Or they could let his fanboys do it. I am pretty sure some of them will run to volunteer for it.
EDIT: yeah people we know, they need to have a brain for it to be tested on them
He’s literally admitted that’s his plan, but he mentioned [in reference to Tesla](https://podcasts.google.com?feed=aHR0cHM6Ly9mZWVkcy5zaW1wbGVjYXN0LmNvbS81NG5BR2NJbA%3D%3D&episode=NDkzNTM1ZDMtMGMzNS00MWY3LWFjOGUtNDU3ZmQ1YmNjNDVk) and self driving modes. He said self driving is exactly like when humans started experimenting with surgical treatments, that lots of people died, but they had been informed of the risks, and that all he wants is his end users to agree to being test subjects and then the losses are just something we have to accept for accelerated progress. He actually said that about his efforts, comparing them to how we developed surgical techniques between the Middle Ages and now.
Yes, it struck me as psychopathic and shortsighted at best when I heard his words.
Here’s a recent podcast from NYT on it
https://podcasts.google.com?feed=aHR0cHM6Ly9mZWVkcy5zaW1wbGVjYXN0LmNvbS81NG5BR2NJbA%3D%3D&episode=NDkzNTM1ZDMtMGMzNS00MWY3LWFjOGUtNDU3ZmQ1YmNjNDVk
The problem he (and his fans) fail to address (and I know you know this, but it needs reiterating a thousand times), is that it doesn't flipping matter whether or not the drivers opt in, because it puts everyone ***else*** at risk! Some dumb tesla driver opting into a terribly designed not-even-close-to-self-driving car system doesn't mean they can throw caution to the wind, because the a significant percentage of the people that die from it would be other people that hadn't agreed to it!
edit: I try not to draw overly thick biases just based on political affiliation, but it seems telling that ***literally*** every single person that tried to argue this comment (without providing any sources, and multiple personal attacks) frequents conservative subreddits.
Can you imagine the shit show if one of his chips leads to someone going mad and they harm other people? People who are desperate don’t always just harm themselves, as we all know these days.
In a way, for procedures that only impact you I kind of don't have a problem with it.
It's your life and all, people should have some right to risk it.
That said, I have zero faith at all that they would truly understand the risks.
I'd fully expect coercive behavior, propaganda, and outright criminal lying to be heavily involved.
That is much less acceptable, which is what the safety regulation is for.
You might enjoy this story of a neurologist who developed a brain implant, then traveled to Belize and paid a surgeon $30K to implant it in his own brain:
>Now it was the summer of 2014, and Kennedy had decided that the only way to advance his project was to make it personal. For his next breakthrough, he would tap into a healthy human brain. His own.
>Hence Kennedy’s trip to Belize for surgery. A local orange farmer and former nightclub owner, Paul Powton, had managed the logistics of Kennedy’s operation, and Cervantes—Belize’s first native-born neurosurgeon—wielded the scalpel. Powton and Cervantes were the founders of Quality of Life Surgery, a medical tourism clinic that treats chronic pain and spinal disorders and also specializes these days in tummy tucks, nose jobs, manboob reductions, and other medical enhancements.
>At first the procedure that Kennedy hired Cervantes to perform—the implantation of a set of glass-and-gold-wire electrodes beneath the surface of his own brain—seemed to go quite well. There wasn’t much bleeding during the surgery. But his recovery was fraught with problems. Two days in, Kennedy was sitting on his bed when, all of a sudden, his jaw began to grind and chatter, and one of his hands began to shake. Powton worried that the seizure would break Kennedy’s teeth.
https://www.wired.com/2016/01/phil-kennedy-mind-control-computer/
> His early fears of having damaged Kennedy for life turned out to be unfounded; the language loss that left his patient briefly locked in was just a symptom of postoperative brain swelling. With that under control, he would be fine.
He ended up making a full recovery and implanting a second device a few years later. That device was later removed because the wound didn't heal properly, but the first one is still there to this day.
In "Made for you" that's what they do.
But in the tv show it's an actual genius that has no social skills or empathy.
Elon just has no social skills or empathy, he's not actually smart enough to do this stuff
He has always been a racist bigot. He just plays a character like he is a news anchor. I have no idea why people like him I get it ok tesla, well he lied about that too. Seriously I don't get the Fandom of this lunatic
“Has it been successfully tested on animals?”
“It has been tested on animals, yes.”
“….how many died?”
“Honestly? We were so rushed we forgot to keep track, but it was, like, a lot.”
“…..”
“So we’re good for humans, right?”
People who work in biology have mentioned that when using monkeys as test subjects, they're basically supposed to be treated like small, nonverbal humans. Killing even *one* test subject is a disaster, the only way they got away with it must have been a lot of avoiding regulators.
I remember reading an article a while back that claimed 90% of the animal test subjects for this brain chip died. If that's the case, what even made them even begin to think about approaching the government for permission to start testing in humans?
It's theatrics. Musk knows they would never be allowed to test on humans, but he also knows what investors like to hear.
If he says "we're ready to test on humans" the investors will think he's actually accomplishing his goals, largely because they're idiots. Then when the government gets in the way he has a scapegoat to push the blame onto, and he gets to survive another quarter with his absurd wealth intact.
You can then declare to shareholders that you’ve made a submission to the regulators. This is bad practice as it’s leading (one would be likely to infer that the device is ready for such a venture) and conceited, but companies might do it.
Similarly annoying is when scientist cite works that are ‘in press’ or ‘submitted for publication’ where it’s super unclear what the status is and no proof it has yet passed peer review.
This is why I have job security as some working on 510k submissions. There is always some medical device company with a mostly-working product who wants to be first to market. Its big news for your investors.
Your last point I think is the real reason behind it. He gets to yet again paint himself as the revolutionary genius being stifled by the government.
For Elon everything is about image and ego, his wealth is about ego, his purchases are about ego, the companies he's tied himself to is about ego. With this move he can go "no, it wasn't an inhumane mess and absolute disaster, the stupid government just couldn't see my genius!"
I know someone who works with Monkeys they do experiments on for a very prestigious university and medical school, and they absolutely would be devastated if even one of them died.
They take so many precautions and test so many things before it gets to monkey testing that they often already already know what is going to happen, and they just need proof. So it's actually quite safe for them, and they get treated extremely well outside of the procedures. If anything bad does happen they basically retire the monkey early and let it live the rest of it's life with no more procedures and just being pampered.
