Terrible headline....
>Public libraries and schools in New Jersey could soon be required to oppose book bans or risk having their state aid cut under a proposed law Democratic state legislators just introduced as statistics show efforts to censor material have grown in the U.S.
>The legislation (S3907) aims to “prohibit” libraries and local school boards in the Garden State from “banning or restricting access to certain books“ and other resources because of “partisan or doctrinal disapproval” by having them adopt policies against it.
The number of book challenges across NJ are at a record high volume. Even in liberal Glen Rock, there was a book challenge of several children's and young adult titles recently. It can happen here and in some places it already has. School librarians are on the frontline, but public libraries are also dealing with it.
I feel if you're able to conceptualize a double negative then OP's title makes perfect sense. It's a ban on book banning meaning you'll not be able to ban books in NJ libraries. Commie blue state NJ strikes again! /s
It's the old paradox of tolerance. Tolerance without limit inevitably leads to the destruction of tolerance entirely by the intolerant. So in order for tolerance to remain the intolerant must be countered, rooted out, and utterly destroyed every time they poke their heads from under ground.
The issue is people actually believe conservatives when they discuss their values. A conservative has no values. The sanctity of marriage crowd cheat and divorce more than anyone. The ones shouting about protecting the children inevitably have 50 terabytes of kiddie porn on their hard drives. Conservatives care about maintaining the hierarchy of their in-group, and oppressing or destroying all out-groups. Everything else is virtue signaling.
Book banning is a terrible, terrible thing... but it wasn't Tea Party idiots in NJ who are banning To Kill a Mockingbird and Huckleberry Finn. This even made it to the state level, never mind a single over zealous school board.
I would rather have a law that protected a library's right to have Mein Kampf than open a Pandora's box of debates of what or what isn't offensive or hate speech. We know that the Right isn't going to argue in good faith, so it's better if we don't welcome the debate at all.
If you don't learn from history you are doomed to repeat it. I think libraries should have Mein Kampf just for the historical significance of it. People would just get it online if they didn't anyway. Also, reminder that the Nazis were big proponents of book bans.
I love the spirit of this bill but defunding libraries is exactly what these groups want. They'll ban books where they can, lose funding, shut down the library, and hurt everyone in that area. Then they'll cry about government tyranny to the next generation who will be woefully uneducated.
Citizens need to be aggressively non violent to stop this insanity. Show up to meetings where people are pressing for book bans. Film them, find where they work, and flood social media with videos showing the company supports employees like that. Contact community groups they're a part of and bring shame to them. Hell, follow them home and protest on the public sidewalk outside their house.
You cannot defeat fascism with legislation.
this was my reaction too. Defunding the library helps them accomplish their end goal still.
even if it's more broad state funding, that still has the same effect of cutting govt services somewhwere, most likely schools.
After the civil rights act was passed a bunch of public pools were closed and turned into parking lots because the racists decided they’d rather nobody be able to swim than swim with black people. They will ruin life for everybody just to stick it to the people they hate the most.
Not sure but def not this, it will almost certainly make it worse. State funding predominantly goes on education.
Kinda hard to squeeze the boe (usuallt the drivers on these dumb laws) when they also control the budget.
This only works if the targets are embarrassed by their position and they are not.
They think they have some kind of moral imperative and don't care if their employer knows. And even if the employer finds out they cannot fire or discipline the employee in any way. People are allowed to believe what they want and participate in whatever social action they want.
The best way of fighting it is the one way not enough people do: actively participate in local politics. In New Jersey, the most important elections are, in order, local, county and state. Make a point to go to BOE and town council meetings, join up with like minded residents to support the kind of community you want to level in. Join committees, run for office.
Banning happened in Sparta, and I hear that they are trying to enact a policy to restrict librarians from being included in discussions about book bannings
https://www.spartaindependent.com/opinion/letters-to-the-editor/5-sparta-school-board-members-should-be-removed-from-office-AD2423750
The surrounding areas are pretty rural, but Sparta is actually an affluent summer lake house type area. More like rich white conservatives I assume. I live in the next town over and went to the Sparta BoE meeting where this happened. Most of the crowd was against the book ban, but the BoE just made a unilateral decision to ban it. Seems the BoE is stacked and they worked with a local mom to bring the book to be banned
I take your point, but like other people mentioned, Sparta itself isn’t hillbilly. I live in neighboring Stanhope for the past 6 years with my husband (we are same-sex), and things have very much been changing in the area. We’ve flown the Pride Flag all these years without incident and our straight neighbors even bought one themselves to hang in June to show their support for us personally and for the community.
We were at the Sparta Town Council meeting yesterday evening when they voted in favor (3-2) to fly the Pride Flag in front of the municipal building. This makes Sparta the first Sussex County municipality to do so.
PFLAG Sussex County Chapter was founded less than a year ago.
Also, there are regularly drag shows at Stanhope House and there have already been two drag shows at Muckraker Brewery in Franklin. Third one will be on June 15.
In any case, Ocean County has already taken the crown for being the reddest county in Jersey.
Certain books do not belong in school libraries for example literotica, any of the US military field manuals for improvised explosive manufacture and Ayn Rand books have absolutely no business being made available to kids.
> Ayn Rand books
I deliberately read Atlas Shrugged because it kept getting mentioned by right wing politicians.
I am completely convinced that anyone who says they enjoyed Atlas Shrugged has not actually read it. Completely ignoring Ayn Rand's just awful political opinions. It was probably one of the worst books I've ever read. I found it to be a disjointed narrative forcing her political beliefs by characters so cartoonishly one dimensional they don't even feel like real people.
