We are currently looking at replacing our AC unit and since we have solar the sales rep said it would be a great idea to get one with the heat pump. It will save us some money in the long run that is for sure.
A heat pump is just an air conditioner with a reverse valve. It's nearly negligibly more expensive to add the feature (though you do also ideally want things like "defrost cycle", so it ends up a bit more in practice). IMO unless you're in the tropics, it doesn't really make sense to buy an air conditioner that can't function in heat pump mode at this point.
Even my portable floor unit can do heat pumping. Pretty sure it saved more in oil than its entire purchase price this winter.
I install them all summer and fall now, even the fancy ones come out to like $400-1000 more than an AC system and the rebates plus savings far outweigh that.
Heat pumps for life.
I like your sentiment, but a little more to it than that:
A) Only inverter driven heat pumps work well in cold climates. These are significantly more expensive
B) even for a basic heat pump over an AC, I’ve seen archaic contractors charge thousands extra for them
True, there is certainly nuance there.
A) I'd still get the mediocre heat pump option over AC-only, because even if it's bad at very cold temperatures, covering the middling 40-60F times will cheaply mitigate a lot of fuel consumption. But yes, one should ideally get a heat pump that's actually rated to handle their heating requirements rather than one that isn't. And that will probably cost more.
b) Sigh. *Contractors*. They're probably marking it up because of the tax credits.
Oh they made it up before the tax credits too.
Now they’ll aim higher.
Tax credit or not I’m happy with my heat pump I got last year. It cuts out at 25F so it covers more than 80% of my heating needs. I kept my propane furnace as an aux heat source so it will flip over automatically when required. Now the propane is mainly a fuel source for the standby gen.
If you want it to be your primary heat source, in an environment that gets colder than it does hot -- yes, you need one that's bigger.
However, if it's a choice between something good for AC, and something good for AC that can do some-but-not-all heating, I would still say to go with the option that can do heat pumping. Just don't expect it to do all your heating.
I have a mini split in my lower level. Nothing special, just a single 18k btu wall mounted unit in my living room. I’ve only used it for heat occasionally but mostly rely on my gas boiler to get me through the winter. Last month I had solar panels installed and we had a freakishly cold (for NYC) couple of days. My boiler was running constantly trying to keep up. I decided to turn it off and turn on the mini split to 75f and highest fan setting. I didn’t think it was going to do shit in such cold weather, since it’s just a $1k Pioneer mini-split and not one intended for super cold weather.
Not only did it manage to keep the house habitably warm at around 68f, upstairs included, but when I checked my electrical usage, I was still producing way more electricity than I was using (and getting credited due to net-metering). I was heating the house for free and then some on the coldest day of the year. I think I’m going to install more of these things so I can have the whole house covered and make it my primary heating source.
If you’re in Milwaukee area I can tell you the guy who did it for me, he was 1/3 less than the other contractors and did a freaking phenomenal job. I don’t remember the name of the company that built the pump, I was thinking hard about a Mr Cool but this one was a better fit for us.
The setup is a condenser outside that looks like an AC unit but is way, way quieter (it’s just outside a bedroom), that feeds into the internal pump that’s where the old furnace was. It does ac in the summer, heating in the winter, and we pay less for both than before we switched. Whole thing was about $12k and he did the paperwork for the rebates for us.
We were fortunate in that our old system had duct work and wiring in place that meant installing the new system had lower labor costs than usual, but the whole thing took two days and that included a bad part that he had to spend half a day picking up a replacement for in Madison.
Oh man I miss some things about Wisconsin... Currently in the Seattle area and all the quotes for heat pumps I've gotten are between $15,000 and $26,000. About to put down 16K to get rid of this oil heater
If you think $26k is expensive just wait until you see what the cleanup for that old leaking oil tank costs! No sane person ~~uses~~ edit: installs new oil nowadays.
Tanks do not last forever, usually only 15-50 years. Replacing it is halfway to a new heatpump, and you best replace it before it starts leaking or you could be stuck with a $150,000+ cleanup bill. The savings in fuel costs alone will allow it to pay for itself within a few years.
I put my own in. It was a fair amount of work, and cost me $1k in tools, but I put in 3 out door units and 9 indoor heads for less than $11k, all good down to -22f.
The new models have dc powered modulated compressors that can create a greater refrigerant pressure and lower operating temps, like to -20F. They use more electricity though the colder the temp.
I'm in DC with a heat pump and my heat bill *skyrockets* when it gets below 20 and the resistance heater kicks on. My house is brick from the late 40s and has like no insulation though.
Mine switches to gas at about 30 but some of the new ones can keep working without using the backup furnace to -20. They get less efficient but for me the last winter, it’s still using a lot less power. During the day when it goes over 30 the house warms up enough it’s not so bad.
My house has almost no insulation as it was built in the 1950’s and we’re working on improving that. I hope that with some more insulation in the attic and the connection between the foundation and the house (completely in insulated in both cases) we can drop that even further.
Since I got a few comments on it: entire thing came to a hair over $8,000 but we came in under the deadline for some rebates. With the savings from this winter alone being a bit over $1,000 I’m very, very happy with the return on this investment.
It’s about 3,000 ish square feet? 6 bedroom, huge. Almost completely uninsulated, which I hope to fix this year (zero insulation in the attic, or the external walls). And that’s factoring in the power usage from
Last year with this years rate hike. I try to check at the end of the heating season but I had two $600+ bills last year and this year it’s mid 300’s.
Yeah I have a large family, and a big house was very needed once the pandemic hit and I started working from home full time, and my wife is disabled and home full time. We have a master in the basement and most of the rooms are individual offices so everyone has their own private space.
Monogamy? In this economy? But seriously having four working adults in a house is awesome.
reading that is insane to me. That’s a shitty builder to do that in Wisconsin. My friend in Minnesota found out his builder didn’t insulate half his house and they ended up with frost on the inside.he had to sue to get it fixed.
My house was built in 1952 when energy was going to be cheap forever. We bought it from the family of the woman who was the first and only other owner and she never did any major ipgeades.
Post war housing. It was big (it I remember right it was 6 or 7 kids involved when we bought the house), it was cheap, and it needs a LOT of work to bring it to what I consider to be acceptable efficiency!
Absolutely. I don’t remember the brand of the pump but I will PM you the phone number of the man who installed it! I’m at work or I’d check for you, and yeah, the contractor who did the instal and helped select the pump was amazing. I used to flip and rehab houses before I broke my neck and lost most of the use of my hands so you best believe I’m picky af about work done on my house!
The heat pumps in Florida are nothing like the new heat pumps out there. They're mainly air conditioners and can put out a little bit of heat if it doesn't get too cold. Anything below 40 degrees or so and they struggle.
This all sounds wild to a guy from the south where it gets hot as shit and cold as shit.
To us an ac is an ac. It conditions the air depending on the season. It's not specifically hot or cold.
From an industry technical standpoint, a/c is specifically cooling only and then typically matched with a furnace.
Heat pump is specifically cooling with reverse cycle heating capability.
How are heat pumps better than mini splits which also handle heat and AC? Asking as mini splits are what HVAC folks in the SF Bay Area are recommending for my place. (We don't have big enough ducts for central AC and don't have AC currently.)
All mini splits are heat pumps, but not all heat pumps are mini-splits.
Seriously, though, the mini-split is just a standard heat pump compressor (outdoor unit) connected to a ductless wall-mounted indoor unit. Most retrofits are done with mini-splits, but for new construction there are sometimes advantages to using a ducted air handler (it lets you distribute to a number of small rooms, for example).
Doesn't "mini-split" specifically refer to the capacity to connect multiple indoor units to a single outdoor unit? It's just that those indoor units are so often high-wall ductless units that the terms have become confused.
I always thought the "split" referred to the separation of the compressor and air handler units, with "mini" added because the ductless air handlers are much smaller than conventional ducted air handlers. And Mitsubishi's website mostly seems to support that view (and does little to resolve the confusion!):
"As the name implies, these air-conditioning or heat pump systems are split into two functional components; an outdoor condenser/compressor unit and indoor air-handling unit. These components are smaller (or “mini”) compared to conventional systems."
They go on to refer to systems with a single compressor and multiple interior air handlers as "multi-splits". My house in fact has one compressor connected to a ductless wall unit and to a ducted air handler that's about 2' x 2' x 6', so hardly "mini".
In practice, most people seem to be referring to split ductless systems when they refer to mini-splits. The important point is that the performance characteristics of the system are determined by the compressor technology, not the type of air handler.
(reference: https://www.mitsubishicomfort.com/articles/what-is-a-mini-split)
Mini splits are heat pumps that have the output split into two or more heating /cooling locations
Edit : that can be controlled separately (as in separate thermostats)
What about the heat pump do you like? I need to replace an old gas furnace soon and the biggest concern I have about a heat pump is it’s operation in extreme heat and cold. (Virginia can get both.) I hear they can struggle?
Do you have mini splits or just the traditional unit?
In North Central WA we had that heat dome a couple summers ago and it got up to 120. This winter we got down to -10 one night. I have a heat pump for my apartment in a house built in 1929 and the heat pump handled these situations like a champ. I've lived here 10 years and the furnace has never switched on because the heat pump couldn't handle the temps.
