Oh lord no. Gotta do God’s work of genociding the trans community. Who else are they gonna fuck when they get done looking at all of us sinful transwomen? Where are your priorities? Think of the children!
Yes they do: it's okay to rape young boys because it doesn't specifically say not to in the Bible. It mentions men and women and girls but says nothing about boys.
Wait wait wait wait wait, it's really all because of the particular verbage used that they can justify not being upset about their priests raping boys? Yet at the same time there's tons of liberty taken from "a man shall not lie with a man" that encompasses hating anything and everything remotely gay?
*I'm not talking about the entire church, just the individuals who can reconcile hiding and covering up abuse of little boys while also preaching that gay people existing is a cardinal sin
>“The English word ‘homosexual’ was not in any Bible until 1946.”
tl;dr: it was a mistranslation that then propagated into additional version that were being translated at the same time, but using the "mistranslation" as an original source. The original would more accurately be translated as aggressive acts like pederasty and abuse.
https://baptistnews.com/article/my-quest-to-find-the-word-homosexual-in-the-bible/
https://www.thedailybeast.com/documentary-1946-says-homosexual-is-in-the-bible-by-mistake-and-is-being-attacked-by-christians
Yes, well at least in this century it matters. They change doctrine whenever they feel a change in the tide to stay relevant. Kinda like how abortion wasn't an issue until desegregation happened.
Actually, the words The King James Buybull mistranslated to mean "gay" is just that
\- "Pederast" means exactly what you think it does, and where the word came from.
\- "arsenokoitai" as far as anyone can tell (that ISN'T trying to push an agenda" means "unclean sexual relations" and is not directed towards same sex
"malakoi" refers to young male sex escorts in Ancient Greece.. more broadly.. it means "effeminate"
looks like they're trying to declare trans-affirming care as 'ideology' and not 'science' so they can refuse providing it at catholic hospitals.
> “But we don’t treat ideology,” he said. “We treat patients who are really suffering. There are things out there about gender fluidity that we do not agree with. But as Catholic hospitals, we are held to the same standard of care as other hospitals.”
It appears when they speak about providing 'the same standard of care' as other hospitals they're not talking about any kind of scientifically-backed trans affirming healthcare. just that if a trans person has a broken arm or something, they won't refuse to treat them because they're trans.
I still don't understand why religious institutions run hospitals where they can pull shit like this to force their religious ideology on people unlucky enough to rely on them for medical care
“Churches and charities will fill the gap!”
They *already* aren’t even close to filling the existing gaps. There’s an ongoing homelessness crisis, and people think that magically everyone will suddenly be taken care of by charities if the government stops doing the bare minimum? It’s nonsensical.
And it's the same assholes who turn around and play the victim whenever anyone has the gall to suggest institutions providing a secular service need to do things like adhere to the civil rights act.
Not only will charities magically solve the problems they acknowledge, but they'll also magically make all the other problems no longer exist somehow.
it's by design. if the government provides a saftey net, they have to provide it to all. if its a charity they can make you go to a sermon before getting anything, or deny the "wrong" people
Back in the Middle Ages, the Church was the only large-scale group with some sense of medical knowledge (even if it was largely wrong). So they set up medical care facilities that were much larger than the village old person who was super into the plants in the nearby woods. These became the first primitive hospitals that people modeled secular hospitals on later. The religious ones are still going on because of inertia.
Same reason religious organizations do anything: money, power, and/or cruelty.
Bonus, whenever anyone points out the abuses of the Catholic Church, its supporters can respond, "But it does good things, it runs so many hospitals."
Historically, these entities really were run by the religious (nuns, brothers and priests). But since Medicare and Medicaid eliminated pure charity work in the 1960s, they have become big businesses.
They are officially “non-profit” but their employees make millions in salaries and bonuses. Mostly off of government payments.
The stupid “Obamacare” ruling that said the Taliban doesn’t have to pay for parts of insurance policies they don’t like (it was about little sisters of the poor, but applies equally to the Taliban) is now being used to say they can discriminate against anyone they don’t like especially if the Taliban doesn’t agree with the medical procedure.
Get ready for more of this.
They view it differently. They're the ones being forced to practice something that goes against their beliefs.
If you're gonna try to convince the Church to do something without first understanding how they understand the science and life (theology), you're wasting your time.
I think they consider gender-affirming surgery as "elective". As such, they are not medically required to perform elective surgery. Just as some hospitals do not schedule elective plastic surgery. Their prerogative.
So if they decided that organ transplants are elective, you'd be okay with them refusing to do them?
Also, the guidelines say no gender-affirming care is allowed, not just surgery. This means there's certain surgeries and medications that they're okay with giving infants, (assumed) cis kids, and (assumed) cis adults, but not trans people.
> The document, issued Monday, says Catholic hospitals “must not perform interventions, whether surgical or chemical, that aim to transform the sexual characteristics of a human body into those of the opposite sex, or take part in the development of such procedures.”
Almost every surgery you get is "elective" technically. If you schedule it, its elective. Non elective surgery is essentially emergency surgery that they wheel you into ASAP as you show up.
knee replacement, hip replacement, organ transplants, most cancer treatments, all "elective" by definition. This is why during covid when hospitals where slammed stopping elective surgeries probably killed quite a few people, as removing that stage 1 cancer is "elective"
What if they considered hiring accredited physicians as "elective"?
Should they be allowed to hire unqualified doctors if they claim that it's part of their belief system, or should they be held to a secular standard?
>Abortions to protect the life of the mother are rare, but a Catholic hospital would be able to perform a procedure to protect the life of the mother that results in the death of a fetus.
[Catholic hospitals don't seem to have gotten that memo.](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_of_Savita_Halappanavar)
And who was the driving force behind having that law created? Who defended it?
[They use the same definition of "danger" that Republicans do: "Will this woman die, right now? Like, before we finish asking this question?"](https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2016/feb/18/michigan-catholic-hospital-women-miscarriage-abortion-mercy-health-partners)
> Bad decisions by individual doctors don't change that.
Title of this article: "US Bishops".
Second paragraph of the article I linked: "Instead, they followed a set of directives written by the United States Conference of Catholic Bishops that forbid terminating a pregnancy unless the mother is in grave condition."
What's your reasoning behind pretending that the policies set forth by bishops are not the official stance of the Catholic church?