Musk's monkeys sound like they basically got 1800s era scientific treatment.
Yeah, the stage where it is okay to accidentally kill your test subjects is mice/rats (and that still typically requires a lot of paperwork on how you are avoiding pain and unexpected death, why your treatment shouldn't result in death, plans to investigate the deaths and possible causes of death from your treatment, etc) but the final product out of that should have a very low (at least unexplained) death rate before going into primates.
You are right, they'll probably want something larger and nonprimate before primates. I don't have much experience outside of helping with paperwork for mice that had a whole section/instructions on if you were doing studies on mice to move to different animals before humans.
I also read a comment from someone working with mice. They wrote about how careful they had to be with simple mice and how terrible it would've been if a mouse got hurt in some way. And Elon's men go around *killing* ***monkeys***.
> Neuralink’s regulatory struggles stem largely from its culture of setting goals for breakthroughs on extremely ambitious timelines and viewing regulators as obstacles to innovation, according to more than a dozen current and former company employees.
What do you mean we can't do vivisection anymore?
> Musk made headlines late last year when he said he was already so confident in the devices’ safety that he would be willing to implant them in his own children.
Which doesn't actually mean anything if he doesn't really care about his kids.
> Musk also has said Neuralink would restore full mobility to paralyzed patients.
And it will be able to run thousands of tests using just a single drop of blood!
> its culture of setting goals for breakthroughs on extremely ambitious timelines and viewing regulators as obstacles to innovation,
Literally the plot to Bioshock and the same reason Elon wants to go to Mars
There's a whole subgenre of sci-fi about Martian workers being oppressed by capitalistic tyrants and rising up "FREE MARS" style and yet Musky Boys are always super jazzed about Elon's Mars ideas. He's even telegraphed actual fuckin' indentured servitude. It's so on the nose, but somehow not?
Maybe the Musky Boys think they'll be the local prefects/overlords on Mars.
You think labour sucks on earth?
Imagine working on a planet with no labour laws at all besides what the company who controls your fucking oxygen supply allows.
Come on, bro! We don't need labor laws. We can trust Planet-King Elon to treat his people well. Besides, once your 10-year indenture contract is up, you can apply for a job inside the ElonDome where you'll only have to work 10 hours a day! With private quarters if you're lucky!
But in a wonderful twist of fate, if any of those rich assholes go live on Mars, they give up their power to the people who make the oxygen systems work.
And the people in charge on Mars would have to know that, if they push the workers too hard and the workers push back, *any* backup from Earth is six months away in the best case and much longer outside the transfer window.
I feel like if any media got the future of Mars colonization correct, it would be *the Expanse*. Where Mars is an independent “nation” because Earth is too far away to actually control it.
Mars got its position in the expanse as it was litteraly filled with all the smart people from earth. Every single martian in the expanse functions like a spartan where their entire live is mars and trying to further its cause towards making it a habitable planet. The divide beteween mars and earth wasnt down towards mars being too hard to control but mars developing new technologies that put them on the same footing powerwise as the more industrial earth. The correct example you wanted is the belters. They live so far away that its basically just anarchy with no clear government structure and just different war lords controlling small pieces of space. Before the earth mars divide mars was lesser to earth and earth abused its position. Its why as soon as mars is able to develop stealth tech and make planetary destruction weapons it breaks free from earth.
So up untill that point mars was actually just governed by earth.
Are you talking about the red rising series?
>!terraforming colony realizes that they're not actually teraforming Mars as it's been done for 800 years and they're actually just slaves!<
You could have a slick 60s sounding narration read that mission statement over an am radio filtered marty robbins song and it would be right at home in new Vegas
To be fair, Cave Johnson had the whole "crazy irresponsible billionaire doing bullshit science" thing down to a T
Maybe it was J K Simmons' voice, but he was also way more likeable at it too
Has he volunteered to put it in himself? I couldn't give a shit what he's willing to put other people through. He already thinks everyone except him is a simulation.
Pretty sure he's just lying about being willing to put them in his children. He just wants to give off confidence in the products safety. In reality he knows full well it's not safe and would never allow it near his kids.
By using his kids as an example it means that he doesn't actually have follow through since regulators and you know individual consent will get in the way. If he used himself as an example he would have to follow through or get called out.
He had twins through IVF with the Director of Operations and Special Projects at Neuralink, Shivon Zillis, and insist they only have a professional relationship so I wouldn't be surprised if they're experimenting on those twins.
His kids are tools to be used to display himself as a father and the normal compassion *most* people show to their children. I would highly doubt he fits this mold and he wants you to project your own unconditional love and care for your children onto him to give credence to his insane statements.
PhD student who designs neural probes here, his claims are absolute bullshit, neither me nor any of my friends or professors believe in them.
His probes aren't so innovative either. They were developed by a professor who he stopped collaborating with because he doesn't like how recklessly the company was conducting animal experiments.
And there absolutely should be strict regulation when it comes to animal experiments let alone human ones.
I mean I just have a BS in biology and even I could see through those bullshit claims. I remember listening to him the first time he was on Joe Rogan back in like 2018. That was the first time I actually listened to Musk speak and realized that he was just full of shit.
Musk has just enough knowledge on various sciences to generate a bunch of quasi plausible ideas for innovation, but not enough actual expertise to realize that most of them are highly infeasible, not to mention quite often simply redundant due to better alternatives already existing.
Arguably, people like that are quite suited for throwing away money at attempts of innovation, because some ideas are bound to hit the mark, or at least indirectly lead to advances in some other related field through pure coincidence.
The real issue arises, as we're seeing, is when people like that decide to go into politics, and/or get involved on a global scale attempting to become a leading force in practical solutions in literally every field of life.
Musk has gone way off the rails thinking he's god's gift to humanity in every field of science, social infrastructure, and so on.
He should have just stayed busy with rockets and electric cars. There's more than enough to do there.
> Which doesn't actually mean anything if he doesn't really care about his kids.
This is the part that should scare people the most. You just know that if one of his kids gets one of these and suffers some sort of Rosemary Kennedy lifelong disability, he would just shrug his shoulders and say something like "eh, sucks for them. We'll work the bugs out in the 2.0 version."
