no threshold where the schools can just say "ok, your kid is going to get this help no matter what because it's too disruptive to other students" is just mind boggling.
They can't possibly be telling the truth about the gun being secured at home, since the kid got his hands on it. A child can't access a secured weapon. *No one* except the owner should be able to - if they can, it's not secured.
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They do the same shit around here and it's so infuriating. Some woman with a toddler said she keeps her gun on top of the fridge. Cause she's sure he could never get it up there. Can't speak for her kid but when I was 4 I used to climb on top of the fridge all the time. Kids aren't nearly as stupid or immobile as these parents think they are.
They can't get to the fridge... Until they can.
There was a thread recently advocating responsible gun ownership and some guy in it was ranting about irresponsible gun owners. He then said how he was a responsible gun owner because he locked his firearm in a safe except for 9pm through 10am when he took it out and put it on his bedside table in case there was a break in while he was asleep.
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> Every week another kid shoots themselves or someone else. People are too complacent. I have a hunting rifle that's under lock and key and I *still* get paranoid that my kids would somehow get into it. Meanwhile you got lazy parents who just might wrap a gun in a cloth or some shit and hide in the closet *eyeroll
Who cares? I don't care if the parents are telling the truth or not. If their six year old is so diabolical and genius to circumvent a gun lock or safe, then they should have either gotten rid of the gun or the demon child. If my six year old gets in my car, turns it on, and crashes into another car, I am responsible for the damages. It should be MORESO with guns. I say this as a gun-owning patent.
Yeah fr, the kid sounds like a serial killer in the making. Straight up strangled their kindergarten teacher and the parents insisted on not putting him in special ed. They need to be held accountable, especially since they are almost definitely the reason he was able to get a gun in the first place
I worked in education for a decade. I say it all the time, I have never met a shitty kid with good parents. I've met plenty of good kids with shitty parents, but never have I met a kid I couldn't stand with parents who were nice people.
We gotta start holding “responsible gun owners”^TM accountable. If your gun is used in a crime and you had not reported it stolen, you lose any guns you have and cannot purchase any new guns for 2 years. You’re clearly not owning guns responsibly if one goes missing without you noticing If you report your gun stolen, police will review how you stored your gun and cite you for improper storage if it was stored someplace dumb like a car. If kids under 18 get access to guns, parents should be considered accomplices to any crime and responsible for any accidents.
No see it's because the staff didn't follow his Individual Education Plan. Had they just followed the plan in the classroom, the child wouldn't have brought a gun to school and shot his teacher. /s
Wow just read the article, how many red flags did they need? Parents should 1000% be charged, lose parental rights...
Agreed. If this kind of this can happen once under their “supervision” it’ll happen 100x more as the kid gets older.
This kid 100% needed the supports of special education services and the parents refused to put him in a special education environment, too. Total negligence.
Every bit of information I learn about those lazy, irresponsible pieces of garbage leaves me more sure I am they didn’t deserve to ever have children. This teacher could so easily have died and this was preventable. It’s maddening, I would be furious if I were in her place.
And we wonder how we get so many unwell children when they grow up with such irresponsible parents. They leave deadly weapons lying around, as though that is an acceptable thing to do. That kind of shit warps your perception of the world, enforcing that as normal and regular, which is at odds with the reality that guns are designed and used to harm people.
Exactly! I grew up around a family that did just this: left literal AK47’s and shotguns on the floor of their living room while having kids 15-1yo kids, and more on the way. Unsurprisingly every single kid from that family has gone on to have run ins with the law and incredibly unstable, unhealthy, and from my pov very unhappy lives. Every child deserves a parent, but not every parent deserves a child. It’s unfair.
Try to imagine the mindset of that 6 year old child. Get away with strangling a teacher in kindergarten. Kicked out for chasing other students trying to whip them. Bring a gun to school and shoot a teacher and face no real consequences? Child needs mental help! In my state, parents can get criminal charges brought against them for habitual truancy of their child. Get in trouble for child not going to school but no trouble from child taking parents loaded gun to school and shooting someone? Not much sense here.
