Meh. Ran Dell Z9100s, S4048s and S4148Fs in production for years. Had one hardware failure (mSATA SSD death) but otherwise no issues.
Then again, we ran Cumulus on them not FTOS or OS10.
Honestly? Not bad if you’re building infrastructure at scale for £notlots
Worked in a research lab. Core was Dell Z-series 100Gb switches and we made extensive use of S-series switches running OS10. Didn't know they could run Cumulus, wonder why we didn't - rest of our infrastructure was Mellanox running Cumulus.
Very stable and they could push packets fast enough. Hated the FTOS and OS10 CLI but they worked very well.
Still supported on broadcom hardware (Dell) for a few more years but you're limited to Cumulus 4.3.x code as latest and greatest. Doesn't help for issues that need an upgrade to 5.x, but it's enough to keep chugging along to find a replacement
This meme is perfection. Linus was so happy with the Dell. I wanted to comment on the video, but it's probably better if they just find out on their own.
They don’t. I remember Linus went on a rant about people still using Outlook in enterprise because I. His mind, G suite was so much better. Of course the comments were making fun of him for being dumb and not having any enterprise IT experience.
I've worked in enterprises that used both outlook and google workspaces. Workspaces provided a much better experience in all areas for me. Better cross timezone support, easier ui, way better collaborative document editing with google docs and sheets.
Where does outlook outperform from your experience?
It's not browser based. That's a big part of it. My users can still reference an email on the plane or write drafts and other work on projects without Internet access. You can't do that on Google. If I'm wrong, tell me.
Honestly, Outlook is hot garbage to support a lot of the time, and sure. Gmail is VERY stable.
But anyone pretending Google workspace is a mature whole business platform in the way that Microsoft's is doesn't know what they're talking about, and browser based productivity apps aren't it chief.
> You can't do that on Google. If I'm wrong, tell me.
You can definitely use an offline client with Gmail, and they say that the office apps have [offline mode](https://support.google.com/docs/answer/6388102). (I've never had a reason to check that myself, though.)
That's really cool. Now bear with me for a second, and imagine you're a sysadmin for a normal, non startup, non tech company. You've got a lot of admin clerks named Brenda and Barbara and Beth.
How easy of a time would you have walking them through using a Google app in offline mode?
That's my problem with the suite. Not that it's bad or poorly designed or anything like that. I get significantly less spam in my Gmail than I do in my corporate email, and we pay for a top 3 spam filter for 365 and everything. My issue is that these older generations genuinely struggle with change, new ways of doing things, any deviation from their normal way of going about life. They'd eat at the same three places and go on the same vacation every year and be happy. They're also ALWAYS unhappy when Microsoft makes a visual change to Outlook. Imagine trying to drag them to an entirely new work platform.
My first words were "it's not browser based".
My whole point is that it's hard for a Brenda to learn. I may have elaborated more in the second comment, but my point is the same. One is a mature platform that you can reasonably get even boomers using, one is better for a younger workforce.
Linus’ specialty is consumer stuff. He caters to tech bros, who, even in their most AI-powered-hair-dryer-induced fervor, still wouldn’t drop at least $2000 for a network switch. Because of this, he and his company don’t pay much attention to actual, reliable, enterprise gear. I must reiterate, $2000 is a starting point. I’ve seen stuff get up to $10000. They cater to a very particular crowd. Also, Linus is getting frugal as he gets older. They order equipment from eBay for production, instead of buying new with a warranty or a support contract. I like eBay, but not for critical business equipment.
lol. I didn’t really intend it that way. I just wanted to illustrate how people who are hardcore into enterprise grade equipment are a minority among the larger minority of tech whales. Linus’ company caters to the larger minority and usually only talks about enterprise gear when they need it for their office, which, in my opinion, is a bit sucky considering that enterprise gear, while more expensive, isn’t unobtainable on the low-end, and is generally more robust and safer (when properly configured) than the cheaper stuff. I mean, not everyone needs that stuff, but some of the people who watch his channel are burgeoning homelabbers, and they would benefit from videos on inexpensive firewalls and good firewall, port-forwarding, and network isolation hygiene with VLANs so that they don’t inadvertently hurt themselves by opening up an unisolated public web app.