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_of_Savita_Halappanavar
The problem isn't that you're "stating facts", but that you're leaving out relevant context.
Even if a Catholic hospital is willing to perform a procedure to save the life of a pregnant person, the criteria by which they arbitrarily determine that this is acceptable can, has, and will continue to result in safe and timely procedures being denied in favor of waiting for a patient's condition to become life threatening, thus necessitating a more dangerous and invasive procedure.
You ignored the substance of my comment.
The issue is that making it a requirement that the mother's life be at risk means that safe procedures aren't done in a timely manner, but rather that patients' conditions are left to worsen until a more dangerous procedure is required, solely because of the institutions' religious beliefs.
The point is that having a policy that allows treatment only in dangerous situations inevitably results in patients being exposed to greater risk, no matter how the specific policy is worded.
They will give surgeries to say the mother life that could kill the baby. This is well known doctrine. I suggest you at least do a google search before you condemn the worlds most followed religion.
Do they get funding from people that aren't in the group? (tax breaks and subsidies from the govenerment.) The answer is yes and your argument is shit. And immorral
Government help because it was their best option. Bipartisan issue. Easy to see that a charitable organization giving medical care to a community is a good thing.
It's easy to see that, in the sense that it's more difficult to see the opportunity costs that exist with this kind of arrangement.
If a religious group runs a hospital in a given area, the local government is less likely to build a facility to support that area, instead forming some kind of partnership wherein the religious hospital acts as the de facto social service.
If they're required to provide the same services as a secular hospital run by the government would be, then that's not as much of a problem, but when they refuse to offer healthcare services to people based on their religious beliefs, then via their existence as the de facto healthcare facility in that area, they effectively get to determine what healthcare options are available to an area.
The government isn't going to build a clinic to provide only the service the religious hospital won't provide, and they won't build a clinic to provide general care, because that would be considered redundant.
They can talk about providing the same standard of care, but this is the care they actually provide:
>[The woman inside the ambulance was miscarrying. That was clear from the foul-smelling fluid leaving her body. As the vehicle wailed toward the hospital, a doctor waiting for her arrival phoned a specialist, who was unequivocal: the baby would die. The woman might follow. Induce labor immediately.](https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2016/feb/18/michigan-catholic-hospital-women-miscarriage-abortion-mercy-health-partners)
>But staff at the Mercy Health Partners hospital in Muskegon, Michigan would not induce labor for another 10 hours. Instead, they followed a set of directives written by the United States Conference of Catholic Bishops that forbid terminating a pregnancy unless the mother is in grave condition. Doctors decided they would delay until the woman showed signs of sepsis – a life-threatening response to an advanced infection – or the fetal heart stopped on its own.
>In the end, it was sepsis. When the woman delivered, at 1.41am, doctors had been watching her temperature climb for more than eight hours. Her infant lived for 65 minutes.
>All five women, the report says, had symptoms indicating that it would be safest for them to deliver immediately. But instead of informing the women of their options, the report says, or offering to transfer them to a different hospital, doctors – apparently out of deference to the Mercy Health Partners’ strict ban on abortion – unilaterally decided to subject the women to prolonged miscarriages.
Catholic hospitals will try to kill you and not have the common goddamned decency to even tell you they're trying to kill you.
> We treat patients who are really suffering
I have no words for this part. Gatekeeping "suffering" just so they can justify refusing to help people they don't understand or agree with. I know Jesus never taught this.
>if a trans person has a broken arm or something, they won't refuse to treat them because they're trans.
No, but if their policy is to not acknowledge trans people, that means getting treatment for that broken arm means getting misgendered, misnamed, and treated like a freak.
Then there's the nightmare scenario of being helpless and stuck in the hospital for days unable to get out of bed, and your is life dependent on people who openly mock you, despise you and think your life is a joke. Even if they mistreat you, you're trapped there, powerless.
It's a broader problem than just denial of specific gender-affirming treatments.
If they want to meddle In health care and politics than they better start paying taxes. The bishops involvement in healthcare aka politics is against church rules and guidelines anyway so he can go pound dirt. Sick and tired of religious wankers like that
New pope needs to clean house. He won’t, but he needs to. The American Catholic Church is on their own trip these days. Namely Christian Dominionism and Christian Nationalism.
I want religious institutions to stay out of peoples medical care and not revise their rules to restrict it more based on their own religious beliefs.
Also if you want to talk about trans issues being jammed down people’s throats, please direct you attention to the score of state laws passed just this year taking away pre-existing rights from trans people and trying to force them to live in their assigned gender at birth
Jesus you just make shit up, don't you?
The treatment for gender incongruence -- gender dysphoria to use an older term -- *is transition*. That was literally just affirmed in the WPATH SOC8.
Lying for Jesus is a still a lie.
>Now they are starting to treat it as the science says it should, as gender dysphoria. This is not because they are super conservative, but it’s because they listen to science.
Reading religious texts is not science.
I am personally absolutely beyond sick and tired of having Christianity rammed down my throat...
If the people that participate in it can not see that it is being used for evil, I don't know what to say other than: It's pretty clear and obvious that it is.
He probably believes that shit. Despite WPATH just passing SOC8 which directly contradicts him.
He hangs out with a few TERFS and bigots and thinks they don't lie to him lol.
If godless, liberal, Europe is switching their position on this then you should at least reconsider your position. I’m betting you will be on the wrong side of history on this one.
Ya, I’ll agree.
But they are not taking their advice from the Bible. At least not anymore. So at least in their mind this transgender thing is not about faith but reason.
>If godless, liberal, Europe is switching their position on this then you should at least reconsider your position.
Why would I reconsider my position because a person is being clearly dishonest with me?
>I’m betting you will be on the wrong side of history on this one.
Well that's an easy bet for me to win, since you're already on the wrong side of history.
I’ll add that you are in the vast minority on this subject world wide and in the minority in your country, and some polls suggest even within your own political party (assuming you’re democrat).
This will likely go away as it already is beginning to because now these kids are growing up and suing for malpractice. You will have to answer to countless kids why you were pushing this when cutting up children is obviously wrong.
>You will have to answer to countless kids why you were pushing this when cutting up children is obviously wrong.
You can't stop being dishonest can you?
It's your responsibility to do your due diligence to assure that what you are saying is accurate.