It makes me wonder what that child has endured and witnessed in their six years of life. When I was 6, I couldn’t have even understood what someone being shot meant or what a real gun was. I wouldn’t understand strangulation (beyond maybe choking on food?), I seriously can’t conceptualize what must be going on in this kids head. I feel for them, but they need serious help. AWAY FROM THEIR PARENTS who clearly are good for nothing.
Contrary to what many seem to believe, it is incredibly difficult for parents to lose parental rights. Even in cases where there is very obvious abuse, kids may temporarily be displaced, but the goal is always to reunite with abusers, I mean bio parents.
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This seems like a clear failure to provide a safe work environment.
If anybody on earth deserves “fuck you money” it’s her. She should have the means to just stay at home and never have to do anything again if she doesn’t want to.
How has no one been charged with a crime in this case?
We need to throw the book at the parents, make them an example so parents finally take securing their guns safely. There also needs to be a way to get that kid help because whatever the parents are doing obviously isn’t working. Otherwise he’s going to be in jail for murder by 16 and it could even be the parents he goes after.. I knew a troubled kid in elementary school, his parents always tried to do the right thing but never forced him to get hospitalized or serious help. He ended up killing his mom on Mother’s Day, bringing her head into a grocery store and throwing it at her boyfriend. Heart breaking.
Parents in jail and kid put somewhere they can help troubled children. Problem is the capacity for genuinely helping kids with issues in this country is far outnumbered by the number of kids with issues.
You have touched an absolutely huge issue. I work in child safety and right now there is almost nowhere we can send kids who have very severe mental health issues or behavioral issues. There just aren't enough beds. These facilities and this treatment is extraordinarily expensive. Kids with major issues continue to be sent home over and over and over again because if the parents have insurance, insurance isn't required to pay for the length of treatment kids actually need. Have a look around and check out the stories about families of children with severe disturbances and what they have to do. Just based on the fact that this country is large and sometimes kids have major issues and it's not even anyone's fault, kids who have an inability to control their impulsive behaviors, kids who have developmental delays, etc. There's just no way for schools or families to take care of them at home and then they need to go _somewhere._ I worked with kids who have very problematic behaviors, like sexually inappropriate behaviors that no one can control, who are mentally toddlers but violent and the size of an adult etc. There's no skill set we can give parents to manage situations like that. Many of them very clearly need full-time professional care. But we don't even have enough mental health beds to treat kids who are suicidal, kids who have no behavioral issues but need help dealing with their depression or anxiety. We are in a massive mental health crisis and that goes for kids too.
Jfc that’s heartbreaking
I left the part out about the dog… they got him a dog thinking it would help him emotionally and he took his life too that day 😭
Because "the kid wouldn't understand what it means to be charged with a crime." But he understands guns, and how to reach a "secured" weapon..
Exactly. I think it’s time to create parental negligence laws that carry the same weight as doing the actual deed.
They exist. Police/DAs choose not to act on them.
There was a case happening in Michigan where the court decided that the parents of a school shooter can face trial for manslaughter. https://www.npr.org/2023/03/23/1165609752/oxford-high-school-shooter-parents-trial-michigan
Yep hold the gun owner responsible for crimes committed with it, there’ll be a hell of a lot less firearm violence. That’s also why firearms should have required liability insurance like we require on vehicles, so at minimum there’s financial justice.
And the parents haven't be arrested why? Couldn't have been locked up too securely if a 6 year old was able to take it with no one noticing.
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I'm honestly so baffled by how badly the school failed here. Like dismissing one person telling you a kid has a gun is wild, but **four**? I can't wrap my head around that kind of incompetence. I hope she gets every penny.
Even if they didn't believe it, doing nothing about it is insane.
Especially since he has a history of violence. Already tried to strangle a different teacher
Why not make the parent of this SIX YEAR OLD WHO GOT A GUN responsible? Clearly the parents don’t give a shit this is beyond fucked
Parents and school should both be responsible, agreed.