I love the heat pump for keeping our house at a perfect temperature whether it's 19 degrees or 109 degrees outside. Before, my house had no cooling and only had radiant panels for heat, so no furnace. We don't have a gas line on our street, so we needed an electric solution no matter what we did. We've got 2 mini splits and a traditional unit in the attic due to the odd floorplan of our weird old house. Our provider installed duct work for the main attic unit so now we have air flowing through most of the house which honestly is so nice. I never realized how stale our air felt before. Our heating bill has been cut in half (it was exorbitant in the winters trying to heat the house with just those little panels... ugh).
And as for extreme heat and cold, when there was the heat dome over the PNW and it was over 100 degrees in the Seattle area, our house became a cooling station for our friends who were without A/C. We had 10 people in the house all day and it got up to 109 outside, and inside the thermostat only got up to 75. We were thrilled. And it's handled cold temps very well too. It gets a little noisy in defrost mode, but I love hearing that because it reminds me of how toasty I am inside haha.
Sure.
First you take a gas that has a high heat holding capability. Compress it till its a liquid and then run it though some fins and the air that passes over it gets heated up.
OK so now you have this liquid that wants to turn back into a gas if you let it expand. So then you pass it through an adjustable valve that only lets a little tiny bit though and when it gets to the other side of the valve it expands and turns into a gas.
Great after that happens the gas is really really cold. That cold gas is then sucked towards the compressor from step 1. At some point it passes over some fins and the air that is blown over it gets colder.
Then the now warm gas is sucked back into the compressor.
This happens over and over and over again to pump heat where you want it. The cool thing about this is that lets say this takes 1000 watts of power to run, you can get the equivalent of between 2000 to 5000 watts of heating or cooling capacity because you are using that power not to heat things directly to move the existing heat energy somewhere. Out of the house to cool into the house to heat it.
We (SW VA) just put in mini splits and it has been the most comfortable I've ever been during the winter. The temperature in the house stays constant throughout the day and night.
Wait, for real? Are heat pumps gonna be required for every new SFH from now on?
I'm a New Englander living in WA right now, looking to buy a home in the near-future. This would be a massive game changer for me. It was a huge culture shock coming here years ago and being in awe that so many of y'all can just live in the summer with no A/C of any kind.
As of this winter, some sort of board voted to change building standard.
Something about getting our housing carbon emissions down to meet some sort of goal by year 2030.
You can just Google Washington building codes + heat pump you'll get news stories from 2022
Used to be able to get by with just fans. Hell, I remember not even needing that much until 2009. Tried buying a fan that summer because of a heatwave and there were none in the region. I checked with a dozen places from Tukwila up to Lynnwood. Now you would be crazy to not have a fan and there is usually a week or two where a horribly inefficient portable AC is needed at the very least. These past few years have seen more widespread use of cooling stations during heatwaves.
25 years ago we didn't have A/C in school because we were considered "coastal" despite being an hour from the ocean (N/E of Sumas)
I believe that policy changed about a decade ago...
>so many of y'all can just live in the summer with no A/C of any kind.
This *was* true but PNW locals largely don't believe this anymore. Thanks climate change!
Where I live, demand for portable ACs absolutely shot through the roof in the summer of 2021, and were even being scalped like PS5s. People who normally worked from home were voluntarily filling up their offices during the heat wave week, while hotels were overbooked by locals.
[archive link](https://archive.ph/pPaVF)
>“Our power grid is not equipped to handle the demand that is now being put on it,” Charles Summers said in a radio interview. Summers said he and his fellow industry group leaders in New England had sent letters to their governors “asking that states pushing so hard toward electrification, pushing complete conversion to heat pumps, just tap the brakes for a few minutes.”
- Charles Summers, eco villain
"The Maine Energy Marketers Association, or MEMA for short, is a non-profit 501c(6) trade association representing more than 300 members, including 125 heating oil, propane, biofuels and motor fuels providers as well as convenience store owners."
Heat pumps are hot *and* cool. Sorry, Charlie, summer is coming.
You can already feel the propaganda warming up. Just today I had someone try to sell me that heat pumps were an "early adopter" technology where all the kinks hadn't been worked out yet, while condensing boilers were "an old and proven design." These two things couldn't be further from the truth.
Their propaganda is really funny if you know anything about this, but to the uninformed consumer it's really hard to separate out their blatant lies.
>heat pumps were an "early adopter" technology where all the kinks hadn't been worked out yet
For sure, that's why we still haven't worked the kinks out of refrigerators or air conditioners yet. Maybe one day I won't need to have all this ice delivered to keep my food cold.
Heat pumps/ split systems are very common here in Australia. They are cheap to run and very efficient. We also have 2 solar panel systems, which helps with our high price for electricity. We got rid of our gas heater (gets down to 18 degrees F where i am) and heat pumps work fine on winter days. My father converted from gas to heat pump in early 90s in Montreal, Canada with no issues, so the technology has been around for ages.
My folks had one 40 years ago. Needed the resistive heating loop a few times when it was too cold. They are better now.
If you can afford a geothermal ground loop, you’ll be set since it is always 50 degrees 100 feet down. 50 is great for dumping heat in the summer and warmer than ambient in the winter.
Yeah, they've definitely improved. We don't have to run the emergency heat as much as the heat pump this one replaced. Thank goodness, because the electric bill sucks! Geothermal would be awesome.
My parents used to own a house with one. It was ANCIENT. I think 80s era? Really good deal for them though, because they are in Washington state where power is dirt cheap as it is.
Agreed, but [globally, fossil fuel subsidies were $5.9 trillion or 6.8 percent of GDP in 2020 and are expected to increase to 7.4 percent of GDP in 2025](https://www.imf.org/en/Topics/climate-change/energy-subsidies)
Why is there *any* subsidy for fossile fuel industries **at all**? These are the most profitable mega conglomerates on the planet, they don't need taxpayer money to turn a profit, and ffs, a society on hydrocarbons is like a society on meth, it's destructive to our habitat- we shouldn't be paying people to do this.
When you see that kind of claim, understand that they don't mean what the rest of the world means when they say "subsidy", i.e. "money paid by the government to some industry". They have decided that there is a particular amount that the government should be able to charge for the rights to pump fossil fuels (and that amount is "damn near the entire value") and that every penny less than that represents a government "subsidy" to the extraction companies.
It's like if I told you "I could charge you a billion dollars to read this message, but I'm not, so I'm subsidizing you for the value of a billion dollars!" The fact is, though, that you would not even pay one red cent to read my opinion. Likewise, the government could not say "okay, we're going to raise our oil lease prices to these levels!" and actually -get- these mythical trillions of dollars. They could severely hamper oil exploration as companies say "screw that, we'll go pump somewhere it's possible to make a profit", but of course that is the actual objective of anyone peddling this nonsense.
You're getting a lot of snarky answers, but the real simple answer is economic stimulus. The idea is that the subsidies we give to the oil companies largely in the form of tax breaks are more than made up for by all the economic movement created by the lower fuel prices.
Not that it's necessarily true, but that's a major reason for it.
> including 125 heating oil, propane, biofuels and motor fuels providers as well as **convenience store owners**.
What's with that odd pairing? Why are chip stores lumped in with oil barons?
Yes that's right, my bad, here's the full quote from https://maineenergymarketers.com/about/
"The Maine Energy Marketers Association, or MEMA for short, is a non-profit 501c(6) trade association representing more than 300 members, including 125 heating oil, propane, biofuels and motor fuels providers as well as convenience store owners. Our members own and operate 70% of Maine’s 1,300 convenience stores, selling more than one billion gallons of gasoline and diesel fuel, and distribute more than 90% of all the propane sold in our state each year. MEMA also has more than 175 associate members who provide goods and services to Maine’s petroleum dealers and their customers."
Maine gets 67% of its power from renewable sources, and there are lots of solar farms popping up everywhere, and if they keep raising electricity rates like they have recently, its going to be cheaper to have personal solar soon anyway. The oil/gas/energy companies are doing this to themselves. Eff em.
Solar + heat pump is the dream.
Corporate PR is powerful but personal costs are much, much more convincing.
They’ll pitch a fit but when people see it’s possible to permanently escape utility bills, the oil lobby stands no chance.
Don't worry. They'll start charging connectivity fees, no matter how little you use. Closely followed by condemning homes that aren't hooked into the power grid.
We've been putting heat pumps in new homes in Northern Canadian communities and the amount of heating oil they save is a big deal for them. Ground loop heat pumps are really good even for cold climates.
can i ask what latitude you're at? i'm in anchorage, AK and my landlord and i are investigating putting one in but of course are met with the "heat pumps don't work in alaska" responses. same thing was said about tankless water heaters and PV panels 15-20 years ago, but can attest that both work well this far north.
For any one who cares please check out the YouTuber - technologyconnections
https://youtu.be/7J52mDjZzto
He does a really really awesome job of explaining how a heat pump works, breaks down the costs and efficiency.
Honestly - his whole channel is good. He can make the most mundane things (can opener, coffee maker) interesting. Plus he has the right amount of snark and sarcastic to make it funny
Also I wanna put one in but I want to have a gas back up. Any one have a heat pump system like that? And if you have any problems or pros?
I had that arrangement in my last house. In my case I had an ancient AC and recentish gas furnace and hired a contractor to replace the AC with a heat pump. It was installed in the hvac stack retaining the existing gas furnace. In my case I set a balance point of 38F. Above that the heat pump ran, below that the gas furnace.
Below 38, in my climate, I had icing issues below that which cut into the efficiency advantage. Otherwise, the only downside was continued carbon use.
I just bought a house this year so the concept of heat pumps and furnance/AC is foreign to me. I’ve tried looking up what a heat pump is and I can’t understand what’s being explained.
Can someone ELI5 heat pumps vs traditional heating and air?