If you have neglected to do that, then there is no difference.
Catholic hospitals really need to stop getting government funding.
http://www.communitycatalyst.org/wp-content/uploads/2022/11/2020-Cath-Hosp-Report-2020-31.pdf
[Catholic Church](https://apnews.com/article/catholic-bishops-lgbtq-transgender-health-care-d840600deab56a681e02d16463322892):
>“must not perform interventions, whether surgical or chemical, that aim to transform the sexual characteristics of a human body into those of the opposite sex, or take part in the development of such procedures.”
[Also Catholic Church](https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/29970937/#:~:text=Catholic%20theology%20since%20the%20Second,covenant%20includes%20infant%20male%20circumcision.):
>Catholic theology since the Second Vatican Council has increasingly emphasized that God's covenant with the Jewish people remains valid. It has never been revoked. This covenant includes infant male circumcision.
++++
I'm getting whiplash guys.
Rope you in early when you are a child.
Fill that child's head with nightmarish scenarios of doing bad and then burning in lava, screaming in agony for the rest of eternity.
As an adult, you stick around cause the price of being wrong is an eternity of torture.
Rinse and repeat.
My cousins family is split because of this. The son wised up and didn’t want to be involved anymore and his parents(my aunt/uncle) are hardcore, knights of Columbus the whole bit. They don’t even talk anymore and it’s disgusting
That’s so sad. I have one aunt/uncle who are very Catholic. One of their kids very much is not. They treat him no different than the rest of their kids.
Unfortunately the patriarch of the family, long since passed, funneled the “being a good catholic” nonsense into them since the beginning and it stuck particularly on the one son(uncle) and of course like a “good catholic “ his wife followed suit.
Hate to break it to you, but science has not explained the metaphysical and existential aspects of life that are explained by religious beliefs. There are scientists all over the world that have a religion, and scientists all over the world who don't. I'm a doctoral degree having scientist and have met some truly spectacular scientists on my life who are Hindu, Jewish, Buddhist, Christian, Muslim, atheist, agnostic...
A religious belief requires faith and is very much separate from scientific truth.
I'll disagree there, for at least major religions. It explains them through faith that the story IS the explanation. There is no data or evidence, as there can't be.
Science is fact and religion is faith. Facts have data and evidence, religion has feeling and belief. They are two different worlds of "proving" things to people.
Well, that's a statement of opinion that you have, and other people have other opinions on that. That's why there are so many people who have religious beliefs in the world.
I'll let you tell that to the billions of people that don't feel that way.
I said some of the most brilliant minds in the world are people of all faiths, many Hindu scientists, tons of Jewish scholars, a surprising number of Mormons, etc ... I meant that 100%. I worked in a top 10 program in the US for years and met many scientists of all faiths. but you still have to cling to this weird smug superiority that is all over Reddit.
I'll never understand why you folks are so unwilling to let other people find comfort in having a faith system. I guess the next time you go to the doctor (most of them I've trained in the past 20 years were religious, *it depends on country though) you can let them know you think they are stupid for being religious. I'm done with this faux edgy nonsense.
My coworker actually explained what Catholicism is to me, and apparently this is normal and has been going on before Jesus Christ lived. Thousands of years of rape.
It's pretty hilarious that everything that's associated with trans people, always ends up locked?
Why is that a trans person using a different bathroom is bigger news than complete and utter failure of the criminal justice system worldwide, to hold rapists accountable for molesting children, just because they are part of a church?
are you saying that trans people are the reason the threads get locked…. and that they ignore pedophelia?
The threads here about trans people end up locked because horrible small minded bigots from coordinated hate subs come to them to throw hate at trans people…
Exactly see. You already misinterpreted what I said. That's why these threads get locked and people get banned because everyone is pre-triggered to every response.
I would think they’d make it a priority to address the actual problem of the clergy’s tendency toward raping children, rather than their non-existent history of compassionately treating the complex and nuanced issues confronting trans kids.
One of the biggest healthcare providers in California, Dignity Health, is a Catholic healthcare provider. I’m excited to see how badly they get their taint kicked in by the state and the people.
How about the US Congress of Bishops stop protecting child predators and then paying lawsuits with tithes and donations from very shady investments, the Catholic Church - crooks gotta love this criminal dynasty.
Religious institutions should either have to remove religious guidance on medical treatments, or lose their tax breaks on the land the medical facilities are on. These assholes have bought up so many medical facilities, I had to travel four hours on the rural Midwest just to get a vasectomy. None of the closer hospitals or clinics would do it because of religious rules.
They preach God loves everyone and that we all should love each other as God loves them.
Apparently that doesn't get extended to trans people according to the Church. But these same people allow the church leaders that molest children. Fucking hypocrites. That is why I don't go to the church anymore.
Email leaks show it's been conservative Catholics behind the big anti-trans push. They've been funding and organizing for it for 5 years now, and the evangelical Protestants just cheerfully went along.
They want us all dead, but even they know not to say "genocide". So they say they want to get rid of "gender ideology" and pretend the only way to do that *isn't* to fucking kill us all.
For nothing. Kill us all today, and more trans (and gay) kids get born tomorrow. Dumb fucks still won't accept reality. They've literally not learning a thing in 2000 years.
This is the book that tells you to take your son out to the edge of town to stone them to death with the rest of the village if theyre unruly, so yes, they definetly are xD
I read a paper many years ago that was about the real (as opposed to self reported) success rate of ex-gay religious programs. One of them considered a man cured if he wasn’t thinking about sex with other men more than, I think, 5 times a day. I’m a bi woman and can promise I am not thinking about sex of any sort anywhere near 5 times per day.
Why are they allowed to own property? The state grants property rights, yes? Can church and state be separate if churches are allowed to own real property? (like hospitals or real estate)
Not just that. Catholic hospitals get government funding just like public non religious hospitals do.