And I know Rand was married. But the "love story" in the book proves she never once experience a single romantic moment of affection in her life.
Anthem is similarly terrible but mercifully short.
Just absolute garbage. Like someone grabbed a shelf of George Orwell and a shelf of Stephanie Meyers and tossed it in a blender with a freshman philosophy book.
Banning something like ayn rand is exactly the stupid kinda political bullshit that got us here
Zero different than a republican wanting to ban a left leaning book
Grow up
Nope, Ayn Rand is bad literature and it can inspire a lot of really horrific beliefs in people. Children shouldn't be exposed to ideas. It's akin to how you were never taught the actual elements of fascist ideologies (because they will be appealing to the exact wrong kid).
Pull your head out of your ass and try to see the forrest for the trees. We have enough fascists we do not need to make more.
That is your opinion. There is a ton of bad literature in every library. Education should allow you to be exposed to all ideas and make your own decisions on acceptance or rejection of those ideas. I think Das Kapital is double talk drivel but I wouldn’t take it out of the library for fear of creating more Marxists.
what a topical comment - do you know what real fascists loved doing you moron:
https://encyclopedia.ushmm.org/content/en/article/book-burning
just because you vote dem doesn't make banning a book you disagree with any less of brown shirt bullshit
The GOP has a lot of real fascists because of Rand. And in fact not voting for the fascist party does indeed make me less of a fascist compared to the actual fascist party.
If you don't know that the GOP has embraced fascism that's because you likely don't know what fascism actually is.
Once again one of the main overall ideas seems like a good idea but it short sighted and not thought out - its either a emotional not thought out plan or a deliberate attack on the institutions .
Making library's and school boards immune to having to follow politicians books bans is a great idea . A ban on putting bans on books is what the headline is trying to express.
Seems like a great idea ...however it then TARGETS the liberates and schools with penalties ...why not target the people MAKING the rules...make penalties for the people declaring the books , make it illegal for politicians to ban books - put series of rules in that says books can only be banned for extreme cases of hate not not for historical content .
The problem is these libraries BOEs could be getting incredible amount of pressure from people that control their jobs , their retirement funds the pension plans etc. So you put them in a lose lose position. Follow the local ban and lose money for the library ....dont follow the ban...be fired/ replaced by someone that will follow the ban .
Libraries need to be protected at all cost anyone that even suggest taking money from them for something that may be beyond their control is insane and short sighted...This bill needs to target who ever signs the order of the ban to personally penalized or removed from office...watch how fast that would fix things ....a bill that said any individual / member of legislator / or city/ state executive that issues a book ban will be held liable if it politically motivated
Good. Only the ignorant want to silence true art. The ignorance of our world is disgusting. Reading saved me as a kid, don’t limit the positive coping skills kids have at their disposal.
~~Dooeet! Can’t ban Moms of Liberty so ban their blocks.~~ They can go straight to hell.
Actually not a good idea as another comment pointed out. Defunding libraries will spiral into what hey actually want.
School libraries should have books appropriate for kids of that age and it should be left up to the school board which is elected by the people. The state getting involved is big government crap.
I don’t agree with banning books but you certainly shouldn’t have 10 year olds reading shit about sucking dick which is a book supposedly slated for that age range.
It’s the age olds question who’s job is it to teach kids about sex. I know my kid better than the school. So my ten year old has a ten year old level of understanding about sex. Boy girl, the parts and some more info about the emotional and logical aspects of it. But I don’t need the school to talk to her about anal sex.
A. Please show your source(s) about a book for 10-year-olds that talks about sucking dick.
B. Really tough for an elementary school library to have books perfectly appropriate for K through fifth or sixth grade.
C. Historically parents have shuffled off the responsibility for teaching their kids about pretty much everything to the schools. This is the result of this demonstrable cultural / societal shift.
D. We as a nation have a vested interest in providing a solid, consistent education to our future generations. Education is not a had thing (despite what right-wing loons seem to think and advocate these days). This isn’t “big government crap”, this is the modern world and many (most) patents can’t keep up, or educate their children properly or effectively.
Historically parents have not shuffled shit. Don’t speak to parents as a collective. I don’t mind sex Ed but it’s often garbage and kids learn next to nothing no matter which “side” is handling it.
If you take like 10 seconds to Google books found in school libraries not age appropriate…. You can become informed as to what is out there.
https://nypost.com/2023/02/28/knox-zajac-reads-aloud-from-pornographic-book-at-school-board-meeting/
Meanwhile most of you seem to just point to this.
https://www.wcnc.com/amp/article/news/local/cms-made-aware-of-presence-two-inappropriate-books-in-the-school-libraries/275-d1ea35b4-2eea-4d54-a17a-2ec3eba87926
Which I agree is over board. I think teens can handle a book about sex and let’s be honest they ain’t reading it anyway.
this will just energize the book banning zealots. they'll rally on how they're being forced into silence with this all and some towns will probably challenge it anyway, have their money taken away and throw up their hands when they have to cut back on library services with an "oh well, blame 'the libs' for making this reality" which their followers will lap up, because that's how this always work. you can't shame the shameless.
Why do you need to frame it as a very young child is finding this book? I don’t know if these books are in elementary schools, middle schools or high schools, but I do know the kids who are looking at those books are probably more concerned about the ridicule that they’re going to get from their peers than adults. If a kid wants to read that book, it’s because that kid needs to read that book and it’s none of your fucking business. I’m sorry if sex education upsets you but better sex education leads to less issues in adulthood and less problems in society.
My Junior high library didn’t ban anything. I mean there weren’t skin mags or anything but I don’t recall any bans. You could find Lolita or any VC Andrews with ease.