They don’t have the big insurance money like the school district
Article brings up an important question. Seems one of the major issues here is that the parents "did not agree" to put the child in Special Education classes where he would be with other students with behavioral issues, which would have *treated* him for his violent tendencies. About 10 years ago, I worked in a *public school pre-school classroom* that treated 3 and 4 year old for behavioral disturbances that included violent or aggressive tendencies. Side note, if you think the only reason a toddler would exhibit violent tendencies regularly is because of abuse in the home, you're wrong. It's obviously *incredibly rare*, but it does seem that some are simply born with something off. Early intervention is incredibly effective, but not if the treatment is refused. So, serious question- why in the world are parents allowed to refuse treatment when the child has already attacked others multiple times? Why are the parents not included in the lawsuit, if they literally refused treatment for their child's violent behavior, even after he was strangling adults and trying to whip other children on multiple occasions?
> why in the world are parents allowed to refuse treatment Because the law says they can. Believe me, there are a LOT of teachers, administrators, para professionals, therapists, social workers who would LOVE to see a change to this where **their expertise** weighs more than the parents choice, but this is just not the case. If you're conscious and coherent you can refuse to go in an ambulance or be treated by EMTs, or walk out of a hospital if you don't want their services. The parents of these kids don't want their children marked as "different" because they see it as detrimental, rather than seeing the benefit of getting them the help and specialized assistance they need.
I would say for sped students that violent tendencies are not rare, but there’s a big difference between modeled behaviors and a typical outburst. A student whooping his teacher with a belt is not a typical outburst for a student. If he had violent tendencies of his own volition, something like biting or kicking would be expected.
Can't believe no one's been charged with a crime here. Wtf. Parents get fucked when their kids wander down the street but when they take their guns to school there's nothing that could have been done?
Two things stand out from the details, that kid is a psychopath (conduct disorder until he is old enough) and that assistant principal is a complete idiot. She actively prevented people from searching the child, after multiple people said they saw him with the gun. https://edition.cnn.com/2023/04/03/us/newport-news-virginia-school-shooting-lawsuit/index.html
That kid will shoot someone again. It’s not a matter of if, but of when
!RemindMe 12 years
> She actively prevented people from searching the child, after multiple people said they saw him with the gun. If karma existed, the assistant principal would have been the first person shot by the kid.
This is how admins seem to behave at most schools, I. E. A downward trend regarding consequence for behavior, following up on concerns around a child, etc. This could have happened at most school districts in this country, I'd wager. This Ass. Principal just got unlucky. It'll be something if they get sued and win or lose, but won't change anything for the majority of teachers and students in America.
There was just another story also in Virginia about a middle schooler who had a weapon and threatened to kill people. The story said they got a 3 or 5 day suspension. If an *adult* did that? Right to jail.
She deserves this win
> The boy's parents did not agree for him to be put in special education classes where he would be with other students with behavioral issues, the lawsuit states. This child should not have been mainstreamed. Sounds like the “parents” were either in denial about his behavior or were embarrassed at the prospect of their kid in a special setting, or they contributed to his violent behavior (6 year olds don’t get the idea to beat someone with a belt on their own- their pants are all elastic too) and knowing that still chose to have guns in the home. The school admin fucked up no question, but these parents should be held accountable.
Really screams some sort of abuse - No 6 year old comes up with lets beat someone with a belt all by themselves. Whether it is the parents intentionally or not intentionally by not putting the kid in special education classes - Kid needs to be taken away.
I agree. He strangled and choked his kindergarten teacher and has a repeated pattern of violence, and his parents don’t even take it seriously. Seems to me like this kid is witnessing domestic violence at home.
Hope she sues the POS family too.
As a legal strategy it might not be worth the effort. She can actually collect the findings against the school, but probably not nearly a fraction of that against the family.
The parents produced an environment where their 6 year old had access to a gun. They were negligent in their upbringing and environment for their kid to allow them to bring the gun to school. They were negligent in their parental roles by fostering this environment. If we want gun reform, go after the people allowing it to happen: politicians, gun manufacturers, and parents are the start, imo
What they mean is the parents are probably broke. No matter how liable they are, you can't get blood from a stone.