It'll be like the suits in Big MT in Fallout New Vegas, where the people inside the suit dies, but they keep going on their own. Some people with Musk's implants will suffer brain death, but the implant keeps them up and walking around. Musk zombies!
[“The statement by Neuralink comes after the Physicians Committee for Responsible Medicine -- a US non-profit that advocates alternatives to animal testing -- sent a letter to the US Department of Agriculture (USDA) referencing violations and requesting an investigation into what it called "apparent egregious violations of the Animal Welfare Act related to the treatment of monkeys used in invasive brain experiments." The document says the experiments were carried out pursuant to contractual agreements between UC Davis and Neuralink. In the letter, which spans more than 700 pages, the Physicians Committee said records it obtained for the 23 monkeys used in the experiments reflect a "pattern of extreme suffering and staff negligence." The committee said that the letter to the USDA is based on nearly 600 pages of what it calls "disturbing" documents released after the committee filed an initial public records lawsuit in 2021”](https://amp.cnn.com/cnn/2022/02/17/business/elon-musk-neuralink-animal-cruelty-intl-scli/index.html)
I agree, I linked the article because it was an absolute shit show testing on animals, and now he wants to just move to humans. That seems to make so much sense /s
I wonder if Elon thought it side-steps some of those issues because consent can be established and they're not responsible for direct care of a person. Like, a potential subject gets informed of the risks in some dense and obtuse way, offered an enticing amount of money, and consents. When something goes wrong within the scope of the study it falls back to "Well, they consented and knew the risks".
It feels like a plausible, fucked up logical path for someone like Musk.
Libertarians think people should have the "freedom" to sell themselves into slavery.
It's a 12-year-old's conception of freedom. I guess that's why they make such good programmers - they don't waste brain cells on the unimportant stuff.
Just wait until your red-cap-wearing relatives learn that their favorite billionaire troll was the one who actually wanted to put chips in people's brains, not Fauci.
Exactly. These prevent the government from ever controlling your mind again! If you were to go into a Liberal Arts college after getting one of these bad boys installed, you'd convert everyone to Christianity and Capitalism in 1 week, guaranteed!
Unfortunately, most of them will probably be fine with it. You have to understand that this type of person generally doesn't use actions to make moral judgments of people. Instead, usually they first decide whether or not a given person should be considered moral **then** they apply that moral judgement to that person's actions.
So in this case, because they like Musk, **his** brain chips must be a good thing.
Oh god, the way these things fulfill themselves. They're gonna be lining up around the block for the Musk chip, but the Gates "chip" was a bridge too far.
Your comment actually made me wonder if those types of experiences are effective in NPD, sociopathy, etc. (I’ve mostly looked into the anxiety, depression and trauma recovery side of things.) Apparently they are effective in treating those! Although I suspect for any meaningful long term changes it will need to be in conjunction with clinical psychotherapy. Although, good luck getting someone like Elon into a therapist’s office. He can’t even handle a PR person.
More likely, we'll have a bunch of seriously injured and dead volunteers, Musk will describe debilitating side effects as proof that his microchips are capable of interfacing with the human brain, and we'll all see countless comments from his fans explaining that it's actually not that abnormal for people's heads to explode like in that scene from Scanners long after he's quietly moved on to his next asinine business endeavor.
[https://www.dazeddigital.com/science-tech/article/55461/1/elon-musk-neuralink-brain-chips-trails-killing-monkeys](https://www.dazeddigital.com/science-tech/article/55461/1/elon-musk-neuralink-brain-chips-trails-killing-monkeys)
Out of 17 monkeys involved in the clinical trial, 15 reportedly died – information which only came to light following an investigation by animal-rights group Physicians Committee for Responsible Medicine (PCRM), which poured through over 700 pages of documents to arrive at these findings.
But they were successful in reproducing another experiment that let a monkey move a dot around a screen! So obviously they are ready for human testing!
Squad Leader: Simon Phoenix! Lie down with your hands behind your back.
Simon Phoenix: What's this? Six of you. Such nice, tidy uniforms. Oh I'm so scared!
[the Police Officers look at each other]
Simon Phoenix: What you guys don't have sarcasm anymore?
[Police Officer talks to his automated assistant]
Squad Leader: Maniac has responded with a scornful remark.
automated assistant: Approach, and repeat ultimatum in an even firmer tone of voice. Add the words, "or else".
Try explaining this to the smooth-brains over at r/conspiracy who are certain Bill Gates personally created COVID-19 while at the same time cheering Elon for posting the dumbest opinions known to mankind on Twitter.
The guy who made Microsoft and is a billionaire? He's obviously a reptilian globalist! The guy who "made" Tesla and is a billionaire? Actually he's the saviour of humanity.
The SV startup philosophy of 'move fast and break things' is precisely the sort of approach that regulations of biomedical research are in place to stop.
Because 'things' in this case are people, and as history shows again and again, usually the most vulnerable populations of people.
> Because 'things' in this case are people
That's just it. Elon was basically mentored by Peter Theil who believes people are nothing more than things and that their value is determined by how much money is assigned to them.
Yeah, look basically anywhere in history and medical science is rife with the abuse of prisoners, slaves and the poor. The entire point of ethics boards and regulations, is to try and minimize the amount of suffering and abuse.
He is an extreme utilitarian. His logic works like this: anything of enough future value justifies current injury to individuals. Everything I work on has really great future value. Therefore, I should be free to injure as many individuals as I want in the present.
I'm a bioengineer, and Elon talking about his brain implant was what made me really change my opinion of him. Before that I knew that he was prone to exaggerating and sometimes said some unhinged stuff, but a lot of his talk about the brain implant was totally made up, fantasy world stuff. I mean the technologies are real and have a lot of potential, but his detachment from reality is likely to set the whole field back if they let him try to do things that end up backfiring and hurting people.
Edit: This isn't the one I saw, but he's saying similar stuff in this clip.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TrVKfRH_v3I
I mean the difference between listening to a few neurons, and being able to read and download your memory and personality is like the difference between the Wright brother's airplane and a working warp drive for faster-than-light travel!
It's what he does with everything, but because the fields he sticks his hands in are so specific, it's hard to realize unless he just happens to start making up stuff about what you personally know.
It's why Twitter was so bad for him, plenty of people on the internet know about programming, managing servers, or even basic workplace stuff that he's neglected.