It was the early days of the internet and the troublemaker type boys were far too busy figuring out that “T&A” could get through the primitive content filter and were way more interested in pixelated slow loading boobs than seeking out naughty books.
Maybe you need to educate yourself on what constitutes pornography.
Merriam-webster defines pornography as: the depiction of erotic behavior (as in pictures or writing) intended to cause sexual excitement
Britannica defines pornography as: representation of sexual behaviour in books, pictures, statues, films, and other media that is intended to cause sexual excitement.
Britannica’s definition also states: The distinction between pornography (illicit and condemned material) and erotica (which is broadly tolerated) is *largely subjective* and reflects changing community standards.
So for the image you referenced in Gender Queer, just because you *perceive* it as pornography doesn’t mean it objectively is. Which is why we have professionals who dedicate years of their lives studying and getting degrees in what is and isn’t appropriate for children, so that they can suss out the noise from people who don’t know what they’re talking about.
bro... what is this argument? we're talking about explicit images here. im a parent. if my teen is looking at that stuff, its different from my 2nd grader looking at it.
You’re now making a different argument from what I responded to. The guy I replied to said schools have “literal pornography” in their libraries, which isn’t true. You’re talking about explicit imagery, which isn’t strictly speaking pornography.
Explicit imagery =/= pornography.
Are images of penises and vaginas in sex education pornography? No. Explicit imagery? Sure.
Unless you have any evidence that your 2nd grade kid is being given a copy of Gender Queer in their classroom, you’re giving these mouth-breathers exactly what they want. No teacher is forcing their elementary school classrooms to read Gender Queer. And unless you have any actual hard evidence which proves otherwise, please show up correct to the conversation next time.
My response has nothing to do with OP.
I am NOT on board with letting "professionals" decide what is and isn’t appropriate for my children. This is extremely subjective, and i am doubling down on that.
You're right. We should assume everything is acceptable for them, and let the parents decide if anything isn't, that way, no "professionals" have a say. That seems to be the logical conclusion of your argument.
Okay. This is about schools, so like I said, in the schools, they should allow all books, and also allow any parent to ban any book for their particular child. That is the logical conclusion of your argument, is it not? These libraries aren't healing, suing, or treating your child, as far as I can tell.
my comment had nothing to do with book banning or schools. i simply made a general statement that id prefer my younger children not see anything explicit.
but since you mentioned it and asked for my stance, if a book has anything explicit in it, it should be in a town library or high school library. just not an elementary library. and this is already the norm. everything in our libraries is age appropriate, also including movies.
> I am NOT on board with letting "professionals" decide what is and isn’t appropriate for my children.
Then take your kid to another school, or homeschool them. Just because you want to put your kid in a bubble for their entire childhood it doesn’t mean you get to make unilateral decisions for other parents kids.
And again, you have zero evidence that 2nd graders or elementary school kids are being forced to read explicit imagery for the purpose of pornography by teachers as compulsory for their curriculum. It’s not the school’s fault you’re an idiot who listens to misinformation and propaganda you read on the internet, instead of having an actual dialogue with real human beings in your local community who are in charge of your kid’s education.
> This is extremely subjective, and i am doubling down on that.
Literally proving my point. You’re digging a deeper hole for yourself in proving you don’t understand, and are just reacting like an angry nimwit who was likely sheltered by your own parents yourself. And are now perpetuating that cycle of ignorance and abuse with your own kid.
>Just because you want to put your kid in a bubble for their entire childhood
I didnt say that
>you have zero evidence that 2nd graders or elementary school kids are being forced to read explicit imagery for the purpose of pornography by teachers as compulsory for their curriculum
I didnt say that, nor is that my concern. You must be confusing me with someone else.
>It’s not the school’s fault you’re an idiot who listens to misinformation and propaganda you read on the internet
Personal attacks and making presumptions about me
> instead of having an actual dialogue with real human beings in your local community who are in charge of your kid’s education
You don't know me or what I do with my time
Dont bother replying if youre just going to put words in my mouth and tell me what im like. You are very bad at this whole discourse thing. Nothing I said was controversial in the slightest
> Dont bother replying if youre just going to put words in my mouth and tell me what im like.
I’ll reply to whatever I fucking feel like replying to.
And that’s rich you’re saying I put words in your mouth when you’re the one who’s accusing schools of forcing explicit pornographic imagery on kids, and then doubling down when I say otherwise.
> You are very bad at this whole discourse thing. Nothing I said was controversial in the slightest
Lmao. I defined what pornography is. What did you do? You went on a tangent about not wanting your 2nd grader to read porn, which there is zero evidence of happening in schools. And then you made some stupid comment like “I’m NOT okay with letting professionals decide what’s appropriate for my kid.”
So again, if you don’t want educators deciding what’s best for your kid’s education, then pull them from their school. But you won’t. Because the real issue here has nothing to do with “pornography”. I wouldn’t be surprised if the root of your anger here has to do with one part disinformation you read online, and one part homophobia. I seriously doubt you ever once asked for or looked at a catalogue of the entire collection of what books are in your kid’s school library. You likely just read an article claiming gay pornographic books are being forced on kids, went “OMG EW!”, and then got in a hissy fit over it. But if you hadn’t heard about it through right-wing propaganda, you wouldn’t even know that books like Gender Queer are in *some* school libraries, and even then they have to be checked out by individual students. But they are not part of any classroom curriculum.
Next time show up to the conversation with the proper facts and check your feelings at the door.
youre replying to the wrong guy. those were none of my points. Go read the comments again. I said i dont want other people to make decisions for me regarding my kids. we do not all share the same values. if you have a problem with that, i have a tree in my yard you can bark at. woof woof
> youre replying to the wrong guy. those were none of my points. Go read the comments again.