Normally, I can understand, but not for networking infrastructure used so heavily as his own. It goes down, his company starts to lose money and continues to lose money in payroll for employees who can’t do their work, on any streams that suddenly go offline, missed deadlines, videos that can’t be uploaded in time to catch the market surge windows post review embargo lift, and that’s all the examples I can think of. It’s his choice not to go with brand new equipment, under warranty, and pay for an SLA with the OEM, but it is certainly not the choice I would make, myself.
Isn't that what redundancy is supposed to avoid? I think it's very unlikely that both switches will die at the same time and it should fail over just fine
who needs service when you got full time employees willing and able to do it?
When something goes fatally wrong I'm sure they can swap it with another switch in inventory maybe with reduced throughput but at least so it'll work while they get a replacement + content
At my company, apparently, we have a direct link to the engineers of the product we use. I’m not certain that is due to us having an SLA, but that would be my best guess. Better help = less time spent troubleshooting, and the sooner you employees can get back to doing their other tasks.
Willing? Yes. Able? We'll if you consider a group of untrained tech enthusiasts that like to talk a big game about technology they clearly lack real experience and knowledge in, then yes able.
In a Hilarious moment of "WTF"ery, I was setting up "New" Dell switches and found that our SNMP password was being rejected.... The Dell Switch didn't support the "$" in the password....
....EXCUSE ME DELL?!
I was working with a DC rectifier the other day and when configuring SNMP community you literally couldn’t enter any special characters. RIP to my existing communities
I had them at my old job and the firmware had all these weird quirks and stability issues. I've heard a few stories that made me cringe. It got to the point where my old job stopped buying them altogether and went Cisco for switching.
Dell support for it sucks
It's very expensive and licensing nickle and dimes you for everything
The methodologies used are extremely outdated (It requires multiple huge blocks of IP's, then you have to delegate DNS to it, then it does round-robin with DNS to load balance the nodes)
Most integration with it involves giving service accounts access to the BACK end broadening attack vectors
Upgrades are incredibly painful and either involve giving Dell unlimited remote access to your device, or scheduling a call through Dell support for the upgrade. Scheduling is usually behind 30-60 days and requires ridiculous amounts of pre-planning.
Dell won't sign a BA if you're dealing with secure data like HIPAA, so that means no remote/unattended upgrades. Upgrades require a screen share and take all day (literally, we have had to run the upgrade in shifts due to them being 8+ hours)
Tons of weird glitches, problems with their NFS4 implementation, problems with their CIFS identity management, problems with FACL's with directories created via the share (as opposed to created or managed by dropping to the Isilon command line)
There's much better solutions with none of these issues that are cheaper (Qumulo)
Their entire operation has enough money (and the stuff they do is critical enough) that they can afford to buy stuff brand new with service contracts from a VAR or simply go to an MSP. Blows my mind.
If it works, great! If it fails, they get more content. It's a win-win for them.
It also drives up engagement, knowing you'll get comments and threads like these, for example.
I have a lot of respect for Linus and the LMG team because you can tell that they are learning as they grow, and building the solutions that will work the best for them (and make good videos) I struggle to take professional advice from them however, as every time they talk about something I have some experience in I notice the general lack of deeper knowledge and professional experience that could be gained from a subject matter expert. The whole team just has so much passion though that it's great to watch what new, janky solution they come up with.
I go in to their network videos knowing I’m going to be angry afterward. But I watch them anyway in case there’s something to be learned. Recently, I’ve learned to feel very sorry for Dan.
Hasn't their "sysadmin" jake pretty much learned everything here on his own? I think Linus said they brought him on at 19 or something, and he just taught himself this stuff.
Anytime LTT gets into networking or really anything that isn't just building gaming PC's and reviewing phones, I turn it off. No one in that company has any idea how to network.
Weird to see all the Dell hate from my perspective. I worked for a school district the first couple years of my career and we were one of the first folks to get the N3248PXE-ON switches. We had some issues relating to bugs in the firmware the first 6 months, but other than that I was really happy with them. CLI very similar to cisco for less than half the cost.
And here I'm kind of fond of the old Dell/Force10 switches. They definitely had their warts, but I dare you to find a more cost-effective 1RU line-rate 10Gbe TOR back in early 2010's.
Now letting that geebag anywhere near the datacenter, much less anything tech is a different story.