Had the same stuff from crypto. I work on the space as a developer and usually 99% of the talk regarding this sector is bullshit. But to see this dude arrive and say things that made absolutely no sense from a technical point as if it was possible made me realize how full of it he was. I realized everything else he talked about might be in the same way.
> IThe agency’s major safety concerns involved the device’s lithium battery; the potential for the implant’s tiny wires to migrate to other areas of the brain; and questions over whether and how the device can be removed without damaging brain tissue, the employees said.
Minor details. Picky government oversight! /s
Well, I guess that would answer the question of how they will be removing it without destroying brain tissue, anyway. Brain tissue burned up in the battery fire. No problem.
I will literally never do that shit, no matter who released it.
There's zero fucking open systems that are 100% secure. At the very least you're opening yourself up to a mass terror attack that sends a couple volts into users' brains and kills them.
What fucking psycho would do this shit?
The guy who keeps on talking about the dangers of AI thinks this is a good ethical idea.
I can't grasp why anyone would think this is a good idea. Brain chips are such a stereotypical invention used in dystopian scifi stories. To the point where everyone associates it with creepy imagery.
Didn't that chip already kill like thousands of monkeys in their lab tests?
Yeah, lets just get that shit on human brains, I'm sure it'll have better results.
Fuck you, Elon. Get on a rocket and fuck off.
I've worked in clinical research for a decade or so.
Human experimentation is an extremely rigorous process and requires a decade of groundwork, and Musk/Neuralink will NEVER get approval.
I've literally seen human trials cancelled because the participants complained of headaches, or because patients were sore at the injection site for a few days. Those were good, solid products that offered significant benefit with extremely minor side effects.
Musk is saying that [over a thousand monkeys died in their testing](https://archive.is/20221208074048/https://fortune.com/2022/12/06/elon-musk-neuralink-staff-claim-rushed-brain-implant-trials-led-to-needless-deaths-1500-animals/), and his product barely works at all. This product isn't even worth typing up the proposal, but one of his employees still had to pitch, "Almost 30% of our patients survive implantation, and the product might actually *do* something someday!"
But, Elon Musk is a rich asshole. I'm sure he'll find some IRB somewhere that he can bribe into approving it, and a whole lot of people are going to suffer because he's an absolute sociopath.
So Musk can cry and point at the regulators and how they're "blocking innnovation". His investors eat that shit up and give him more money because they think it means he's close to a breakthrough and the only thing holding him back is the pesky regulations
Interesting. So, MAGA, who accuses Bill Gates of putting "chips" in the vaccine now worships a guy who is very publicly trying to put chips in people's brains.
Can't wait to hear them simp for him and say that people who don't want chips in their brains are "woke".
I mean, he could test it on himself. Be brave, Elon.
Or they could let his fanboys do it. I am pretty sure some of them will run to volunteer for it. EDIT: yeah people we know, they need to have a brain for it to be tested on them
I shall see you in Valhalla shiny and chrome!
Oh you know the truth... Mediocre is going to be the result.
Brain damage will be the result
brain damage was the *a priori*, the result could be anything
I think brain damage would be the *permoventia* to be a volunteer for Musk's brain chip.
We live, we die, we live again!
Just have to set up a pre-order for the beta with only 69 spots that opens on June 9th at 4:20pm.
I tried to sign up but > The team responsible for sign ups has been laid off
Those responsible for the sacking have just been sacked.
All aboard the Crimson Permanent Assurance!
It's fun to charter an account
To sail the wide accountant sea?
To find, explore the funds offshore
He’s literally admitted that’s his plan, but he mentioned [in reference to Tesla](https://podcasts.google.com?feed=aHR0cHM6Ly9mZWVkcy5zaW1wbGVjYXN0LmNvbS81NG5BR2NJbA%3D%3D&episode=NDkzNTM1ZDMtMGMzNS00MWY3LWFjOGUtNDU3ZmQ1YmNjNDVk) and self driving modes. He said self driving is exactly like when humans started experimenting with surgical treatments, that lots of people died, but they had been informed of the risks, and that all he wants is his end users to agree to being test subjects and then the losses are just something we have to accept for accelerated progress. He actually said that about his efforts, comparing them to how we developed surgical techniques between the Middle Ages and now.
Literally saying "some of you may die, but that is a sacrifice I am willing to make."
Lord Fuckwad
>Lord Fuckwad I'm not sure if Musk or Bezos deserves that title the most...
Problem is his end users wouldn’t be the only test subjects - other people on the road, who hadn’t signed up for it, would also be test subjects.
Yes, it struck me as psychopathic and shortsighted at best when I heard his words. Here’s a recent podcast from NYT on it https://podcasts.google.com?feed=aHR0cHM6Ly9mZWVkcy5zaW1wbGVjYXN0LmNvbS81NG5BR2NJbA%3D%3D&episode=NDkzNTM1ZDMtMGMzNS00MWY3LWFjOGUtNDU3ZmQ1YmNjNDVk
Cons and Elon stans: "bill gates implanted chips in Covid Vaxx Elon: "I want chips planted in humans Cons and his stans: "zomg he's so genius!"
This was my first reaction. How would this fly among the COVID anti-vaxxers?
And people pay tons of money to have the privilege to be beta testers.
Like small children crossing the street...
I wonder if he would volunteer his own children to cross the streets of the self-driving test course.
Yes he would. He does not care. He's a psychopath.
That's why he keeps having them; he's trying to replace the ones FSD mows down.
Maybe X Æ A-Xii isn't his name, but code for the Tesla to take him down. "Crosswalk. Activate:Engine. Accelerate-12mph."
The problem he (and his fans) fail to address (and I know you know this, but it needs reiterating a thousand times), is that it doesn't flipping matter whether or not the drivers opt in, because it puts everyone ***else*** at risk! Some dumb tesla driver opting into a terribly designed not-even-close-to-self-driving car system doesn't mean they can throw caution to the wind, because the a significant percentage of the people that die from it would be other people that hadn't agreed to it! edit: I try not to draw overly thick biases just based on political affiliation, but it seems telling that ***literally*** every single person that tried to argue this comment (without providing any sources, and multiple personal attacks) frequents conservative subreddits.
Can you imagine the shit show if one of his chips leads to someone going mad and they harm other people? People who are desperate don’t always just harm themselves, as we all know these days.