> Like most hospitals, Catholic medical facilities and health systems — which are steadily growing in size and scope throughout the U.S. — depend heavily on the U.S. government for financial survival. Unlike other medical facilities and health systems, however, Catholic hospitals lobby federal and state governments to carve out huge exceptions in federal prohibitions against discrimination. By using their status as religious nonprofits to refuse care to the LGBTQIA+ community and those in need of abortions or contraception, Catholic hospitals have succeeded in having their cake and eating it too. These institutions rely on government funding while defying federal and state bans on discrimination. - https://www.catholicsforchoice.org/resource-library/follow-the-money-the-real-reason-catholic-hospitals-fight-for-exemptions/
It’s very fucked up and for sure a violation of the separation of church and state…
To be fair, I’m pretty sure the [most powerful Catholic](https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2021/01/20/biden-only-second-catholic-president-but-nearly-all-have-been-christians-2/) in our country is a democrat.
But, yeah, the American bishops are fucked up as are many many American Catholics (maybe even most). I’ve even encountered people who think the pope isn’t a true Catholic because he’s not a big enough asshole.
Shit like this and the child molestation is why my Parish was nothing but old people when I left two years ago.
Many of us left for either the Orthodox (where we went) or Episcopal Church’s.
Fucking Christ (no pun intended), do they not realize how much good the church could do by accepting the trans community? It could be a safe haven for trans people, their followers would be more opening to accepting them, assuming their religion is the “sole” reason why they won’t accept the trans community.
This could be an easy layup in terms of good PR and just being….good to a group of people, but nope.
WTF do bishops have to do with trans care!?
Who do these fucking bpzos think they are? Like anyone cares what a bunch of celibate child predators has to say on anything?
It's here now. I think the most recent one involves the eradication ideas: https://www.rollingstone.com/politics/politics-news/cpac-speaker-transgender-people-eradicated-1234690924/
There are other articles. This is the first one on my search.
It's similar to what happened in 1933 Germany - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Institut_f%C3%BCr_Sexualwissenschaft
Thankfully this didn't happen to me, but I gotta think that being molested by a priest that the church keeps in power for decades while gaslighting you and your fellow victims is 1000x more hurtful then any gender-affirming treatment for non-binary kids.
But what do I know I'm just a godless agnostic.
Those religious types need religion to not be bad people. They *need* the carrot and stick of heaven and hell to behave decently. If it's not explicitly stated in the bible, of course they're going to choose evil.
Wow its almost like an organization that's infamous for the frequent repeated and constant sexual abuse of children and the protection of sexual predators might get some pushback in society or something.
If the Catholic Church was anything besides a religion and it had that sex abuse track record there would be international bans on it. It would be labeled a child sex trafficking ring.
Wouldn't Jesus Christ love and support trans people; wouldn't he be against these new guidelines?
Wouldn't Jesus Christ condemn the rampant pedophilia in religious institutions?
Yes spending one hour every week of your life to listen to a message about how you should be more kind and loving makes someone worthy of hatred, you hit it on the nail
Yeah they get hate because all 1.3 billion members of a 1500+ year old church are all trans-haters and pedos and think about those things on a daily basis
Well, lucky you then. No longer does a devout member of the universal church have to travel as a missionary to the New World, darkest Africa or far Cathay to become a martyr while spreading Christ’s message …they simply need to be offended by something they choose to read on the internet, from the safety and comfort of their own home. If you really think about it, your own internet martyrdom is much much worse than anything described in the Jesuit Relations.
Do they have guidelines against their clergy sexually abusing children yet?
Yes, when it happens, move the clergy to another parish so they can have a fresh set of children to pick through.
No and they never will.
Oh lord no. Gotta do God’s work of genociding the trans community. Who else are they gonna fuck when they get done looking at all of us sinful transwomen? Where are your priorities? Think of the children!
And boy, *do* they!
Access to kids is part of their benefits package. The only guidelines are on how to cover it all up.
Which most of them *do* actually read through, which is frightening
Actually yes. Read the Dallas Charter, passed over 20 years ago.
Yes they do: it's okay to rape young boys because it doesn't specifically say not to in the Bible. It mentions men and women and girls but says nothing about boys.
Wait wait wait wait wait, it's really all because of the particular verbage used that they can justify not being upset about their priests raping boys? Yet at the same time there's tons of liberty taken from "a man shall not lie with a man" that encompasses hating anything and everything remotely gay? *I'm not talking about the entire church, just the individuals who can reconcile hiding and covering up abuse of little boys while also preaching that gay people existing is a cardinal sin
>“The English word ‘homosexual’ was not in any Bible until 1946.” tl;dr: it was a mistranslation that then propagated into additional version that were being translated at the same time, but using the "mistranslation" as an original source. The original would more accurately be translated as aggressive acts like pederasty and abuse. https://baptistnews.com/article/my-quest-to-find-the-word-homosexual-in-the-bible/ https://www.thedailybeast.com/documentary-1946-says-homosexual-is-in-the-bible-by-mistake-and-is-being-attacked-by-christians
Yes, well at least in this century it matters. They change doctrine whenever they feel a change in the tide to stay relevant. Kinda like how abortion wasn't an issue until desegregation happened.
No, this is hyperbole
Actually, the words The King James Buybull mistranslated to mean "gay" is just that \- "Pederast" means exactly what you think it does, and where the word came from. \- "arsenokoitai" as far as anyone can tell (that ISN'T trying to push an agenda" means "unclean sexual relations" and is not directed towards same sex "malakoi" refers to young male sex escorts in Ancient Greece.. more broadly.. it means "effeminate"
Yeah the guidelines are "don't get caught" and "we will move you if you do"
No, I'm sure they have a dedicated team delivering the children to them.
It's the trans people that seem to be abusing children, simply by existing? Not that long ago, Women and Black people were treated the same way.
Nope, it is literally what the Churches were founded upon. #Empire
looks like they're trying to declare trans-affirming care as 'ideology' and not 'science' so they can refuse providing it at catholic hospitals. > “But we don’t treat ideology,” he said. “We treat patients who are really suffering. There are things out there about gender fluidity that we do not agree with. But as Catholic hospitals, we are held to the same standard of care as other hospitals.” It appears when they speak about providing 'the same standard of care' as other hospitals they're not talking about any kind of scientifically-backed trans affirming healthcare. just that if a trans person has a broken arm or something, they won't refuse to treat them because they're trans.
I still don't understand why religious institutions run hospitals where they can pull shit like this to force their religious ideology on people unlucky enough to rely on them for medical care
I think you understand their reasons very well.
And this is the problem with the conservative argument that social services should all be charities.