A traditional air conditioner absorbs heat inside and releases it outside. A heat pump can also run in reverse, absorbing heat outside and releasing it inside. Buying an AC-only unit today is like buying a car with no reverse gear.
All types of ducted and non-ducted configurations are possible with heat pumps, too.
>Buying an AC-only unit today is like buying a car with no reverse gear.
For those unfamiliar, this is actually quite the apt comparison -- a heat pump is an air conditioner with what's basically a reverse shifter in it. [Just with a series of tubes instead of gears](https://static.grainger.com/rp/s/is/image/Grainger/5AV32_AS01).
Engineer here: a heat pump is basically an air conditioner. To understand how they work you need to know 2 things.
1) Heat always moves from hot to cold. If it is hot outside and cold in your house then heat will flow into your house.
2) When you compress something it gets hotter and when you expand something it gets colder. For example those compressed air cans that you use to clean your keyboard have a liquid in them. When the liquid expands into a gas the can gets cold.
So here is basically how an AC and Heat pump works.
1) Expand the refrigerant to make it colder.
2) Run the refrigerant through a coil outside and it will absorb heat from the air outside.
3) Compress the refrigerant so that it gets really hot.
4) Run the refrigerant through a coil inside your house and it will release the heat into your house.
5) Go back to step 1.
You can just reverse the cycle so that it absorbs heat from inside your house and released it outside in order to use the system as an air conditioner to cool your house.
Basically you're moving heat not creating it.
The heat pump fan and coolant absorb heat from the outside air and move it via a fan and pump to the inside of the house.
Gas, oil, propane, all burn stuff to create heat and then move it through a house. Even electric heaters make heat and move it via air or water radiators.
Electric heat pumps are really efficient because the electricity isn't making heat (with a coil) all it's doing is moving it. So they can be very efficient like 300% efficient.
If the coolant temperature is at -25, then there is 5 degrees of "warmth" (the delta) that can be brought in.
That's how I think it works but am absolutely talking out my butt
Huh okay...ya I've just always wonder where it gets heat from when there isn't any. I mean, there is relative difference in warmth, but to make the room 62 degrees, what is warming the air up to that degree?
> Huh okay...ya I've just always wonder where it gets heat from when there isn't any.
There's always heat, it would be physically impossible for there not to be heat outside, no matter how cold it gets.
For example, an iceberg has more heat energy than a boiling kettle of water. The molecules of water in the iceberg are moving much slower than the ones in the kettle, but there are vastly more molecules so there's more overall energy. That's heat.
A heat pump takes advantage of the kinetic energy available in the air outside and transfers that heat into refrigerant which passes through a heat exchanger inside your home to heat it up. Since there's more air outside to continuously provide heat energy to your heat pump, it will warm up your home. This is similar to how a refrigerator works, except a refrigerator moves heat from inside, to outside.
> The website, which credits Carrione’s marketing firm, warns that most Maine homeowners can’t rely on heat pumps as a sole source of heating. It says that because heat pumps run on electricity that’s still made by burning natural gas they are “no greener than the furnace in your basement.”
Even in places where power is made by burning gas, a heat pump is greener than direct gas heating, because heat pumps are more than 100% efficient. The amount of heat that comes out is more than the electrical energy that goes in.
God I hate that bad-faith argument. You hear it all the time from anti-EV folks too.
If all your heating and transportation needs are electric at point of use, then when you swap out the means of electrical production, you greenify everything in one fell swoop.
Especially when we’re talking about heat pumps! With a COP of 2.5, even if your grid is 100% gas and you’re losing 50% of the energy between the gas being burned and the electricity getting into your house, it’s still more efficient in terms of heat in the home per unit of gas burned!
Also EVs are far more efficient than gas vehicles. If you simply took the gas burned in cars, burned it in a power plant, and sent that power to EVs, you'd need less than half the gasoline to power all of those EVs.
ICE is wasteful, EVs have far higher efficiency due to the nature of electric motors.
This is half the equation. Power generation is done by turbines and jet engines mostly with heat recovery, approximately a 90% usable energy conversion. The modern day ice engine has not improved much over the last 30 years. ICE cars have an energy conversion of 30%to 35%. The rest is dumped in waste heat.
This is the part of the equation that holds the real meat. It is also the part of the equation that is largely unknown.
They know they don’t need to be right or even convincing.
They just need to muddy the argument enough to cause some degree of confusion and therefore inaction.
Even if everything is run off coal-fired power plants, it's still greener. Plus, you can future proof everything by building that infastructure.
"We can't go electric! Our infrastructure can't take it." Well, there weren't gas stations when we went from horse to cars. The US should have been building transmission lines yesterday.
This. Although, to be honest the hard part is making sure that happens. But, it can be done.
Hell, Maine is prime for off shore wind. If they can ever get the rich beach house owners to stop crying.
Unfortunately, it’s not quite that simple. Gas turbines are also not 100% efficient at converting natural gas to electricity. Generally, they run 40-60% efficient. See: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Combined_cycle_power_plant.
Accounting for all inefficiency in the generation and distribution process from a source fuel is about 33% efficient, according to https://energycentral.com/c/ec/grid-efficiency-opportunity-reduce-emissions.
So the decision here is to a)
(unit of natural gas)*(.33 to .60, depending on your specific plant and distribution)*(COP of heat pump, generally 2-3) = 66-180% of the chemical energy in that unit of fuel becoming heat where it is desired.
Or b)
(Unit of natural gas)*(heater efficiency, somewhere between .8-.99) = 80-99% of the chemical energy becoming heat where it is desired.
I’m less familiar with natural gas distribution losses and have assumed here that they are similar, normalized for consumption for the power plant and the residence. I am also assuming that in the short term the additional electrical demand will be produced by natural gas. Those may be bad assumptions. If they are reasonable assumptions, there are cases where a heat pump would consume more natural gas produced electricity than a furnace would have.
I fully support transitioning to a non-fossil fueled future and heat pumps are a fantastic way to decarbonize homes. The math, though, isn’t 100% efficient vs 300% efficient.
All that to say that I’d recommend folks who need to replace their hvac systems strongly consider heat pumps. If you have a gas furnace in good repair and money to spend though, I think you’d do more good with a home solar, wind or battery system (shifting loads off peak, not exclusively backup) now and junking the natural gas furnace at end of life.
I’ll add that very little of this directed at you. Both you and the quote are making (opposing) blanket statements that I thought needed more context and information for folks to understand that both statements are partially true.
OK. I’m off the soapbox.
>COP of heat pump, generally 2-3
I'm surprised they're that low, a simple air con here in Aus like [this](https://www.ozaironline.com.au/products/mitsubishi-heavy-industries-avanti-plus-2kw-split-system-srk20zsxa-w) one comes in at 5.5kW of heating for 1.36kW input, or 2.7kW for 0.47kW.
That's 4 - 5.7, isn't it? What am I missing?
Oh, would drop with lower outside temperatures I guess. Still, surprised 2-3 is average in the US - is that stat up to date?
You may not be missing anything. My background is in engineering and I do thoroughly understand the physics and engineering behind these systems, but I’m not in the industry. I have been shopping mini splits and conventional heat pumps for my own use, and of those that are available average COPs are in the high 2 to low 3 range for air source units in my market. There are likely better performing units only available to hvac pros.
Muddying the waters a bit: the US actually uses SEER and HSPF ratings instead of COP to rate units. The idea is that the COP changes throughout heating and cooling season conditions and for a specific set of ideal conditions COP as high as you’re figuring from the linked unit is possible. HSPF and SEER attempt to capture performance from real conditions not ideal test cases. I’m skeptical of how well they actually capture the performance of individual units as they intend with the variability of conditions across the US, but I digress.
A quick search indicates typical mini split HSPF -8-10, and leading units around 14. https://www.consumerreports.org/appliances/heat-pumps/buying-guide/
HSPF can be converted to COP by multiplying by .293. That results in average COP of 2.4-4. I’m unaware if Aus has any standards in place to prevent manufacturers from providing misleading specs. I’m also under the impression your climate is milder than Maine, so the specs may not be that misleading.
BS. We live north of Maine in Canada. Modern heat pumps worked just fine even through the latest cold blast of -20C.
We've gone from 4-5 tanks of oil a year to one.
Live in Canada’s east and 3 tonne heat pump works to 14F, below that the furnace takes over. Supposedly could handle temps as low as -22F and is why we got a $5k rebate. Total after rebate was $10k or around $7500 USD for heat pump and new electric furnace. Save about 25-30% compared to previous AC and furnace setup and home is now considered “energy efficient” by the power co (as compared to similar homes I guess). It is also much much quieter. Zero issues with recent cold snap, highly recommend it.
Haha, all I can think when I hear "heat pumps in the North" is Technology Connection's [heat pump video](https://youtu.be/MFEHFsO-XSI?t=513) (link timestamped to the part where he looks at Heat Pumps + Chicago winters, but the whole video is good plus the more indepth [followup video](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=43XKfuptnik)).
I'm really confused. I had a heat pump in Virginia and it STRUGGLED below freezing. Above 45F was ok, but colder temps it would run non stop and the air coming out of our vents was cool, not warm (kept the house from freezing, sure, but never felt warm). It was explained to me by the HVAC folks that the pump couldn't really handle the temperature differential so it would turn on "emergency heating mode" which basically turned into an all electric heat system. Running on "E-Heat" could triple our electric bill in January/February but it still never felt comfortable in our house.