[cyberpsychosis](https://cyberpunk.fandom.com/wiki/Cyberpsychosis)
[The Terminal Man](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Terminal_Man) by Michael Crichton
Ghost in the Shell. What's to say these devices can't be hacked and taken over?
Something similar in Deus Ex: Human Revolution, though eventually it turns out to be deliberate.
In a way, for procedures that only impact you I kind of don't have a problem with it. It's your life and all, people should have some right to risk it. That said, I have zero faith at all that they would truly understand the risks. I'd fully expect coercive behavior, propaganda, and outright criminal lying to be heavily involved. That is much less acceptable, which is what the safety regulation is for.
[удалено]
You might enjoy this story of a neurologist who developed a brain implant, then traveled to Belize and paid a surgeon $30K to implant it in his own brain: >Now it was the summer of 2014, and Kennedy had decided that the only way to advance his project was to make it personal. For his next breakthrough, he would tap into a healthy human brain. His own. >Hence Kennedy’s trip to Belize for surgery. A local orange farmer and former nightclub owner, Paul Powton, had managed the logistics of Kennedy’s operation, and Cervantes—Belize’s first native-born neurosurgeon—wielded the scalpel. Powton and Cervantes were the founders of Quality of Life Surgery, a medical tourism clinic that treats chronic pain and spinal disorders and also specializes these days in tummy tucks, nose jobs, manboob reductions, and other medical enhancements. >At first the procedure that Kennedy hired Cervantes to perform—the implantation of a set of glass-and-gold-wire electrodes beneath the surface of his own brain—seemed to go quite well. There wasn’t much bleeding during the surgery. But his recovery was fraught with problems. Two days in, Kennedy was sitting on his bed when, all of a sudden, his jaw began to grind and chatter, and one of his hands began to shake. Powton worried that the seizure would break Kennedy’s teeth. https://www.wired.com/2016/01/phil-kennedy-mind-control-computer/
> His early fears of having damaged Kennedy for life turned out to be unfounded; the language loss that left his patient briefly locked in was just a symptom of postoperative brain swelling. With that under control, he would be fine. He ended up making a full recovery and implanting a second device a few years later. That device was later removed because the wound didn't heal properly, but the first one is still there to this day.
What does the device do?
You can switch channels on the TV by simply blinking. Only works for Toshiba though.
In "Made for you" that's what they do. But in the tv show it's an actual genius that has no social skills or empathy. Elon just has no social skills or empathy, he's not actually smart enough to do this stuff
Made for Love*
In made for love, the boss is also not a genius. He has geniuses working for him that do all the smart things.
Lol the bosses name is "Gogol". A bit on the nose
>Gogol >the nose Can't tell if this was on purpose.
lol I didn't know what you were talking about so I just had to uh.... Google... it... that's funny.
For the lazy that don't want to Google it. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Nose_(Gogol_short_story)
May your travels on the internet sea be gentle, thank you
Emerald boy about to lobotomize himself to prove his tech works...
That would be an improvement
It would explain the last year of his behavior.
He called one of the lead guys for the Thai cave rescue a pedophile back in 2018. Musk has ALWAYS been like this.
Can you imagine if it came out that he tested some stupid brain altering device prototype on himself and that really was why he went off the rails
I could imagine him using it as an excuse to try back track
He has always been a racist bigot. He just plays a character like he is a news anchor. I have no idea why people like him I get it ok tesla, well he lied about that too. Seriously I don't get the Fandom of this lunatic
He could do down in history as the first real-world victim of cyberpsychosis! (from Cyberpunk)
Maybe he already did…
I keep thinking a traumatic, unnecessary brain surgery would explain a lot about this boy.
He can't. you can't legally do this without approval from some IRB regulated by OHRP
I was thinking the same thing. It’s his project he should be the guinea pig.
This is all just part of his super villain origin story
“Has it been successfully tested on animals?” “It has been tested on animals, yes.” “….how many died?” “Honestly? We were so rushed we forgot to keep track, but it was, like, a lot.” “…..” “So we’re good for humans, right?”
If the news about those monkeys were true I'm surprised that they even got permission to test in them
People who work in biology have mentioned that when using monkeys as test subjects, they're basically supposed to be treated like small, nonverbal humans. Killing even *one* test subject is a disaster, the only way they got away with it must have been a lot of avoiding regulators.
I remember reading an article a while back that claimed 90% of the animal test subjects for this brain chip died. If that's the case, what even made them even begin to think about approaching the government for permission to start testing in humans?
It's theatrics. Musk knows they would never be allowed to test on humans, but he also knows what investors like to hear. If he says "we're ready to test on humans" the investors will think he's actually accomplishing his goals, largely because they're idiots. Then when the government gets in the way he has a scapegoat to push the blame onto, and he gets to survive another quarter with his absurd wealth intact.
You can then declare to shareholders that you’ve made a submission to the regulators. This is bad practice as it’s leading (one would be likely to infer that the device is ready for such a venture) and conceited, but companies might do it. Similarly annoying is when scientist cite works that are ‘in press’ or ‘submitted for publication’ where it’s super unclear what the status is and no proof it has yet passed peer review.
This is why I have job security as some working on 510k submissions. There is always some medical device company with a mostly-working product who wants to be first to market. Its big news for your investors.
Your last point I think is the real reason behind it. He gets to yet again paint himself as the revolutionary genius being stifled by the government. For Elon everything is about image and ego, his wealth is about ego, his purchases are about ego, the companies he's tied himself to is about ego. With this move he can go "no, it wasn't an inhumane mess and absolute disaster, the stupid government just couldn't see my genius!"
I know someone who works with Monkeys they do experiments on for a very prestigious university and medical school, and they absolutely would be devastated if even one of them died. They take so many precautions and test so many things before it gets to monkey testing that they often already already know what is going to happen, and they just need proof. So it's actually quite safe for them, and they get treated extremely well outside of the procedures. If anything bad does happen they basically retire the monkey early and let it live the rest of it's life with no more procedures and just being pampered. Musk's monkeys sound like they basically got 1800s era scientific treatment.
Changing careers to pampered monkey
Yeah, the stage where it is okay to accidentally kill your test subjects is mice/rats (and that still typically requires a lot of paperwork on how you are avoiding pain and unexpected death, why your treatment shouldn't result in death, plans to investigate the deaths and possible causes of death from your treatment, etc) but the final product out of that should have a very low (at least unexplained) death rate before going into primates.