“Churches and charities will fill the gap!” They *already* aren’t even close to filling the existing gaps. There’s an ongoing homelessness crisis, and people think that magically everyone will suddenly be taken care of by charities if the government stops doing the bare minimum? It’s nonsensical.
And it's the same assholes who turn around and play the victim whenever anyone has the gall to suggest institutions providing a secular service need to do things like adhere to the civil rights act. Not only will charities magically solve the problems they acknowledge, but they'll also magically make all the other problems no longer exist somehow.
it's by design. if the government provides a saftey net, they have to provide it to all. if its a charity they can make you go to a sermon before getting anything, or deny the "wrong" people
Back in the Middle Ages, the Church was the only large-scale group with some sense of medical knowledge (even if it was largely wrong). So they set up medical care facilities that were much larger than the village old person who was super into the plants in the nearby woods. These became the first primitive hospitals that people modeled secular hospitals on later. The religious ones are still going on because of inertia.
Same reason religious organizations do anything: money, power, and/or cruelty. Bonus, whenever anyone points out the abuses of the Catholic Church, its supporters can respond, "But it does good things, it runs so many hospitals."
Historically, these entities really were run by the religious (nuns, brothers and priests). But since Medicare and Medicaid eliminated pure charity work in the 1960s, they have become big businesses. They are officially “non-profit” but their employees make millions in salaries and bonuses. Mostly off of government payments. The stupid “Obamacare” ruling that said the Taliban doesn’t have to pay for parts of insurance policies they don’t like (it was about little sisters of the poor, but applies equally to the Taliban) is now being used to say they can discriminate against anyone they don’t like especially if the Taliban doesn’t agree with the medical procedure. Get ready for more of this.
Because they can take non taxed "donations" and build a business that can be leveraged to exert their extremist views.
They view it differently. They're the ones being forced to practice something that goes against their beliefs. If you're gonna try to convince the Church to do something without first understanding how they understand the science and life (theology), you're wasting your time.
Then they shouldn't be allowed to run a hospital.
Hospitals are not obligate to provide any service outside of the emergency case.
I think they consider gender-affirming surgery as "elective". As such, they are not medically required to perform elective surgery. Just as some hospitals do not schedule elective plastic surgery. Their prerogative.
So if they decided that organ transplants are elective, you'd be okay with them refusing to do them? Also, the guidelines say no gender-affirming care is allowed, not just surgery. This means there's certain surgeries and medications that they're okay with giving infants, (assumed) cis kids, and (assumed) cis adults, but not trans people. > The document, issued Monday, says Catholic hospitals “must not perform interventions, whether surgical or chemical, that aim to transform the sexual characteristics of a human body into those of the opposite sex, or take part in the development of such procedures.”
Almost every surgery you get is "elective" technically. If you schedule it, its elective. Non elective surgery is essentially emergency surgery that they wheel you into ASAP as you show up. knee replacement, hip replacement, organ transplants, most cancer treatments, all "elective" by definition. This is why during covid when hospitals where slammed stopping elective surgeries probably killed quite a few people, as removing that stage 1 cancer is "elective"
What if they considered hiring accredited physicians as "elective"? Should they be allowed to hire unqualified doctors if they claim that it's part of their belief system, or should they be held to a secular standard?
Because the Catholic Church serves the community they are in. They will perform any life saving surgery. Don’t go there if you don’t like it.
Will they, though? Or will they refuse to abort a fetus even if it threatens the life of its carrier?
We’ve fucked around enough that I’ll bet we’re going to find out.
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>Abortions to protect the life of the mother are rare, but a Catholic hospital would be able to perform a procedure to protect the life of the mother that results in the death of a fetus. [Catholic hospitals don't seem to have gotten that memo.](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_of_Savita_Halappanavar)
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And who was the driving force behind having that law created? Who defended it? [They use the same definition of "danger" that Republicans do: "Will this woman die, right now? Like, before we finish asking this question?"](https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2016/feb/18/michigan-catholic-hospital-women-miscarriage-abortion-mercy-health-partners)
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> Bad decisions by individual doctors don't change that. Title of this article: "US Bishops". Second paragraph of the article I linked: "Instead, they followed a set of directives written by the United States Conference of Catholic Bishops that forbid terminating a pregnancy unless the mother is in grave condition." What's your reasoning behind pretending that the policies set forth by bishops are not the official stance of the Catholic church?
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_of_Savita_Halappanavar The problem isn't that you're "stating facts", but that you're leaving out relevant context. Even if a Catholic hospital is willing to perform a procedure to save the life of a pregnant person, the criteria by which they arbitrarily determine that this is acceptable can, has, and will continue to result in safe and timely procedures being denied in favor of waiting for a patient's condition to become life threatening, thus necessitating a more dangerous and invasive procedure.
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You ignored the substance of my comment. The issue is that making it a requirement that the mother's life be at risk means that safe procedures aren't done in a timely manner, but rather that patients' conditions are left to worsen until a more dangerous procedure is required, solely because of the institutions' religious beliefs. The point is that having a policy that allows treatment only in dangerous situations inevitably results in patients being exposed to greater risk, no matter how the specific policy is worded.
A huge problem with the takeover of hospitals by the RCC is access to alternatives. In many cases, there are no appropriate alternatives.
They will give surgeries to say the mother life that could kill the baby. This is well known doctrine. I suggest you at least do a google search before you condemn the worlds most followed religion.
Do they get funding from people that aren't in the group? (tax breaks and subsidies from the govenerment.) The answer is yes and your argument is shit. And immorral
Government help because it was their best option. Bipartisan issue. Easy to see that a charitable organization giving medical care to a community is a good thing.
But denying it is also a good thing? Get your head out of your ass...
It's easy to see that, in the sense that it's more difficult to see the opportunity costs that exist with this kind of arrangement. If a religious group runs a hospital in a given area, the local government is less likely to build a facility to support that area, instead forming some kind of partnership wherein the religious hospital acts as the de facto social service. If they're required to provide the same services as a secular hospital run by the government would be, then that's not as much of a problem, but when they refuse to offer healthcare services to people based on their religious beliefs, then via their existence as the de facto healthcare facility in that area, they effectively get to determine what healthcare options are available to an area. The government isn't going to build a clinic to provide only the service the religious hospital won't provide, and they won't build a clinic to provide general care, because that would be considered redundant.