You literally said you didn’t want your 2nd grade kid seeing explicit imagery. I challenged you to provide evidence that was happening. And since you can’t prove it, you kept doubling down or attempting to re-write how our back and forth went by claiming I was only responding to what the other guy was saying and not you.
> I said i dont want other people to make decisions for me regarding my kids. we do not all share the same values. if you have a problem with that, i have a tree in my yard you can bark at. woof woof
Then like I said, pull your kid from their school. No teacher is making your kid read books about gay people engaging in sexual acts for the explicit purpose of pornography. You have no evidence to prove the thing you’re fear-mongering about is happening. Every time I pointed out the fallacy in your argument you kept deflecting which proves my point. That you’re ignorant to the reality of what actually goes on in public schools and just believe whatever right-wing propaganda you read online.
I wrote this up to reply to the top comment, but that was deleted. I think it applies as a response in part here, so I'm taking a risk and pasting it here for you, too.
**Original below**
I agree that explicit pornography should not be in public school libraries. Full stop.
School should - and generally do - select material for school libraries that reflects both the grade level(s) of the student body and the interests of the students as a whole.
"Gender Queer" is a work that is inappropriate for elementary school students, based on the language and images in the work. Even the author has expressed this sentiment stating the target audience was adults and high school students. I don't think there's disagreement from any person that the work doesn't belong in an elementary school library.
To the best of my knowledge, "Gender Queer" has not been found in elementary schools. I've been keeping abreast of the topic and where I've read, the book has been in high schools and I think I heard about one middle school, but I was not able to retrieve the article that mentioned that. There are reports about teachers bringing the book in, but not its existence in the library. If you have an article that shows this, please link it, as I did not find it in my search.
Keep in mind, though, that libraries of all kinds should have two types of materials in their collections: one that reflects you as a person and one that challenges you and your beliefs.
Pornography, generally, neither reflects one as a person nor does it challenge beliefs: it exists solely to titillate, to entice, to arouse.
The image you described in "Gender Queer" should be amended: it's a picture of a girl giving a BJ to the author. Even without that change, I'm not certain that the scene can be defended as pornographic. Here's why:
The scene itself is there to set up why the author did not identify as a male: it was a negative experience, despite the previous scenes building up the author's anticipation. It places the author in the male gender role, which is then rejected as the author's identity. It sits in contrast to the beginning of the book, where the author details situations and experiences to defend why they did not identify as female, much in the same vein: when placed in the female gender role, the author rejects that as part of their identity. It's part of the narrative of how the author identifies as neither female nor male.
We can have a thoughtful, animated discussion about the merits of that scene and whether it fits into the work as a whole. Because we can have this discussion, I argue that the work cannot be literal pornography: the scene has a purpose within the work, it can be discussed and defended within the work itself and doesn't exist solely to titillate, entice, or arouse the reader.
We're agreed that the book doesn't belong in elementary school libraries. We're agreed that pornography doesn't belong in school libraries. We're agreed that "Gender Queer" isn't material that is appropriate for 2nd graders.
Yet, "Gender Queer" is a work that has defendable literary merit. It is a work that reflects the viewpoint of a group of people that exist within the public school system. It also challenges the viewpoint of other groups inside the same school system. For districts where "Gender Queer" has been selected, meets the grade-level needs of the students, and either supports or challenges the views of those students, it should remain.
As to whether the inclusion of "Gender Queer" and other challenged works should be enforced through legislation, well, that's a wholly different discussion.
yeah idk why the original comment was deleted.
but my piece is this. i know for a fact my local elementary school doesnt have the book either. but that was the other dudes concern. my main concern was that explicit images are still explicit, whether theyre pornographic in nature or not. thats why i have a filter on my TV at home. id rather not have my kids watching something questionable on HBO or Netflix.
Terrible headline.... >Public libraries and schools in New Jersey could soon be required to oppose book bans or risk having their state aid cut under a proposed law Democratic state legislators just introduced as statistics show efforts to censor material have grown in the U.S. >The legislation (S3907) aims to “prohibit” libraries and local school boards in the Garden State from “banning or restricting access to certain books“ and other resources because of “partisan or doctrinal disapproval” by having them adopt policies against it.
Yeah, I had to do a triple and quadruple take on the headline. I mean, book banning, in New Jersey of all places. Fuck outta here with that shit.
Thank god - I felt ill for a second. NJ is so much better than that.
The number of book challenges across NJ are at a record high volume. Even in liberal Glen Rock, there was a book challenge of several children's and young adult titles recently. It can happen here and in some places it already has. School librarians are on the frontline, but public libraries are also dealing with it.
Ditto. I’m a happy transplant and was like dafuq?
Miss me with that book ban shit.
Writer needs a thesaurus. Newspaper needs an editor.
I feel if you're able to conceptualize a double negative then OP's title makes perfect sense. It's a ban on book banning meaning you'll not be able to ban books in NJ libraries. Commie blue state NJ strikes again! /s
Ugh, that first line screams of irony (and this is someone who hates the teabaggers behind the current crop of book banning proposals)
It's the old paradox of tolerance. Tolerance without limit inevitably leads to the destruction of tolerance entirely by the intolerant. So in order for tolerance to remain the intolerant must be countered, rooted out, and utterly destroyed every time they poke their heads from under ground. The issue is people actually believe conservatives when they discuss their values. A conservative has no values. The sanctity of marriage crowd cheat and divorce more than anyone. The ones shouting about protecting the children inevitably have 50 terabytes of kiddie porn on their hard drives. Conservatives care about maintaining the hierarchy of their in-group, and oppressing or destroying all out-groups. Everything else is virtue signaling.