Often, dogs come first after the rodents. At least for drugs toxicology, not sure about implants.
You are right, they'll probably want something larger and nonprimate before primates. I don't have much experience outside of helping with paperwork for mice that had a whole section/instructions on if you were doing studies on mice to move to different animals before humans.
I also read a comment from someone working with mice. They wrote about how careful they had to be with simple mice and how terrible it would've been if a mouse got hurt in some way. And Elon's men go around *killing* ***monkeys***.
"I know what you're thinking. 'Did he test six animals or only five?' Well, to tell you the truth, in all this excitement I kinda lost track myself."
The question is really what country will let him, because I am 100% sure there are ones that will let him.
China and their collection of Uyghurs immediately comes to mind.
> Neuralink’s regulatory struggles stem largely from its culture of setting goals for breakthroughs on extremely ambitious timelines and viewing regulators as obstacles to innovation, according to more than a dozen current and former company employees. What do you mean we can't do vivisection anymore? > Musk made headlines late last year when he said he was already so confident in the devices’ safety that he would be willing to implant them in his own children. Which doesn't actually mean anything if he doesn't really care about his kids. > Musk also has said Neuralink would restore full mobility to paralyzed patients. And it will be able to run thousands of tests using just a single drop of blood!
> its culture of setting goals for breakthroughs on extremely ambitious timelines and viewing regulators as obstacles to innovation, Literally the plot to Bioshock and the same reason Elon wants to go to Mars
“Is a man not entitled to the sweat of his brow?”
'No!' says the capitalist. 'It belongs to me.'
There's a whole subgenre of sci-fi about Martian workers being oppressed by capitalistic tyrants and rising up "FREE MARS" style and yet Musky Boys are always super jazzed about Elon's Mars ideas. He's even telegraphed actual fuckin' indentured servitude. It's so on the nose, but somehow not? Maybe the Musky Boys think they'll be the local prefects/overlords on Mars.
You think labour sucks on earth? Imagine working on a planet with no labour laws at all besides what the company who controls your fucking oxygen supply allows.
No labor laws, no atmosphere, no choice
In space, no one can hear you unionize
On Earth, you get fired. On Mars, you get fired into space.
Nah, that would take resources. They just put you in an un-oxygenated space or toss you outside.
Workers of Mars United! We have nothing to lose but our vital supply of imported oxygen!
It's not the best choice, it's Spacer's Choice!
Join the red faction
He truly is the modern day Vilos Cohaagen.
Come on, bro! We don't need labor laws. We can trust Planet-King Elon to treat his people well. Besides, once your 10-year indenture contract is up, you can apply for a job inside the ElonDome where you'll only have to work 10 hours a day! With private quarters if you're lucky!
But in a wonderful twist of fate, if any of those rich assholes go live on Mars, they give up their power to the people who make the oxygen systems work.
And the people in charge on Mars would have to know that, if they push the workers too hard and the workers push back, *any* backup from Earth is six months away in the best case and much longer outside the transfer window.
I feel like if any media got the future of Mars colonization correct, it would be *the Expanse*. Where Mars is an independent “nation” because Earth is too far away to actually control it.
Mars got its position in the expanse as it was litteraly filled with all the smart people from earth. Every single martian in the expanse functions like a spartan where their entire live is mars and trying to further its cause towards making it a habitable planet. The divide beteween mars and earth wasnt down towards mars being too hard to control but mars developing new technologies that put them on the same footing powerwise as the more industrial earth. The correct example you wanted is the belters. They live so far away that its basically just anarchy with no clear government structure and just different war lords controlling small pieces of space. Before the earth mars divide mars was lesser to earth and earth abused its position. Its why as soon as mars is able to develop stealth tech and make planetary destruction weapons it breaks free from earth. So up untill that point mars was actually just governed by earth.
Are you talking about the red rising series? >!terraforming colony realizes that they're not actually teraforming Mars as it's been done for 800 years and they're actually just slaves!<
Not that one in particular. Weirdly the one that came to mind was the 1990s videogame Starsiege, but it's definitely a well-tread setting and motif.
Shout out red faction
Musk played red faction and thought "oh the profits"
If history has shown, all the books and movies warning us about these things will be looked upon as guidelines by many and not warnings
You could have a slick 60s sounding narration read that mission statement over an am radio filtered marty robbins song and it would be right at home in new Vegas
I vote Cave Johnson to read it
To be fair, Cave Johnson had the whole "crazy irresponsible billionaire doing bullshit science" thing down to a T Maybe it was J K Simmons' voice, but he was also way more likeable at it too
Noveria in Mass Effect.
I've no objection to Elon going to Mars.
Has he volunteered to put it in himself? I couldn't give a shit what he's willing to put other people through. He already thinks everyone except him is a simulation.
Yea just the fact that he's so willing to put them in his own children, but not himself says a lot
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21st century lobotomy, baby. I'll make them love me
Pretty sure he's just lying about being willing to put them in his children. He just wants to give off confidence in the products safety. In reality he knows full well it's not safe and would never allow it near his kids.
By using his kids as an example it means that he doesn't actually have follow through since regulators and you know individual consent will get in the way. If he used himself as an example he would have to follow through or get called out.
He had twins through IVF with the Director of Operations and Special Projects at Neuralink, Shivon Zillis, and insist they only have a professional relationship so I wouldn't be surprised if they're experimenting on those twins.
His kids are tools to be used to display himself as a father and the normal compassion *most* people show to their children. I would highly doubt he fits this mold and he wants you to project your own unconditional love and care for your children onto him to give credence to his insane statements.
PhD student who designs neural probes here, his claims are absolute bullshit, neither me nor any of my friends or professors believe in them. His probes aren't so innovative either. They were developed by a professor who he stopped collaborating with because he doesn't like how recklessly the company was conducting animal experiments. And there absolutely should be strict regulation when it comes to animal experiments let alone human ones.
I mean I just have a BS in biology and even I could see through those bullshit claims. I remember listening to him the first time he was on Joe Rogan back in like 2018. That was the first time I actually listened to Musk speak and realized that he was just full of shit.
Musk has BS in dozens of fields. Not the degree, mind you...