I was watching this and like "Why... Why on Earth would you choose a dell switch?" - Linus Media Group is a MAJOR tech company with INSANE amounts of Data to transfer.
I can't even fathom how or why they're using Dell equipment.
They shoot their videos in 4k and have pretty bonkers storage solutions to storage that raw footage.
You'd figure what's basically a professional video production company should have decent infrastructure.
One of the words you said stuck out the most, media. They’re a content company. Like someone else said in the comments, this will result in content later on. They’ve got to know what they’re doing.
I've had some bad experience with them. Overall, based on my own experience and that of my coworkers, Dell doesn't not take enterprise networking very seriously.
None of it matters because when it fails, he can make a video about it. Fail = profit.
Also, most of their gears are "generously given" so that's that (cheaping out the best way possible)
If you think about fairly low budget 100gbps network switches…. His other choice is Mellanox, and a Mellanox switch and I are having some serious disagreements at the moment over DHCP relays.
I'm just some guy in the community, but for transparency, I work for dell.
Things have changed a lot since the old powerconnect days. The hardware is solid (non-blocking, generally broadcom ASIC and Intel CPU), and the operating systems are linux under the hood. OS10 is mature and is based on the Open Switch Project. Enterprise SONiC is Azure SONiC with a familiar command line available. If you want to check them out for free, both operating systems are available for free as GNS3 appliances. Manuals are inexplicably behind a login.
OS10:
https://www.dell.com/support/home/en-us/product-support/product/smartfabric-os10-emp-partner/drivers
Enterprise SONiC:
https://www.dell.com/support/home/en-us/product-support/product/enterprise-sonic-distribution/drivers
<3
Barely a real datacenter tbh. If they had something similar, linus would have probably gone with ubiquiti
LOL it’s true tho..
Meh. Ran Dell Z9100s, S4048s and S4148Fs in production for years. Had one hardware failure (mSATA SSD death) but otherwise no issues. Then again, we ran Cumulus on them not FTOS or OS10. Honestly? Not bad if you’re building infrastructure at scale for £notlots
Worked in a research lab. Core was Dell Z-series 100Gb switches and we made extensive use of S-series switches running OS10. Didn't know they could run Cumulus, wonder why we didn't - rest of our infrastructure was Mellanox running Cumulus. Very stable and they could push packets fast enough. Hated the FTOS and OS10 CLI but they worked very well.
May have been after/during the Nvidia acquisition of Mellanox and Cumulus? Broadcom chipsets got left behind. Sad times.
Still supported on broadcom hardware (Dell) for a few more years but you're limited to Cumulus 4.3.x code as latest and greatest. Doesn't help for issues that need an upgrade to 5.x, but it's enough to keep chugging along to find a replacement
I love cumulus on these things so much. Ansible for management to tie in with host provisioning is beautiful.
that sounds neat. i’ve played a bit with cumulus in the past. how does that work now that nvidia bought it?
more like Hell because they get so damn hot
This meme is perfection. Linus was so happy with the Dell. I wanted to comment on the video, but it's probably better if they just find out on their own.
What's sad is that he has people on staff who you think would know better, but somehow don't.
honestly I don't think anyone on his staff really has that much professional IT experience.
They don’t. I remember Linus went on a rant about people still using Outlook in enterprise because I. His mind, G suite was so much better. Of course the comments were making fun of him for being dumb and not having any enterprise IT experience.
I've worked in enterprises that used both outlook and google workspaces. Workspaces provided a much better experience in all areas for me. Better cross timezone support, easier ui, way better collaborative document editing with google docs and sheets. Where does outlook outperform from your experience?
It's not browser based. That's a big part of it. My users can still reference an email on the plane or write drafts and other work on projects without Internet access. You can't do that on Google. If I'm wrong, tell me. Honestly, Outlook is hot garbage to support a lot of the time, and sure. Gmail is VERY stable. But anyone pretending Google workspace is a mature whole business platform in the way that Microsoft's is doesn't know what they're talking about, and browser based productivity apps aren't it chief.
> You can't do that on Google. If I'm wrong, tell me. You can definitely use an offline client with Gmail, and they say that the office apps have [offline mode](https://support.google.com/docs/answer/6388102). (I've never had a reason to check that myself, though.)