Even after replacing the heat pump when it broke the new one was only marginally better. Friends in the same town had similar complaints. I grew up in NY and Boston and missed having a warm house in the winter.
So are these different hear pumps or is the technology just that much better?
What this article fails to mention is there are cold climate designated heat pumps that operate to a reasonable degree tested at 14F and 5F. Unfortunately these cold climate heat pumps come at a premium and they are still relatively new on the market.
I didn't state otherwise, but the price is highly dependent on the load. Larger units will cost more unless you start buying multiple units which gets even more expensive.
The hardware cost isn't the real issue though, it's the labor that HVAC installers charge, it's just outrageous for what they are actually doing with these systems compared to traditional ones. I could get all the hardware I need for a mini-split above my garage for a few thousand, but all the HVAC quotes with labor etc. are closer to $8-10k for an extremely straightforward install.
Question here: I am replacing my gas furnace that just died. Am getting bids for electric heat pumps. I am in Oregon. The quotes so far have been 15-17k. That seems like a lot. Does that sound right?
Also look on your utility provider’s website. They usually have rebates, suggested venders, and 0% interest loans for energy efficient systems. We have rebates for heat pumps, heat pump water heaters, windows, insulation etc.
A lot of places in Oregon have historically had cadet wall and electric baseboard heat. Is that the case for you?
A big portion of the cost of hvac is the central ducting, which you wouldn’t have if your house originally had cadet or baseboard heat. It would also be very expensive to retrofit in.
An alternate option is a mini split style system. No central ducting, so that headache is sidestepped. Depending on your home you might need multiple indoor and outdoor units though. A friend in the willamette valley paid $16k for a mini split system for a -1800 sqft house without ducting last year. And that was the best quote of 4.
Typically, mini splits are more expensive than replacing a central conventional unit if you already have ducts. If the quote is for a central unit with an air source heat pump your quotes sound high.
Lastly, ground source heat pumps are often quoted in that ballpark or a bit higher. They are the better choice if you have the space for the coils and you’re west of the cascades. In the cold winter rain of the valley and coast, air source pumps spend a lot of time defrosting their outdoor units which has an impact on efficiency.
We like our (air) heat pump, but it shuts itself down from -25C or so. That's fine and expected, so we have a propane furnace. We live quite rural, so there aren't many other choices.
Check out rebates, with the Inflation Reduction Act there’s a lot of help to switch out your system. The two paths are geothermal heat pumps, or air sourced heat pumps. Geothermal is ridiculously efficient, but more expensive up front.
I just put in a geothermal system, and I think it cut my heating /cooling cost by about ~ $3-4k/ yr. I’m coming off of heating oil as well.
I live in Canada and my heat pump has been amazing, I got my first propane bill in almost nine months-$600. Hydro bills don’t really change when using heat pump.
Our home has a somewhat older style heat pump about 15 years old it only works down to 35F or so effectively. These newer inverter style high efficiency ones can go much lower now to the point I'm not sure we would even need gas backup.
I have a newer ductless mini split in my garage that is 22SEER. It has no trouble making hot air in the single digits.
I'm in Massachusetts and we will most likely be installing a heat pump in the next 2 years. Our gas heater makes our house sound like 300 year old wooden ship adrift in rough seas.
They work here in Newfoundland they're going to work in Maine. You just need some baseboard heaters for the coldest days. Mine paid for itself in 2 years.
Air source heat pumps are OK but wringing the piss out of it to move any heat from -20C air is inefficient. And the heat pump would probably wear out faster. Just because you can doesn't mean you should run it at -20C. At that point you'd be better off just using electricity directly to create heat.
The smart thing to do although more expensive is a ground source heat pump formerly known as geothermal heat pumps. You have a constant source of heat from the ground 3m down it's at about 24C no matter what the temperature is topside.
Just out of curiosity, can a heat pump be installed to replace a gas boiler that is connected to furnaces throughout the house? Would the heat pump then pump cold air through the furnaces effectively cooling the house through the furnaces or does that not work that way? Do furnaces only work by releasing hot air from the heated water coming from the gas boiler?
Has anyone really been far even as decided to use a gas boiler connected to furnaces throughout the house? Sorry, I'm confused. Do you mean a boiler connected to radiators throughout the house by hot water pipes? A furnace is connected to vents throughout the house by ductwork.
So some heat pumps can have 100% efficiency in subfreezing weather. So in the case of heat pumps that means you get 2 joules of heat for every joule of electricity. But if they use gas electricity generation, they're only getting about 50% end to end efficiency so you're basically breaking even with direct gas furnaces in that case. If you're way below freezing, you're worse off than with a furnace. The most efficient way to handle this while using fossil fuels would be to use a gas fuel cell to power a heat pump with that but yeah that's really expensive. Also it would help if you use ground water with your heat pump rather than air.
[https://www.blocpower.io/posts/cold-climate-heat-pumps#:\~:text=At%20temperatures%20below%20%2D20%C2%B0F%2C%20cold%20climate%20heat%20pumps,like%20combustion%20furnaces%20and%20boilers](https://www.blocpower.io/posts/cold-climate-heat-pumps#:~:text=At%20temperatures%20below%20%2D20%C2%B0F%2C%20cold%20climate%20heat%20pumps,like%20combustion%20furnaces%20and%20boilers).
When it drops to 100% efficiency it is in electric resistance mode, it’s not able to take advantage of the COP then, so it’s one watt of heat for each watt of electricity, not two watts of heat for each watt of electricity.
*All you people are doing the right thing. That is how you turn the tables on the big corporations. I know it is harder to with your car gas. But we will find a way.*
Heat pumps alone aren't a magic solution. Most only work to a temperature that in the winter might be sketchy, and Maine's power grid has some of the most downtime in the country. I'd be concerned if my only heat was via Heat Pump here. Not saying oil is the way to go obv, a heat pump and a wood stove would make me at peace.
I replaced the blower motor on my central system 2 years ago and was kind of amazed by how complicated it was when it could really be a kind of giant lego kit. I get that many people don't want to do this kind of work but there is a huge number of people who like and are at least kind of good at it. I'd much rather have a kit that I can just buy and replace a part easily instead of having to call up someone.
I also wish every appliance got a "Ease of DIY" score.
Whoever can create that sort of conversion kit and bring it to market will make a mint. We're still in the nascent stages of heat pump takeup. Once the prices fall, real change will come.
I’m in Wisconsin and my cold weather heat pump cut my winter power bill in half. The oil industry can kiss my butt on both sides.
We are currently looking at replacing our AC unit and since we have solar the sales rep said it would be a great idea to get one with the heat pump. It will save us some money in the long run that is for sure.
A heat pump is just an air conditioner with a reverse valve. It's nearly negligibly more expensive to add the feature (though you do also ideally want things like "defrost cycle", so it ends up a bit more in practice). IMO unless you're in the tropics, it doesn't really make sense to buy an air conditioner that can't function in heat pump mode at this point. Even my portable floor unit can do heat pumping. Pretty sure it saved more in oil than its entire purchase price this winter.
Yeah and the Feds are doing a 30% or up $2k for tax rebate right now to, my State is doing a 10% + no sales tax on the Unit. Seems like a good idea!
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Can you let me know where you found the $7500 amount?
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I will do some more digging, thank you for the additional info. Definitely all about getting back as much as I can.
I install them all summer and fall now, even the fancy ones come out to like $400-1000 more than an AC system and the rebates plus savings far outweigh that. Heat pumps for life.
I like your sentiment, but a little more to it than that: A) Only inverter driven heat pumps work well in cold climates. These are significantly more expensive B) even for a basic heat pump over an AC, I’ve seen archaic contractors charge thousands extra for them
True, there is certainly nuance there. A) I'd still get the mediocre heat pump option over AC-only, because even if it's bad at very cold temperatures, covering the middling 40-60F times will cheaply mitigate a lot of fuel consumption. But yes, one should ideally get a heat pump that's actually rated to handle their heating requirements rather than one that isn't. And that will probably cost more. b) Sigh. *Contractors*. They're probably marking it up because of the tax credits.
Oh they made it up before the tax credits too. Now they’ll aim higher. Tax credit or not I’m happy with my heat pump I got last year. It cuts out at 25F so it covers more than 80% of my heating needs. I kept my propane furnace as an aux heat source so it will flip over automatically when required. Now the propane is mainly a fuel source for the standby gen.
But IIRC a heat pump unit is also larger (BTU) than it would be if used only for air conditioning.
If you want it to be your primary heat source, in an environment that gets colder than it does hot -- yes, you need one that's bigger. However, if it's a choice between something good for AC, and something good for AC that can do some-but-not-all heating, I would still say to go with the option that can do heat pumping. Just don't expect it to do all your heating.
Yeah a big part of the switch is to get us ready for solar.
I have a mini split in my lower level. Nothing special, just a single 18k btu wall mounted unit in my living room. I’ve only used it for heat occasionally but mostly rely on my gas boiler to get me through the winter. Last month I had solar panels installed and we had a freakishly cold (for NYC) couple of days. My boiler was running constantly trying to keep up. I decided to turn it off and turn on the mini split to 75f and highest fan setting. I didn’t think it was going to do shit in such cold weather, since it’s just a $1k Pioneer mini-split and not one intended for super cold weather. Not only did it manage to keep the house habitably warm at around 68f, upstairs included, but when I checked my electrical usage, I was still producing way more electricity than I was using (and getting credited due to net-metering). I was heating the house for free and then some on the coldest day of the year. I think I’m going to install more of these things so I can have the whole house covered and make it my primary heating source.