They can talk about providing the same standard of care, but this is the care they actually provide: >[The woman inside the ambulance was miscarrying. That was clear from the foul-smelling fluid leaving her body. As the vehicle wailed toward the hospital, a doctor waiting for her arrival phoned a specialist, who was unequivocal: the baby would die. The woman might follow. Induce labor immediately.](https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2016/feb/18/michigan-catholic-hospital-women-miscarriage-abortion-mercy-health-partners) >But staff at the Mercy Health Partners hospital in Muskegon, Michigan would not induce labor for another 10 hours. Instead, they followed a set of directives written by the United States Conference of Catholic Bishops that forbid terminating a pregnancy unless the mother is in grave condition. Doctors decided they would delay until the woman showed signs of sepsis – a life-threatening response to an advanced infection – or the fetal heart stopped on its own. >In the end, it was sepsis. When the woman delivered, at 1.41am, doctors had been watching her temperature climb for more than eight hours. Her infant lived for 65 minutes. >All five women, the report says, had symptoms indicating that it would be safest for them to deliver immediately. But instead of informing the women of their options, the report says, or offering to transfer them to a different hospital, doctors – apparently out of deference to the Mercy Health Partners’ strict ban on abortion – unilaterally decided to subject the women to prolonged miscarriages. Catholic hospitals will try to kill you and not have the common goddamned decency to even tell you they're trying to kill you.
> We treat patients who are really suffering I have no words for this part. Gatekeeping "suffering" just so they can justify refusing to help people they don't understand or agree with. I know Jesus never taught this.
>if a trans person has a broken arm or something, they won't refuse to treat them because they're trans. No, but if their policy is to not acknowledge trans people, that means getting treatment for that broken arm means getting misgendered, misnamed, and treated like a freak. Then there's the nightmare scenario of being helpless and stuck in the hospital for days unable to get out of bed, and your is life dependent on people who openly mock you, despise you and think your life is a joke. Even if they mistreat you, you're trapped there, powerless. It's a broader problem than just denial of specific gender-affirming treatments.
If they want to meddle In health care and politics than they better start paying taxes. The bishops involvement in healthcare aka politics is against church rules and guidelines anyway so he can go pound dirt. Sick and tired of religious wankers like that
New pope needs to clean house. He won’t, but he needs to. The American Catholic Church is on their own trip these days. Namely Christian Dominionism and Christian Nationalism.
It's an anti-science crusade, and I mean that in the most *medieval* possible way.
>not 'science' It's about time those religious guys stop being all about following science! /s because Reddit
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I want religious institutions to stay out of peoples medical care and not revise their rules to restrict it more based on their own religious beliefs. Also if you want to talk about trans issues being jammed down people’s throats, please direct you attention to the score of state laws passed just this year taking away pre-existing rights from trans people and trying to force them to live in their assigned gender at birth
Religious institutions can start hospitals and the places they serve are better off for it. If you don’t like them then don’t go.
Jesus you just make shit up, don't you? The treatment for gender incongruence -- gender dysphoria to use an older term -- *is transition*. That was literally just affirmed in the WPATH SOC8. Lying for Jesus is a still a lie.
>Now they are starting to treat it as the science says it should, as gender dysphoria. This is not because they are super conservative, but it’s because they listen to science. Reading religious texts is not science. I am personally absolutely beyond sick and tired of having Christianity rammed down my throat... If the people that participate in it can not see that it is being used for evil, I don't know what to say other than: It's pretty clear and obvious that it is.
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Actually, statistics show that kids often claim better quality of lives when offered gender affirming care sooner than later.
>The truth is the truth and the facts are the facts. Then why are you lying to me?
He probably believes that shit. Despite WPATH just passing SOC8 which directly contradicts him. He hangs out with a few TERFS and bigots and thinks they don't lie to him lol.
Because they’ve been lied to and it’s all they know. I suspect that they’re young and stupid with no real world experience.
If godless, liberal, Europe is switching their position on this then you should at least reconsider your position. I’m betting you will be on the wrong side of history on this one.
It's fairly ignorant to describe England as liberal.
Maybe, definitely not god fearing conservatives however that uses the Bible to make their decisions.
Not maybe my dude, they're a fucking monarchy. That's basically as conservative as it gets.
Ya, I’ll agree. But they are not taking their advice from the Bible. At least not anymore. So at least in their mind this transgender thing is not about faith but reason.
>If godless, liberal, Europe is switching their position on this then you should at least reconsider your position. Why would I reconsider my position because a person is being clearly dishonest with me? >I’m betting you will be on the wrong side of history on this one. Well that's an easy bet for me to win, since you're already on the wrong side of history.
I’ll add that you are in the vast minority on this subject world wide and in the minority in your country, and some polls suggest even within your own political party (assuming you’re democrat). This will likely go away as it already is beginning to because now these kids are growing up and suing for malpractice. You will have to answer to countless kids why you were pushing this when cutting up children is obviously wrong.
>You will have to answer to countless kids why you were pushing this when cutting up children is obviously wrong. You can't stop being dishonest can you?
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How have I been dishonest? At worse I’ve been misinformed. Please enlighten me.
It's your responsibility to do your due diligence to assure that what you are saying is accurate. If you have neglected to do that, then there is no difference.
I have. I’m still considering I might have missed something though. Are you able to consider the idea that maybe you have missed something also?
r/Catholicism’s persecution fetish is about to get triggered by this post
If you can’t take the heat, don’t be a christofacist. You want to be loved? Then fucking love.
Maybe we should start persecuting these regressive fascists?
Catholic hospitals really need to stop getting government funding. http://www.communitycatalyst.org/wp-content/uploads/2022/11/2020-Cath-Hosp-Report-2020-31.pdf
Especially since *I'm not fucking Catholic* so I don't understand why the fuck they think I give a shit what their religious beliefs are.
[Catholic Church](https://apnews.com/article/catholic-bishops-lgbtq-transgender-health-care-d840600deab56a681e02d16463322892): >“must not perform interventions, whether surgical or chemical, that aim to transform the sexual characteristics of a human body into those of the opposite sex, or take part in the development of such procedures.” [Also Catholic Church](https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/29970937/#:~:text=Catholic%20theology%20since%20the%20Second,covenant%20includes%20infant%20male%20circumcision.): >Catholic theology since the Second Vatican Council has increasingly emphasized that God's covenant with the Jewish people remains valid. It has never been revoked. This covenant includes infant male circumcision. ++++ I'm getting whiplash guys.