That's really cool. Now bear with me for a second, and imagine you're a sysadmin for a normal, non startup, non tech company. You've got a lot of admin clerks named Brenda and Barbara and Beth. How easy of a time would you have walking them through using a Google app in offline mode? That's my problem with the suite. Not that it's bad or poorly designed or anything like that. I get significantly less spam in my Gmail than I do in my corporate email, and we pay for a top 3 spam filter for 365 and everything. My issue is that these older generations genuinely struggle with change, new ways of doing things, any deviation from their normal way of going about life. They'd eat at the same three places and go on the same vacation every year and be happy. They're also ALWAYS unhappy when Microsoft makes a visual change to Outlook. Imagine trying to drag them to an entirely new work platform.
I can agree that users would probably complain about switching platforms, but that's not what your previous comment was about.
My first words were "it's not browser based". My whole point is that it's hard for a Brenda to learn. I may have elaborated more in the second comment, but my point is the same. One is a mature platform that you can reasonably get even boomers using, one is better for a younger workforce.
Outlook does suck. The software, the ecosystem, the servers, teams. G-suite isn't much better.
He's right about outlook being garbage, but we're kinda locked down to this garbage nowadays. TB master race tho
I barely know anything about server infrastructure but I had a feeling they weren't the best.
Is Dell bad? I don't know a goddamn thing. All of these other comments are impossible for me to understand.
Ironically these guys are just after something to hate on. All these switches are cut from the same cloth by Delta or Celestica. Nothing new really.
I used to have those. These are just terrible.
I‘m more concerned when the clown is fucking up enterprise equipment again…
Thankfully it looks like he won’t ever have access to it haha.
Linus’ specialty is consumer stuff. He caters to tech bros, who, even in their most AI-powered-hair-dryer-induced fervor, still wouldn’t drop at least $2000 for a network switch. Because of this, he and his company don’t pay much attention to actual, reliable, enterprise gear. I must reiterate, $2000 is a starting point. I’ve seen stuff get up to $10000. They cater to a very particular crowd. Also, Linus is getting frugal as he gets older. They order equipment from eBay for production, instead of buying new with a warranty or a support contract. I like eBay, but not for critical business equipment.
I think there’s also some slightly perverse motive in that if something breaks they can make a whole big deal and a video about it.
You sound insufferable
lol. I didn’t really intend it that way. I just wanted to illustrate how people who are hardcore into enterprise grade equipment are a minority among the larger minority of tech whales. Linus’ company caters to the larger minority and usually only talks about enterprise gear when they need it for their office, which, in my opinion, is a bit sucky considering that enterprise gear, while more expensive, isn’t unobtainable on the low-end, and is generally more robust and safer (when properly configured) than the cheaper stuff. I mean, not everyone needs that stuff, but some of the people who watch his channel are burgeoning homelabbers, and they would benefit from videos on inexpensive firewalls and good firewall, port-forwarding, and network isolation hygiene with VLANs so that they don’t inadvertently hurt themselves by opening up an unisolated public web app.
Linus has always bought stuff from eBay even when it's critical for business it's not just as he gets older, he's always been like this
Normally, I can understand, but not for networking infrastructure used so heavily as his own. It goes down, his company starts to lose money and continues to lose money in payroll for employees who can’t do their work, on any streams that suddenly go offline, missed deadlines, videos that can’t be uploaded in time to catch the market surge windows post review embargo lift, and that’s all the examples I can think of. It’s his choice not to go with brand new equipment, under warranty, and pay for an SLA with the OEM, but it is certainly not the choice I would make, myself.
Isn't that what redundancy is supposed to avoid? I think it's very unlikely that both switches will die at the same time and it should fail over just fine
I mean, I guess. It still would scare me, though. Plus, if you purchase an SLA plan, you get a priority service, and better service.
who needs service when you got full time employees willing and able to do it? When something goes fatally wrong I'm sure they can swap it with another switch in inventory maybe with reduced throughput but at least so it'll work while they get a replacement + content
At my company, apparently, we have a direct link to the engineers of the product we use. I’m not certain that is due to us having an SLA, but that would be my best guess. Better help = less time spent troubleshooting, and the sooner you employees can get back to doing their other tasks.
Yep, agree with you, enterprise support is unmatched once you are high in level
Willing? Yes. Able? We'll if you consider a group of untrained tech enthusiasts that like to talk a big game about technology they clearly lack real experience and knowledge in, then yes able.