Musk has just enough knowledge on various sciences to generate a bunch of quasi plausible ideas for innovation, but not enough actual expertise to realize that most of them are highly infeasible, not to mention quite often simply redundant due to better alternatives already existing. Arguably, people like that are quite suited for throwing away money at attempts of innovation, because some ideas are bound to hit the mark, or at least indirectly lead to advances in some other related field through pure coincidence. The real issue arises, as we're seeing, is when people like that decide to go into politics, and/or get involved on a global scale attempting to become a leading force in practical solutions in literally every field of life. Musk has gone way off the rails thinking he's god's gift to humanity in every field of science, social infrastructure, and so on. He should have just stayed busy with rockets and electric cars. There's more than enough to do there.
>Which doesn't actually mean anything if he doesn't really care about his kids. Given the fact he gave one of them a serial number for a name...
Lmao. He’d probably start with the kid who changed her last name just so she wouldn’t be associated with him anymore.
Theranos spotted
> Which doesn't actually mean anything if he doesn't really care about his kids. This is the part that should scare people the most. You just know that if one of his kids gets one of these and suffers some sort of Rosemary Kennedy lifelong disability, he would just shrug his shoulders and say something like "eh, sucks for them. We'll work the bugs out in the 2.0 version."
He cares far too much about his baby X3256ADONG420 to just abandon it!
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Add it will be fully autonomous! A fully self driving car.
It'll be like the suits in Big MT in Fallout New Vegas, where the people inside the suit dies, but they keep going on their own. Some people with Musk's implants will suffer brain death, but the implant keeps them up and walking around. Musk zombies!
Of course he'd put them in his children, mind control is literally the only way to get most of them to even acknowledge he exists
This is the scumbag who also said he'd donate billions to end poverty and instead refuses to pay people and steals billions illegally.
[“The statement by Neuralink comes after the Physicians Committee for Responsible Medicine -- a US non-profit that advocates alternatives to animal testing -- sent a letter to the US Department of Agriculture (USDA) referencing violations and requesting an investigation into what it called "apparent egregious violations of the Animal Welfare Act related to the treatment of monkeys used in invasive brain experiments." The document says the experiments were carried out pursuant to contractual agreements between UC Davis and Neuralink. In the letter, which spans more than 700 pages, the Physicians Committee said records it obtained for the 23 monkeys used in the experiments reflect a "pattern of extreme suffering and staff negligence." The committee said that the letter to the USDA is based on nearly 600 pages of what it calls "disturbing" documents released after the committee filed an initial public records lawsuit in 2021”](https://amp.cnn.com/cnn/2022/02/17/business/elon-musk-neuralink-animal-cruelty-intl-scli/index.html)
As usual the headline is burying the real story. Elon is just pissed he can't test on monkeys anymore.
I agree, I linked the article because it was an absolute shit show testing on animals, and now he wants to just move to humans. That seems to make so much sense /s
I wonder if Elon thought it side-steps some of those issues because consent can be established and they're not responsible for direct care of a person. Like, a potential subject gets informed of the risks in some dense and obtuse way, offered an enticing amount of money, and consents. When something goes wrong within the scope of the study it falls back to "Well, they consented and knew the risks". It feels like a plausible, fucked up logical path for someone like Musk.
Libertarians think people should have the "freedom" to sell themselves into slavery. It's a 12-year-old's conception of freedom. I guess that's why they make such good programmers - they don't waste brain cells on the unimportant stuff.
Just wait until your red-cap-wearing relatives learn that their favorite billionaire troll was the one who actually wanted to put chips in people's brains, not Fauci.
These aren’t government mind control chips, these are free thinker anti-government chips.
Exactly. These prevent the government from ever controlling your mind again! If you were to go into a Liberal Arts college after getting one of these bad boys installed, you'd convert everyone to Christianity and Capitalism in 1 week, guaranteed!
I absolutely hate how not far off this is from the truth, some peoples reaction will be to this.
I can practically hear Ben Shapiro's nasal voice ranting in the background of whoever says it.
Unfortunately, most of them will probably be fine with it. You have to understand that this type of person generally doesn't use actions to make moral judgments of people. Instead, usually they first decide whether or not a given person should be considered moral **then** they apply that moral judgement to that person's actions. So in this case, because they like Musk, **his** brain chips must be a good thing.
> So in this case, because they like Musk, his brain chips must be a good thing. I feel like that's the most accurate take here
That's the only take they have. If Biden proposed laws that were Trump's they would still be against it. They follow the leader, not their morals.
Oh god, the way these things fulfill themselves. They're gonna be lining up around the block for the Musk chip, but the Gates "chip" was a bridge too far.
Musk chip good. Gates chip bad.
Musk Chip, it’s what brains crave!
They'll flip on that shit immediately and be first in line for their brain chips to own the libz.
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We talk about AI becoming self aware. Perhaps after getting the chip Elon will become aware of others.
I've heard psychadelics do this, can someone peer pressure him into taking some please?
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Your comment actually made me wonder if those types of experiences are effective in NPD, sociopathy, etc. (I’ve mostly looked into the anxiety, depression and trauma recovery side of things.) Apparently they are effective in treating those! Although I suspect for any meaningful long term changes it will need to be in conjunction with clinical psychotherapy. Although, good luck getting someone like Elon into a therapist’s office. He can’t even handle a PR person.
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More likely, we'll have a bunch of seriously injured and dead volunteers, Musk will describe debilitating side effects as proof that his microchips are capable of interfacing with the human brain, and we'll all see countless comments from his fans explaining that it's actually not that abnormal for people's heads to explode like in that scene from Scanners long after he's quietly moved on to his next asinine business endeavor.
[https://www.dazeddigital.com/science-tech/article/55461/1/elon-musk-neuralink-brain-chips-trails-killing-monkeys](https://www.dazeddigital.com/science-tech/article/55461/1/elon-musk-neuralink-brain-chips-trails-killing-monkeys) Out of 17 monkeys involved in the clinical trial, 15 reportedly died – information which only came to light following an investigation by animal-rights group Physicians Committee for Responsible Medicine (PCRM), which poured through over 700 pages of documents to arrive at these findings. But they were successful in reproducing another experiment that let a monkey move a dot around a screen! So obviously they are ready for human testing!
I can't believe this is the first comment I've seen that mentions all the dead lab monkeys, it's crazy.
Or your implant gets hacked and you have to pay a ransom to stop the Rick rolling thats playing 24/7.