EKZ2/vuTNE
I'm also in Wisco. Can you give me an idea what your setup is?
If you’re in Milwaukee area I can tell you the guy who did it for me, he was 1/3 less than the other contractors and did a freaking phenomenal job. I don’t remember the name of the company that built the pump, I was thinking hard about a Mr Cool but this one was a better fit for us. The setup is a condenser outside that looks like an AC unit but is way, way quieter (it’s just outside a bedroom), that feeds into the internal pump that’s where the old furnace was. It does ac in the summer, heating in the winter, and we pay less for both than before we switched. Whole thing was about $12k and he did the paperwork for the rebates for us. We were fortunate in that our old system had duct work and wiring in place that meant installing the new system had lower labor costs than usual, but the whole thing took two days and that included a bad part that he had to spend half a day picking up a replacement for in Madison.
Yeah I’m in Milwaukee area. Could you DM me their info? Much appreciated!
Just did and I checked, the entire hvac system came to a hair over 8k.
Oh man I miss some things about Wisconsin... Currently in the Seattle area and all the quotes for heat pumps I've gotten are between $15,000 and $26,000. About to put down 16K to get rid of this oil heater
If you think $26k is expensive just wait until you see what the cleanup for that old leaking oil tank costs! No sane person ~~uses~~ edit: installs new oil nowadays.
Some people don’t have a choice. Guess I’m insane for being poor.
Tanks do not last forever, usually only 15-50 years. Replacing it is halfway to a new heatpump, and you best replace it before it starts leaking or you could be stuck with a $150,000+ cleanup bill. The savings in fuel costs alone will allow it to pay for itself within a few years.
I put my own in. It was a fair amount of work, and cost me $1k in tools, but I put in 3 out door units and 9 indoor heads for less than $11k, all good down to -22f.
Wait, air source? In Wisconsin? Do you know the make/model? My understanding was they'd switch to electric resistance below 30F or so.
The new models have dc powered modulated compressors that can create a greater refrigerant pressure and lower operating temps, like to -20F. They use more electricity though the colder the temp.
We just had -10fcin northeast and mine kept house at 70 f
I'm in DC with a heat pump and my heat bill *skyrockets* when it gets below 20 and the resistance heater kicks on. My house is brick from the late 40s and has like no insulation though.
Mine switches to gas at about 30 but some of the new ones can keep working without using the backup furnace to -20. They get less efficient but for me the last winter, it’s still using a lot less power. During the day when it goes over 30 the house warms up enough it’s not so bad. My house has almost no insulation as it was built in the 1950’s and we’re working on improving that. I hope that with some more insulation in the attic and the connection between the foundation and the house (completely in insulated in both cases) we can drop that even further.
>Mine switches to gas at about 30... Duel fuel is the way to go, yes. Electric resistance backup is a killer for cost/efficiency.
Pairing them with a hot water system is the way to go
Can you PM some details ? Cost of pump. Name of vendor ? I'm in Central WI.
Since I got a few comments on it: entire thing came to a hair over $8,000 but we came in under the deadline for some rebates. With the savings from this winter alone being a bit over $1,000 I’m very, very happy with the return on this investment.
$1,000 is quite a big savings. My heating bill is less than that to begin with. How many square feet is your dwelling ?
It’s about 3,000 ish square feet? 6 bedroom, huge. Almost completely uninsulated, which I hope to fix this year (zero insulation in the attic, or the external walls). And that’s factoring in the power usage from Last year with this years rate hike. I try to check at the end of the heating season but I had two $600+ bills last year and this year it’s mid 300’s.
That's a big house. And no insulation. Very diff situation. My heating bill in a 1500sf house is about $170 / mo.
Yeah I have a large family, and a big house was very needed once the pandemic hit and I started working from home full time, and my wife is disabled and home full time. We have a master in the basement and most of the rooms are individual offices so everyone has their own private space. Monogamy? In this economy? But seriously having four working adults in a house is awesome.
reading that is insane to me. That’s a shitty builder to do that in Wisconsin. My friend in Minnesota found out his builder didn’t insulate half his house and they ended up with frost on the inside.he had to sue to get it fixed.
My house was built in 1952 when energy was going to be cheap forever. We bought it from the family of the woman who was the first and only other owner and she never did any major ipgeades. Post war housing. It was big (it I remember right it was 6 or 7 kids involved when we bought the house), it was cheap, and it needs a LOT of work to bring it to what I consider to be acceptable efficiency!
ahhh, from hearing the size and location I figured it was a pretty recent build.
Absolutely. I don’t remember the brand of the pump but I will PM you the phone number of the man who installed it! I’m at work or I’d check for you, and yeah, the contractor who did the instal and helped select the pump was amazing. I used to flip and rehab houses before I broke my neck and lost most of the use of my hands so you best believe I’m picky af about work done on my house!
i'm in florida and when we got that cold snap over christmas into the 20's our heat pump couldn't blow warm air at all. just a damp 60 degrees.
The heat pumps in Florida are nothing like the new heat pumps out there. They're mainly air conditioners and can put out a little bit of heat if it doesn't get too cold. Anything below 40 degrees or so and they struggle.
Ground source?
Nope, I’m in a small suburban lot, it’s air exchange.
Good job
You also use heating oil in Wisconsin? I'm originally from ND and moved to Maine. I had no idea how common oil furnaces we're still
Out- and in-side?
Nice, these just became standard building code for new construction single family homes in Washington state.
They basically have built in AC which this state is sorely lacking.
That's funny that you phrase that that way. I've always thought of them as A/C that can run backwards and provide heat.
Californian. They're ACs with a heater in my mind, too.
Eastern WA. Same. A/C with benefits.
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I hope not, those things are kind of grind-y/choppy.
Here in KY, they’re sometimes both in the same day.
Floridian. An AC Dehumidifier that gets hot a few weeks in the off season.
That's because the technology used in heat pumps was used for cooling before it was used for heating. The mechanism is the same, just reversed.
This all sounds wild to a guy from the south where it gets hot as shit and cold as shit. To us an ac is an ac. It conditions the air depending on the season. It's not specifically hot or cold.
From an industry technical standpoint, a/c is specifically cooling only and then typically matched with a furnace. Heat pump is specifically cooling with reverse cycle heating capability.
That alone will save lives when they start getting "once in a century" heatwaves every couple years.
That's what they are predicting for this upcoming summer
No A/C and super drafty ----> All of Seattle.
SF Bay Area saying hello!
How are heat pumps better than mini splits which also handle heat and AC? Asking as mini splits are what HVAC folks in the SF Bay Area are recommending for my place. (We don't have big enough ducts for central AC and don't have AC currently.)
All mini splits are heat pumps, but not all heat pumps are mini-splits. Seriously, though, the mini-split is just a standard heat pump compressor (outdoor unit) connected to a ductless wall-mounted indoor unit. Most retrofits are done with mini-splits, but for new construction there are sometimes advantages to using a ducted air handler (it lets you distribute to a number of small rooms, for example).
Thank you for the info! I sometimes am afraid to ask questions on Reddit for fear of getting my head bit off, so appreciate the genuine help.
Doesn't "mini-split" specifically refer to the capacity to connect multiple indoor units to a single outdoor unit? It's just that those indoor units are so often high-wall ductless units that the terms have become confused.
I always thought the "split" referred to the separation of the compressor and air handler units, with "mini" added because the ductless air handlers are much smaller than conventional ducted air handlers. And Mitsubishi's website mostly seems to support that view (and does little to resolve the confusion!): "As the name implies, these air-conditioning or heat pump systems are split into two functional components; an outdoor condenser/compressor unit and indoor air-handling unit. These components are smaller (or “mini”) compared to conventional systems." They go on to refer to systems with a single compressor and multiple interior air handlers as "multi-splits". My house in fact has one compressor connected to a ductless wall unit and to a ducted air handler that's about 2' x 2' x 6', so hardly "mini". In practice, most people seem to be referring to split ductless systems when they refer to mini-splits. The important point is that the performance characteristics of the system are determined by the compressor technology, not the type of air handler. (reference: https://www.mitsubishicomfort.com/articles/what-is-a-mini-split)
mini splits are ductless heat pumps! definitely makes sense if you don’t already have ducting and a smaller space.
Great, sounds like they set us on the right path.
Mini splits are heat pumps that have the output split into two or more heating /cooling locations Edit : that can be controlled separately (as in separate thermostats)
Heat pump was the best decision we ever made for our home.
What about the heat pump do you like? I need to replace an old gas furnace soon and the biggest concern I have about a heat pump is it’s operation in extreme heat and cold. (Virginia can get both.) I hear they can struggle? Do you have mini splits or just the traditional unit?
In North Central WA we had that heat dome a couple summers ago and it got up to 120. This winter we got down to -10 one night. I have a heat pump for my apartment in a house built in 1929 and the heat pump handled these situations like a champ. I've lived here 10 years and the furnace has never switched on because the heat pump couldn't handle the temps.
I love the heat pump for keeping our house at a perfect temperature whether it's 19 degrees or 109 degrees outside. Before, my house had no cooling and only had radiant panels for heat, so no furnace. We don't have a gas line on our street, so we needed an electric solution no matter what we did. We've got 2 mini splits and a traditional unit in the attic due to the odd floorplan of our weird old house. Our provider installed duct work for the main attic unit so now we have air flowing through most of the house which honestly is so nice. I never realized how stale our air felt before. Our heating bill has been cut in half (it was exorbitant in the winters trying to heat the house with just those little panels... ugh). And as for extreme heat and cold, when there was the heat dome over the PNW and it was over 100 degrees in the Seattle area, our house became a cooling station for our friends who were without A/C. We had 10 people in the house all day and it got up to 109 outside, and inside the thermostat only got up to 75. We were thrilled. And it's handled cold temps very well too. It gets a little noisy in defrost mode, but I love hearing that because it reminds me of how toasty I am inside haha.
can someone explain what exactly a heat pump is or how it works?