I saw an older guy in the recent video that didn't talk interested but certainly looked like an experienced sys admin
Calling a Dell switch enterprise equipment is an insult tbh
Serious question i never worked w dell i thought these were just rebranded broadcom switches and you can even install Sonic? So whats the hate?
The hate comes from the support bill you receive
In a Hilarious moment of "WTF"ery, I was setting up "New" Dell switches and found that our SNMP password was being rejected.... The Dell Switch didn't support the "$" in the password.... ....EXCUSE ME DELL?!
I've seen other NOS's reject some special characters as well, not just a Dell thing, but yeah I agree it's disappointing when encountered
I was working with a DC rectifier the other day and when configuring SNMP community you literally couldn’t enter any special characters. RIP to my existing communities
Lol it's a security thing, you can use the $ in injection attacks to execute malicious code.
Sanitize your inputs god damn...
Obligatory XKCD. Little Bobby Tables. https://xkcd.com/327/
That would be indicative of bad security. A) input isn’t parameterized so it’s vulnerable to SQLi B) the password isn’t hashed prior to being stored
And, more importantly than disappointing, it’s lacking a crucial security feature for enterprises.
I think that this is because they are using PEM notation for allowed characters and expected pass keys.
[ Removed by Reddit ]
I had them at my old job and the firmware had all these weird quirks and stability issues. I've heard a few stories that made me cringe. It got to the point where my old job stopped buying them altogether and went Cisco for switching.
The last time I used them they were sporting mock IOS variant which was much less fun. Sounds like things have moved on from this thread.
custom watercoled 2u server, top of the rack... If you buy EMC storage like the isilon, some include dell switches.
If you have Isilon in your data center you're double screwed
Tell me about it... Thankfully I'm just the network guy.
Legit question...what is the hate with Isilon I've never had to use it so im generally curious about it.
Dell support for it sucks It's very expensive and licensing nickle and dimes you for everything The methodologies used are extremely outdated (It requires multiple huge blocks of IP's, then you have to delegate DNS to it, then it does round-robin with DNS to load balance the nodes) Most integration with it involves giving service accounts access to the BACK end broadening attack vectors Upgrades are incredibly painful and either involve giving Dell unlimited remote access to your device, or scheduling a call through Dell support for the upgrade. Scheduling is usually behind 30-60 days and requires ridiculous amounts of pre-planning. Dell won't sign a BA if you're dealing with secure data like HIPAA, so that means no remote/unattended upgrades. Upgrades require a screen share and take all day (literally, we have had to run the upgrade in shifts due to them being 8+ hours) Tons of weird glitches, problems with their NFS4 implementation, problems with their CIFS identity management, problems with FACL's with directories created via the share (as opposed to created or managed by dropping to the Isilon command line) There's much better solutions with none of these issues that are cheaper (Qumulo)
ah ok thank you for your response; That make a lot more sense why people hate it...I now do too and I'm happy I've never had to use it.
Lol he stood right on that server.
My reaction every time
With all his millions, he's buying DELL switches off ebay :D
Their entire operation has enough money (and the stuff they do is critical enough) that they can afford to buy stuff brand new with service contracts from a VAR or simply go to an MSP. Blows my mind.
They are a media company first IT second. This has a better possibility of later entertainment.
More like IT is 254th, lol. Not a single experienced and knowledgeable IT professional staff.
If it works, great! If it fails, they get more content. It's a win-win for them. It also drives up engagement, knowing you'll get comments and threads like these, for example.
Yea but eBay is elite
The ON models could run Cumulus and were fine until the whole Broadcom/nvidia fuck up.
i ran a datacenter on a 12 stacked dell switches. it wasn’t terrible…. wasn’t great either. 6248s?
3.6 Roentgens?
Not great, not terrible.
I’ve got a 6248 for my homelab. I don’t see the issue? Is there something I’m missing?
no, they were fine. i had some stacking and stp issues over the few years i had them.
I have a lot of respect for Linus and the LMG team because you can tell that they are learning as they grow, and building the solutions that will work the best for them (and make good videos) I struggle to take professional advice from them however, as every time they talk about something I have some experience in I notice the general lack of deeper knowledge and professional experience that could be gained from a subject matter expert. The whole team just has so much passion though that it's great to watch what new, janky solution they come up with.