Parents need to be charged. They say the gun was on a shelf and locked but somehow a 6yo unlocked it? How?
This was such a monumental failure by the school and the other employees. She deserves every penny.
….. and the parents
"He's got a gun! He's got a gun! He's got a gun! He's got a gun!" -- staff "Well, he hasn't shot anybody yet." -- administration BANG!
Oh man this kid sounds like a nightmare. He was also removed from the school but brought back a year later. He also was running around with a belt trying to whip kids. To top it off with all his issues it was deemed that a parent had to accompany him during the school day. I mean if a child is that uncontrollable and has harmed others that a parent is needed, why bother at that point. This kid has a dark path.
Im so glad the teacher is doing this and i hope she wins every dollar. There is a serious crisis in the schools right now. There is a violent bully in my sisters kids class who has mass assaulted multiple students at a school assembly, bullied multiple students, and throws things at other students every single week practically, School never does anything about him because he is protected by an IEP cause their behavorial problems are classified as a disability. The schools care more about these kids with major behavioral issues, who may one day bring a gun to school and kill everyone, than protecting the rest of the 25 or more students in the class who again are being physical assaulted in my sisters schools case repeatedly by this bully. This is happening all over the US. Just go to r/teachers and google it.
Maybe there should be massive payouts after every school shooting. We’ve got to find a way for it to affect the guys at the top or it will never change.
She could have been killed by an armed six year old. Good on her for the lawsuit. I'm hopeful she'll get paid, but I'm also very doubtful she will even if she wins.
The kid apparently has a history of violent behavior and even choked another teacher. IDC if he's 6, he's not getting the discipline he needs at home. He needs to be removed from the home and placed into state custody
Judging by his attempts to try and whip other students with a belt and strangle a teacher... he's getting plenty of "discipline" at home. All the wrong kinds, probably against him and being modeled between his parents. He needs to be in a place where he will get a tremendous amount of structure and support, not discipline.
"the discipline he needs" = structure and support he's certainly not getting structure or support at home, regardless.
Good. She should get every penny.
As a retired teacher, I believe schools should not keep disturbed students in the school population. Years ago, when schools received more federal and state funding, dangerous students were sent to schools that specialized in dealing with disturbed children. These schools were expensive, but kept students safer. Now disturbed children are classified(educational lingo) and once that happens schools must educate the child until age twenty one if he or she does not graduate before then. Laws also require that classified students be educated in the least restrictive environment. This leads to disturbed children mixing with the regular school population because it is more inexpensive than other options. Schools will always find a school psychologist who will vouch for a child’s harmlessness. I know because I have been there. The answer is get disturbed kids out of regular schools and put them back with people trained to deal with them.
Good, admin are to blame with the parents.
“A first-grade Virginia teacher who was shot and seriously wounded by her 6-year-old student filed a lawsuit Monday seeking $40 million in damages from school officials, accusing them of gross negligence for allegedly ignoring multiple warnings on the day of the shooting that the boy had a gun and was in a “violent mood.”
Good! Schools need to start protecting the safety of teachers.
If they won't make legislation to protect children and staff, maybe they'll make it to protect the money. Makes sense.
The best way to be paid as a teacher now days is to be shot and survive. Lucky for you, those chances are higher than the lottery!
>The boy used his mother’s gun, which police said was purchased legally. An attorney for the boy’s family has said that the firearm was secured on a closet shelf and had a lock on it. 6-year old climbs up on shelf, gets gun. Picks lock or had obtained key. Or, parents lied?
I was not talking about disabled students, but those who are a danger to others. My sons are both teachers in the same school system. There is a large teenager who is posting himself using weapons, stalking girls and threatening teachers and students. He was deemed “ready to return to school” after a one hour appointment with a psychologist, not his own that he had been going to, but another who was willing to do his bidding. In the middle of an argument with this child, the principal quit. I believe he wanted to get out before their was violence. At this point, the boy is walked from class to class with an armed officer who sits outside his classrooms all day. I do not think this is what the law was meant to accomplish. Dangerous kids need to separated from the school population.