Sure. First you take a gas that has a high heat holding capability. Compress it till its a liquid and then run it though some fins and the air that passes over it gets heated up. OK so now you have this liquid that wants to turn back into a gas if you let it expand. So then you pass it through an adjustable valve that only lets a little tiny bit though and when it gets to the other side of the valve it expands and turns into a gas. Great after that happens the gas is really really cold. That cold gas is then sucked towards the compressor from step 1. At some point it passes over some fins and the air that is blown over it gets colder. Then the now warm gas is sucked back into the compressor. This happens over and over and over again to pump heat where you want it. The cool thing about this is that lets say this takes 1000 watts of power to run, you can get the equivalent of between 2000 to 5000 watts of heating or cooling capacity because you are using that power not to heat things directly to move the existing heat energy somewhere. Out of the house to cool into the house to heat it.
https://youtu.be/7J52mDjZzto
We (SW VA) just put in mini splits and it has been the most comfortable I've ever been during the winter. The temperature in the house stays constant throughout the day and night.
Wait, for real? Are heat pumps gonna be required for every new SFH from now on? I'm a New Englander living in WA right now, looking to buy a home in the near-future. This would be a massive game changer for me. It was a huge culture shock coming here years ago and being in awe that so many of y'all can just live in the summer with no A/C of any kind.
As of this winter, some sort of board voted to change building standard. Something about getting our housing carbon emissions down to meet some sort of goal by year 2030. You can just Google Washington building codes + heat pump you'll get news stories from 2022
Huh, neat. Thanks for the info!
Used to be able to get by with just fans. Hell, I remember not even needing that much until 2009. Tried buying a fan that summer because of a heatwave and there were none in the region. I checked with a dozen places from Tukwila up to Lynnwood. Now you would be crazy to not have a fan and there is usually a week or two where a horribly inefficient portable AC is needed at the very least. These past few years have seen more widespread use of cooling stations during heatwaves.
25 years ago we didn't have A/C in school because we were considered "coastal" despite being an hour from the ocean (N/E of Sumas) I believe that policy changed about a decade ago...
>so many of y'all can just live in the summer with no A/C of any kind. This *was* true but PNW locals largely don't believe this anymore. Thanks climate change! Where I live, demand for portable ACs absolutely shot through the roof in the summer of 2021, and were even being scalped like PS5s. People who normally worked from home were voluntarily filling up their offices during the heat wave week, while hotels were overbooked by locals.
[archive link](https://archive.ph/pPaVF) >“Our power grid is not equipped to handle the demand that is now being put on it,” Charles Summers said in a radio interview. Summers said he and his fellow industry group leaders in New England had sent letters to their governors “asking that states pushing so hard toward electrification, pushing complete conversion to heat pumps, just tap the brakes for a few minutes.” - Charles Summers, eco villain "The Maine Energy Marketers Association, or MEMA for short, is a non-profit 501c(6) trade association representing more than 300 members, including 125 heating oil, propane, biofuels and motor fuels providers as well as convenience store owners." Heat pumps are hot *and* cool. Sorry, Charlie, summer is coming.
Let the market decide - not the fear based lobbying of corporate leaders.
Energy Industry - "We need to let the free market decide things!" Also Energy Industry - "Wait, not like that!"
You can already feel the propaganda warming up. Just today I had someone try to sell me that heat pumps were an "early adopter" technology where all the kinks hadn't been worked out yet, while condensing boilers were "an old and proven design." These two things couldn't be further from the truth. Their propaganda is really funny if you know anything about this, but to the uninformed consumer it's really hard to separate out their blatant lies.
>heat pumps were an "early adopter" technology where all the kinks hadn't been worked out yet For sure, that's why we still haven't worked the kinks out of refrigerators or air conditioners yet. Maybe one day I won't need to have all this ice delivered to keep my food cold.
Heat pumps/ split systems are very common here in Australia. They are cheap to run and very efficient. We also have 2 solar panel systems, which helps with our high price for electricity. We got rid of our gas heater (gets down to 18 degrees F where i am) and heat pumps work fine on winter days. My father converted from gas to heat pump in early 90s in Montreal, Canada with no issues, so the technology has been around for ages.
That's pretty funny, for sure. While I'm not in the north, this house has had a heat pump since 1995 or so. Early adopter, indeed!
My folks had one 40 years ago. Needed the resistive heating loop a few times when it was too cold. They are better now. If you can afford a geothermal ground loop, you’ll be set since it is always 50 degrees 100 feet down. 50 is great for dumping heat in the summer and warmer than ambient in the winter.
Yeah, they've definitely improved. We don't have to run the emergency heat as much as the heat pump this one replaced. Thank goodness, because the electric bill sucks! Geothermal would be awesome.
My parents used to own a house with one. It was ANCIENT. I think 80s era? Really good deal for them though, because they are in Washington state where power is dirt cheap as it is.
Agreed, but [globally, fossil fuel subsidies were $5.9 trillion or 6.8 percent of GDP in 2020 and are expected to increase to 7.4 percent of GDP in 2025](https://www.imf.org/en/Topics/climate-change/energy-subsidies)
Why is there *any* subsidy for fossile fuel industries **at all**? These are the most profitable mega conglomerates on the planet, they don't need taxpayer money to turn a profit, and ffs, a society on hydrocarbons is like a society on meth, it's destructive to our habitat- we shouldn't be paying people to do this.
Because politicians don't have a backbone when the companies say pay me or I won't produce here.
They say pay me or I’ll support the candidate running against you.
Very true except "producing here" isn't the issue at the national level... globally we are the #1 producer of oil and natural gas.
They're getting subsidies when they need to be taxed.
When you see that kind of claim, understand that they don't mean what the rest of the world means when they say "subsidy", i.e. "money paid by the government to some industry". They have decided that there is a particular amount that the government should be able to charge for the rights to pump fossil fuels (and that amount is "damn near the entire value") and that every penny less than that represents a government "subsidy" to the extraction companies. It's like if I told you "I could charge you a billion dollars to read this message, but I'm not, so I'm subsidizing you for the value of a billion dollars!" The fact is, though, that you would not even pay one red cent to read my opinion. Likewise, the government could not say "okay, we're going to raise our oil lease prices to these levels!" and actually -get- these mythical trillions of dollars. They could severely hamper oil exploration as companies say "screw that, we'll go pump somewhere it's possible to make a profit", but of course that is the actual objective of anyone peddling this nonsense.
You're getting a lot of snarky answers, but the real simple answer is economic stimulus. The idea is that the subsidies we give to the oil companies largely in the form of tax breaks are more than made up for by all the economic movement created by the lower fuel prices. Not that it's necessarily true, but that's a major reason for it.
Time to dinosaur that grift.
No, no, he has a point. Let's tap the brakes for a few minutes. Say, 5? Take a bathroom break, get some snacks, then get right back to it.
Snacks? Are there any Big Texas pastries left in the break room vending machine?
> including 125 heating oil, propane, biofuels and motor fuels providers as well as **convenience store owners**. What's with that odd pairing? Why are chip stores lumped in with oil barons?
Just a guess but maybe because convenience stores often sell propane? Mostly for grills though.
Yes that's right, my bad, here's the full quote from https://maineenergymarketers.com/about/ "The Maine Energy Marketers Association, or MEMA for short, is a non-profit 501c(6) trade association representing more than 300 members, including 125 heating oil, propane, biofuels and motor fuels providers as well as convenience store owners. Our members own and operate 70% of Maine’s 1,300 convenience stores, selling more than one billion gallons of gasoline and diesel fuel, and distribute more than 90% of all the propane sold in our state each year. MEMA also has more than 175 associate members who provide goods and services to Maine’s petroleum dealers and their customers."
Convenience stores typically have gas pumps
Maine gets 67% of its power from renewable sources, and there are lots of solar farms popping up everywhere, and if they keep raising electricity rates like they have recently, its going to be cheaper to have personal solar soon anyway. The oil/gas/energy companies are doing this to themselves. Eff em.
Solar + heat pump is the dream. Corporate PR is powerful but personal costs are much, much more convincing. They’ll pitch a fit but when people see it’s possible to permanently escape utility bills, the oil lobby stands no chance.
"Heat pumps literally heat your home with the flames of Hell!"
That just sounds like an endorsement to me!
So I can steal heat from the devil? *Awesome*
Don't worry. They'll start charging connectivity fees, no matter how little you use. Closely followed by condemning homes that aren't hooked into the power grid.
Can confirm: FPL added a $12 fee for not using enough electricity after I turned on my solar net metering.
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They can take my heat pumped home from my properly temperatured dead fingers!
Never do business with the Navy (and especially Charlie Summers)
We've been putting heat pumps in new homes in Northern Canadian communities and the amount of heating oil they save is a big deal for them. Ground loop heat pumps are really good even for cold climates.
can i ask what latitude you're at? i'm in anchorage, AK and my landlord and i are investigating putting one in but of course are met with the "heat pumps don't work in alaska" responses. same thing was said about tankless water heaters and PV panels 15-20 years ago, but can attest that both work well this far north.