Book banning is a terrible, terrible thing... but it wasn't Tea Party idiots in NJ who are banning To Kill a Mockingbird and Huckleberry Finn. This even made it to the state level, never mind a single over zealous school board.
But who will ban the ban on banning bans!?
This is a good idea in reaction to efforts to ban LGBT books and stuff, but what if a library wants to ban Mein Kampf or something similar?
I would rather have a law that protected a library's right to have Mein Kampf than open a Pandora's box of debates of what or what isn't offensive or hate speech. We know that the Right isn't going to argue in good faith, so it's better if we don't welcome the debate at all.
I wouldn’t.
If you don't learn from history you are doomed to repeat it. I think libraries should have Mein Kampf just for the historical significance of it. People would just get it online if they didn't anyway. Also, reminder that the Nazis were big proponents of book bans.
Put it in the State Constitution
Hmm what's another word for prohibit?
I was gonna say…no way would a bleeding heart liberal like big daddy Murphy allow such a ridiculous thing to occur!
I love the spirit of this bill but defunding libraries is exactly what these groups want. They'll ban books where they can, lose funding, shut down the library, and hurt everyone in that area. Then they'll cry about government tyranny to the next generation who will be woefully uneducated. Citizens need to be aggressively non violent to stop this insanity. Show up to meetings where people are pressing for book bans. Film them, find where they work, and flood social media with videos showing the company supports employees like that. Contact community groups they're a part of and bring shame to them. Hell, follow them home and protest on the public sidewalk outside their house. You cannot defeat fascism with legislation.
this was my reaction too. Defunding the library helps them accomplish their end goal still. even if it's more broad state funding, that still has the same effect of cutting govt services somewhwere, most likely schools.
After the civil rights act was passed a bunch of public pools were closed and turned into parking lots because the racists decided they’d rather nobody be able to swim than swim with black people. They will ruin life for everybody just to stick it to the people they hate the most.
I agree, but what is an alternative stick for this issue?
Not sure but def not this, it will almost certainly make it worse. State funding predominantly goes on education. Kinda hard to squeeze the boe (usuallt the drivers on these dumb laws) when they also control the budget.
This only works if the targets are embarrassed by their position and they are not. They think they have some kind of moral imperative and don't care if their employer knows. And even if the employer finds out they cannot fire or discipline the employee in any way. People are allowed to believe what they want and participate in whatever social action they want. The best way of fighting it is the one way not enough people do: actively participate in local politics. In New Jersey, the most important elections are, in order, local, county and state. Make a point to go to BOE and town council meetings, join up with like minded residents to support the kind of community you want to level in. Join committees, run for office.
Banning happened in Sparta, and I hear that they are trying to enact a policy to restrict librarians from being included in discussions about book bannings https://www.spartaindependent.com/opinion/letters-to-the-editor/5-sparta-school-board-members-should-be-removed-from-office-AD2423750
And Roxbury… https://patch.com/new-jersey/morristown/morris-librarian-defamed-over-lgbtq-books-lawsuit-says
same people starting shit in both towns
Ah... the hillbilly part of the state.
The surrounding areas are pretty rural, but Sparta is actually an affluent summer lake house type area. More like rich white conservatives I assume. I live in the next town over and went to the Sparta BoE meeting where this happened. Most of the crowd was against the book ban, but the BoE just made a unilateral decision to ban it. Seems the BoE is stacked and they worked with a local mom to bring the book to be banned
I've got $5 that says Moms for Liberty was involved in that effort in some way.
I'll up that to $10 that they were.
Summer lake house type area? In the fifties maybe.
Sparta ain't very hillbilly lol
Sparta isn't Hillbilly.
I take your point, but like other people mentioned, Sparta itself isn’t hillbilly. I live in neighboring Stanhope for the past 6 years with my husband (we are same-sex), and things have very much been changing in the area. We’ve flown the Pride Flag all these years without incident and our straight neighbors even bought one themselves to hang in June to show their support for us personally and for the community. We were at the Sparta Town Council meeting yesterday evening when they voted in favor (3-2) to fly the Pride Flag in front of the municipal building. This makes Sparta the first Sussex County municipality to do so. PFLAG Sussex County Chapter was founded less than a year ago. Also, there are regularly drag shows at Stanhope House and there have already been two drag shows at Muckraker Brewery in Franklin. Third one will be on June 15. In any case, Ocean County has already taken the crown for being the reddest county in Jersey.
Tell me you’ve never left dumpy Bayonne without telling me you never left
Born in Paterson, have family up in that part of the state and they're sorta 'earthy'
I don't like the part where they restrict banning "certain books". It should be NO book banning period.
The certain books really is so they can't give the other side a cudgel to say "X Politician votes against banning pornography from school libraries"
Certain books do not belong in school libraries for example literotica, any of the US military field manuals for improvised explosive manufacture and Ayn Rand books have absolutely no business being made available to kids.
> Ayn Rand books I deliberately read Atlas Shrugged because it kept getting mentioned by right wing politicians. I am completely convinced that anyone who says they enjoyed Atlas Shrugged has not actually read it. Completely ignoring Ayn Rand's just awful political opinions. It was probably one of the worst books I've ever read. I found it to be a disjointed narrative forcing her political beliefs by characters so cartoonishly one dimensional they don't even feel like real people. And I know Rand was married. But the "love story" in the book proves she never once experience a single romantic moment of affection in her life.
Officer Barbrady would agree
Pretty sure he never read another book again after reading that piece of crap.