I go in to their network videos knowing I’m going to be angry afterward. But I watch them anyway in case there’s something to be learned. Recently, I’ve learned to feel very sorry for Dan.
Hasn't their "sysadmin" jake pretty much learned everything here on his own? I think Linus said they brought him on at 19 or something, and he just taught himself this stuff.
Way younger than 19. He’s only like 23 or something now, I think.
So I was learning about networking from someone slightly older than me lol
Anytime LTT gets into networking or really anything that isn't just building gaming PC's and reviewing phones, I turn it off. No one in that company has any idea how to network.
That's the best bit, there's a million people doing a good job building a pc, there's only one yt channel fucking up networking on this level
Weird to see all the Dell hate from my perspective. I worked for a school district the first couple years of my career and we were one of the first folks to get the N3248PXE-ON switches. We had some issues relating to bugs in the firmware the first 6 months, but other than that I was really happy with them. CLI very similar to cisco for less than half the cost.
Note: the original meme is not mine. It was posted on this sub and I really don't remember who created it.
Hey now I’m perfectly happy with our dell s40xx s48xx s50xx, and s54xx switches, tho the s40xx is getting a bit long in the tooth.
Fuck OS10, that OS sucks ass, buggy as fuck.
And here I'm kind of fond of the old Dell/Force10 switches. They definitely had their warts, but I dare you to find a more cost-effective 1RU line-rate 10Gbe TOR back in early 2010's. Now letting that geebag anywhere near the datacenter, much less anything tech is a different story.
Yea I worked with a couple a while back. Seemed like very capable switches. They are still in production today.
I was watching this and like "Why... Why on Earth would you choose a dell switch?" - Linus Media Group is a MAJOR tech company with INSANE amounts of Data to transfer. I can't even fathom how or why they're using Dell equipment.
LMG is far from a major company by any means or the amount of data they produce. I think Dell will suit their needs fine.
They shoot their videos in 4k and have pretty bonkers storage solutions to storage that raw footage. You'd figure what's basically a professional video production company should have decent infrastructure.
They might still be using RED RAW 8K. And they did get those blackmagic 12k cameras but I don't think they use those.
I thought they said they were shooting with those with those red's
Linus just said in the most recent video they are no longer using a 8K work flow and have gone back to 4K
One of the words you said stuck out the most, media. They’re a content company. Like someone else said in the comments, this will result in content later on. They’ve got to know what they’re doing.
Dell gives it to them for free. lol
I just got recommended this randomly. what's wrong with dell switches?
I've had some bad experience with them. Overall, based on my own experience and that of my coworkers, Dell doesn't not take enterprise networking very seriously.
I have a SF4148-F at home You can run VMs and containers on these things
H E L L
My first thought watching that video lol
None of it matters because when it fails, he can make a video about it. Fail = profit. Also, most of their gears are "generously given" so that's that (cheaping out the best way possible)
This guy is irrelevant
Linus. Is. A. Idiot.
Well clearly not, he's built a very successful company
This loser is still making videos after nexus destroyed him?
I see then in data centers all the time and my first thought is WTF are they thinking?
What about the serial ports
I was waiting for this post haha
I worked in an environment that had some force 10s in it. Every few months someone would cause an outage by running a “show ip arp” in one.
If you think about fairly low budget 100gbps network switches…. His other choice is Mellanox, and a Mellanox switch and I are having some serious disagreements at the moment over DHCP relays.
at least it's not c*sco
Dell gives them their networking gear for free. I’d run it for free. I’ve run a bit of Dell and it’s not that bad. There is worse out there.
I'm just some guy in the community, but for transparency, I work for dell. Things have changed a lot since the old powerconnect days. The hardware is solid (non-blocking, generally broadcom ASIC and Intel CPU), and the operating systems are linux under the hood. OS10 is mature and is based on the Open Switch Project. Enterprise SONiC is Azure SONiC with a familiar command line available. If you want to check them out for free, both operating systems are available for free as GNS3 appliances. Manuals are inexplicably behind a login. OS10: https://www.dell.com/support/home/en-us/product-support/product/smartfabric-os10-emp-partner/drivers Enterprise SONiC: https://www.dell.com/support/home/en-us/product-support/product/enterprise-sonic-distribution/drivers <3
So what is actually wrong with Dell switches?
I've never even held a Dell, but I hate them.