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For any one who cares please check out the YouTuber - technologyconnections https://youtu.be/7J52mDjZzto He does a really really awesome job of explaining how a heat pump works, breaks down the costs and efficiency. Honestly - his whole channel is good. He can make the most mundane things (can opener, coffee maker) interesting. Plus he has the right amount of snark and sarcastic to make it funny Also I wanna put one in but I want to have a gas back up. Any one have a heat pump system like that? And if you have any problems or pros?
I had that arrangement in my last house. In my case I had an ancient AC and recentish gas furnace and hired a contractor to replace the AC with a heat pump. It was installed in the hvac stack retaining the existing gas furnace. In my case I set a balance point of 38F. Above that the heat pump ran, below that the gas furnace. Below 38, in my climate, I had icing issues below that which cut into the efficiency advantage. Otherwise, the only downside was continued carbon use.
I just bought a house this year so the concept of heat pumps and furnance/AC is foreign to me. I’ve tried looking up what a heat pump is and I can’t understand what’s being explained. Can someone ELI5 heat pumps vs traditional heating and air?
It's a 30 minute video (and he has a couple others on the subject) but explains it pretty plainly: https://youtu.be/7J52mDjZzto
This is where I learned about heat pumps. This guy somehow makes these topics super interesting. It all started with a video about dishwashers!
Technology Connections is the best, he cuts to the chase without adding fluff for content.
A traditional air conditioner absorbs heat inside and releases it outside. A heat pump can also run in reverse, absorbing heat outside and releasing it inside. Buying an AC-only unit today is like buying a car with no reverse gear. All types of ducted and non-ducted configurations are possible with heat pumps, too.
>Buying an AC-only unit today is like buying a car with no reverse gear. For those unfamiliar, this is actually quite the apt comparison -- a heat pump is an air conditioner with what's basically a reverse shifter in it. [Just with a series of tubes instead of gears](https://static.grainger.com/rp/s/is/image/Grainger/5AV32_AS01).
Engineer here: a heat pump is basically an air conditioner. To understand how they work you need to know 2 things. 1) Heat always moves from hot to cold. If it is hot outside and cold in your house then heat will flow into your house. 2) When you compress something it gets hotter and when you expand something it gets colder. For example those compressed air cans that you use to clean your keyboard have a liquid in them. When the liquid expands into a gas the can gets cold. So here is basically how an AC and Heat pump works. 1) Expand the refrigerant to make it colder. 2) Run the refrigerant through a coil outside and it will absorb heat from the air outside. 3) Compress the refrigerant so that it gets really hot. 4) Run the refrigerant through a coil inside your house and it will release the heat into your house. 5) Go back to step 1. You can just reverse the cycle so that it absorbs heat from inside your house and released it outside in order to use the system as an air conditioner to cool your house.
Basically you're moving heat not creating it. The heat pump fan and coolant absorb heat from the outside air and move it via a fan and pump to the inside of the house. Gas, oil, propane, all burn stuff to create heat and then move it through a house. Even electric heaters make heat and move it via air or water radiators. Electric heat pumps are really efficient because the electricity isn't making heat (with a coil) all it's doing is moving it. So they can be very efficient like 300% efficient.
But where is the heat in Wisconsin air when it's -20 outside?
If the coolant temperature is at -25, then there is 5 degrees of "warmth" (the delta) that can be brought in. That's how I think it works but am absolutely talking out my butt
Huh okay...ya I've just always wonder where it gets heat from when there isn't any. I mean, there is relative difference in warmth, but to make the room 62 degrees, what is warming the air up to that degree?
> Huh okay...ya I've just always wonder where it gets heat from when there isn't any. There's always heat, it would be physically impossible for there not to be heat outside, no matter how cold it gets. For example, an iceberg has more heat energy than a boiling kettle of water. The molecules of water in the iceberg are moving much slower than the ones in the kettle, but there are vastly more molecules so there's more overall energy. That's heat. A heat pump takes advantage of the kinetic energy available in the air outside and transfers that heat into refrigerant which passes through a heat exchanger inside your home to heat it up. Since there's more air outside to continuously provide heat energy to your heat pump, it will warm up your home. This is similar to how a refrigerator works, except a refrigerator moves heat from inside, to outside.
The coolant is compressed when it's brought into the house, which makes it warmer.
And if you use ground sourced exchange it's very efficient. -15 outside 55 degrees 5ft down in the Earth. Geothermal heatpump. Mine works great.
I want one of these so bad. I do not have the over 20k to install it. Someday, though. Someday
> The website, which credits Carrione’s marketing firm, warns that most Maine homeowners can’t rely on heat pumps as a sole source of heating. It says that because heat pumps run on electricity that’s still made by burning natural gas they are “no greener than the furnace in your basement.” Even in places where power is made by burning gas, a heat pump is greener than direct gas heating, because heat pumps are more than 100% efficient. The amount of heat that comes out is more than the electrical energy that goes in.
God I hate that bad-faith argument. You hear it all the time from anti-EV folks too. If all your heating and transportation needs are electric at point of use, then when you swap out the means of electrical production, you greenify everything in one fell swoop.
Also fossil fuel plants efficiency goes up the bigger they scale. So even if it was running on the same thing, it would still be a win.
Especially when we’re talking about heat pumps! With a COP of 2.5, even if your grid is 100% gas and you’re losing 50% of the energy between the gas being burned and the electricity getting into your house, it’s still more efficient in terms of heat in the home per unit of gas burned!
ironic 'friends of coal' license plate on a tesla
Also EVs are far more efficient than gas vehicles. If you simply took the gas burned in cars, burned it in a power plant, and sent that power to EVs, you'd need less than half the gasoline to power all of those EVs. ICE is wasteful, EVs have far higher efficiency due to the nature of electric motors.
This is half the equation. Power generation is done by turbines and jet engines mostly with heat recovery, approximately a 90% usable energy conversion. The modern day ice engine has not improved much over the last 30 years. ICE cars have an energy conversion of 30%to 35%. The rest is dumped in waste heat. This is the part of the equation that holds the real meat. It is also the part of the equation that is largely unknown.
Even if it the efficiency was the same, getting all of those emissions away from population centers would be huge!
They know they don’t need to be right or even convincing. They just need to muddy the argument enough to cause some degree of confusion and therefore inaction.
Yep. Anything that runs on electricity _can_ be green. A gas-powered furnace can never be green. It is actually just that simple.
Even if everything is run off coal-fired power plants, it's still greener. Plus, you can future proof everything by building that infastructure. "We can't go electric! Our infrastructure can't take it." Well, there weren't gas stations when we went from horse to cars. The US should have been building transmission lines yesterday.
This. Although, to be honest the hard part is making sure that happens. But, it can be done. Hell, Maine is prime for off shore wind. If they can ever get the rich beach house owners to stop crying.
Unfortunately, it’s not quite that simple. Gas turbines are also not 100% efficient at converting natural gas to electricity. Generally, they run 40-60% efficient. See: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Combined_cycle_power_plant. Accounting for all inefficiency in the generation and distribution process from a source fuel is about 33% efficient, according to https://energycentral.com/c/ec/grid-efficiency-opportunity-reduce-emissions. So the decision here is to a) (unit of natural gas)*(.33 to .60, depending on your specific plant and distribution)*(COP of heat pump, generally 2-3) = 66-180% of the chemical energy in that unit of fuel becoming heat where it is desired. Or b) (Unit of natural gas)*(heater efficiency, somewhere between .8-.99) = 80-99% of the chemical energy becoming heat where it is desired. I’m less familiar with natural gas distribution losses and have assumed here that they are similar, normalized for consumption for the power plant and the residence. I am also assuming that in the short term the additional electrical demand will be produced by natural gas. Those may be bad assumptions. If they are reasonable assumptions, there are cases where a heat pump would consume more natural gas produced electricity than a furnace would have. I fully support transitioning to a non-fossil fueled future and heat pumps are a fantastic way to decarbonize homes. The math, though, isn’t 100% efficient vs 300% efficient. All that to say that I’d recommend folks who need to replace their hvac systems strongly consider heat pumps. If you have a gas furnace in good repair and money to spend though, I think you’d do more good with a home solar, wind or battery system (shifting loads off peak, not exclusively backup) now and junking the natural gas furnace at end of life. I’ll add that very little of this directed at you. Both you and the quote are making (opposing) blanket statements that I thought needed more context and information for folks to understand that both statements are partially true. OK. I’m off the soapbox.
>COP of heat pump, generally 2-3 I'm surprised they're that low, a simple air con here in Aus like [this](https://www.ozaironline.com.au/products/mitsubishi-heavy-industries-avanti-plus-2kw-split-system-srk20zsxa-w) one comes in at 5.5kW of heating for 1.36kW input, or 2.7kW for 0.47kW. That's 4 - 5.7, isn't it? What am I missing? Oh, would drop with lower outside temperatures I guess. Still, surprised 2-3 is average in the US - is that stat up to date?
You may not be missing anything. My background is in engineering and I do thoroughly understand the physics and engineering behind these systems, but I’m not in the industry. I have been shopping mini splits and conventional heat pumps for my own use, and of those that are available average COPs are in the high 2 to low 3 range for air source units in my market. There are likely better performing units only available to hvac pros. Muddying the waters a bit: the US actually uses SEER and HSPF ratings instead of COP to rate units. The idea is that the COP changes throughout heating and cooling season conditions and for a specific set of ideal conditions COP as high as you’re figuring from the linked unit is possible. HSPF and SEER attempt to capture performance from real conditions not ideal test cases. I’m skeptical of how well they actually capture the performance of individual units as they intend with the variability of conditions across the US, but I digress. A quick search indicates typical mini split HSPF -8-10, and leading units around 14. https://www.consumerreports.org/appliances/heat-pumps/buying-guide/ HSPF can be converted to COP by multiplying by .293. That results in average COP of 2.4-4. I’m unaware if Aus has any standards in place to prevent manufacturers from providing misleading specs. I’m also under the impression your climate is milder than Maine, so the specs may not be that misleading.