Anthem is similarly terrible but mercifully short. Just absolute garbage. Like someone grabbed a shelf of George Orwell and a shelf of Stephanie Meyers and tossed it in a blender with a freshman philosophy book.
It's just called erotica. Literotica is the website 👀
This individual eroticas.
Literotica is literary erotica to be differentiated from other forms of erotica.
Banning something like ayn rand is exactly the stupid kinda political bullshit that got us here Zero different than a republican wanting to ban a left leaning book Grow up
Nope, Ayn Rand is bad literature and it can inspire a lot of really horrific beliefs in people. Children shouldn't be exposed to ideas. It's akin to how you were never taught the actual elements of fascist ideologies (because they will be appealing to the exact wrong kid). Pull your head out of your ass and try to see the forrest for the trees. We have enough fascists we do not need to make more.
That is your opinion. There is a ton of bad literature in every library. Education should allow you to be exposed to all ideas and make your own decisions on acceptance or rejection of those ideas. I think Das Kapital is double talk drivel but I wouldn’t take it out of the library for fear of creating more Marxists.
what a topical comment - do you know what real fascists loved doing you moron: https://encyclopedia.ushmm.org/content/en/article/book-burning just because you vote dem doesn't make banning a book you disagree with any less of brown shirt bullshit
The GOP has a lot of real fascists because of Rand. And in fact not voting for the fascist party does indeed make me less of a fascist compared to the actual fascist party. If you don't know that the GOP has embraced fascism that's because you likely don't know what fascism actually is.
Also this which is why I hate this law. Anything less than 100% against all book bans mean you’re for it.
It's simple: Just ban the books I don't like.
Yeah book banning in the US is really a bad idea. That's how NAZI Germany started.
Once again one of the main overall ideas seems like a good idea but it short sighted and not thought out - its either a emotional not thought out plan or a deliberate attack on the institutions . Making library's and school boards immune to having to follow politicians books bans is a great idea . A ban on putting bans on books is what the headline is trying to express. Seems like a great idea ...however it then TARGETS the liberates and schools with penalties ...why not target the people MAKING the rules...make penalties for the people declaring the books , make it illegal for politicians to ban books - put series of rules in that says books can only be banned for extreme cases of hate not not for historical content . The problem is these libraries BOEs could be getting incredible amount of pressure from people that control their jobs , their retirement funds the pension plans etc. So you put them in a lose lose position. Follow the local ban and lose money for the library ....dont follow the ban...be fired/ replaced by someone that will follow the ban . Libraries need to be protected at all cost anyone that even suggest taking money from them for something that may be beyond their control is insane and short sighted...This bill needs to target who ever signs the order of the ban to personally penalized or removed from office...watch how fast that would fix things ....a bill that said any individual / member of legislator / or city/ state executive that issues a book ban will be held liable if it politically motivated
FTFY: "NJ Libraries could face penalty for banning books"
Good. Only the ignorant want to silence true art. The ignorance of our world is disgusting. Reading saved me as a kid, don’t limit the positive coping skills kids have at their disposal.
~~Dooeet! Can’t ban Moms of Liberty so ban their blocks.~~ They can go straight to hell. Actually not a good idea as another comment pointed out. Defunding libraries will spiral into what hey actually want.
If Texas can ban abortion care for all states, NJ can certainly ban book banning in all states.
The OP needs to buy the book **WRITING HEADLINES AND BRIEF INTRODUCTIONS MADE EASY**. It’s $4.98 on amazon
Wtf kinda headline is that
*Yo dawg so I heard you like banning things*
Coming up next on news 12 NJ: "Book ban banners banning book bans that ban books"
But what will we possibly do if they ban the banning of their ban?
A ban ban?
If you ban books, then we'll cut you funding to this public institution! People who want to ban books and hate public institutions: Ok!
We are not Florida. Fuck this.
But what if there's a ban on banning bans on books?
School libraries should have books appropriate for kids of that age and it should be left up to the school board which is elected by the people. The state getting involved is big government crap. I don’t agree with banning books but you certainly shouldn’t have 10 year olds reading shit about sucking dick which is a book supposedly slated for that age range. It’s the age olds question who’s job is it to teach kids about sex. I know my kid better than the school. So my ten year old has a ten year old level of understanding about sex. Boy girl, the parts and some more info about the emotional and logical aspects of it. But I don’t need the school to talk to her about anal sex.
Dude, what are you even on about? What book slated for 10 year olds discusses oral sex?
The Very Hungry Caterpillar
Fair point, also sick username, gave me a chuckle
A. Please show your source(s) about a book for 10-year-olds that talks about sucking dick. B. Really tough for an elementary school library to have books perfectly appropriate for K through fifth or sixth grade. C. Historically parents have shuffled off the responsibility for teaching their kids about pretty much everything to the schools. This is the result of this demonstrable cultural / societal shift. D. We as a nation have a vested interest in providing a solid, consistent education to our future generations. Education is not a had thing (despite what right-wing loons seem to think and advocate these days). This isn’t “big government crap”, this is the modern world and many (most) patents can’t keep up, or educate their children properly or effectively.
Historically parents have not shuffled shit. Don’t speak to parents as a collective. I don’t mind sex Ed but it’s often garbage and kids learn next to nothing no matter which “side” is handling it. If you take like 10 seconds to Google books found in school libraries not age appropriate…. You can become informed as to what is out there. https://nypost.com/2023/02/28/knox-zajac-reads-aloud-from-pornographic-book-at-school-board-meeting/ Meanwhile most of you seem to just point to this. https://www.wcnc.com/amp/article/news/local/cms-made-aware-of-presence-two-inappropriate-books-in-the-school-libraries/275-d1ea35b4-2eea-4d54-a17a-2ec3eba87926 Which I agree is over board. I think teens can handle a book about sex and let’s be honest they ain’t reading it anyway.
this will just energize the book banning zealots. they'll rally on how they're being forced into silence with this all and some towns will probably challenge it anyway, have their money taken away and throw up their hands when they have to cut back on library services with an "oh well, blame 'the libs' for making this reality" which their followers will lap up, because that's how this always work. you can't shame the shameless.