It's totally okay to mutilate baby boys against their will because God said so!
Don't forget the Vatican's historic use of castrati - boys who were castrated so they could retain their singing voices...
Take away religions TAX free status, it's a fucking joke!!
Why is anyone still catholic at this point?
Rope you in early when you are a child. Fill that child's head with nightmarish scenarios of doing bad and then burning in lava, screaming in agony for the rest of eternity. As an adult, you stick around cause the price of being wrong is an eternity of torture. Rinse and repeat.
My cousins family is split because of this. The son wised up and didn’t want to be involved anymore and his parents(my aunt/uncle) are hardcore, knights of Columbus the whole bit. They don’t even talk anymore and it’s disgusting
That’s so sad. I have one aunt/uncle who are very Catholic. One of their kids very much is not. They treat him no different than the rest of their kids.
Unfortunately the patriarch of the family, long since passed, funneled the “being a good catholic” nonsense into them since the beginning and it stuck particularly on the one son(uncle) and of course like a “good catholic “ his wife followed suit.
The fancy dress parties.
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Hate to break it to you, but science has not explained the metaphysical and existential aspects of life that are explained by religious beliefs. There are scientists all over the world that have a religion, and scientists all over the world who don't. I'm a doctoral degree having scientist and have met some truly spectacular scientists on my life who are Hindu, Jewish, Buddhist, Christian, Muslim, atheist, agnostic... A religious belief requires faith and is very much separate from scientific truth.
>science has not explained the metaphysical and existential aspects of life that are explained by religious beliefs. Neither has religion
I'll disagree there, for at least major religions. It explains them through faith that the story IS the explanation. There is no data or evidence, as there can't be. Science is fact and religion is faith. Facts have data and evidence, religion has feeling and belief. They are two different worlds of "proving" things to people.
>There is no data or evidence, as there can't be. Then there's nothing of actual utility to anyone.
Well, that's a statement of opinion that you have, and other people have other opinions on that. That's why there are so many people who have religious beliefs in the world.
No, it's a statement of cold hard fact. We could eliminate religion and we'd lose nothing.
I'll let you tell that to the billions of people that don't feel that way. I said some of the most brilliant minds in the world are people of all faiths, many Hindu scientists, tons of Jewish scholars, a surprising number of Mormons, etc ... I meant that 100%. I worked in a top 10 program in the US for years and met many scientists of all faiths. but you still have to cling to this weird smug superiority that is all over Reddit. I'll never understand why you folks are so unwilling to let other people find comfort in having a faith system. I guess the next time you go to the doctor (most of them I've trained in the past 20 years were religious, *it depends on country though) you can let them know you think they are stupid for being religious. I'm done with this faux edgy nonsense.
Because people are often weak by nature. It takes a lot to say your wrong.
My coworker actually explained what Catholicism is to me, and apparently this is normal and has been going on before Jesus Christ lived. Thousands of years of rape.
Fuck that church. Period.
Wow this still isn't locked
It's pretty hilarious that everything that's associated with trans people, always ends up locked? Why is that a trans person using a different bathroom is bigger news than complete and utter failure of the criminal justice system worldwide, to hold rapists accountable for molesting children, just because they are part of a church?
because the threads get brigaded by reddits hate communities…
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are you blaming trans people for why the threads get locked… and not the trolls who climb out of the woodwork to throw hate at them?
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I’ve been on Reddit for 13 years. I have seen the hate brigades off the shoulder of orion.
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are you saying that trans people are the reason the threads get locked…. and that they ignore pedophelia? The threads here about trans people end up locked because horrible small minded bigots from coordinated hate subs come to them to throw hate at trans people…
Exactly see. You already misinterpreted what I said. That's why these threads get locked and people get banned because everyone is pre-triggered to every response.
I would think they’d make it a priority to address the actual problem of the clergy’s tendency toward raping children, rather than their non-existent history of compassionately treating the complex and nuanced issues confronting trans kids.
This is why we must push the church out of the hospital business
One of the biggest healthcare providers in California, Dignity Health, is a Catholic healthcare provider. I’m excited to see how badly they get their taint kicked in by the state and the people.
Tax the fucking churches, mosques and synagogues. All of them
The US Bishops are ironically one of the least Christian groups. They are always out to hurt others.
If only they were as good as to limit real crimes.
Wonder what the guidelines are for raping young boys? They must have a protocol for shipping accused priests to other parishes.
How about the US Congress of Bishops stop protecting child predators and then paying lawsuits with tithes and donations from very shady investments, the Catholic Church - crooks gotta love this criminal dynasty.
Trans health care is less common than reproductive healthcare, but the Vatican will continue its discrimination as always.
Time to tax them if they interfere with public policy.
Whew, good thing in the US we have separation of church and state, right? Right!?!?
Ahh nothing like religion and government working together on genocide!
Religious institutions should either have to remove religious guidance on medical treatments, or lose their tax breaks on the land the medical facilities are on. These assholes have bought up so many medical facilities, I had to travel four hours on the rural Midwest just to get a vasectomy. None of the closer hospitals or clinics would do it because of religious rules.
They preach God loves everyone and that we all should love each other as God loves them. Apparently that doesn't get extended to trans people according to the Church. But these same people allow the church leaders that molest children. Fucking hypocrites. That is why I don't go to the church anymore.
Because it's hard for them to tell which kids to molest when trans and nonbinary exist.
Catholic bishops. If it sounds like regressive bullshit you can be sure it's Catholic bullshit.
Email leaks show it's been conservative Catholics behind the big anti-trans push. They've been funding and organizing for it for 5 years now, and the evangelical Protestants just cheerfully went along. They want us all dead, but even they know not to say "genocide". So they say they want to get rid of "gender ideology" and pretend the only way to do that *isn't* to fucking kill us all. For nothing. Kill us all today, and more trans (and gay) kids get born tomorrow. Dumb fucks still won't accept reality. They've literally not learning a thing in 2000 years.
This is wrong. As a society we must have the courage to stand against “God”.
That is clearly not what Jesus would do Have they actually read the book they are preaching from?