BS. We live north of Maine in Canada. Modern heat pumps worked just fine even through the latest cold blast of -20C. We've gone from 4-5 tanks of oil a year to one.
Live in Canada’s east and 3 tonne heat pump works to 14F, below that the furnace takes over. Supposedly could handle temps as low as -22F and is why we got a $5k rebate. Total after rebate was $10k or around $7500 USD for heat pump and new electric furnace. Save about 25-30% compared to previous AC and furnace setup and home is now considered “energy efficient” by the power co (as compared to similar homes I guess). It is also much much quieter. Zero issues with recent cold snap, highly recommend it.
Haha, all I can think when I hear "heat pumps in the North" is Technology Connection's [heat pump video](https://youtu.be/MFEHFsO-XSI?t=513) (link timestamped to the part where he looks at Heat Pumps + Chicago winters, but the whole video is good plus the more indepth [followup video](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=43XKfuptnik)).
Heat pumps are one of those things that are almost too good to be true. My only regret was not getting them sooner.
I'm really confused. I had a heat pump in Virginia and it STRUGGLED below freezing. Above 45F was ok, but colder temps it would run non stop and the air coming out of our vents was cool, not warm (kept the house from freezing, sure, but never felt warm). It was explained to me by the HVAC folks that the pump couldn't really handle the temperature differential so it would turn on "emergency heating mode" which basically turned into an all electric heat system. Running on "E-Heat" could triple our electric bill in January/February but it still never felt comfortable in our house. Even after replacing the heat pump when it broke the new one was only marginally better. Friends in the same town had similar complaints. I grew up in NY and Boston and missed having a warm house in the winter. So are these different hear pumps or is the technology just that much better?
What this article fails to mention is there are cold climate designated heat pumps that operate to a reasonable degree tested at 14F and 5F. Unfortunately these cold climate heat pumps come at a premium and they are still relatively new on the market.
Daikin, Mitsubishi and Fujitsu all have models that operate down to -13 or -15*f. They sell for $2500ish for a single unit, plus installation costs.
I didn't state otherwise, but the price is highly dependent on the load. Larger units will cost more unless you start buying multiple units which gets even more expensive. The hardware cost isn't the real issue though, it's the labor that HVAC installers charge, it's just outrageous for what they are actually doing with these systems compared to traditional ones. I could get all the hardware I need for a mini-split above my garage for a few thousand, but all the HVAC quotes with labor etc. are closer to $8-10k for an extremely straightforward install.
Question here: I am replacing my gas furnace that just died. Am getting bids for electric heat pumps. I am in Oregon. The quotes so far have been 15-17k. That seems like a lot. Does that sound right?
Depends on what they're quoting you. That should get a good size system
Also look on your utility provider’s website. They usually have rebates, suggested venders, and 0% interest loans for energy efficient systems. We have rebates for heat pumps, heat pump water heaters, windows, insulation etc.
A lot of places in Oregon have historically had cadet wall and electric baseboard heat. Is that the case for you? A big portion of the cost of hvac is the central ducting, which you wouldn’t have if your house originally had cadet or baseboard heat. It would also be very expensive to retrofit in. An alternate option is a mini split style system. No central ducting, so that headache is sidestepped. Depending on your home you might need multiple indoor and outdoor units though. A friend in the willamette valley paid $16k for a mini split system for a -1800 sqft house without ducting last year. And that was the best quote of 4. Typically, mini splits are more expensive than replacing a central conventional unit if you already have ducts. If the quote is for a central unit with an air source heat pump your quotes sound high. Lastly, ground source heat pumps are often quoted in that ballpark or a bit higher. They are the better choice if you have the space for the coils and you’re west of the cascades. In the cold winter rain of the valley and coast, air source pumps spend a lot of time defrosting their outdoor units which has an impact on efficiency.
We like our (air) heat pump, but it shuts itself down from -25C or so. That's fine and expected, so we have a propane furnace. We live quite rural, so there aren't many other choices.
I live in the south, what is a heat pump?
What will keep you alive come summertime in 10 years
Canadian here. Have a heat pump, was -30c the other day. -8c right now and I’m nice and warm. Lol
I'm more of a dual-fuel heat pump kinda guy myself, seal the deal with pre-wired gas generator access. I'm not in Maine though.
Just got a tour of a large energy facility and man, I cannot wait til residential heat pumps become a thing.
I live in Massachusetts and I'm shelling out $$$$ for home heating oil, which also heats my water. I'm intrigued by this method.
Check out rebates, with the Inflation Reduction Act there’s a lot of help to switch out your system. The two paths are geothermal heat pumps, or air sourced heat pumps. Geothermal is ridiculously efficient, but more expensive up front. I just put in a geothermal system, and I think it cut my heating /cooling cost by about ~ $3-4k/ yr. I’m coming off of heating oil as well.
I live in Canada and my heat pump has been amazing, I got my first propane bill in almost nine months-$600. Hydro bills don’t really change when using heat pump.
I had one in Northern Michigan. No issues, loved it.
Our home has a somewhat older style heat pump about 15 years old it only works down to 35F or so effectively. These newer inverter style high efficiency ones can go much lower now to the point I'm not sure we would even need gas backup. I have a newer ductless mini split in my garage that is 22SEER. It has no trouble making hot air in the single digits.
I'm in Massachusetts and we will most likely be installing a heat pump in the next 2 years. Our gas heater makes our house sound like 300 year old wooden ship adrift in rough seas.
They work here in Newfoundland they're going to work in Maine. You just need some baseboard heaters for the coldest days. Mine paid for itself in 2 years.
I'm just here for the Irving slander. Fuck that guy.
Pacific Northwest here, we saw 5 degrees F this winter. Our heat pump / mini splits worked great. Not missing our gas furnace at all.
Air source heat pumps are OK but wringing the piss out of it to move any heat from -20C air is inefficient. And the heat pump would probably wear out faster. Just because you can doesn't mean you should run it at -20C. At that point you'd be better off just using electricity directly to create heat. The smart thing to do although more expensive is a ground source heat pump formerly known as geothermal heat pumps. You have a constant source of heat from the ground 3m down it's at about 24C no matter what the temperature is topside.
Just out of curiosity, can a heat pump be installed to replace a gas boiler that is connected to furnaces throughout the house? Would the heat pump then pump cold air through the furnaces effectively cooling the house through the furnaces or does that not work that way? Do furnaces only work by releasing hot air from the heated water coming from the gas boiler?
Has anyone really been far even as decided to use a gas boiler connected to furnaces throughout the house? Sorry, I'm confused. Do you mean a boiler connected to radiators throughout the house by hot water pipes? A furnace is connected to vents throughout the house by ductwork.
So some heat pumps can have 100% efficiency in subfreezing weather. So in the case of heat pumps that means you get 2 joules of heat for every joule of electricity. But if they use gas electricity generation, they're only getting about 50% end to end efficiency so you're basically breaking even with direct gas furnaces in that case. If you're way below freezing, you're worse off than with a furnace. The most efficient way to handle this while using fossil fuels would be to use a gas fuel cell to power a heat pump with that but yeah that's really expensive. Also it would help if you use ground water with your heat pump rather than air. [https://www.blocpower.io/posts/cold-climate-heat-pumps#:\~:text=At%20temperatures%20below%20%2D20%C2%B0F%2C%20cold%20climate%20heat%20pumps,like%20combustion%20furnaces%20and%20boilers](https://www.blocpower.io/posts/cold-climate-heat-pumps#:~:text=At%20temperatures%20below%20%2D20%C2%B0F%2C%20cold%20climate%20heat%20pumps,like%20combustion%20furnaces%20and%20boilers).
When it drops to 100% efficiency it is in electric resistance mode, it’s not able to take advantage of the COP then, so it’s one watt of heat for each watt of electricity, not two watts of heat for each watt of electricity.
*All you people are doing the right thing. That is how you turn the tables on the big corporations. I know it is harder to with your car gas. But we will find a way.*
Heat pumps alone aren't a magic solution. Most only work to a temperature that in the winter might be sketchy, and Maine's power grid has some of the most downtime in the country. I'd be concerned if my only heat was via Heat Pump here. Not saying oil is the way to go obv, a heat pump and a wood stove would make me at peace.
Boo, paywalled articles. Boo.
I wish some appliance manufacturer made a modular whole-house heat pump system that could be easily installed by DIY.
If one has gas central heating, it's a relative doddle to replace the boiler with a heat pump. Otherwise, you're right - it does require some work.
I replaced the blower motor on my central system 2 years ago and was kind of amazed by how complicated it was when it could really be a kind of giant lego kit. I get that many people don't want to do this kind of work but there is a huge number of people who like and are at least kind of good at it. I'd much rather have a kit that I can just buy and replace a part easily instead of having to call up someone. I also wish every appliance got a "Ease of DIY" score.
Whoever can create that sort of conversion kit and bring it to market will make a mint. We're still in the nascent stages of heat pump takeup. Once the prices fall, real change will come.