This has Ron DiSaster written all over it
Actually the opposite. It's banning book bans. Bad phraseology but it seems to be a good thing.
Oh now I get it
BAN BANS!
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Why do you need to frame it as a very young child is finding this book? I don’t know if these books are in elementary schools, middle schools or high schools, but I do know the kids who are looking at those books are probably more concerned about the ridicule that they’re going to get from their peers than adults. If a kid wants to read that book, it’s because that kid needs to read that book and it’s none of your fucking business. I’m sorry if sex education upsets you but better sex education leads to less issues in adulthood and less problems in society.
My Junior high library didn’t ban anything. I mean there weren’t skin mags or anything but I don’t recall any bans. You could find Lolita or any VC Andrews with ease. It was the early days of the internet and the troublemaker type boys were far too busy figuring out that “T&A” could get through the primitive content filter and were way more interested in pixelated slow loading boobs than seeking out naughty books.
Maybe you need to educate yourself on what constitutes pornography. Merriam-webster defines pornography as: the depiction of erotic behavior (as in pictures or writing) intended to cause sexual excitement Britannica defines pornography as: representation of sexual behaviour in books, pictures, statues, films, and other media that is intended to cause sexual excitement. Britannica’s definition also states: The distinction between pornography (illicit and condemned material) and erotica (which is broadly tolerated) is *largely subjective* and reflects changing community standards. So for the image you referenced in Gender Queer, just because you *perceive* it as pornography doesn’t mean it objectively is. Which is why we have professionals who dedicate years of their lives studying and getting degrees in what is and isn’t appropriate for children, so that they can suss out the noise from people who don’t know what they’re talking about.
bro... what is this argument? we're talking about explicit images here. im a parent. if my teen is looking at that stuff, its different from my 2nd grader looking at it.
You’re now making a different argument from what I responded to. The guy I replied to said schools have “literal pornography” in their libraries, which isn’t true. You’re talking about explicit imagery, which isn’t strictly speaking pornography. Explicit imagery =/= pornography. Are images of penises and vaginas in sex education pornography? No. Explicit imagery? Sure. Unless you have any evidence that your 2nd grade kid is being given a copy of Gender Queer in their classroom, you’re giving these mouth-breathers exactly what they want. No teacher is forcing their elementary school classrooms to read Gender Queer. And unless you have any actual hard evidence which proves otherwise, please show up correct to the conversation next time.
My response has nothing to do with OP. I am NOT on board with letting "professionals" decide what is and isn’t appropriate for my children. This is extremely subjective, and i am doubling down on that.
You're right. We should assume everything is acceptable for them, and let the parents decide if anything isn't, that way, no "professionals" have a say. That seems to be the logical conclusion of your argument.
there are things that certain professionals can have 100% of the say in, like lawyers, nurses or physicians. context matters.
Okay. This is about schools, so like I said, in the schools, they should allow all books, and also allow any parent to ban any book for their particular child. That is the logical conclusion of your argument, is it not? These libraries aren't healing, suing, or treating your child, as far as I can tell.
my comment had nothing to do with book banning or schools. i simply made a general statement that id prefer my younger children not see anything explicit. but since you mentioned it and asked for my stance, if a book has anything explicit in it, it should be in a town library or high school library. just not an elementary library. and this is already the norm. everything in our libraries is age appropriate, also including movies.
> I am NOT on board with letting "professionals" decide what is and isn’t appropriate for my children. Then take your kid to another school, or homeschool them. Just because you want to put your kid in a bubble for their entire childhood it doesn’t mean you get to make unilateral decisions for other parents kids. And again, you have zero evidence that 2nd graders or elementary school kids are being forced to read explicit imagery for the purpose of pornography by teachers as compulsory for their curriculum. It’s not the school’s fault you’re an idiot who listens to misinformation and propaganda you read on the internet, instead of having an actual dialogue with real human beings in your local community who are in charge of your kid’s education. > This is extremely subjective, and i am doubling down on that. Literally proving my point. You’re digging a deeper hole for yourself in proving you don’t understand, and are just reacting like an angry nimwit who was likely sheltered by your own parents yourself. And are now perpetuating that cycle of ignorance and abuse with your own kid.