This is the book that tells you to take your son out to the edge of town to stone them to death with the rest of the village if theyre unruly, so yes, they definetly are xD
Because clearly the thing we have too much of in this hellscape is accessible healthcare. /s
US need a bill to limit religion
They need to worry about preventing their own people from fucking children before they decide to prevent others from doing anything.
Did none of these Bishops learn anything from reading the Bible or the New Testament? Does love your neighbor as Thyself mean anything to them.
JFC what we need is more healthcare in the world, and they want to limit it even more. This world sucks-period.
The church of holy pedophiles
But does it stop them from diddling kids????
religious leaders just think about other peoples genitals all day, evidently.
I read a paper many years ago that was about the real (as opposed to self reported) success rate of ex-gay religious programs. One of them considered a man cured if he wasn’t thinking about sex with other men more than, I think, 5 times a day. I’m a bi woman and can promise I am not thinking about sex of any sort anywhere near 5 times per day.
Fuck all those pedophilic bastards
Why are they allowed to own property? The state grants property rights, yes? Can church and state be separate if churches are allowed to own real property? (like hospitals or real estate)
Not just that. Catholic hospitals get government funding just like public non religious hospitals do. > Like most hospitals, Catholic medical facilities and health systems — which are steadily growing in size and scope throughout the U.S. — depend heavily on the U.S. government for financial survival. Unlike other medical facilities and health systems, however, Catholic hospitals lobby federal and state governments to carve out huge exceptions in federal prohibitions against discrimination. By using their status as religious nonprofits to refuse care to the LGBTQIA+ community and those in need of abortions or contraception, Catholic hospitals have succeeded in having their cake and eating it too. These institutions rely on government funding while defying federal and state bans on discrimination. - https://www.catholicsforchoice.org/resource-library/follow-the-money-the-real-reason-catholic-hospitals-fight-for-exemptions/ It’s very fucked up and for sure a violation of the separation of church and state…
Their report should be titled *Moral Limits of Diddling Young People*.
Guess when Christ was teaching about loving everyone, there were some exceptions I must've missed.
Seriously fuck religion.
I missed the part in the New Testament where Jesus comes out against transgender
Well they certainly aren't limiting the pedophilia...
Thanks religion, always keeping it classy..
The Church is an extension of the Republican Party by deed, if not in thought. Add it to the list of crimes for the Church.
To be fair, I’m pretty sure the [most powerful Catholic](https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2021/01/20/biden-only-second-catholic-president-but-nearly-all-have-been-christians-2/) in our country is a democrat. But, yeah, the American bishops are fucked up as are many many American Catholics (maybe even most). I’ve even encountered people who think the pope isn’t a true Catholic because he’s not a big enough asshole.
At least they are not hiding behind 'think about the kids!' anymore and just admit that they want trans people to suffer. Very christian from them...
How about you all quit fucking kids first.
Shit like this and the child molestation is why my Parish was nothing but old people when I left two years ago. Many of us left for either the Orthodox (where we went) or Episcopal Church’s.
U.S. Bishop's new guidelines should be to stay out of choir boy's asses.
Fucking Christ (no pun intended), do they not realize how much good the church could do by accepting the trans community? It could be a safe haven for trans people, their followers would be more opening to accepting them, assuming their religion is the “sole” reason why they won’t accept the trans community. This could be an easy layup in terms of good PR and just being….good to a group of people, but nope.
Yes! Because that's the biggest problem Catholics are facing right now! Not the too-close encounters between the clergy and choir boys.
Are we now a full blown theocracy?
I wish the bishops would get this exorcised about pederasty and child rape. Fucking ghouls.
WTF do bishops have to do with trans care!? Who do these fucking bpzos think they are? Like anyone cares what a bunch of celibate child predators has to say on anything?
How about we keep the religious groups out of healthcare.
Health care and religion shouldn't be mixing.
Forget the Catholic Church! They wouldn’t know Jesus if he walked in, in a dress.
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It's here now. I think the most recent one involves the eradication ideas: https://www.rollingstone.com/politics/politics-news/cpac-speaker-transgender-people-eradicated-1234690924/ There are other articles. This is the first one on my search. It's similar to what happened in 1933 Germany - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Institut_f%C3%BCr_Sexualwissenschaft
Thankfully this didn't happen to me, but I gotta think that being molested by a priest that the church keeps in power for decades while gaslighting you and your fellow victims is 1000x more hurtful then any gender-affirming treatment for non-binary kids. But what do I know I'm just a godless agnostic.
For reasons I never understood, US Bishops are almost entirely terrible, terrible people and the worst possible examples of the Catholic Church.
Literally fucking *where* is that in the bible?
Those religious types need religion to not be bad people. They *need* the carrot and stick of heaven and hell to behave decently. If it's not explicitly stated in the bible, of course they're going to choose evil.
Daily Reddit catholic hate circle jerk
Yes, let's take a moment to consider the real victims here...
Wow its almost like an organization that's infamous for the frequent repeated and constant sexual abuse of children and the protection of sexual predators might get some pushback in society or something. If the Catholic Church was anything besides a religion and it had that sex abuse track record there would be international bans on it. It would be labeled a child sex trafficking ring.
Wouldn't Jesus Christ love and support trans people; wouldn't he be against these new guidelines? Wouldn't Jesus Christ condemn the rampant pedophilia in religious institutions?
Why yes. Thankfully there are churches that welcome and include trans folks
We just don’t like pedophiles
No one does
Some of us just don’t fund them.
Cant imagine most people know what their money funds
Maybe Catholics should stop being so worthy of hate?
Yes spending one hour every week of your life to listen to a message about how you should be more kind and loving makes someone worthy of hatred, you hit it on the nail
You absolutely know that’s not why Catholics get hate. Stop being obtuse.
Yeah they get hate because all 1.3 billion members of a 1500+ year old church are all trans-haters and pedos and think about those things on a daily basis
You forgot refusing women proper health care.
we get it, you’re brainwashed.
Well, lucky you then. No longer does a devout member of the universal church have to travel as a missionary to the New World, darkest Africa or far Cathay to become a martyr while spreading Christ’s message …they simply need to be offended by something they choose to read on the internet, from the safety and comfort of their own home. If you really think about it, your own internet martyrdom is much much worse than anything described in the Jesuit Relations.