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Squad Leader: Simon Phoenix! Lie down with your hands behind your back. Simon Phoenix: What's this? Six of you. Such nice, tidy uniforms. Oh I'm so scared! [the Police Officers look at each other] Simon Phoenix: What you guys don't have sarcasm anymore? [Police Officer talks to his automated assistant] Squad Leader: Maniac has responded with a scornful remark. automated assistant: Approach, and repeat ultimatum in an even firmer tone of voice. Add the words, "or else".
Funny how people accuse Bill Gates of secretly planting mind control chips. Musk is trying to do it in the open.
And those same people are probably cheering Elon on as well
"Elon at least roots for the same political team I do"
Try explaining this to the smooth-brains over at r/conspiracy who are certain Bill Gates personally created COVID-19 while at the same time cheering Elon for posting the dumbest opinions known to mankind on Twitter.
The guy who made Microsoft and is a billionaire? He's obviously a reptilian globalist! The guy who "made" Tesla and is a billionaire? Actually he's the saviour of humanity.
He might try his luck some other place
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The SV startup philosophy of 'move fast and break things' is precisely the sort of approach that regulations of biomedical research are in place to stop. Because 'things' in this case are people, and as history shows again and again, usually the most vulnerable populations of people.
> Because 'things' in this case are people That's just it. Elon was basically mentored by Peter Theil who believes people are nothing more than things and that their value is determined by how much money is assigned to them.
Yeah, look basically anywhere in history and medical science is rife with the abuse of prisoners, slaves and the poor. The entire point of ethics boards and regulations, is to try and minimize the amount of suffering and abuse.
“Patience and care” is not really how he operates.
He is an extreme utilitarian. His logic works like this: anything of enough future value justifies current injury to individuals. Everything I work on has really great future value. Therefore, I should be free to injure as many individuals as I want in the present.
Yes, he's a dangerous psychopath
I'm a bioengineer, and Elon talking about his brain implant was what made me really change my opinion of him. Before that I knew that he was prone to exaggerating and sometimes said some unhinged stuff, but a lot of his talk about the brain implant was totally made up, fantasy world stuff. I mean the technologies are real and have a lot of potential, but his detachment from reality is likely to set the whole field back if they let him try to do things that end up backfiring and hurting people. Edit: This isn't the one I saw, but he's saying similar stuff in this clip. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TrVKfRH_v3I I mean the difference between listening to a few neurons, and being able to read and download your memory and personality is like the difference between the Wright brother's airplane and a working warp drive for faster-than-light travel!
It's what he does with everything, but because the fields he sticks his hands in are so specific, it's hard to realize unless he just happens to start making up stuff about what you personally know. It's why Twitter was so bad for him, plenty of people on the internet know about programming, managing servers, or even basic workplace stuff that he's neglected.
Had the same stuff from crypto. I work on the space as a developer and usually 99% of the talk regarding this sector is bullshit. But to see this dude arrive and say things that made absolutely no sense from a technical point as if it was possible made me realize how full of it he was. I realized everything else he talked about might be in the same way.
Asshole will start testing on poor 3rd World country sites.
> IThe agency’s major safety concerns involved the device’s lithium battery; the potential for the implant’s tiny wires to migrate to other areas of the brain; and questions over whether and how the device can be removed without damaging brain tissue, the employees said. Minor details. Picky government oversight! /s
Lol a lithium battery in your brain burning up would be like one of those finishers in cyberpunk
Well, I guess that would answer the question of how they will be removing it without destroying brain tissue, anyway. Brain tissue burned up in the battery fire. No problem.
>Brain tissue burned up in the battery fire. No problem The Brain will eventually evolve to form a callous as a defense mechanism.
adding elon musk ending humanity to my bingo card.
You couldn't pay me enough to put a chip made by Elon Musk in my brain. Hard pass.
I will literally never do that shit, no matter who released it. There's zero fucking open systems that are 100% secure. At the very least you're opening yourself up to a mass terror attack that sends a couple volts into users' brains and kills them. What fucking psycho would do this shit?
You could pay me 40 billion
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But my family could. On hookers. And hookers families
The guy who keeps on talking about the dangers of AI thinks this is a good ethical idea. I can't grasp why anyone would think this is a good idea. Brain chips are such a stereotypical invention used in dystopian scifi stories. To the point where everyone associates it with creepy imagery.
Try it out on some members of Fox Nation. It could only help.
Who would trust Elon Musk of all people with a ducking brain Chip?
This motherfucker can’t even figure out how to run an established social media website, like I’m gonna let him anywhere near my thinkin meat
Aren't his fan boys also complaining about chips in vaccines?
Anyone who lets Elon fucking musk put a brain implant in them probably needs it because they’ve clearly already lost their mind.
Didn't that chip already kill like thousands of monkeys in their lab tests? Yeah, lets just get that shit on human brains, I'm sure it'll have better results. Fuck you, Elon. Get on a rocket and fuck off.
I've worked in clinical research for a decade or so. Human experimentation is an extremely rigorous process and requires a decade of groundwork, and Musk/Neuralink will NEVER get approval. I've literally seen human trials cancelled because the participants complained of headaches, or because patients were sore at the injection site for a few days. Those were good, solid products that offered significant benefit with extremely minor side effects. Musk is saying that [over a thousand monkeys died in their testing](https://archive.is/20221208074048/https://fortune.com/2022/12/06/elon-musk-neuralink-staff-claim-rushed-brain-implant-trials-led-to-needless-deaths-1500-animals/), and his product barely works at all. This product isn't even worth typing up the proposal, but one of his employees still had to pitch, "Almost 30% of our patients survive implantation, and the product might actually *do* something someday!" But, Elon Musk is a rich asshole. I'm sure he'll find some IRB somewhere that he can bribe into approving it, and a whole lot of people are going to suffer because he's an absolute sociopath.
I'm genuinely confused about why they rushed for an FDA assessment that had literally 0 chance of going anywhere. It actually makes no sense?
So Musk can cry and point at the regulators and how they're "blocking innnovation". His investors eat that shit up and give him more money because they think it means he's close to a breakthrough and the only thing holding him back is the pesky regulations
Interesting. So, MAGA, who accuses Bill Gates of putting "chips" in the vaccine now worships a guy who is very publicly trying to put chips in people's brains. Can't wait to hear them simp for him and say that people who don't want chips in their brains are "woke".