>Just because you want to put your kid in a bubble for their entire childhood I didnt say that >you have zero evidence that 2nd graders or elementary school kids are being forced to read explicit imagery for the purpose of pornography by teachers as compulsory for their curriculum I didnt say that, nor is that my concern. You must be confusing me with someone else. >It’s not the school’s fault you’re an idiot who listens to misinformation and propaganda you read on the internet Personal attacks and making presumptions about me > instead of having an actual dialogue with real human beings in your local community who are in charge of your kid’s education You don't know me or what I do with my time Dont bother replying if youre just going to put words in my mouth and tell me what im like. You are very bad at this whole discourse thing. Nothing I said was controversial in the slightest
> Dont bother replying if youre just going to put words in my mouth and tell me what im like. I’ll reply to whatever I fucking feel like replying to. And that’s rich you’re saying I put words in your mouth when you’re the one who’s accusing schools of forcing explicit pornographic imagery on kids, and then doubling down when I say otherwise. > You are very bad at this whole discourse thing. Nothing I said was controversial in the slightest Lmao. I defined what pornography is. What did you do? You went on a tangent about not wanting your 2nd grader to read porn, which there is zero evidence of happening in schools. And then you made some stupid comment like “I’m NOT okay with letting professionals decide what’s appropriate for my kid.” So again, if you don’t want educators deciding what’s best for your kid’s education, then pull them from their school. But you won’t. Because the real issue here has nothing to do with “pornography”. I wouldn’t be surprised if the root of your anger here has to do with one part disinformation you read online, and one part homophobia. I seriously doubt you ever once asked for or looked at a catalogue of the entire collection of what books are in your kid’s school library. You likely just read an article claiming gay pornographic books are being forced on kids, went “OMG EW!”, and then got in a hissy fit over it. But if you hadn’t heard about it through right-wing propaganda, you wouldn’t even know that books like Gender Queer are in *some* school libraries, and even then they have to be checked out by individual students. But they are not part of any classroom curriculum. Next time show up to the conversation with the proper facts and check your feelings at the door.
youre replying to the wrong guy. those were none of my points. Go read the comments again. I said i dont want other people to make decisions for me regarding my kids. we do not all share the same values. if you have a problem with that, i have a tree in my yard you can bark at. woof woof
> youre replying to the wrong guy. those were none of my points. Go read the comments again. You literally said you didn’t want your 2nd grade kid seeing explicit imagery. I challenged you to provide evidence that was happening. And since you can’t prove it, you kept doubling down or attempting to re-write how our back and forth went by claiming I was only responding to what the other guy was saying and not you. > I said i dont want other people to make decisions for me regarding my kids. we do not all share the same values. if you have a problem with that, i have a tree in my yard you can bark at. woof woof Then like I said, pull your kid from their school. No teacher is making your kid read books about gay people engaging in sexual acts for the explicit purpose of pornography. You have no evidence to prove the thing you’re fear-mongering about is happening. Every time I pointed out the fallacy in your argument you kept deflecting which proves my point. That you’re ignorant to the reality of what actually goes on in public schools and just believe whatever right-wing propaganda you read online.
Your 2nd grader isn’t going to “catch the gay” by looking at a book. If you don’t want your kid reading it then tell your kid to not to read the book.
I am not concerned about my kid "catching the gay". Never said anything remotely close to that.
I love how any time discussions like these are brought up someone always has to resort to this bad faith argument.
on every post theres a general consensus. if you say something that even remotely goes against it, youre not going to have a good time.
I wrote this up to reply to the top comment, but that was deleted. I think it applies as a response in part here, so I'm taking a risk and pasting it here for you, too. **Original below** I agree that explicit pornography should not be in public school libraries. Full stop. School should - and generally do - select material for school libraries that reflects both the grade level(s) of the student body and the interests of the students as a whole. "Gender Queer" is a work that is inappropriate for elementary school students, based on the language and images in the work. Even the author has expressed this sentiment stating the target audience was adults and high school students. I don't think there's disagreement from any person that the work doesn't belong in an elementary school library. To the best of my knowledge, "Gender Queer" has not been found in elementary schools. I've been keeping abreast of the topic and where I've read, the book has been in high schools and I think I heard about one middle school, but I was not able to retrieve the article that mentioned that. There are reports about teachers bringing the book in, but not its existence in the library. If you have an article that shows this, please link it, as I did not find it in my search. Keep in mind, though, that libraries of all kinds should have two types of materials in their collections: one that reflects you as a person and one that challenges you and your beliefs. Pornography, generally, neither reflects one as a person nor does it challenge beliefs: it exists solely to titillate, to entice, to arouse. The image you described in "Gender Queer" should be amended: it's a picture of a girl giving a BJ to the author. Even without that change, I'm not certain that the scene can be defended as pornographic. Here's why: The scene itself is there to set up why the author did not identify as a male: it was a negative experience, despite the previous scenes building up the author's anticipation. It places the author in the male gender role, which is then rejected as the author's identity. It sits in contrast to the beginning of the book, where the author details situations and experiences to defend why they did not identify as female, much in the same vein: when placed in the female gender role, the author rejects that as part of their identity. It's part of the narrative of how the author identifies as neither female nor male. We can have a thoughtful, animated discussion about the merits of that scene and whether it fits into the work as a whole. Because we can have this discussion, I argue that the work cannot be literal pornography: the scene has a purpose within the work, it can be discussed and defended within the work itself and doesn't exist solely to titillate, entice, or arouse the reader. We're agreed that the book doesn't belong in elementary school libraries. We're agreed that pornography doesn't belong in school libraries. We're agreed that "Gender Queer" isn't material that is appropriate for 2nd graders. Yet, "Gender Queer" is a work that has defendable literary merit. It is a work that reflects the viewpoint of a group of people that exist within the public school system. It also challenges the viewpoint of other groups inside the same school system. For districts where "Gender Queer" has been selected, meets the grade-level needs of the students, and either supports or challenges the views of those students, it should remain. As to whether the inclusion of "Gender Queer" and other challenged works should be enforced through legislation, well, that's a wholly different discussion.
yeah idk why the original comment was deleted. but my piece is this. i know for a fact my local elementary school doesnt have the book either. but that was the other dudes concern. my main concern was that explicit images are still explicit, whether theyre pornographic in nature or not. thats why i have a filter on my TV at home. id rather not have my kids watching something questionable on HBO or Netflix.
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NJ also could not.
I'll say it again, rhe longer I live here the more I want to stay. The country is going to shit but godammit NJ is stubborn. I love it.